Token Holders vs App Users: Who Matters Most? | Analyst Round Table

Transcript

there was actually a very interesting debate on TT between Kane versus Antonio uh Kane from synthetics say that Wix has never been decentralized they've been run like a San Francisco F Tech startup and decentralized Tech is catching up and it's hard to Pivot a culture of top down hierarchal decision-making processes and Kane basically F to say that the pivot from starw to cosmos had zero input from community and Antonio basically responded by saying how you make serious technical progress is not by getting the committee of most of the token hoers to agree and he basically just straight up State and I think I'm quoting him here he doesn't care what token holders think of the product he just cares what the user

thinks all right everyone welcome back to another episode of zerox research we got a great analyst episode lined up for you today um we got brick and ren joining us today to chat all the latest Market happenings but before we get into that I want to talk about Das London quickly it's a huge conference going on in London in March and I'm personally fired up for the the fellas from Steakhouse they are coming they're going to be part of a panel uh where we're discussing the importance of financials in crypto you know this is something I personally work a lot on at blockworks research and think about deeply is at the end of the day you know blockchains are just onchain economies and Within These economies are protocols or and they really look a lot like businesses and so at the end of the day businesses

have financial statements and the the use of blockchains really can kind of create this window into trans parency um and creating realtime financial statements and so this is something that we're doing at blockworks research we we'll have an exciting announcement around that coming out in a few months I mean the fellow at steakhous have really pioneered what that looks like they've got some great Dune dashboards they work closely with like Lio and maker Dow and really bringing this out and and making that stuff a reality I think it's really really important for the maturity and growth of our industry so personally that's kind of what I'm looking for but Sam what are you looking forward to at D London yeah for me it's twofold one I'm excited to go to London who doesn't want want to go to London and then two I think right now is probably the most

interesting time from the institutional standpoint in crypto I mean the spot ETF you see coin catching a bid you see Bitcoin miners perform performing really well and this has been like a very difficult environment to actually actively allocate Capital so I think people are taking notice and I think right now everyone needs to really be keeping a close eye on what the institutions are doing and this is the perfect way to actually uh get in Grain see on like boots on the floor what's going on so very very excited about D London love it boots on the ground baby I think you used the term uh bump shoulders with the with crypto Executives at one point too and that's just so true so for limited time we're running a 20% promo on a four pack of Das tickets again this is in London this coming March that's about three four

months from now so grab you and three of your friends and use Code Black Rock 0x that's all caps no spaces Black Rock 0x to catch us in Sunny London Town and let's get into the show now so we have again again A good episode lined up we got top movers biggest losers governance update and of course the classic Hot Seat cool drone um but I'm actually going to get us moving here on the biggest mover and so it's an interesting one sometimes we talking about priz here we you know generally try to avoid that and make more interesting takeaways but I'm actually going to go ahead and share my screen here for those that are uh able to watch on YouTube as opposed to listen on Spotify but for those listeners I will talk you through what I'm looking at here as well so the top

mover of the week I actually have Avalanche transaction count so I want to use blockworks research here to to kind of our analytics portal to explain an interesting anomaly I found uh when just kind of you know looking through Avalanche data so I talk it over to Avalanche into our onchain activity section and for those of you that are on YouTube viewing you'll be able to see this dashboard but I will verbal ver verbalize it for everybody who's just listening so the transaction count for Avalanche has absolutely exploded I actually noticed this uh yesterday so I was looking at the 1119 date with about 2 million transa excuse me about 485,000 transactions in a given day which was approaching all-time highs for Avalanche so it seemed like there's a

huge uptaking activity and again when we come back today you know we've now seen about two and a half 2.3 million transactions in the in one day on the November 19th period And so you usually see about five or so million transactions in a given week for Avalanche and that's like an all-time high level right but now we're seeing two million in a day and our dashboards Refresh on a daily basis so the the current rolling total today is about another four million transactions so even a new all-time high so three consecutive all-time highs in a row when it comes to transaction count now the interesting thing here is that would signify to most people oh like people are competing for box Bas so fees must be skyrocketing but if we look at the average fee it's actually plummeted from you know on average somewhere around

about Z 005 aex to the the most recent period was 0.2 so about a 50 or so percent reduction in the average transaction fee so immediately when I saw that I was like okay something's a foot this doesn't really add up you know if you go look at the the transactions table the most uh the most used transactions right now or excuse me the most used contracts are like Trader Joe typical liquidity pools right so it wasn't adding up and so I started tearing through the transactions and actually realized that it was avalan ASC 20s now you've probably never heard of ASC 20s and that's for good reason because they're they're effectively spam transaction um they're they're really just Bitcoin ordinals on Avalanche and you'd probably ask yourself why do I need ordinals on a

Network that has smart contracts and can support nfts and that's a great question there's really not a good answer um so you can see we've seen about 6.8 million transactions minting these asc2 is um and we're seeing about 200,000 every hour which is an insane clip of of these minting transactions and that's been really doing an impressive number so that in terms of transaction count that's doing about 95 96 97% of total transaction volume on Avalanche and taking up only about 70 72% of all Avalanche gas so they're doing an insane number of transactions but not driving that much value back to Avalanche uh so 100% of transaction fees

on Avalanche are burned um but you're you know we're not really capturing much of that value given the fact that they're just really really cheap transactions and so all is really doing to Mint an asc2 um you know we've seen you know pretty NE a nice uptick in in avax Bur but you know nothing that's like orders of magnitude above and values we've seen before as we're seeing in the in the total transaction count so tldr here is when you see a top number like a new all-time high in transaction counts just be a little wary take it a step deeper and try to figure out why these things are happening uh because in the case of this uh specific instance with Avalanche it's not like Network ad off option or some meaningful new breakthrough uh it is it's basically

