Runes: BRC-20s Replacement or Just More Hype?

Transcript

you want me to bridge over something for your like arbitrum orbit L2 with no immediate return and I don't know when I'm going to be able to pull that money back and then at the end of the day like are you really building something particularly like lifechanging gamechanging the podcast made me a bit pessimistic now but I don't know welcome to the club eternal optimist Pacho pessimistic and never heard that I think you actually tweeted today about not being a pessimist and why it's important to be an optimist no yeah I did but this one just really really upset me before we get into today's episode just a quick disclaimer the views

expressed on this podcast by either myself or any guests are their personal views and do not represent the views of any Associated organization nothing in this episode should be construed or relied upon as Financial technical tax legal or other advice all right let's jump into the episode hey guys welcome back to another episode of zerox research the research team is back to bring you another analyst round table today is Monday April 22nd but this episode will go live on Thursday April 25th today I'm joined by Ryan Dan and yapper capital from the bwr team to talk about what's happening in the market we're going to kind of switch up the format of the show moving forward no more uh governance and we're going to try and emulate the success that Daniel has had over at light speed um so

instead it's just going to be me and the rest of the guys picking topics so runes launched uh following The Happening which led to transaction fees at nearly 2,000 Satoshi per bite um which is approximately like $240 $250 per transaction I am very excited about runes I really like runes I know we have a lot of haters of runes on this podcast right now but I think that they are going to do quite well over the next year um I think right now the difference isn't really that obvious because the infrastructure isn't built out yet but I know a lot of teams are working on amm and other D5 protocols to support runes but I know that like following the

happening I think that was like a big selda news event as people realized that okay well these are currently the same as BRC 20s except you don't have to click to make stuff transferable anymore and it's automatically like works as it's intended right so it's like one step better than BRC which was probably the worst ux of any crypto experience and that's that's saying something um so it's like brc2 is really sucked runes kind of suck but I mean not kind of runes suck like they uh the experience is trash it's instead of we're on like uh let's say any smart contract platform you get a meme coin

there's a billion tokens you can buy and sell tokens freely through an amm uh listing buying and selling runes feels much more like inscriptions uh where let's say I have a million tokens if I want to sell you know a 100,000 and I have to create like what looks like an nft of 100,000 tokens and then if somebody wants to buy like 150,000 they'll have to buy my 100,000 and then find you know 50,000 and someone else is selling uh and so they like basically get broken out into lots and it's like it's it's just feels really stupid I'm going to be honest like I know we're trying to put defi on on bitcoin and that's quite ch chenging uh but it's not this is this is not it um that said like I know I owned R

miners I'm holding on to the the Rune coin that you got from holding the the ordinals um and like these things are going to probably get listed by centralized exchanges and people are very desperate to do anything with Bitcoin now Bitcoin l2s themselves are like pretty fake overall you can't really get the the bridges that we see uh over with l2s on ethereum can't really create that style of bridge yet uh without an OP code change to bitcoin so but nonetheless there's there's you know millions of dollars being poured in by VCS to bitcoin l2s and so people just like want to build something on bitcoin but honestly it just feels like we're just moving backwards like the ux is trash it's so so bad and so

you know we've figured out how to do really cool things on Smart contract platforms I would like to see more doubling down of that and I mean what that probably means is we have to bring Bitcoin off of Bitcoin chain um and that's also not that easy to do either but that is probably the more ideal route to go rather than trying to build things on bitcoin I just can't look my girl in the eye let her know tell her that like I'm trading satoshi's like I can't do that like you can everyone in the comments are probably like have fun staying poor and I probably won't have fun staying poor while R six or runes whatever you want to call them just go up only when they do get L listed on Central exchanges the cabal has said that these will pump and they shall pump

uh but I just don't know what we're doing here that's not why I get got into this game and um I just don't see I mean little pups are pretty cute I don't know what those are in brc2 ordinal world like I don't know what any of these things are anymore because like I don't pay attention to anything going on in the Bitcoin ecosystem but um yeah I'm kind of interested to see like how do amm actually how are amm actually be built in the Bitcoin blockchain is that actually a real thing or you making that up Pacho no I've I'm not making it up it's also not real yeah that's also very true it's not live yet um I know there's a couple of teams working on it I don't want to mention any of them by name just because I'm not sure if they're going to launch a proper

product uh previously there were a couple but they somehow relied on ethereum as well I don't like genuinely I don't know how it works so far all of the Bitcoin dii products have been basically like what you would imagine D5 was like before like probably the first first like def5 protocols would be like before a or like ethland I guess like ether Delta for Bitcoin yeah yeah basically like um it's I don't think they work at all but I I don't know about the Rune stuff because that's tokens on the Chain like tokens on bitcoin I don't know how useful that is especially if you're like

buying and selling and you can only buy and sell like lots of 300 400 let's say and buying that cost $200 but you also have to do like transaction fees that are like $150 so it doesn't make a lot of sense but what's the bull case for runes like what besides I'm getting besides dumping on the heads of retail that don't know any better because you got early like what is what what what's like the unlock here in that because I I just don't get it I mean what's the why would you buy a token on ethereum versus on base like ethereum is just more trustless I guess it's like more of the Sovereign chain I don't I feel like that's the same thing with Bitcoin I don't know if what I was

going to say is I don't know if like runes would work on me uh on bitcoin just because it's like why would you do that on bitcoin but one thing that actually suzu was talking about this so I don't know how great it is but one thing that he was talking about was nfds ordinals on these big chains like ethereum and um Bitcoin because like his argument is basically that nfts are culture SL they're Flex like they're like a store of value but not really they're just like a store of like wealth and he's like you want to do that on the most expensive chain so I think that makes sense but with runes I still haven't been like fully fully Rune pilled but I I don't know I we'll see like if things

come online and it becomes a lot easier who am I to say that like you can't we're trans you transact on E with you're paying $200 $300 for gas sometimes to just do basic stuff so like if that's the case just move everything Solana or SOI or something it's a good question though like I'm glad you asked that I wish the unisat is like the leading Marketplace for trading these right now um and unfortunately I can't get their website to load so I don't know if it's down that's probably bullish if so um but I want to just show you what this experience looks like because once you see it I don't know it feels differently I think magic Eden is also launching their runes trading uh platform today as well I imagine that they'll be a strong competitor in the space um but it's not live yet so I

can't really show you but what's the bull case well I mean mcoins trading has been all of Solana's bull case over the past six months right like that is the purest form of gambling and like that's what is really useful right now right we figured out amm pretty well uh and it's super easy and interactive and it's just like a pure form of gambling I I don't think that's going to be the end use case of any of this technology but gambling itself is a massive industry and only growing um and so this was supposed to bring some meme coin equivalent type activity to bitcoin uh but again like the ux is just so bad uh that I I struggle to see why you would opt into like going through this experience and the other issue with inscriptions as well so inscriptions

