Unethical regulation

Transcript

hello everybody welcome to our weekly live show about bit going to money my name is Paul biting and my ghost or a you'll part of Bitcoin API company blocked real calm and free market economist to the master over to to mr. dot-com and also element research but it will tell more about that later in the show our guest today is Bitcoin serial entrepreneur Erik Voorhees CEO of shape shift on Iowa made headlines this week because of terminating services to New York customers so we're going to talk about that and much more welcome guys hello all right Paul so Eric you caused quite a quite a sort of an uproar in the Bitcoin community because you decided to

terminate services for customers based in New York and there are now on poor thing with people living in North Korea and countries like like that so could you tell me a bit more about your decision and why did you decide to do this well essentially two weeks ago the final bit license was released so the final text of the the bill it's not technically law yet but it could essentially become law at any moment how I believe so so last week we made this decision previously but we decided it was the right time to do it basically shape-shift has decided to block New York entirely from using its service so people in New York can't use shape-shift

anymore and this is basically because we think that the bit license is unethical in its requirements and so since it is becoming law we had either two choices we could either do something we felt was unethical and continue to serve New York or we could block New York and leave that market so we we of course had to do the latter the wise is unethical well it's unethical and a number of reasons but the main one that we had a problem with is that it requires Bitcoin companies to basically take a whole bunch of personal private information from users and then collect all that personal data and have that available for you can remain agent that which is

to ask for it and the reason this is problematic is because first of all that information is not needed for the transaction itself so it's not like we're collecting that information for some useful purpose users don't need to provide that to us right now and collecting it in dangers the users because personal information should remain personal wherever I can and because hacks are so common because identity theft is so common it's it's really dangerous to collect private information from people unless you need to so I'm so we just decided not to endanger people and finally the coin gives people a way to to transact without sacrificing private information and we think that's a really good virtue

of the system it protects consumers and so we we had to continue in that in that mindset you know and the feedback has been overwhelmingly positive I so we did a QA on on zap Jane and you know a lot of positive remarks there so that's that's a good thing I'm always curious like there's so many people are now used to the fact that we hand over our personal data to banks and other companies and a lot of people are fine with that but I don't I don't understand why they're not concern about not only the hex but also the mayor concept of banks and governments being privy to that or private data how come how come there is another big awareness amongst people are just used to it so everyone sort of grown up in this world where

every time you you engage in financial activity unless using cash every time you engage in financial activity you are giving away your personal information in that transaction people are just used to it it's sort of it's how things have been done and it's how things have had to be done because credit cards and bank wires and all that don't they don't work unless the identity is attached to the payment they're very insecure systems and I completely don't work at all if you don't have identifying information so it sort of been a mess necessity the people comply with that in order to make payments but now we have Bitcoin we have crypto currencies which don't need that

private information at all so we can get rid of this huge problem which is identity theft and when I was actually researching this a little bit I I was quite a amazed how big of a problem identity theft is and at least in the US as of a couple years ago from government's own statistics identity theft was like a 24 billion dollar problem like 24 billion dollars of known losses to identity theft in one year 22 just America and that amount was greater than the amount of losses for all other kinds of theft including like home burglary car theft in all forms of property theft combined Wow so to anyone who actually cares about protecting people about reducing

crime you can get rid of the biggest not only the biggest form of theft but bigger than all the others combined by simply getting rid of people having to leave their personal information all around the internet and this is an amazing new revelation that Bitcoin can brighten people and regulators are too dense to see it they don't they're so used to the old way and they want to continue having all the information that they did before that they're willing to throw out that amazing new privilege that we have in order to maintain your control and so we we couldn't agree with that and we had to block New York because of it now again people just use proxies or other ways to avoid your measure if the end of the New York well if we discover anyone in New York using

it then we'll we'll block them so if we know one is the against of our Terms so anyone that's in New York molecular service you're reasonably the hole in your jurisdiction on the internet is pretty silly though anyway yeah whatever what if someone wants to use Doge go into future of money to shift into both going to the future of narcotics without using a bitcoin is it possible then because it's a bit license is primarily focus on Bitcoin right or is it also oh it's any it's all it's all crypto currencies it's all cryptocurrencies end and just and it's a sense of crap going I make myself today and it only to use worldwide and it's not even yeah and it's going to get it's going to get very

