Udi Wertheimer Pitches BNB as 'Hyper-Sound Money'

Transcript

oh hey everyone welcome to this special edition bankless live stream this has never happened before we have udi wertheimer on the bankless podcast i thought i'd never say it udi welcome to bankless man it's great to have you i'm surprised as much as you are it's great to be here thank you for watching guys well this is going to be a lot of fun let me give folks context for this of course as always uh thanks to the sponsors that made this possible gemini balancer ave and uniswap we appreciate you guys

special thanks also to cms holdings he was the person that really made this possible 100k goes to getcoin thanks to his contribution he is funding this episode he wanted it to happen uh and thanks to the bankless dow for deciding where the funds go udi the purpose of this episode i'm told is for you to pitch us on hypersound money that is the binance bnb token can you tell us a bit about that yeah well before i start do you guys want to spend like a couple of minutes um we're just getting ready here this this oh cool this is awesome like does everyone see all of us this is awesome oh yeah i love

this so do you guys want to spend like a couple of minutes talking about like the last 24 hours or a week are we going to ignore they happen because we're live oh let's see that look man this is your agenda so let's talk about that what do you want to talk about well i mean it's exciting it's exciting is it did you see the um uh conspiracy theory going on about um is it about presumably the good uh well that's another one there's there's one about the chinese government trying to affect bitcoin prices in order to liquidate someone specifically uh who oh specifically it's not i mean i don't think so no because i don't have my

positions public on defy so [Laughter] do you own any ens addresses yeah who who owns uh i think someone owns my name it's not me if someone owns it you should have that yeah you feel like you should have that yeah no with three letters it's really expensive but if if the owner of that watches this well we can negotiate something maybe wonder maybe cms holdings will pay for that too look good for rudy cms holdings i know you're listening thanks for that again okay so like really really what do you think what do you think is the cause for the drop if it's not well i think you know it's um

first of all could be this conspiracy theory who knows but i think that um we tend to like try to rationalize those things right like we you see the price go down you're like oh is that because of elon's tweets is that because of the china news is that because of the whatever and um i think the market was just pretty vulnerable and kind of bearish i mean the last couple of months like of course a lot of things were going off and exploding but everyone was you know kind of chilly and and afraid they're kind of there was a lot of just like noise a lot of crazy stuff happened like there were definitely like top signals because like come on like dogecoin derivatives are all of a sudden sustainable

like what is stupid um yeah i mean there's no shortage of top signals but also it's been my opinion that like this the entire five next five years is just going to be top signal after top signal so i wasn't really ready to go at the top ooty do you blame elon musk for this though real time do not i do not no i think i think that honestly maybe i'll use this opportunity to say a few words about that i've seen a lot of people like kind of lashing at elon musk i think it's kind of silly he said what he thinks maybe maybe psyops i don't know but but whatever like um you know he's he's been very supportive of bitcoin specifically and

the cryptocurrency space in general and i think that just slashing out of it is kind of funny like either lisa listen to what the guy has to say or like just leave it alone i don't see why maybe you know i think maybe people can actually learn a thing or two from this guy because he might not be a cryptocurrency expert but he doesn't know a thing or two about um not just money with with paypal but he knows yes but also he knows about things like um you know how memes work and how how people react to stuff and you know he's not he's not stupid right right he didn't get there by accident so i think we can learn

a thing or two but yeah is this is this all our fault i mean didn't we put him on a pedestal and i say we as the the crypto community maybe bitcoin specifically but the crypto community sure we put him on a pedestal when he bought a bunch of bitcoin and added it to tesla's balance sheet i feel what about the argument that we set ourselves up for this we put the guy in a pedestal and now he's like [ __ ] all over the pedestal and people are upset about it yeah i agree with that i agree with that i think that like there's it's kind of it's kind of hard to avoid and i think that similarly you know if he had bought some eth and you know even more ridiculously if he would have bought some cardano

or whatever you would have seen the respective communities reacting the same way pretty much i would expect right like people would be very thrilled about it for a very long time and he will become their hero and then yeah almost almost unavoidably they will be disappointed at some point um and um but i think you know i think this this story probably continues for a while i don't think this is the end of the elon musk story and um oh he's in cryptocurrency he's got plans yeah they're erratic plans and they're perhaps nonsensical but their plans nonetheless like and he's got them something's going on yeah yeah i think people vastly underestimate uh what's what he's planning and it probably isn't necessarily going to be

things that bitcoiners are in love with but um i think he i think he has some things in store probably generally not a lot of plans that bitcoiners are in love with to begin with so well i think i think already i think yeah i think to be did we do do we have do we have like a get coin donation address that we can share with people it would have been awesome if people could send some money to get coin every time you use zing me oh wow how much money can we get in the pot yeah i have to pull my glasses down because my sunglasses are polarized and i can't actually see my second screen davey can't actually see him playing the sunglasses thing he can't actually see his screen when he does that i have my i have my bright and my

brightness set very high so that i can see anything at all david's going to figure that out while he's doing that udi yeah yeah i want to know like the people want to know if this is the end of crypto i mean i've heard it i've heard i heard cryptos not no longer the future crypto so is crypto dead foodie that like this is a pretty big drop there's a lot of people who are new first cycle unicyclers david and i call them they're new to crypto that's a good name they're not funny like this is a concerning drop they were not anticipating this is crypto dead sir answer that for us it isn't um it is a concerning um drop though i can see why someone would

be concerned like especially if it's your first time you're just not used to it but this is how those things kind of work um because the things just not cannot go straight up it's not possible eventually you know we can all be like kind of friends and like say oh we will not sell and promise each other it will never sell but eventually someone sells yeah eventually it goes up too fast and be like oh i said i wasn't gonna sell but that got too fast now i gotta sell yeah yeah and that's kind of why you know all the consensus games are kind of difficult they're not trivial because it's it turns out that you know coordinating between people who have different uh

motivations is kind of difficult um so coordinating no one sells forever is probably not gonna work and it's natural that's fine and it's gonna be deep corrections that's fine too i do not think it's the end there's you know there's a person a certain chance that this is the end and it's the chance always exists i think it's very very small um i think if you're saying you're talking about chances that always exist i want to put on like the i've never put on my eth maxi hat to the nth degree but i want to do that really you haven't not not to the end like not to the complete i've seen that from so i want to put on like the all 17 of my eth maxi hats and and talk about something that i think has like maybe three or four percent

