What is Plasma? - Paul Faecks

Transcript

if you build a payment product um for stable coins and you build a global payment product you have one choice and and that is to be very focused on on USD why are institutions so interested in stable coins is it about the yield is it about the use case you have 220 25 billion dollars is in in stable coins right now welcome back to the rollup your home for technical talks and open conversations that shape the modular future nothing on today's show is to be construed as Financial advice you can see our full disclosures list at tholl up.co ventures sit back relax and enjoy today's episode after a quick word from some of our awesome Partners innovating Finance Global institutional and onchain deep liquidity to drive Capital

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yeah well it's your first time on the role um obviously we met just basically two months ago a month ago in St Mor for CFC had a great event there a lot of a lot of institutional people there and also here I think that's the current trend of crypto and we'll talk a lot about stable coins today about what you guys are building at plasma but first time on the show so who is Paul and um yeah why are you building in crypto sure yeah so I I used to play poker way back in the day um and had kind of much much smarter much more Visionary friends uh than me and kind of talk me into into doing crypto um and um started very much on the kind of onchain set of things went through like the very early days of like the The Ether Delta and and and idex

days lost infinite eth um on on that by the way should have never touched either of those and um then going to blend through like really all of D5 really coming coming into being as as a as as a concept and then becoming pretty large and pretty pretty quickly and was very active and kind of onchain um throughout the the the early days um and I know if DJ score means anything to you I was pretty pretty high up that yeah I it was top 10 at some point that's pretty good so really kind of spent my time in like the very deep trenches and um then started a company called alloy building IMS BMS software um on on of the institutional side of things and then worked with lots of lots of kind of

large institutional pay umum in building IMS and mpms software and mostly for kind of the liquid crypto um side of things and and now now doing plasma which is a a payments specific a chain specifically gear towards stable coins um and so that's kind of the somewhat random Arc of of how I how I ended up here and so my my co-founder Robbie is I met him at the University Bitcoin Club freshman year which was June of 2017 I had just briefly been introduced to bitcoin prior to then um and then we kind of reconnected after in 2020 to start the rollup was for know as defi

slate and you your college roommate or friend is also working with you on plasma now yes yes my my very good friend is is like pseudonym is is is lucid um and we used to live together um in in uni and um uh spend many long nights and and and early mornings together just kind of also like the the peak defi time kind of coincided with the the peak Co time we were kind of locked into our apartment anyways and and uh spent a lot of time together and and he then kind of also ended up going in a in a very very Crypton native Direction and now very happy to kind of be be be working with him again like old friends always kind of back I'm very

happy I I kind of have a rule of like don't do business with friends but the relationship started with Robbie around crypto and still live here with Lucid so it's like it's just it was a natural path it was like I don't know who else I would have uh yeah been like yeah let's do this together right I think I think it's actually great to do business with friends because you have like a a deep kind of trusting relationship and and I think that is especially in like small teams well like it's like a very like we we just spent the last um two weeks in in swissing together like all like in in one house just like awesome getting getting stuff done and and like you end up spending such an incredible amount of time together then like you need to work with people who like would hang out

outside of work otherwise you just become miserable and and and then so I think that's very much also kind of the the the the what we're trying to do at plasma is to like hire people we would also like to like spend 16 16 hours a day with because it's kind of inevitably what happens right and so um no I'm I'm I'm very happy about kind of the current team setup we have a a very remote first work setup in crypto now natur just because how Global it is but when you do go on the ons sites it's like it does feel like two things one you get a lot more done and you get a lot more cohesion and then similarly on the other side when you go to conferences and you actually shake hands and sit down with people yeah the process of like BD if

you will accelerates so much further and there's so much more urgency in getting things done when you meet people in person 100% I think the EV of just getting on a plane um I was actually speaking to to to Van said that framework let out around and he was like look like the EV of like just getting on playing and meeting people and and and actually kind of shaking hands is is incredible and and I couldn't agree more well glad that you're here glad that you made it um out a good spot because I put out a key takeaways tweet like two days ago been here for like four five days and it said that there's a ton of institutional based interest in stable coin oriented projects uh just yesterday Adam Moka and Standard Chartered