silly because most altcoins today are in fact crypto currencies they're meant generally to be used as a means of exchange but more and more they some of the some of them are not really meant to be used as a means of exchange their tokens that are built for other things and but they act like a cryptocurrency so is a company using digital tokens for non money purposes does that fall under the New York I lines right now it does so you have this whole swath of future businesses that are going to exist they have to comply with New York money regulations even though they're doing nothing involved in money whatsoever this is one of the reasons why a lot of people in the Bitcoin community have told regulators look we know you guys want to regulate

everything that you see at least wait a while at least see how this technology develops you know give it a good number of years to to mature just as the internet was given a good number of years to mature because we really don't know how this stuff is going to get used money is just one one way and now that New York has written regulations applying to the entire industry focused on money it's going to really hamper all sorts of innovative businesses that could have otherwise existed but basically what you're saying is that everything your decision block chain has done regulated by these visualizations right yeah in some ways so there are some exceptions like a software developer who's just writing software is not technically under the bit license but if you're a company involved in

anything related to digital assets you're going to fall under the bit license and was it impossible to just hire Ben will ski and find some new pool because I think he sees for high turnout is right yeah so been lost you for those who don't know he's the head of New York financial New York Department of Financial Services basically the ones that created this regulation and because he's such a good guy as soon as he has created this huge maze of regulation he is now leaving the department to start up a private consulting company where he will advise other people on how to navigate regulations such as the ones he is created and so knows this is very

very definition of crony capitalism someone I want in a privileged position in government making a bunch of rules then leaving to profit off the rules that they made by charging people the you know the entrance fee to the the Museum of horror that they created for them and all in plain sight so yeah and his friend is spreading this jar AG instead of selling machetes yeah it's not even a secret so like he just says this you know when he's on CNBC and stuff yeah no one no one for a second thinks oh hey isn't that kind of corrupt that like cook something about magic right there no one no one even challenges it it's it's gotten so common in at least in the u.s. so normal that

people don't even question it so that's the state of capitalism in the land of the free yeah and it does your strategy is very I mean honorable but it's also bit suicidal right because I assume that other states will possibly follow in New York and and then maybe even the European Union that they put it into the TTIP contract and just you will lose more and more markets or aren't you afraid of that outcome sure um we definitely don't want that to happen part of the reason that we did this was not because we think anyone in New York will change their mind the regulators are not going to be like ah you're right people who are not even accused of crimes should maybe be permitted privacy other states are obviously watching New

York and hopefully the they will see the problems of the New York regulation and hopefully our move and the site we created called please protect consumers org which is where all New York traffic now go hopefully people in other states will see that and realize the problems of what New York's regulation is doing and they will make their regulations you know that's what you'll think I'm you know that sangria wishful thinking this very nice very wishful thinking I don't I wouldn't gamble on it but yeah any other companies that have joined you already and in your in your battle against unethical regulation so we're we talked to a number of companies that are

going to be blocking New York likely they haven't decided how and when they'll do that since the bill license is not yet law and even when it becomes law there's still like a 30 or 45 day grace period so no one has to make their moves yet and but I'm I'm sure lots of companies are trying to figure out what to do and ultimately a lot of them I think will will end up Kingdom bit license which means spying on their users which which sucks i mean bitcoin bitcoin is not supposed to be about that so I hope that companies would have a more principled stand although i do i think a lot of a lot of Bitcoin companies actually do require personal information for their own business reasons especially any that

that involve banks like circular coinbase that they need to have personal information because they they integrate with the banking system anyway so they're already gathering that information so for them to comply with a bit license isn't as much of a change but for us we operate without needing that whatsoever so we don't need to endanger these users and so we refuse to do so and I guess block chain on infant would be likely candidate to join you guys and they're not touching field either they're not touching Fiats I I I don't know what their legal argument will be there is an argument that they will not fall under the bit license because they don't ever touch or have custody at all of the customer bitcoins

and that they're not actually the ones transferring it or holding it so there will be some interesting legal arguments made but I haven't really talked to them so I don't know what their strategy will be waiting so basically when it becomes law every Bitcoin company has to has to act on this because you also have you have to see other US law right that if you do business with a customer in New York State you're a responsible even if you're a company from a different country right right so just what shape shift is shape-shift is a Swiss company it's not like we were in New York it's not like we have an office in New York we don't touch New York whatsoever we just have some customers that are in New York and want to use our service and we have to block the whole state now