weight to it so here's and i'm also a little bit of a conspiracy theorist and so here's my conspiracy conspiracy about how this market just happened right ether ultrasound money has been just like crushing bitcoin in bitcoin terms for the past like six weeks or something like six very strong green weekly candles there's only been like i think 10 total weeks where ether has been higher than bitcoin and bitcoin terms um and and so like and these also these systems are like alive right they're kind of like live organisms and bitcoin we like suzu talked about how people were flying all across the world to retrieve bitcoin out of cold storage to sell it for ether bitcoins bitcoin was just like flat and also kind of down for the past months like

there was like maxi bitcoin maxi payne happening while ether pitulation perhaps capitulation question mark while ether was just climbing climbing climbing and so i think that bitcoin dumped to stop ether from flipping it wow i described like a two to three percent weight to that belief that's an interesting that's an interesting theory like who who that who can do that who has that's oh i i believe like bitcoin i do not i do not want eve to flip bitcoin so i so i just lift it's the poison pill it makes sense if you don't think about it i will go down with yeah i got a question for you why are

there so many people shilling cat cat coin in the youtube comments do you know anything about this we will never know right like i think that whatever happens in this in this episode i think people are gonna forever overanalyze what's going on sarah do you own behind the scenes answer the question i do not know what cat's coin is i don't even know what it is it's okay c-a-t it's c-a-t-e it's like kate coin but then they've got the cat emojis anyways they're tr they're trying i think i think the three of us are too old for this to be honest no i'm definitely i'm still in my 20s super young sway to all of them david is super young i'm the boomer of bankless if you didn't know now you

know uh ud i tweeted something from you i've like i've maybe done that one other time but i tweeted something yeah what was it in the past week or two you be i i'm paraphrasing here but you basically said even i have to admit that eth has completely slaughtered bitcoin and you said something to the fact that more bitcoiners need to admit this too right and like you just i think you mean the bitcoin price right bitcoin yeah so i think you just showed the ratio you just showed the ratio you kind of let that tweet stand and it was i i felt like you were reflecting some honesty of like what's really going on right that maybe um some bitcoiners are kind of like

plugging their ears on right now like they don't they hear no evil see no evil like they they don't want to see what's happening and you just surface that to them um do you think that this is temporary do you think that this is or or do you think that this there is going to be a flipping and that flipping will be sustained i think that during um during bull markets um and we're kind of slipping into what i meant to say later but let's do that um i think during bull markets um bulma is a war and um i think it's it's it's it's a good way to look at it um the war in the sense that um there's a lot of money coming into the space and and but it's not unlimited there's a

limited amount of a lot of money coming into the space and there are a lot of projects fighting over those inflows and for obvious reasons and and during those um debates and wars and whatever um you can um you can either try to to kind of um actively um pull more of those funds into your um so-called battery and we'll get back to those terms that i liked later or you can not do anything and and bitcoin is designed to not do anything so bitcoin is designed to be

inflexible and being inflexible means that on one hand it cannot create more supply it cannot dampen the effect of the inflows coming in that's good for bitcoin holders but on the other hand it also cannot do anything to become more attractive during those um times where a lot of of funds are coming in into the space everyone else pretty much everyone else can react to the fact that um money is coming into the space and i think that the fact that other and reaction can be a ton of things it can be changing um the monetary properties of the system it can be marketing related it can be um

it can be a ton of reactions uh bitcoin cannot really do any of those things so i think it for for that reason it is very reasonable to expect during bull markets um other coins will outpace bitcoin and they will continue to outpace bitcoin as long as the bull market continues um putting you know you can put like a specific um goal like the flipping and say does it happen does it not happen but honestly i think it's very arbitrary like the bull market can stop before the bull market can stop afterwards and that in my opinion is going to be kind of what determines what this looks like um but the question

is um not uh like you can in that sense you can look at coins that are not bitcoin as sort of leveraged plays right you can you can hold bitcoin as a kind of um um more solid uh somewhat less risky investment um and but also with with a lower uh potential return and you can look at the other coins and they have somewhat derivative like qualities to them and they can have higher returns they also can have higher risk we saw that for example yesterday um bitcoin took the smallest percentage heads

on one hand um like pretty much all of the market not all of it but the the most of the market took a much higher percentage yet on the other hand um i would assume most all coins i think are higher now um than they were when bitcoin was last at 40k wait used to the total all coins so you just triggered me it just triggered me yeah hold on i know is an altcoin sir well how do you how do you define altcoin i don't i think it's a meaningless definition personally i i think it's an outdated definition of a time when there was bitcoin and there were all of these forks of bitcoin and they were by definition alts of bitcoin that's what i think you call

alcohol all coins are bitcoin forks or clones litecoin is an altcoin yeah right definitely uh dogecoin is an altcoin ether is not an altcoin and i feel like it's a it's a relic type of definition a world that is like pre-defined pre-understanding these assets as capital assets or commodities and and also store values so you could argue you could argue that you could argue that i think that um you know words uh language terms they mostly stem from culture and not from uh necessarily being you know the best scientifically correct way to describe something um and and when we look at um i think the reason that ethereum has

been or ether specifically has been called an altcoin is because it presented itself as an old coin early on um if you look at the first the early days of ethereum it was literally um being sold as bitcoin 2.0 that's literally how it was marketed so i think that's where the the term old coin is that wrong came from yeah i'm not saying it's wrong i'm not i'm not going to i'm not i'm not assigning um morality to to these things i'm just i'm just telling you the facts the facts are that that this is how ethereum was presented and i think this is why it's been called an altcoin and you could argue maybe you know maybe it's not an alternative coin but that's not why it's it's called now it's called an old coin because of the culture that started

when ethereum started i'm curious here so you said during a bull market it's like war right it's all about war like one coin versus another one community versus another uh do you have a side in this war whose side are you on um that's a great question i'm on my own side and i think that i think that's the most reasonable position for most people to be in um and and and i do so i do believe that bitcoin can be very valuable but to the world and and i think it can offer something that other chains cannot including ether um but you know either it succeeds or it