like Avalanche had like a three to five week period where the chain like experienced record levels of throughput uh because people were minting these things and what I realized when dabbling around with that experience was you mint at gas cost with like no fee so like you minting for cents in that world or as Pacho mentioned you know people who are minting runes uh right when post happening you're paying like 200 bucks to Mint and then you're immediately listing this at like a 100x and people are buying this and so to your point David uh like what are you doing by just turning around and dumping this on on like the the next person like that is exactly what you're doing and at least with meme coins you know you had to go through an amm and yes there are very

low liquidity uh mem coins on salana right now where the price does 10x in the matter of minutes but this is like truly if you were first you're turning around and selling at 100 100x higher minutes later and like whoever buys that 100x I mean you gota really wonder like think about the r six right so the R6 miners have been live the the ordinal was live for a couple months you were mining the Run stones and then like all right I just got aird dropped a considerable amount of these runestones and like I don't know why anybody would buy these for me I I have no idea what like other than price appreciation which again your catalyst is just a centralized exchange listing I don't I it doesn't make it makes less sense than meme coins like mem coins are very pure

form of gambling where the rules are known and because it's just amm logic um whereas this is like just a worse version of that like I don't know how else I would describe it but you you could just view this as also meme coins yeah I think it's shittier meme coins though yeah but I guess this is like before mem coin activity moved on Solana a lot of people including me were always like oh like why would you meme coins only work on E because it's expensive to sell so you can't just constantly sell sell sell but like now that's I agree with you like Solana is the marketplace like for gambling and meme coins actively

but yeah runes are just at this point they are just kind of Greater full um as for great like you're just trying to sell to a greater full but I feel like that's it's for now is my hope I last word on this is I I think the both thesis is mostly for Bitcoin miners right like they're GNA eat if you can if you can abstract away some of the difficulties with BRC 20s minting trading um miners are GNA like absolutely kill like I think I saw something this morning I don't I haven't verified the trustworthiness of the data but see uh clean spark was like I think getting about 20 7 to 28 Bitcoin per day

I think in Block rewards plus um transaction fees and post having you would think that would go down they actually doubled I think the past two days they are up four they they went from 27 and a half Bitcoin so now they're at they mined 48 Bitcoin mined plus like in terms of transaction 48 Bitcoin on the 21st which was yesterday it's like I'm assuming that's from the Catalyst of of minting these God awful like things but I mean that's pretty insane like there's no way the street knows about this so that could be some like information Arbitrage there and I will not ever sh bit deer ever again I'm so sorry that don't touch that minor um yeah just to give some some numbers

around that so yes or the 20th on 420 there was about $54 million of transaction fee Revenue uh which I believe was a single day alltime high and on the 2 first there was about 15 million uh so one thing that definitely shows me is there is serious demand for people to do things on bitcoin like that that is a no-brainer to me and at the end of the day runes are like the newest latest and greatest iteration on it and it is the best like it's an improvement on BRC 20s right so it is the best of what we got and so there will be these people who want to do things with their Bitcoin uh and this is kind of like the thing to do right now so it is worth paying attention to but like yeah we're not we're not rebuilding the Financial

infrastructure of the world with with runes but again I don't think we need to right they just need to be equally as good as memec coins that's probably really the goal um but I don't think it's quite there yet no definitely not all right let's move on um Ryan I know you have an update on IET yeah yeah so uh IET and a are announced a partnership over the weekend uh IET is a distributed GPU orchestration UI and dpin uh Aether is a decentralized cloud bare metal business uh Aether is bringing 3, h100 gpus so Leading Edge gpus this amounts to about 170,000 uh uh Tera fops to uh of compute

power to the ion uh network uh with this partn partnership they're also announcing that each project will be airdropping $50 million worth of their respective native Native token to um the other community and this is just like another announcement in a long list of I think really um really important um um pieces of news that just show that like deepin computet Network fundamentals are slowly but surely compounding compounding in the right direction uh if you look at IET they have I think 600,000 chips on their Network they're generating real Revenue about 800 ,000

has been distributed to nodes uh the render network uh similarly is annualizing about a million dollars in Revenue uh as of the their latest Burns um also on the render Network really interesting from proposal from the um former CEO and founder of stability a AI Ahmad um around hosting a um uh a billion 3D object training Set uh for foundational 3D object models um you know ion and aosh uh they have A1 100s now we have h100s on IET like that's really important on boarding for seed and series a stage startups that want to use proper gpus that you know

next step is to use those distributed 309s and 490s once they get comfortable with these decentralized compute um networks and you know biggest news kind of cherry on top um over the last few days was llama 3 so llama 3 is the state-of-the-art model now uh uh available to developers and it's open source uh the 400 billion uh parameter model is still training but it's going to match chat GPT and Cloud performance uh the 7 billion parameter model uh is actually um competitive with the uh highest parameter llama 2 models so you know developers in the open source

ecosystem are going to be getting a uh you know more bang for their buck in terms of computing efficiency and model performance so everything's really again compounding for these D pens they've amassed useful compute they're realizing real revenues uh they're positioned for the next leg of growth with these high performance chips and now devs have a state-of-the-art um llm uh that is just as powerful as close Source uh Alternatives yeah I think this is pretty impressive uh like the ather uh IET partnership because like what you said 3,00 h100s like because I know IET historically is like to say

like we have whatever a trillion gpus on our Marketplace but like most of them are just consumer grade gpus no real world like AI ml Engineers G be leveraging that for any like model training inference or what have you um but h100s are like the real deal uh and I think AOS today only has like 370 gpus on their Marketplace in total and I think majority of them are A1 100s or some of the um the RTX 6000s I believe uh so the fact that IET just with this partnership loans be have 3,000 like top quality like commercial grade gpus like really good for them um I think that really puts a lot of the other like

theashes of the world like kind of in a corner and they're GNA have to figure out a better distribution mechanism to get more um high quality GPS on their platform form so that's really exciting who's winning this like Supply Battle um because you know there's a set number of physical gpus that exist in the world if you're one of these decentralized compute uh platforms you're competing for a portion of that market uh and presumably that's in my head that's what you'd be competing for right now is like all right let's win the supply and then we can kind of win the demand down the line who is winning that Supply Battle today it appears to be IET uh it really appears to be I IET um I know that ather

has a ton of really high performant chips I don't know how accessible they are today but it it does appear to be IET and then I think it was filecoin uh is doing something interesting because their netwk they're like service providers or like the basically the nodes that store all the data have like had these crazy requirements which basically LED them to having all this GPU power that they don't really use for filecoin but now these machines are kind of sitting there with all this this idle power that I think they're opting into one of these networks and kind of like pumping their GPU power towards them do you know what I'm talking about by chance yeah so um the uh miners on filecoin have contributed uh over a

thousand gpus to IET to utilize that excess compute and like IET is like a little misunderstood like I know it's a very popular project but yeah like yes they are deepin but what they really are is just like this orchestration UI that if you have excess compute power like you don't have to build out the uh like Ray and kubernetes infrastructure yourself just plug into IET and they'll they'll act as the distribution arm for those compute resources for you so they made it really easy for render and file coin to on board um like make their gpus available to the world uh through that UI didn't they also have an issue recently where somebody was providing um