because of it so yeah every every company is going to need to make a decision on this they can either try to get the bit license they can either block New York or they can proceed with their business you know as is and not not follow the law in New York I imagine we'll see people in all all three categories it's kind of it run and get this guy in his name gloss key it should be like unroll ski or something yeah well I know why he created the law right yeah or is creating a law sorry it's not a lawyer so will it become a lot and how much longer do we do we have to make them I don't know from what we

can tell it becomes law when it's published in the New York register of laws and this is this is like a publication that happens every week I think on Wednesdays of every week and so far it hasn't appeared but this this this catalogue of laws is interesting itself just how many laws one state of New York creates like every week it's like 30 or 40 pages of fine print new laws and it's not like this new law replaces this old one there's always new stuff right more expansion there's never enough regulation for regulators they always want more control there's always there's always terrorist to worry about as long as they're terrorists it always justifies every marginal piece of incremental regulation in their eyes so uh but you know the bit license will

just be one one little piece of the encroaching tyranny that is the state of New York dear any thoughts on the whole the whole thing I don't want to me it just reinforces my idea that we're moving to the cloud there's more and more parts of the economy moving into the cloud and cryptography really makes it possible for people to you know protect themselves and be being dependent on the internet and not have to care so much about what happens in a certain geographical area and of course for companies that offer services to these people it's a bit more of a challenge because they're like a link between the two but I think in the long run this is where we're going to the

money is going to be privatized and that's gonna fuel an incredible privatization across across all economies yeah once people are what people are around the world are used to uncomfortable with living in a cryptocurrency world things will be very different but we're sort of in this transition period which will be you know ten years at least of people moving from traditional finance and fiat and government and central banks to to the crypto world and so I like to think of it as this like sort of desolate wasteland that people have trudged along in for for so many years and now there's this new oasis of private real money that people can use

freely and as sovereigns and and all the companies that are being built around Bitcoin right now most of them are sort of bridges between the two and you see these regulators that had a hand in making the old financial industry the decrepit wasteland that it is and they see these bridges getting built and they start regulating the bridges and trying to trying to destroy those and trying to you know make it harder and harder for people to get away from the problems of centrally planned money and over to to free market money so it's this long this is long process that civilizations are going to have to go through and I think regulators they don't realize how impotent they actually are in the face

of private money and they're not going to have that realization easily or without a fight yeah I am I used the shapeshifter day in combination with goin ah me I'm not sure how to pronounce it ya koi no me going to me and where I work really well it was amazing experience so it's a little bit more expensive a thing shape-shifting Crips you because I had some coins at Scripps you still some dash which are transferred to my Konami wallet and then I shaved them into Bitcoin using shape-shift was a bit more expensive thing a thing with done with cripsy but it was a very easy user experience yeah I'm get the coin at the time so I suppose but if you're not but there's a lot of developers or companies making

use of your API in software how are they affected by this measure in New York well companies that are in New York we can't work with there are a number of Bitcoin companies there so they're sort of struck from our list can't work with him anymore but companies that are not based in New York but has customers in New York and they use your service well if a company is not based in New York and it has users in New York then they have to figure out how they're handling the bit license themselves that's right so they're going to have to do one of those three options that we discussed before and their relationship with their customers is their own business but if they have customers in New York then they're going to either have to apply for the bit license in which case they're going to have to

gather all this personal information anyway and then it doesn't matter or they'll have to block New York or they'll have to just run you know sort of against the law mmm it's up to each business really how they won't handle it clear so basically even a Eric if you refuse to handle this bit license they are still like forcing you to spy on your own customers right because you have to now measure your own customers that come from New York and block them for your platform it's it's yeah well not question not only does um it's not like the New York regulations only affect people in New York because let's say we were going to apply for this bit license and actually follow what it said

we have to get information on everyone because we don't know if someone's from New York unless they give us their identity documents right we can't have some people giving us there are documents and people from New York doing it so now we have to take personal information from a customer in Botswana who has nothing to do with New York in order to satisfy been Loski in his and his gang of merry men at the NY DFS so they're their regulations are very far-reaching both in you know implicit effect as well as explicit effect and I don't think that they really appreciate that or maybe they do and maybe they're glad that that the words they write on

paper affect the lives of a billion people around the world because it wouldnt got a question from the audience so maybe to you want to address this one it's from Diego Corrales 10 do you know any initiative to create an international license for value transfer as in a way Creative Commons did or as open source software as being auto regulated in respect with the local laws I don't know if Creative Commons really is like a license because there's no there's no guns behind it it's just an agreement it's part of what you could call common law and I think you know the Bitcoin protocol itself is an international agreement and if you want to join to hear the rules