doesn't that's not my the entirety of my goal in life i think people are um um there's this term of bitcoin maximalist honestly i do not like the term i know that some people kind of adopted it i never did i never call myself a bitcoin maximalist whenever someone tells me oh you're just a bitcoin maximizer say i don't think i am i don't know like it depends on what you mean but i don't think i am i happen to think that bitcoin is the most interesting um thing that's available in what we call crypto but um it's not the only thing and and and like you know the the the one

example i try to kind of tell people usually on the bitcoin side by the way because i don't think it's i think it's very interesting to people on the other side but on the bitcoin side i try to tell people that and i assume some bitcoiners are kind of listening to this now so i'm trying to tell people we'll assume that apple tomorrow announces that they're going to issue their stock on some blockchain i don't know why but assume they did and if they did that then it immediately becomes the largest market cap crypto right and it's immediately going to be put at the top of coin market cap so if that happens something changed uh the did um did your perception of bitcoin change did your perception of the

cryptocurrency space changed i i don't know like what what does that even mean so just the the assumption that nothing can ever be bigger than bitcoin in on the website that's called coinmarketcap.com is kind of sort of like it depends on what they choose to list there right so um you know there's no way that bitcoin is going to be the biggest asset in the world forever i think that's unlikely i don't see why anyone would think that um so if that's the goal like be the top asset ever it seems tough to achieve so like you know i i think people can

accept that they're going to be other things um uh there already are like a lot of it's it's a funny position you know because i know a lot of bitcoiners that i know like what how do you define a bitcoiner is that someone who owns bitcoin so a lot of those bitcoiners that i know they also have other assets like they own an apartment for example they own maybe some stocks they do not they own some clothes right there's this joke about not owning a car not owning clothes and not owning chairs which i mean it's a funny joke but it's i hope i hope no one's walking around naked because because they want to buy as many bitcoins as possible so so it's it's it's just not realistic

this idea that oh i only own bitcoin i think very few people actually think that and then you know once you accept that other assets exist in the world and some of them might be digital um i guess it depends i don't see a reason to only hold bitcoin if that's the question so udi the uh the youtube comments is once again clamoring for our conversation around b and b as hypersound money and right right let me let me do some extrapolation because you you think that you know perhaps there's one day where bitcoin is you know not going to be the number one crypto asset i personally am of the disposition that one day ultrasound money will become the number one like asset in the world just because of the nature of ultrasound bunny

but i'm willing to take my ethereum maxi cap off because if you're telling me that there's this thing called hypersound money which could in theory go even more ultra than ultrasound money like i gotta for my for the sake of my bags and for the sake of my kid's future like i gotta listen man so like what what's hypersound money and like because i'm trying to get sold on this quick give it drop the elf right right so look i think um i'm i think i i might try to recap a little bit um from the justin drake episode because maybe some of the people how many times did you listen to that just one time or like four times no i i i talked to justin i talked to justin about this before i think it was before

he recorded it justin talked to you before he talked to us did you give him the idea no i'm sh i'm sure are you the originator of ultrasound so you know i i don't think so i don't think so no no what happened was um i didn't i did i did talk to justin a little bit so i and and he showed me you know the materials uh like the blog post or whatever it was um and um so i i wasn't foreign to the ideas when when i when i first viewed the episode or or listened to the episode um i thought it was good i thought it was a good one but i want to kind of recap uh quickly because i assume some people are watching watching this now did not watch it because they're probably like

from the bitcoin side of things well there's also this like apparently this cat coin community that i think you can assume did not listen to the ultrasound money episode they need some help too right so i actually thought it was a pretty good analogy that said that like um uh the battery would be um the value that's to be stored in whatever asset um we're talking about and you can put like the asset itself isn't the value the asset represents the value you can put value or or quote unquote energy into that that battery which means that each unit will be worth more or you can take value out of it which is what happens when people sell and

and take their dollars or whatever it is out of the system um and and then there's less energy in that battery and i guess um i guess this concept is familiar to a lot of people and what justin did is he kind of added this engine to to this system where he says well the battery does not cannot stand alone there also needs to be an engine um that needs to function somehow and then that engine can help charge the battery um and specifically the engine design the engine can be more or less efficient right and ideally you want an efficiency right right so that engine would be um in the case of uh bitcoin

ethereum it would be the consensus mechanism or the blockchain if you will or whatever you call it um and you would say well presumably those assets like like bitcoin and ether cannot necessarily really function if the engine for some reason stops working because they're not individual things that just live in in the physical world they're not atoms they're they need the blockchain to function and if something happens to that then they they might lose their value and i think sidebar i think there's an interesting point there because um there's this assumption that uh the the goal of the engine is to keep

maintain the value of uh the battery i think that's arguable um specifically the engine what it does is it helps or it allows um creating transactions it allows moving funds between people and if the engine malfunctions then you get things like rollbacks like you can find yourself in a situation where you tried to create a transaction then someone rolled that transaction back and that's with proof of work that's a problem there's no finality there and technically someone could try to roll back a transaction um you know after it happened and and then someone might be in problem um but that's not the same as the asset losing value and i think

um i think there is a reasonable criticism against proof of work which is people currently expect that they just work and they mostly only work right now because no one tried to attack them really very seriously there was never a super serious attack on the proof-of-work mechanism in bitcoin but it could you could imagine a situation where there is an an imbalance with the fees which is what justin calls a few the fees that enter the engine in order to keep it working you can't you could imagine a situation where there's not enough fees and not enough fuel in order to keep that engine rolling

um and then what happens though is not that bitcoin collapses what happens though is that the the transaction mechanism might um suffer and and the question then is are people able to adapt to that are people able to adapt to a situation where the engine is not super reliable and that can be you know using layer two networks or whatever you would use in order to not rely on the engine to always be there for you and that's uh that's a question that's a question right which we don't know the answer to because we never

tried and and indeed um it's concerning that we don't know uh what things are gonna look like um when fees are going to be different but i just wanted to point out that um the if the if the engine has issues with fuel that does not necessarily mean that the battery dies only means that transactions might might um have some irregularities but that does not necessarily mean that value comes out of the system it might anyways swap out your vehicles but go on sure it might but but then but then it depends on what you use it for it depends on what you use it for um so anyways um

the thing though um with bitcoin if we have this issue with the fuel then really the engine might stop uh ethereum post um eip1559 kind of changes that the fuel in the form of uh transactions which justin kind of calls great b fuel um because it's not inflation it's not it's reliable which would be uh grade a fuel so that that fuel is not used necessarily to run the engine it's kind of used to negate um inflation it's used to negate uh the the sourcing of gravity a fuel