Network spam for very very cheap transactions sending yourself a string of hex data that is like you know arguably minting in nft in some ways but again it's it's more of like an ordinal uh but we can kick it over to the Biggest Loser now with rent yeah I do have a biggest loser and it's fresh off the press um so the Biggest Loser is B&B shorters actually um this morning we got news that the doj May settle with binance for upwards of $4 billion dollar um it's A4 billion fine basically and it'll probably help CZ avoid any potential jail time the criminal charges that doj is basically pressing binance for is that they offered unregistered Securities and also comingled customer

funds as part of the deal they would obviously Let The Exchange continue to operate while giving law enforcement potential access to the exchanges database and the doj officials are also interested in Leever leveraging binance too better monitor elicit Financial activity so obviously a$ four billion dollar fine is like quite a hefty amount so when the news first came out evidently price went down I think went from from probably $250 to 245 as people p on the shorts however I think a few minutes later people be like said wait it only cost like4 billion dollars to get doj off of me sure I can pay that bance is probably easily sitting on 30 billion or 50 billion dollars of cash

and after that BMB just ripped straight up all the way to it's probably trading around 260 right now um so yeah that's what we have for this week I think for for a while the crypto market like didn't really know what to do with that piece of information they couldn't tell whether it was bullish or bearish but I guess if it's just a four million four billion dollar fine then it's pretty bullish in general yeah I think the Market's just like Clarity here and that's what we're seeing that's why we got the the short little dump then a nice little rally and four billion dollar like you said Ren isn't all that much money so not not surprised to see the the market acting positively to this news considering I'm sure there's a lot of big players who were like looking at volume makeup and

seeing how dominant binance was and was pretty worried about that and whether or not it could be worse when I grew up I want to have a $4 billion doll fine and it not be a big deal but but more seriously like I mean what do you think this means for binance's long-term like staying power and potential like if you're I mean us as users coinbase is kind of probably our Premier Choice just given you know we live in the US that's the kind of just the it's just the one we use for what one reason or another um but I'm curious like how do you think the rest of the World Views this is that something that they you know are people going to be willing to go back to binance I guess is the ultimate question here maybe I'm the best to answer this

because I'm the best in the US so um I used to be a bance user but then when stuff started to come out which was a bit Shady uh I did switch like my main Central exchange to coinbase and right now I'm definitely not going back like even if they offer a bit cheaper transactions or uh there's more a bit more liquidity there I still feel that I'm not willing to risk at at least not yet uh my funds in that way so I'm happy to stay with coinbase I will add though that I don't know how many centralized exchange users exist today I I know coinbase has 110 million verified users if I'm not wrong

Min probably has a similar amount but one thing they keep notice that new participants where would they sort of onboard as their sex I don't know in an Ideal World they don't really have to go through a centralized exchange but as of today I still think you kind of have to um but I'm not really sure where a new user would onboard I know binance has gotten a lot of regulatory pressure in the EU too like they've been getting kicked out of random countries in the EU and Africa like left right so perhaps coinbase is the household name these days do you all know if uh this has more to do with binance us than it does binance international though that's that's one angle that's really not clear to me at all my gut reaction is that

it's kind of for both entities both the US and the international because um obviously one thing is a coing of customer funds and so that would like everything apply to both Finance entities and I would think uh doj would also want access to like binance Internationals like exchange database or leveraging it to monitor like this activity that that would only make sense yeah I think that's probably probably the case Ren but moving over to some governance updates um I guess this one to start out with is is more just comedy to be honest but Sam Walman was uh fired or removed from the CEO position at open Ai and then I think it was like 700 out of the

770 cles over there signed a letter saying that they were going to quit if uh Sam wman wasn't hired back so uh he wound up within 24 to 48 hours getting hired back as CEO and uh I think Microsoft is playing a more active role there now that they own a majority stake I believe maybe Ren I think you have a better feel for what's going on in this situation but do you have anything to add there yeah uh I think what happened if samman got kicked out either like he wanted to just continue to push on um and Ship Without caring about like AI safety concerns and the board did not want to so they kicked him and the other guy out um and as of this morning I think at 3: a.m. the Microsoft CEO sya tweeted out

that Sam Alman is joining um open uh sorry Sam mman is joining Microsoft to lead their Advanced AI research department and it's kind of weird because Microsoft had previously promised to give open AI up to 10 billion dollars in as your credits probably to train your models but yeah I think there were a lot of comments on Twitter that were saying how open AI this whole Fiasco made Dow govern sto Division and honestly it was like a sh Show it's like everyone was being live streamed updates from like 10 different people on Twitter over the weekend about where Sone was going how everyone was like not informed how people are certain to crit um however I do think something similar happens in crypto sooner or later there's going to be like a hundred

billion dollar company and there's going to be like this massive showdown between like different factions of The Da people are going to get voted out I'm actually not sure how much a DA has the power to kick out a contributor I would guess today like that's not really a thing a d can do but if it is that would be hilarious and it will definitely will happen like someday and it'll probably be a movie maybe you can't kick them out but you can definitely stop paying them and that's effectively the same thing or else you're getting worked for free and maybe they wouldn't be complaining at that point I feel like Doan could be a good example of that too I mean he kind of got ousted by the cosmos Community back in the day but he still lingers around and and gives his opinions

everywhere he jquan yeah yeah jquan gez dquan that's a much different character yeah the PTSD scar of the Luna L Luna days yeah exactly exactly but uh moving on to the next governance update we've got Sushi looking to update their tokenomics the goal is to more optimally distribute emissions so that way there's not as much extraction just on the sushi token itself they want to increase Sushi utility better award LPS and overall just create a more sustainable model over the long term personally I mean I feel like I've been hearing about sushi tokenomics redesigns for the last year and a half and and nothing's come of it and uh yeah I just I never use Sushi myself I don't know if you guys do so I

I don't have a whole lot of Hope for this one but if anyone has any any educated takes to say on this matter speak up and that's a no no one wants to talk toi all right we'll move over to a uh a is looking to add curve USD markets to V3 on ethereum Dan can I get your comment here I know you always want to talk curve USD yeah Shez this is the opportunity of a lifetime uh I mean it's it's definitely interesting um you know for a adding more assets is generally the right direction of course the risk parameters you put around those assets is important to consider and then for curve it's definitely beneficial for CRV us right the for the health of the pig you want

as many places as possible for those tokens to flow to right you want them to be in Silo you want them to be in curve you want them to be in compound any sorts of Leverage is a great spot um for these tokens to go run and hide in basically uh so yeah it's definitely exciting for CRV USD which is now at a new all-time high in borrowed Supply at about 160 million so it's still some Healthy Growth I think the the flipping moment there would be a big landmark or big watermark for any like onchain stable coin be flipping like LUSD maybe of course that's kind of going the other way while while CRV USD is increasing its circulating Supply so I think that's about 2 250 million in circulating market cap is uh LUSD so that's kind of

the the next road map or the maybe the next uh Landmark for CRV USD yeah I'm pretty excited to see like uh the curve USD growth throughout like a A Raging Bull Market that one's super exciting I can understand why you always want to talk about it but uh this one's this one's not exactly a governance update per se but synaps is adding support for salana um for all the eth folk who are trying to figure out the best way to bridge over there I also tried out Mayan exchange is I believe what it's called that was pretty smooth but someone else on our team said it wasn't as pleasant of an experience bridging back from salana over to ethereum so uh maybe check out synaps if you're looking for that uh this one was pretty interesting actually indexed Finance it's an older project and it has about a market cap of

