ZKPodcast: BlockchainUX & the UXUnconference

Transcript

[Music] welcome to zero knowledge a podcast where we explore the latest in blockchain technology and the decentralized web the show is hosted by me Anna and me Fredrik [Music] in this episode we share some insights from the folks who went to the UX on conference this week in Toronto so we're here in Toronto that's how you say it as

a Canadian Toronto Toronto right now I'm sitting with Frederick and I'm sitting with machi Hey nice to be here always a pleasure yeah I'm not she's been on our podcast before some time ago we were here in Toronto because I think mainly because of IDI Khan so ed Khan was happening I was pretty cool as there are some events around it some before or some after this episode is actually gonna be focusing on event that happened post ed con it was called the web 3 UX unconference and this was a very different kind of conference this wasn't sort of sitting and watching panels it was a really engaged workshop style roundtable with a smaller group but a high quality of

people there it was really great I thought yeah and just like it's basically all the people that are working on the UX problems of the space then there are plenty of them and you know in the interviews coming I am sure will dig into some of those problems but like its madam asked my crypto and like all the big players who are working like dealing with users just trying to make this something that is usable by you know normal people and and who just like are interested in using the technology which is you know something that isn't really seen all that much like it's the space is very much still in this land of like by developers for developers kind

of feeling and like traders have come in and sort of made like they have completely different requirements and different sort of attitudes to things as well so I think that just normal user experience doesn't get enough attention yeah yeah totally so so the unconference is very necessary thing and the UX in general is like this child that's like been left over left on the sides when we are talking about crypto like everyone cares about scaling and charting and security and all this other stuff but is really important and kind of like leaves the the actual like human interaction of this stuff in the

shadows and and you know we should actually look at it because this technology is can I guess let's say people don't use it right so this is sort of an interesting episode we're gonna be doing it a little bit different what we what we ended up doing is we interviewed a bunch of people who came to the event and we asked them a small selection of questions I asked actually the same questions to everybody and what we're gonna do is cut together a little bit of a highlight of some of the answers that we got from these participants yeah and this is sort of the first of its kind on this podcast that we're trying to do kind of an event podcast so yeah I hope it I hope it makes sense and brings some insight into

what we actually talked about so here we go name is Dan Sui I run kyogen we're a software engineering consultancy that is based in San Francisco Bay Area we run a remote first distributed engineering team that builds products services and implements protocols for public chains dan you were part of you actually helped put this event together can you tell me a little bit about how it came to be plasma researcher David not is basically the inspiration for this event I hunt with him in Bangkok after an eth Bangkok me up and we discussed their

ongoing work on the plasma SDK and how challenging it was going to be for them to talk to the other wallet teams and integrates like they're scaling solution with existing users and could kind of give you the other side of the of the problem like we worked very closely with meta mass team and interact with my crypto team scaling solutions like plasma are very far down their roadmap because there's so many real user problems that need to be solved so the point of this unconference is to allow these teams to meet and discuss and share ideas and work in person without all of the overhead of the standard like like

channels and setting up meetings you know and what's what's sort of different about this event what's different about this event is that it maximizes for global value to the space versus all the other things that you could maximize for when you're planning an event we're not trying to pump a project or like participate in any ICO nonsense the filter for people to attend this event were individuals that were working full-time on products with real users in the space so the participants of this event like the value that they get out of it will translate directly to value to real users that are that are transacting and they're like we've sort

of not added any other complexity to it what do you think we can learn from web 2.0 as an entrepreneur the most important thing I think that we can learn from web 2.0 is that in order to get to web 2.0 there was a nuclear winter during which you couldn't get a u-haul out of San Francisco because of they weren't coming back and the projects that are currently working in the space some of them have a hint of this in just a macroeconomic sense they know that there are bubbles but most of them either haven't lived it or haven't read about it or really like felt that and like learning that firsthand I think is going to be mark of maturity what is an exciting new idea in UX a project or

paradigm that you've recently seen so I was kind of busy and I wasn't able to watch all the talks but I heard and like from the other attendees that there was there was a there were a few talks about multi signing and using account abstraction to basically like generate device specific keys and like like I like the way that the presenter phrased it which was like I'm basically tricking users into using a multi-sig let's do more of that I think that's that's really exciting and I think that as that infrastructure gets built there's the second-order effect of like people have better and more ideas and they'll and they'll tweak the flows and it'll just be just be good times so do