announced they are working together on the Hong Kong yes here actually I at sart right before this um they're doing some very cool and very interesting stuff yeah so that is just the epitome of what's Happening Here yes um why why why did you choose to build in stable coins like why are institutions so interested in stable coins is it about the yield is it about the use case is it is it the uh lower cost margins on different businesses is it crossb payments or like what is it that institutions are so interested about with when it comes to stable coins I think it's very easy to to to grasp I think this is very easy to kind of see the like very immediate value um in it the way I view it I think crypto has

kind of two two main categories of like massive product Market but maybe three I think like Bitcoin is kind of in it in its own category I think Bitcoin is kind of very much of one as an asset like as just digital gold I think that's somewhat separate from like the the rest of of actual do to to an extent and um then you have gambling which like is speculation gambling whatever you want to call it 24/7 massive pmf like like no like no no disect to to to that category at all Libra ex and uh yeah Libra was a bit of a show from like what I saw from from the outside and um then you have Sable coins and like actual kind of um crossborder remittance flows and and just basically tokenized cash I it as a

barbell it's like you got speculation and stable coins everything in the middle is still trying to figure out where where to go yeah anything like there's a whole bunch of very very interesting stuff um kind of that doesn't fit into those two categories and I think a lot of that is is also going to work at at massive scale yeah but just looking at at like the the data now yeah I think those are really the kind of two main of AD scale one else so let's zoom in on stable coins I'm an institution I have a little crypto exposure and knowledge why are stable coins appealing to me I think you have different use cases right but like like um why stable coins buing I think there a couple of different answers to to that right um I think on on one hand really

just having incredibly efficient and and fast kind of payment flow that settles immediately and is kind of provably actually settled I think it's like if if you've ever kind of used stable coins to like send money to someone um is just such a superior experience anything else I think that is like a very kind of tangible um IM case especially now kind of also in um in in on on the commodity side of things and for example we see we kind of a lot more of these kind of crossb trade financing type type products also have moved to USD and and usdc and so I think you just have such an incredible amount of Global Payments flow and stable coins are really small

right now basically I think this is like easy to to forget that you have 220 25 billion dollars is in in stable coins right now which sounds like like a really large number the it is like it's it's it's really like it's it's incredibly tiny and and knowing that's kind of held back by by regulation in in in many different ways um I think that's changing in in a massive way now especially in in the US right right and I don't know if you've seen kind of the stablecoin and Bill drafts um all of them kind of basically establishing a framework for kind of really using stable coins in in in global Commerce and I think as soon as that happens you just have kind of GES opening to kind of actually have stable

coins tokenized cash kind of be deeply intertwined into the the trafi kind of payments and um rails basically yeah and I think another perspective to add here is that my mental model is stable coins outside of institutional use cases they Pro they democratize the access to US Dollars one however there's still a hidden cost to stable coins that I think people don't realize which is that when you're holding stable coins as a user the companies are actually earning yield on the stable coins and they're making money off you effectively but you get you get access to the dollar however if you go and then take the dollar that you're holding and you know you can go in circle and the

coinbase is offering you a couple percent tether you can put into uh a you can put into def5 markets and you get a you democratize access to not just a dollar but to treasury yields on the dollar in a safe Manner and that to an underbanked population is massive it's incredibly valuable I think is it's also like tough to tough to underestimate how how kind of strategically good that is for the US to kind of establish as us dominance globally and and so I think actually um like both tea and and and CLE are kind of very much um I they they align incredibly well with kind of the the US's kind of goals macro interests

basically because there's there's a there's a thesis there like a dollar Theory which is one thesis that's somewhat applicable but there's there's an economic situation that happens when the demand for stable coins thus increases the demand for USD as a as an asset is that is like like how how do we think what's the right way to think about the mental like what's the mental model for the economic demand for holding stable coins and how that reflects on like US dollar in relation to other Fiat currencies that aren't as powerful from stable coins or maybe it's not that deep it's not that impactful yet but it could get there yeah I mean look the the like vast vast majority of like global trade settles in in USD especially like the the like large

notional right trades like it's like the one current like there's a reason why why it's so dominant and and that's also a large part of the reason why sa coins are so dominant in South America and in in in Africa to to an extent and then like basically in in in a lot of different places where on one hand access to US banking um is is is challenging and on the other hand you just have challenges with local currency that have massive inflation um or have like very opaque systems basically of of of of actually accessing kind of conversion to to to to other currencies and and and you just have so so much complexity kind of embedded in in that and it's not a coincidence that like

