Robinhood's Crypto Pivot with Vlad Tenev, Co-Founder, CEO

Transcript

welcome to bank lists where we explore the future of internet money and internet finance this is how to get started how to get better how to front run the opportunity this is ryan sean adams i'm here with david hoffman in freaking person yo and we're here to help you become more thankless uh did that from memory david that's right huh nice job uh who do we have on today what are we talking about yeah we had vlad tenno the ceo of robin hood and we of course are doing this at permission list because right before vlad came into our makeshift podcast booth uh he did uh they did a press release for a non-custodial wallet coming out of robin hood so they are calling this robin hood 3 which i thought was robin hood web 3 but it's actually robin hood the third evolution

which vlad goes into in the podcast as well so we try and pick his brains about what some of the features are in the this robin hood 3 app he leaks a little bit you can kind of see a little bit of what's going on there but he mainly keeps things mostly under wrap except for the stuffy leaks yeah at a high level i think it's super exciting that they are going into the self custodial wallet space i i've got to say i didn't expect them to do it so soon yeah right i i anticipated some of the fintechs who've created entire business models on being centralized to uh prefer that model and now here robinhood is going to the self-custody space it effectively encouraging all of their users to get crypto pilled and to go bankless right so that's a step in

and of itself i think there are a lot of details that we'd love to uh learn like what layer twos are going to be supported what other chains how are you actually going to support all of the assets that they mentioned supporting bitcoin litecoin uh ethereum erc20 tokens where do the swaps happen and how do they swap exactly uh our smart contract wallet how are keys restored all of these things and hopefully these questions will be revealed in time but we've kept this conversation surface level uh in high level and i think the big takeaway is robin hood has planted a flag in the ground they are coming to crypto they are investing in it and they're actually doing some bankless things so uh that in itself is is pretty exciting david yeah

and i think this is basically the business model for all banks right like which one of you is going to disrupt yourself first yes uh and robin hood says like all right well we'll do it and like we'll get out of the way uh and so that's kind of the the tl dr i would say is robin hood is going to disrupt themselves first and so that they can actually produce their own product that ultimately comes to disrupt themselves dude i enjoyed doing an in-person podcast you did that was great it was really good david and i on camera at the same time in person interviewing vlad that's what you're in for in this episode we're going to get right to the episode with vlad but before we do we want to thank the sponsors that made this episode possible if you're trying to grow and preserve your crypto wealth

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having me guys and i'm glad uh we're all meeting for the first time so it feels like uh a level playing field you know i almost feel like saying like welcome to crypto as well but i know robin hood has been in crypto uh for a while i guess my first question is when did you guys decide to get super serious about crypto because the things that you're releasing today um are taking you to the next level we'll talk about what you've just announced what you're planning what you're planning the future but when did you fall down the rabbit hole when did robin hood get serious about crypto well let's see um i i've been into crypto for quite a while just personally as as an individual um you know i remember

trying my hand at uh at bitcoin mining back in 2011 with a a cpu and you know seeing uh seeing the first time that bitcoin it wasn't even crypto at that point right it was just bitcoin was declared dead after the mount gox password breach so a lot of people were like oh well that was a fun experiment while it lasted right um no way could it recover from this but then of course you had the first kind of bitcoin summer in 2013 prolonged winter people declared it dead again and then 2017 2018 so i think the

robin hood as a company got into crypto in 2018 so early 2018 when it became clear we started hearing from our customers that hey this is an asset class that we want to have as part of our portfolios we want to invest in it we want to trade it we were looking at kind of the the broader space and seeing an opportunity to do the same thing that we've done for stock trading which is fee compression and obliteration and get more value back in customers pockets so that that's what led us to to launch robinhood crypto back in in early 2018 which was uh i think the the first major commission free

offering for crypto by kind of a an established company so that got us into it and then um i guess you might ask why self-custody why why is that interesting to us because that is what we're announcing right yeah we're we're announcing robin hood 3 which is uh self-custody done the robin hood way so no network fees no commissions really bringing design to the forefront and i think what's interesting about it is you look over the past couple of years you know five years ago self-custody meant getting your treasure or your ledger putting your coins on it and forgetting about it right maybe you take it out

once a year or even less frequently to to move coins around move them to an exchange but the number of rich applications that you can do while maintaining custody and ownership of your keys over the past couple of years that have just sprung up has been uh has been really awesome to see so robin hood obviously we've been watching the space um and i think they're now at the point where they're ready for a broader audience and we we felt like we could build a really really good product here taking our two value propositions of low costs and amazing design and and deliver that to customers