you want to just introduce yourself in one sentence I'm Philip and I am a freelancer for smart contract development on a theory I used to work for Xerox for about six months later and then I started in January to to act more as a freelancer what are your thoughts on the current state of UX there's definitely a lot of pain points and I think it's if we don't necessarily realize it when we're so used to being in a blockchain space and you know I I think the most obvious one is paying for every transaction to me does that's probably the worst user experience what do you think the biggest mistake in UX in blockchain has been at least from the etherium in the world of etherium the

main UX problem that I've seen is that every action on a blockchain requires a transaction and what I mean by this is if you take the standard er C 20 standard which is how token operates on most of tokens are on aetherium if you want people to transfer funds from your account to somewhere else or it could be a smart contract if you want a smart contract give permission to smart account to transfer some of your tokens to another tokens which is necessary for example for decentralized exchanges and other things like that it's required first to approve the contract and then secondly the contract has to withdraw but there's other way of doing it where you don't need to transaction or minimums to transaction you can you could for example sign a

message saying this contract is able to withdraw my funds or this amount of funds and that reduce the amount of transaction required by half and there's a lot of instances where people really should utilize off chain solution in center launching solution I think in the last six months I've seen a lot of people starting to realize that most of what they're trying to implement can be done without interacting with the blockchain by just having these kind of off chain solutions and I think that's really like from a user perspective it's much better because you have much less transaction much less and reduce the load on the network as well so it is better for everyone what is an exciting new idea in UX a project or new paradigm I think part of the talks and

discussions everything regarding making key management more efficient so not having to care as much as your private key not having to have to be still able to interact with the blockchain without having funds I think there has been a lot of discussion around this at ed con and at this unconference UX on conference and I think this is a huge change in paradigm that we're gonna see in the next year for for the theory and community where you know the users can still interact with the blockchain without having any crypt cryptocurrencies or they could still they could still lose their private key and have a mean to recover it or they could you know have these all these extra security layers that most regular user in the real world outside world are

expecting to have when they have an account having one account for Twitter be it you log in on your phone bit you log it on on your your laptop I think people expect that and I think there's a lot of ideas around this that are coming that will make it easier what did you think about this event I'm not a UX designer at all as I said I'm fully back-end and for me it was really interesting to see like the discussion around the UX and the kind of problems people are struggling because a lot of the times I didn't realize that some of the solution that we like gives a better user experience are actually coming from the people that are more technical and more deeper in the protocol that some solutions are more technical than designed or like how to show this

information can actually lead to significant user experience and talking to other people made me realize that yeah actually there's a lot of there's a lot of room for anyone to participate in improve the user experience not just the people that design the interface that the user interact with I'm Alec Fonda Thunder I've been working on the Tyrian foundation since 2014 and I lead the tearoom wallet and the mist browser project last year I was deeply involved in launching ENF and this year I've been involved in making multiple year see discussions how do you feel about the event so far I really like the format of a roundtable discussion this sort of event make the roundtable discussions the most

important thing and because they are very focused and they have all the main of the main players of of the ecosystem they are together they are very interested in interacting and finding solutions together it easily is very productive last year we have a very similar format on DNS discussions and it was very very good and very productive if you were to pick one you expain point in blockchain what would that be so one of the things we often underestimate if the effect of how you got in this system right so the way you got into the system really affects how you behave and how

you think and why you do it and one of the things that you need to do in order to do to execute anything on on like on the TV ecosystem is indeed to have eater and the only place you can get eater is vien exchange or buying it somehow so we might think whenever you are building an app you might think that you're onboarding process starts when they download the airport when they go to your site but that's not true the real entrances in this ecosystem are exchanges those are exchanges that we asked for a ton of personal information

that we require a lot of documentation and work and will not accept credit cards and then the filter out a lot of people that are are just barely interested in the topic and they they heavily bias people who are into it for investment or trading and things like that right so I think it's really the ecosystem here's an example the way it changes the ecosystem can be seen things like the apps one of the reason probably that a lot of apps are related to flipping and

