Phantom Chooses Hyperliquid for Perps | 0xResearch

Transcript

All right. Welcome, welcome back to another live 0x research. Um happy to have everyone on today. We've got I think an exciting app uh just based on a lot of news coming out this week. Um Dan Smith and Yacoub Arshana Devins joining from Blockworks data Blockworks research, but uh we've got some folks from Phantom, Brandon, CEO and co-founder, and then Femi uh product lead uh for trading at Phantom. So, uh excited to have you guys on and uh from the Blockworks crew, excited to have you guys on to uh chat with these guys and talk about um the big news, I guess, for Phantom, for hype, for perps. Um a lot of stuff going on, but maybe just to to preface the conversation a little bit.

Obviously, Phantom, you guys rolled out uh perps a perps product um in the Phantom wallet, Phantom app um just this week and to a pretty positive response, it seems. Like there's some excitement there. Um and I think this this kind of follows some other like we've seen uh Axium is maybe another big one where they've, you know, merged like Solana meme trading with uh hyper liquid perps. Um you guys have been another another big name here to sort of go this route. How is it feel like this week? How's the response been? Like have you seen a good amount of usage on the product so far just in these past few days?

>> Yeah, totally. Well, yeah, first of all, thanks for having us on, guys. Uh yeah, definitely been an super exciting week for multiple reasons. Uh obviously, perps launched, but uh at the same time, Bitcoin all-time highs, uh you know, market uh obviously responding really very well to the launch. Um so, yeah, in general, perps launch has been great. We're still rolling it out. Um that's something that we do pretty often when we when we uh unveil a new product like this um is kind of slow roll the launch, get some data to understand how it's being used, and just making sure it's as safe as possible. Um so, yeah, right now we're still in the middle of rolling out, but uh definitely seeing some

pretty good results so far. I think close to 70 million dollars in total volume, mostly over the past 24 hours as we're kind of accelerating the ramp. Um but yeah, um family anything you you want to ask? >> No, no, that's all good. It's been pretty exciting to to launch this feature. We've been working on it for a while kicking it up and yeah, the community response has been awesome and honestly we didn't expect it. Like you know, we're we're very we're very you know, precious about the features that we build and you know, we we put a lot of time and effort into it, but the community response for this particular launch has been insane.

Um so yeah, excited to see. >> Yeah, you can feel that the the viewpoint you mentioned they're being precious taking your time. You can feel that come through on the UX. It's a super clean. Talk to us a bit about how you thought about what the design should look like, how the user experience should work. Perps traders are a fickle bunch. So I'm just curious to get your perspective of you know, like how you got inside of their heads and and try to deliver a product that was really exciting for them. >> Yeah, so fortunately I found some like we we have uh a good user research arm. We have a lot of you know, perps traders in the house and people are you know, interested in the space. We wanted to come at it from the perspective of like how can we you know

perps platforms have notoriously been a bit complex and a lot of troubles and a lot of things that you can do. How can we strip down like the interface to like the core essence and what what people actually want to get out which is like going long, going short, depositing funds into that um into that platform. And yeah, we we definitely took some some design some serious design decisions on like how how we wanted things to go. I I guess what what are you curious about? Like are you curious about um specific design decisions that we took or um like how we went about the process itself?

>> Uh a little bit of both, but I think more so focused around like the actual design decisions, right? Uh you know, Robinhood recently had their um uh conference uh or sorry, they're they're unveiling their purpose products coming to the US as well. And uh even as they were going through their demo, they were very excited about like their slider features and how you apply leverage and what your stop stop loss setting will look like. Um so yeah, just kind of curious from your your perspective because uh as someone who's lucky enough to have been on the initial rollout, it does uh it's it's very smooth. So, yeah, just curious how you kind of got to that endpoint. >> Yeah. Um that makes sense. So, I guess from like the onboarding perspective, like we wanted to make sure that it was, you know, very simple. Like, you could

go from um like uh just a dollar amount depositing assets into the platform. Uh if you look at, you know, perhaps platforms of today, it's like there's a lot of, you know, bridging, you know, bridge my funds to this place, do that transfer. We kind of abstracted a lot of that stuff away to make it uh much simpler. I think the other side of it that's very important is the education piece. So, like, you know, onboarding, um understanding, um getting guiding the user through the process of uh this is what purpose is, this is how you long, this is what liquidation is.

So, that they have the best experience. And and the last piece of that as well is around risk management. So, something that came on in in in research was that, you know, people have, you know, different varying levels of risk. And we kind of let people self-select into that. And with that, you know, am I someone who likes to take a lot of risk? Am I not someone who likes to take medium risk or low risk? And with that, we kind of like set defaults around the leverage, you know, whether, you know, there's going to be a stop loss or take profit. These These are the kinds of things that we wanted to focus on from like that onboarding education experience to to make sure that people um were having a good time.

And then on the actual like interface itself, um, like opening an order, closing an order, we wanted to make that as few touches as possible. Uh, one thing that I guess people kind of ran into, uh, with issues was like understanding take profit and stop losses and like, you know, that risk management around the position. And we wanted to simplify the language, we called it auto close. Um, we feel like it's much more intuitive, um, and you know, people can just set their percentages and opt into that that risk management when they're opening that position. So, th- those are a few things that we we've done, um, but yeah, happy to answer it and tell you more questions about that.

>> Yeah, maybe just to add a little bit more color, um, and context to what what Femi was saying. In general, we basically recognized a pretty big hole in the market for a really simple, retail-friendly mobile-first perps experience. Uh, and like Femi was saying, like perps is typically I think the people's initial reaction when they hear perps is advanced trading, candlestick charts, um, a lot of multipliers and percentages, and it it's pretty scary and and it's not that you know, it's not that enticing. Um, but for folks who have tried perps, you realize that actually it's it's actually

a lot simpler than options trading or any other types of derivative trading. Lot simpler, lot easier to understand, therefore, I think can actually be a really good fit for retail traders, um, especially folks who like to trade meme coins and things like that. Um, so yeah, our goal with the project was really to kind of open up that part of the market, um, and uh, actually bring some new folks in. So. >> Yeah, makes sense. I think that jives pretty well with the the mobile versus desktop, uh uh, gap as well, right? Like when I if I'm on a desktop, I want like I want the candles, I want all the full experience, I want the advanced mode as much as possible. But when I'm on mobile, it's like

I I I don't even know why this is, but like the the the the marginal click is the most painful thing in the world to me. Uh so yeah, I I totally agree with your view there. >> I guess I'll ask something. I'm interested um you know, I think Phantom now I mean, you guys have become one of the stronger brand names in crypto, I would say. You know, making a bet on, you know, Solana maybe a few years ago kind of it would worked out in your favor and now you've expanded from there, you know, other ecosystems, other products like built in to other features, other products built into the product. Um you know, perps being another one along those lines. And I And I feel like the simplicity and ease that you've been able to

incorporate a lot of like bridging, swapping across chains, like some of these things. I don't know how previous wallet generations or iterations have like really struggled to give the user a very clean and like smooth experience. Uh and I think you guys have done a pretty good job of that and one of the thesis that we have at Blockworks has been like this multi-product DeFi approach being something of a winner. Like we see this within Solana especially, right? Like the Jupiter team, like they're acquiring all over the place, they're building all these products. You know, Camino getting into swap products alongside their lending markets. Um obviously, this is like another addition for you guys getting into perps. Are there other things that are like kind of immediately

top of mind that you're thinking about, you know, as like next steps for you? >> Um yeah, I Oh actually Brandon. >> You you can go first, Brandon. >> Um yeah, I mean just thinking about it from a trading perspective like my remit or like I feel like people should be able to trade, you know, any type of, you know, asset and speculate on any type of thing. Um that's possible and I think um more and more so, you know, a lot of these things are being built on crypto crypto rails. Um so, in terms of like new things that are coming up, we've we've all seen the work around, you know, prediction markets that are are quite interesting. Uh we've seen new new

forays into tokenization of, you know, traditional types of assets um around real world assets, you know, tokenized stocks and, you know, this type of stuff. Uh lending's also interesting. But, I guess we we kind of just take the approach of like it's it's very much a user-centric approach of like figuring out what what our users want and what our users are are looking for. Um I guess from the trading perspective, I'll let Brandon talk more about like a I guess the holistic view. Um but, from a trading perspective, yeah, we want people to be able to trade any asset and speculate on on any asset and, you know, benefit from this interoperability um that, you know, these crypto rails kind of provide.