and i'm really really excited for this and then since you've been paying attention to the crypto industry it seems like robin hood has been waiting for its moment to pounce uh and it seems like this is this is the moment so we have a robin hood wallet robin hood three named after web three is that is that the three in robin hood three yeah i think uh web three is a is an obvious allegory i think there's also a reflection of kind of the different stages of robin hood the first stage could be when we offered equities trading and then the second stage when we got into crypto back in 2018 but you know it was a custodial offering we didn't even offer the ability to deposit and withdraw until last year so customers were really happy to to go there and then self-custody the the robin hood way

uh with robin hood 3. so i want to get into the the technical details so how does that how does that work uh what does that that while it looked like how does the user begin to custody their own assets how do they get their private keys out of robin hood and if they are buying assets from robinhood in the app how does that go to the user's wallet while they also maintain their own private key like can you just walk us through this the whole scope of the wallet yeah so i mean i can't share too many of the details just yet because i want to i want to keep it a surprise i want to keep you guys in suspense but i'll tell you some of the principles that we we kind of um brought to the fore when we designed the product i think that the first thing

is we want to make it simple to onboard while keeping best in class security so security privacy very important that's why people are self-custody to begin with but you look at some of the some of the ways to set up a non-custodial wallet you have to you know type in and transcribe the 24 words and it tells you to write them down on a piece of paper we think that we can make that process a lot simpler and a lot more streamlined because that scares almost everyone who does not get into crypt yeah if you're if you're you know a protocol developer it's it's fine you understand what's happening you understand private public key uh cryptography and it is a little bit of a

step forward it's like one step beyond just giving you the private key right and having you record that but i think we could do better the second thing is just the design and the simplicity a lot of these products are built using non-native protocols so they just they feel slow right it's like you're you're either directly loading a web page or loading an interface that's powered by a web framework so we want to make sure it feels really fast and you feel connected to your money and it's tactile and so we're building native we also are introducing a new gesture you might have heard my my co-founder talk about it on stage which we call chromatic feedback um which is

gonna be really really cool and it's it's uh it's gonna yeah it's it's gonna feel very tactile you saw a little hint of it but um i think when you play with the product it'll it'll feel really good for the listeners uh that are that weren't able to watch you yeah the the speak at the talk at permission list can you guy actually go into that with that what that is and now what is chromatic feedback what is that well um basically it's uh it's a response to the touch uh that the interface gives and it's hard for me to describe it uh on audio but you just have to see it to believe it and i think people really really like it so we're talking about like the ios android app has like a unique tactile feedback while

using it that's that's unique exactly cool neat and and then the other thing is um we really don't love the whole web browser thing where you load up a web browser in your non-custodial wallet and you get some web page that you have to you know zoom in and out of so we want to make it really easy not just to swap but also to access d5 protocols and generate yield um all with with native ui so we're gonna we're gonna be building that and we're gonna use multiple high-speed chains um we wanna make sure people have uh people have different ways of getting access to different tokens and and different services so that that's something we're

quite excited about as well okay multiple high speed chains that brings to mind like the fast layer ones and also layer twos as well later twos on ethereum and other chains we're looking at everything yep cool okay haven't haven't domiciled yourself into any one specific chain yet well i mean there's there's lots of chains that we like um but yeah we're we're always open to adding more and i think part of the reason we're excited to be here is you know there's a lot of dapp developers and and other folks that we could talk to and you know we're very happy to have some of them start reaching out already even in the hour or so since the keynote sure what's super cool about this too is i i think you uh you mentioned it earlier but

users want to do more than holds crypto obviously there are all of these other verbs that you can do with crypto and particularly with uh d5 so you want to invest you want to buy you want to hold of course you also want to trade you also want to earn yield all of these different uh you know verbs and i i noticed in your press release you were talking very much not just about the hold use case in your crypto wallet but like generating yields i'm wondering if you talk about that but but also before you do vlad i want to get like the big picture here for robin hood because you've said this is sort of the third phase of robin hood which i think um that's pretty big right i mean like you guys get into equity space that was big getting into crypto it's the second

