Why the Cosmos Hub is Forking and BLAST L2 Will Probably Work | Roundup

Transcript

all right everyone we will be back to the program in just a moment but before we do I want to share something that blockwork has been cooking up for these last couple of months March of this coming year in London blockworks is hosting D London the largest institutionally focused conference in all of crypto Goldman JP Morgan 72 all in one room so you can know what the big money is doing so click the link at the bottom of this episode it'll take you right over to the homepage and use Bell 20 for 20% off I will see you in Sunny London Town in March all right everyone welcome back to another episode of bell curve before we jump in quick disclaimer the views expressed by my co-host today are their personal views and they do not represent the views of any organization with which the co-hosts are associated

with nothing in the episode is construed or relied upon as Financial technical tax legal or other advice you know the deal now let's jump into the episode all right everyone welcome back to another episode of bell curve uh you got Michaels one and two Vance and uh special guest Sam Hart who's been on the show before but uh Sam welcome Michael Vance what's going on everyone good to be here post post turkey yeah what do people do for big with big family time did anyone cook or attempt to cook anything a hard no abely not I was I was in charge of a side let's just put it

that way that that gives you all all the confidence that my family has in me for cooking what did they put you in charge of potatoes no no I did a uh I did a buffalo cauliflower dip it's actually pretty good okay that's pretty good yeah that's like a six and a half seven difficulty I would say that's showing some faith in you it's pretty good yeah I was at my my girlfriend's family's place and it was like huge family 60 person Thanksgiving it was uh it was really intense uh F first time meeting everybody or uh second time uh definitely some new faces I I've

met always a lot yeah no pressure no pressure in that yeah nice well um all right let's get into it I the first thing I wanted to ask you guys about um or maybe just bring up obviously this is a little bit old news but uh CZ uh is stepping down as the the CEO of binance in a pretty Landmark deal made with the Department of Justice um so there was a large $4.3 billion fine uh CZ is going to retain ownership uh but he can't operate you know being involved in any sort of operating capacity for the next uh three years or so uh so obviously this is all relatively old news I would love to get your guys I guess just high

level take on it like there've been kind of divided I think some people view this as like okay this is sort of the next step right this is one of the big hurdles or sort of um like overhangs that still exist from a regulatory capacity we know that us Regulators haven't been super friendly towards binance I think a lot of folks on on crypto Twitter have had the idea that look CZ did a lot for this industry you know we we finally found out how many accounts binance had they had 150 million accounts you know they've arguably onboarded more people into crypto than any other entity in existence um so I think there's kind of that uh angle to it but I also wanted to get you guys thoughts on where you see binance market share um which is just a question that I've been asking myself uh

three years out say um you know is it less than it is today does binance sort of slowly bleed out from here or I think you could actually make the counterargument that because the doj is going to be surveilling them they're kind of one of the most trusted exchanges in crypto today and they have the head start of a ton of liquidity and Partnerships and all that stuff that they've been building out so I guess like what what's your guys high level take on the whole binance and CZ stepping down do you mean sex market share or or exchange market share say again him sex market market share or exchange market share generally that's a good question that that's the question yeah okay let's say let's say both yeah I'd like

both I mean so just broadly speaking you you hit the now on the head Mike with this is one of the overhangs of uncertainty that everybody had been thinking about talking about knew it was coming nobody knew when it was going to happen um it's one of those things like when you're watching a scary movie and you finally see the monster that's been chasing people around you're like oh well okay it's not that bad um I think th this is actually a pretty fundamentally bullish thing for the global crypto ecosystem just removing the uncertainty is huge the other angle too I think is um and I saw a couple people um positioning this way is they were never going to let something like an ETF go through without the clearing

of this type of a situ situation um so I think that's actually pretty bullish as well for the ETF uh that's potentially happening in you know January is um so ultimately I think this is a positive it's the like seventh largest fine in Us in dep Department of Justice or in US history and maybe the largest in Department of Justice history um CZ also is not able to travel back to the UAE in the meantime he has his sentencing hearing in February like there there's still a lot of stuff to figure F out what's going to happen with this situation the um you know yes they're going to be surveilled by the US now um they also are going to have to totally

cut ties with all us customers um so I think that is probably one of the bigger questions in terms of uh are there still remaining us customers as you know a vestage of the 2017 20 2018 era they're now not going to be able to trade on that platform how they cut them off you know remains to be seen but it seems like they're they going to move in that direction I also saw that they're shutting down B USD which you know they're going to have to start cutting off these products and services um so to Sam's Point I think broadly you know our view is that Dex activity will overtake sex activity in you know a period of time like in the next year or two um and I think this is one of the catalysts that helps make

that happen yeah I'd agree with that um a lot of parts of binance that people don't have a full view on nobody has a full view on and there's a lot of parts of the the regulatory action that people don't have a lot of uh visibility into um you know we're seeing D listings happening but it's pretty clear they're going to be more constrained in in some way um so that that's a big question mark for me uh as to how effective they can be as as a centralized exchange um we also don't know a whole lot about the internal leadership and morale and uh

you know a lot of things that intangibles that are like pretty important for um having that kind of leading Market position yeah bance what do you think the only other take I have on this is um I mean like the CME is now the largest open interest Exchange in crypto so it's not even like um binance market shares like slowly dwindling it's just like these other exchanges are really gaining on them and it's obviously not the same set of people it's differentiated it's institutions and imagine what an ETF looks like compared to like spot centralized exchange you know as we know them volumes like it could be like it could be like centralized exchanges in crypto are like pretty insignificant

obviously like a lot of the flow will hit binance and like a rising tide will lift all boats but I could see that happening um the other one I mean just in in Reading kind of the regulatory news this week is like you know the uh it's William Ado who is a treasury executive at the US government he's now you know asking for for more power to go after International stable coin issuers obviously like that's a code word for tether but to the extent he's able to succeed it's like we've already kind of beaten that horse they already had all those lawsuits like we'll see um but it just kind of goes to show you that no one is beyond the reach of of uh of US law enforcement right this

guy um seems like a nice guy you know whatever but like you know no one is beyond the reach of these people even CZ who was in a non-extradition country had you know 3040 billion whatever you know how however Rich he is it makes me nervous about uh Justin's son and um his status because like he's like you know the the last of the micans in some ways and we'll see if that persists but like you know people are like oh yeah he just runs these like crazy scams on Tron and like St usdt isn't even usdt and like nobody knows what's backing it like all good things must come to an end at some point and so we'll see and for a lot of these guys like if the choice is um you