trading and things like that it's probably because the people who are able to do those apps are people who came into the ecosystem because they wanted to flip tokens and now suddenly they find the opportunity to flip cats or flip robots or flip just vehicle nonsense because if they find that to be fun and I think one of the things we really really really need to do to solve that onboarding process is really solve how you get your first going or how you get how you earn your first coin or maybe how you can interact it without having to earn any coin at all what do you think in terms of UX was the biggest

mistake or direction that was taken specifically in blockchain I don't think there was any big decision that was made that was a mistake in the sense and we can't fix it right I really think that there we are so early in the space that we really can fix most of those stuff I would I would say just also because that's what I've been talking to everyone here is that I think one of the things that we should we should do differently from now on is that we shouldn't treat private keys the thing that identify you right and the thing that you you used to login into things and the thing that and and now so the

same place you keep tokens and funds in my opinion we should just stop putting each other stop putting tokens into accounts right don't store funds using private keys you should we should use those private keys as just authorization tokens where you can sign messages and then send it to a contract which can be done in a much better way with a lot more Recovery Options which a lot more with a lot more creative options and that contract can be controlled by that private key but the private key itself too songs should be something that if you lose it it's not a problem right and and that's because by focusing on only this

idea where you keep private keys and then you put money on it that's how you get to like eighty million dollar hard drive that is lost in a dumpster right or or a lot of similar stories like this we should private key private he should not be to store funds in my opinion what are your last thoughts you X blockchain this event one of the interesting things I've noticed is that like last year we had like the eighth ICO craze right and that was heavily criticized and I and I agree that we we've some projects have gone too far and there are a lot of projects that's raised too much money and that's bad but in the other hand a

few projects that did raise tons of money are suddenly like now another level right if you take a look at for what Aragon is doing or what state is doing do you're not playing around anymore right the level that you're playing it really doesn't feel like this hobby thing that we've been doing a few years ago like just two years ago everyone was just in it together for like hobby and fun etc and suddenly now they have like a lot of designers and usability studies and user testing and good typography and a lot of things like that that really showed that we are playing the big

leagues now and I think that's super exciting right it shows that yes there was some access last year but that doesn't mean that everything oh I feel with was failed and I think some people who have a lot of money are doing some very good things with it and I think that's fantastic saying like even in like the user experience point of view I'm Johnny Howell I'm the lead product designer at you port you port is a spoke or a start-up I guess at consensus when consensus is an aetherium venture studio what UX mistake do you think has already kind of been made like in terms of a paradigm that everybody's using our sort of language

that everybody's using like what is a mistake with today's system private key management is one transactions and understanding the concept of gas is second there's some people working on whether or not we should just abstract gas away from certain users so maybe that won't to be a problem very much longer another pain point is language I think Andreas Antonopoulos speaks a lot about this when he gets a UX question and it's this idea that wallets don't actually function like wallets coins don't actually function like coins gas kind of functions like gas but obviously the metaphor isn't one-to-one I guess that's why it's a metaphor but there's a

number of language issues smart contracts really are just programs accounts and identities are our words that don't really map on to what's happening either I mean contracts and entities and programs can have identities - that are the same as identities for people if you could pick one pain point that you think is like the main pain point I know there's a couple what would that be I think the obvious one is the reliance on seed phrases and physical pieces of paper ultimately that is just an untenable state of affairs what our

previous experiments or research doesn't have to actually be in blockchain it could be in anything that you think we could use as we build out new UX the web 3 if we move pre-internet there are a lot of things especially dealing with identity that I'm thinking about and actually just strip away the technology and just think about information hierarchy and how people read essentially and thinking about things like voting ballots social security forms your i9 a lot of these governmental documents and tax forms I think that these are notoriously bad I think there are

however some use cases out there from some certain more progressive countries that have done way better jobs of simplifying these things and actually set designer to the task of reimagining some of these experiences even though they're not digital and I think that that could be useful to look and see what worked there in terms of how do we structure information hierarchies in these highly technical situations where at the end of the day the user does need to get through all of the steps and implement an input all of the information but it can be painful but

and maybe it's going to be painful it's a matter of how how much can we lessen the pain and I think yeah I think maybe looking at the pre-internet communities could be interesting what is an exciting new idea in you axe a project or new paradigm that you've recently learned about maybe even at this event the thing I've been thinking about is non fungible tokens and I think of again you know it's one of the most prevalent examples of anything in this space but it's crypto kitties and crypto kitties designed a system in which you could generate from a number of attributes that were pre-designed you get a

