MetaDAO, Plasma, and DATs Crime | Livestream

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What's up, guys? Just wanted to give a quick shout out to today's sponsor, Apptos. We'll hear more about how Bitcoin, DeFi, and Apptos is heating up later today, but for now, let's get into the episode. Nothing said on Xerox Research is a recommendation to buy or sell securities or tokens. This podcast is forformational purposes only, and any views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our opinions, not financial advice. Pocachio, Ryan, and our guests may hold positions in the company's, funds, or projects discussed. What's up, guys? Welcome back to another episode of Xerox, another live stream of Xerx Research. I don't typically host these, so I am always a little bit behind. Um, as with my reactions to the market as well. Um, how is everybody doing today,

>> guys? The music's on. >> Very good. Thank you, Carlos. I appreciate >> we're live. >> We're live. Oh, wow. Okay. Good morning, everyone. Good morning. Um, we were just talking about the hate you've been getting, Ryan. Do you wanna Do you want to share it with >> What's >> Not really. I mean, just I feel like people are losing money. People are lashing out. Um, and it's it's okay. It's, you know, it's just the internet. Uh, it's just investing. Not everything is a moral crusade. And um you know, >> see this is very

>> there's a person behind that Twitter account. >> You know who was getting a lot of this hate? Dan Smith. When we first started posting about Rev and whatnot, Dan Smith, I remember he had to change his um his bio from whatever it was to something like please reme like kind reminder that this is only like Twitter. And >> I mean, I imagine he got I imagine he had a lot of people come up to him and because basically like all he did was post stats, but you know how Dan does it? He's a little snarky, you know, like if somebody comes up >> snarky.

>> Yeah, he's a little he's just like the thing is that if if um if you don't know what the stat is or like if you fundamentally disagree with facts, then like anything somebody responds to you, you're going to take it as snug. Like I'll tell Dan like, "Hey man, like I think whatever Hyper EVM is doing really well." And he'll be like, "Um, actually it's not like you can see the REV over here." >> And to me, that's snarky because it's in my interest that the Hyper EVM does well, right? It's not actually snarky, but he's just giving me the fact. Um, but yeah, it's tough. I mean, I don't want to I don't know how much we can get into this without sounding

narcissistic. >> Life's hard if you if facts upset you. It's going be real tough. >> Very good. Um Jacob, you're quiet. Are you also doing good? >> Yeah. Um doing okay. Not not the best day ever. I was just going to say uh I kind of I understand why people like sometimes cope and rage on Twitter. Um I feel like like a lot of people who are trading there their trading is so un like not correlated with their real life, right? They have like a real job, they have real friends and then they're just coming home and like losing 100k or like missing generational wealth after

generational wealth. And I mean in that in that case like how do you cope other than just sending someone on Twitter an angry message in an anonymous account, right? I mean it kind of makes sense. And um I almost did that today. I almost crashed that on Bokachio because he took my plasma allocation. I didn't click fast enough. But uh like all you can do at the end of the day, take it, add it to the whiteboard you've written down of times you miss generational wealth and hope that uh you hit it once. >> See, the thing here is that the younger generation, you don't know how to use the EVM that well versus like like I remember people weren't up in gas fees because they're used to Solana where you

just spam it as much as you can and there's like free settings. But it's okay. It's It's only like a 300% thing for depositors. It'll be fine. There's another trade on the horizon always. No need to be too upset. >> I mean, yeah. The thing is it's pretty easy to rationalize like missing out, right, when there are 100 trades. But it just hits different when you when you like already made up that you're going to make the trade. You had the money ready. Uh but you just too slow to click, right? That's a a pretty stupid reason to miss generational wealth.

Yeah. Another thing here is that I've I wrote about this on a newsletter, one of my um which we publish every day. Um so you guys should check it out. But I wrote about this and it's like there's always four to five trades per year, right, that are like really good. I mean, this isn't something that I come up with and the four to five number is very arbitrary obviously. But um you don't have to be too upset. There will be something else next month. I mean, I'm sure there will be more stuff next month. like there's a bunch of chains launching. I mean, if you think 10% of them do well with a token, um, it'll do. Okay. Um, I'm gonna we have a special guest. Um, but before we do

that, I want to give a shout out and then I'm going to have Colon Colon um, from Metadow on. Uh before that just want to give a shout out to our sponsors Aptos and Iggon Cloud. Um Aptos Bitcoin DeFi is heating up on Aptos with nearly 400 million BTC assets onchain. Apttos users can now earn yield on their Bitcoin via EchoABTC and OKXBTC without the typical bridge risks and high fees.

Thanks again to Aptas for sponsoring today's stream. And for IEN Cloud, is your treasury losing value to inflation? Learn how to make digital assets like ETH and Soul productive with uncorrelated protocol-driven staking rewards. Read the productive treasury report today by following the link in today's show notes. Um, with that just put myself There we go. How you calling? >> Very good. How you doing?

>> I'm doing well. How are you guys? >> Good. Good. Um >> outside of crashing out from uh missing generational wealth. >> We were Everyone's okay. Um Yakob will have to cope for a week or so, but I'm sure he'll forget about it in a week. >> Yeah, I've been in uh crypto for 11 years now professionally. Uh so there's been plenty of those moments in my life. I just don't look backwards. I can imagine it's um the um Carlos I want to let you lead um some of your questions with Colin. But before that, Colin, do you want to um give a rundown of what you guys have like recently

launched? Because for context, I followed Metadau with Futarch. I thought Futur was very interesting. Um but then you guys decided to launch a launchpad as well and it's like distinct to the way that other launchpads work on Salana. Um primarily I think it's um this thing to believe and pump fun. Um do you want to kind of run over that a bit? >> Yeah. Um you know to spread the good word of future turkey where where's the best place to get people to adopt it and that's at the initial capital formation period. um you know we had experiments with existing dows and organizations to run futur but it wasn't teeth you know

like this this wasn't binding this wasn't something that like proved that future turkey could work um so yeah it it we it came down to hey we think that we've got something here with being able to do uh I call it a fundraising platform not a launchpad just to be distinct but that's just some verb age. Um, yeah, like we could we could have these funds that are governed under futarchy. And what does that mean? It means that people can't run away with the money like you could um with any any existing ICO infrastructure or any trading fees that go back to you or any initial capital allocation or liquidity