which would be inflation um and that is great in in theory but it suffers from the same problem that bitcoin suffers from which is that those fees are still unexpected the the the amount of fees or the amount of fuel of of type b fuel rate b fuel that you can source is is unpredictable and unexpected so what ethereum is is kind of doing it says okay because we cannot predict the supply of great b fuel uh we will not make the system dependent on it we will not hold to grain to a hold if we have

uh you know a lack of great b fuel lack of transaction fees but we will um increase the supply if that happens um and and that's fine that's that's a reasonable um you know it's a reasonable uh trade-off it does mean however that ethereum is only as ultrasound as it can source grade b fuel and now you might say okay so i look at the what does it mean it's only as ultrasound as it can source transaction fees and anyone who's anywhere around the cryptocurrency space lately can can tell that ethereum has an abundance of transaction fees that doesn't seem to

be an issue like people are willing to pay i can show that yeah there you go yeah yeah so so there's yes so there's there's no doubt that people are willing to pay transaction fees on ethereum right now the question is does that continue forever and in order to answer that you have to answer the question of why are people paying those fees right now um should we just pause here david are the cat people fine yeah cat people are gone cat people are gone

we lost them because that was a great articulation of the justin drake episode right like well said is that why is that way that way we lost them yeah i mean maybe they were like not right i don't know yeah anyways so the the issue with the with the fees is that right now people are paying them arguably um because they can't find the same level of service anywhere else they're willing to pay those fees because that's that's where they find what they need whether it's liquidity or it's it's the specific tokens they're looking for

or whatever it is but then in order to be able to continue and that was if you were around in 2017 for example then that the case was pretty similar back then um it was just for other things people were not sourcing liquidity on ethereum they were um participating in icos on ethereum and and the gas fees shot up uh back then as well and what happened over time is that the gas fee is shot back down and like a naive explanation for that would be well it's because the bull market ended but and and that's concerning too but i i'm not sure that's the reason i think that

what happened was that this use case of icos moved elsewhere so people who wanted to raise funds in order to sell tokens did not stop doing that they in fact continue doing that for the entire time they're doing that now too but they're not doing that in the same way they do not use the same inefficient smart contract based ico sales that they used to use then because it turns out that they do not provide any extra value over just doing it somewhere else there's no uh network effect in doing the the sale on top of ethereum if that's too expensive you can just do it you know on a web page or you can do it

on on another platform or you can do it on a telegram chat people will send you an address and you will send them the coins and then they will send you back the tokens whatever it is it turns out that that you don't need um the the inefficiencies of doing that in the in a permissionless um uh smart contract system so okay so the the the question becomes does that happen again does that happen again that the use case that currently drives fees up uh moves somewhere else because if it does then um there is no um mechanism that burns the supply on ethereum

fees can drop back down and then the supply can start going back up which might be okay but then it's not ultrasound money it's just inflationary money um to that point by the way and you guys can can stop me it's not a speech so it's okay all right so i i want to pause and maybe recap so far right yeah fees are high right now you recognize that you see that we recognize this is what that eps are high right now blocks based demand is very high you're posting a question uh like that's true right now but i think what you're saying is each block space is really a commodity

like that demand could shift anywhere else and we saw it shift somewhere else or like evaporate into thin air in 2018 2019 with the last bear cycle and i think you're setting us up to say something to the effect of well all of that demand on ethereum right now is temporal that's going to move someplace else maybe to a hypersound money platform i feel like that's what you're that's really what you're setting up is that the case um i'm setting us up to the case that it might happen not necessarily to one specific blockchain but i'm setting us up to the

fact that we cannot predict how people are going to continue to use ethereum as a platform uh a year from now all we can do is look at the past and see well so far things that found use case or ethereum eventually moved somewhere else icos became ieos and then ido's and they just moved somewhere else um so isn't that what's supposed to happen right yeah isn't it isn't it supposed to be the case that things that need to be maximally decentralized maximally permissionless and maximally censorship resistant will stay on something like ethereum which has those characteristics and those

attributes economic activity that doesn't require those attributes we'll just move somewhere else to a side chain to a binance chain to a tron to a google spreadsheet which by the way i think you've compared ethereum to before sort of a shared spreadsheet right um but doesn't that one discount the fact that like that hasn't happened at all we're seeing a massive amount of blocks based demand on ethereum repeated in cycles that no other chain is able to replicate and b doesn't that totally commoditize what ethereum is offering

versus like ethereum block space is different than binance block space or coinbase block space or crop crack in block space right those are like centralized ledgers we had those before we had those before bitcoin we had those before any crypto networks the new thing that we're creating is a decentralized consensus shared ledger system right you can't just replicate that in these other commodity systems go so um the thing is people are replicating that and we don't have to go as far as uh bsc um we can go to polygon on on a quote-unquote on ethereum

um just in the last few days and weeks we can see the chart this is this is by the way uh bsc versus polygon so like polygons catching up do you have do you have that polygon versus or bsc versus ethereum for example because what you'll find are you talking about in terms of bnb asset price versus ethereum asset price ether asset price no i'm talking in the terms of a number of transactions yeah okay so but but pause there for a second because a transaction on ethereum is different than a transaction on binance chain is different than a transaction on

coinbase's central ledger right like why not just compare transactions on coinbase to the coinbases database that's not like we can't see that's not public to transactions on ethereum if you're going to compare transaction like transaction volume is the wrong metric right like aws does a ton of transactions the visa network does a ton of transactions paypal does a ton of transactions uh feels like you're comparing apples to oranges here i think that um they're obviously um not the same in the sense that um they're not limited right like you

can there's no limit to how many transaction you can do on or there's a limit but it's much higher to how much transactions you could do on the cbsc which means that if both are maximally used then biden's chain will have more transactions um the etherium chain let's say it's maximally used and it is um then it will have a limited amount of transactions not more than but it will have maximized transaction fees it will capture more fees for the same number of transactions so let's let's so let's talk about that um let's talk about that because the way that bsc does that is very different um the way bc does that is they recognizes