those are places where also stable clients have like the the the most usage um and and and and so I think is really especially USD but but usdc as well is kind of a a very easy way to access you of a US dollar and a bank account in the end globally and that is in the interest of the US government basically and and so think that like an incentives are incredibly well aligned basically between stable cores and and the US in the end so totally agree and I think what's even more so happening now is that tether is actually becoming a larger beneficiary of this trend as of the last 18 months than uh usdc in the

sense that when tether was like I remember back in the days I would to read bit the next uh medium blog post about tether is uh unbacked and it's going to blow up and then uscc kind of came around everyone was like we got our Saving Grace like it's backed by coinbase public company or iping IPO happened balance sheet but now tether just absolutely exploded again and is ahead of coinbase and coinbase's uscc and is like looking that it's going to end up being like the stable coin of the world in a sense partially for a couple reasons and and I'm curious to understand from your perspective this dynamic as to your relationship with tether and you know kind of why you're choosing to build around tether because

tether is not necessarily set up in the US and so they have a different set of guidelines that they are operating in now there is a stable coin act that's coming in that will kind of level the playing field a bit more but there's been some sort of like geoarbitrage that's happened as well as tether's adoption in Latin America has like tether is focused globally while I feel like USC kind of focused more in the states in terms of adoption so maybe just put the pieces together here um why has tether kind of I think I mean by market cap surpassed to but I think even by Supply it has as well you can fill in the pieces here what happen happened like why did tether you know gain ground and um where do we go from here yeah I I I view usct

and usdc as as somewhat distinct products basically um and usdc is very much kind of the the domestic dollar product basically in in the US and and in Europe to to an extent and us is very much the kind of export of euro dollar basically um and I my personal views I think the the kind of time for the L category is like orders of magnitude larger I think like US dollar domestically is is is a much a much smaller Market than US dollar globally like that economic size is much less than the economic size of global dollar trade 100% 100% And if you look at the kind of actual kind of real

activity us dominates but like an incredible margin um probably is tough to estimate but like 80 85% of like real actual kind of both consumer and and business usage is usdt denominated and not usdc you have a lot of kind of idle Supply sitting on on coinbase and and on other exchanges for for usdc where I think is like it's a fantastic company strle and then they're going to IPO soon and and um and they like they've made some of the right choices I still think that like on the actual like if you build a p payment product um for stable coins and you going to build a global payment

product you have one choice and and that is to be very focused on on USD and so that's why you think tether has kind of started to kind of surpass is because it's it was more focused on This Global Supply it's I mean it's always like no surpassing happened um it's just always been that in my head then no mind it was like tether was kind of like in this spot I me UCC but now it's like very clear no I especially from from a usage perspective like it's it's always been incredibly tether dominated and and I don't think that changes in a in a meaningful way cuz um it's such a it's such a networks affects business too right where like the payments product but like if I send you money um and I have I have I don't know I have usdc but

you can't accept it then like that is a useless product right and then so you you need like all of these systems are like very interconnected and and and then tea is at some point basically is very Lindy now um definitely you go to I mean I spent a week in El Salvador a couple of weeks ago and like you go to those kind of smaller kiosk and you can pay with usct and turkey same thing and like you Brazil Argentina everywhere like you just have kind of usct is accepted everywhere and it's kind of the the one kind of standard asset that everyone Thailand and and so that is such a massive Advantage just kind of be

entrenched in in in in kind of all of these kind of local um in all of these kind of local communities and and and processes um that is incredibly tough to to to go up against y Redstone is def's modular Oracle supporting over 100 clients on over 50 chains offering 1,000 assets Redstone is the leader for Bitcoin staking and yield bearing assets they offer the most robust customizable price feeds available aable in any model join the Redstone exhibition [Music] today okay so tether and UCC USC and UCC

are I I like to say tether because it's can get kind of confusing it's hard to hear sometimes but tether and usdc are both erc20 tokens yeah uh they they were born on the not only right I mean you rather TRX and you yeah they were born on ethereum um I think most of tether demand has been on Tron uh recently in terms of payments um so you're building plasma which is a what I like to call a purpose built chain for payments I think that's what you guys are calling it um specifically for users of tether um so maybe you could explain why we need a dedicated blockchain for this and why this current setup is either inadequate

