Michael Egorov: Curve Finance – The Stablecoin Exchange Protocol #391

Transcript

[Music] hi and welcome to episode this is episode 391 with guest michael agaroff so i'm brian crane and i'm here with my co-host ck now before we're going to talk about mike with michael about curve finance which is one of the automated market maker protocols has gotten the most traction uh we wanted to spend a minute to mention a few sponsors so there's para swap and pair swap is a great way to trade tokens on chain pairsup just came out with a big update

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get involved in the solana ecosystem and the final one exodus so exodus is an easy to use wallet which supports hundreds of assets and has native apps for all platforms including ios and androids it's a fully non-custodial wallet they're firm believers in that not your keys not your coins mantra so go to exodus.com and give it a try now with that let's go into our episode so michael it's such a pleasure to have you thanks for coming on maybe just share a little bit background about yourself like what's what's been your journey and especially kind of like your journey to becoming involved in the crypto space

so yeah basically my crypto journey started in late 2013 uh with buying a little bit of bitcoin at the time i was doing postdoc in physics after receiving phd in physics and shortly after i actually went to the united states to work in tech industry at linkedin at the time and i've learned a lot a lot about crypto at that time as well and um and actually started a company which was not doing crypto called 0db which is now called new cipher and it's operating in crypto so anyway that's kind of how it started

and but but what i'm doing right now is quite different and that is because i actually become quite a heavy defy user starting from late uh 2018 i guess with maker daw and i always had this problem of swapping between stable coils all the time because i was doing that on coinbase and that was not quite effective and at the same time i was uh doing some some trading bots and this kind of created the idea how to swap between stable coins effectively and that's that's what started started curve finance and in the

beginning of 2020 i've finished implementation of my algorithm in in viper and the basic ui and the started curve.phi and basically uh what we have today is a continuation of that maybe let's start by diving into curve directly here so do you mind for people who are not familiar with curve can you explain how curve works first of all from the perspective of somebody who wants to trade and you know let's say with your example of like you know swapping different uh swapping different uh maybe stable coins

right right yes so currently the primary purpose of of curve is exchanging between two coins of the same denomination most notably u.s dollar stable coins like usdc and die for example but also there are btc denominated coins so you can swap between btc and btc and even if denominated coins for example uh for example if uh well real ethereum and you know staked ethereum staked with leader for example that's also a popular use case so and basically you could you could swap for a reason of

let's say let's say if it's if you want to interact with maker dao you probably won't die and if you have usdc it's probably a coin which is easy to redeem to your bank account and that could be one reason to swap or for example if you want uh to go from your ethereum to staked ethereum you could also do it that way or maybe the other way around that's kind of from the from the trader perspective and on the other hand there are users who deposit on into curve pools and they earn trading fees and also crv tokens and maybe some subsidies by the protocols who

sponsor the pools and that's kind of the yield you get as a depositor in the pools that's how the liquidity gets there in the first place yeah i should actually also add this disclaimer here which i mentioned which is that yeah i do use that uh so i've been with my company kind of very involved in lido so i'm you i'm doing exactly that at the moment right where i put a lot of my ether into lido and then got the stake ether out and then put that into the curve pool between ether and state ether so and have having that process also earn some crv so i have also some of those tokens at this point

now with i guess one of the essential things around curve right is that you know if you compare it so you know you have basically this function or where you you're trading not with a counterparty uh like so there's not like oh did the counterparty is kind of like a smart contract and then there is a function that determines the price can you talk a bit about how that works with curve and what's special in this regard for curve yes so basically what is common for many for many of the automatic market makers is that you have some liquidity

in all the coins involved and let's say you when you swap from coin a to coin b as you the user buys a little bit of coin b from the pool and the pool gets also more of coin a the price shifts a little bit so that coin b which gets bought becomes a little bit more expensive and then uh the so-called bonding curves they describe how this pricing changes different protocols have different bonding curves for example unit swap 2 has constant product bonding curve which is where the pool basically rebalances the whole holdings what we did we kind of concentrated

liquidity around the price uh 1.0 that's where the liquidity is most needed but then it's um kind of smoothly going down to as you get away from uh from the price uh 1.0 so uh basically when you're close to 1.0 you get the highest depth of liquidity but let's say if the price changes a little bit let's say it becomes 1.01 you have the depth being a little bit less and there are pool parameters which define how tightly are you concentrated around this