that in order the fees that come into the system are not predictable um and because they're not predictable um you don't want to to use them in order to to [Music] affect the monetary supply of the system um or or more correctly you don't want to rely on them in order to be deflationary so what bnb does um it kind of flips the whole thing on its head instead of being um a consensus engine that is a consensus mechanism that is the engine the engine for bnb is actually something completely different the engine for bnb is

binance it's binance um the business binance the community binding finance whatever you want to call it the bank you can call it whatever you want um i think it's bigger than that i think binance is bigger than um you know a data center uh data centers are you know a technical thing um you're not connected banks are you're not concerned about binance being bigger than a data center than a bank like you're not i thought this whole movement was about i think you're trying to make centralization so don't we have to when we talk about money to make a moral case yeah i don't think we have to but we can

um so i think that when i mean i don't think money is moral you know there's this um there's the saying that um i know it in hebrew i don't know what it would be in english but you know money is money uh when when someone's someone reaches up to you and and hands you some money you're not going to look back at how we got this money because if you would it's it's going to be very difficult for you to you know it is what it is well when i stand i don't think about morals i just follow a fall in line and there's so many things i don't think about that i do that's moral but i don't think about it because it's second nature same thing right right so i think so we can talk we can talk about um is it moral to use something like bsc

and i think that um it kind of depends on what you want to do but if your goal is to have this so-called decentralized system the centralized financial system then you kind of very very very quickly you stumble upon trade-offs and very quickly you realize that you cannot or at least for now you do not know how to be um completely decentralized right there are those one example the most recent debate around that is probably the polygon stuff and how um you know some people are

saying well polygon is not decentralized and there's this multi-sig uh admin key and there's this um the way that the assets are held and people can argue on that to no end but i think the pragmatic view is you know this is the best way we can make it work for now and going forward i mean we'll see we'll see what we can improve but that's the best way we know to do it for now it's not as bad as some other things might have been so you know the way i think of polygon is like it's it's kind of overflow on ethereum so ethereum's a settlement layer once it gets too expensive the traffic overflows to polygon uh bsc binance marching

is similar right it is taking some of the uh traffic from ethereum and offloading that to to um binance chain effectively but still like the highest value transactions the most decentralized transactions the bulk of actual payment for block space is happening on the most decentralized permissionless defy system that is ethereum so it feels more like binance how do you how do you how do how do you get to the number because you see that um you know you see that um cake swap or pancake swap managed to you know kind of flip unit swap for for quite a while and that's confused like no not in fees not in fees i mean well it definitely

definitely in volume that's the activity right i think there was a day where pancake swap did for the day it did flip uh uniswapping fees um maybe i wouldn't be surprised i wouldn't be surprised to see something on polygon flip something on uh ethereum oh absolutely hang on because on on polygon it's a little bit different than on binance marketing with binance marching like the the straight up transaction fees both at the protocol layer but also with pancake swap like everything collapses down to cz at the end of the day and we know cz is a big old wash trader like he does it on binance all the time why wouldn't he do it on binance and so when we so when we see hold on when we see pancake swap generating a ton of fees i'm like oh is it real

great the pcz is just taking money out of one pocket and just putting it into the other pocket and now we have you know the pancake swap doing more fee revenue than uniswap and that's why these that's why money is moral because it has these political arguments baked into it because when you see volume and fees on uniswap you know there's no what there's no one with the incentives to fake that no one's going to burn cash just to pump up the volumes on unit swap that's why it's completely organic i don't so if there's someone who has the incentive to you know pump up the numbers of the binance chain pancake swap then there's certainly someone who has the same incentives for uniswap the question

is can they pay so much money because it's going to be more expensive on ethereum i do not think that that it would make sense to say that there are no one who has the incentive with um ethereum-based uh projects that most certainly is who's gonna pay the gas the difference is gonna be yeah it's gonna be more expensive so what's so so what's um the way that ethereum projects kind of fixed that very early on is that they said okay we're going to do those subsidies i don't mean uniswap specifically but they said okay we're going to do those subsidies they're going to encourage people to use the project and this will well for one thing it's going to kick the numbers up

but also it's going to create the community around that project um and when you look at for example binance chain you can see that they did exactly the same so you could argue oh maybe it's cz moving money from one pocket to the other but i think you can be pretty sure that if cz offers um incentives then the people who are taking it are not going to be just cz assuming that you know that anyone could take up on it um then i don't see any reason why you would think that it's only cz picking up on his own mind the main driver to those apps is those incentives we all know this

um what brings traffic especially at this point in time is mostly those incentives and we know that those incentives exist on on cz's bsc so i think we know fairly for certain that the traffic there is real and and and and and organic because we know people are going to take up on those incentives we don't need to be let's assume let's guessing that let's let's suspend our doubt for a minute let's assume all of that traffic was a hundred percent legit real i still don't think it takes anything away from ethereum if anything oh it does not finance chain is competing with uh other layer twos or side chains like polygon and coinbase centralized

exchanges like coinbase and kraken and even its own like binance centralized chain it's not competing against ethereum in fact it's like additive to ethereum because guess what binance chain did just adopted the evm and so like evm is an ethereum standard that further strengthens the tooling and infrastructure around ethereum like interesting ones that binance copied icos off ethereum to ieos on binance it's just doing the same thing just following in the wake of ultrasound money i don't see how a hyper we're not disagreeing yeah it could be leading we're not disagreeing well what is hypersound money then because i we need to we need to understand that before we leave this live stream for sure yeah yeah so we're we're not we're not

disagreeing on um on ethereum and finance marching not competing i i totally agree with you i think that that there's um no way that they two can compete um because they each offer very different things so the the thing that what's that they each offer the evm though those are very very much the same things i mean how can you say that they offer very different things when when b at binance smart chain is just a fork off of death it's literally just ethereum i thought i thought that was what you were saying they're both offering different things they're they're both offering different things because uh it's not about the technology it's not about the the code

base that you fork um just like you know if if you fork bitcoin and call it dogecoin they're not gonna be the same thing um deutsche is very interesting in my opinion but it's not going to be the same thing as bitcoin similarly if you fork the code base of ethereum you don't you don't get an exact copy of ethereum um because you know you don't have the same community you don't have the same permissionlessness you don't have the same engine we talked about it's a different beast so i don't think they're the same um the the the thing that is different however is um the way that binding smart chain can attract activity and activity onto