Uh but, Brandon, I'm curious if you have like a more general wider uh view. >> Yeah, no. I mean, I think, um you know, in general, our mission is to accelerate the adoption of crypto by making it safe and easy to use. And so, we really try to focus on that uh like Femi said, user-first, user-centric mindset and sort of usability. Um I focus on the usability aspects. Um and so, basically, yeah, we are as sort of the DeFi ecosystems become more robust and the underlying infrastructure is becoming more and more sophisticated, our job is basically to take all of the common verbs that people like to do and and kind of boil them down to their simplest and easiest form and safest

form for for folks to to understand and use. So, yeah, I think you would you should expect more verbs to get incorporated as first class citizens in in Phantom, but I'd say not because because crypto as a whole is is is absorbing all sorts of use use cases, not just trading and speculation, but also payments, especially peer-to-peer payments, consumer and merchant payments, things like that. I think you should expect you know, Phantom to incorporate all of those types of things as well over time. >> Yeah, I love that. I think looking back at some of the pro like it seems like the strategy has maybe been somewhat different from other, you know,

competitors in the marketplace where you guys seem to be more consistent about like integrating, you know, strong, you know, app partners basically to maybe build out some of these things, right? I think, you know, the bridging app, it's like you use multiple providers and routers there. Um partnering with maybe like OKX for some of the swapping um back end, and then here in this case with perps like using Hyperliquid as the back end maybe to start. I guess can you guys speak to that a little bit? Is this just like it just makes more sense, you know, go after whoever's making the best product and and, you know, combine that with, you know, our our UI and make that great for the consumer or how does that decision making look here?

>> Mhm. Well, I'd say it's it's very uh I'd say pragmatic uh decision making in terms of um you know, because we are the wallet and we we sit closest to the end user, we have a lot of freedom in what we can integrate and and aggregate. Um and so often times it's easiest to go uh when we're we're kind of un um putting one of these new products out there, it's often easiest for us to pick one very strong partner in the beginning, uh prove out um the feature, gather data, understand that this is something that like uh people like use, sort of challenge our initial thesis, polish things up, and then it's uh and

then we can make a decision to invest more, aggregate other sources. So, that's kind of something that we've done with the the Swapper is um you know, initially only integrated uh Jupiter uh aggregator, and then eventually, obviously, as the Swapper has shown more and more usage, uh and we want to deliver the best prices and liquidity to end users. Um uh other types of aggregators, OKX like you mentioned, um DFlow, and all these other guys. And that's actually that's honestly us harnessing the power of crypto as an open permissionless ecosystem. There's all these teams trying all sorts of novel approaches in different areas,

um and why why shouldn't we package that up and and give it to the user in the in the best way possible. So, that's kind of Anyway, that's a little bit about I guess how how we how we may progress through these different types of features. Um but yeah, obviously, Hyperliquid um has been tearing it up lately in the in the decentralized perps landscape, and there there really is no second best uh in my mind compared to them. Um at least in the in the on-chain realm. >> I guess like on the topic of uh distributing access to like perps and permissionless assets to the majority of users, I would like to ask something about uh HIB3, which is going to be the

permissionless perp market listing system. But maybe I can give like a quick overview to the guys from watching from Solana who might not understand exactly how Hyperliquid works. So, at Blockworks, we kind of have a framework for Hyperliquid that it has three pillars. The first pillar is the Hypercore order books. That's created on the Hypercore L1 that was created by the team. And this is we see all the foundationless in markets using that, right? So, it's a highly performant order book model, but unlike a normal perp decks, this isn't the end state of Hyperliquid. They want to be the infrastructure layer of perpetual markets. So, they added two things on top of that, which we've seen recently with HIP-3 and builder codes. So, we

kind of see the first layer on top of the Hypercore order books as the coordination layer that distributes these markets via auctions. So, any deployer with 1 mil hype stake requirement can list in a Dutch auction for their market, and they're going to get one slot where they can choose the asset, they can choose the oracle, and margin requirements. And if they win that, they can list it, and they can add their own feed tier onto that like taking max 50% of that. And then, that's going to be around 280 markets listed once it's on mainnet. It's once every 32 hours. And then, kind of on top of that, we see we feel like Hyper listing Hyperliquid does want to move to a more decentralized structure, and that also includes a

front end. So, what they have, we see the consumer layer, and that's the builder code. So, any application, and this is what Phantom is doing that routes trades through their front end, can add their own builder code, which for that they can take maximum 10 basis points per trade. I think Phantom is doing five. So, that's kind of how all of this is connected. So, I guess my question is like looking forward when we see like HIP-3 coming to coming to mainnet, and we see a huge amount of markets being listed, is that something that Phantom is going to allow to be integrated, or are you going to go more conservative and only list perps that are deployed by the foundation?

>> Um well, yeah, just a comment on HIP-3, and just tie it back to something I said earlier. I think HIP-3 is a perfect illustration of the power of open permissionless networks, right? A player like Coinbase or Robinhood perps is never going to be able to replicate that type of system, right? And that kind of and harness that kind of community energy to bring these new markets, and that's that's basically exactly why they were unable to really capture, you know, the meme coin and launchpad meta of 2024 and 2025, and they're they're all sort of scrambling to do um their own chains.

Um but uh yeah, in general, I think we, you know, we want to be able to provide as broad access to as many assets and markets as possible. Um it's hard to say uh exactly what those markets like are going to be. So, I think there is probably going to be some amount of curation um from our side in the beginning. Um but uh I think in an ideal world, Phantom is sort of your browser to the to hyperliquid, and you'll be able to access any of these things as they as they pop up.

>> Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. Like And there's another aspect of that, the 1 mil hype stake security requirement. And I think a lot of people were curious first why it's so high. It seemed almost like a barrier to entry. But I think the reason that that's high is very important because it allows front ends to trustlessly list these markets because you know that they're actually backed by this hype stake that can be slashed if the deployer decides to list any malicious markets. So, very interesting. >> Yeah, pretty smart. Sorry, Femi. And then also yeah, I feel like it also sort of yeah, inherently rate limits uh everything that's coming out and allows folks to kind of get a handle on it. Um But yeah, Femi, go ahead.

>> Yeah, no one no one wants to be slashed, I guess. At today's price, $45 million worth of of tokens. So, definitely aligns incentives towards, you know, creating quality assets that, you know, have a oracles and and are in a good are in a good spot. Um, but yeah, I'm pretty pretty bullish on HIP-3. It reminds me of, you know, the the place that Uniswap and, you know, these other liquidity providers have where you could permissionlessly list people and individuals can permissionlessly list markets. Um, I think just to add to Brandon's point, you know, that's something that, you know, other traditional players, you know, they haven't really been able to

leverage or benefit from in this past, uh, you know, few years. Um, and then Phantom has been able to take advantage of. So, I'm pretty excited about that. And then also, just a shout-out to the Unit team, which I think are kind of also working on some interesting, um, you know, new types of markets, uh, you know, powered by HIP-3, uh, which should be which would be interesting. And yeah, kind of just speaks to the point of broader access to, you know, more innovative type innovative types of assets. Um, which is pretty exciting to us.

>> I think maybe slightly slightly separate from uh, the line Jacob's going down, but um, it in relation to the maybe Hyperliquid ecosystem, you know, you guys within Solana, for example, you know, you have you can stake SOL with Phantom. Um, you can do things on chain. Obviously, the the Hyper EVM it's a little bit of a fledgling ecosystem still, but uh, it seems like they're they're making some efforts to kind of connect that base perps kind of exchange layer to their sort of broader DeFi ecosystem now and we're they're seeing some growth there. And obviously, the Hyperliquid community, the, you know, the lovers of this token are very excited about that one. So, I don't know, any any thoughts, ideas there on, uh, you know, there's no chain, uh, added yet to to Phantom to natively

interact on Hyper EVM, but with this add, like, are there more synergies coming in the future potentially? >> Yeah, I'd say um, no concrete plans yet. It's definitely something that we're looking at and evaluating. You know, we're coming fresh off of the Perp's Hypercore, you know, direct integration and there's still actually a lot left to be done there. So, that's going to be where our focus is. I'd say broadly in terms of integrating new chains, it's something that we don't take lightly and it's something that we once we've committed to integrating a new chain, it's something that we go all in on.