phase that that was big and i will tell you like uh so this this podcast is called bank list right yeah because we are about like my name's great disrupting the intermediary okay so what we don't want in crypto is to have um crypto turn into something like the traditional banking system where it's less peer-to-peer we have to go through all of these intermediaries so uh while we were very happy in kind of your phase two that you guys were like listing crypto assets yeah we also like kept applying the pressure and wanting wanting robinhood wanting users of robinhood to petition robinhood and say hey get us the withdrawal capability so we can withdraw from the banking system if we want to and take custody our assets yeah and uh to your credit you guys did

that uh earlier i guess last year he started doing that which was phenomenal but this one took me by surprise in like a good way like a way that i'm very excited about because um it strikes me that you are seeing the full vision of crypto which is more than just creating a fintech overlay on top of this ledger blockchain infrastructure but also providing like peer-to-peer or you know individual to protocol types of interfaces like doing the self-custody thing i think is a big step and uh you guys should be commended for that but i'm wondering why what's the thought process here do you see uh this is where the industry is going do you see this as maximally beneficial

to your your users is there some kind of profit motive what why are you doing this yeah i guess there's two questions right there's the why and then there's kind of why now so in terms of the why if you look at why robin hood has been able to do what we do it's it's because there's there's sort of two things that we've been able to to accomplish because we hold them very very dear one is um using technology to actually eliminate middlemen and costs from from the system pass back that value to customers in the form of lower fees and no commissions and the other is create design that's accessible and

makes it very very easy for a customer um and not just kind of a d5 believer but a customer that maybe is curious but hasn't hasn't gone down the rabbit hole right yeah like not a crypto native yeah not a crypto native so so we want to make sure that um our interfaces are um are obviously useful and people who are believers love them but but also normies do as well so what what did what did stock trading how do you how do you look at that in the context of stock trading right well 20 years ago it used to be that to place a stock trade um you had to go to a physical

broker and you know your trade would be beamed down to the floor of the new york stock exchange and you had these people with like these ipads before there were ipads actually actually making the trades happen that's why there was a cost to it because there was an actual human being um in the in the middle of the transaction and you know between 20 and 10 years ago that all went away so if you go to the new york stock exchange now it's like a media place right maybe there's some people trading but most of the time it's just cnbc and some of the networks doing interviews because it's it's a museum all of the action is happening in servers um on the other on the other side of the the hudson river so that part

that's an example of something very very manual that was replaced by software and people um people benefited from it right um in the form of lower costs now i think what's what's got us particularly interested about crypto and d5 is that you're seeing that go down the stack so i think you've heard us say a few times that crypto is not just another asset class but it's really almost like an entirely new operating system for uh for financial services so you know we've done some stuff with stock trading um that replaces a lot of the things in the front of the

house with software now crypto you're starting to see the back of the house the sort of underbelly of the financial system being replaced by blockchains and protocols and i think what's really interesting you put these two things together the end to end chain the entire product experience could potentially be replaced by software and that's an immense opportunity to pass back not just security and privacy but more value back into the the hands of consumers so i think that's why we're interested in it it goes to the heart of the genesis of robin hood which is using technology to make financial services low cost and applying design to make them

ridiculously easy to use and simple for customers you know we actually have a term for what you just described we're talking about the front of the house in the back of the house we call it the defy mullet thesis right and the idea is it's going to be like fintech on the front for user acquisition smoothing the rough edges making self-custodial wallets not custodial wallets amazing that's going to be d5 in the back and so our thesis has been and we saw this starting to happen a couple of years ago that uh more and more fintech companies would essentially grow out their d5 mullets right begin to start swapping out the old banking infrastructure for like crypto ledger based systems and uh it's so cool to see robin hood taking a giant leap into that space so well done um i guess the other

follow-up question is so what sort of things will users be able to do with that non-custodial wallet beside besides the whole so we were just alluding to it like yield like defy what what other things can we do inside this well so there's a couple of things that we know customers love and want from from talking to them so swapping and trading is a big part of it to be able to actually place trades without giving up control over over your keys so that's what we start with obviously robinhood is known as a place where people can invest in trade and we want to we want to bring that to self-custody with robin hood 3.