1.0 price different assets may need kind of different concentration of this it depends on the asset volatility for example stable coins like usdc and usdt are very very stable so you can be very very dense around one price 1.0 and something like staked eth is expected to be much more volatile so you we need to be to have liquidity a little bit more spread out but still much much tighter than kind of a universal relationship uh which the unit swap to a sushi swap or balancer has how did you come up with this design in

the early days uh the stable swap paper it seems like a very elegant solution to specifically like low volatility pairs what was like the process from like ideation how did you realize this was a problem in the beginning because you were working on new cipher at the time and how how did you go towards the design you have now yeah as i said the problem itself is it was kind of easy for me to figure because i was a heavy defy user and i always had this problem of swapping between die and usdc pretty much so that's that was one thing but the question how how to come up with uh with this

mathematical relationship it was interesting as well because firstly it was it started from a graph like bonding curves can be represented by graphs so for the simple constant product idea which was already out you the graph is basically hyperbolic and i first thought like we that the part which is close to price 1.0 should be flat and but not necessarily like completely flat because if it's completely flat then you kind of you have kind of infinite uh depth so um and basically i first started graphing it on paper and then i

started thinking what would be the formula which corresponds to this graph and also this formula should be not very complex because if it's too complex then i wouldn't be able to solve it in a smart contract and not eat all the gas and yeah so that's basically how i came up with with the design and the the formula for this so when you're looking for a flight you go to a flight aggregator to see all the different places where you can buy the flight to get all the options and make sure you get the best price for your travel plans and when you're making a d5 swap just do the same

and use paraswap it beats the market prices across all the major dexes because it aggregates them and thanks to their network of professional market makers you get zero slippage on your trades so they just pushed a huge update that's even faster and more liquid thanks to a brand new algorithm pair swap is now multi-chain and has expanded polygon and binance marching so go and check it out give paraswap a try at parashop.io epicenter and from what i kind of understand of unit swap v3 is that it allows you to recreate any graph in price space including you know the stable stop graph

yeah in principle correct yes it does allow you to create such graphs piece by piece something like a spline where you basically users can create their pieces of the spline and deposit liquidity into into those pieces and in principle that's uh that's actually good i actually had this same idea uh in early 2020 as well for volatile pairs until i had some other idea which i'm uh currently implementing which i think is fully automated so it's better but even like if we talk about stable coins one key

difference is that we are able to to quickly change these parameters without users redepositing anything for example imagine that you you have one graph well just an example from from maybe a week ago we had liquidity for staked east with leader being let's say spread approximately within like plus minus 10 from the price 1.0 but it turned out that st eth is actually very very stable so we are able to provide liquidity much better for it by concentrating it tighter and we did didn't have to ask users to kind of

do to redeposit liquidity into whatever ranges um we just made a dowel proposal to increase this this amplification coefficient how we call it parameter by factor of five and over one week this liquidity becomes tighter by factor of five basically as we speak it's it does so very gradually in if i remember correctly 5000 steps that's absolutely kind of transparent to the user so basically as we as we speak in this episode the liquidity in that pool becomes tighter and tighter without transactions becoming more

expensive without anyone redepositing anything anywhere so in principle these um analytical solutions they allow to do that quite cheaply so they are superior in that regard to uh to unisop v3 approach although i definitely can can see that the unisop v3 approaches uh allows for like very high levels of customers ability maybe at the expense of being a bit less convenient for liquidity providers so they should be quite professional sounds like yeah that explanation was really good so i i think it's it's not easy to wrap

your head around you know this entire like automated market makers and exactly how it works right but i think one one way that i think it's it's interesting to sort of conceptualize like why are automated market makers interesting is if you if you take and exchange a traditional order book exchange like binance then there are of course market makers there and you know these are like professional firms right there that are putting maybe bid orders in and ask orders in and they're watching other exchanges and they're updating them and they're providing liquidity that way and they're also earning money that way but you know i can't do that because i don't have the knowledge the

infrastructure you know and so what you're what but then with curve you're basically saying okay we have a program that does it and anyone can give money to the program and now you can be a market maker anyone can be a market maker and then actually with the uni-swap thing you're almost going into with the v3 thing right it almost goes into a little bit of this hybrid thing where well anyone can provide money to the market maker but there's a lot of parameters to choose and maybe to change an update so that like you know you can do it better versus curve is still sort of in there yeah yeah so if you explain unit swap three in these terms