its ecosystem with apps so on um what i started saying before is for b and b specifically b and b the asset so similarly to how for east the engine would be the ethereum blockchain for b and b um the engine would be binance itself and the way that binance itself gets fueled is also by fees but those are not the binance market fees those are the finance uh exchange fees which are pretty are a lot that's a lot of fees that's a lot of fees that's a very that's a very very uh healthy business and um and violence actually committed to

burn a hundred million uh bnb over um a certain period of time by taking those um fees and burning some of them not all of them the minimum that they promised to burn is i think it's 20 but recently it has been more than that and um they're going to continue to do that until they burn uh 100 million tokens of the supply what does that mean that means one you are guaranteed to have a deflationary asset because bnb does not inflate there's simply no way to inflate it um it does burn cheese wait there's no way to inflate bnb what if cz wills it well

so that's that's that's an interesting question i kind of what i tend to do is i tend to kind of um try to you know look at what the various communities are talking about and kind of trying because that's the only thing you can do kind of trying to assume or understand if they're going to back their promises so if you look at something like ethereum mostly for most of spheres history um it kind of matched that idea of not inflating the supply more than um than was originally planned um so uh i think that the the rewards were cut down to was it two-thirds or something around that uh

twice i believe five ether per block three ether per block to where we are at right now two ether per block yeah right right okay so yeah around around that and um but then um the theorem community actually did something kind of under the radar which was increasing the supply for what we call the merge or for ethereum 2.0 which actually increases the inflation schedule um because right now at this moment we have the proof of work network that is uh inflating as usual and we also have the proof of stake network that adds inflation um to the proof of uh work network and the two will soon be merged um so and then and then insurance goes to

below one percent ultrasound issuance the thing the thing with ethereum as we said the the issuance is the issuance um the issuance is going to stay what it is it's going to say state the increase the increased pace that we talked about but um ethereum can hope that the uh fees are going to sustain themselves and then that will negate the effect of that increase in fees and in inflation and maybe negate the the effect of the entire um inflation uh supply just like how i hope it's possible cz burns b and b every single quarter i hope he does figures exactly exactly well we agree

uh we kind of we kind of we're kind of basing that on hope uh we're basing um it's ethereum we're hoping right that no one increases the inflation schedule again it it ethereum already did it once and we're hoping it doesn't do it again um and we're different we're hoping that they don't inflate the supply but we know that both have communities that have um for many years um supported um you know this meme about not increasing the supply i think that the theorem kind of makes it more difficult because you don't know how many exactly exist without really delving into the details you can i'm not saying it's impossible you can you really kind of have to delve into the details um

actually most of the you know most of the counters of the ethereum supply right now will not even include the supply on the beacon chain even though it's going to be merged very soon so it's it's it's not easy to even know what the number is on bnb it's like it's trivial there are 200 million 100 million of them are gonna be burned uh and and then there will be 100 million million yet um if if cz tries to change that of course he might anyone could try to change it if he tries to change that then he is going to stand in front of a community that is pretty strongly aligned um with a very clear meme of having exactly 100 million tokens as the supply what's that what's the security i know right now what's the current supply

i believe it's 117 million and something yeah that's around 100 so that's right with the others so with specifically 115.9 million does that include the um beacon chain no because they're because they're non-fundable yet once they're once once so fundamentally impossible then we can talk right well but we know so you see we're talking though about about you know ethereum in in a year from now right where things are going to happen and um and the thing is going to be a bit different and i think that the merge is a clear case clear example of how the ethereum supply or the ethereum um inflation rate can sometimes go up

because it can go up one time specifically as a means to an end to make it reduce the most ever the largest number possible ever and so like while while they're it's like it's actually not even the only time that like issuance actually increased because there's a variance in block supply and so while monetary policy bitcoin does this too yeah right just like things as a means to an end it actually is as a a strategy to reduce it to its most minimum number ever possible making ether hashtag ultrasound money um the the proof of stake thing does not make the the uh supply any smaller it

clearly only makes it bigger what makes the supply may be smaller is vip1559 right you could you know you could implement it without proof of statement possible yeah proof of stake is going to eliminate all the proof of work so you're talking about a temporary slide yes but like if you look yeah over the three to five year time horizon right issuance is going to be way down we were talking about something that's that's very temporary right and i would say within the social contract of the theorem this is the part that i think is different right so if you call something like bnb money i'll agree a broad definition of money it is a money where is it a money it's a money in the binance economy in the binance casino it would

be as if a wells fargo you know issued their stock basically and said this stock is now a money that you can use at all of our bank branches right and like you can use it in our exchange too and we call this wells fargo bucks it's money who can change it shareholders of wells fargo right so like so like it's different it's a different thing it's you're talking about the social consensus of an entire network that is backed in the same way that uh bitcoin is back which is ethereum versus one person who can change issuance or change the supply or be put in jail or undergo regulatory scrutiny and everything could change

what we're comparing is something that is fundamentally decentralized to something that is centralized and it's a false equivalence i agree broad definitely i hope first of all i hope no one goes i hope no one is put in jail um i i i think that all of us in the cryptocurrency space are kind of pioneers like none of us ends up in jail for experimenting with this stuff and i i don't think that anyone will end up in jail for experience i hope stuff that none of us um as well yes but um i think that binance definitely has different trade-offs you can use bnb for a lot of things uh not just the casino because you know definitely exists it's huge um but that's not the only thing you can

use bnb for you can you know you can you can buy flights in hotel rooms with b b you can do a lot of you know you can use your credit card and pay for it with bnb you can do all those things like you can do with these like you can do with um a lot of other things but i would say what you can do with eth sure sure yeah but what what can you do with eve that you cannot do with b b eth is a permissionless barrier asset in the same way that bitcoin is even it's more similar to gold than it is to fiat binance is more similar to casino chips it's in fiat it's not about what can you do it's about the assurances that you have that people can't do to you

well but you don't have those assurances anything because we know that this high was increased hard disagree yeah this is a fact this is a fact that the supply increased slightly no no we know i mean i keep saying the supply of course means the issue in schedule but we know we know that it happened um we know that happens so we know that it's possible we you know we can't say that it's not possible obviously if you know cz is going to try to increase the bnb supply he's not going to send a message on telegram to his uh telegram finance group and say hey guys i increased the supply obviously there's going to be a big campaign about how this is very important for the binance ecosystem it's going to be temporary and they're going to burn it all back eventually and the reasons for