coherent kitty at the end but the designer who designed this system obviously wasn't able to pre design or validate every iteration of cat so I think I wonder about generative assets in the future and how to think about designing all of the pieces that come together to create the final asset so in a way it's kind of like a design system but as a design system for the pieces that create your generative asset to make sure that it always produces something worth having can you introduce yourself hi my name is Dan Finley I'm one of the lead developers and kind of

proud lead on meta mask which is a browser extension that lets you use aetherium applications on the web and it's been pretty popular in the last year and a lot of different kinds of aetherium based applications have built their interfaces compatible with our interface and so it's been a really fun year and so we've had a lot of kind of the the first experience of what it's like to provide a user experience for people interacting with blockchain applications right before it was all just sending money around now we're seeing what it's like to just just do anything right and it's a very open-ended problem and so it's it's been quite a quite a thing to think about how do you like the event so far we've actually wanted to have this for a long time you know one of the

earliest aetherium wallet developers and we were a pretty small community and we've wanted to get together and have like wallet con for a long time because we just have a lot of woes in common I mean when there's a big crisis on the network like people may be like oh the network's out whatever but they are all just ragging on us like they are all they're emailing us they're bombing us it's a very abusive environment at times you know we've since staffed up we have a strong support teams now we have stronger knowledge bases but like when this thing kicked off when when the ICO craze started in last June or July like it it hit us it totally blindsided us we did not know how fast or hard it was going to come and so so coming together and and talking about the the issues that we're

hitting what are the things that are holding users back the things that are confusing them pain points and the things that are giving us friction are it's just invaluable time to spend together and it's such a niche part of the blockchain community that yeah that's why it took so long to do you know so what are your thoughts about the current state of UX in the blockchain the current state of UX on the blockchain is a Minimum Viable Product it is a beta it is janky we slapped it together you know most of the stuff that's working you know is based there's parts of our code base that is years old and we are we've been like scratching it how to answer some of these really hard problems that have held people back and the whole time there have been basic

questions because people come in here and they try to send a transaction and they're like what is this like what's gas what's up knots what is a what is ether what is what is this why do I have this funny money you know and and then what's that data at the and then why are all these random characters everywhere you know it's just like completely incomprehensible I'm amazed that normal people have put up with the way it is so far but I think it's the token mania the the kind of a prospect of easy riches that has kept people so pernicious to various degrees of success if you were to pick one what is the ultimate pain point what is the biggest pain point right now in UX the thing that I'm taking away from this event

right now the one pain point that I think that we're all having in common and that I think we need to coordinate to solve is how to comprehensively review transactions that are being signed and in fact out of this event I I think I've really completely now broken the line between a signature and a transaction they're all signatures they're all just kinds of signatures and the question is just what is the signature do and how can we agree on what a given type of signature is going to do they're all just user actions which are all just intentions and the thing that is breaking up a lot of our community at times is we'll implement different signature methods and they'll be incompatible and then like you know people have proposals but then they change and like we can't just stay on

the same page and hey it's a coordination game like maybe the blockchain can help what was the mistake what was a mistake that you would say was taken kind of early on you ex-vice that we're now dealing with and it's not that it's not fixable it could be fixable but is there something you think sort of that a wrong path was taken so the security of the blockchain completely depends on being able to hold a secret in a computer you trust and early on people were not used to that pattern and they just kept on putting their private keys into places as it didn't belong and we're just gradually and gradually nudging them safer and safer places we're just like like oh yeah maybe maybe in the command-line it can just Auto sign and they're like oh no that's not good maybe