it's almost like a traditional like a traditional exchange but instead of having discrete orders you have a continuous order book so instead of orders which probably date back to uh to like ancient times where you you had to write orders in in an actual paper order book you you can actually have them continuous and uh that's how it should have been when computers appeared but that wasn't the case until uni swap three i guess but really i think this is an improvement over traditional order books but still like the level of skill

required to provide liquidity in general for volatile players over there is i think the same so you kind of in traditional order books you just had to put i don't know a letter of orders right to sometimes and on unisopv3 you just have to spread liquidity from price a to price b for that that's certainly an improvement but to like to to figure where to put your liquidity like that there is a considerable skill required and like just to give you an example imagine that i'm providing liquidity for ethereum right

let's say ethereum price is at i don't know 3000 so and i've provided liquidity from i don't know 3000 to 3100 and it worked well while ethereum was there but then when price went up i'm left with with dollars so okay i take dollars and provide liquidity in a new price but if i do that i'm kind of losing on on ethereum uh going up and the same with with it going down let's say image and i provided liquidity at 4 000 and then it dropped to 3 000.

i'm left with ethers which were at around 4 000 maybe a little bit less and then i was back holding those while the price drops to 3 000 so i'm losing again so that's kind of what what happens if you do everything naively so it's a powerful tool but naive liquidity provision probably doesn't let you make money over there so that's kind of that's a problem with with that but that's also a problem with centralized exchanges and but but yeah market making are probably making money so they are probably skillful

skillful enough to uh to do that and i think they are the users that they would be the best liquidity providers for uni swap three let's get to our sponsor solana now this is a special ad for me to read because i've been a deep supporter of this project since meeting the solana team back in 2018. i invest personally in the project and my company course one is super deeply involved in the solana ecosystem including running the biggest validator so what's so cool about solana well we all know that scalability is the single most important issue facing the blockchain industry today and the solana blockchain is an amazing solution for it the network supports thousands of

transactions per second with 400 millisecond block times and over 500 validators the special thing about solana is also that it's not a chartered blockchain it's a single blockchain hyper optimized for performance so that makes it really easy to maintain composability between all of the apps on solana so that they work together seamlessly now and forever the solano ecosystem is growing at a rapid pace and it's a great place to build your project or just get involved with the community so go to solana.com epicenter to learn more i would love to expand a little bit on this more generally i listened to another podcast with you

where you said that you think you know automated market makers are you know this kind of like fundamental improvement fundamentally superior to traditional order book exchanges you kind of like say a similar thing here can you explain why you think that's the case basically they are pretty transparent in what's happening you pretty much know that they they will do the right thing what they're programmed to do but also from my observations automated market makers can be can be probably not worse than what traditional market makers code can

do while being not custodial so they can amass much more liquidity and maybe maybe traditional market makers would argue that that their markets are more effective than than uni swap 2 or balancer which is true but for cryptos but also i think it's possible to do much much better for cryptos at least at least we will try to prove it in that vein what do you see as the long term vision for curve where is in five years ten years and what

use cases is it uh is it allowing i think we are currently we currently started with stable players but i think if we go a little bit beyond that we probably would allow fully automatic creation of very effective crypto markets or foreign exchange markets and like who knows which like how much we can replace traditional uh order book approaches but i think that's uh that quite can happen to a certain degree got it so do you see it like kind of

going into uniswap's territory a little bit of uh allowing the arbitrary exchange between any pair of tokens or yeah i think that's uh that's uh of course a sensible thought but because you are talking about five and ten years we may talk about um i don't know about stock markets about uh foreign exchanges about like all sorts of exchanges which are known traditionally because i think the the story here is bigger than you know one d5 project versus the other it's it's about

whole d5 space capturing the traditional finance market this is probably a good time to mention that i'm you know disclaimer also a curve user and uh and token holder as well and have been participating and following along uh with this journey cool so this is one of the things that i've also like wondered about because with automated market makers you know like curving eunice who are like getting these like enormous volumes and when you've seen how they have taken you know a really substantial market share at this point from

you know centralized crypto exchanges and you know centralized crypto exchanges are still like you know good products right like they work well like user friendly you can make an account easily deposit money easily like so much better than uh traditional financial institutions in many regards but like still you've seen on-chain uh you know these automated market makers take a substantial market share from that so i have also kind of wondered with like is is that at this point this kind of like breakthrough success of uh of crypto and of blockchain that it has you know better market mechanisms and you know