get to be a a person with 10 or 20 billion dollars like maybe CZ or Justin son but you have to stay uh within Dubai Russia turkey Iran or North Korea like those are your vacation spots or you make a deal and you're like a global citizen again what's the point of having all that money if you can't travel it just well it doesn't make any sense what one of the variables that I think people kind of found out was uh in the plea deal with CZ he will not appeal anything he does not have the ability to appeal anything up to 18 months of jail time but he does have the ability to appeal something if there is more than 18

months how they got to that 18 months no idea but I I think there is an element of there's not a 0% chance that CZ will will face jail time when sentencing is up um obviously we know you know other others like Arthur Hayes had you know house arrest um and you know there have been previous uh infractions in a similar vein maybe not at the same scale um and obviously not with the backdrop that we have now but you know there is an element of like this this story is not done yet for cc yeah I it's I think it's I think it's tough to ever really fully predict that out um I I I agree with all of you guys I just see uh um centralized market exchange Market centralized exchange

market share dwindling um and I actually do when we talk about blast I think a really good interesting area that this is already playing out frankly is nfts like if you look at what blur has done on ethereum and if you look at what tensor has done on salana it's been pretty remarkable to see uh just how fast that market share has shifted um from a super dominant position from incumbents so the Department of Justice has like played a new a new card here like we know a little bit more information about uh their position um just because it's a regulatory action of this magnitude um there are things that they could have done that they didn't do and um so that that might uh indicate to others how they how they may proceed in

the future and namely the person who or the the people who were not represented at the press conference was the SEC yeah I thought that was interesting and uh you know cftc doj treasury but no SEC um there that that does also leave open the potential for something else to happen is anyone else interested in the price of the price of B&B is held up very well like I I don't know what I didn't have an expectation for how it would respond to something like this but um it's been interesting to me that I'm super curious what happens to their their chain like me too actor you know who

knows definitely a lot of you know unanswered questions and who knows but I I also think like we're talking about such a global ecosystem that 150 million people even if it was 150 million people completely outside the United States is so small in comparison to the global population that's interested in this and I I think yes there is a point of you're not um you are under the reach of the US Regulators if you have any sort of Us customer base but I do think that binance is something that will persist at the scale that it has and the recognition with the B&B price or any of the EOS like the trading volume hasn't fallen off precipitously they're going to have to cut back stuff eventually um but we're talking about a global

ecosystem and there are regulat regimes that are much more favorable for this and frankly where binance has focused over the last few years the bulk of these infractions happened before or during 2021 and you know things have changed since then um so I I don't know I I it's possible that we just start to see like binance as a restof world operator that doesn't touch any us persons or or customers and and they're going to be able to be you know massive there for yeah you might be right I mean I also just I don't really know uh much about Richard Tang it seems like he's got a great uh background he could be sort of the DAR kerah to You Know Travis KCK um at Uber and maybe he I don't know I could see it I could see it

happening um I I do think also Vance made a really interesting point about CME I feel like it's gotten a little bit of attention but not not an enormous amount uh maybe did just transition a little bit here uh so CME open interest has absolutely exploded and it feels like that's actually what's been leading some of of at least the price action in in Bitcoin and ethereum uh it's also interesting I mean people have been following this pretty closely but uh coinbase has been doing very well and micro strategy has been outperforming as well some of these like public market proxies for crypto actually Michael sailor announced another 500 some million dollar Bitcoin buy he found he found uh he found 500 mil under the

couch cushions and decided to buy some BTC yeah and he's issuing another $750 million worth of equity to you know you know presumably buy more Bitcoin um but both of those things taken in conjunction it's kind of like when when micro strategy in coinbase starts to do well that sort of smells like an Institutional or more traditional interest in crypto um and same thing with CME so it's just interesting to see all of that pickup ahead of uh ahead of a potential spot ETF approval and kind of gives some amount of data to support the idea that this could be an Institutional lead rally actually so I don't know if you guys agree with that have thoughts or yes I think that's what we're playing for you know like this is what takes it

to you know a million BTC 100K eth like it it can only happen with institutional inflows um like I think you can get to like 5 to 10K eth you know whatever 100K for Bitcoin with just retail and uh you know like Leverage enabled by perss and things like that but it's never going to be sustainable um and so like this is the secret ingredient I do think it's interesting that you know maybe kind of like a a counter perspective is like bitcoin's at sailor bought it at like 37 or something I think was his average price yeah just 36 something well yeah his total average is like 30k okay yeah but but the last trunch was like 37 37 yep I

mean it just goes to show you like how much money is needed to move Bitcoin 700 million is like a lot um and I think if you put that into just about any other crypto asset it would like quadruple but it's just like you know rock rock is heavy hard to move grug smash it's tough out there that's true like you know if we get if we get 10 billion dollars of inflows in the first year that's you know 15 Michael Sailors just think about that well sailor this week right I guess they start stacking at some point but

like right you need a lot of capital to move this thing and it can feed on itself but I would say we're just we're just painting the base coat right now you know absorbing some Supply ahead of the ETF we're just getting our ducks in order I think it's I think it's going to be interesting next year yeah I tend to agree I also I also do think though that you know Bitcoin being larger and having it uh you know be more liquid and all that kind of stuff it it means this was always going to be what happened right it's it's not going to have these crazy maybe it won't have as many of these crazy moves but that is what opens it up to like real institutional money like Sovereign wealth funds and pensions who always found uh you know I just heard this from

a lot of the people on like the allocator side that I used to talk to is like bitcoin's just too small even um so you do at a certain at a certain point when you get larger you actually unlock a new supply of investors that you didn't have before true so you know what do we think that that magnitude is uh you know what's a benchmark for like small versus large asset for these allocators I I I think it it has to do less with the size of the asset more with the volume on a trusted intermediary um and and that's where the CME actually becomes really really important um because that's how these players are going to be able to get in

historically if you're you know a pension fund or someone you know who manages hundreds of billions of dollars or tens of billions of dollars your options are basically like coinbase or like an OTC desk who's you know spreading that around to a bunch of different coinbase like entities yeah it's it's not very simple to buy a Bitcoin spot in size just out of curiosity uh I guess you'd have to spread this across like the ETF and um but like how much how much gold what's like what's the daily volume on something like gold that trades hands anyone know let's see I mean like you know I was looking at Snapchat earlier that has like $500 million of volume a day so like it's interesting in traditional Finance it