200k uh only 200k I should say and they had about 40,000 die remaining in their Community Treasury and someone thought no one was looking and they tried to pass an onchain vote on tally to liquidate that treasury to themselves um but unfortunately for the person who is this witty to do so they uh rallied support from old token holders basically to deny the proposal and are now trying to figure out what they should do with the 36,000 die that that remains there I don't know this kind of brings up a better topic do you guys think this is like kosher to do like personally I think yes because if no one's watching then and that money is just sitting there then then why not like that guy was witty enough to pull that off but I can also definitely see how it's not

morally ethical if you will I would say it's definitely fair game you know um ideally IDE in a functional doubt you have like delegates you have involved folders people that constantly like are on top of all proposals although we know that that is very very far from the truth but from from like a mechanism design perspective like yeah I don't think this guy did anything wrong um I'm not sure whether the proposal was to distribute the entire Community treasury to all token holders or like distribute it all to himself himself if it's a lad then sure like the intentions are wrong but like assuming you had to engage out

you know like it it should be voted down so I don't think you should be free to perform whatever you want how ridiculous it is interesting interesting sounds like we have some kod cod's law fans in the crowd today but um I don't know I I definitely see where you're coming from on this but like it's definitely a little sketchy right rfv or risk free value trades are that's a thing you know we've seen it most recently announ down I think was probably the biggest one but DCF got is made famous for these trades and they make a lot of sense right you the the road map for the Dow is falling apart there's no one pushing it forward so let's just wind down the entity and return whatever value there is to the stakeholders which are the token holders

seems fair makes a lot of sense whether there I could definitely see why as a developer you know you could see your you your your child that you created like being wounded down that would certainly be unfortunate um but like that's the risk you run when you make a governance token and distribute it to everybody now doing an rfv for yourself that that definitely seems like uh you're trending the other direction there I don't know like legally how you'd break that down but if they you know if they was just buying tokens on the free market and then they use those tokens to vote for themselves to push this proposal through it's definitely interesting and it was a pretty narrow margin as you mentioned s so like I it's like does this person just go buy more tokens and try again I don't know yeah I

mean for me it kind of reminds me of a like a hostile take we in try and there's nothing wrong with that um through it kind of or the reason why someone is doing is is kind of I don't know backwards or like a bad reason um but it would be even cooler if they like took over the Dow and then started like turning around the project or whatever then we started to get into like the private Equity realm of of crypto which would be cool to see coming over at some point yeah it does seem like the intentions were very malicious here but that's a very interesting angle is if they you know take this treasure for themselves launch a new protocol and then like who knows airdrops index to

toen holders I mean think you're creating a narrative there but it's definitely interesting it's it's a case study no less I can talk about the last um governance update we have here so Orca is looking to turn on a fearch to the Dow treasury I think this proposal was put up by Rise Labs formerly known as signo Global cap infamous VC of the salana ecosystem they're proposing to direct 12% of trading fees um from pools with a feature that's larger than 30 BBS um it's nothing crazy Orca has been the number one deck by trading volume for the past 18 months apparently they capture More than 70% of all LP fees generated on Sana and more than 90% of LP fees generated on altcoins on salana

so I'm not sure what the status is of that proposal I'm not too familiar with orcus General governance process but I wouldn't be too surprised to see this going through especially considering it's just going to the Dow treasury it's not being redistributed to holders straight away um I did find something interesting which is completely unrelated Orca has a climate fund where 1% of trading fees goes to this climate fund and it's like uh basically like a ESG investing fund I'm not sure what like a relatively small decks why they have a climate fund I just thought was interesting um I will put it out there that my take is yes she is a complete scam I would second that notion I I find

this uh this proposal pretty interesting though cuz obviously Dan I don't know if you're I think it was last week or the week before you were just talking about how absolutely brutal it was to unwind a convex position and the gas fees were so expensive to unwind the position that it almost ate up half the yield that you earned over you know a year and granted the position size wasn't that small you're just experimenting but I think that Salon dexes do have more of an opportunity to charge LPS because the gas fees are affordable so you can actually almost like the un swap front end fee no one who knows what they're doing it with size is going to go through that but I do think if you're an LP with a th000 or less dollars you're going to definitely go LP over um on Ora

as opposed to maybe Unis swap on ethereum and then having those those fees actually get returned to to the protocol and then also hurting minnow LPS if you will like I think you can just kind of get away with it better maybe that's a terrible take but nonetheless I like the value Cru uh over there in salana I don't know what like the lvr calculation looks like for Orca specifically I know looks it's positive for for Phoenix the like the limit order Book Exchange on Solana and I would imagine it's it's definitely not as bad for Orca LPS because of the shorter block times that like removes a lot of the issues we see uh with LPS on ethereum having those 12 second blocks times opens the window uh for a lot of

the lvr to occur because the shorter block times you get more trades and so like if there's a 1% move over 12 seconds would the price went up a half percent down a half percent and then to hit the uh the Up full percent and ending point you'd get to trade in in between that that that move and so that creates more fees so you get less lvr so I don't know if the Orca pools are like positive lvr or like a good place to be for LPS um but you're right Sam I think directionally it does make sense and this is probably if if let's say it's negative though and and LPS are losing and now they're going to be losing more and this is let's say orca is kind of just like doing this you know this fee uh return to the Dow anyways it' be a

good experiment for UNIS swap if Orca loses zero LP is then for whatever reason maybe people are just willing to lose money and keep continue being an LP in this protocol that plays a key role in the salana Dex landscape I mean the other thing there is I wonder how because now with like Phoenix live and open book back up an action you know there is like there are L like uh limit order book exchanges that are live today and like theoretically those are going to be much more performant when they're like fully or when they're as mature as say amm have become so it'll be funny to just kind of like see the tradeoffs there and say like all right maybe all trades are going to get routed through uh these limit order books anyway so

let's at least try to get some Revenue while we still can before we have to go build a new product time for a good uh section to jump to Hot Seat cool drone R maybe you can kick us off yeah sure I'll kick us off with uh dyx so over the weekend um thex had a bit of a also Fiasco so to say they lost $9 million from their Insurance Fund which was roughly 40% of the Insurance Fund so like quite a hefty amount to be honest I think the Insurance Fund started off at 21.5 million it stands at about 13 million today uh basically what happened is that someone quote unquote manipulated the UR markets on dydx and the open interest spiked from 0.8