you install the software and it autumn eise's the process but I mean I do think that there will be private organizations that they're going to do that for Bitcoin quality control things like I companies like ISO like the iso certificates I think they're eventually going to branch out to the crypto sphere and offer people the guarantee that this company we check them and they do what they say and they say what they do so you know with the material that they present on the website you can you can trust that the processes are backing that up but I don't have specific knowledge on on things that that are happening in that direction internationally except for of course I

mean this is huge like the side chains initiatives even if you're iam Bitcoin itself these are all these are all initiatives that are even even more reliable than something like a license which is always do the bureaucracy bias and crony capitalism and all those kind of influences there are already some some Bitcoin companies following some like old standardization license I see PCI DSS a payment standard I see did some companies and I think I actually saw an ISO certification at one other company so there is hmm but we need to of course different ones for for Bitcoin

system but already there are some some companies looking at the standardization and and that's kind of stuff so yeah and I actually this is a good topic you're one of the things that the pro regulation people say is that Bitcoin needs this regulation in order to to protect consumers and I think that's completely false what we've seen with bitcoin is that yes it's had all sorts of growing pains there have been hacks and theft and fraud but the industry has been learning very quickly and people are developing technological solutions to these things so whereas before people could get their wallet act very easily now most people use some sort of multi

cig or hardware device and these make people's security far more reliable and it didn't come about through regulation they came about through competition in the marketplace and not only is that are those protections as good as what is in the traditional legacy system but they are far better they're actually Bitcoin companies and exchanges that are using mathematical proofs of their solvency so they are proving that they own the bitcoins that they say they own no one does this in traditional finance there's not a single bank that you can mathematically prove it has the assets that says they do audits but then you're just trusting the auditor over over someone else's word in the Bitcoin industry we have actual mathematical

proof of truth and this is something that that regulators have never even been able to come close to so they need to really if they were wise if they really cared about people and if they really cared about commerce being safe and useful for people they would get the hell out of the way and let this industry actually improve the financial industry in a way that hasn't been done in a hundred years or in forever it really now because with bangs we basically have to mathematical proof that they're insolvent right did their due easy first um oh you know they're sick of her storm like deafened yesterday degree the weak central bank director sets the financial system is strong and remind me of this Minister of Information valley from Iraq right

everything is fine thanks I'm back that but but denied today like the I think it's were of course it's been like this for many weeks now but if anything the Greek consumers lack protection from field and they are they're doomed because there's no other alternative so it's just every everything they accuse bit going off the people that currently have the power in the financial system there are not delivering themselves yeah yeah a real license they can give us a call and we will help them out without with a prop solution for Bitcoin and not with some weird kind of paper trying to regulate it yeah some of those technologies so the technology is being built for Bitcoin are just absolutely

amazing and the financial regulators they don't they they have no idea how useful those things are in securing money in bringing transparency to the to the markets they just don't they don't get it they don't they don't understand multi sig they don't understand you know provable fairness I like yeah provable furnace is a whole nother example like in the gambling industry no one in gambling in the gaming industry which is a very old industry had ever done provable fairness so that someone could go into a casino and a see what the odds of the game were and be know mathematically that they were being acted on that I'd never happened even though every in every

jurisdiction where gaming happens there is heavy regulation and then Bitcoin comes out this this wild west of Finance built by these crypto anarchists and suddenly now now customers have provable fairness they can actually see the odds of a game and they can prove that the odds or what they say they are this is the something regulators never did before and it was brought about through competition in an open marketplace exactly yes and I mean they did worse like they they they pushed out the legal gambling that was there they made it like they push it on the ground and made it invisible for the system that they set up like in the u.s. gambling is very

restricted and I think it's no coincidence that the one of the stealth industries in Bitcoin I think is really Bitcoin gambling I mean people there you don't read a lot of news about it but last I checked there's over 100 Bitcoin gambling websites and the daily volume at least what I could what I could see was sometimes over 100 million dollars that goes around and it's exactly the provable fairness that I think attracts people to it as well as the fact they do that they don't have to show their their passports everywhere or wave with their social security numbers to just have some fun basically yeah she's even worse it's my monopoly by the state yep yeah they really awesome they like and Gamble