seems like the alts are like more liquid than your average crypto alt which kind of makes sense but gold I think is I think it's probably trading like let's see I would guess around what Bitcoin does in a day but what is that is that GLD volume is that like the tough part is there's like gold spot but you're not really trading that it's it's all GNA be a proxy all right I I got an answer here I mean this seems this seems wildly I mean it says here it's 130 billion a day for gold S&P 500 stocks are trading about 240 billion a day it is worth noting

that gold is the planet's largest asset so that kind of does make sense intuitively but you know we're working with like one maybe like 3 to 5% of like daily gold volume in crypto okay I mean I honestly I could see myself being totally wrong on this but that actually doesn't sound that sounds directionally correct sounds right Sam what do you think I I feel like there's even gold trading that's that's not like super visible that's used for kind of internal accting um so so even the number that we're looking at there is not uh necessarily representative of like the

entire volume so it's very hard to project right also congrats to Gold bugs it's above uh 2050 and they've been waiting for that since 2018 so big shout out to them yeah we're happy for you guys let's go by the way they are the most actually the second most insane people on the planet you know who the first most insane group is no silver bugs really those people are working with yeah some raw materials in their head I don't know what is going on but someone convinced them a long time ago that silver was the key to De generational Citadel

well crazy just like Litecoin yeah literally first bag first bag um wow one of the Thanksgiving stories heard was uh basically this uh someone's mother who was like really really into um was a gold bug and then kind of got into Bitcoin through like a an antiva uh Channel um so yeah I mean it all checks out the the crazy like Aggregates um it adds up it adds up

yeah um all right let's uh oh actually one by the way just that on that note about tether I feel like this so Hart lamber was on this podcast uh last week and he dropped this little tidbit that I feel like should have gotten slightly more attention so he was in Istanbul for um Dev connect or whatever and he mentioned that you can go there's uh there these markets you know I think there's one particularly famous Market out there and he said you can literally Go and show up with like $10 million wor worth of cash and convert that into tether like oh yeah you can yeah there's um I feel like that's kind of a big story even even crazier stories that we've heard I'll tell you one yeah so in

uh in I'm not gonna name the country and we haven't done this but we we work with a company that does uh you know seizures and custody for like law enforcement and big government agencies and and one of the the examples that they gave us was um you like you know you get in this telegram group or Whatsapp or whatever and you know there's a guy obviously and it's like you know hey I've got a bunch of tether that I want to uh redeem into cash or gold and what they will do is they will well you know they'll you'll send the tether to an escrow and they will drop a bag uh and they'll bury it in the woods and they'll put an Apple Air tag on it

and you know you use fine my to find the the air tag and you dig for the bag and and you like you dig up the bag and it's full of like gold or cash or whatever anyways we're the good guys on this one we're helping like you know stop this but uh the OTC market for tether and like into cash or physical assets it's very real and it happens globally to be clear the company that we're partnered with is the ones trying to prevent this from happening this is not like you know it's a great business opportunity yeah um it is for the right for you know if you're helping the law enforcement and and you know government side it is but so I thought the crazy tidbit you know I think it was maybe Hart who said

it or somebody that I heard uh who was at Dev connect uh taking it back to Justin sun was uh the dominant Network that everybody trades uh usdt on is Tron right it's the vast majority of where usdt exists which I had kind of known but I forgot about for a while and it is the dominant platform in these countries and it's not even usdc and and the reason why I think he was talking about or someone was talking about was just because of that one you know Saturday in March when everything blew blew apart went down to 92 cents and then rocketed back up that distrust is enough to be able to push people into you know

usdt wait I can't remember now I'm mixing up I can't remember if you and I talked about this or if someone I don't remember who told me this but uh someone someone said something very uh similar to what you just said and actually the perception of people in other countries is that like the tether team is like more legit and better like more business oriented than the circle team which just blew my mind uh exactly I yeah that IPO is and or the circle IPO that's been rumored or planned I think there was something on the Internet in 2024 it'd be a weird look if like your business just got haved and you're going public I'm not I'm not sure how how that that works I think there is like a real lesson to be learned here though crypto

industry which is like the the tether go to market look very very different from the circle go to market like the whole infrastructure wallet integration deployment strategy um very different the the organization is kind of tentacular in a way that like is uh yeah just kind of structurally um like not what Circle looks like um and these are some of the things that you need to to get deployment into um countries that that want access to these um these

dollarized coins so uh I'm fascinated by what that infrastructure actually looks like what the kind of or structure looks like there um and and it's hard to dig up information on it um I would love to talk to somebody who's like really boots on the ground I don't I don't think they want to talk to you or I don't think so either I me like the bull case for Tron is very clear the bear case also very clear like part of me thinks that at some point like the centralized sequencers the networks that are facilitating you know basically like centralized transactions and transmission of money

like those are those are very clear like BSA violations and at some point that will come to a head and it's either going to come to a head just by the you know some Senator today asked uh Circle if they were aiding and a betting Justin son like like we're we're not far from like you wake up and it's like you know same thing with czs happening to Justin yeah see I I don't know if you guys five years ago if we were um you know talking about main characters who was gonna make it through this um I would not have been betting on his Excellency but he's uh he's been pretty bulletproof uh you know to his credit and I I actually did have I I was

talking to someone yeah so far right um I was talking to someone who works at a uh well I don't want to actually out they they work in kind of like infrastructure and sort of a markets Capital markets type type role and they they were saying they they'd been hearing that um like the SEC Commissioners you know were getting briefed on more Mev related stuff and uh I I think um I'm stared to hear like hear it come through that this like Mev stuff that was like a dark Forest thing that uh crypto internet nerds talked about is like making its way towards uh regulators and they're starting to understand it more which was always going to happen but it's tough to get the timeline so anyway yeah you ever heard of like the object permanence

problem not really what it's it's something that little children have where like you know if I'm in a room and I go behind a wall they think I've like disappeared from the planet same thing goes with like you know these regulatory infractions it's like if you don't get caught the second you commit the crime you're you're you're free you're not guilty just like it's not how that that works um the Chargers are still in the room with you they just haven't presented yet so like we'll see like all of this stuff yeah I advise everyone to think about the long game you know just not worth it we're still working our way through like 2020 stuff and it's you know about to be 2024 yep I agree all right everyone we will

be back to the program in just a moment but before we do I want to share something that block has been cooking up for these last couple of months March of this coming year in London blockworks is hosting D London the largest institutionally focused conference in all of crypto we are gathering 12200 of the world's largest asset managers so thank trafy macro funds Crypton native funds big allocators and financial institutions so Banks payment processors Etc all in one spot it's very rare to get the likes of Goldman JP Morgan 72 whatever all in one room so you can know what the big money is doing we're diving into the themes that they care about so we're talking about the intersection of macro and crypto where we are in the cycle real world assets so everything from stable coins to unchain treasuries to tokenized assets it's going to be a