million to 67 million which is pretty considerable increase and I think no other prop decks had anything close to the amount of open interest on dydx um if you track the funds on chain you can see that this position was split across many wallets but it kind of originated from one single Source suggesting that a single actor was behind this quote unquote manipulation um the similar actor attempted a similar thing on a sushi Market a few weeks ago and basically in response the dydx team or whoever manages just dydx V3 it's a bit confusing these days um increase the initial marget ratios for altcoin markets they actually increased it before this attack but then I guess that wasn't sufficient for the amount of open

interest that was present on dydx um Antonio basically reported this to the FBI I'm not sure what for they say they're not going to negotiate with the attacker it looks like they want to pursue this like in il legal means um and they see this as a form of Market manipulation and there was actually very interesting debate on T between Kane versus Antonio uh Kane from synthetics say that Wix has never been decentralized they've been run like a San Francisco F Tech startup and decentralized Tech is catching up and it's hard to Pivot a culture of top down hierarchal decision-making processes and Kane basically F to say that the pivot from starware to cosmos had zero input

from community and Antonio basically responded by saying how you make serious technical progress is not by getting the committee of most of the token Hest to agree and he basically just straight up say and I think I'm quoting him here he doesn't care what token holders think of the product he just cares what the user thinks so it's just like really interesting discussion on on one hand this Kan and Antonio discussion is kind of like separate from like the whole like user owner community and how much of a say they should have in sort of a product development road map and I think the other larger discussion just based on this specific incident is what really counts as Market manipulation for a perex or any def5 protocol to be honest like you can make

an argument that the fall doesn't lie with the exploiter or the attacker you know dydx should have recognize that perhaps there's a lot more liquidity for year on offchain venues such as binance or other centralized exchanges and because of that some risk manager whether that's a dow a service provider dydx themselves should have recognized that and limited the initial H sorry increased the initial margin ratio enough so that this should have never happened in the first place or for example they should have kept the open in just to much slower than what it is and likewise that should have never happened in the first phase I put out a tweet that basically say in a fully

decentralized protocol markeet manipulation is just the fa of mechanism design it should not exist and furthermore should not be punished I guessing some people may agree with this statement and I'd love to hear you guys thoughts I mean we have we have that take combined with you should be able to raid uh Dow treasury as a token voter Ren I don't know I don't know man I don't know what these takes but the dydx thing is definitely interesting because there seems to be like you know there should have been tighter risk prams and the dydx or the Antonio and Kane discussion I think is a great talking point here just because it's so interesting to kind of play out those two different sides because I think they're both right and it's just a

matter of the road you want to take personally I'm specifically at the app ler I'm very very for Progressive decentralization so let's think of like a token distribution where you know 60% of the token goes to the community and 40% goes to team and investors I honestly want the team to have a vast majority of voting power at the early onset of the protocol again specifically at the app ler I think for l1's and l2s it's a different conversation for like General purpose chains and we can have that discussion at a different point But at the app layer I want the team pushing forward that product like that's how you're going to get the best results that's been proven time and time again in human history yes there will be exceptions to this but largely I like

I'm bullish the team continuing to build their thing let the devs dev uh and so because of that that's why that's why I think you're kind of seeing it already play out where you're seeing smaller airdrops and more incentive programs right if you can incentivize a very specific action from your user base whatever the needs of your protocol are so like in the case of a perex that's you know generally trading we see that or or adding liquidity on the market making side if you can incentivize those behaviors for a longer period of time I I I struggle to see how you will do better by just airdropping your whole token allocation to your community on day one and so again that's why this kind of tangental here but I think the idea of progressive decentralization is

quite powerful um you know I I tweeted out uh at at Kane and Antonio so we're going to try to get them on so definitely if you're uh if you're still listening here definitely go engage with that tweet and uh get those Fellas on here it' be a really fun discussion and I think constructive for this space as well because again I think they're both right uh it's just a matter of the road you want to take I think it's also interesting that dydx removed the usdc staking module for like Insurance like related activities just like this scenario it makes me wonder with full decentralization of dydx and as it's coming and continually continually decentral izing do they need some type of um I guess usdc staking module so that way it can cover any shortfalls in the Insurance Fund that they've accured

to date or should the token somehow be wound in here and be used for the the Insurance Fund to give it extra utility obviously that would be pretty recursive I don't really know what the right answer is here but I do think like trusting the community to direct a portion of the revenue that's flowing to validators and stakers to an insurance fund so basically responsibly saying hey guys we need to you know think about the longevity here and allocate 10% of all revenue which is going to lower everyone else's yield put it in the Insurance Fund so that way you know when things like this happen we covered I I I find it hard to believe that token holders vote for that well see this goes back to the when do you distribute profits to token holders argument right like this is a prime example of when return like

uh Capital distribution should be at the bottom of the stack and it's ahead what should be ahead that is exactly this is funding and insance Insurance Fund and I think I thought the old dydx Insurance Fund they had was in dydx tokens is that correct or do I have that off it was in dydx tokens I think but they also had a usdc or sorry usdc staking module as well so I think there was like two different Insurance Fund mechanisms so I'm all for having a whatever token whether it be East whether it be ad or whether it be usdc having an insurance fund that's not denominating your native token because having to sell your own native token when there's a shortfall to cover it is a bit dangerous especially

now with V4 live when it's a staking asset like it it it has a plays a key role in network security and so having you know let's say they didn't have a a Insurance Fund live and they had to have they had a shortfall of n million and now they have to go sell DX which is a security token for their chain like I could see that causing a whole nightmare of scenarios and um I think gns has an interesting like not really an auction model but something similar where they've just created a system where that removes price impact from these types of things and I think you could probably get a creative way to create this but because it's also a staking asset so the asset already has utility it's getting yield from that that product on V4 I don't think you need to kind of say all

right we need to drive more utility towards the dydx token so let's go create this recursive staking module to your point Sam I I would love to see like an Insurance Fund denominated in anything other than dydx I got to say though that um as like a last resort of I don't know uh protecting the protocol I like uh a structure where like the governance token or the native token is used to kind of plug the hole there because then token holders still have some kind of an incentive to think about the protocol and like trying to uh make it move forward but it shouldn't be the only Insurance Fund type of uh mechanism that

the the protocol implements because that's like super reflexive or it's going to come and bite you at some point if um you suddenly become uh or your your exchanges positions go negative yeah I would definitely Echo that I think over time observing D there's two things that you can like more or less mostly assume the first is that token holders are probably not the smartest bunch of people especially when it comes very like complex topics such as like Risk Management or risk parameters and second is that most token holders will probably act in their self-interest in general um and then I think this dydx