I don't know what it's called like virtual gpus just basically they flooded the market with compute and then ion had to say I we recognize that the there are like malicious actors basically trying to farm the token yeah undoubtedly and I think like anyone who's paying attention like they kind of saw the IET numbers like really Spike up and like there has to be spoofing there like undoubtedly there's going to be some poofing um and you see like all these networks like all these D pins uh you know you've seen it in helium you've SE seen it with Hive maper location spoofing um you know 99% of it it's solved but not all of it's solved all the time and they did adjust their numbers I think that they posted they had over 800,000 chips on the

network it's now down to 600,000 I wouldn't be surprised if it marked down again at any rate like if you look at what's going on in the network they have a cluster of 320 a 100 gpus and they have like pretty solid utilization rate on that cluster so like there's real activity going on there um there's real demand there and there's there there's real There's real flops on that Network and I don't know it's on salana right like I should know this and I I truly don't yeah so things have changed I'm not completely up to speed um but they due to congestion problems on salana I think that they've onboarded some of their infrastructure to to abas that's really I was go to say like

I'm I'm curious how they've handled the whole Sal congestion issues but I think that's that's the case and actually like that's a really good uh I think case study or test case to see like is block space commoditized right if an if a large scale or one of the large scale like GPU providers or marketplaces in crypto in IET can just get up and leave at least a portion of their infrastructure and G we're just going to start Deploy on aptose and a snap a finger uh because let's be honest like the Sal congestion issues really only popped up what a month ago Z Dan you might know better than everyone else but I want to say it was only a few weeks ago a month ago that this happened and they immediately announced like that after those part partnership I which I I knew about it completely drew a blank on

um that's gonna be interesting to see like if this continues to be an issue like once uh an application hits a certain threshold that they just either max out the the throughput of a given chain themselves or if they run into other issues like if apas runs into an issue like are they going to start deploying on sui uh or do you actually eventually see like sakach approach which is like the app chain Vision where they kind of own the entire sack themselves they really limit or control the throughput um at their Leisure so that's gonna be interesting to see like how that I think um changes over the next year or so yeah it's a good question and your time on there is right like the congestion problems have been brewing for a couple months but I've really hit a boil boiling over point

last couple weeks um but it's interesting to think about the construction of these things because akos kind of took the separate route where you know they they're building out on the cosmos SDK as an app chain so they don't have to worry about these congestions problems outside of like what their own app can generate uh and there's just like interesting trade-offs there but I was about to ask the same question David and you're right I think it was honestly last week we did the the news update that the that IET was moving to some of their infr 2 appos which is funny but yeah it's interesting just to kind of see the design trade-offs and you're right like if moving your app is that easy uh then why not just Deploy on like three of the five fastest most high throughput capable chains um that saves

you the headache of having to run your own infrastructure like running your own app chain is not just like it sounds great but there's a whole you know devops perspective to to actually running that or launch an ABS and low Dragon layer or something maybe once slashing is on yeah um talking about abss uh and roll there's a couple of new um I guess incentivizing schemes over in L2 land on ethereum uh scroll launch sessions uh to encourage bridging over of Stak de e and stone which is apparently uh staked e variety I had I just learned about that

today um and Ryan Network launched a liquidity generation event shout out mcau for this one where they distribute XP to users to incentivize deposits um ryas an arbitrum arbitrum orbit L2 and it's kind of this bar chain also does this it's one of these new networks um that enshrines def5 protocols Kanto also kind of did this but they didn't enshrine it they just launched with it and Rya has a clearing protocol uh to deal with margins Etc because I think they have an inbuilt per de as well uh LP pool and stable coin and trained into the network so this is like I think we're seeing a lot of these generalized

l2s try and differentiate themselves in one way or another um but I really don't like this is the only thing that I'm probably not like perpetually optimistic about is that I don't want this many Els like I it's my nightmare to have to bridge over to a million things and even though it's really exciting I think like before it was a lot more exciting because when you um participated in in these things you would get like you would liquidity mind and you would get immediate rewarding you know you would get like in instant but now with this whole points program like R is doing XP Distributing XP when when am I getting that into tokens like what am I supposed to do with this why would I give you we'll talk about this later as well with

Z casino but like you want me to bridge over something for your like arbitrum orbit L2 with no immediate return and I don't know when I'm going to be able to pull that money back and then at the end of the day like are you really building something particularly like lifechanging games changing the podcast made me a bit pessimistic now but I don't know welcome to the club eternal optimist pachio pessimistic I never heard that I think you actually tweeted today about not being a pessimist and why it's important to be an optimist no yeah I did but this one just really really upset me just because this is liter like I this protocol could do really well this is

like it could genuinely do well the thing is that it's literally a combination of like two things it's just like an arbitrum orbit L2 oneclick deploy not oneclick deploy there's some devops but it's like regularly easy to kind of easy to deploy and then it's like basically the bar chain Canto oh we're gonna like launch with protocol it's not that new but they're positioning themselves as new it slightly upsets yeah I mean I me at this point you're likely using um a Ras deployer like conduit and it literally is like one or two clicks and you have a full blockchain it's actually I mean that from that angle it's kind of cool but I agree with you like we're just

launching all these chains and interupt sucks and it's not so much fragmentation of liquidity specifically anymore right because there's like seven or eight l2s that have over a billion dollars of liquidity like that that's not the the fact that you're fragmenting the liquidity so much it's that you're fragmenting the applications and the users so now to get in between chains like yeah sure the liquidity is fine on two destination chains but you still have to move there if you want to use a different app and it's hard like app developers have to choose which chain they build their infrastructure on like yes you can do multiple chains but like that it becomes a larger operation than just deploying on one spot where the users are and you can interact with all of them um so yes the liquidity problem