is very illegal do it would stay right especially like in the US and in every every state i think in the u.s. there is a state lottery and it's illegal for private companies to run lotteries so basically the state governments make this thing illegal because it's so bad right it's so so morally terrible and then the state does it and they till they collect all the money actually I call it the state lottery around here at Eric oh yes if you translate it really reminds me of when I was living in Norway and the restrictions there are very much on alcohol it's incredible and you actually go out and to find anything stronger than a white wine you have to

go to a store called veen monopole it's the government store for for liquor and it's really surreal and the prices are about triple triple to five times what you can find a Belgium or in the rest of Europe and I think that's kind of the experience from somebody who I don't know lives in Mexico or lives in other countries going to the US like what is this you know or anything like what you say like that this state lottery I mean it makes it more expensive and less fun overall yeah definitely so and maybe we can I talk a bit to you about your new company but first a very short commercial break it just 10 seconds I'd like people to like this video it's very important to me also subscribe to this video and not only that way we can we can spread the message and I also check

out reinvented money that's event i'm organizing in September in Holland on a 26 of September Max Keiser amongst others will speak there so it's very interesting for European people very affordable as well only 60 euros for a early bird ticket okay that was the end of the commercial break and that's not too bad here you have a new adventure and there was more about it yeah so Adam of research will be offering investment research basically and we would not focus exclusively on cryptocurrency but it is going to be a large part of what we do and so yeah I'm excited we came out with a report recently that's going to be a public soon it's called the

sizing up the block sighs debate because it's it's very I think it's important for what's going forward it's it's kind of akin to some of the debates you see in in fiat land like what is the Fed going to do where they going to raise or lower interest rates in the sense that it's going to have whatever decision is going to come out it's going to have a pretty big impact on on what happens and so we did a report on that I'm excited and going forward will be offering trial subscription so people can have a look and decide whether it's it's something that they like and overall the the focus is on on wealth preservation and on really there are these two big trends that I see happen which is on the one

hand we have this gigantic debt bubble which is announcing a new depression and on the other hand we have the technological world that's like brimming with innovation and that's really revolutionising a lot of areas and then the question is like how is this going to work out and how can you position yourself to to do well because I think there's lots of opportunities but it is important to keep the big picture in mind so that's kind of the vision that we have or that the thing that we stand for sounds interesting and this release trial is out already people can can subscribe to get that report or you can

go to adamant research calm and you can sign up and as soon as our trial software is up and running we'll be sending you an invite and you can test out the platform and the report there is a i'll send you the link there is a there is a report out on the block sighs debate I did a I did a little poll in my network to see what people thought I got responses from about minors become miners representing twelve percent of the network Bitcoin companies representing about 100 million dollars of vc investments and then i think by now over five core developers that you know tune in and then i use that on top

of the analysis i already had to come out with an estimate and so far there's things are changing so we might have to revise the estimates but so far i think we'll have an eight megabytes block limit and they'll be integrated into them into the protocol by I think between may and july next year somewhere interesting you do you agree with that a marriage you think it's a good man the technical question of the block size limit is is really interesting has been fascinating to watch I pretty much defer to to the core developers and the other experts on this

but I think there's a lot of smart people that are it's discussing both sides it's definitely something that is being talked about a lot so no one can fault the community for not discussing this in depth mm-hmm okay we already out of time about about now so maybe some final questions or remarks I ops the audience because I know you're watching with the big numbers but please awesome questions for Eric or the other guys yeah I time you look like yeah I got one I don't know if you can tell me any insights but when you look at your volumes on on shape-shift these he Trent like from Bitcoin in 12 coins or vice versa yeah good question it's generally about half and half Bitcoin Dalton all

to Bitcoin during periods when the price of bitcoin is going down people are moving into Bitcoin from alts and vice versa when the price is going up and I'm sounds counterintuitive right like when the price of bitcoin is going down people are leaving alts and buying bitcoins should that mean the price is going up but in reality it's that altcoins are generally far more speculative than Bitcoin they are more volatile so when bitcoin is falling and people are getting more conservative they will sell altcoins first and move into the the safety of Bitcoin or perhaps further into the safety of the of a Fiat or something like that and