blast but the other reason you really want to go it's London baby center of the world at one point you got Pub culture you got fish and chips great beer it's going to be a blast so because you're such great listeners to bell curve there's a Code Bell 20 that's going to get you 20% off so click the link at the bottom of this episode it'll take you right over to the homepage you'll see all of our speakers and use Bell 20 for 20% off ticket prices are going up soon make sure you go use that code I will see you in Sunny London Town in March okay so speaking of um I don't want to use that se let's talk about blast um so blast so blast uh is the new layer 2 U which is launched by Pac-Man so Pac-Man is the founder of blur the

marketplace which honestly has been relatively controversial I think there have been some my personal opinion is sort of bad takes that they killed the nft market which I don't necessarily agree with um they have eaten an enormous amount of market share actually from from openc um here I actually will share my screen I've got some um there's a pretty good Doom dashboard by HBY that covers this but you know PAC is a clearly a good founder um he's got very good insights he is you know 24 years old he's doing quite a bit he's running two companies here so he led a you know uh Paradigm and standard uh coed $20 million round to launch blast they had a very different goto Market strategy s poting about tether H where they basically launched as a

multisig and they you know it's kind of a one-way multisig where you can deposit funds that you can't get out for uh three months and uh the the whole point of blast as a layer two is that there's native yield so what blast does under the hood is it reallocates user deposits into one of two places I believe which is just Ste uh today or into uh maker so you're getting treasury yield or sort of the eth stake rate um they have they attracted about I mean I think it's just under 600 million in tbll now um I think it's higher than that now but yeah yeah so I mean lots of lots of uh Lots I mean what what do what's your

guys take on on this at a high level be curious got to put a lot of trust into that multier I mean we we've done a couple things like that in the past but I don't I don't I don't see me putting full trust multi anytime soon I've been surprised that this much went in yeah it's like how much are you really expecting to get in terms of rewards it just it actually just feels like there's even better rewards that you could get elsewhere there's better use of your Capital uh somewhere else so I I think the global comment is you know independent of blast or whatever is like if you can put up a multi- and have this new L2 backed by whomever uh launching

whenever obtain $600 million of tvl over the course of the last four weeks like crypto's back Animal Spirits are back true yeah I tend to agree I I have two two thoughts on this like one loss marketing and kind of sketchiness of the multisig I think pretty clear it's it's off smells wrong um I haven't talked to anybody who wasn't a little bit concerned about it um the other big part of the narrative is uh basically a uh whether stake tokens should be used on l2s and um how that kind of changes

the um the assumptions about how the L2 operates the security model um the uh the kind of validator set composition and and kind of control structure of um the eth token um and it's definitely like forcing the hands of other l2s um is putting some pressure on them to think about yield opportunities uh of the bridge contract between the the L1 and the L2 yeah I mean I think uh like Ste Supply is ripped higher I think there's been like four or 500,000 Ste yep uh or maybe a little maybe a little bit less

than that three you know 300 350 um die Supply from this is also ripping higher um and so like this is what really good infrastructure looks like if there's something happening on chain you know you Downstream of it become the beneficiary and to Michael's Point like we're back and there's going to be so many of these token farms and like I know a lot of them are going to use the same blast strategy because why wouldn't you it's obviously working and they you know it's pretty easy to put together you know at least a multi is um so like I I think the the changes in this in my from this in my mind are like you know I'm neither bullish nor bearish blast neither endorse nor back their

tactics but uh I think Ste Supply in general stake eth Supply is going to be higher than most people project I would say it's probably going to be like 60 or 70% closer to like Cosmos or or like salana it'll take time but like you know this is like a week of farming and there's like 300,000 Ste that have been stake because of it play that out over a super bullish year with reaking with all that stuff I think that's the first one and then the second one is um probably die Supply is like more bullish on die Supply and a lot of it's going into the DS Sr which is like not directly benefiting maker because you know maker buys the treasuries then they pass through the yield on the 5% you know flat pass through but once endgame farming starts and like you know the

tokens aren't going to the DSR they're going to like Farm the subow tokens at like 10 or 15% apy like you could you could see like maker being a huge beneficiary of of this trend um and like you know why wouldn't uh why wouldn't you know usdc fill this role a there's no yield pass back and B you know the kyc obligations around converting that much money into that many usdc stable coins that's probably something the circle's going to be like what's going on here yeah I think so I have uh a lot of thoughts on it I guess I think the to your point about I guess I have a sort

of uneasy feeling about it but I also think it's probably going to work and probably become something that looks more like the norm like if you think about this from the standpoint of and actually I want to giveit I was talking I had a long conversation with Miles about this um this is sort of his observation I think it's true which is that if you think about the Challenge from a regular L2 okay you're launching into a sea of layer twos how exactly do you differentiate really what you need is to attract users and developers to build on your platform as opposed to arbitrum or optimism or um scroll or whoever now if you don't have any like latent uh you know user funds or something that's a very different conversation but now blast can say hey come build here we have 570 million dollar or or $600

Million worth of tvl there's clearly a lot of lat and demand right so it makes those conversations I would guess quite a bit easier so I think from that standpoint it's actually a pretty good strategy I think my my sort of concern about this is that so here uh uh they tweeted this out but um my my my concern just like what are the risks and controls here uh because basically what you have here is kind of like an onchain blockfi structure right where you've got uh people that deposit things and uh then you're turning around and putting that into something that generates yield now you're passing all of that on to the user there's a totally different Revenue model but if you look at the balance sheet of like a blast versus something like block looks sort of similar um and

and my my just concern would be like have we thought through like what is the infrastructure that's that's managing this right behind the scenes and actually there was an example where it's a multi it's a multi multi pie of techology as well hold on I'll get the screenshot we can drop it in when this actually goes live but uh Someone caught that you know the if you deposit like tether what they what they were turning around and doing was converting that into die through curve but the default tolerance or slippage tolerance was set to 10% so they lost like $100,000 and then they just had to front the user that money they give him an extra 10% bonus but it's like come on guys doesn't make me feel particularly great about the the protocols that are supporting