isn't I would say a huge huge deal uh of course these l2s are still very much battling over that but it's you really fragment the the users and the developers in the applications that's really the real problem here uh with Rya specifically it's almost like they're going for that like sector specific chain I actually think like SE used that in their original branding when they launched um the their original Cosmos chain of like Hey we're going to focus on bringing defi we're going to have core Primitives into the you know ingrained in the chain on day one I think it was the like they had the validators of the chain running oracles like everything on the same chain on that chain was using the same Oracle feeds so stuff like that um I agree it's not like super super new but I also

don't think anyone's done it right either so and bar chain hasn't launched yet and like there kind of a new iteration on this as you mentioned but yeah I don't know like is that going to be better than arbitrum or something that already has liquidity mind share attention it's hard to say no it's a no it's not hard to say it's no it's be better let's be honest No One's Gonna use it yeah and like on the farming side too like okay the first points program is super effective let's say it's 100% effective but to Bach's Point too like there is some diminishing returns you're getting when you're the 73rd points program to launch especially in the same sector like okay blast did absorb a couple

billion dollars of liquidity when they launched their points program but now like I don't know it's being an L2 launching points it's not like you're going to get another two billion dollars2 billion dollar of deposits like blasted yeah I yeah the one thing with the building that um trading focused L2 thing is that I think it's not the right approach to immediately build that I think dydx did really well like where they were on a chain you know get a lot of I mean obviously it's also like a well established protocol it's been some time now but like another example would be hyper liquid is like I think they originally launched on arbitrum and they were only on arbitrum and then they launched like an L1 and it's the same with dydx like they were on a chain and

then they launched an L1 so I think like while you're gaining users slash like establishing yourself you want that liquidity that the original chain offers and then once you have some regular users then you can build out the L1 and like get rid of the noise and neighbor problem but I think just the trading focused L1 L2 I like you people want Tred and trusted and stuff that they're familiar with they don't want to just Bridge you over to a new chain you're you're not going to get get any like organic users you're going to get some guy who's bought spot e shorted spot e or something some shorted e on Futures on your chain and that's how like they're just farming you not like

actually using the uh exchange strong G all right moving on we're now going to have a quick word from tapioca uh thanks to our fantastic sponsor layer zero all right guys for this week's layer zero segment we have Matt founder at Tapioca And Omni chain money market thank you so much for coming on Matt thank you so much for having me I really appreciate it so just to start us off what is an omni chain money market and what type of user Behavior does it enable Yeah so basically what uh what tapioka enables is for users from many many many different networks whether they're evm or even non evm to uh to

basically borrow lend leverage up um and uh open cdps uh basically from from any chain and previously you know before um you know you would have like protocols like a where they're deployed in isolated deployments to each chain like you have an isolated deployment of a V3 on ethereum then you have the same deployment on optimism and the two can't cross communicate um whereas basically using layer zero tapioca is able to have like one eth market across every chain so regardless if you're on a layer 2 you know if you're on ethal one um you're able to borrow lend leverage from that one you know from that one market so you get a lot more Capital

efficiency you know from having just one market and not fracturing and fragmenting all the liquidity everywhere and uh secondarily also just user experience Wise It's a lot nicer to not have to switch chains and then go oh optimism is more liquidity the rates cheaper let me go bridge over there or we go Bridge back over here so um it just takes a lot of steps out and makes the ux a lot cleaner as well so essentially um in layer Z V1 they had payloads where you could just write a huge um you know piece of data that you wanted to send from chain to chain and actually that caused us that we needed you know giant payloads to execute multiple contracts on different chains stuff like that whereas with layer zero

V2 that's all natively able to be done so now the executor in the layer zero model can now uh trigger um different design patterns where you can have like ABA calls where you send the message to let's say ethereum to arbitrum then arbitrum back to ethereum like a recursive message um or like ABC call where you go to like three different networks in one message so it you there's actually a lot of like horizontal and vertical compossibility you can do with ofs and this has only ever been able to be done with layer zero um so it it's unlocked a lot for us with especially layer zero V2 which just came out in January ni that there has been a sort of Ideal

solution for you to build this out and super cool to see like what it's enabled to actually uh something else I wanted to ask is does tapioca have any exciting fans on the road map for the next 12 months oh yeah so we we've been we've been building with layer zero for the last two years um I mean just pretty much day one we we were building on layer zero V1 and then project Ence came out we built on that then L zero V2 came dbn came out we're running our own dvn called pearlet um but essentially um we we've been building the whole time so we're finally getting close to uh to release and Genesis um of of our protocol which is awesome um and I I think people are going to be really

excited the next uh probably in the next month here uh what what we're going to be uh coming out with we don't have a hard date yet but um we're very very close TM so just one last question on that front you know lar Z2 has a whole bunch of dvns available why did you guys choose to sort of like use your own dvn instead of like opting into like an existing dbn that ler zero has yes yes so first I'll touch on that so A dbn is a decentralized verifier Network essentially um you know in layer zero and basically any cross chain um messaging protocol you normally have uh some type of uh relayer executor to to actually execute the message on on the

destination um and then you have a a verif verification model which generally will be like a multisig an oracle you know something like that um so in these two parties kind of work together to actually execute messages um the biggest thing with dbn's that um I think a lot of people haven't picked on on yet uh because I think there's going to be hundreds of dvns very very soon but um is is being able to be Sovereign um you know the I think the multi-chain exploit on Phantom could have been a lot different if each application was Sovereign over their own cross-chain communication um so with layer zero you already see I think there's about 30

dvns right now so like a protocol like us you know will be Sovereign over our messaging gelato network has one polyedra has like you know there's tons and tons of of dvns which is great and the coolest thing just add is you can mesh these dvns in their X event of many model so you can basically reduce trusting like us with pearlet and you know require let's say a two or three threshold out of pronet Google cloud polyhedra and gelato so that you can you know have two of two of those three um you know verify a message essentially so you're not trusting any single one of them nice that was super eloquently explained so really appreciate but

unfortunately that's all we have time for today but thank you so much for coming on Matt now moving on to our hot seat Crone segment all right we're back one of the biggest things that happened this week was Z Casino I don't know if you guys all have time to look into that or read about it but basically Z casino's a gambling platform and they took 10.5k e worth approximately 32 million United States dollars uh worth from their users who bridged onto the chain transferred it over to a three of four multisig and staked it with Lio um previous ly they had advertised that users can liquidity mine the native token zcast by bridging e to the chain