exploit also partially throws avention a few things first of all they had a proposal that passed a few weeks ago that basically updated a lot more listings to be available on dydx such as like op or um I'm not sure whether this potentially throws a wrench in those plans but I would be I wouldn't be surprised if it did or at least like increase the amount of for example open interest Caps or increase the amount of um initial margin requirements and another thing that I think also thr a mention is dydx permission listing plans so permission listing is going to be this big thing for dydx V4 and there's two sort of models that are currently being explored I think I want to say chaos or maybe Ry has a good report or a

good forum post out there about the two different models um that they're exploring and one thing that this makes me stink is like for example if the Dow onboards like a risk management provider for example chaos and gaunlet that work with a and many other def5 protocols is the service provider liable for like anything that happens to the protocol you know say the protocol loses like $10 million from the insurance fund because uh gaunlet or chaos or some other risk management provider basically set the parameter like obviously way off right are they on the hook for like potential losses there I'm not sure I don't think we've see

like a case happen yet the closest thing was probably like the curve situation on a but you couldn't really blame gaet there because the community constantly uh voted like gains their like proposal to sort of tighten up their risk parameters um I I just think that's an interesting question to ask especially if dydx wants to go with like a full per do this thing rout someday yeah that's pretty interesting I mean working for a dow is definitely not like a full employee relationship at all in in any capacity but you know if you make a bad decision that negatively impacts your company as an employee like yeah you might get fired but like unless it was malicious or you know blatantly illegal

like I don't think you're liable for that action I guess it definitely depends right and I'm sure the medical field is probably much different than like I don't know the accounting world even which is still probably like again if you intentionally Mis if you're an accountant and you intentionally misrepresent a number in a financial statement uh like you're going to lose your license and you're definitely going to be like jobless but again I don't know if there's legal rep I don't know that's a good question yeah this also makes me think of a funny like comparison to like some trading companies I heard stories I don't know what they're rumors or not but some Trading like it doesn't matter if you lost like millions or billions on a

trade all that matters was that in De the expected value of your trade was positive and so basically the company say you didn't do anything wrong you took a trade what I expect the value was positive it's chill you know like with enough trades across the entire company we're still going to make like billions and billions of dollars and I wonder if there's like a potential similar situation for service providers in Dallas yeah it's definitely an interesting thought exper I guess we need an employment lawyer to to hop on here and give us some real answers but uh brick who do you got this week yeah for this week's hot sit I've got um maker down and like more specifically how they're handling their uh usdc Peg stabilities or Peg stability modules

liquidity um so for those who don't know the peg stability module just just lets you or a user swap die one to one against the token that's in the BSM and in this case it's usdc um and the maker at the moment has a I guess a mandate you could call it where if the PSM and then two like guni pools are below 300 millions in liquidity then maker has to withdraw usdc from one of its rwa vaults uh more specifically the coinbase cost of the world and increase the total liquidity to 400 million and then conver verely if

um the PSM and the 2 guni pools are above 500 million then maker deposits uh usdc into the into the coinbase custody um account and brings back the sum to 400 million uh and how it works in practice is that there's this old like Forum post um where the CEO monal money manalis I'm not sure how you pronounce that but uh he basically alerts the trustee and everything happens manually which of course means that take some time and um I kind of

scrolled through the Forum uh and historically has taken some time uh for like the notification even go online uh which of course isn't ideal and I think it's kind of funny when we always talk about like tokenized rwa and how they enable uh like new use cases and all of this like Innovative stuff but then uh how this Pro processes really work is that it's still done manually because yeah you still have to get off chain somehow um and yeah on top of that it also takes some time for like of course the funds in the coinbase vault to like move around because you have to go from

like cold storage to um a hot wallet and uh if there's really like a liquidity problem and maker still wants to um like defend that you could be in some trouble after a while um and yeah why I'm talking about this is because recently there's been a lot of volatility uh within the usdc PSM um and I guess there's been a few wallets who have like I don't know if you can call it attacking but kind of deliberately been doing some shady stuff in there um which has led to like the coinbase custody Vault being almost drained completely around a week ago and this means that um like maker is suffering um like Revenue

wise because this vaults uh create yield for the protocol while usdc that's in the PSM doesn't really create any revenues um but yeah now the pools or the two gunit pools and the PSM is back to around 590 Mill so um now in theory maker should like um initiate a new uh transfer to the coinbase custody pool so or the coinbase custody I don't know account um yeah any thoughts on this yeah I think it really points to like an inefficient setup for how maker ass to deal with these and you know they were the first person to really Pioneer

uh how to back die with RW and so it's you know kind of makes sense that that wouldn't be you know a super efficient to somewhat clunky operation right now um the most interesting iteration I've seen on that model I think is frax with finr PBC of course that's not really live and up and running yet right now I believe s FR is just backed by S die ironically um you I haven't checked to see if that's changed over the last couple weeks but that that was the situation now if if you fast forward and assume that that gets up and running and is working effectively that kind of seems a like there's probably a good chance that it's a more efficient system of doing the you know quite a similar thing right there's only one entity that needs to be communicated with and they're basically part of the

corrax team right so instead of having to go from my company to your company and have a line of communication between us then we can both respond to it's just going you know brick you and I work for the same company so we can already have an open line of communication and I I do think that will create some efficiencies I just think one counterparty uh is definitely Pro or doesn't does a better job on the the efficiency standpoint of course there's a trade-off there and there is more risk because you're Consolidated around one entity uh but as far as it pertains to maker brick like are you concerned about the M are you concerned about the die Peg or is this more of just like a Topline Revenue problem right because if they're withdrawing from the coinbase fault obviously there's no longer earning yield and thus revenue is going

down yeah I think at least for now for me it's more of a revenue problem um there's still it's pretty easy to uh withdraw your die or like um how would I put this uh like send your die back to maker and then have your over collateralized positions come back like it still isn't really a problem about if the token or the stable coin is collateralized or not it's more about okay now we have a venue where we can trade die against another stable coin one to one so uh yeah like big trades won't affect the p as much which I understand that or I think what maker is doing well is like even though the

process is pretty in inefficient they're still um focusing on what's the most important part which is keeping diet like $1 Peg because if that starts sleeping and suddenly lose investor confidence or like holder confidence then a bank rant might occure and then yeah everything can go downhill pretty pretty quickly from there uh completely separate point but I think these offchain onchain interactions are going to become increasingly common in the future especially as RW or tokenization takes off um you know it's like if something onchain something has to happen offchain or if something offchain

something has to happen on chain I'm I'm not sure if there's a way to decentralize that but maybe there's a future in which for example like a protocol has a smart contract and then it uses a storage proof to BAS basically Pro that the two guni proves and the usdc liquidity in the PSM are less than say 500 million right and then you call like this decentralized API to like a keer network to move These funds from this like offchain custody protocol and do whatever you need with it um that seems a bit farfetched for now but it could be something that's explored pretty heavily as like