And that's something that's a little bit of a different approach than other wallets and other products in general where they try to just provide as much mass access to random EVMs as possible but we found I found that as as a user that really you know, it's really acts to the detriment long-term of like the usability of these of these things and also prevents prevents you from as a product to go all in and go deep on on ecosystems, right? Like one of our huge advantages with being Solana first was to really take advantage of all of the cool new stuff happening on Solana, Solana Pay, Solana Mobile, all those types of

things. And so, if we are going to get do a Hyper EVM integration, it's something that you you would expect us to go all in on once we do it. Not really have like one foot in. So, that's general thoughts about it. >> One thing you mentioned earlier was around how, you know, historically the wallet has been this the user interface into the chain, right? So, people always talk about where in the stack the product you're building is and the the wallet has largely sat directly at the top of that. One trend that's fairly interesting we've seen recently is the idea of embedded embedded wallets where the app kind of like serves as the wallet as well. I'm curious broadly what you think about that trend and then when you look out going forward, how do you think wallets will shift into the future?

And like, you know, historically it's just been like this browser embedded, but want to want to kind of get your take on on how the user interface for the actual wallet itself will shift going forward from here. >> Um, well, yeah, I think there's a couple interesting things going on with the embedded wallet trend. One, I think one big drawback of the embedded wallet trend is that it it certainly makes it easier for folks to onboard that very initial first time when they're kind of hearing about crypto for the first time, hearing about new app.

They download it, they're able to onboard very quickly and get in, and that's great. But once once they start to become a more advanced crypto user, they want to start exploring other chains, other app like other apps, uh other types of assets, it then becomes very difficult for them to actually move around um and and do that exploration unless they are kind of using a wallet that provides broader access and access more of a home base. Um and so, yeah, I think in in the future, you might see you know, a wallet system that combines the best of both worlds.

Um but I do think that embedded wallets current in their current form kind of break down some of the open permissionless, you know, value props that we're talking about before and sort of the composability aspect of things. Um so, I think we have a long way to go to kind of see what what the final form of all this stuff is going to be. Um but I do think that one sort of underpinning trend for all of this is sort of the rise of crypto on mobile specifically. Um and what's underpinning that trend is honestly is is the rise of Solana and faster and cheaper blockchains. So, once you got faster and cheaper, more predictable infrastructure, that made it

a lot easier for people to build apps on mobile. And then on mobile, obviously we know from a decade of web 2 that people prefer to use native mobile experiences and not, you know, have to mess with the browser in the app. So, I think as you see crypto go more and more mobile, you will see experiences go more and more native as well. And then you will see the wallets of the future adopt that and take a more native uh direct integration approach like we did with Perp's. Um Fam, let me know if you have anything to add there.

>> That was That was perfect. That was excellent Brandon. >> Is the uh sorry, I should know this, but is the Perp's offering only available on mobile? >> Is that Yeah, it's actually only on mobile. >> Okay, very interesting. >> That was intentional as well. Um we we wanted to see if we could, you know, build a like a compelling uh mobile experience uh and again, a a big thing that we've understood from our users is that they value, you know, this kind of mobile convenience. You're not always on the computer. You're not always, you know, locked into that terminal.

Um most of the time you're you're somewhere else. So, being able to conveniently and, you know, in a nice uh user-friendly way uh to be able to go long or go short, take uh actions on, you know, the market um is is a very powerful thing. And that's why we went for mobile first. >> Yeah, that makes sense. It's It's like once you click that Perp's button, it feels like you're just in a Perp's app, right? And versus in the in contrast to that, right? You're in the mobile wallet on the web browser, um if I click the Perp's button, like I'm still in my web browser or in the the browser extension, rather.

Um I I I don't know if you can share any like rough numbers here, but I'm curious what percentage of your users are either like dual uh dual use between the extension and mobile versus just like mobile first and like they don't even bother with the extension. >> Um that's a good question. I don't I don't have the the overlap numbers off the top of my head, but I will say that mobile is definitely Well, I actually I'm not actually even sure if it's a majority of the usage, but it's definitely the fastest growing and um you know, most active contingent of user base for sure.

>> I think that this is a great thing to highlight and this is actually something that we've been um discussing quite a lot frequently is this it feels like we're at something of Well, maybe we've been at this transition point for a few years now, but um a lot of the kind of older and and still many products today within crypto it's like they're you know, you build the the desktop friendly, you know, terminal style application um and that seems to resonate quite well with like the prosumers of today, like the very heavy users, the guys doing, you know, a lot of volume in crypto terms, like, you know, on on a trading application for example. Um but more and more like as we get you know, more users on boarded it it seems

like the speed and convenience of just like having the thing in your pocket and it being native um it is turning into an advantage when it's done well. Um but I I do I do find this interesting like we see different teams take different strategies here, right? Like I'll just point out Axiom again because they have a similar perp integration, but they do not have a a native mobile app and I do find myself kind of cursing them a little bit of like, yeah, the desktop experience is great, but like I wish I could take this with with me native on the go on mobile. Um so I I think it's great that that you guys are are thinking along those lines as well.

>> Yeah, it's a it's it's a very hard thing to get both things right. Um from many different aspects, not not just a product uh aspect, but also from technical, you know, aspect and and all of that. So, it makes a lot of sense where small teams, fast and nimble, they choose one specific area where they're trying to play to win and then go really hard there. Um but yeah, as the space gets more mature, I think you will see folks, especially the big dogs, go kind of try to go for multiple verticals, but uh interestingly, I think you've seen like, for example, Robinhood um in the TradFi world go all the way all in on mobile first, very

retail-friendly, all the way to IPO, right? So, it's it's uh that's certainly, you know, I think we we just have to make sure we're not thinking too small as a as an industry cuz there's there's still a lot of people out there who have never even touched crypto in their lives, so. >> Yeah, and that's a great point because they've actually they've gone in the reverse direction lately, right? They've been rolling out there their desktop product because they've been mobile mobile-only for so long. >> Totally. Yeah, mhm. >> So, an interesting contra. Awesome. Well, uh Dan, Shanda, if you guys have any other questions. If not, I'll I'll give you guys the floor. Oh yeah, go ahead.

>> I guess I've one question, and again, I'm like sorry if I'm going too deep, but I'm a hyperliquid bull, I feel like I have to I have to ask this. And again, kind of just to contextualize with these three layers, we see that I think hyperliquid is really emphasizing a symbiotic relationship between themselves and everyone who integrates with the platform, right? We see it with them the coordination layer, and we also see it with the consumer layer, the front ends with builder codes. Uh something I think is important to notice the fee structure of how hyperliquid works. So, they have fee tiers and fee tier discounts based on your hyperliquid staking tier that goes up to like 40% discount. But uh according to the docs, if you as a builder have a higher tier than the user

who's trading with your code, the user pays their their tier, but it gets executed at the builders fee tier and they keep 100% of the up to 100% of the difference. So, my question kind of is is there a future where you go all in as you said and maybe get a high position to fully integrate into the ecosystem and to benefit from these uh economic choices. >> Femi? >> Yeah, yeah. >> Um we've we've definitely taken a look at this.

Um I I remember looking at the docs and seeing the the staking referral program and I was like, you know, the I the eyes lit up. Um but um from my understanding it's not uh on mainnet or it's not on um on testnet on mainnet yet. They haven't announced it, but hopefully it's coming soon. Um I think we're we're we're in a position I feel like, you know, being able to take a position on that and, you know, potentially uh reduce fees or, you know, have have a a wider margin is is something that, you know, we could we could definitely consider. Uh but no no action has been taken on that yet and I think we're still kind of waiting for the Hyperliquid team

uh to kind of, you know, figure out when when that staking referral program's going to be available. Uh but definitely exciting. I I'm kind of very it seems like the Hyperliquid team in general are, you know, thinking about the right things, thinking about incentives the right way. Um so, I I'm definitely bullish on on on the the various initiatives that they've had uh to make sure that, you know, builders um are are in a better spot. Uh but Brandon, yeah, any any extra thoughts on that? >> Um yeah, like Femi said, it's still it's still pretty early in that like the system is still much more theoretical.