um token allocation, that kind of stuff. and the the mechanism designed for the launchpad is important and we can go into more details around that, but like it's a key differentiator that you can't run away with the money and that attracts founders, people that want to build and I think that that's something that's pretty cool about what we what we're working on. >> Who who is who are the um typical founders that you guys are going for? Um because I imagine it's like preede or at least like >> Yeah. Um, you know, I think you got to prove it out. There's this is frictionful for founders and I I completely understand and sympathize with that. Uh, we ourselves have run few turkey. We didn't have any token

allocation. We didn't do fundraising traditional ways. We had to go to the markets to create these proposals to get allocation to get um capital allocated to us uh issue tokens etc. Um, so yeah, like I think it's what I've seen right now is um early stage founders that don't have traditional access to venture capital dollars or um maybe uh are in the competitive landscape that you know maybe you have one or two existing protocols or projects. Uh but I mean we we have found some venturebackable founders and worked with

them. We went out outbound to find these people. We thought maybe our total addressable market was one uh person out there that could raise VC dollars that would use this protocol because there is high alignment. But right now I'm seeing people uh come in maybe that need to raise anywhere from 100,000 to a million. And that's I haven't had anybody that's come in much bigger than that at least right now. And I think that there's a funny reasoning for that. But uh you know I'm happy to talk about that too later.

>> Can you can you talk us about like the evolution of Metadow like from a fringe futur just governance platform to how did you guys land on hey we want to do this ICO thing? Um like why did you embed future key like from the earliest stage of like capital formation? >> Yeah. Um yeah kicked it off where we were the single tenant of the protocol itself right like metadow was futuri would be using it to make decisions and after maybe two or three months then it was like oh other organizations that are on salana want to use this if we could make it multi-tenency

and so we spent the next three months April through June building out a multi-tenency protocol and a lot of the key features that you see today as far as like the trading and the um the platform and that was good. Uh Salana doesn't have a lot of Dows um unlike Ethereum. It has good ones, right? Like GTO, there's Jupiter, etc. But um you know like your addressable market there and then getting those people that are pretty effective in decision-m already to replace decision- making just may not make sense. I mean, and we're not like governance maxis here. If everything is working well, then you don't really have

to throw a wrench in it just for systems sake. Um, so yeah, like we adoption was slow and then you can't if you don't iterate quickly. How do you prove efficacy of future? How do you prove that it makes better decisions? Uh there's some Ethereum competitors at this point, butter. markets obviously uh they're taking a different approach on like met metric based KPI based we went down that rabbit hole with some of our experimentation just to see like what what could we do with it all and then I think February of this year it was hey you know we use this to raise money right like we like thea has raised uh proposals to us to

you know allocate capital for a token OTC deal uh we raised a proposal to go raised from Paradigm ultimately raised from Paradigm. Um Panta raised a proposal got rejected. Uh so like this could work right like the reason that people are putting money in maybe there's some thesis there. So we we circle back around and said well if funds are governed under futarchy the cool thing is is you we can't just run away with it right like the the the protocol exists there as a protective mechanism. And you know, Prophet and I, Prophet was like, I I really want like you to be on board with this, but like I think that we have an opportunity here to like start a ton of few turkeys where people actually need to use this to get

anything done. And I think that that was like the evolution process for where we are that like accelerate futur, accelerate the capital formation, get um accountability back into crypto. >> Yeah. I I had a hard time to be honest like understanding future key at first and I think like this is one of the reasons like metadow is not super big today like I think people hear future key and they're like what's the like this nerdy thing whereas I think if you place more focus on the token holder rights thing then it clicks with people or at least it did for me like when I understood like it enforces token holder rights that's when like it kind of made

sense to me when it was just about like this futur thing, it sound like too academic almost. Whereas if you like embedded like from the earlier stage of capital formation and you have a way to enforce those decisions that you can actually protect token holder rights, I think it would be cool like to tell the story of of mountain capital and how that worked out for for token holders because it really showcases like the power of of of metad. >> Yeah. Um yeah, like I mean I think like the cool thing is is you don't have to understand futur to be protected by it.

Uh you know like we're in this like which is weird for crypto and you know like I own stocks you you guys probably own stocks. How much do you guys participate in shareholder votes and shareholder meetings of like regular companies? And it's like in crypto, these people want to participate, which is cool, but then we run into like the same problems that we have with any of this stuff that like the uninformed user doesn't really have anything to to add and it's maybe more like noisy in crypto for a lot of this stuff because we debate whether $12,000 a month salary is is like too generous.

Um, which is fair, right? Uh, but like with Futur, you don't have to. You can own the token. You don't have to show up. And I think that that's like important. You you still have like these minority shareholder protections or token holder protections that are baked into the system just by holding the token. Um, yeah. And like Mountain Capital is one of those things that you did not have to show up to like vote on anything. If you just bought the ICO and then actively um like participate in the redemption right now, you had 57 cents a token and then now you have 60 cents a token that that was returned to you. Um but yeah, so Mountain Capital for everybody uh background was a liquid fund built on

the thesis of Mountain Dow, which is a a bi-anual or twice twice a year event that's held in Salt Lake City, Utah that gets Salana developers together and a lot of cool teams come through and the thesis there was we have preferential deal flow. we could start to cut like seed checks or angel checks, early stage checks and get preferential access here which like would work for future uh in my mind compared to like forecasting hey we want to do a like market buy where you could be front run for that stuff. Uh yes. So then uh it got garnered a lot of interest and had 5.7 million raised.

Uh unfortunately was not able to get any uh capital allocated into its like thesis. The only proposals that were successful was buying back the token up to its net asset value per token. So the token traded below the dollar value that was in the treasury. And at a certain point it continued to trade below that which creates a incentive mechanism for anybody that has bought the token below that to only want to unwind, right? Only wants to realize the the value in the treasury. Uh the attempt to buy back up to NAV uh yielded some profit in there and obviously the trading fees were

acred to the LP. Um, so that's what ended up you made some money if you just hel held the the mountain token. But the being unable to get capital deployed at some point then now everybody has the intensity to unwind it and this was the like fundamental question on when we talk about unruggable ICOs what do we mean and so in this case uh proposal was raised said hey let's redeem the treasury and in that case it was uh permissionlessly executed it unwound the LP it took a you know a swap program and it deposited US dollars or USDC and then accepts mountain token and then you get

a redemption for that. So that's how like that whole process to unwind a few turkey would work. >> Awesome. Uh I don't know if you guys want to chime in feel free but like another thing I wanted to discuss is just like this future key AMM that you're going to release like uh soonish. uh what does it mean like for the monetization of the protocol and like what are your like projections in terms of how much it could generate for metadata? >> Yeah. Uh you know I always say it's hard with the sample size of one to do any kind of projection with a lot of this stuff but um yeah like we fought for or we've thought fought with the idea for