and they on their website they explicitly said all the e bridged over will be returned and bridged back instead they staked it with Lio and gave users vested like vesting zcat back so they put it I think it's 12 months it might be 18 um yeah and then now all of their basically um the people who invested in them Mech C and uh the the remaining investors have basically like said we don't want to be associated with the team I think big brain Holdings was they claimed that big brain Holdings who were pretty big um they invested in salana and stuff they zcast claimed that Z Casino claimed that

they had invested but they came out and said we haven't so this is like today has just been kind of crazy because if you scroll the timeline you're just seeing a bunch of passport pictures of the Founders and they're like death threats everywhere and it's just like very very serious honestly it was like kind of a depressing as you see people say hey like I'm gonna come find you and etc etc but I don't know if you guys what you guys think of it so did they basically steal the $30 million my take is that they're probably just taking it to earn some yield on it and they will return it back I think originally they wanted to just steal it which is like kind of crazy that they

thought they could get away with $32 million uh that's a lot of money but then I think like they had to shut down telegram channels because they were hiring Hitman in the channel so it's like I think they now hopefully they're gonna return the money back is this the same Z Casino didn't they post the video of someone getting hit by a car and like triy to make a joke out of it or something yeah they did I mean to me that's like the classic story of where there's smoke there's fire like I mean I don't know I don't know much about the Z Casino team so I don't want to go saying things but like there there were like signs that they weren't the

greatest people of all time such as laughing at people getting hit by cars is z Casino in L2 they went and made an L2 with like I think it was a oneclick deploy kind of L2 as well yeah the interesting thing to me I mean the the takeaway for me here I mean there's not much like it is what it is um but how you see these different ecosystems just like having their own personality like there are like there's the cipher Punk chains there are the uh Casino chains there's the developer oriented chains and then there's the

absolute like scam like B part of the neighborhood chains and this seems to be seems to be one of them yeah that's actually a good classification there and I would like absolutely never condone you know trying to threaten someone's life that's taking things way too far um but it is interesting that I feel like you should kind of be weary if you know at this point in this in the market cycle if a team that was building a product that maybe like wasn't getting the pmf and they're like oh we need to launch an L2 like that's the that's the valuation juicer these days is just like pivot to being an L2 it'll be interesting to see how much longer that lasts because I think the Market's kind of waking up to not everything needs an

L2 and it's really easy to launch an L2 now with like things like uh Ras deployers where it literally is a couple clicks and you have a chain um and so like I think that you need to kind of an eyebrow needs to go up at this point in the M Market cycle if someone's just like H our product isn't great we're going to launch an L2 these guys raise that 250 mil it's quite a bit of money like I think I don't know they just announced it I don't know when they raised it but like I think roll bit is at like 500 mil right now which is the leading like gambling platform it doesn't have its own chain it's not on L2 but like raising at 250 mil is a lot for something yeah with a Rass

deployed well DJ's not too dissimilar right like DJ launched an L3 that was kind of like the heart uh the hot thing to do is you know they were the first L3 on base um that's just the RAS deploy as well launching a Chain's hard though I think like it sounds really great on paper but there's a lot of moving parts right you need to get a block explore up you need to get your data somewhere so that people can actually build uh insights like something like a flip side or a dune like you need reliable RPC providers you need you know if you want to decentralize you're going to need like a node Network like it's it's not hard to just launch one but it's like hard to properly operate One exchange Integrations as well I mean that's the big thing these these

exchanges they decide basically who lives and who dies if they want to allow people to offboard to your ecosystem um it seems really hard for the RAS guys to they they need that relationship desperately it doesn't seem like they're getting it great flag as well as like getting chain link or another Oracle provider on your chain so like lending markets can work and and uh pers markets can work getting native usdc or usdt on your CH like it is like there's a lot of BD that goes into successfully launching a chain which is kind of another reason why I've just been so skeptic so skeptical of like the million world of a million chains thesis like it just it just doesn't add up like we we need we need more chains I think that's you know

apparent um we need faster chains that's apparent uh we need to continue breaking the fastest chain so we get faster chains um but I just don't know if we need to that's that doesn't seem realistic do ras providers give you a bridging like a way to bridg in as well apart from I assume they give you a canonical one but like do they have uh partners for example if I was using let's say Caldera are they like partnered with another chain another bridge that could provide it or no I feel like I don't think so but that would be a there you go watch out if you want to hire a BD person as a r deployer picachio seems to be your

guy wow um next oh wayfinder AI is one thing that I wanted to talk about because I know that um it was they just dropped their like I guess teaser you can't you don't you can't really see a lot of it um but it basically shows somebody typing in saying can you buy X can you buy I think they're trying to buy DJ on base with Ono from from ethereum and the agent does it I um we talked about wayfinder AI on here actually like I think two weeks ago every time I come on here I talk about AI agents and then back then Sam was like I don't see the point of

this and today I assume we'll have another person saying I don't see the point of this but overall like I think it's like these things are going to move so so fast and one thing that we talked about this earlier today was the rest of the research team as well and one thing that I think a lot of people looked at the video and they were like oh like I can just do this on my own like I can just open the wallet click you know it's not that many clicks anymore as well if you're trying to buy something on bases you bridge over and then you buy but stuff like moving from like let's say a c an obscure Cosmos L1 to and moving into like an L3 you don't want to deal with all those clicks I don't need like and you can tell the agent to do that

for me so I think that's going to be a huge huge ux Improvement um curious to hear what you guys think though yeah I think my general thoughts I I watched the wayfinder AI video as you guys already know I I came in pretty hot in some of our chats I was like this is absolutely useless like I don't really see the purpose of this and I kind of sat back and like I I rewatched it and I think for like the for swaps for bridging and swaps I feel like everyone's kind of already copied and pasted like the old Unis swap UI it's very simple it's clean everyone uses it it's ubiquitous right and like for General swaps it's pretty easy already and I don't see an llm type interface that they showed being like a