when when bitcoins going up people get excited they want to speculate more their risk tolerance goes higher and then then move into alts so while Bitcoin goes up we see the price of alts go up generally faster and the same on the downside and that's pattern is not just something that could be theorized but in the shape shifts transactions we actually see that to be true and the market cap is like shifting like about three percent right the total Bitcoin or the total outgoing cap on top of Bitcoin I see it moving on your coin cap website yeah actually yep twin cap do we have a cool little thing the top called the dominance index which is the percent of all crypto currency market

cap that is Bitcoin right now I think it's like 83 or 84 percent so of all the value of all cryptocurrency bitcoin is 83 or 84 percent of it and all the alts together as the rest when we started that index about a month ago it was at 89 so Bitcoin has a larger portion and since we've seen this little rally in Bitcoin we see a bigger rally and altcoins which confirms what I said before and so the dominance index has fallen because as all to grow bigger proportion of Bitcoin the dominance index falls so that's a very interesting statistic to watch over time yeah i see no to chart there because i love the added um UNS index is there a chart available in the future there will be a

chart right now it's just at the top right and it would also be an API so I can them sizable yeah the API we just released yesterday we just released the documentation of it so i can i can say that over to you right dear and find a question from your side maybe for Eric um yeah I'm fascinated with the the Bitcoin versus altcoin markets and I like I agree that's also what I what I thought happened is that the old coins actors kind of like a pressure valve on top of Bitcoin when pressure rises in Bitcoin people who want like even more excitement and speculation they'll like

they'll then buy into into the old coins I don't know I'm curious if if you see any trends in the in the privacy oriented coins is there something particular or it's in general if is it so that if altcoin prices are rising that you see the volumes rising as well give me the volumes of the privacy coins yeah well I meant like is that it's something that you see in general and then do the privacy coins here to that or are they somehow exceptions because I'm thinking about the you know people want to spend their coins anonymously that there might be a different dynamic there than pure speculation yeah i think the privacy coins have demonstrated a real use case

and the goal of all altcoins right is to figure out a use case then they all claim to have lots of use cases but reality most of them don't and will never but some of them will find niches and the the private coins have found a good niche and so they tend to be more stable than the other alts themselves they're not stable as Bitcoin but they they're more conservative than other alts so yeah certainly there they're one of the more popular and I imagine it's it's because people you know as as people have realized that bitcoin is highly traceable and they desire privacy they move into other technologies that provide that privacy when you say stabled you talk about volume and price or just volumes just talking about price

ok yeah interesting ok cool we got to find a question for you to your and the logo for your website and it's in mountains and we have a dry house came through why the snow go oh well we like the mountains because it represents something solid and secure there's a lot of vaults in mountains I like fake places and i'll let the block chain and so this is kind of a play on that so yeah like I'm stability longevity that's something I always like to think on the long-term I'm not so much of a short-term trader although it is it is

fun and I think it has its place and I do pursue trading sometimes but for the majority of my investment research I focus on the long-term so this is is this a half suggestion you're looking into a mod rakesh maybe level so did you're moving to Switzerland drilling like Erica's in Switzerland and I think it's very mr. Switzerland so my everyone's just going to be in Mountain student in soon I prefer the cloud over over Switzerland but yeah okay every guy just woke a good one final question something just pops to mind I ran on Twitter that Bank of the future as invested in shapes yes i have Simon

Dixon also speaking of my conference and to get with Max and September's I was wondering uh could you tell me a bit more about that cooperation or what what happened there yeah so bank to the future is one of the investors in shape shift so we have a relationship with them and then they I believe sell shares in their fund through their platform so sort of by proxy it's an investment in shape shift as well okay how much you to be invest in shape just I'm not gonna make that public at this time but well okay oh we have announced my mom appreciate a good yeah we've brought your variable so as one of them Festus right and we had him with you of course and on the show and in February and he said he never touched an ultimate now he's investing in shape shift so that's

quite remarkable idea you take the baby good i hope you very anti altcoin as well but I've changed my position somewhat because I think there are most all coins are really stupid most are really stupid and most will go to 0 but there's going to be a number of them that become very useful for something I don't foresee a future where there's only one digital asset there's going to be lots of digital assets that do all sorts of things some will be monies some will be token sum will be equities the Securities and all sorts of things that we can't even imagine yet so as long as there are more than one digital asset in the world people need a people need an easy way to exchange it right okay well thanks so much let's take around if you want officer where we go and go of line

so thanks Eric shapeshifter oh and of course you're part of blocked Road calm and Duty mister of adamant research come right yeah thanks guys good thanks yes jitters