that is because they're going to make those amazing big changes and of course those are how political changes happen um you cannot predict those political uh changes uh i don't think it's possible the the the reason that bitcoin is um um maybe may be different is because um you know the the the community is so obsessed with that number with that mean number of 21 million i think it's going to very very very difficult to change their minds um and similarly the bnb community is you know very familiar with those numbers 200 million is the total supply of airbnb 100 million are going to be burned

that's it people are fairly familiar with that on ethereum if you ask most people they probably wouldn't even know that the issuance the the issuance rate for ethereum actually increased uh this year they probably don't know this um but it happened so i think it kind of shows you that some pretty good things that happened i i actually so i know i don't i agree with you it's like so i i don't think people know about ether at all ethers monetary i don't think people know ultrasound money at all i think very few of us do yeah and like if they did eat would be at 20k right now to be honest right like so uh i don't think people know

that ether is going into like the net negative issuance uh category i don't think they know that the ethereum network is producing 50 million dollars a week and a large portion of that is going to burn and like be deflationary on ether one thing i want to get back to though is like we're not just talking about credibility of issuance but it's also credibility of the transactions when i make a transaction on binance smart chain cz can reverse that transaction with a phone call right like when i make a transaction on ethereum no one can do that that's the difference between a network that is censorship resistant peer-to-peer and a network that is centralized and

controlled by a very small validator set and i have to push back i have to push back against that cz cannot just um roll back transactions on on um on finance change first of all i think he could make a phone call to a group of the validators that the binance community has elected the finances collective sure yeah sorry telegram message discord text sorry that's boomer ryan again look so here's the thing you know you you guys probably know that a lot of people in the cryptocurrency space tend to like kind of say well bitcoin maximalists they don't know what they're talking about they don't know those other systems they never even

tried them they don't know what's going on there they don't understand the incentives there and then just making uninformed jokes about things they don't understand and i guess that's kind of what i'm going through here so i guess where i'm going with this is um ethereum maximus are very similar to this in many ways and people who tried um blind and smart chain i think would find not that it's perfect because it's definitely not perfect i think they would find that first of all it's it's very clear that the valders are not um down the hall from from cz's office that's very clear um because the just because of the way that it works metaphor um yeah but it's it's just it's just not

the way it works so there are actual incentives to being a valuer abundance chain there is actual competition on becoming a validator in the binary smart chain and whether or not like you know ethereum maxies are like a fractal off of bitcoin maxies and then anything after ethereum the ethereum axes are like no that makes no sense in the way that bitcoin maxies are to ethereum and then it just goes down the lines like then then the binance smart chain people turn to like polka dot and be like well that makes no sense and then whatever it keeps on going like then it would get to guardano and carter was like well nothing beyond cardano makes sense at some point like in the in the like the human centipede of like maximalism [ __ ] coinage at some point someone is right as in

like no one further than me makes any sense and everyone up above me is just too much of a maximalist at some point there's a sweet spot and that actually doesn't exterior i actually i actually don't think so there's i think it's pretty clear that there's not gonna be a point where um everyone else below that level is necessarily definitely wrong about all the things i think i think that's almost for sure not true um even in the most ridiculous blockchains out there you can find things that are useful ethereum definitely did not come up with the idea of burning fees for example a bunch of others did that eos tried to do that and say well we're

going to kill ethereum by burning fees that didn't work but but the the idea was definitely adopted by the ethereum community that's how it should be so i don't think you could say like eos is like like bnb is just eos with binance uh backing it right it's like is like it's just eos that people use so you can you know you can even yes with an evs yes yes yeah yeah so you can you know you can kind of make fun of it and say oh it's just it's just eos but i think i think it's clear that there's more than that um going on at binance marching because just because of the sheer volumes and the sheer number of people using it and you can see that people are using it

just because like you know i'm not even i'm not even gonna try to tell you that i think that projects like uh what's it's called like safe moon would be something that i recommend that people take part of um i think i got an option but i got a question for you hey yeah you took off the sunglasses it must be big yeah well it comes it comes from the uh it comes from the youtube comments this is franco m and he made it he made a comparison that i really like he goes btc is to doge as eth is to bnb agree or disagree um how i i wonder how deep i want to go into this because i do agree um and and i don't think that's um

i think you shouldn't underestimate it though i definitely do not understand it's doge that might that might seem i could be couldn't be convinced that doge is like bitcoins literally bitcoin silver in the way that litecoin wished it was the the hyper sound meme or memory or whatever it is i think that you know there's um and i think that a lot of people in ethereum um kind of understand that that there is um this idea of uh community coins or creator coins or influencer coins and i think that um a lot of people underestimate how big those can be and um something like dogecoin can be argued to be you know an influencer coin of the one

and only elon musk and then and then you should have to ask yourself like how big do you think elon musk can make it be um and i think that i've seen some people make uh in my opinion the mistake of saying well this could threaten bitcoin in my opinion it could threaten the entire uh cryptocurrency industry because um if you think about um if you think about how those uh wars of inflows are going to work uh if you come to someone like elon musk i would assume that has to ask himself like do i really want to put um all of my resources and all of my all of the um you know all the investors

i have access to do i have to put all that into bitcoin or do i want to put all that into ethereum or do i want to you know create my own thing that i can control and i think that people like that the answer is almost obvious what they're going to choose and then the question is well are you sure that something like ethereum can be bigger than you know elon musk bringing all of his traditional friends into the system i'm not sure i don't know i think elon musk is coming to ethereum i think he's already we'll see he might be i don't i just don't know he's already is he here on this livestream already all right guys

bringing our next guest elon musk [Laughter] does he have like sunglasses on no he's at david's airbnb right now hopefully i think yeah sorry i think that um it's a long discussion but i think that uh i i wouldn't underestimate i want to underestimate what's going on there you've articulated this well you know i think we've gotta start thinking about closing this this up i'm gonna throw your thoughts at you and actually see like maybe disagree or agree right so like here are my thoughts hearing the pitch for bnb as hypersound money right so first thing