or isn't fulfilling the needs of a certain customer base or client or Market that you have in mind that is going to be using PL yeah I think that's a very valid question it's it's very interesting if you look at like where outstanding usct Supply is right now and andan it's incredibly dominated by by mainnet ethereum and and then by by Tron those are really the kind of two heavy weights everything else is is is somewhat somewhat Subs scale and um ethereum isn't really viable um for like actual kind of payment flow right I for for like somewhat obvious reasons it's just it's expensive I like it for for holding inventory sure yeah if I'm sending you like eight figures of of

tether you probably don't care if it's $7 or if it's two cents still cheaper than a wire transfer as long as gas is down that that's very true but I think to like actually build a payment system on like massive scale yeah is just not viable eum and um I think Tron has its very own set of challenges um and and and um it's actually not that cheap anymore and I think also you have a certain level of of discomfort um um kind RIS as well in in just using like I would personally not feel amazing about like having insane inventory um um um on on on onon personally like holding eight figures on on onon is just zero onon

today yeah i' I've I've used TR quite quite a bit and and and um it's just not and I think like we're hearing similar things from like the largement redeem entities who like somewhat uncomfortable kind of holding holding inventory on on drawn and so I think it's to me is very obvious that like neither of the two very ominous ones expensive slow chain that's good for like maybe large scale payments and then we have this chain that's kind of you know a bit more centralized has some history behind it and you know let's just say consumers may not be that comfortable using it and it's also dominated by like the Easter world so we're kind of having like these two kind of both not ideal are working for now I think I think that that that's broadly

that's broadly accurate but um drawn is also just like fully like Legacy technology right I mean is this like a 20 15 16 17 like like like vintage chain right and like you now have very different capabilities of of kind of building very fast very cheap um kind of transactions and then like okay way then what is the so how have you guys thought about building plasma then in like his purpose built manner for payments like maybe what is what is require of a chain let's start here that makes stable coin payments great like what what what are the key properties and then how have you guys build that in yeah I mean I think being fast and cheap is is kind of a

it's a necessary but not sufficient condition to win like I think every chain is going to be fast and cheap right and like um um and you then have kind of the the extremes we have like the the monads and and Mega E just like very focused on like being the fastest and and the cheapest I think that's a very viable path to to to focus on um I think it's kind of table Stakes to to be fast and cheap future you can't no it's like it's commoditized and like maybe not commoditized the right word but it's table Stakes yeah 100% And so given that we're very focused on on the stable coin and then specifically kind of payment Flow side of things we can make a very different set of choices that like a monad or or a Mega E couldn't and that it's both from like a

an architecture standpoint but but it's also from a kind of go to market strategy like what we care about um perspective on on the technical um um side of things um like I said in Fast and cheap is is kind of given anyways but but then you can build a lot of kind of stable coin and payment specific features as well um do you mind dting into bit of the technicals like yeah what's like what the the architecture the the how how you guys do consensus and execution would we yeah yes we have a fully kind of custom built um consensus that is bft fad stuff based similar to to to monard um actually um but with some kind of crucial changes that like are for like this this one

specific purpose um where um we we have fully gasless USD transfers you can send money from a Tob without having you don't need a secondary gas token you don't need um B it's free basically um and and um we do that by like doing some some pretty kind of deep customizations on on the consensus side of things and then having some basically a custom set of validators kind of um specifically geared towards towards doing doing transfer um transactions I think that is really what like the bulk of of the kind of activity is in in stable coins which just sending money from from from A to B and um then I think especially for the for the payment side of things privacy and and and confidence confidentiality

is is is a major factor like if I send you money um ideally you don't see my entire Financial history as a result of of of that and and and so I think there's kind of creative ways to to to to solve that and like you have to be S careful you're going to stay compliant and into like not right they in the tornado cash Direction and and and and and then so um that that's kind of been been been someone challenging to to to work around but I think there's also Solutions there and then so um really what what we what we care about is kind of having the greatest possible kind of end user experience on on the on the payments um side of things and um getting there by being fast and cheap