Um but definitely something that we're keeping an eye on and I'd say in general it definitely fits our MO of like going very deep and hard on ecosystem to do something like that as well as something that's good for users. So, um you know, I think you should expect us to probably do something in that area. >> Yeah, and just a a general shout out for builder codes in the in general cuz I think when we were evaluating one of the different types of, you know, uh you know, perhaps venues and looking around, like I think only the time that Hyperliquid had the a specific system for being able to allow builders to to monetize or

integrators to monetize. The other platforms at the time didn't didn't seem like they had that. And I think um only recently like dYdX allowed that announced native ability to kind of like capture these, you know, builder fees. Um so, the the Hyperliquid team definitely been thinking about, you know, this piece around the front ends and and how they play into the ecosystem uh much earlier than than other players, which was interesting to see. >> Yeah, I mean it's incredible how much adoption they've got with such a small team and so much of it comes down to these economic decisions and focusing value accrual to their token and aligning incentive for all key layers.

Um and also just to go back to the the thing about seeing referral fees, there is also an option to make it to share the discount with the users. It doesn't all have to go I said the example that you take 100% of revenue, but up to 50% can be shared. So, that's also a very interesting angle there. >> Awesome. Well, uh it was a pleasure to have you guys on talk about this this new rollout. I'll roll out the red carpet for you guys if you got any last words last shout outs for Phantom, what you guys are doing, but otherwise appreciate you coming out today.

>> Yeah, thanks so much. Um yeah, maybe just quick plug. Uh you know, obviously if anyone has not downloaded Phantom yet, please give it a try. phantom.com. Follow us on Twitter at Phantom. We're also hiring really aggressively across pretty much every single role that a a company in general has to offer, especially engineering, product, and and design. So, if any folks uh you know, are looking to join the team, please DM me directly. Or check out the jobs page on the website.

Yeah, just and appreciate you guys having us on. >> Awesome. Thanks for coming on, guys. Appreciate it. >> Yeah, cheers. Talking to you both. >> Thanks. Take it easy. >> Thanks, guys. >> See you on Twitter. >> See you. Bye. >> All right. >> That was awesome. Yeah, Phantoms Phantom's crushing it. Really appreciated the in-depth Hyperliquid angle there, Shonda, as well. It'd be really interesting. I mean, you really see the power of what the of the of the product Hyperliquid's put together from the perspective of a front end like Phantom.

You know, you could hear how excited they are about that setup. Very interesting. >> And so, we talked we spoke with the Phantom guys. Now, we've got some Hyperliquid adjacent fellows out here, Alex Omnia, Kinetic, and Max Fiege, I would say. I don't know, institutional investor, maybe community member. Um What whatever term is. Thanks for coming on, guys. >> Thanks for having us. >> Cult leader at Hyperliquid community. >> Thanks for having us, guys.

>> Awesome. Well, we just we spoke to the Phantom guys a little bit about about the Hyperliquid integration. I guess now we can pull in some, you know, Hyperliquid adjacent folks to talk about even that again integration or, you know, others that we're thinking about or just generally like that ecosystem and I know Shonda here has got his own thoughts that maybe we can go into some more detailed conversation on. But I guess I'm curious just to get your guys takeaways like what do you think about you know, Phantom rolling this product out? What do you guys think the future holds here for you know, maybe additional hyper liquid rollouts on other platforms?

>> I think this is like the the bull case that a lot of us have had for a long time and it's just takes time for these things to actually come come to market and I think but what's you know, most compelling to me is just that it is a you know, cross ecosystem play, right? Like Phantom grew up on Solana and sees value here and I think uh you know, that's I think the the best validation you can get you can get. And I think the scale, right? It's just on a whole different level, right? Like I I would guess maybe you know, we see 25 30,000 DAUs on on hyper liquid. I I forget. I think Artemis keeps track.

That's right. We've been watching that and Phantom is obviously on the scale of millions, right? So obviously the the perps product is very slow in its rollout at the moment. I think last I saw it was like 3,000 users have been onboarded via their referral code. But I mean this could just move hyper liquid user metrics to a whole another scale in of itself. Let let alone other people other platforms doing this, right? So I'll definitely be keen to see how this plays out over the coming month, right? Cuz yeah, again it's kind of unprecedented at the Phantom scale.

>> It's also EU only, right? If I remember correctly for now. >> It's quite limited. Yeah, I I don't think every user sees it in app. >> I don't know if it's EU limited. I have it on my mobile wallet. They might just be doing like a controlled rollout to kind of stress test it, but it doesn't seem like they're limiting like particular maybe outside of the UK cuz they saw I saw in their tweets they say not intended for UK residents, but >> Okay. Okay.

>> It doesn't seem like they're using Hyperliquid at all. Yeah. Um which is interesting actually. Um because you at least natively I think when you go to Hyperliquid they they do have geographic restriction, right? On that site unless they've changed that recently, but I know that like Axiom as well their integration they I don't think they do any um like limited geo-blocking unless you know I maybe I haven't tried a VPN in all 195 territories, but >> Many if not vast majority of the builder code apps do not geo-block cuz I mean maybe this is the reason for it, but most of them are mobile like on Telegram and whatnot. Um So yeah.

I mean I would expect like it's totally expected that Phantom would roll it out that way and then you know I would expect others that are of a larger scale to definitely geo-block, but the point being that yeah most don't right now because they're based on things like Telegram and whatnot. >> That's kind of an interesting I mean I'm sure this is not intentional, but that's an interesting angle there that Hyperliquid itself will geo-block and then like I got it if you're plugging into >> builder codes like make your own decisions. >> Yeah, well it's just a UI, right? I mean at the end of the day it's you can't geo-block the chain.

>> Yeah. >> I mean you could I guess, but good luck I suppose. But anyway, you know point being that yeah like the hl.xyz UI is you know just a mere front end compared to what's actually happening on the background and think I this this stat I have not personally confirmed, but I think there's over 100 teams today that are using or integrating builder codes actively, and I'm sure many under the hood. Not factoring in like, you know, of course HIP-3 stuff that happened, um which would be awesome if builder codes rolled over into that. Um but anyway, yeah, I mean just piggybacking off of uh Max, this is super crazy to see play out with Phantom. Was just saying to them before

this, and so you know, shout out to those guys if they're listening. Uh very exciting. And uh yeah, yeah, just big applause to them. >> Yeah, just to round out a point there as well. I just got confirmation that's not just EU, and they're rolling it out to certain countries just depending on uh individual regulations as well. >> Very bullish. Very nice. >> And I mean more generally, I do think like the end state of hyperliquid is to move away from the hyperliquid front end, which is maintained by the foundation, and move to like a really permissionless system. And I think, for example, you'll see front ends that with HIP-3 can actually list all these markets immediately, rather than hyperliquid front end, which is going to be limited at first. Obviously, due to

like there's some regulation that plays into it. For example, if you need lists uh equities, I'm not sure that you can just list that on the front end. But if you incentivize builders to create hundreds of different front ends that users can access, then that's how you get these uh permissionless systems that everyone can get exposure to. >> Yeah, how I guess how are you feeling about the potential for, you know, like the on-chain equity thing has been a bit of a narrative here, and that coming to hyperliquid seems like an interesting angle. Like some of the crypto, you know, tradfi crypto companies are going about it in their own way, like kind of in the reverse direction.

Um but you know, X stocks, like they've got some some some tickers on Solana, for example. I don't know, what what are you guys thinking there? It It seems to me like it's potentially meaningful, at least from the perspective that it seems like a lot of people who are maybe trading on the SAP today, like there's a little bit of a regulatory arbitrage there. So, then to also be able to trade you know, equities that maybe maybe there's a large user base here that that doesn't have access to those things with you know, with size or with like a meaningful level of like safety or comfort putting you know, assets on an exchange that aren't like within the US for example.

Um What What are you guys' thoughts there? Is that something that could really expand from here? >> I I don't think I'd be the first to jump to be the one bringing that to market. It's obviously a thorny topic. But, I think that the one point I would make is just um you know, like Hyperliquid has succeeded at things that have, you know, failed in other contexts, right? Like we saw the the pump fund pre-list market yesterday. >> And a great point.