and just to be clear that means integrations with the chains that the app that the wallet talks to and using the defy swap features and swap applications on those chains or is that something that that robin hood itself will be also facilitating as well well how does the swap actually happen i think the the details under the hood again i think will will probably reveal more as as uh we get closer to the product delivery but from a from a customer's standpoint it's just you software and uh and the blockchain and the goal will be to actually make it so that you're all in cost of swapping is competitive if not significantly better than the

most competitive centralized exchanges so typically you know when you're trading on these dexes you see um you know high gas fees uh sometimes low liquidity it's unclear exactly what the exchange rate that you're swapping is so we see lots of problems that that we can help solve there ave is the leading decentralized liquidity protocol and now ave v3 is here ave v3 has powerful new features to enable you to get the most out of d5 including isolation mode which allows for many more markets to be launched with more exotic collateral types and also efficiency mode which allows for higher loan to value ratios and of course portals allowing users to port their ave position across all of the networks that ave operates on like polygon phantom

avalanche arbitrary optimism and harmony the beautiful thing about ave is that it's completely open source decentralized and governed by its community enabling a truly bankless future for us all to get your first crypto collateralized loan get started at ave dot com that's aabe.com and also check out the ave protocol governance forums to see what more than a hundred thousand dow members are all robbing about at governance.ave dot com living a bankless life requires taking control over your own private keys and that's why so many in the bank list nation already have their ledger hardware wallet and brand new to the ledger lineup of hardware wallets is the ledger nano s plus a huge upgrade to the world's most popular hardware wallet with more memory and a larger screen the nano s plus makes it easy to navigate

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arbitrary with many moving over every day go to bridge.arbitrum.io now to start bridging over your eth and other tokens in order to experience defy nfts in the way it was always meant to be fast cheap secure and friction free one of the other questions i have is how user and customer funds will actually end up in the wallet so how does it interface with the current robinhood app and if users want to get their bitcoin their ether their tokens into their non-custodial wallet is there like a fiat on-ramp that is built by robinhood right in there well i think the the really interesting thing about um robin hood crypto inside the main robin hood app is that it is a great on-ramp for crypto right you can

you can bring in your fiat currency your dollars you can buy and sell crypto um and we offer uh an increasing number of coins we just added some new ones a couple weeks ago actually and with with the custodial wallets that we launched a few months ago you can actually deposit and withdraw and take them directly onto the chain so certainly that gives us the ability to drive an integration from robinhood and use that as as a key on-ramp okay vlad are you worried at all about uh this offering cannibalizing your existing business and so um i mean there are multiple ways to see it i mean obviously you're not or you're weighing the risk and you're saying hey the

rewards are worth more than risk i'm wondering if you could weigh in on this but uh it sort of reminds me of the the you know the apple play in the in the 2000 era where you had the ipod an uber successful product right like incredible and then uh steve jobs goes and turns that ipod into an app on on a phone makes music basically an app and the question is like well is that going to cannibalize all of the ipod sales and he was like yeah but we'll more than make up for it on our sales of iphones and in the app store is that what you're seeing here or do you think that there could be you know some threat to your existing business model uh for because you're getting into defy and

margins get compressed is there any threat of cannibalization what do you think about this i think uh it's always best to cannibalize yourself right and we don't really even think about it that way we think about rolling out the best products and you know the monetization and the revenue will uh will take care of itself if this is so uh if this becomes you know the dominant way that customers access web 3 and it's drawing people away from robinhood i think i think that's a great scenario not just for the ecosystem but also for robin hood as well can we take a peek behind what's going on with robin hood's like own resources like are you guys getting into this like five percent of your guys's time and energy 25 of your

time and energy like how serious is robin hood about this whole uh d5 crypto campaign yeah we've been we've been growing our crypto team in general uh quite heavily um started out as a very small very small lean team and you know we've we've been putting a lot of resources to bear on this but i i would say you know we don't really look at it in terms of of head count i think especially when you're starting when you're starting something new a smaller team can move really really fast and iterate in a way that sometimes even larger teams that are resourced can't so um we're excited that it's a it's a new app

it allows us to kind of reimagine and learn from uh learn from things we've done with the first robin hood and we think it'll actually um there's probably things that we'll learn with robin hood three that eventually we'll be talking about back porting so there's always like a big difference between how crypto natives see the products that they use and design their products that they use versus people that aren't as familiar with with crypto so like what's the uh the robin hood culture when it comes to like crypto native builders on the robin hood side of things do you have a lot of crypto natives at robin hood we do we have lots of crypto natives but when we we have a big culture of talking to customers and putting the prototypes of what we build in front of them and getting their

feedback and we make it a point to not just talk to crypto native uh people but actually to people that are curious and you know normies as you put it and we want to make sure it it works for them also and i'm sure along the process as this app gets rich and the ecosystem around this app gets built out you take robinhood normies to robinhood crypto natives uh can you is there any sort of insight or illustration as to uh the demand for this product out of robin hood users is there anything like any customer feedback they say it's like oh they really want this this kind of product well you you see it certainly in uh some of the commentary about robin hood like uh people were