having having free transfers um liquidity is obviously kind of a major factor where like all of this is is a network effect right and then I think and of just given how commoditized just kind of blockchain like providing providing box space um I think is used to be a fantastic business yeah no it's no longer I think that is compressed meaningfully um and and so it's really like salana isn't winning just because it's fast and cheap um Solana is winning because there's a vibrant ecosystem of of like interesting things to do and I think that that that's also broadly how we how we like look at look at the world but like just having this I think it's naive to to assume that like you just

build something and like people are to like show up and just like build stuff on it and and you like incentivize 47 different uni V2 M Forks to to be built on on your chain that's a viable path maybe it's very much not the path we're taking I you have to be very focused and like actually have like a tangible like reason for existing I'd say it's viable three years ago but I think like K we're talking about how lowering the barrier to entry for new chains accelerates the competition as well as accelerates uh in experimentation yes which means that um what used to work won't work also in addition to that um with different forms of abstracting way chains themselves and

operating in a much less like chain Centric environment yes uh the best products will win the best the deepest liquidity the best execution the best applications will will rise the top by form of aggregation uh of of ux um so there's some interesting points there no I mean it's incredibly easy to just like build a generic chain yeah I mean like yeah takes you 2 and a half hours and like $2,000 to like have that like and op chain right very easy right it's start you you don't need to raise 10 million to launch of chain anymore yeah uh you know if you're building something very Hightech and specific right with a good use case like obviously you guys rais quite a bit there's still market

demand but there's no Market there's no more market demand for like another L2 has a general purpose chain like R it's just not going to happen I think it's a salt issue to exent um and and then so I think it's we don't want to kind of resolve yeah salt issues so back in nitpicking here if you guys have no gas fees on USD trans usct transfers excuse me is tether only right effectively it's it's for usct only it's for usct um then um how do you prevent spam that's a silly question but like how do I just like I'm just going to spam the network and just yeah that's that's a very valid question basically we have a kind of two sets of validat us um and and one of them only kind of doing the the kind of transfer um logic and and there's um

there's a there's a process to kind of um prioritize um transactions and kind of do do do like you can of secondment transactions into like being being real and being not real um and and um there a very long paper can I can send it to you after this um kind of doing that it's is relatively complex and and also kind of out of my own capability of explaining to to be frank um but that's the high level so you have one validator set to achieve consensus amongst the chain itself and then you have another validator set to enable the consensus of the fast or of the cheap or of of the free USD uh transfers it's

it's conceptually really very similar to to what hyper liquid is doing um on on on their kind of evm um where they kind of have basically the the kind of small block and and large block um um logic and then one is just fast cheap and the other one is kind of um um Sol but but has like different set of properties basically and and I think that is very much the kind of way to to build chains now I think you kind of have to like think different transactions like filtering them and having like different kind of sets of properties um and inherent in them um makes a ton of sense no it's a parallelized but it's not parallelized in terms of like all transactions are entering the same highway it's like there's multiple highways exactly that can that

transactions can go into and yeah you you explain it much more much more elegantly that than I do so is a very good way of putting it um okay so we're looking at the landscape here ethereum Tron both ERC or ER ethereum oriented Tron kind of like ethereum Fork effectively um but you guys are doing this um through Bitcoin so what does that mean like are you guys inheriting Bitcoin security to enable your valuator set are you like a Bitcoin I mean we get into the terminology of like L1 L2 side chain but like what is the Bitcoin relevance here sure yeah I mean I think like ultimately the kind of semantics between side chain L1 lines get lines

get BL and just spoke to Kane was like is is it an L1 is it a side CH like well you know um whatever you wanted to but you're inherit some security from Bitcoin yes so on one hand we have uh we have native Bitcoin Bitcoin bridging so you can BRD Bitcoin to to to plasma um and and then also you know you can stake Bitcoin basically in in the in the consensus like fasma is a is a pu space chain and um then also we we publish in state proofs to to bitcoin and is kind of always have like a of plasma State basically is is is is kind of broadcast and and recorded on on bitcoin um and in theory you can reconstruct and of plasma state from from the the Bitcoin L1 yeah

um it's very I mean I don't know how how how much like you've spent in like the the technical Bitcoin space but um there massive debate on on on covenants and BP 347 and and and and those types of things and I think a lot of people are are betting on on covenants making it to to to bitcoin which would enable native multis and and and and basically make like true rollups and and and l2s on on bitcoin possible and and like like you kind of have to separate on like what I think would make sense and what I think is is likely to happen M I actually think covenants are a great idea and like should make it into into Bitcoin core at the same time I believe the like probability of it actually happening is