>> right, like the open interest got like up to 100 mil or maybe or maybe it was the volume that got up to 100 mil. But, you know, just like a whole different scale than what we've seen on other platforms pre-listings for example. >> No, I think OI had 100 mil. It did like 12 bill No, I got to check this. But, I think it the last 12 hours it did like a few billion in volume. It's crazy. And to your point, you know, we've seen a lot of teams try this and get nowhere close. >> Mhm. Right. And so, I think when we talk about on-chain equities at least what I think is is compelling in this context if is if you're able to roll up both equity perps and on-chain equities, I I do think, you know, just the kind of user activity

around perps, right? Like can actually draw demand forward for tokenized equities that in a vacuum may not have been there, right? Like if everyone is like longing the Tesla perp, right? Then now a more sophisticated, you know, market participant can short the Tesla perp, hold the tokenized Tesla on the same platform, on the same block space, right? Open up that Delta neutral trade. And now you're introducing I think a lot more liquidity than what prior attempts you know have been able to achieve.

Um and I think that's what makes the hyperliquid angle here unique, right? Um it's not just hey, we threw some you know offshore debt instruments in an AMM and call it a day. I I I do think like we could see demand here at a level that we haven't previously seen and there's definitely convenience, right? I I don't have to move to my balance from hyperliquid to interactive brokers, right? To to punt on some of these assets now, which which is very compelling.

Um but like I said, you know, I it's a probably a big opportunity, but it's a big thorny hairy opportunity. So, you know, someone's going to take that risk and someone's going to figure it out. Um and it ultimately like tokenized equities do sound like the end state of of a lot of this, right? But um you know, I don't I don't know if we have the breakout moment this year necessarily. >> From the builder POV, I think uh just acknowledging the quality that's already been rounded up with regards to ambitions to build on AGB3 has already been really insane. Uh the amount of pre maybe not not starting with pre, but

more like the amount of ideas that have already been floated around with regards to types of markets that we could see, types of exchanges that we could see built uh around things like pre RPO trading, which has been really interesting, prediction markets free of oracles. Uh obviously, you know, the the lower hanging fruit, which you know, doesn't uh fairly account for the risk associated with this, but obviously the one that everybody's most excited for initially is, you know, uh stock perps, right? Uh commodities to follow, uh, maybe even ex- FX rates, bonds, etc. Like you can really do anything. But I think what's pretty under-appreciated is the fact that, uh, and I think you you know, understandably because as is, uh,

common with Hyperliquid and its announcements, it's usually a very, very straightforward, very literal announcement without a lot of context behind it. So, it takes the community, um, you know, uh, several cult leaders within the community to really break it down in, uh, digestible forms and ways that can be applied into several ideas. Um, give an example here is it's not very clear that using HIP-3 and like getting the 1 million hype actually creates your own exchange that you can then set a singular collateral type for the entire exchange, which then becomes the base pair asset for everything you list, right? So, nothing even stops several teams or, uh, you know, an individual team by itself launching several

exchanges for 1 million hype each and then subsequently paying for each pair in hype as well. So, I think a few components of HIP-3 are very misunderstood, uh, not in a bad way, but just from a, like as you could say, scale and monetary requirement way. And then on top of it, it's just a general, I guess you could say, skill issue where, you know, the the soundness of a team with regards to, uh, market operations needs to be at a level that is it, let's just say, you know, builder codes are a lot easier to start integrating than uh, running an exchange on on uh, Hyperliquid via HIP-3, right?

Builder codes is literally as it sounds, like a few lines of code. Whereas HIP-3, you know, you'll need to handle everything from like market settlement, uh, to Oracle selection, if at all. Obviously, you know, market curation. So, yeah, it seems very exciting, but the point being that, yeah, going back to the point you guys mentioned, I mean, um, the scale of the product that Hyperliquid has built here is, um, you know, we're We're much at the tip of the iceberg still, right? With regards to what the application actually looks like and starting to see that is very cool and just, you know, obviously can model that what it starts to look like, but um it goes back to huge dub here for Phantom. Staking referral tiers obviously being something really cool as well.

There's some exciting things that you could do around like stake optimization for things like HIP-3, um even stuff like, you know, gathering gathering several, I don't know, open market type, you know, stakers to basically go and select and back a builder code uh or or builder deployed exchange through HIP-3 could be something really crazy, too. I mean, who who uh wouldn't want to throw some hype into back a Phantom exchange, right? For example. So, yeah, just just throwing things uh in there in terms of just uh things ways to start thinking about the application of um these various products on the builder code side, HIP-3, etc.

>> Yeah, super compelling. Um just to backtrack to one stat I was completely off on when I was looking at volume in units of pump. Um it's a yeah, you're right, Max. It's about 100 million in 24-hour volume and 100 million as well in open interest. Which is still a monster launch relative to a lot of the I mean, also this has been a very anticipated token launch, but um I I think it's the the combination of the two. Uh the hyperliquid product plus this monster token launch that it gets exciting. >> Yeah, I've been um and maybe some some thoughts here, but I've been surprised at like the the spreads on this like pump pre-market.

You know, I expected this thing to be maybe be a little bit more illiquid, but there's actually a ton of demand for this. And maybe part of that is due to like the limitations of who can and cannot get into this actual pump sale, but uh like you mentioned, like we've pre-markets for tokens have never been this large. And yeah, you're right, Dan. Like this is I mean, it's probably like the one token to have ever had for a pre-market to uh achieve a size like this, but um either way like even with relatively larger size in the hundreds of millions if not low billions like of of FDV for tokens in the past like the pre-markets you know struggle to do hundreds of thousands if not maybe a few million before going live.

Um you know like volume so it's it's interesting to see how like jumped on this this opportunity is. >> Yeah, I think it goes to show like there's cross-pollination you know across across all these order books, right? Like you bring retail flow in. Um I mean I think the timing of the Phantom integration is perfect, right? Like the Phantom integration rolled out and now you had a pump fund relaunch market and presumably you know that's all Phantom users were actually familiar with at that point in time, right?

Um and you know and then speaking with like the the market makers that have you know uh deployed on on hyperliquid. I mean that really is their launch start, right? Like if there is flow they will deploy, right? Like you you don't have to pay them, right? Like it pays for itself basically. Um and so it's I think it's compelling to see, right? Like people come for these like hot flashy, you know, moment in time markets and then they stay and that you know I think just builds up to larger and larger critical mass of liquidity as a result.

>> I think a lot of people are surprised by the quality of uh hyperliquid's liquidity first and foremost, but also the level of sophistication in terms of you know the market makers that actually are prominently on hyperliquid and how sticky it's been with those guys, right? Tip like uh I know it was a shock to me so I speak from personal experience, but also just generally through conversations. I think people are very very taken aback typically because it's not what they would expect in like the first 10 times thinking about something like this. Uh so, yeah, just adding that on as additional context as well. It It's You know, there are very, very sophisticated uh liquidity providers on Hyperliquid. And again, I think the point I'd accentuate

here that Max made is like they are not paid whatsoever. They literally just, you know, get this pristine flow essentially. So, that has been really cool. And again, like the the crossover is Fantom and their users benefit from it, right? Like you're not trading on some illiquid VAMM, you're trading on an insanely stacked uh order book essentially. An analogy I recently made was uh I can't I You know, you guys are are the gigabrains, right? So, like very curious to see like if there's a another business on planet Earth that's that offers something similar to Hyperliquid, but with regards to the builder code component, it literally is uh you know, the most literal way of explaining what it is as an offering is Hyperliquid handing the entire world a

$4 billion, you know, kind of active platform from a cash perspective that's there and, you know, verifiable, can be tracked, and then saying, "Hey, you can use this, make up to 10 basis points uh notional on a perp trade, uh and 100 basis points on a spot trade, and we're not going to charge you anything for it. We're just taking our general fees, which your users will pay, and then this is what you can add on top." Uh I think any business today that is not saying yes to that offering is uh going to end up on the wrong side of history.