revenue for a while um at Metadow. Obviously there's a lot of different things you could do. You could charge for setting up a organization. You could charge per proposal. You could charge on conditional markets. So we had a lot of like back and forth on where the best alignment was with a lot of this stuff. And ultimately came down to two options. One is with the fundraising platform obviously taking a carry or a cut of the total funds raised. We just thought that that was misaligned because you would be encouraged to only get people that are going to raise a lot more money or you want to churn through them a lot. Um, and I don't necessarily want to be a treasury company because like I don't want to like hold tokens and have people

that hold high opinions about these tokens and what you should do with them. Um but then like in protocol where could we charge fees and the you know like the swap on top of the AMM we would have to do something with Radium or with Jupiter with uh or sorry with Meteora to do anything with that. And we have a unique problem that like we need liquidity for these proposals to be traded. And the deeper liquidity, the better we feel about how like proposals can be traded because, you know, if you put $2,000 into a proposal, you can swing that dollar value a lot um for people and people can't trade with size uh on opinion. And so yeah, so we built an AMM

that lets you put the conditional markets and tradings for proposals and the spot liquidity and it borrows from the spot liquidity anytime a proposal is created and self- arbitragees. So for those that aren't familiar, uh you have a pass and fail market. Those pass and fail markets ultimately resolve back down to the original assets once a proposal is over. whichever one succeeds and so there's an arbitrage based on the likelihood of how much like how likely pass is to succeed for example so if pass is trading above spot then you can set you can buy spot and you can sell into pass and you can make some money um

which is cool but you know it's not great for a trader it's not great with AMM so this self arbitragees it keeps the spot in line with the conditional markets but importantly it gives us a path towards revenue because Now there's a reason to have this. There's a reason it's not just a uni v1 mechanism, you know, like there there there's some science and understanding behind it. Um, so yeah, like we we put in a at current 25 basis points fee uh paid to metad and then a 25 basis points fee that's paid to the LP. Um, which are all things that can be changed later. And if you look at the total liquidity or sorry the total trade volume of Mountain Capital and

Omni Pair in the past I mean since April is when I look back I think we're sitting at um over 60 million in total trade volume. So you can back that out. I think it's like 150,000 in revenue that would have been acred to metadata. And that's just me looking at like bird eyes API so I don't have a great thing. Um so yeah like it it'll be interesting to see obviously proposal volume gets calculated into that uh as well and we haven't had any proposals for omni pair at this point. So it'll be it'll be interesting. Uh, I'm like curious to see how many we can get out

there and then like how many decisions actually need to be made for a lot of these companies because it could be that like you just need to raise money and you need to be accountable for that those funds and you may not need to make a decision except for once a year. Yeah, I was hanging out in the Omniper Discord and like they were uh like Raka was telling like in the chat that uh the current monthly spend spend rate is like 10k per month. I I think there's a possibility that the f that the first proposal is just uh to raise that to a higher figure uh because they're a team of four. So if you have like 10k like it's kind of hard to like pay everyone but yeah um one of the interesting things I found about like ICOs on

Metadow is that it actually gives you venture style return possibilities and what I mean by that is like if you look at other platforms I love to get everyone's stakes is that like usually when ICOs take place it's already at six figure valuations like look at plasma like it gave you like a really good return but it's like it was already at like I I think 500 mil uh fully duted valuation. Um you can have like other examples Athena 300 million like Mega E six figures uh double zero I think it was like 750 million whereas with metadal you kind of have this really

good opportunity to actually have like a venture style return because it's like $1 million like fully diluted valuation out of the gate. But the problem with that is also that like a lot of retail founders or retail investors sorry are putting money into these things and like venture st like venture capital is really hard right so like if you just put like into one like there's a real chance that you're not like going to make that return like from my understanding like the optimal BC strategy is to just do a bunch of these and then one of them like a 100x or whatnot.

I don't know if Colin can speak on the optimal VC strategy out of Colin. Can you speak on it because of your position or? >> Yeah, I mean like I can I you know like the the the thing the thing that we were optimizing for was founders first because you need to get somebody to launch on this and then you know like it it appears that the investor appetite is there right like Omnipair raised 3.3 times the amount that he wanted to raise. We will see with these other ones like I you know we we have obviously more attention turned to us at this point but we also have more coming out.

So will people be reserved because they like another one or they have some expertise in that? But I don't disagree with that. I think that the approach is early stage. Uh you're probably looking at like founders and you're probably hyper spec like hyperfocused on your specific vertical, right? like if you know DeFi or you know DENE, you know, you're looking for these people and maybe you're pushing these people to the to to the platform to to raise. Um yeah, like I mean I've seen it across the board with different ethos values, different areas of interest, expertise.

I that's what's cool for me is that like I'm not a venture VC investor. I'm not an early stage. I'm not an angel investor. And you know, like why was I the one gating and making a call on any of these teams? I think the market should go out there. And I think a lot of founders, you know, like with sharing the risk of this, like if if you're a founder and you need to raise 100K to prove concept and then you're going to go out and use it like we have to raise a seed round. um you know like that could be very interesting and you will get a lot of people that think they can support and like carry this company to that that level. Um but I yeah like in discussing

with people I think it is kind of like well we may just invest in a hundred of these things because you know one of them is going to hit and I think the other very interesting thing is if they don't hit you may be able to wind these down much faster than like playing it safe like building into this like well we need to go raise again and find out you can't raise again right like like a Somebody can bring up a proposal and say, "Listen, let's redeem the treasury." Like they are not competitive. They have been working for three months. Yes, they've spent a quarter of the total funds, but like we can actually return on our capital at this point and not have lost everything.

And I think that that will be interesting. And I think you will also have non-genuine founders that come out try to raise from this at most can spend one6th of their minimum target but I think people will like target uh these these organizations that trade below their net asset value and they'll come and they'll liquidate and so I think I think it'll be interesting. I think we will start to focus on now that founders are coming in now how do we you know attune investors and like what are what are the platforms and features we got to build there I've had ask access or I've had asks of like can we get a data room uh set up can I get account only set up so I can talk to these founders so like

people are doing their due diligence it's just like this whole like system probably emerges around it and then you know like maybe people do have these like inside groups and like we're gonna we're going to get in on this ICO and we're going to make sure that we support this founder compared to this other one. So I think it's quite interesting. >> What do you what do you say to I brought up this idea to uh to founders and um the immediate push back I get is complexity um im almost immediately in every case like what's when you have these conversations like what's your what's your what's your push back to that?