something like this and there could be weird edge cases like what if there's an enormous amount of people that want to withdraw I would guess you have like a market maker on the other side of that that maybe like Bridges the the gap for a little bit but these are those all feel like unanswered questions and I feel like they're pretty important so I guess I have a general feeling of nervousness about the whole thing the other sharp edge is like the whole ecosystem is a Reb Bing ecosystem um so none of the contracts can be like directly migrated over you have to you have to like reimagine the entire uh structure of like these defi protocols so that they work with with rebase as as a kind of native function so I could see

some blowups happening from that just put guns there um that's going to be a very complex challenge to rebasing is one of the most difficult constructs to be dealing with uh maybe not as a user but as any sort of intermediary or custodian or you know developer um so I I I was literally about to say I think you know the construct is is going to be problematic going forward why would they do a rebasing instead of an exchange exchange rate mechanis like it makes sense of something like Ste I understand the psychological importance of Ste equaling eth and that makes sense to me but I'm a little confused about the decision to do rebase here is non rebasing is hard too

like is what we use for a lot of our onchain stuff and you're like what's the price of WAP steth like how wait how much eth is that like where where's our liquidation like it's like hard to manage rebasing at least it's like you know one eth is one steth and you get more each day what what what that tells me is two things number one what they will be attracting is retail because I think retail will care about more of the the the atomicity of what one token actually equals and rebasing just means more tokens um it also tells me that and you know they're not going to have as much you know custodial support infrastructure intermediary support just because of that because rebasing is not like no one in in who's a an

intermediator can support a rebasing token which is why rap State eth exists uh the second is the the bulk of the people that they're probably going to go after are non- us because in the US what you get with a wrapped token versus a rebasing token is a capital gain versus something that's declared income and it's a it's a it's a minor point but every single time you're earning more tokens that's income versus something that you can wrap into an eventual capital gain uh or loss but it at least is Cap gains or losses as opposed to income okay question for you guys like maybe last one on this um do you think because I think I forget Sam or Michael

one of the two you made this point that it might kick off the pressure for other layer twos to respond more immediately but also I feel like there's a Temptation um to look around and if blast is really successful and say hey there's a bunch of uh just piles of eth sitting around here being not very Capital efficient uh maybe we should try to find a home for them in something like Lio uh for instance and I do wonder if this sort of kicks off Capital efficiency meme almost um wherein everyone starts questioning why there are these pools of eth just sitting around not earning yield um ditto ditto stable coins ditto you know like e but like one way to think about this is like

there is you know how many there there's probably 70 million eth that are unstaked there's like a 100 billion of stable coins that are not earning any yield it's pretty simple to spin up a multisig it implies a very high valuation if you already have 800 million of value in this blast multisig and so the L2 itself is probably worth billions and you know generally one way to think about crypto is like the lowest amount of effort that can generate the highest dollar amount of profits is going to be like dosed by people like they're just gonna they're going to spin up 50,000 Unis swap clones they're going to spin out 50,000 nftd collections like the technog grift is real they they will

go after it and you know who are the winners I think the winners are the obvious like the l2s blast like it's probably like high Enterprise Value uh the winners are the users who uh you know frankly like get more yield and you know air drops and all that stuff but like mostly the winners are like the large infrastructure plays that sit below these things like Ste and whatever you know even if it's not die even if it's like you know I can't even think of another yield bearing one but you know there there are them um like those are the winners who are the losers um usdc and usdt uh I guess anyone who thinks the E stake rate is gonna stay low anyone yeah

anyone who's betting on the eth stake rate being low but like I think the bull case for Lio is like they have like 30 million eth staked and they're like you know 3 32 or 33% or whatever the number is you know of like that's like the new the new that we think about it just from this stuff because there's going to be so many of these Farms okay just just to play Devil's avate a little bit the let's say you're an optimism and you're at the stage where you have a decentralized sequencer and you're considering converting your entire Bridge contract into uh staked e um you already have to curate a operator Set uh for your centralized

sequencer why not just have them run ethereum nodes um and become the liquid Stak protocol like the operational overhead is zero basically when do you think that decentralized sequencer comes you're the youth guys I don't know like like the next Winter Olympics is my guess yeah you know like Italy 2026 like here's the here's the reality is like this is all going to happen in the next like two years like and then you're going to kind of aify into like the dominant

infrastructure and like the also rans there's also like probably a bunch of stuff that optimism has to do to you know even like regulatory clear this and like if you're if you're if you're a foundation at least a us you know formerly domiciled one like you are very careful in what you are doing and you are making sure that it's like as limited of scope as possible like I guess part of the reason that I'm so uncomfortable with blast is like this doesn't seem legal you know like like it's like Michael and me being like all right send the money to our fire blocks addressed we're gonna do something with it and we'll give it back to you in five months like the yeah it's just like problematic maybe it's

possible in a decentralized context but like the itics don't get that much better I'll tell you what was not helping them out either was those little Graphics they drew of the of their marketing strategy which I do feel by the way I will just because we're being a little hard on blast like they're not running a Ponzi scheme that that has like dominated The Narrative and that's a really silly accusation it's not a p something else but it's not a Ponzi it's something else is not a Ponzi yeah and I've just listened to a bunch of debates about whether or not blast a Ponzi and it's like kind of a stupid conversation actually so I also think tan is like a good entrepreneur like uh blur is like a good product um and like if he ends up winning nobody's gonna remember that it

started as a multi- right so like it's kind of like too soon to tell but also gets back to like the CZ and Justin Sun point where it's like nothing's happened yet but also to be fair like optimism is multis like with we have we haven't surpassed multi6 here it's just you know yeah I know but it feels even though we haven't surpassed them it feels like like people are starting to get wise you know like like I saw I saw some hack happen on Bas and my first reaction was like oo how does coinbase deal with that because like you can you can you can brick the withdrawal from the chain if you really want

to coinbase has a lot of interest there are a lot of interesting questions to be asked around how coinbase will deal with stuff um frankly yeah in in C's lawsuit is a quote of him asking him saying like it's better to ask for forgiveness than for permission maybe I mean maybe well look at this I mean here's a very plausible scenario not to return to CZ that could play out for him he pays that binance pays that massive fine he pays his 50 million fine right which I think he had to settle with the cftc uh he could let's say we split the difference and say he gets like n months of a house house arrest type jail and he still retains control of binance was it was he right you know

like yeah because he'll wake up in three years he'll be able to operate binance again it was a really high risk strategy that he ran it's like the Jolo uh billion dollar whale perspective of like if you get to be so big that you make 10 billion dollar you have to pay a billion dollar fine but then you keep the nine true J is kind of a different story though that totally but the the concept of I mean it's the same thing with with tether too to a certain extent it's like they've gotten to be so big that you know any sort of ramifications are are I mean mincing uh storylines here but I think binance has something like 6.5 billion of uh liquid assets on their