whether that is going to be the thing that will really sort of drive you know the inroads towards taking more market share you know from traditional financial systems like do you think that's the case or do you think there are going to be other drivers that will be critical for this kind of transition one thing i would say that it's not necessarily i mean indeed like the blockchain activity kind of takes uh quite a bit of centralized exchange market share but also we've seen finance kind of uh successfully solving this problem with binance smart chain

which is which is yes it is centralized but uh it is centralized with the central authority being binance and not the services which are built over there so it's basically if if you do it on a centralized exchange you couldn't give some trading firm money to trade non-custodially and but on something like on a on an exchange chain you actually can do that you can do like money to trade to some uh to some decentralized service and that makes a big difference even if the chain is controlled by the

exchange and yep still ethereum is better in like my view but as we can see it's still quite successfully the exchange chain can can get some some bit of market share so that's kind of the evolution of that model awesome wanted to shift gears a little bit to maybe a little bit of a different direction but seeing uh uniswap and sushi swap how do you think about your moat what do you think about fork threat forks in general or you know projects that are very

similar like saddle when you think about curves long-term success yeah there are there are many ways to establish this mode one is if you if you look at how quickly forks were created it took some time to understand the the mechanism how the market making works on curve it's it was a little bit harder to understand that than constant product and this gives a little bit of time to like before forks start appearing i think uh probably unisop3 because it's quite a bit less understood by people

who who maybe who may fork so maybe it has some of this mode as well at the moment another way is probably good talking economics i think uh i think our token economics is probably good for for kind of keeping the competition away as much as possible and another thing is it's probably it's probably good to allow the forks but in such a way that they benefit the protocol we tried to do that with uh with a few forks we'll see how it goes

but yeah that's that's another way so yeah but it's still kind of experimentation phase so we are looking at at different uh ways to either preserve the dominance of the protocol or to get uh to get it done so that if forks appear that the same people pretty much own part of the forks stuff like that and we'll see what works out let's get to our sponsor exodus exodus is a fantastic cryptocurrency wallet that strikes the right balance between ease of use security and great features you can get exodus on the iphone

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so go to exodus.com epicenter and check out their wallet we want to thank exodus for their amazing support of app center so you mentioned token economics as as a mode for curve like what is it about you know the curve token economics that you think gives that kind of mode well i think uh it's kind of uh probably quite easy to understand in a naive way you can have pools earning uh all the fees for themselves so let's say you deposit into the pool and all the exchange fees go to your as a liquidity provider but you know market is not very stable so

sometimes these fees can go up by factor of 10 then drop down that we've seen that so it's a it's good to introduce some sort of inertia there and we introduce that by doing basically talking emissions so some of the token emissions go to the pool liquidity providers but some of the fees go to uh to the dow which means basically the token holders oh well token lockers if to to be more exact so we have this this loop where crv gets fees and those who would have who basically

paid part of those fees they get crv and if the volume tracing volume goes down temporarily well users still get crv but when it goes up and crv gets more fees so this kind of this allows the protocol to operate with a higher long-term stability but you know we still would need to see how it goes over i don't know over a bear market we still haven't seen that yeah because you basically you have to fees that are like volatile and then you have the curvy bars and the curvy words are based just on like the volume in the pool as

opposed to the trading volume no actually not that curve rewards are split proportionally between liquidity providers and the amount of curve rewards is determined by the dow with so-called weight voting but anyway this the speed of curve rewards coming in doesn't depend on the volume uh which happens in the pool but really it's voting of the dow which indirectly is inspired by how much volume the pool is making so basically imagine that some pool is very popular and it gets a lot of uh trading volume and then let's say dow

participants say oh looks like this poll is this pool is earning quite good money for the dow we probably should vote for this pool to get more crv so if it gets more crv more users will put money into that pool and you know it it will get even more volume because there is a high demand and we get more fees so that's kind of how it works it's not a very fast feedback but that's actually good because this makes basically returns for liquidity providers a little bit more stable kind of going back to a little bit of an early