tokenization and a take off just because that's always being a concern you know like sure like tokenizing these assets is great but at the end of the day uh you're so relying on custodians offchain and I think we've seen a host of problems with custodians offchain before even with all of you know like whatever like this is bankrupt protected it's a independent trust blah blah blah yeah and it's tough because you still have this like middleman in the process and the amount of entities you could use as a middle man is quite limited I would say still so there's not like there's this problem that those people who are getting paid

for this don't really want to lose that position so there's not really a lot of push to you know uh like put the industry forward or make these ideas a reality at least yet but we'll see what happens yeah my only take on this is I'm pretty bearish on like real world assets over the term to medium term I just like we need like regulatory Clarity and understanding who actually has claims on the Assets in the event of like a bankruptcy or a default or like forc liquidation I just have zero confidence as a token holder that owns a real world asset on chain in quotations like actually has any rights to the underlying asset in the real world so I'd just be pretty careful until we have the the regulatory Clarity

that we need there yeah I mean some places already have that but I think the larger problem problem here is that it's so easy to like redeem assets on chain that um if there's even a small fear of a default or like the collateral being undervalued or whatever then like everybody will pull their pull their liquidity which there's still more friction in like the real world When people's people want to run to the bank and like take their money out you you get what I'm saying yeah that's actually a a very good point Dan did you have something else to add there or should I hop into my cool throne was G to say you should hop into your cool Throne all right cool cool yeah I've got a Vertex traders in the cool Throne I've been

talking about vertex for quite a while now I actually wrote a report on them in the beginning of August when Traders were earning brtx tokens at like a four to five cent value the LBA just concluded which priced the token at 31 cents so a nice little 5 to 7x for those who participated and they currently have about $4 million of monthly incentives between the ARB STI that they won and the brtx token incentives that go out every single Epoch which is roughly 28 days the ARB incentives get paid out at the end of every week we've already seen a couple large sex listings um and I expect you know one of the Giants between coinbase and binance at some point to list this uh I've also heard from their co-founder on an AMA recently that there are some projects integrating or building alongside vertex so there

soon will be triple token incentives which is pretty attractive um and I also did some backup Knack and math for Block blockworks research subscribers and I'm guessing you usdc um the yield paid out in usdc to stakers will end up giving a yield to vertex at the current valuation of 30 30% or so so pretty attractive for people looking for yield paid out in usdc um I'm just pretty excited about vertex I'm interested to see where they go over the course of next year hoping that they do some cross chain deployment I'm definitely eyeing dips the token starts trading tomorrow uh the 21st so I will be interested if it goes you know below 15 cents or so just strictly based on the real yield play um but yeah I expect volume to continue going up with

the ARB incentives projects building on them uh as well as the brtx token incentives that will go into you know the next five six years of time I'm curious with dox V4 uh going live and probably liquid Stak dydx uh going live alongside what dydx sort of set like a baseline per de yield across crypto because obviously like there there's a few proex models right you have like sort of GMX where you have GP and GMX and you have that 30 uh that 7030 split and then you have like snx where snx is a token backing the liquidity on the exchange so you only really need to return B to that one set of token

holders and then you have dydx out here which you may get a portion of trading fees you get a portion of or actually I think you get 100% of like everything basically uh if I'm not wrong so and then you have like vertex out here which is like kind of in the middle of everything um so it just be interesting to see how all of these propex models and staking yield play out but I suspect the propex horse gets like really heated up especially as you go into the bull market I don't think we've ever seen like perex adoption in a full-fledged for Market a lot of the activity and growth that we've seen has been in relatively like muted and low liquidity market conditions yeah and I also think that

it's an pretty ecy narrative to hop on or if you're even a bit newer to the space like if you think about what coins you want to hold it's pretty easy to like jump into the verb deex world and understand the business models at the end of the day it's not that or the mechanisms aren't that like complicated and uh a big a big plus is that uh these exchanges are usually pretty cash flow generative so it's not just like tokenomics and free yield coming from native tokens but there's like a real business model underlying the the protocol I also add that I think in the bare Market with slowly seen the rise of

pre-launch Futures and perps on like meme coins I think pre-launch Futures the two exchanges that have been doing it the most are hyper liquid and AO I don't know how much like market share dominance they've gotten just based on these pre-launch features and like mem coin perks but I would guess in a Market or like more exciting market conditions they probably gain like a larger amount of market share just based on the fact that there's probably more air drops just probing more beam coins and they stand to capture a larger portion of that trading activity yeah definitely something to watch in the future it's just going to be interesting how well the liquidity will scale especially on those like premarket futures because you need to

have pretty robust market makers in order to make that work on in scale like even if you look at I I'm guessing AO is the largest uh pre-market Futures place and it's not that like it's impressive what they're doing but the trading volume areen anything mindblowing right now on the token side Sam I know they used in LBA like how how was that how'd that go for them are you are you excited about how the LBA went was it net positive for the token and in the protocol like what's your take around the LBA and maybe explain briefly what an LBA is not I about it yeah absolutely LBA is liquidity boot strapping auction and basically just lets the community set um the price naturally as opposed to and gives everyone the same price which

is nice so basically you could deposit for five days usdc or you could deposit um vertex tokens that had been earned over the course over the course of the previous six months and then at the end of the LBA they're fused together to form a pool and then obviously the ratio determines the price I think it went pretty well I'm expecting I mean there's 100 million tokens at Genesis 13 million got deposited in that LBA alongside 4 million usdc roughly so there's 87 million vertex waiting to be claimed and likely dumped in my opinion uh right when that gets started trading on Tuesday today's Monday so unfortunately this comes out on Wednesday so you guys will have kind of missed that part of everything but maybe look back and see if I was right but I'm expecting a lot

of people to dump that token because they don't really understand the usdc real yield play so I think that there's going to be an opportunity to pick it up a lot cheaper and like maybe the yield would be implied at 60 70 80% paid out in usdc and I think just if you look at GMX or you know we can't really see it with DX yet but I do think there's going to be like a baseline yield where people are like all right if I can earn 25% paid out in an exogenous collateral like I'll take that up any day so I think there's a chance that we start to see some of these per tokens especially for the reason that brick said you know they're very cash flow generative I think that there's decent floors on some of these and especially when you pair in