Uh That maybe that's a conservative way of putting it, but the point being that uh yeah, like that is that is the offering of builder codes in a box. And again that's it it's kind of crazy to to see like how this overlap between like the quality market makers that have showed up to Hyperliquid um you know, enabled a product like this to be so success successful, and there's a crazy flywheel enabled by that. The more platforms that integrate Hyperliquid through builder codes, the more flow exists, the more liquidity will arrive, etc., etc. So, anyway, just not to continue trading the conversation that way, but just another analogy, um, that I think is is pretty valuable with regards to how to best think of it from a mental model perspective.

>> Yeah, no, I think it's a great point. I don't know if anyone has a better, um, builder code dashboard, but, um, the guys at SuperX have something here, but, uh, I think something known to people maybe within the ecosystem is like PvP trade, Axion, like these are just some big ones, and um, they've done tens of billions in in traded volume on hype, and have earned upwards, like for PvP specifically, a few million, uh, in fees off of that, and Axion is approaching that $1 million mark, and they've only been in business for a few months now, uh, which is is pretty impressive to see, I think, for them. Um, the interesting part here is it's like like you mentioned, you know, it's a pretty small lift to get this integrated, um, relatively speaking. Um, and for, you know, like these trading

apps, when you look at Axion or other trading bots, for example, you know, they're very focused on this like on-chain meme coin game, they're making a ton of money, you know, they're taking, you know, 70, 80 bips net maybe from, uh, from users trading those things and um, it's pretty interesting to be able to just like toss a hyperliquid, you know, perps kind of integration onto that platform alongside it, and and basically utilize their distribution for some additional fee flow, and it's and make a better product for the users. Um, it makes a lot of sense, it makes a ton of sense. I I can see why a lot of these teams, like more recently Axion and and now Phantom, have have gone this route.

>> Yeah, and then I I think we'll we'll we'll we'll we'll we'll see, you know, more of our adoption, too, just as these hip three markets, um, eventually get deployed on mainnet in the coming months, that's that's my expectation, like cuz they will not be hosted on hl.xyz. So, you know, ev- everyone who wants, uh, you know, have the fun of of running their own perp market also has to figure out their own distribution, and I think, you know, teams like Phantom will will be critical um in in surfacing those markets. >> That maximizes >> Yeah, I think over some time how your 2 and 2 to be exchanges will likely start to leverage builder codes as well.

Because again, it is a free $4 billion of liquidity that you can just pass off to users and and tack that fee on top. Um so, that will Yeah, that will be the day, to say the least. >> I think going back to the builder codes really quickly, if you look at Axiom, I think we saw they did like eight uh 77K in volume. Uh their builder fee is actually really low. It's like one basis point. So, if you do some napkin math, that means they've done around 8.7 billion dollars of volume, which, I mean, that is significant even compared to Jupiter perps. And I think with Phantom, even in the near term, you're going to see Phantom and Axiom do more volume than Jupiter perps. And it's kind of

going to become this chain agnostic thing that anyone can plug into, whether you're a uh centralized exchange, whether you're a L1, you're going to access um Hyperliquid's liquidity. And I mean, like, even if we go back to what we were discussing earlier about tokenizing equities, one thing that we were concerned about was what's the value of a listing if you don't have the moat of Hyperliquid because it won't be hosted on their front end. But I think the more these builder code applications are getting adopted, and the more volume that flows through them, the less that matters.

Like, for example, we just talked to the Phantom team, and they did seem uh pretty optimistic about unit and tokenized equities. So, if you can bring tokenized equities to those like 15 million monthly active users on Phantom, that's very significant. And then, um not being listed on the hyperliquid front end, it almost doesn't matter anymore. >> Yeah, that's right. Yeah. >> So, my actual point >> Yeah, I'm just going to add to what you said on the Axiom point. I I actually wrote a report covering them 2 months back in May, and at that time they had only it was like basically half of the fees had had been earned at that same, you know, 1 you know, 0.01% fee rate. So, they had already done about, you know, 4

billion in volume at that time. So, in the past 2 months they've been clipping along at like 2 billion in volume a month being traded through there, which is I mean, that's pretty impressive. >> But, you made a good point on the moat that is the hyperliquid UI, yes, but I would argue the liquidity is more of a moat. It's something that we get asked about a lot with regards to just this general mental model, like, oh, like without the hyperliquid liquidity, what's the incentive? Well, the incentive is I think pretty clear. Obviously, it's very costly, but the point being that you could leverage this insanely performant order book infrastructure and just general on-chain architecture to launch your own exchange if you have the chops, right?

Um, it is obviously a huge lift, but the point being that uh what we've even gotten wind of is teams working on this kind of I guess you could say not HLP, but like maybe a modified version of like HLP 2 as a service. Really, some teams have even thought about internalizing this actually, and like making some of the markets themselves, at least uh minimally. And market makers are definitely foaming at the mouth for this because it's just again, extra flow, different markets. Um, Oracle providers are jumping on this really bigly as well. So, I mean, just an absolutely insane ecosystem unfolding right before our eyes here.

>> I mean, it's going to be interesting the different ways different users leverage uh HIP-3, right? So, I mean, some people are just going to build their own decks, um but I can also imagine, as you said, like market makers, instead of providing liquidity on Binance, Coinbase, what they're going to do is they're going to work with projects teams, they're going to get the 1 million stake requirement, and they're going to do the say kind of hybrid liquid listing as a service, where they create the market um on behalf of project tokens. >> Yeah, the the Phantom guys that, you know, they've they've not committed to anything yet, but something that we talked about the other day was around this concept of like you you could see a concerted product rollout to, similar to the other like chains, for example, that

they support as a wallet, like if you enable like native in-wallet staking of Hype, for example, that you know, they could build up uh a stack of that, and then utilize it for maybe some of these other purposes that that kind of are integrated into this either HIP-3 approach or like the um the other point about capturing that like fee delta um in the case of the the builder code kind of margin that you'd get over, you know, having your users trade on there. Um which I well, I do think is interesting. >> Yeah, I mean, we've never really seen like an L1 token that has that level of uh impact on a user's experience on the network, right? If if they stake it, like you're not getting cheaper gas fees

on ETH just by holding staked ETH, right? Like Um so, it'll be interesting to see, you know, how how that kind of formalizes over the coming months in particular. Uh you know, I Uh I work with Hyperion, which is the Hype treasury guild, which is listed on Nasdaq, and there's definitely been a lot of inbound interest on, you know, how can the Hype the company owns be used for like bilateral agreements with, you know, firms that want trading fee discounts or projects that want to have three markets, right? Which require 1 million height bond. So, uh yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it just everything like this constellation, right? Of of liquidity and utility

across the network. Um yeah, I I don't think we've seen uh the even almost the start of it, right? Like I think Phantom is like the shocker around the world uh in that regard. >> Do you see uh like Hyperion and maybe others like specifically going in that direction? Like they they're excited to potentially like, you know, list an exchange basically through Hyperliquid via this kind of methodical of acquiring the asset as a as a treasury asset and then making use of it on chain?

>> Yeah, we're we're we're definitely getting inbound on that front. Um and it it's it's interesting, right? Because it gives you essentially uncorrelated income somewhat on the underlying height, right? Like doesn't really matter if height is worth a little or a lot, right? Like if you're providing that bond, um and you're doing like a fee revenue share, for example, right? Like it just I think introduces a level of like non-correlation that we just typically don't see with these types of assets.

Um you know, of course, I think in a future where there is a lot of demand for hip three markets, height is probably doing well. So, that you know, there there's a bit of correlation, but this is obviously a league ahead of like, you know, we stake it and we get 10% in in the in the underlying, right? Like that's this is this is quite a bit more sophisticated and I think it'll it'll attract the interest even if uh you know, traditional you know, legacy market participants as well. >> What are you guys' thoughts? I know it got mentioned earlier like Jupiter perps versus, you know, now if if Phantom and and others like you know, Axium that are kind of like native to the Solana ecosystem are

integrating with Hyperliquid like what do we feel about their forward prospects and maybe if there's already been something of a shift in the past few months. I have not kept track of the of the Jup perps activity in a while. >> Yeah, I mean I do think Hyperliquid OI as a share of, you know, perps market share has has been up into the right. Um you know, I I would just say like, Hyperliquid came to the market with ultimately lower fees, smaller spreads, and liquidity is only going to be get more liquidity, right? Like it just becomes a black hole at a certain point if it hasn't already.