is i would not call myself an ethereum maximalist right more of a decentralization maximalist a bankless maximalist if you will right so like i'll say that um i also believe in a multi-chain future right so polygon is a chain binance is a chain there are side chains there are also layer twos that are secured by something like ethereum right so like i also believe in a multi-chain future um i think that b and b binance chain binance chain itself will ultimately find itself competing against not ethereum but other side chains and and layer twos right so like you could see that in what's happening with polygon and matic like traffic is outflowing buying it

smart chain right now it's inflowing to polygon and matic and like what's the difference between polygon and binance chain like maybe not a lot you could political alignment with ethereum political alignment both are kind of side chains but like the last thing i'll say is i actually agree with you that bnb is a reasonably good asset and a money it's just a casino money the reason it's a reasonably good asset is because i think coinbase stock is a reasonably good asset too like to your point finance the company the entity the exchange the casino owned by cz and crew is like a hugely profitable business why would you not want to own that thing as a profit maximalist who believes in crypto

it's going to do well it's a new crypto bank right when we say money though it is a money that is exclusive to the binance economy it is not a money in the same way that bitcoin or gold or ether our money backed by social consensus of a decentralized network it is money inside of a casino so transactions don't have the same settlement guarantees the issuance policy does not have the same settlement guarantees and i think there's probably an upper limit to what that money is will people like um brian armstrong from coinbase be really excited about storing his wealth in bnb token versus bitcoin and eth probably not he's probably gonna store his his wealth in bitcoin

eth and coinbase shares right so like there is a limited surface area for something like bnb to exist as money so overall like i hear what you're saying about hypersound money but like i would put the money in like air quotes it's kind of money hypersound casino coins okay i'll i'll buy that oh i'll respond to that um that i think uh you're not wrong on pretty much all of your points and i think that the thing that people might be missing is that this is where money is going money um is going to be um elon coins and cz coins and and um youtuber coins and tick tocker

coins this is what it's going to look like um and you you you might say well um bsc is more likely to compete against ethereum side chains than ethereum itself i kind of agree with that the question is are those ethereum situations not going to be bigger than ethereum itself and i think that all evidence points to them being bigger because they're they're already attracting more volume or just transaction volume they're already i'm attracting more people who use them so so it seems like they're in many metrics already bigger and i think that they'll continue to be bigger simply because they're not capped and you can bring outside

uh influence like you know a youtuber has his own audience and this youtuber can onboard those people on his own platform if he wants to for example i think you're going to see more and more of those things and the question is can ethereum compete with that i don't think it should i think ethereum is great without competing with that but i don't think it can be as big as that and i think that's kind of what something like uh binance's thing is showing us that those things can very quickly grow from zero to bigger than ethereum in a few months and this is going to happen again this is not the last time that this is happening it's going to happen again again and again

with other coins with other entities with other individuals probably and this does not make ethereum less valuable in my opinion but it does pose a question of whether ethereum is going to be bigger than those i think it seems like it's already not so i don't think it's going to be fascinating thesis at the end udi uh if influencer coins are the next big thing when we coin sir no no i do not have the unfortunately i do not have the following and audience that will be required to to make and plus people watching this stream right now that's pretty good

showing i don't know i think you've got somebody some people following you you got to start oh yeah we've got we've got we're dropping bitcoin then air drop it to the cat coin people that's do you even know like which platform it uses no clue cat coin no it's literally the first i've heard of it yeah probably uddy's market buying on unit swap right now guys this is the second time that you and i have hung out on a show and and this one was much more fun i would like to say this was a lot of fun i enjoyed it i enjoyed it uh we need to thank cms again right yeah thanks to cms holdings a hundred k goes to get coin public good funding

as a result of this episode and that would not have been possible without udi like and thank you for being a guest duty this has been a lot of fun um thank you for watching me guys so if anyone has another 100k and [Laughter] how much to get cz on the pod ryan two a quarter million for cz what are we doing next i'm i mean you you put it in a good defense for cz so it's got to be worth something to like have you looked into that influencer mining little c cz funds for yourself no i think you know you did i think you kind of started this conversation with kind of asking like why or maybe it was one of your tweets like what do i really

uh care about uh binance chain yeah why am i curious why yeah so i think that um there's um i i kind of started saying that i think that there's um if you know if the bull market continues assuming that assuming it's not over assuming this is not the last crypto episode ever then then i think that that you know we're gonna have a lot of crazy things that we're not thinking of right now and a lot of uh people coming from outside of the space entirely we're going to try to make themselves a thing and we're already starting to see that but i think we'll see that much in in a much bigger volume and i think

that people right now are kind of looking at um maybe kind of the things that do not matter as much like uh technology like oh is that uh going to scale is that um really fully decentralized because when you look into the details um closely you see that there are trade-offs for everything there's nothing that is fully decentralized they're going to be trade-offs everything and a lot of people people do not even other times people don't even understand those trade-offs so i think that this is not the most important thing there's things like distribution and and influence and and and those things are very important and i think we we all kind of have to look at those things and see how they're going to affect the respective ecosystems we talk about

can be bitcoin can be ethereum i think you know the the um uh kind of the aliens are coming all the people are outside of our world are gonna are gonna come in if we if it's gonna get as big as we think that it is then people are gonna come in and they're gonna shake our beliefs uh in a very big way i think so that's why i'm interested in that look guys this ends on a fantastic point to be honest i think if if bankless has a blind spot in general it's probably that we are decentralization maximalists and possibly the next 99 who join us in the crypto journey don't care about these things

right that is probably the bear case for like bankless and for bitcoin and for ether uh and maybe the bull case for the crypto banks and something like bnb uh udi really enjoyed this discussion actually so like i would do this for free man what about you david but this is actually good i was expecting to say that the best best compliment [Laughter] all right i think we have to shut it down there people want to learn more about you and follow you on twitter or and do other things related to what should they do just don't do that okay fair enough all right well thanks for coming on and chilling us uh thanks

your thesis about the space hyper sound money thanks guys ultrasound money for somebody bye guys hey we hope you enjoyed the video if you did head over to bankless hq right now to develop your crypto investing skills and learn how to free yourself from banks and gain your financial independence we recommend joining our daily newsletter podcast and community as a bankless premium subscriber to get the most out of your bank list experience you'll get access to our market analysis our alpha leaks and exclusive content and even the bankless token for airdrops raffles and unlocks if you're interested in crypto the bankless community is where you want to be click the link in the description to become a bankless premium subscriber

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