incentives on top of the Native tokens like R um and maybe third party tokens building on top of it it just seems like a a pretty easy play but I will note um the team on this one vests after a six-month cliff and then they vest over two years so that's like a lot more aggressive and short of the timeline than most of these projects yeah good flag there for sure and um I I I liked your explanation of the LBA there it's going to be interesting I think we're going to see a lot more lbas a lot more fair launch type plays a lot more potentially the Revival the Ico era I think that that's something to wash for in the in the coming months here but uh with a final cool Throne of the day I've got I got crypto gaming in the cool Throne man

this is one that I I'm definitely firmly in the camp of it's still quite but but the reality is there's some cool things coming online that I want to flag here so I'll start small and end big uh duel arena is a little one V one dueling game you got different items that have different statistics and you can kind of just like you know RuneScape duel style uh different people in in online way pretty cool you can like bid you can bid tokens you can you know you can bid uh any in-game items it kind of reminded me of of RuneScape where you know you walk up to someone right click on them press trade and then you like agree to terms and then you have this duel it's pretty cool there only been about 5,000 battles but it was a relatively smooth experience just kind of playing around

with it then we have friend pet which this one also I believe is on base but don't quote me on that one um started a while ago actually but it was just like tomagotchi L game with you're trying to like keep a virtual pet alive a bit silly but the token has ran up multiples to a 16 million fdv um you know we're seeing this like era of like indie game styles kind of start to these games are starting to like pick up a little bit of steam and I think this is something you're seeing in the you know traditional gaming sector as well is you know it's not all triple games triaa uh Studios building games there's some smaller guys that are building thing that people actually want to play as well uh Lis who has actually made notable for creating the mud framework

which is like this scalable way to build onchain games actually just announced a its own L2 so it's L2 season we're getting a lot more of them and uh you know they advertise it as a cost-effective way to build onchain games worlds and other ambitious applications uh for us the first thing I was like all right what's a tech stack op stack chain going to be part of the super chain as well uh so maybe bullish for super chain adoption there uh but it would be cool to see kind of this like L2 very focused on gaming I don't really know how it's going to play out but we will definitely be watching uh now getting up to the bigger boys alivium actually the arena PVP trailer just watched and the graphics look incredible on the trailer you know I will note that this was not a Gameplay trailer trailer

it was just like a you know a footage trailer if you will where they're trying to create hype for the game uh I'm definitely intrigued the lum's been um you know long been the crypto game that's going to actually execute on the the prophecy of making a fun game to play so we will see definitely going to pay attention for that one don't have a launch date for you but definitely go watch the trailer and then now the big one uh Ren and I have set out on a quest a couple months ago we were like we are going to find the crypto game that does it all and we stumbled into the project Awakening and the second I found it I was like this is it this is it and and I think Ren's uh Ren's with me on this one but we'll have to get his take so

project Awakening is a crypto or I would say more of a blockchain based game built by the creators of Eve online Eve online is like a 10 plus year running MMG game so huge huge game that's been around forever it has staying power and much of that has to do with the economics that they built around the game uh we'll put this leag in the show notes but there's a great uh interview with the guys from a16z a16z and then uh one of the founders of of the development studio and he just walks through you know his experience between for building this massive game called EV on line uh you know uh and once you hear him talk about this I was like all right

like if anybody is going to build the crypto game that actually works it is going to be this man because you can tell that he's like got these battle wounds from building this game and like how you should build in-game economies and how that only some part should touch physical value and like how you create that and he ALS ultimately talks about some of the very interesting ways that blockchains actually do solve game uh pain points for games and and that's like something that we love to say is like oh you know you can get ownership or random things like this but he was like no here's why it's going to be better and so definitely recommend checking this out I will put the link in the show notes again but uh Ren maybe if you can share some of your uh excitement around project Awakening as well yeah

quick I think what's just built on Project Awakening yeah TBD we we have no idea yet so they I guess the I missed the news p uh the news announcement there while I was just so excited about talking about the game um but the they're just now launching their phase two of the testing uh uh the testing mechanism and so it's about a it's a 2,000 person application and you have to get approved so they're they're looking for people that have certain qualities it's like an actual form you have to fill out about your like thoughts about games in crypto it was pretty interesting actually I am like very desperate to get on this playlist because I want this like open World game that has a vibrant in-game economy where

like things it's it's going to be like so in-depth I don't know I was I was in love with RuneScape I love the economy side of RuneScape I think that's a lot of people in crypto and I think this is like designing that flawlessly is a nearly impossible task and somebody who's already done it for a non- crypto game I just think has such a good chance of doing it for crypto game yeah echoing what Dan say there I think no other video game in the history of like video games has come close to emulating Eve online's economy especially the complexity sophistication and functionality um they constantly make the news they have battles where like

six figures or close to seven figures worth of like ships are destroyed like they're really big events they have factions they politics exports Imports manufacturing and I think a lot of the reason why people are attracted to crypto are sort of these like economic experiments that you get to test out in this sandbox environment and I see project Awakening as like the second coming of Eve online given Eve online's success there is definitely like a humongous humongous like learning curve um I tried it before and it's just like like it's like a straight vertical wall made of ice basically um in terms of like the number of actions and the number of things that you can do in that game and how you can like optimize your

game play um but I'm just really excited to see both the economy in action whether that's like assets being traded on chain or for example what type of economy um they're going to build for this game but also how they may potentially tie like a token into it right I think sure you have like traditional video games where they have their own like ingame currency but that normally is obviously limited to it in-game ecosystem whereas the whole problem is of crypto like possibility you can bring that token anywhere and I'm just interested to see like what they potentially do with this like sandbox experment environment on steroids um having said that I've also tried out

star Addis this game I've tried out their like Labs game and also like the full like open world game the open world game is like definitely a lot cooler it's pretty smooth you get to like fly a spaceship you get to shoot the spaceship there hasn't been like much to do in the game it's still like a beta face but if you go back and watch the salana breakpoint trade where they use the unreal five engine it looks incredibly clean so I'm pretty excited for that one too um but yeah I think a lot of us are Gamers at heart to be honest in crypto and gaming is a huge Market especially in Asia especially for morall games right I I feel like pay to earn was kind of just a fat but pay to win is definitely something that people are

going to explore very liberally in crypto games especially in the Asian market people there are like complete degenerate and like basically imagine like a perex Trader trading on like 100 x leverage but it's just like overweight guy sitting on himself spending like $100 every five seconds just to like boost this like dragon in the game that's like literally like probably half of China um so I'm really excited to find that game too um this a huge mobile game that takes off forever to form and I do think game five is going to be a hot sector you know if you had to ask me like why do crypto games need to be on chain or why does it need to involve blockchain to be honest I don't have like a really good answer for you uh but I'm just excited to see the development