Um and so I think, you know, for other platforms to have a material shot at competing like you know, odds are your slippage is going to be lower. So you probably have to start with the fees you charge and you know, historically Jupiter has been quite a ways higher. Even, you know, going through the Phantom interface where they charge you, you know, the builder codes on top of the Hyperliquid fees, I think you're still coming out ahead uh of Jupiter. Um and so ultimately, right? Like I think in the Solana case in particular right?

Users interface with Solana through Phantom. Like when I go on Instagram reels and I see, you know, meme coins taking you know, center stage in in kind of the pop culture, it's always download Phantom, send Solana to it and then buy something, right? And so as long as distribution is controlled by yeah, wallets and these like Phantom, right? Like I think they will be able to king make protocols on the back end. Um and you have to be competitive if you want that distribution. >> Uh the other part is asset selection. Uh Hyperliquid has over 100 perp markets.

Jupiter remains with only three. Um Also, I mean, maybe I'm not sure how valid this would be, but maybe just my personal take on it as like a just from the trader POV is the wrapped Bitcoin version of you trading on Jupiter may or may not be the ideal way to trade and like you are also betting with Hyperliquid that they have a lot better way of like or more reliable way to price Bitcoin on their exchange like with the way that they weight each exchange that provides the oracle pricing for Hyperliquid or Hyperliquid's Bitcoin markets to be specific, but on top of that as well is a point that Max brought up earlier

which is now thanks to unit you could also run the funding rate arbitrage trade all on Hyperliquid. So, I mean, imagine like users being able to run this directly from their Phantom wallet. Like that's that's a massive offering. I don't know if they offer it on spot by the way. Like they they don't I'm not sure if they offer Hyperliquid spot assets. I'm assuming the answer is no, but I wouldn't expect that to be far behind essentially especially if their Hyperliquid usage goes through the roof through Builder codes. So, yeah, my own personal take like if I had if I was just a regular user would be like choosing a platform based on asset selection.

If Phantom the way I'm looking at it too is like from a generally logical perspective is like if I'm Phantom and I want to have a robust perp offering, I'm not going to offer something that has three three options for markets. I'm going to offer something that has you know, like Max said like there is actually really cool correlation between Phantom supporting and then the pump pre-market. So, that was huge. I mean, and like that's probably kicked off a lot of other volume and usage already. So, yeah, that's that's what immediately comes to mind there with regards to that. I mean, we saw a lot of pretty aggro comments around Solana perp decks is getting one Um you know, I I think there is some validity to that, not necessarily to them as a

like from a business perspective as a whole, but just more so like it is pretty crazy signal indeed that Phantom, which is you know, you could say a Solana native uh choosing Hyperliquid which uh yeah, that's that's pretty huge ultimately. So, yeah, that's my that's the extent of my thoughts on it. >> Yeah, I mean, I have pretty similar thoughts. I think like when you're a perpetual exchange, you have two kind of architectural designs you can choose, right? You can build on a general purpose uh L1 and then you get access to the existing user base, you have this composability that it offers, or you take it off to your own L1, which is more performant because you can customize the parameters, but then you're kind of siloed from the existing user base of liquidity, and you need a bridge onto the exchange if you want to

do anything in DeFi, you need to bridge off. And I think that's the value proposition of Jupiter or Drift that anyone on Solana can easily access the platform, but like strictly speaking in terms of execution, in terms of liquidity, Hyperliquid is better. And now with these like uh builder codes being listed on Phantom, you're stripping away whatever edge Jupiter had because you have this composability directly uh on your Solana wallet as well that you can just go long uh BTC, whatever of the 100 plus markets.

So, yeah, pretty bearish um >> Solana >> um DEXs on >> like more generally like general purpose DEXs on exchanges because that um >> Yeah. >> composability's been taken away. >> That's a that's a good point and like something that we've come across as well is uh this is pretty interesting. I think there's a lot of ego in this but like preventing something like this from happening but I don't think that a lot of perpetual exchanges or perpetual DEXs today actually realize that they would probably make more money simply just integrating hyperliquid.

This is like a pretty cold, hard fact at this point. You know, just using builder codes. Like, if you as a perp DEX, you know, and you guys do a lot of really good work on like uh token emission data and stuff like that, right? So, like, if you as a perp DEX and and just in general as a business, right? Like, why would you spend This goes back to the whole builder code capital efficiency thing. Why would you spend money, whether in tokens or in cash, incentivizing liquidity instead of just literally taking what is right now $4 billion in cash, in stable coins, on this exchange that you can integrate for free and just make money on top of?

Like, it makes absolutely no sense to not use that essentially. So, I I don't know. I mean, I don't know what this is. I don't run a perp exchange, but I would assume that uh the conversations internally are just like, we could do this better, and it's very clear that that answer is very far from the actual truth. So, yeah, it's you know, hopefully we start to see something like that, I think. I think it's possible within the next few months, if not a year, that we start seeing uh perp DEXs actually integrate hyperliquid liquidity. They're a lot better off becoming an aggregator than just like their own uh books, I think. And again, even if it's just for a bit to actually get Like, the the the primary argument today has been, oh, we have lower latency than hyperliquid.

Oh, perfect. Well, that that's fine. Like, you should at least give people the best possible experience they can, even if this involves using hyperliquid's liquidity to just bootstrap your own usage, and then people, you know, could find your UI or just general experience better, and you know, all of a sudden, now you're you're starting to solve that problem uh with regards to just the the cold start issue, right? So, I mean, that's probably how I would approach it if I was building a perp DEX. I would absolutely take hyperliquid's $4 billion for free, uh and just, you know, make money on top of that, right? But that's probably not how the rest of them think. You know?

>> Yeah, do you think pulling up a dashboard from uh Eleme here, who's got a great Jupiter perps, and he's got some other Jupiter dashboards Um that go into detail, but uh we do see like a notable drop off in activity of the perps product since like January February time frame and it's been kind of trending down and flat since then and we can see their AUM the Jupiter perps AUM basically flatlined and kind of peaked in mid-February um which is interesting. I I I don't the volumes that they had on here, you know, in the billions on a daily to weekly basis like don't support the idea that like all of it has gone to like Axiom for example, but it is interesting that time frame that like

you know, Axiom and some of these other like builder code enabled products came to market like a few months back and we've seen it seen it stagnate since then. So, um it could be a little bit of like a loss of appetite and a loss of users to some of these other interfaces that that maybe uh facilitate that volume and have, you know, more trading op- opportunities like you mentioned. The more markets, it's not just, you know, three four assets. Yeah. Like with Jupe perps. So, I think that makes a ton of sense. This is something that we've um honestly I think I've and I think we on the team have grappled with for a long time is like the success of the Jupe perp product despite just having a few assets and I think a lot of it, you know, has really come down to just like

you know, if you have a relatively like pretty liquid market enough for like those top assets, those top assets do drive, you know, a large majority of of all the volume. Um and so to an extent it makes sense and you could be right that just like offering up this quick and easy method to, you know, get to a better exchange from kind of within the Solana ecosystem still um really hurts them a lot. So, we'll have to see if these guys punch back. Like I'm curious to see if this is like within their visibility right now and they're working on because I mean, if if anyone knows the Jupe team like these guys they've been all over like acquisitions like buying out different things, like kind of punching with things. with new products.

Like they're very competitive team for sure so. >> Yeah. Um two points there really quick is that obviously Jupiter is more expensive by far as well, like almost by 2x. So, it's just doesn't make sense to trade there even if you think their liquidity is supreme. Uh on the other side of that equation as well is JLP, which is essentially this basket of assets rather than um you know, it's not really comparable to something like HLP, which obviously is a closed source strategy, but clearly just uh strategically takes on trades rather than just like access the the uh you know, the base pair uh no matter what. Like the only liquidity the only

liquidity you could trade against on Jupiter to my understanding. So, that's something that's interesting. One one stat that several people in the community have been starting to to push really heavily because uh when people think of Hyperliquid and then subsequently HLP, they're like, "Oh, well, HLP takes the other side of every trade, right? What happens if somebody opens a $1.3 billion James Wynn-esque position?" Uh you know, like isn't HLP screwed? You know, it's like three or four times the TVL. Well, HLP does like extremely small percentage of the platform's uh total volume, I think. Uh and this was probably going to be inaccurate. This is just the last time I saw. I think it was like the 15th largest trader by volume in the last 30

days. Uh that could be totally off, so don't quote me on that, but the point being that it is uh negligible compared to some of the volume that the other players on the platform do. And then net across, you know, all of the other thousands of traders, the tens of thousands on a daily basis. Uh so, just something noteworthy, I think, is the key differences between like what is the base liquidity on Jupiter plus the fee rate. I mean, so many different things combined here lead to uh I think Phantom ultimately choosing a very very easy winner and subsequently like the rest of these applications. So, yeah, it's it's very very very different landscape. I think it's turning a lot of perp decks economic models on their heads in real time, which is pretty funny to see play out.