pretty low and and and so um we're very much building on the assumption that like there's likely not going to be like massive fundamental changes on on the on the Bitcoin core set of things and that means you're kind of building you kind of on the Bitcoin set of things at least Building Product with like two hands tight behind your back basically and and um and you can't wait right like there's bit VM happening there bian 2 now and there's opat but if you just sit there up a with with your you know with your with your hands behind your back you you're not helping anybody you're not bringing value to the world so I mean I think I think incredibly like I mean the the BVM team and and also the kind of wizards um and then like CAD VM is

incredibly cool for example um I think that is incredibly hard and I have like immense respect for for what they're building yeah um I still think that like the the Covenant bet is is likely a losing one I mean and like look I mean it's I might be wrong on this yeah I think bitcoiners value immutability a lot yes and rightfully so I think like that is that is that is fully that is fully right I think you're now seeing kind of this emergence of like a real ecosystem on on bitcoin right but you have you have babyon and you have Lombard and you kind of have you're seeing like actual demand for like using Bitcoin productively and um I think that's also just very much at the

beginning well like you have so much capital in in Bitcoin kind of fully idle and and I think has a very clear path to like also 100% yeah and I think that there's a lot of incredible teams building in a Bitcoin native defi yeah so curious about your kind of Market go to market your like your customer your how you going to get plasma in the hands of people and this is going to kind of segue into your business model yeah uh main that token Etc like how does H how are you going to take plasma and because right so so the thing with ethereum and Tron is that they're in they're in all the centralized exchanges yes they're in

all of um you know large players around of space so there's a certain like windy effect there certain M that they have there how are you going to make plasma this chain for tether and how are you going to bring that into the market whether it be Asia us globally what's your plan to do that and then kind of segue that into your business model and kind of what's coming sure I I think like the the go to market is is very much kind of I think it's two different sides to it on one hand you have kind of the the crypto native um um side of things which is kind of the typical just kind of chain go go go to Market to to an extent but like you want to attract liquidity and and like you want to attract kind of

great people to like build in around on top of um your your chain that's definitely something that we also kind of think about I think it's going to be very focused and like we're working with you of a couple of fantastic teams um that are like very much kind of stable coent and and payments and focused as opposed to like we're not optimizing for having 150 protocols on on on on day one we would much rather have like five fantastic ones where like you have like actual kind of um an actual kind of value to to to anyone who who uses it and then you have the kind of local quote unquote ground game basically and and um been spending a lot of time in of the South Americas like El Salvador

Argentina like incredibly interesting places for that but but then also tum as as you say and just kind of finding ways to to entrench plasma into those local payment flow and processes basically and I think that is a very different go to market I think that's a a frankly much a much slower one I don't think we have any like we're not going to win in like a meaningful way day one basically on on like the consumer facing local set of things I think we can win that over time and and and and so um I've been spending a lot of time on on kind of um um going to Turkey next week um for example to kind of um um me with a couple of the the the local players there and then you also have like a lot of local

infrastructure on of the centralized exchange side of things and and and um I think incentives there are also very much on moving off of Tron you know because that's all like a tail risk to to take and and also like an operational expense consideration yeah then the last thing here was um how you guys going to generate Revenue what is your business model here what's this like path to sustaining this thing and and then I guess you know what's the what's coming next sure I mean like plasma is going to be fully decentralized and then and so like we're not a not a kind of equity based company that like has like a like we're not charging 20 bips on my payments volume or something like that

um that's very much not what I think makes sense you um and and so we're really interested in building this in a in a very distributed very decentralized way basically um and and also kind of handing it over to to to the community in in some fashion gradually um and and and so um the same business model that that you any blockchain basically and what's the road what's the road ahead here to main that into what's what's what's coming any Alpha for the community for our listeners sure yeah um I mean so a main that is is going to be live in Q2 um most likely um it's always like building chains and doing it well and like being

being security focused just takes time even for teams with infinite resources and and like infinite very sharp people and I'm working on it and so um Q2 provisional on like things going the way I hope they go basically um might be late Q too awesome Paul thank you so much thank you Andy great conversation appreciate it