there and hopefully there is some like utility of it being on blockchain Rails for Eve online was it like a closed economy like could you ever sell your account or your assets on a secondary Marketplace because I just find that to be very very different between you know web 2 and web 3 games like if you have an economy that anyone can enter and exit and then get into given time and potentially extract value from that economy I think it makes it a lot harder of a case to say like you can translate what eil online did in web two into web three yeah no that's a that's a great question and in this video this interview he talks about that and he's like yeah there's a black market and it's a Perpetual game of wack-a-mole and it's tough to fight and so a lot of ways

you kind of have to embrace it because it's just going to be there but the thing that I think is most interesting and I really don't want to try to like rehash the meaning of this because it's been weeks since I've watched this interview um but he talks about specifically how they value or they think about the value of their in-game currency so the in-game currency in EV online is called isk and isk is not directly redeemable for for dollars but it is redeemable for the subscription credits to play the game and those the value of the credits to play the game can be changed by the team so they have like this almost like interest rate lever they can pull where you the economy is running hot they can make the credits more expensive and that

kind of cools it down a little bit it's very very interesting about how they think about this um and so like there are these yeah I guess I'm just gonna end up going on a rant here but the tldr is they think about what should be worth real world value and they do think about how the fact that like yes there's black market for for accounts and like how do you deal with that that's super interesting Bri do you have a comment there yeah I was I was going to say I I was never really like a big big gamer but one game I used to play a love when I was younger was steam Fortress 2 and uh at one point it became like a freet to-play game um and you couldn't really buy anything that helped you win

but um at one point they introduced like Cosmetics into the game uh you needed to open these key boxes and you needed a key to get those cosmetics and the economy there was like super super simple but it still spurred out to be this quite vibrant um I don't know how to put it like it became a vibrant um economy and there was also like a black market that uh spurred up and um I'm sure it helped like the game um become as popular as is it is right now and what I'm trying to say with this is that I think like super complicated economies are super cool but at the same time I'd

also want to see a game that goes for or just like something very simple because like just put the Cosmetics as nfts uh give some keys that you can open boxes with and then like be done with it I'm surprised that there hasn't really like spurred up a game like that that's like it's just super simple to play and then uh you're more focused on like the Cosmetic side uh when you're transacting with the game so to say and then I got to say that they one thing that like they couldn't explicitly um like control the value in the economy but you could of course like um change the drop rates for some like

cosmetics and stuff like that so that then you could see like how key prices would fluctuate based on like what Cosmetics people wanted and yeah I just thought it was super cool such simple design people love looking cool online and that'll never change so I agree with you yeah I spent embarrassingly large amount of money on fortnite skins back in the day but we don't have to talk about that I think uh I think the problem with the Cosmetics deal honestly is the game has to be like widely distributed all your friends are playing it all the time and that's when it's like all right cool like I'm gonna buy this cosmetic so I can look sick in front of my friends you know we just don't have that yet 100% that goes back to the fact we just still need a fun game yeah true true hey real quick brick

I know your grocery store is about to close but I do want to get your take real fast before we head off on the pyth air drop bullish bearish pyth oh Ren as well you wrote a great report on it I'm just curious with that having gone down today um how you guys think that'll perform given Link's performance last cycle yeah my opinion is that okay at the moment pits business model is kind of broken like it's going to be super hard to start paying like the how would I put it let's say call them service providers who provide the day data uh for the product itself um for them to like uh basically get paid for what they're

giving to the project um and that's a problem with like the whole Oracle vertical at the moment it's going to be you're going to need so much usage before you become like super profitable having said that I think the token has a lot of hype around it and especially outside the evm ecosystem it's the product seems super cool or like uh the low latency oracles seem super cool um and the market is definitely like hyped around the p uh oracles because they're so interconnected with salana and of course what happened there like in the past 30 days or so is going to help it and I wouldn't be surprised if the like whole

project does really really well in the upcoming cycle yeah I think as uh brick say piff hasn't exactly made a huge amount of money uh so far year to date it's single digit not you in two digits um if I IM my phone was not correctly so Oracle radio crew is definitely still struggling having said that governance has gone live today with the A J being pable and one of the key points of governance is that they are allowed to determine the fee of a price update and realistically I think they'll probably uh increase that by orders of magnitude like a th% even then there'll still be like a small percentage of like

the transaction gas fee so there is definitely like a path to profitability in terms of pitching piff against chain link obviously at the peak training went to like a pretty crazy market cap in the previous forun um and P is currently trading at a three billion fdv honestly with a 450 million or roughly 500 million market cap I do think there's potential there just on like a relative valuation perspective not from like a fundamentals there's not much fundamentals to like investing in the Oracle sector but having said that I think the key thing to watch in the coming months is adoption of chaining data streams right so chaining has this huge not triangle hold that's maybe not

a nice word but the foothold um over the S you more like evm ecosystems however their data stream product is very new one of the first and probably one of the only adop just right now is GMX with its unique fee model where they're sharing 1.2% of fees if chaining data stream product sees a lot of adoption while piff's current low latency product like their growth stagnates then that's probably not a good thing for piff just with the brand name that chaining has if piff can continue their growth which they've seen a pretty impressive growth in the previous few months whether that's the number of integration Partners or the number of price updates that consumers pull every day then I think it makes sense from like a

relative valuation perspective yeah it's also an interesting vertical because it's easy to misund understand like how the revenue is really created for these Oracle products or protocols and then you might have investors who just look at the total value secure chart or whatever and like in a bull market when everything goes up Suddenly the Oracle like so-called kpis also go up and suddenly you have a lot of investors who like um want to be in these projects and the core idea in itself is pretty easy to explain which is probably why chain link also did so well like you just need to have offchain that data onchain and

everybody kind of understand the fact good takes appreciate you uh staying on and risking you missing the grocery stores opening hours boy need some some dinner let's get you fed so I think uh without anything else thanks for coming on Ren and brick really appreciate it Dan you didn't have anything else there did you no no I just wanted to give a quick reminder that we do have a awesome Black Rock Friday I just now figured out what we did there with the pun with Thanksgiving in the US coming up the next couple of days uh we do have a 20% discount to das London again that's this March in the L in London as Sam says the land of P tasty pastries uh so be sure to use that Code Black Rock ZX again that's black rock ZX all caps no spaces

so thanks again guys and we'll see see you next week hey everyone thanks so much for tuning in to today's episode we hope you really enjoyed it wanted to take one more moment to remind you guys about our upcoming 20124 digital asset Summit in London this March seats are limited so be sure to hit the link in the description and use promo code 0x20 to save 20% off on your ticket we'll see you in London be sure to hit us up if you plan on [Music] attending