GameChanger like I don't think I'm gonna be typing in like swap dgen for whatever Ono like I'm lit just gonna be like click click click click Swap and it works um and it's to me it's like much simpler and easier I think it's overall better UI what I did like was like how they actually showed the providing liquidity piece like uh they just had to say like provide this much liquidity to this chain in this pool and it did it like there is no canonical UI for doing that I've seen manyy different like ways of doing it and I think like abstracting that away abstracting other defi activities away or onchain activities away from users through an llm interface like I can see getting more adoption I think what this really boils down to is

like and this is not just like a web 3 thing that people are trying to figure out like web two as well like what is the new form factor and the new like UI that we as humans are going to like to use in the age of AI like that is what you're seeing a bunch of new devices come out where it's like I don't know if you guys saw the Humane pin or human pin right it's like a pin you tap it in you like press a button you tell it what you want it to do um so like there's a lot of the entire Tech sector I think is trying to figure out what is this next step of form factoring UI for humans interact with like Tech uh and I think this is kind of like boils down to the same like thing that I'm trying to think

about like um so yeah I'll pause there but those are overall like s thoughts I I don't think this is like gamechanging like can smart agents maybe be an interesting use case for crypto long term sure but I still it's still murky to me exactly like how and when it's going to be used my takea away from watching this was I mean yeah I I definitely hear you right like I'm not going to use something like that to go make a trade on something where it's like you know through Unis swap right like I'm just going to go use the UI I can do it faster than asking an llm to do it for me but what I noticed was there was no transaction signing and that's that's a ux unlock uh so think about something like opening a

like opening a a borrow on a and then swapping that token for something else to like lever long eth let's say so I deposit collateral I then I borrow the asset and then I make a swap that's like with approvals and whatnot that's like seven or eight transactions um and if you can just say hey here's what I want to go do go do it for me that is a massive ux upgrade so like chaining transactions together uh definitely feels like an upgrade and then maybe it's easier to onboard this way because you need to know less to be able to execute things um so I think it's broadly a ux Improvement but maybe not for the true on onchain D gen which quite frankly is the probably the average user of a lot of these apps is quite Technical and quite capable of

executing the trades um but yeah I mean this is definitely like a V1 there's no doubt about it and like you actually the Humane pin's a good example here that I'm blank on his name but the big Tech reviewer basically did a a video on it just absolutely on it and the reality is it's a V1 product and this is going to be very hard to perfect similar to how like when the first Tesla launched it was a piece of the the car would just literally fall apart or combust on fire half the time right uh the V2 was less and then today we have like a very functional electric vehicle um and so there is definitely some iteration that'll need to happen here uh which I think is kind of Pico's point of

like be be an optimist here the V1 is going to suck it it just is right um the V1 iPhone was pretty shitty as well and now we have something that's ingrained into your daily life a decade later so I think that's kind of my initial view on this but it does feel like an immediate ux upgrade uh for some for some things it's be interesting to see like what percentage of people are going to be willing to trust an AI agent with it's their funds like I'll Trust to tell me how to code something I'll like give me a code I want to write a script for XYZ like sure if it gets it wrong gets it wrong I don't lose any money in the process it maybe lose a little bit of time um but like if it how does it know like how do it actually know was it was

the actual success rate or failure rate of identifying the right token I want to swap to or uh getting the right execution path all the time so it knows the right liquidity pools that offer me the best execution price that those are the types of things that like that is going to take a lot lot of time for people to get comfortable with using it in size that we might not ever get there until we have like literally the perfect AI agent yeah I think Hallucination is the big thing here like if chat GPT can make mistakes and you're like just losing time maybe like 30 seconds saying that's wrong can you fix that but now you might actually lose like all your money and but like one thing is if you watch

that video it very clearly like ask asks it's like hey like I'm going to do this um is this the correct path like this to is this is the token I'm going to buy but at the end of the day that's also not a huge ux Improvement because I have to keep being like yes like instead of clicking the transaction I'm like yes yes yes but but for its context like because this is specifically built for the game for the game I think it's fine because for the game you're going to put like a little bit of money and then your AI is going to like go invade stuff etc etc for like broader stuff I don't see how this can be used for like automated trading Etc I think it'll be difficult and the big issue is that we love naming

coins the same exact name as other coins there's like a million trillion of the same coin even sometimes now like if you go on Deck screener and you write with wif you'll come up with like five tokens before the actual dog with that you'll come up with five different like random tokens it'll be like oh shark with cat or something like that that's a separate token actually but basically it's like this more like Bitcoin and Bitcoin I tell it to buy Bitcoin it goes by it goes and buys Harry Potter Obama Sonic what am I supposed to do there like I need to I constantly need to check the contract so that's the big thing and that comes to like how well can AI learn crypto because it's pretty Niche and there isn't a lot of documentation good

documentation out there what if it becomes like an xrp maxy what am I supposed to do then you know we need to be careful with how we teach these that's a good point too I think it's pretty obvious that um agents are going to be the vast majority of crypto transactions over a long enough time frame I mean if you look at something like salana I don't know the precise numbers but there are a lot of bots hitting salana because it is so cheap so if you have a bot friendly environment like the Bots are going to swarm because it's like just better to execute whatever you're trying to execute um I think the problem with agents today is simply the timing and I'm going to operate under the assumption that web 2

just an aggregate nothing against web 3 but has far more AI Dev talent and agents are bad in web 2 like even the open AI agents that they're putting together like like really cool proof of concept I'm really excited to see what comes next but they're not there today and it's taking a long time first heard of Agents maybe 18 months ago or more um when agent GPT launched I think it was called they still haven't gotten it so I think from like a timing perspective if you're an investor if you're playing with these tools like it's really still proceed with caution and the reason why I I'm not bearish on agents themselves um and I'm

not necessarily bearish on way founder AI I actually would love for them to jump on the on the pot on episode one day for like Picacho to grill them and ask like really insightful questions I am hesitant specifically what Ryan said I'm hesitant to believe that web 3 developers be able to bring agents on chain before an open AI a meta is be able to do it I see this as an opportunity to stick to the narrative launch a token and have a really a quick liquidity event for the developer teams before any real products launch so like I'm pessimist in the the reasons why developers are trying to cling on to this narrative today not not necessarily like the ca this use case

for smart agents on chain rails I 100% agree like they will be a dominant overing majority of onchain transactions in the future it's like crypto rails are like obviously the perfect use case for AI to interact in the financial system like that's clear uh it's more so like it's way too early to shill this type of product to a base that uh is not going to get any Real World Adoption it's not gonna get any no production ready AI agent is going to come to on chain in the next like five years if I did that I mean yeah like look the reality is we don't really have like once chat GPT comfortably has right access over people's computers and like it works like then we can probably build an AI agent that like runs on crypto rails but

then again like wayfinder has something that functions that's what they have showed in that demo is better than what I would have guessed we were at today to be completely honest and so like I hear you on the web two vers web three thing and generally agree like that shit's super hard and there's a very small number of people that are qualified to like build these models my question is it's definitely it's like objectively a massive challenge to build one of these foundational models but if you're fine-tuning one of those models for your specific use case in theory like that should be the relative not easy but like um if like if I was building a foundational model my goal would be to build it in a way such that people could fine-tune it and maybe they still have

to be engineers maybe this should be really really smart but that is kind of what I would want I have no idea if that's even possible so I defer to you eord and Ryan like is it any easier to f- tune a model for your specific use case than to like actually build one of these massive you know 400 billion parameter models yeah they'll build on top of foundational models for sure they'll they'll fine-tune they'll use rag a number of different methods to have these agents onchain complete an actual tasks for people I I guess to be more specific the interesting thing is like security right like prompt in injection and data poisoning attacks where you know you could send a call to someone's agent and