discussion that we had earlier was about kind of the future of curve what's the next step like when do you think that you'll have like kind of your response to uniswap v3 or curve v2 or do you have any plans currently uh can you give us a sneak peek of what might be in that as well well i guess it's uh not changing anything for stablecoin pools these stablecoin pools are probably good as they are but we probably would need to expand into different asset classes and actually the work over there is very close to

uh to launching that so so that's uh yeah basically expanding to volatile pairs and we want to do it in fully automated way so not requiring liquidity providers to do that much of the manual work and it's it's a challenging thing so we will see how it works and it's challenging because you probably may find a lot of research where people try to to do automatic market making in like non-d5 world and it's it's hard it's hard to do effectively and

we kind of what that research tells you is that it's almost impossible to do uh to do it too much more effectively than what we've seen with unisoft e2 or balancer right that we want to kind of kind of defy this this common wisdom which existed before and and show that it's actually possible to do it much more effectively than before oh that that's interesting you're saying that so i i was under the impression that actually all the market makers have only really been used in crypto and in d5 but so have there been a significant usage of research into amm

outside and in raw areas of course of course i mean they are called trading bots and trading bots are quite quite there but you don't really want those trading bots who i don't know who look at some crocodile figure on the graph and decide that it's time to buy but you actually you're more think about trading bots who create markets and there was i'm sure market making firms use those i mean that's just i guess that's the way but also there was a lot of public research about that

and if you if you read that you probably may get an impression that it's it's super hard to create anything useful and yeah we will we will see if we can do better than all of that research if what we created is better another question that i had was what is your thesis on good governance so you know the curve token is both a way to incentivize good behavior in the protocol but also like fundamentally a governance token and different projects have taken different kind of views of what good governance is like

i think you know unit swap is is kind of like trying to governance minimize and make sure that any governance improvements are really vital and key and important and other protocols maybe urine are much more kind of move fast and break things it seems what do you see for curve specifically as like ideal governance and the ideal dow structure in the long run well i mean the current dao is specifically designed to to be a good dow in the long run one of the ideas is that you probably want

the voice of long-term token holders rather than rather than those who can buy token vote for something and then immediately immediately exit um so that's why we have so-called vote lock mechanism where you vote lock crv and you get you know the higher governance power the longer you look for and you can look for up to up to four years and that's what most people actually do and we kind of think that participants in the governance they they actually aligned with the future of that platform long term another thing is that

our system is quite modular so you can certain modules based on the governance vote but at the same time you cannot change the code so you just if governors even if governments wanted to it wouldn't be able to take users users funds so user funds are sacred you like even governance can cannot even plausibly get to those but governments can make decisions about like i don't know including future pools and some um some modular functionality which we

allow not everything we we even used so some things are kind of programmed in to be used in the future so it's a kind of a mix of immutability and flexibility like ultimate ultimate flexibility would be replacing every any code but we kind of think it's unsafe to do even for the governance so we are taking the approach where the code is immutable and you just you know governance votes for new things and users can think whether they want to ape into into new things or not what about the curve

like community and ecosystem today you know what what does it look like uh is is there a lot of participation or people you know are there are other places to make like governance proposals as well and like what's your vision for how you want the curve ecosystem to evolve uh you mean governance wise yeah governance wise or just sort of in you know in the the way you want the community to organize and to evolve the protocol as well well for evolving the protocol it would be of course good to expand to other chains it's a good question if governance can expand there but

uh pieces but you know having different pools on other chains and you know having all the money flows going across chains that's definitely possible and that's definitely something about uh what governance can vote for and yeah so i think that's one thing would you would you see crv having the kind of same function even if curve was deployed on on on several chains yes yes but but i think there is there still should be one place where all things concentrate currently it's on ethereum right but

like let's say we can have pools on well we actually do have already pulled on a pull pull-on polygon right and also a couple of pools on phantom and we just got admin fees from polygon back to to curve dow and it worked and we can get crv from from ethereum to polygon and that can be can be controlled by the dal like how much that pool gets dao can leave on ethereum but the pool is still over there on polygon so that's an example and this sort of scheme can work with multiple chains multiple layer twos

or like whatever will be used for scaling ethereum shifting gears a little bit wanted to talk to you about your thoughts on like the kind of security of curve you know this is a long long-term project with billions of dollars i think like more than seven billion dollars of tvl so how do you think about security and especially in like the decentralized context where code is being written by many different people how do you think about security and ensuring that like the code is always extremely high quality readable and and secure yeah that's uh