balance sheet that people have been able to track down so yeah it's two-thirds of their balance sheet you maybe they have more offchain but it's definitely not as bad as it could have been and they get to continue to operate cool maybe just uh because I'd love to get your guys' opinions I do want to it's sort of related to to blast but I'd love to get your opinions on like blur and kind of like nft onchain Market structure I think it's a pretty yeah me I'm going to share my screen here and then uh Sam we're gonna call on you to talk to us a little bit about what's been going on in the cosmos because even for the the typical Cosmos governance drama it's been a it's been a big week um but the so I havn't really been paying that much attention to nfts until um pretty

recently but I I was pretty surprised I I knew that blur had been doing well but I I didn't know that the market share has shifted so drastically so this is in in this past week um you know Blur by by volume had 78% of uh you know trading volume went through blur compared to 177% at openc um and that you know I can't really remember at one point what they what openc used to have in terms of market share but I think it was 90s right mid 90s y yeah um so and and you can actually see the same thing being replicated over in the salana ecosystem with uh tensor so tensor you know it's a it's an onchain Marketplace it's pretty small team um you know a couple of

Founders and they've uh eaten all the market share away from Magic Eden as well um I would be curious I'd be curious what you guys think about this because especially because and and how much this comes down to incentives and airdrop farming and uh the promise of token rewards because this was a huge decision that openc was being faced with when blur launched they were like are you are we going to launch a token in response they ultimately opted not to do that and to be honest it looks like that was probably not the right decision that was probably the wrong decision um openc Revenue down 99% in the last 18 months yeah that's tough like that you know 50% the team you know they let go of recently they

did a uh a leadership offsite recently I mean they're they're going to have to chart A New Path forward it's not it's not like really a competition anymore I would say damn I will say this for uh Pacman he he at some point in one of these Twitter threads that he's done recently he sort of stated these like two observation that he had that um you know nfts basically his whole thing is that you should treat nfts kind of like altcoins um and you there deserves to be an Institutional grade per market and it should be cheaper and you know he really leaned into the sort of you know to maybe be a little bit pejorative like the all coins with pictures uh view of nfts and I think at least for the current customer that exists and what

people are using nfts for today it looks like that was the right that was the right call um I mean the analogy that I think of is is like it's kind of like eBay you know the the marketplace for the long tail of assets versus Amazon the place where you go and buy everything and uh I think that Nar I mean you you look at the relative market caps and and I think that you know largely that that trory is going to continue to play out but openc has been a Marketplace for individual assets the financialization of uh or the trading financialization of nfts has become blur and and sure incentives H hypercharge that transition but I think that the strategy of that you know has definitely been the right strategy

too I'm I'm just looking at like the actual nfts that have traded hands over the past month there's like two kind of bigger Moments One was like the uh Yuga Labs like crypto Punk announcement and like all those floors getting swept um and then there's obviously mad Lads on Salo which is kind of popping off even today and then there's like basically like some wash trading or smaller collections like the I'm hesitant to like make any you know definitive statements about the nft market because there's really only like three assets like you can buy it's like crypto punks for Apes fidas maybe like we really think the the nft market is going to go

in basically like the polar opposite direction of of where it is today like super low cost more vertically oriented like gaming nfts um and like you don't need a per to trade like a $2 sword in a game you know you just like need a spot market for that and really like the pers only makes sense with like the high value Asset class markets and so it's like how much do you believe in pfps being worth $500,000 persistently over 10 collections not just three my confidence is low during the last cycle when openc was like was really Top Dog there was this thing where openc was kind of the your primary

Gallery as like an nft hold it's where you like went to view and like uh understand and kind of appreciate your collection um and that was actually like a key element of its success in my opinion um and the combination of like the market cratering and um wallets and and kind of specific Gallery applications like really maturing um during that time period I think actually shifts the um the kind of use case a bit um so poy isn't able to kind of like rest on that um that user stickiness where they're like oh I want

to look at my my jpegs um you know you do that elsewhere now you do it in like rainbow wallet or you do it in like one one of these other venues that's like a little bit more specifically designed for that for that purpose buy that yeah I can I can see a Founder building like a super low cost super low fee oriented at Super you know lowc cost again items um and this becomes like the pro suumer like blur becomes like the pro suumer trading venue for people who want to like speculate on fenzza being the next like picassos but that lad Market while it's filled with prosumers and like that's generally what the market of crypto is

filled with today like it it doesn't expand infinitely the way that other asset classes do for nfts yeah that's you make a really good point I I will say I think one of the things maybe I'm a little bit hopeful about this but I would hope that people in this cycle because I'm I am excited about nfts I feel like they're gonna come back at some point but I hope people experiment a little bit on the model like want I've showed this to you guys a bunch but uh like what Luca Nets is doing at pudgy Penguins feels like he's sort of rewriting the nft business model and playbook in a in a way that makes just an enormous amount of intuitive sense to to me so I think that's like one way that you could go

kind of the e-commerce traditional IP build kind of way um and fit that around what nfts are which I think I'm actually surprised more people aren't just copying what he's doing uh but I think that's like one way you could go but I do think there will be some amount of um like especially as you see other like there's a little mini nft bubble going on in salana right now it's not just the lads there's like qu and torans and stuff and I think there is some amount of I don't know like as long as you have these different ecosystems with different characters and different communities there will always be some amount of demand to be like like Pride or like emotional connection or community and I think that's a big part of crypto at least for the time being

like one of the macr trends we riding here is people feeling lonely and wanting to like plug into communities online and for that reason I I don't know I can kind of see it I this is how I feel about the tap rot Wizards on bitcoin too I'm like I feel like that's going to be a really successful nft collection um and I'm rooting for them because I would love to see some changes get made in the Bitcoin uh culture honestly and if they can plug those little tiny blocks with transactions then that's great I be as a win-win only there's only like one of those per chain it's like Crypt punks for eth I guess it's like tap Wizards for Bitcoin maybe it's mad Lads but it's not like I I hear you on this yeah it's

not infinite the problem with like the altcoin with pictures analogy it's like byy and smart but like a they're nowhere near the market cap of traditional alt coins and B there's nowhere near enough of them that are meaningfully sized like it's not really that it's it's like a good marketing statement but it's like not the ground truth fully agree with that also when number go up anything goes totally I think that's true too yeah yeah being a part of a community in the Bull Run is like bag holding in the bar run you know it's like all the same stuff it's yeah in the last nft cycle there was also I mean nfts brought in a