I can just paste it in this browser oh no they'll just steal it a DNS hacker now I go well maybe I can just you know I do this with it I mean so now I'm making meta masks now maybe it's a new browser extension we don't get hacked like I haven't heard of users say they get hacked but you know if a user got compromised if their computer got hacked then they could lose their accounts so now you know we've also got hardware accounts and you know the parodies got their signer and so we're just moving the keys further and further out basically it's all just a series of mistakes until you really really have your keys somewhere you can trust and we're just gonna keep on making mistakes until we like make that easy for everybody what's a really exciting idea project or new paradigm

that you're seeing in blockchain UX thanks to some really great development in a smart contract account design we're seeing a lot of new ideas around how people can basically get into the etherium ecosystem or other any blockchain basically with lower friction without maybe seed phrases without accounts inviting friends you know models where we basically just start leveling out that adoption and adoption is like currently a really huge pain so so all these all these new novel ways of managing your account and getting in easy and having safer recovery like they're really exciting it's I think it's gonna massively improve the usability of the whole thing so what are your last thoughts on UX blockchain or

this event ok so so so here I go here's here's the crazy idea I had today ok basically if we get the developers of all these different wallets to have some tokens and then they can use those to vote together to on a shared registry of signer modules then we can stop worrying about developing the interface for approving signatures so like today whenever there's a new signature type or if somebody wants to add plasma network if they want to add a state channel support or if they want to add counterfactual state channels they they have to like pull request meta mask and I have to be like Oh add support for a thing and then we have to go into research into design mode and you know and then everyone's like oh you take forever to make things and we're like well yeah well we're bottlenecks you

know why don't you help meanwhile every single client of designer is doing the exact same thing we're all reproducing approval flows and implementations for every single signature method so the idea it's basically a token created registry of wallet devs to coordinate around the problem of curating a set of signature methods their implementations a little test case and an approval screen and it you can make it in a general enough way you know like obviously you needed to be portable across platforms and I know they vary a lot you know it could be meta mass could be your phone it could be a little hardware wallet but if you make it general enough then many clients could benefit from the same registry and we could just have consistent implementations and you and suddenly people could add new networks and we

could be talking between each other and people wouldn't have to come down beating down my door to add their pull request so you're basically talking about a token carried registry that would help to standardize in a way like across many different groups yeah how things are being built yeah I'll be honest I I don't I don't follow the token curated seen as as tightly as I probably should I have some friends that are very into it but the general notion is that if the token holders can propose something to be added to a set and if they if the other token holders say it was malicious then they slash that person's deposit and they like lose funds and so it's just a way it's just like a coordination game for like agreeing on a set of things so you know I don't know how I feel about like

slashing funds just for a bad proposal like I you know the if we were gonna use it for interfaces we would probably want to tune it make it gentler have a rejection and review process you know because we're not trying to kick people out you know we want to encourage iteration but you know if we're if we replace these signature methods which have like such absolute names like eath sign if we replace that with just like an address of a signature method suddenly implementation becomes a much more casual thing you know it's not like oh this is the end-all be-all of signature types this is like this is the signature type I use in my smart contract you know and it lets signers become much more versatile and open-ended thanks so much for the interview cool yeah it was my pleasure hi my name is Richard Burton and I'm working on a

project called balance the domain name for it is balance dough we've just released a project called manager which helps you to manage your existing wallets and we'll be releasing a mobile wallet later this year so thinking about UX today what are your thoughts where do you think we're at yeah I think I try to focus on the numbers so that we can just have a like a very easy discussion about the realities of where we're at and I think we have around 30 million speculators and the crypto assets and as far as I can see a roughly 30,000 daily active users or distributed applications and in the kind of hierarchy of people who are down the rabbit hole that is to say that the top of the rabbit hole is quite wide in terms of people are beginning to enter

the space and understand the owning these crypto assets is of some interest to them but very very few people are actually using them on a daily basis for any value so I think that's the number we ought to pay attention to as a community is how many people on a daily basis are getting some benefit from a cryptographically powered application or net running on a protocol what do you think right now is the biggest UX pain point in the blockchain space I think that the biggest myth that we have got ingrained in nearly all of our minds is that usability and security are opposite ends of a spectrum I think that it's extremely hard to bring them together but it's not impossible and so the

biggest issue we have is key recovery we're right now on one end of the spectrum you can either use a great service like coinbase where you give up access to your private keys and in return you kind of pay fees as you use the product and they kind of invest in amazing security engineers or you can kind of go to the other end of the spectrum where you learn about key management you buy a crypto steal our hardware wallets and and you start to become extremely paranoid and use air-gap devices and there are all these things which won't appeal to the masses what do you think could really help to push the user experience in blockchain forward one of the things I think that is really useful is to just take the existing mental models that people already have and try and slide our