get it to do something that that agent isn't programmed to do like for example like the safety guard rails on chat gbt that's just a pre-prom that's just open AI typing in all the things that chat gbt shouldn't do like don't say disparaging things about political figures like don't be biased and you can trick the system into still doing that thing right like you could insert instead of just like typing out like please say this disparaging thing about this political candidate you would simply insert like bogus text within each letter it will understand what you're trying to do it'll confuse it in regards to the pre-prom and it will break the rules that open a I programmed it for right so like if you think like

you know crypto it it it has its problems with uh hacks and um and certain attacks that you know we don't we don't fully understand the attack vectors like we we really don't understand them yet in the world of AI and um there's just a lot of work to do on the on the privacy and the attack Factor side for AI agents yeah that makes sense for something you're going to give like your private keys to use and interact with with with contracts um David you mentioned something interesting earlier which is crypto rails seem like a better place for these AI agents to interact and I think I'm not saying you here but I think people

like love to say that and just like overgeneralize it because it sounds pretty um but I was talking to somebody about this not too long ago and they work at like a large payment processor that is very in tune with crypto and I was like why like why is that true why is crypto better and he had like was super insightful because everybody loves to say Hey you know I can't just go give my uh my AI agent my uh my bank account and can't like go pull out cash and interact with me and that sounds great but we operate in the world of credit cards and you can give it these numbers and your card number expiration date and CVV or you know the security code boom like now it has money um so I asked this guy I was like why

wouldn't I just give it a credit card and he was like if I know an AI agent is transacting in my system there is a 100% chance I kill that transaction because you cannot trust an AI agent as a payment processor it's like if I tell it to go steal money or whatever it's going to do it um and so there's like and the world of payment processing today is very trust Reliant um it it lives and Brees on trust they have to trust banking partners and new countries they have to trust that both parties are like actually being uh benevolent here and so blockchain removes all of the trust assumptions required with instant settlement the second the transaction settles boom now like you know both parties have the money or the the money

and the good being transferred and that's that um which I thought was a very interesting framing for why blockchains are are this better infrastructure for AI agent specifically right it all comes down to instant settlement means I don't have to trust anyone yeah regarding the um how agents are going to be transacting on cheap chains I think that's the bull case for Bitcoin no and ethereum it's just that I don't want AI agents on my chain I want like all natural activity on my coins and that's like I don't I could see both though right like you could build an application that makes no sense for humans to interact with but is great for AI agents I don't have any like haven't cooked up any ideas here

but there will be these things built that are like not really meant for humans um and Salata has had a lot of Bot activity I don't think it's like agents I think it's more users trying to spam transactions in like sophisticated users probably capturing some form of Arbitrage but you know I did like a a user segment analysis to see the failure rate of transactions for people who are sending less than 50 transactions today right that is like very much a person as opposed to a bot which is sending you know a million transactions today um and like somebody responded like well why are you just calling people users like you know AI agents or Bots like those are valid users um they're just using the chain in a different way and it's like a really good point like I don't

think the users of in web to or with something like Facebook that your user is very much a human being an individual human but in the web of tomorrow like I don't necessarily think your user has to be a human and there will just be two classes of users one that is like a a bot or an AI agent something of that nature and one is like the traditional person just depends on what the bot is doing right like Bots act on behalf of humans they add value they minimize friction um you you want uh those type of bots to participate in your network yeah I think it's going to be difficult because we also like this is not related to blockchain Technologies but I don't think like we I think it's

like inherently when you look at a bot transacting on chain like you're going to be like that's not a user that's a bot it's just the way that we view other stuff but this is not related to crypto um last up is Avalanche I know effort capital is very interested in what's happening over there do you want to give a Roundup yeah so there's a bunch of things going on in the Avan ecosystem right now that I think is pretty much coming flying under the radar uh with salana and like suie and like all these other move and paralyzed uh execution environments are I think taking a lot of the the Mind share but Avalanche has some couple couple really interesting things going on so first thing is so they announc Vicks back in late January V YX and what it I guess the the

technical term is decoupled State machine replication but layman's terms what that means like in blockchain architecture today transactions uh come in uh from you know the front ends from rpcs uh the blockchain sequences those transactions like a block actually gets built and then uh the block is executed and then that executed block is then replicated and gossiped across across the network to the other different validators or notes in in the uh in the set what Vick is able to do is actually kind of parallel path these things so no no longer do you have to do it in that sequential order of sequencing uh execution and then replication you're actually able to kind of do these things in um really like I guess in replication

sequencing execution you can do it in really different orders pretty much parallel path these things and really increase the throughput of the overall network uh on a chain by Chain basis so Avalanche announced this thing called Vicks back in late January uh to really it's really the I guess the foundation of this new thing called H hyp SDK which is allowing chains to really launch like app specific chains or general purpose chains on the Avalanche SDK and offer like 100,000k 100,000 plus TPS um and really hopefully like launch like the most performant chains you can in the entire crypto space um just over the weekend it might have been Friday but just over the weekend uh Patrick orady who I think is

like the head of engineering uh for Labs he tested uh Vicks on uh 50 geographically distributed nodes and they were able to test five billion micro payments at 100,000 TPS with over 10 million active accounts um and what they showed was that this only uh I think leveraged like 35% of validator CPUs and they don't think like this is actually the limit of the architecture even though this are simple transfers I think the next test is going to do like more stateful transactions um but I think like the overall thing I think all like the listeners to take away from this is that Avalanche has is making like Leaps and Bounds improvements on their Tech stack uh it's going to be

very simple to launch app chains which they already have subnets today but uh it's going to be even simpler to launch these subnets soon because there's some interesting uh Avalanche proposals like ACP 13 that's launching soon that pretty much allows uh subnets to launch uh with a validator set and that validator set doesn't necessarily have to be part of the pchain um I won't get into all the details around that right now but uh you're going to be able to launch probably in Q3 Q4 your own chain uh with low overhead uh and run your chain at over 100,000 TPS which if that is what production ready uh subnets can can offer uh you know in real world not

necessarily just in a test net case then that's incredibly uh promising I think offering for developers that want to come into the space and I think that there's a real chance that like Avalanche is has its own like narrative um later on in the back half of this year but I know that Dan you did like a whole Deep dive into Avalanche and like this really comprehensive report that's on blockor researches like research portal uh anything you want to add here yeah that one's free uh maybe we'll put a link in the description so you can check that report out but yeah I mean overall the vision of avalanche moving forward is how do we be a place where developers can come and launch a customizable High throughput chain right