Yeah, I think you know futur is there for the worst case scenario and there's incredible alignment with investors uh like that are supporting you right and I think that that's the core differentiator I think people are using the frame of reference of like pump tokens or believe tokens or you know like you have these hu massive influx of people with opinions and expectations and from here I think that we will like a cater cater to a specific investor and then cater to a specific founder. Um, yeah, like I agree with that. I I agree.

If you can go raise North American venture capital dollars, it's probably easier for you to just go do that. I will say that I think that any token that uh is built out after that is going to be cut uh because you have like low float high FDV and I've talked to founders about this which is like really interesting because it's like hey we had a round we need a $125 million valuation and you go okay let's launch a token like that right where your your token supply is your FDV and the marginal buyer doesn't exist, right? Like there isn't a $125 million demand of your

token to be satiated. So that's why you have to go out and sell 2%. And so like there's a reason why this stuff exists the way that it is. But like I think that that is like not great. Like like you you will deal with that token overhang. And hopefully we have better examples moving forward. But uh yeah, like you will either have friction now or you will have it later. It just depends on like what you need to do and when. Uh I think you get a lot of cool support from Future Turkey where you can design tokconomics and you can have them broadly rejected. Um rather than like hey this is you know like we spent time on all of this and we're going to do it and then like your token price still goes down right like no matter how clever or creative you wanted

to be with it. So um yeah I I don't think that you ever lose complexity. It's just conservation and where it's offloaded ultimately uh for that. >> Yeah, it see it seems like when I think of like a team that would really benefit like that obviously very much benefits from participating this, it's anonymous globally distributed teams, right? Like you add like a lot of people like crypto is different. People want to stay an anonymous. There have been successful anonymous teams, but you know, an investor, you know, if they're if they're doing their job, they have to apply a higher discount rate to that.

And they and in their LP documents, they might not even be allowed to invest in anonymous teams or might be just like a policy. They don't do it. So, as like an insurance policy or to like minimize that risk of being rugged, frankly, um it seems like a great place for anonymous teams to, you know, talk to the market and raise capital. >> Yeah. And I think like incumbent like or or one teams where an incumbent exists within the ecosystem that has like a poor token design or a token that like is distressed, you could probably come in and be like this is just a better token and a better design and a better way to participate and a better way for you to like have access to all the

things that you want. Um and then higher risk ideas as well, right? Like so stuff that maybe traditional VC wouldn't touch. So, it's not just anonymous founders. It could be like why why you know like far-left ideas on this stuff on like how to get it out there and then like you know maybe maybe it's the ethos of crypto that these people will come and you will find a hundred people with $10,000 to raise and you have a million dollars to go build out that that vision. I think like funds too I think funds could be interesting where it's like you know they have a yield mandate and you know I think often capital allocation decisions like I think some funds when they you know perhaps stop generating

alpha they keep going uh they might even get investor capital but this is like the investors can decide you know when to shut down the fund or whatever return capital to investors. Yeah, I think it creates cool coordination solutions and with the legal structure behind it too. Uh, which is just something that people haven't touched for a variety of reasons, but it's important and yeah, like I I think you get a lot of now we still have to prove this all out, right? Like this still has to be like have a a chance in hell to be like validated, which is fine. I think that I'm willing to do that. I'm willing to

take like take that to court and figure this stuff out. Um, but yeah, like it does it presents some very unique scenarios, solves from some very unique things that are like crypto ccentric that you want in the time that you like want them and need them. And one of the like one of my favorite examples is Mango. uh when that stuff started to go down and unwind, you know, once you had 51% uh you know, like they had an agreement in place with the SEC and then they just go and you know the other half violates that agreement and then like everybody's contacted. How quickly can we get this into a future turkey because they have to buy everybody else out and you're

like you can't do that like at that stage. You have to have done it at the very beginning and I think that that's pretty cool. Yeah, speaking of cope earlier, um, have a lot by missing the recent move in metad a ton. >> I think this is the one he can't speak on. I'm not sure. There's one of them that he's not going to be able to speak on, but we're keep taking on the risks. Um, >> oh, I I have actually one more question.

Um this is um like I think metadata is like very crypto native and crypto aligned. Um what do you think about like like this seems like obviously like um like cipher punk people should be singing the praises of Mal of Metadow like I'm surprised that like Vitalic hasn't praised the project. It's it's it's ambitious and it's like to the ethos. I mean, what do you think about the what do you think about um you know, not not everyone that you would assume that's paying attention is paying attention? I don't know if you have any comments about that.

>> Yeah, I mean, I think like it's it's uh crypto is very interesting in that you have these low-level protocols, operation codes, and like you have gotten marketers around it, and then everybody champions a protocol. And it's kind of like it's one of those big like confounding and confusing things for me because could you imagine like if we had HTTP3 and R RPC like V3 and you're like you're like what what are we cheering about like who actually uses stuff? But I think there is like there's a lot of tribal mentality there. um you know like people people want to keep stuff in the same vertical because if they don't then it starts to like mess with thesis or

understanding of or canonicalization of stuff. I think that that's like certainly challenging. And then like exposure, right? Like I mean people have brought in the past like few days have brought me 10 things that I didn't even know existed in crypto or I remember the post from Zack XBT about paid Kos and I was like I've never seen one person on this list. So like I I think there's just so much that can be done and then on the fringes and a lot of stuff we're making noise right like we're talking with Robin Hansen. we've got him as an advisor, but like the these are also small circles in that. And so I think penetration into the the wider like mind share of crypto

and like the ethos of crypto that stuff has been like a moving goalpost in the past like few years as well. So like I don't know how you really shift into that like narrative except to be supported by your tribe that is going to go to bat for you to like make sure that it's known that like this is where you are and this is the stuff that you know uh yeah I mean that's that's probably my thesis on it. >> I mean one really cool thing um sorry Bob go ahead.

>> No go. Now I was going to mention like Colosseum is an investor in in Meta. I think they engaged like in an OTC transaction a while back. Um one one really cool thing would be like because they host these large hackathons, right? like they they should encourage in my opinion like the winners or of certain tracks like just to go raise the ICO and Metadow instead of like giving them money like in the traditional venture style fashion. I don't know like is that something like you would explore like that would be really cool like to benefit from that deal flow from hackathons.