that's a good question we took a probably the approach different from what some projects have so from our observation most of the errors in the code are coming from the developer right so it's really up to the developer to to get the good code quality yes you can see that auditors can help to get code quality better that's true to some degree but also auditors don't see absolutely everything and they they can miss things so how to prevent that i think the best way is to have

all the code very very well readable so that like it's you know the focus should be on readability and for that we use viper language because like viper is much much more readable than solidity by humans at least and that ensures that we ourselves can can see can see things in our code still sometimes we don't see them immediately but we can not notice them much faster than if everything was in solidity so that's one of the things and of course solid is a much more mature language

which with more tools so in in that regard one could argue that it as a language it could be safer but given that most errors they don't actually come from the compiler most errors come from humans the focus should be on readability and of course which true for all projects there should be very good test coverage so automatic testing is is the must for smart contracts in fact i think smart contract code takes maybe five percent of all the lines of code maybe less and everything else is automated tests so for those we actually do quite advanced things with brownie

for example you could you could basically enumerate all the all the actions which smart contract or maybe external contracts can do and then you can let this tool to select different actions at random with random parameters and explore this parameter space trying to find some violations or basically some errors something which you don't want in your behavior and if if that happens it kind of raises a flag and you say oh there is something in the code which we need to fix right and i think this way actually is able to come up with flash loan

attacks for example like these sandwich attacks you can yeah they are actually simple so i think i think proper automated tooling can find them automatically one last question i wanted to ask was uh kind of legal and regulatory you know how do you think about the legal and regulatory questions around curve whether it comes to like securities laws for like curve token itself all you know allowing people on different jurisdictions to use uh the protocol and also just like how do you think like what are the biggest risks you see to like general defy regulatory landscape as well right right yeah so that's that's a very good

question as well there are different themes which are going in in regulatory space in the past it was mostly activity by sec and security tokens and i think with crv well at least in my opinion it's quite simple you see the crv token itself is not doing any function which is looking like a security but if you lock it you get some something called vecrv which is which allows you to vote in the dow it receives profits from the dow so it's kind of well feels like a security but the ecrv is not movable

you cannot move it you cannot trade it it's like only sitting in your wallet and when it's unlocks when it becomes crv again then it doesn't have that functionality so um so in my opinion the ecrv is a security but because it's not movable it's uh it automatically it automatically satisfies all the security laws and crv itself is just i think a utility token but yeah but sec i think is quite friendly to crypto projects these days there is also a question about uh inter like international money transmission

uh initiatives like fat that that could be tricky for defy because they are trying to regulate what what is not very much possible to regulate probably some common ground will be found it's uh over time but yeah so like for example if they say that all projects should should filter users or whatever it's just not possible to do with everything deployed so everything deployed just continues to exist and nothing can change that they could as well call vitalik and ask him to do that and he couldn't do anything right so if we think from the basics

what are the goals of that the goals are to protect users and to prevent criminal activity when it comes to protecting users i think the biggest threat in defy is very different from traditional financial world in traditional financial world the biggest risk is counterparty risk so let's say basically if you put money in a bank how can you make sure that this bank doesn't run away with your money of course very heavy financial financial regulations are there to ensure that with defy if well it's of course a risk if it's a custodial protocol if if the team has admin keys which allow to take the money but if

it's not the case the biggest risk is actually the code quality so and i think eventually we will see a lot of regulations around the code quality and how the projects can ensure that users are safe in that on that front and with criminal activity that's actually also interesting because actually blockchains are very transparent and it's uh fairly easy to see where everything goes and that probably doesn't make cryptocurrencies the best uh the best tool of criminals they do try to use that and they many of them

fail at that and i think at the moment at the moment cryptocurrencies involve less of a fraction of criminal related transactions than traditional financial system or at least i've seen that kind of information published anything else that you kind of want to add here or you want users to know about curve or before we we sort of wrap up well i think i think we quite covered uh everything and yeah i think it would be a pretty exciting time now we have a bunch of new stuff to publish and yeah if if the listeners can follow that

they probably will hear quite a lot of interesting things so cool how do uh potential listeners and users how do people get started and learn more of course they can go to curve.file and just start using it we have also resources.cur.fi with with all the guides how to use curve uh with for one or other purpose i think those those would be the best places to start cool thanks so much michael thank you for joining us on this week's episode we release new episodes

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