we call we use the phrase like app chains a lot but really what they are just like optimized blockchains where you're optimizing a chain for your specific use case um and so right now the kind of the gold standard of how to build an app chain is the cosmos SDK uh just is it's easy it's flexible there's something like 80 or so live uh Cosmos chains connected the IBC and communicating uh map of zones is a great place to check out what this what this looks like in the in in production um large developer Community pretty good Tech relatively easy to spin one of these things up it's just become very customizable um and quite good with now once you start getting these developers into your ecosystem and building

projects you start to get some network network effects on the tech side right like dydx has pushed this forward quite a bit or you know say had some uh interesting things that they did on the consensus side um and so that has kind of been again this gold standard of how to launch an app chain and nobody's really been able to successfully challenge it uh but Avalanche is a really really interesting competitor as we move out into the later half of the year when a lot of this stuff goes live the hyper SDK is kind of like their SDK where you can come in and build these customizable chains with your own VM uh so you could do something like a very app specific chain where you don't have to worry about any of the the startup of kind of like building a blockchain VM

and you can just come in and tweak just the pieces you need for your specific use case uh so again if you're going to be like a pers order uh an order book per decks and you want to be your own chain you could like just tweak that part of the consensus mechanism and like kind of get you know the the thing the the piece that you needed um to launch this an app chain which is really really cool and Vicks is very interesting it's like a they're basically revamping the transaction processing mechanism um yeah and like 100k TPS with just simple trans transfers is pretty interesting in those in those test results because um there was 50 nodes uh and I think we're getting to a point where you're going to probably want to

decentralize like the RS are getting a lot of push back for just being like like why are we doing this in the first place just running in a sequencer or running in a server like web 2 style like if you have one sequencer like what are you really accomplishing um I think that's starting to become an increasingly important narrative uh and app chains give you a way to to get into a decentralized validator set right out of the box so again Avalanche is pushing for custom customiz uh customization and throughput and Vicks is kind of the solution to throughput and the hyp SDK is is again that that leaning into customization um so I'm pretty excited about what they're doing the question is like how do you get people building over there that

prove the value of this thing 100% I mean they have all the pieces right they have awm so it's effectively like avalanche's version of IBC You could argue that it's actually better than IB see I won't get into technical reasons why uh so they have interoperability they have the SDK that's launching later this year 100,000 TPS uh chains hyper performer chains um VM agnostic so it's not Everyone likes to say at least like the narrative I think from a lot e. eths is that oh it's just like a fork of gu it's like no it's really not actually this uh subnets are are VM agnostic just a c chain is a fork of gu like an optimized version of that they're doing a lot of interesting things like monad is getting you know manad is like everyone's

favorite new chain that hasn't launched yet but it somehow has a community that's able to get airdrops don't even get me started on that but monad is like everyone's favorite chain that's coming out because they did a lot of like optimization at the database level of the evm it's like has anyone looked at any of the work that Avalanche has done on the in the exact same topic like they're I think it's called firewood firewood yeah yeah it's a great point they originally rewrote the datab base I'm blanking on the name now but firewood is like the the second one that they've Rewritten and state growth and management is like the Pinnacle problem of of all of this industry um andad is is doing some work there as well but yeah avalanche's firewood uh I don't think we have the benchmarks for firewood yet but it's again going back

in the vein of performance like I think where the edge will be for avalanch is is performance like for the they have snowman consensus comes out of the box with a subnet and that is one of they uses sub sampling is one of the most scalable consensus mechanisms if you look at the app chain landscape in Cosmos you're using tendermint and tendermint doesn't really scale well past I think the I think the cosmos subub has 180 validators that's the largest um and they like think they could probably get a little more out of it but you're not hitting that definitely not hitting that like a thousand node um spot without trading off on on performance and the primary Network today has about 2,000 or so 1800 to 2200 somewhere in that ballpark of active validators because snowman scales

really well so you have a better consensus mechanism you're going to have a better transaction processing mechanism uh once Vick is integrated and goes live right if you're getting anywhere near 100K TPS you're that's that's industry best um awm is a great communication protocol uh and so now you really start getting the full package right out of the right out of the box and that is going to be interesting again it comes out of the BD like can they get the right teams in there building the right things that kind of spin this flywheel and one thing I think they can do to push in that vein is put all of this live on the C chain today because David to your point everyone just sees oh chain shitty gu fork okay cool make it not one and you have the tools to do that

100% they um Avalanche had a good push on the real world asset narrative a few months back I don't know if you guys remember this but they did like a proof of concept of KP Morgan and axel and layer zero as well where they used a subnet um to basically do transactions um I think that should be like uh um like monad versus Avalanche okay like monad just has a great like that's I'm not talking about the tech side they just like they have a fantastic like bdg growth team they've done a really good job and it's like that perfect mix of like CT native but not like you're not fighting like PVP on their chain or at

least that's the sense I'm getting like you're gonna be okay because it's like relatively the pie is going to be like relatively evenly divided as opposed to I would say like blast and what I think bar chain will be like which will be like there these are very CT native but they're going to be like tough environments um but one issue that Avalanche has just had is that it it hasn't been able to cling onto a narrative the way that other chains have and I think like real world assets was really going to be this one I'm interested to see how that's going to develop um but I think we still have some time for that I don't think any institutions are on chain it and those that did come on they went to ethereum like Black Rock launched bid on ethereum and not on a subet so yeah I agree I

think the the things I'm looking for is obviously in terms of catalys for for avac and I transparently don't own any avac right now but like the more I look at I'm like why don't I because they if you believe that like this space is ultimately going to gravitate to or the capital is ultimately going to gravitate to like the best tech stack like they are starting to check all the boxes um and I'd have to imagine that like more serious developers that come in over time are going to want to use avalanche's SDK and they like Ava Cloud that they launched like not too long ago like effectively they're G be able to do like one-click deployments of subnets um so like they're starting to kind of mirror some of the standing up your own dedicated blockchain

environment kind of like rollups Ras providers um and you have that all integrated in the Avalanche stack and there's also value mechanisms for avac through the launch of like subnet only validation um yeah I just think it it's not getting the the attention that I think it deserves in on crypto Twitter at least um there's just a lot of other narratives out there and I I understand why like narratives are hot uh but they like devs are shipping over an avalanche community and I like wouldn't I wouldn't not look over there uh because I think that there's a lot of interesting things that are going on that we should be everyone should be paying attention to all right with that thank you guys so much for listening

I hope you all have a good day thanks cheers [Music]