I mean yeah obviously I mean like that's that's why we took a first stab at this like premine or initial team allocation is because we you know if you have raised money before you cannot use our platform ultimately right like like you cannot guarantee the investors the tokens or the equity that you promised because you now just transferred all your intellectual property to this Cayman's entity etc etc. Um, so like we built that in. Now it's price based, time based, which means that the investors had to will have to adhere to that as well. So I'm not sure if like they would have the appetite for that, but we're definitely trying to get in that direction um where we like move towards that where

I am, like I said, I'm not an accelerator. I'm not an early stage investor, but these guys are and they seem to have like this flow. Um, but yes, like we are in close communications with them to try to figure out how to make this work. We definitely hear the feedback from the founders there on like what we can do differently to make this stuff work for them. Um, and like someday I see a path that this all will work and maybe they they will continue to support and push us in that direction. But like the other interesting thing is some of these hackathon participants launch tokens in during like the hackathon right so it's like well could you just do that here you know like if you're going to do that

already um you know like does that create that place and then can coliseum effectively come in and create a proposal to say we'd like to invest in you and OTC some of your tokens. So I mean that stuff that stuff's really cool like and I you know coming back to Ryan's comment on like founders There's something really powerful of, you know, you don't come to me to talk to me on like what what I would accept as a raise or at like a valuation, right? You have to go to the market for that. And if if I was to reject you, like that looks bad on me as a founder.

Like I'm I'm confrontational for VCs or liquid funds. Whereas like if the market rejects you, you're like, well, you just didn't raise enough. you know, you weren't at a high enough premium for the market to accept it. So, I think there's something cool about that that the market makes sure you get a good deal get get a good deal on like your capital raises as well. >> Colin, before um before we have a little ad break um and then another section, I wanted to ask um guess one not metad related question. Um you said you've been um within cryp in crypto for 11 years now. Um a lot of cope. Um what would you say is the biggest scope that

you had? >> Oh like for me uh you know like I I think I would have I would have liked to push harder on like my Bitcoin investment in like 2014 when I started professionally. Like I I went out to go raise a fund for people and I got laughed out of like every accelerator I was in, every person I was talking to. Like I had strong conviction in it. Obviously I like that was where I determined I wanted to push my professional career. But um like people people were talking about it like it was but I think the thesis there was like it's gonna the conversation was also this is going to be illegal tomorrow,

right? Like this is going to be illegal. This cannot be legal. So yeah, like I think that's my biggest cope. Um, and I was young. Uh, so I ate my returns, right? So to pay rent, to pay to to pay for food, like yeah, I could have I could have really been well off for that. So I think that that's probably like my biggest hope. Uh, but it's also like my badge of honor. Like I've been through every major hack, uh, every major exploit and, you know, like have have gone through it. So, I know how I emotionally respond to that and it's created like I know what it's like to be in crypto and I think that there's something uh really cool about that. So, >> you said you started in 2014.

>> Yeah. >> Wow. >> Yeah. That's I mean that's I I can remember being um in college at the time and hearing professors be like, "Oh, the government will just shut it down." And I feel like I heard that for like the five years at like for five years after that >> or seven years after that probably. Um that's like just like that's a thing that um only recently stopped. The government will just shut it down. And to actually like to to be like for me personally to be younger and just to hear that over and over again and not like be an expert like oh yeah the government will shut it down >> that's what they usually do. Um >> yeah. Yeah.

>> Just to stick through that's wild. >> People were like uh should I buy Bitcoin now? I'm like it's $330. It's the highest it's ever been. But like but like uh you know you had Tim Draper that just bid 999 per token and everybody says he's insane. Uh so you know like I there should have been signs but you know if I if I was better capitalized at that point I think I'd be living a different life right now. And I think that that's that's a blessing and a curse because it made me want to like I I got attracted for crypto for a certain ethos and I stayed in it for a certain ethos and I've ultimately ended up at Metadow for it. So >> yeah, I mean you wouldn't if you had giga made it back then, you wouldn't

have done metadal and people >> we wouldn't be hanging out right now. That's very sad. >> Very good. Um Colin, thank you so much for coming on. This was really fun. Um before >> before we do the little um outbreak, do you wanna I mean everyone's quite familiar with Metad, but do you want to shill anything and say go check this site out, go check out our latest blog post etc.? >> Yeah. So like you know follow the the Twitter account which is Metadow project um that we'll have updates. Our next ICO is coming out very soon. We'll have a product update for that as well. Um so we're we're like listening to a lot of people. If you're a founder and you're

interested in raising in crypto and you want to do like cryptonative fundraising, come talk to me. If you're an investor and you're curious at all about this, I've sat down with everybody. I've run them through various different angles on how metadata works. I I will beat it into you until you understand it and I will do as many meetings as possible to make that happen. But yeah, like I you know, if you think any of this stuff is cool, uh I'm I'm available on Telegram, Colin_house, and you know, like on Twitter. So, I'm I'm happy to talk to everybody about this.

>> Perfect. Thank you so much. Um, and we'll make sure to post all of those in the show notes except for the Telegram because I feel like it'll get botted. But everything else will again Colin, thank you so much for coming on. >> Appreciate you guys. >> Cool project. >> Yeah, >> cool project. Cheap token. and they're like way too smart.

>> Yeah, guys, I wasn't lying about the ad break. Before I reach out to Dan Smith again and remind him to come on the pod, uh, thank you, Mark. Um, just wanted to give a quick shout out to both our sponsors, AFTOS and IGN Cloud. Um, with nearly $400 million in BTC assets on chain, supported by a secure, fast, and affordable move VM environment, Aptos has become the BTC 5 growth chain.

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Read the productive treasury report today by following the link in today's show notes. And we are back guys. cuz you can come back on. There we go. Ryan left. Ryan, come back. What were we chatting about? Cope. I'm going to kick this guy. He'll just join when he's back. Now, Carlos left. Jesus Christ. All right, Ryan, what are you what are we munching on? >> I had to get a quick bite.

>> Very good. Um >> I haven't eaten enough today. Yeah, cheap token. They had to do a split, right? It was like $862 and that split at one,000. >> They already did it. >> They had to do it. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Are you saying they already did it, Carlos? >> Because they did it. They've already split the token. >> It's been done. >> It's been done. Very good. I feel like it's kind of difficult to transition away from interview mode to regular mode. Is this something you guys are also feeling or you don't mind?

>> No, I don't mind. >> What's Jakob? I was surprised that you didn't say a single word, but you managed to do it. >> Yeah, to be honest, I haven't read the the report yet. So, from Carlos, I like checked it out. It's like 7,000 plus words right? So, as we can read, >> yeah, TLDDR, >> you know, it is interesting. It's like, >> yeah, it's like, how do you generate more interest in something like a metad?