huge influx of new users and like they had certain cultural affiliations with these jpegs that they were kind of encountering for the first time so um there is potential to like actually create new new communities there new new jpeg holders you know what I can um just as someone who's like a media operator I can kind of squint at nfts and see something valuable which is I'm not a lover of the overall model of media which is like you know eventually you get large enough as a media company where you have to kind of go like very broad um and then you start selling ads on a CPM basis and it's just super commoditized and it's like bad it's a horrible business there's like any

number of examples and FTS are like the opposite of that it is 10,000 people or 5,000 people that are like rabid super engaged people and it's not the same business model you have to think about it a different way but as just as someone who's spent a lot of time trying to get people to engage with things like having that community of people that will just I don't know like jump on a plane and go somewhere to an event or uh you know buy something just because they're part of a community that's a valuable thing um and I I don't I think people will experiment with that idea and find new business models that make sense around it but yeah I I actually I hear you Vance I I there it doesn't make sense for there to be infinite

collections that just go up a million percent then I'm remember when we were fractionalizing nfts because you know that way yeah y like follow the logic tree it doesn't work you know it doesn't make any sense yeah I'm with you on that okay nfts though just not the current crop I think that's a fair take um okay Sam I'm gonna uh turn it over to you here because it's it's been a big week for Cosmos there was a big uh prop that ended up getting passed through governance and maybe the most uh contentious uh on governance proposal that ever made it through Cosmos where the where the the inflation rate was decreased by 10% um and this actually

led to Jay uh who's one of the original Founders at tenderman to suggest a a fork of the cosmos Hub so you just like for those of us who don't spend all their time in the COS can you just give us the sort of the history of this proposition why you know we're talking about decreasing the um emissions rate um what that's supposed to do and then talk us through this fork and how meaningful that may or may not be yeah happy to uh I mean how much time do you have this is a 10 minutes we're we're an hour into the Pod and we're getting into the to the core subject of it so yeah exactly uh so one point of clarification before we start the the prop was to um to decrease the the target um inflation

rate uh not the actual inflation rate so um I guess just like a a little note about how the cosmos staking system works um or at least the cosmos Hub and many of the cosmos chains follow this model um there is a target stake rate uh which um is today 66% um and uh basically based on the um the number of stake tokens or the ratio of stake tokens um the inflation will modulate um in order to kind of hit that Target and it does so um at kind of in this like PID controller type fashion so

there's like a feedback model where it like evaluates am I close to the Target am I above the target uh if so then I can um I can decrease the amount of emissions um incrementally and if I'm below the target I need to in increase the amount of emissions in order to hit this uh 66% Target um so what the the vote was to um change the uh the kind of bounds on um on this targeting system so that the maximum amount of emissions that could um that the system could uh could reach uh was yeah one was haved and

um it it does have an impact on validator revenues like so the the real um revenues that the validators are are pulling in um did change but it uh that number was not half to um so slightly different um this is kind of a long time coming um um and something that we you know have been talking about for you basically ever since liquid staking uh was an idea like multiple years um basically the the whole premise of liquid staking is uh that you were going to issue this um voucher for a Stak position and so uh

you're removing the opportunity cost between staking and um yield opportunities in EOS system so you know theoretically the the stake ratio should increase um you you don't need to do the same kind of targeting because you should kind of naturally um uh the people would be more inclined to have a liquid Stak asset and and uh and put it in a a yield Farm somewhere um so it's kind of like just to make sure I understand that Sam it's like there there was a there was a the emissions were basically there to incentivize people to stake and not you know take the opportunity cost of

potentially going and doing other things when you now now that you have liquid staking and there's the LSM uh which is like you know very successfully integrated that within the cosmos Hub then that opportunity cost doesn't exist so to compensate for that you can actually bring the target emissions down because people aren't sacrificing that opportunity cost anymore yeah the targeting system just no longer really makes a lot of sense in my opinion um this is kind of the the difference of opinion that many in the college ecosystem have with with Jay um Jay is like a pretty anti- liquid staking from a you know principles basis um Jay is also you know a very colorful complex character um and you

the kind of origin of a lot of the cosmos drama was you know Jay having some serious uh mental health issues that that caused the um the entire engineering team to to migrate to a new um new entity um there was this kind of great fragmentation that happened um in order to to kind of continue to build the the core infrastructure and so over the course of several years like a lot of the um the kind of key resources that were in and around all in bits um that this originating entity uh that Jay controlled have been kind of migrated elsewhere um I spent a bunch of time moving the the trademark

and DNS and and things like this to to a separate entity and like going through all the the kind of legal aspects of that um it created a kind of environment of um of distrust between Jay and and some of the other uh really all of the other people in the ecosystem um which is really unfortunate there's yeah so there's a lot to say there but it it is a complex uh kind of situation between Jay and and a lot of the other core teams um and uh when so I I kind of spearheaded the the Adam 2.0 initiative um he really

came out strong against a number of the the aspects that were um that were kind of described in that paper it it really assumed this like liquid staking world was going to exist and you know he fundamentally doesn't think that that that's the direction that we should move um he has a kind of design in mind where um you don't there is no liquid staking and actually the the atom token is um is kind of this like internal asset uh that is like primarily held by um by instruction providers and delegators and a secondary token called the the photon

is like is issued off of the um off the chain so it's kind of like a a meme meme coin um that lives on Top of the Hub and you know most people that I'm surrounded with uh felt like this was kind of a non nonviable option people don't really want this secondary token they want some kind of um representation of the the kind of internal token of the network um so yeah the it's really kind of like a philosophical difference about the the core security system and the core kind of uh monetary um uh the connection between the

monetary and uh and security systems um and yeah the this vote basically kind of drove Jay to um to want to experiment with fork um I I don't personally think it has a lot of support from any other core team in the ecosystem or any very few validators or the consumer chains of the cosmos Hub um I could be proven wrong there but uh that's that's my read of situation so so it sounds like we're going to hit you know some sort of Fort here at some point Point um and historically I mean if we think about

the major forts that have happened historically there's like ethereum ethereum classic you know whenever that was 2016 2017 obviously all the Bitcoin stuff but I'll leave that aside because you know we're not building apps on on bitcoin and then there was the proof of work proof of uh proof of stake uh with the merge obviously proof of work chain got decimated immediately um the reasoning I would say that ethereum class still exists in conjunction with ethereum um the canonical chain whereas ethereum proof of work does not exist versus ethereum proof of State the canonical chain is because the the variables that decide which chains will