protocols into them and so to take a concrete example there is not a bank in the world that asks you to install a Chrome extension so there's idea of money and the storage of value and anything like that no one uses a Chrome extension I think meta mask is a wonderful project and is it kind of weaves together the Internet and the interchain and you know kind of Link's these things that weren't previously linked but it's not a mental model that people are familiar with and so our solution to this is not novel or special it's to merely take an existing model which is what saps a login model where the kind of the center of the world is the phone and the web app is a kind of satellite and you use a QR code to

establish a connection between the mobile app and the and the web app and then those two things can communicate and this is a very simple protocol we created anyways it's called wallet connect and we think the user experience is just fantastic and that's the way it should go and and a lot of people are very comfortable with doing something on the web and confirming it on their phone whether it's authenticating with Google auth or doing a bank transaction and then confirming it in their bank's app so we think that and we pay careful attention to any mental models from a user experience perspective that are already there that we can kind of just slide into so that we don't have to teach people new patterns so what is an exciting new idea that you've either

seen today or generally in UX what are you getting excited about yeah I'm incredibly excited by Alex van der sans work to pull together a bunch of different ideas about how to improve wallet security and usability into this kind of single concept he's been collaborating with the team of status who are fantastic and they've come up with this notion of a kind of smart contract almost storage space for your funds that will be described and linked to by an ethereal name service domain so for example balance might instantiate the kind of Rick Burton balance wallet eath and and then this

this kind of base for my funds would then be authenticated against my browser in my desktop my browser on my laptop my browser on my on my phone my browser on my spare phone and then I could also kind of specify a custodian who I trust to get me back in or a friend I trust to get me back in and essentially that the hub of your funds lives on aetherium and the ways to sign transactions and kind of initiate them are all kind of the satellites to your existing work and this is amazing because then you can introduce all kinds of clever logics such as if I'm spending one either day just verify on the device itself if I'm spending 10 e

then make sure to factor if I'm sending all my funds at once it's gotta be triple factored in like my dad's got a sign off on it and I'm like I just think this is genius and we're gonna spend an awful lot of time trying to work with them and try and implement this in the balance products so yeah can you introduce yourself yeah sure my name is Brian Eisenbach I'm from Connecticut in the United States and got in the space a little last year I used to work as a flight software developer and got in the space because I saw the need for my particular skill set and trying to apply it to smart contract development specifically so I do a little bit of contracting I have a

community in my own state in I just we have this project for smart contract development guidelines that just got a little bit of a theory and Foundation funding and we're looking forward to working on that with some some partners in the space so what is your what are your thoughts about the current state of UX in blockchain I saw on three separate occasions I was about 15 seconds away from sending my ether to a scam address so I think that kind of speaks for itself in a little ways what do you think is the biggest pain point I think the biggest pain point is of for UX in

particular so I think it's just such a new paradigm that it's it's hard to identify all the things that are actually really really different in how this technology operates and you know it's mostly developers that we work with at this point as far as that makers so it's kind of hard to gauge whether something is truly obtuse or just technically complicated what do you think we could actually learn from web 2.0 so the past 10 years a lot of app you know web 2.0 classical application

developers have learned a lot about how to design very clear interactive user interfaces and I actually see that as being a really good thing for this base because we can directly leverage that experience most of what aetherium and in decentralizing blockchain technologies to use all the buzzwords is about the backend experience really so it's really it's really a set of technologies made for engineers it's not quite made for people but it enables people to do really cool things what would you describe as the biggest sort of UX mistake that you've seen in this space I think a lot of

people are learning as they go and most most maybe maybe most of the UX mistakes I see being made as something being a little too complicated or not well explained I think the work that Eragon presented at the conference about adding in into like the comments of the code you create like different user messages and stuff like you kind of baked it into the protocol layer all the different documentation messaging that you give to users I think that's really interesting what are the previous experiments or research maybe from different fields that you think we could look to in order to push the UX in this pace forward I