Um, I think you got to put on top of it eventually, right? >> Dude, if Ryan could do it, he would put pers on everything. just like make everything go. How do you make it's like you know those guys who put the the subway surfers videos for Ryan that subway surfers is just gambling. If you can just put gambling on something they'll be focused on it and it's fair but >> it's our industry. >> I I do think that there's like I mean perch changes the the riskreward profile. So then you get this interesting like a bunch of retail folks really interested in the thing.

What do you guys think of the insider trading stuff with the DATs? >> Inevitable. Everyone saw it on the tape and um you know the SEC's much better at policing that than crypto things. I think a lot of people are going to learn that the hard way. Yeah, I think in crypto over the past however many years, you kind of got used to, oh, if I just like do a little bit of insider trading, no one's going to no one's going to mind. Um, I imagine it's more serious.

>> Oh, big time. I mean, >> yeah, jail time. >> So, you get inside of trade even a little bit. And even a little bit not allowed. >> Interesting. >> Interesting. >> The funny thing like in in regards to insider trading uh for crypto, what I've heard someone say is that it doesn't exist. They said like um cryptos are not securities. They're commodities. You can't insider trade like commodities.

Like a farmer can't insider trade wheat or you know cocoa beans. Um I I cannot confirm if that's true, but uh that's what I heard. >> Yeah, I don't know if that'll hold up in court. A >> and they're just farmers in crypto, too, right? >> Yeah. It's like the meme, you know, you go to the court and you're like, "Uh, your honor, my client thought that this was legal." That's the defense. Wait, >> but this is are is I guess you can't insider trade Bitcoin. That one is like a commodity. It's regulated by the CFTC.

No, I have no understanding of regulation. So, >> I'm stay away from this one. >> No, >> you can you can you can insider trade and do market manip manipulation on uh commodities for sure. >> Oh, Yakob is just wrong. I I mean I'm not I'm not a lawyer, but I think you can. Yeah, there's I mean there's certainly market manipulation in commodities that, you know, people get in trouble for. >> Okay, let's um let's move on because none of us are lawyers. Um plasma.

Anyone interested in that? Shall I pull up the chart? >> It's a bit It's a bit expensive. No. >> Wouldn't you say so? >> Why is it exp Shut up. It's not expensive. >> I mean, you nailed the You nailed the call. I You want to get your victory lap out of the way? >> Yeah, obviously. I want to get my victory lap out of the way. I want to do hours of it. I mean, I didn't even like I didn't even do Great. I just It was just to me it was obvious. I'm surprised that you guys weren't that interested in it. Well, I know why Ryan's not interested in it because he doesn't like stable coch. Carlos, you're not interested in it.

>> I mean, I think it's like I think their go-to market is really interesting. Um, like this dual track that you mentioned yesterday where they can have this payments as a loss leader and like kind of out compete Tron with local partnerships and then just like build out the DeFi side. I think like the AB stats that I shared yesterday are really interesting. Like plasma is already like the top chain for a in terms of uh deposits and borrows outside of Ethereum mainet. Um the the big question for me it's is that really sustainable once the incentives end? Uh but they they can like kind of like vampire attack

uh USDT sitting on Ethereum I think or at least the stable coins. I I think it would be really interesting to see if like uh stable sitting on app like just flow from Ethereum mainet to to plasma. >> Well, I mean I think that's the goal, right? Like um and this is the tweet. Wait, let me pull up the full image. I don't know why I'm losing like this. There we go. Um yesterday everything else was down. Ethereum was down three and a half%. Um AV3 deposits down from down uh what Jesus Christ is a millions Carlos or in billions? It's in millions.

>> This is in millions. Yeah. Um obviously like what some of the changes you see there like is due to price appreciate like price depreciation of Ethereum but like it's still interesting right like just one day and then you already the top chain outside of Ethereum mainet like 4% market share it's not bad at all. >> No it's not. But I agree with you. I mean it's a lot of they're giving out a lot of incentives. I think yesterday uh I don't I don't know what the a things are now. I can just pull this up really quickly, but um okay, like right now it is lending on USDT0 net lending um is 11%.

Um of which quite a bit is XPL incentives. I think majority of it is XPL incentives. Um and that's at tool bill TVL. So that's like a lot of I mean I think this one's just like a a shorter term opportunity and like a initial incentive program, but like you said, they're clearly trying to attack the Ethereum main chain at the moment and it is expensive to do that. It is expensive to try and siphon off liquidity from Why are you shaking your head, Ryan?

>> No, you're right. And if you're going to attack I think any chain, it's probably that one. Um I I do think though that the the the risk of payments as a loss leader is that I think >> payments are already like very low margin for any chain and there I don't think that there are a lot that there's a lot of DeFi capital that is also payments capital like the people who are using USDT for payments in Turkey and Argentina are not also the DeFi whales.

>> You don't know that. But yeah, I agree with you. >> No, they're they're it's Trafi, right? Like it's it's funds. it's institutions that are really moving around the and then obviously you have like your you know your cryptonative whales but um you know payments is already a very low cost for anyone anyway and it's not that popular of a blockchain use case so you know it's it I'm not saying that it's a bad strategy but just like I question how effective it's going to be.

Can we talk about Tron's $2 median fee? Like is that like a real like I don't understand like do people actually pay $2 in every TR transaction? >> So small caveat there with Tron there is the notion of um let's call it like free transactions or maybe a better framing is a sponsored transaction. Um so if you stake TRX the native token of Tron you receive like credits effectively u to cover the fees of gas and so very large stakers um can also delegate and send those credits to other addresses. Um so the median fee in this case is not always the amount that was actually paid

uh because of these credits. So we do need to account for that in there still from a data perspective. >> Yeah. Yeah. And like there are brokers that sit on top that are large ton stakers that just take care of you know crossber payments for like you know in like like Apac in Europe >> right so like a primary user of these are centralized exchanges right so everyone has talked about like oh centralized exchanges park a bunch of stables on Tron and nobody was really able to answer why but in my personal view this is a large reason why uh if you stake some Tron you can you know effectively um cover the cost of your transaction fees with these credits.

hits the risk of course you take is is holding and being exposed to Tron. Um although if you did that a couple years ago that ended up working quite well. >> Yeah. Um I wonder because um uh our Paulo holds a lot of Tron obviously so I wonder if he stakes this or like first to be >> you assume Paulo holds a lot of Tron, right? They have an other assets category that at the last uh attestation had it was about $4.4 billion, but they've never disclosed the breakdown of that $4.4 billion.