>> Cool. Well, I guess I want to bring up one last topic before we close things out for today, guys. One of the other really massive things on the timeline that we mentioned was the pump sale and obviously the pump there is the active pump pre-market on Hyperliquid right now. I think I don't know if anyone has it pulled up, but I think it's being priced at like 5 and 1/2 billion right now and the ICO sale that's like go supposed to run this weekend is at a $4 billion valuation. So, people are like currently paying a premium to get get long pump before that that sale and and TGE or you know, launch of the token. I guess I'm just curious to get anybody's thoughts. I think this is on everyone's mind right now. Like, are you buying the pump token? Are you not buying it? Is it

going up? Is it going down? Want some candid thoughts. What do you guys think? How are we feeling about it? >> Also, been uh I think you know, pump's done something really respectable just uh from a sheer business growth perspective. Uh obviously can't say anything bad about that. I think uh it is going to end up as one of the better tokens that you can buy, especially if they're going to use a portion of it even if it was like 5%, but apparently the rumor is what? 25% or something. To buy back their own token, which is why I mentioned this thing on like Hyperliquid and its model affecting a lot of different economic models for for several businesses across the space.

No matter what it is. Could be a money market all the way to something like pump. Um I'm not a buyer. I'm not a a shorter, right? Like I am just going to watch from the sidelines and if it rips to something ridiculous, that would be really awesome, but um I think a lot of people on Hyperliquid in maybe that maybe in the same position as me would actually happy will like be happy to see that happen because hyperliquid get a ton of volume out of it. And once again something really cool that's happened that I'm sure I can say because this was published on chain of course through buying the the ticker for it but unit has bought you pump which means that you'll be able to run the funding rate arbitrage trade directly on hyperliquid with pump which is going to be insane upon TGE so

that's what I'm most excited for. I know this is probably going to be the most boring response but the point being that I would literally just like to see hyperliquid volume go burr. I think it is already and it will probably continue to especially with TGE coming around so yeah that's that's my take and obviously you know more power to Elan and Co if it if it does well you know so yeah. Well sorry last point bring pump to hyper EVM right like might as well do it. >> I mean I I think where the market is at it's going to do well right like it's it's clear animal spirits are back and so we can you know chop it up on whether rev share of X percent is appropriate or whether the valuation is appropriate

like it you know is top three in mind share for this cycle and I think people are willing to buy that at you know relatively tame FDV. I think the the question for me you know like the one thing I will say is right like people you know I think I've been comparing revenue flows across different you know apps and in crypto and I would say you know I currently see that revenue is is being a bit weaker just in in terms of where it's been trending but obviously if you're able to raise a billion dollar war chest you have a lot of room to pivot and a

lot of room to reinvent and you know get things going again and especially with with a fresh token right You you have the ability to incentivize. Um so I do think it's a buy and it's just will be interesting to me to see, you know, if Pump makes similar decisions to as Phantom in terms of just navigating the industry going forward, right? And really yeah, going where users are, going where liquidity is because I do think, you know, like that business model is definitely not dying anytime soon, right? Like our attention spans are not getting any longer.

Um and it looks like, you know, like again, animal spirits are on the table. So I think you you have to be bullish on it and hope for hope for the best execution from the team going forward. >> I like Pump at 5 billion FDV than I do Filecoin at 400 in 2021. Yeah, I guess I would I would pretty similar take in terms of how Pump is going to do. I think the premium kind of reflects the lack of accessibility for the ICO like a lot of people are restricted um or don't want to KYC themselves. I think it brings up another interesting point of like Hyperliquid becoming this pre-market platform that leads to price discovery

for tokens because you can imagine if if the premium goes even higher, there are going to be people that short the perp once it's on Binance and long it on Hyperliquid and that's kind of going to Hyperliquid is going to suggest what a fair market price is for new listings provided there's enough volume. So I think that's going to be very interesting going forward. >> Awesome. I like a lot of these points. I think uh I'll share one last set of chart or one last chart, I guess, uh relevant to the conversation. There was a mention around questioning their their current revenues and and the maybe the quality of them or the stickiness of them. Um the recent thing um kind of in the news or I guess that's

that's been happening is the bit of a shift from Pump Fun to Bonk Fun, um, which is a Radium launch lab kind of branded, uh, launchpad product. And so far like I mean they've they've held onto this like flip of activity. Um, a lot of the largest token creators have have sort of seemed to swap over from Pump to Bonk Fun in the immediate term here whether that's just due to how the like token creator incentives work on one platform versus the other or if it's, you know, a little bit of like outreach and and, uh, onboarding of of some of those creators, um, by the respective teams. Um, but yeah, I I think this is the one maybe one big question mark in the immediate

term that's, uh, kind of participants have to quarrel with is like, you know, a lot of their revenue might be at stake where, you know, for the past year and a half now they've basically been unchallenged in this category. Um, and I think this this has been the first like real threat. We've seen, you know, Believe kind of had like a few days of like very, um, you know, impressive activity, um, that sort of stole the thunder from like Pump for a few days, but this has been the first time we've seen like a a sustained, um, stealing of the majority position of of launchpad activity, um, especially on Solana. So that's a big question mark.

Um, as to my thoughts I I think I generally agree here like the the demand from people who maybe can't access it or don't want to KYC like you like you mentioned like I I think that's a reason to see a premium on this, uh, on this pre-market perp for Pump, um, it makes sense to me. Uh, and I'll say yeah, I mean I think I'm I'm bullish at this price. They I think they could be could have been a lot more you know, aggressive or maybe greedy with the valuation and they haven't. Um, like you mentioned Filecoin at several hundred billion a few years ago. Um, we we've seen a lot greedier valuations >> the 700? Oh, no.

Oh man. >> I don't I don't know the exact number, but we've seen some, you know what I mean? We've seen some pretty strong and aggressive valuations. Even even just last year, right? You know, we had L2 tokens launching at, you know, $30 FDVs. So, like to me, you know, this does not seem absurd. It's It seems pretty reasonable. Um And full disclosure, I am long on the Pump pre-market. So, let's see what happens. >> Just put the feet in the Assistant's fund, little bro. >> But, uh that's our thing. >> Awesome.

>> I guess it was glad to have you guys on. I was glad to have you guys on um talking about Hyperliquid. I think pretty exciting week for them, exciting week for Phantom, um and exciting week for Pump. Interesting that all of these like announcements, integrations all kind of tying to Hyperliquid at the moment. Um that's that's definitely good for the the fanboy community out there. I'm sure everyone who's long and strong hype is super excited right now. Um I'm sure they're they're excited looking at their port numbers. Um especially with with Bitcoin ripping higher, lots of assets are doing well right now. So, all in all a good week for the community.

Um But, awesome. Thanks for coming on, guys. And uh Max, Omnia, if there's any last last words or shout-outs you want to give, um go for it. >> Hyperliquid. >> All right. Well, thanks for having us, guys. Um you know, my Twitter is my my last name underscore first name, if anyone is interested. But, otherwise, Omnia's the one with the active project. >> Next week, soon. Soon. >> Okay. >> So, unstaking Hugo Burr. >> Yeah.

>> Coming soon. And thanks to Shondy here for going deep on HIP-3 with the Phantom guys. Uh they they didn't want to give too many specifics about their future plans, but we know, you know, I think Femi was pretty excited, honestly. He seemed He seemed pretty pumped up about Hyperliquid. So, hopefully we see more from them coming soon, but all right, we're going to close it out here. Great stream, guys. Thanks for coming on. Let's roll the tunes and we'll we'll roll out of here. >> Appreciate you guys. Take care. >> See you guys. Thanks, guys.