live on has fundamentally shifted back in 2017 201 2016 2017 with classic it was really where the miners were going to be how much hash power were you going to devote to the classic Chain versus the canonical chain um now you have an element of where are the applications going to decide to deploy their application and support that application going forward the power has shifted away from validators miners into where are the canonical examples of like usdc or and I know Cosmos is different I'm just using ethereum and the forks as example um how would you say like what what are the variables

that you think will be in play for deciding which one of these becomes sort of like the canonical or or do you think it's an element of you know both will probably coexist in and you know yeah how would you think about that going forward yeah so one thing is uh tenman now com bft is is a forkless protocol so um there will there will be a continuation of the chain um that is can be validated by anyone um and it's it's kind of the chain we we know today uh Jay's going to have to spin up a new a new version of the chain um and kind

of get buy in for that chain basically he's going to have to I would kind of uh the monetary asset is is really like the the most important thing here and um if Jay wants to make uh this atom one uh chain the the kind of canonical one you would have to have all bridges um change their pointer to hits chain and say that this is the right the correct representation um that is a big ask that's a lot of social viant to get um that

said uh the cosmos architecture was designed for this like it it it's actually a system that encourages forking like that that's part of the security model actually this is how you um ensure that there is uh kind of minority representation in the system um and it provides a kind of check in Balance so the kind of credible threat to Fork is very important in kind of insuring some degree of like internal regulation um you know so that uh yeah so that like minority voices can can actually like Express themselves within the the application within the chain um

so there is the ability to to migrate these um Bridge pointers uh the IBC client um ID uh and there's governance on all these IBC connected chains to that you know there's a parameter and you can you can change it um like we built that um so I'm very see you know how how that plays out um I'm glad that the the capability exists um if and it it could actually uh I don't know heal some things if Jay uh kind of pours his

attention into this and and feels like this is he's able to kind of execute on his vision um I was oh sorry I I was ask you guys like I um I so I've been actually going back and uh listening to old episodes of epicenter because I was just I found an episode and I was like oh these are actually really good they they went on like a great run from late 2016 to 2018 2019 and I I listened to a lot of interviews that they did during the Bitcoin block size War so as the bit Bitcoin block size war was like heating up and when it got to it Zenith when it was really contentious um and I I actually had a lot of takeaways from it but the one thing that everyone was extremely nervous about was the possibility of a hard fork and the the

reason why people were worried about that was because it destroys the immutable value proposition or store of wealth value proposition of something like Bitcoin which is a little bit Bitcoin specific but also it would break the network effect of Bitcoin this was a big argument right so now if you have two chains you know you don't really know how it's going to shake out in terms of Miners and hash power but also some developers might go in chain one versus chain two people won't know which is the which is the main one and you'll just divide your your uh your yeah the network effect that you've recruited and built up I I do kind of Wonder this is obviously the counterfactual and there's no real way to prove this um I you can argue that that's really scary and like you don't kind of want to have to deal

with that but maybe there would be some sort of healthy elements to that and actually one takeaway that I had going back and listening to the Bitcoin block siiz wars and maybe this is a heretical thing to say because now the perception of it is like there were these heroic little blockers that you know like fought off these corrupt uh sort of big block companies but like at the time the way that it was and I wasn't paying an enormous amount of attention to it at the time but it does feel like actually going back there's like at least um there were at least two separate perspectives um like you could construct the argument right I I don't think it was like these evil you know rapacious people who came in and tried to mess up this good Network I think there were actual legitimate arguments on the other

side and maybe if it had been I mean I guess there were like multiple like Fork attempts you know after this but um I don't know I think I think there maybe is another future out there where that big block Bitcoin sort of forked and became something sort of more interesting and actually a lot of those proponents you know became influential in other projects like um you know IM Eman from Avalanche you know was kind of sort of born in that community so I I I don't I don't really know what my point is here I just first of all I would recommend people go back and listen to that um as a unique moment in history but also i' just be curious how you guys think about works and whether or not they're threats to the chain or maybe it's a way of actually just the

community grows big enough at some point that your tent is too big not everyone is marching in the same direction and it's kind of like a natural way to say hey you guys go do your thing pursue your vision we're GNA go do our thing pursue our vision the best vision is going to win or maybe we could just be you know coexist even um so I don't know that's where my head went when I was thinking about these Forks because I think still part of the Bitcoin a credible threat of a fork is still part of the Bitcoin security model like we you can't get away from a fork like it is it has to be in the conversation it has to like be out there somewhere um it has to be entertained um same thing with ethereum kind of discussing the

possibility of like forking if there were was like sufficient censorship um the the threat of the fork is super important and the capability is is super important it's kind of like a mutually sh destruction scenario yeah I don't know Vance Michel on if you guys have any thoughts on any of this or haven't paid enough attention to Cosmos my last experience with a fork was the eth proof of work Fork which was uh there wasn't a separate Community turns out it was just Chandler glow and 16 different masks he was wearing so I don't know do you remember people were saying some

funny stuff before that fork they were like oh if there's a fork then there are going to be Punks on the proof of work chain which is technically the canonical chain and they're going to grief like the Punks on the proof of stake chain and there's this whole there were lots of conversations about this and then none of that stuff ended up happening or being meaningful at all like a little bit just just a scam it's all it was yeah there's crazy me between the different exchange rates and different exchanges that yeah it felt like that was like the last like techno grift of the last cycle you know like everyone was just trying to squeeze that last dollar out of it and uh go on vacation but we'll see yeah maybe just uh in closing do you guys see that clip uh to take us totally out of crypto of Elon

Musk um telling advertisers to go it delete your Disney subscription I told I told Vance I woke up this morning and checked to see if I still even had a Disney Plus subscription and deleted it really El Is So based I'm so glad he owns Twitter I'll okay I was actually going to say uh that actually not the most unhinged thing did you guys see the kyber swap exploit and the letter that the KY swap exploiter sent like that is like entirely new level of sociopathy unlocked by that KY kyber Executives um thank you for your time you've done great work uh don't let the exit stop you from leaving you know

what the little thing that got me was like yeah you what could have happened anyone wasn't your fault you were good at your jobs but nevertheless I'm going to a rounding error up or down crypto is nothing if not entertaining I mean that is gold oh my God yeah leave it at that yeah yeah all right fellas good one thanks Sam for joining us this was fun guys yeah thank [Music] you