>> I mean, not Tether. I mean, Paulo personally probably holds a lot of Tron. >> Why? >> Gut reaction. I imagine he >> Okay, that's fine. >> Let's say I >> That's just what I was poking at. Let's say I imagine he holds a lot of Tron and if I was him I would be lending that out to get to make sure that I am getting zero fees on my primary dollar the digital dollar on all exchanges right like that would make sense that's a a more intricate way of solving that issue compared to the plasma version which is um they're going to give they're also going to do a credit

system but um it's like per account bas saying you can't use it. Do you guys are you guys familiar with the Ronin free gas system where it's like you can use it like three times a day and that's fine like per account. >> So I think that's like the approach that plasma is going to take where you can use it for it couple times a day or week or whatever. Um >> versus the broker systems kind of a sexier system. is um is the like plasma ronin thing is there any like uh like does every active address get that credit system or those like number of x number of free transactions because the obvious problem there is like all right let's say you know every like every address gets two credits or two free transactions like

okay if I need to do 10 transactions a day I'm just going to have 10 addresses >> yeah I think that's fine effectively transactions. It's for USDT, right? >> And just a token transition. >> The only reason that they want to block it is to prevent spam. I don't know how quickly you can um create an account or like create a million accounts, I guess, and then spam two transactions on them. And I don't know if that would up the Blasma infrastructure. Do you get what I'm trying to say? because like they don't actually care about that much. From my understanding, the amount of money that you make off of a like Ryan talked about the amount of money that you make off of stable coin transfers is minimal.

>> Um so the like you could technically make it fully free but >> yeah like having the select transaction I think is is interesting. What about like um you know if I deposit USDT into a like is that free or is it only transfers? Do you know? >> It's not. You didn't read my report. He didn't read my report. That's what I think they're going to well that's what they're going to make money on. Like their goal is to have two different businesses in my opinion. Um stable coin payments as one makes no money. Um DeFi as another one makes some money. Uh but we'll have to see how much money they make. I mean early days they should be fine. They're incentivizing quite

heavily. >> Makes sense. Dan, you're a rare guest on the pod. Can we can we have a private What have you been looking at these days? You don't do a lot of a lot of portfolio talk, a lot of token talk. >> No, I've really been consolidated in the majors for the most part from like a percentage basis. Um, so Bitcoin, ETH, Soul, hype. Um, and then bounced around for the beta chasing, right? So like, uh, I was late to repurchasing a lot of ETH. Um uh I initially faded the first wave of Tom Lee but fortunately made the smart decision and was like okay this is actually a trend um and repurchased and

then uh Zora went crazy during that time period. Um so saw that kind of forming was early there and then uh you know then the salonats came online. The question is like okay we saw ETH ETHATs come online men's ETH outperformance ETH beta outperformed on the alt side of things um it's logical to think the same thing was going to happen to Salana assets and we saw pump go to not 9 cents but 9/10 of a cent I believe it is um up to you know I think it's a nine10 billion FTB uh so it's nice to see that that similar move happened is pretty easy pattern matching I kind of think Q3 has really been on

easy mode from that perspective But then to your point, yeah, like after that I kind of like turned the brain off and you know I obviously as a Aster I don't even know how to say the thing like I haven't paid any attention to that. >> I think I have to hit a lot of people by surprise. I mean you had to be really online during then and I feel like >> I was on vacation that week too so it was like you know some of them you just got to throw your hands up. You're not going to hit them all. Um, and I can't remember who I think it might have been 0x Kyle. It was I think uh he was talking about this concept when Circle IPO launched and like he nailed that. Uh he was like you really only need to hit

like one or two things a year. Uh that you like need to be the first one in, the first one out, hit the bottom, hit the top, and like you've kind of made your year. Uh I think that's just like the right way to be thinking about things. Like if you've already nailed it all, you you generally start to risk to lose from there. Um, so like I don't know, kind of shutting the brain off and coasting. >> No, that makes sense. Um, what is this? Wait, Ryan, I also want you to take a stab at this. Why is um Soul underperforming so heavily these days? Why do you think that is?

>> Uh, like what's the time frame that you're talking about? >> Two months. >> Um, and then underperforming what like other majors like >> I mean hype is down 30%. past two weeks. I saw Yako crying the other day. Um, >> two months. >> So, like kind of a weird trade, right? It's or like a weird investment. It's historically led done really really well. Um, but feels like it never got that thing with that Ethereum did.

>> Yeah. So, on the one month, Soul ETH is up 15%. And if I zoom out to the two month approximately, what's that like the 26th? Uh the 6th of August. No, that's that's almost two months. That's still 8%. Let me zoom out. Hold on. Uh I need to go to July 26th. July. Okay, that's close enough. And then Soul Leaf is flat on the two-month time frame.

>> Soul Leaf is flat, man. that's not over outperforming. >> I mean, I think the that thing was is probably the first thing in the top of the list. Like, okay, I was actually tweeted about this today. Like, everyone knows Som Lee and it's like, "Wow, he did really well." But like, when you start to measure how well he did, it's remarkable. >> Um, he's going bar forbar with Sailor on trading volume, which is like a measure of attention, I think, sufficiently. And that that number is actually very important for his style of accumulation which is aggressive ATM issuance of new shares raise cash buy ETH. Uh you need trading volume to drip shares into. Um the reason why is what mechanically happens is like a buyer hits the order book and instead of selling buying their

share from a seller um it is actually coming as a new share hitting them. Um, and so on a percentage basis, you can't just like if there's $100 million of volume, you can't like replace all of those with new shares or else the price is going to go down. Um, so there's like a there is some percentage range that makes sense here without like, you know, aggressively dampening price. Uh, I think historically we've seen like roughly 10% or or lower um of of volume can be effectively issued against instead of uh purely matching in the order book. Um, and where was I going? Oh, yeah. On a trading volume basis, Bitmine BMR does 40% of all DAT trading volume.

>> They have accumulated 60% of all ETH and 10% of all crypto DAT treasury value. Um, so Micro Strategy is obviously the whale there. U, but 10% is like night and day bigger than the next largest. Um, let me pull up the actual leaderboard here. I think one of the the third largest treasury company is one of these uh yet to launch um Bitcoin companies or yet to fully launch like a lot of them have already accumulated Bitcoin but um they haven't completed their spa mergers.