requesting wallets in general and access to their coins and we heard that loud and clear throughout the past year and now um i think i think this release will probably surprise a lot of people if it surprised you guys i'm sure that not a lot of people thought that robin hood would go and embrace self-custody the way we have today but i think it makes a lot of sense it's the the future of uh i think the future of web 3 relies on this and we can really build something awesome that allows people to keep custody and and be their own bank you know to the

to the tune of why you named your podcast i think that's a very very powerful vision and especially with what's happening around the world you see um you see it it's never been as important to to have that security and privacy as it is right now what are a robin hood users like so first of all how many users are on the platform now it's like 25 million ish something like i think the last the last number we reported was around 22.8 million funded accounts okay wow okay and how many of these are dabbling with crypto own crypto assets um have their own private keys maybe have a separate self-custody wallet have you guys done any studies on this what we're trying to understand is how many of the user base will be kind of net new

this is their first crypto experience uh and what the interest level is quite a few crypto first-time crypto buyers use robinhood um we have a combination of both we have people that use that are very deep into it and use robinhood as a cheap and convenient off-ramp and on-ramp and then they they move it elsewhere to generate yield or to to engage in to use dapps um and we also have people that just want exposure to it and like having it alongside their stocks and are sort of thinking about it as portfolio diversification into a different asset and i think um what we'd like to do is

is better serve both kinds of customers so if you just want to use us as an on-ramp and off-ramp we'd like to we would like to to serve you further down the line and give you all the other tools that you're going outside of robinhood to use as well if you want to use us as a way to uh just diversify your portfolio that that's something that we offer and obviously with our centralized offering we we can make it a great experience to keep your coins in the same app as as your equities and other securities as well so vlad as we uh we think about wrapping this up in closing uh i know we've all got places to be it's very busy at permissionless of course i i'm wondering

if you could give the case to sort of two groups of people right so of course there's the crypto natives who listen to bankless all of the time and they're probably excited about this but also at the same time you know may be skeptical right because robin hood is coming from uh more the fintech side of things and then there's also your existing users right who are a little worried about crypto potentially like opening a metamask wallet there's a lot of rough edges the 24 words you have to like first can you make the case to your users the robinhood you know normies let's call them the people who are into into fintech buying equities buying krypton exchange why should they go in the direction of a self cussy wallet why is this robin hood 3 application for them

yeah i think that if you are and it's not necessarily gonna fill the needs for 100 of our customers right there's customers that um are probably very happy just buying bitcoin or the main coins and keeping them alongside their uh their securities and we think that's fine we don't if if you don't want to self-custody um we're not we're not necessarily going to want to force you to do that but there are a lot of people that are attracted by getting access to more coins they're attracted by uh by these daps and generating yield especially in this high inflation environment and we want to offer a

solution to them and i think the the value prop if you're a customer of robinhood is you get the same simple design and the low fees that you're accustomed to with tradfy products like robinhood and and will import that and make the experience absolutely seamless now if you're a non-robin hood user the same value prop resonates with you right you're used to the swapping experience where the exchange rate's not clear you're paying high gas fees it's hard to work with multiple chains um sometimes you send crypto to the wrong places and lose access to it and that really sucks so robinhood can actually take a lot of the

problems that you run into with the non-custodial wallets that you're already using and make them make them go away so what's next vlad this this product as i understand is in sort of a beta type season we'll be starting the beta and rolling it out to the first customers in the coming months so later this summer and then the goal is to get it in everyone's hands uh later this year amazing and more announcements to come it sounds like so it seems like you were teasing some things in in this uh in this episode that are to come so i'm sure many more features to be added like when when does when does the project go ga and become complete are there as a certain amount of features you want we'll be rolling it out to everyone later this year of course um

it's software so by its nature it's we're gonna continue to add stuff once we get to ga but uh the goal is to get it in everyone's hands get it in the first people's hands over the next few months and in everyone's hands by the end of the year oh thanks a lot bankless listeners uh this has been fantastic it's 2022. i can't believe i'm saying this but robin hood is helping us on board the world helping the world go a bit more bankless it's great to have you guys here vlad thanks so much for spending some time with us thank you gentlemen i appreciate you yeah appreciate the time hey we hope you enjoyed the video if you did head over to bankless hq right now to develop your crypto investing skills and learn how to

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