just think in general not forgetting about like all the work that has been done you know Twitter and Facebook and stuff they spend many years optimizing their their craft in their applications and a lot of it is shared open source which is really cool of them so you know don't don't forget about that I'm not sure if UX in particular is being shared but it's a great thing about UX is you can't hide it it's literally how you interact with the thing so just use as good examples of what to do what not to do so what is an exciting new idea a project or new paradigm that you've seen in the space so a password list authentication that's something that's never really existed before and that's super cool to me we can we can get rid

of the password problem I just not in the first place it all becomes device-specific authentication keys and that you will authorize access to in order to gain access to an application you don't have to remember passwords no one does anyways the system is broken so let's fix it do you have any last thoughts that you want to share about UX and blockchain I think this is one of the fundamental problems of the space that we'll need to get solved before we're able to convince other people to adopt us and there's so many different problems that even the regular web space never had to deal with before because

now are including money into our applications that is going to be it's going to take a lot of effort to overcome so that is a bit of a sort of a look at some of the interviews that I got to do while we were at the at the UX uncomf and yeah it was pretty cool to get a chance to speak to these people I felt like I mean there's a there was a lot of people there that we didn't get a chance to talk to I really wish we had had a chance to speak to the mic crypto people but they left before I could grab them maybe we can get them on another day but I think the way I'd like to actually wrap up this episode is why don't we also share our final thoughts

so maybe Fredrik do you want to start sure I think what's been really interesting in hearing everyone talking and being at this thing is that there really is a general consensus around the UX problems and that that there are problems that there isn't enough effort and money being spent on you know just designers product people did all the sort of efforts that go into making a good user experience and there was super interesting takeaways or around like how you do account management and like key management so Alex Manderson had a really great talk on you know being able to distribute your

turkeys and having multiple accounts and like super creative ways of basically having zero ether accounts and then have some other account pay for gas so that you can like distribute out in identities in a cool way and like for me like that's a deeply like technical interesting solution to what is fundamentally a UX problem so obviously there still needs to be a lot of work done on top of this stuff but it's cool to see that like people are thinking about this throughout the whole stack and UX still is the the main problem like it's still a massive problem in this space in a way I'm I'm actually a little bit glad that it is

such a big problem because it allows us core client developers so like a little bit more breathing room before there's a billion people joining and crashing the network but I think it's really really cool and inspiring to see what's going on yeah so just to echo the thoughts I think I might like final forces that I'm actually quite hopeful for the space and because like a it's it's it's good to see all these like smart people trying to tackle the problems we have but it's also very interesting to see the people tackle the problems together and actually come together and people who will be in order like space competitors actually come together and like hey it's

let's try to figure this out together because we like all of us have different experiences whenever I may be in different problems with with our users and we can just share our learnings and and and try to solve this run together so I think it's it's it's also like the design of the just the quality of the community around each Ihram itself that you know the people who build this stuff are a really very collaborative and and and they would you know they are all friends we're all friends yeah I think I think I'm you know just tearing up for firfer solving it was having to make problems I feel like there's this new sense of urgency and that's what I got from it

the these conferences the EIP ed con not so much maybe but like the UX event like these are there they're being put together because there's this feeling like whoa there this this space has exploded these problems that were kind of problems he could just sort of leave for now because they weren't that important the user base wasn't that big there was not so much high stake stuff happening that time seems to be like over I think people now really feel that these these issues can't be left alone they have to start to be addressed that was the feeling I got from these interviews and I think a point that really stood out to me was this idea

that I mean this this was an amazing event and it brought together some of the best like devs and kind of engineering minds and a few product people but I think it was like Johnny somebody said somebody made a point that there aren't really enough other types of product people who are participating in the space right now specifically designers product designers UX designers and one of the reasons is they may be like a lot of the devs have been able to sort of create and ship quite independently without needing sort of big infrastructure aware as the UX designers and the designer kind of

person like that that role doesn't quite fit in that like pure decentralized independent model yet and that it would be really wonderful to find ways to bring more of those people to the table I mean I have a lot of friends who are UX designers who are interested but they actually don't know at all like how to get in where to get in and I thought that was sort of a takeaway after this for me at least was like wow that is something if if those problems are to be solved then the community also needs to find a way to bring more of those people in and incentivize them yeah so I guess that sort of concludes our Toronto week of conferences and a little wrap-up of the UX on conference Maj a thanks again

for joining us on this episode thanks for having me to our listeners thanks for listening thanks for listening you [Music]