Uh yeah so number three I'll share screen I guess >> please. Okay, you can bring it up on stage here. But number three is uh 21, which is like the Jack Mullers one. I think Tether is uh Oh, I just clicked. >> Uh I think Tether is involved in that one in some capacity. I think they're like participated in that initial raise. Um but yeah, so I mean you can see like $70 billion of Bitcoin held at Strategy, 10 billion dollars of Bitcoin and ETH held at Bitmine and then the next largest is this sort of unlaunched one uh or not officially live I guess is a better framing at five billion then even sharplink so the next ETH that has less

than about a third as large as Bitmine. So, I don't know. Tom Lee's dominance is like not to be understated. Um, and so his impact on ETH price, I think also is not to be understated. And these Solanodats, I promise this ties back to your question, but the Salonodats um you saw launch uh with actually really large pipes. Um, >> Bitmine and ESB both launched with like I forget the exact numbers now, but like between two and 400 million. Ford launched with 1.6 billion in cash uh and stable coins. Um, so that was all immediately deployed, but we haven't seen those like subsequent uh purchases.

And that's that's been like this Bitmine special. >> Wait, it wasn't 1.6 cash, was it? I thought it was in kindm all cash and stable coins. Uh, they're likely going to buy in kind like with the next or not, sorry, not buy in kind, but like buy at a discount from Treasury uh Salana Foundation at some point. Um, you know, that's a smart thing to do or just like lock other investors. Uh but obviously that doesn't necessarily have the same price impact as like just smashing the the open market. >> But no, the initial raise of 1.6 billion was all cash and stable coins. >> How much sold does of the foundation hold?

>> That's the million-dollar question. Um you know, with the token transparency effort, I would love to see the Salana team participate there. I think it's good for the industry. Um you know, all of the initial foundation wallets are actually in the GitHub repo. The problem is uh the early days of Slana are like non-trivial to navigate from a data perspective. Um and so yeah, I would love to see an updated and refreshed uh approach to transparency around every foundation, not just Salana, but Appto, every large chain. I think it's really important. Um so yeah, personally, I would love to see more of that.

Yeah, to to the point on um yeah, I think you know, Dan, I think to sum up what you're getting at on you know, why has performance happened over the last few months, I think it's it's we're very much in a flowsbased market. >> Um and I think I think that there are some things that folks underappreciate about like performance like so just like taking a step back like over the last quarter, Salana is up 26%. Uh, ETH is up 58%, Bitcoin's up 2%. So, both assets are outperforming Bitcoin, right? With Salana being the fastest horse. Um, and because really like what you're seeing is that Bitcoin has lost its monopoly on

trad flows both like structurally and then just like practically with all that DAT money coming in. >> Yeah. Though I do think like both Salana and ETH are both challenged from a growth perspective for different reasons which is also like leading to some token softness. So, Carlos put out a note maybe two or three months back if I remember correctly, Carlos, about um you know, new the Salana's new monetization method coming with BAM and how that's going to impact the amount of soul that you need to fit to pay fees and um so like on a perv volume basis, we expect soul uh sorry the the Salana network's

take to actually go down on a perv volume basis which it was quite high. It was like as high as 20 bips. It's fallen to five bips today. We actually think it's going to fall lower now. Like I think that, you know, the call there was, you know, short-term weakness in the price of soul because it's just not generating the economics that it was 24 or sorry, 12 months ago to sustain like this very big price, this very big market cap. And as a consequence, you're seeing its valuation expand. So if you look at like a long-term chart of the valuation on soul just like you know trailing 12 months like it's actually really increasing now because price is staying high but that like per unit monetization is going down.

Uh ETH's challenge for similar reasons um though not exactly like it's just really hard to use that chain and apps aren't building on it. Um there's a lot of capital there that does pay a nice dividend to ETH but it's not seeing growth. So, you know, they're they're both challenged, I think, short term from a monetization perspective. My question fundamentally is like, you know, what are they both doing to offset that lower revenue per unit of trading volume? Um, you know, Salana obviously has plans competing like in the per space, which are going to be really interesting to see going forward. Don't exactly know what ETH's doing.

>> I don't know what ETH's doing as well. I am doubtful that Solano will be able to compete in the per not because of hyperlquid but because I think now everybody wants to compete in the per landscape and it is very very difficult to be able to achieve that while you're a generalized chain. Um >> but I mean you never know right like they they very well could next week. I'm not very hopeful like they have to they missed it and they have to >> I think a really interesting implementation there and I have no idea how the risk engine would work here. I think that is probably hard question to answer but u some sort of per decks that uh could leverage the recent rise in like prop amms um those

work really well on Salana uh and it's been like this quasi order book approach where you do get some of this market making uh activity happening but in a different form than just your traditional clo uh that could be an interesting implementation again I have there's a lot of unanswered questions that I am not qualified to answer around how the hell a risk engine would work in that model and liquidations, etc. But, um, that could be an interesting thing. I don't know if anyone's building that, but if I saw one of those start to come online, like I would pay attention to that. Um, and then obviously GTO BAM's network is, you know, they're create enabling plugins that could potentially be really interesting for Purpex. But I broadly agree with Ryan, your point is like you got to that's that's definitely the area of opportunity going forward.

>> I think you're starting to see just one last thing. Sorry, Bach. I think you're starting to see um like success on getting like more proper trading on Salana. Um it it is dominated by memecoin volumes where people don't really care about spreads or liquidity. But if you take a look at like um on our DEX, I can show my I can share my screen quick at like DEX volume on Salana specifically for the Soul USDC and Soul um USDT pairs.

You get a um >> I'll pull it up, Brian. you just >> no you you get a really nice chart up and to the right right where like you know there's been a lot of chatter in Salana which like I didn't believe for a long time that like oh spreads are like only one or two basis points and like often competitive with Binance and I kind of was like yeah right um but for for you to see this like kind of up only activity from the sole USDC and USDT pairs in an environment where Salana activity is mostly flat this here. Um, that tells me like they're actually making, you know, proper trading actually work.

>> Yeah. >> Right. Which which is what you need to to to sustain that like ICM vision. So early innings, but I think like they're they're making progress. >> Yeah. Isn't Isn't the um Yakob Carlos guys please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this idea of a prop AMM that can be generalized across a bunch of other things just a V3 but each liquidity bin is the prop AMM itself? Does that make sense? Do you get what? Like because you can't make a prop amm an order book because then why not just use an RF?

>> But in like a weird way like a cluster of prop amms is like quasi order book, right? You're like they're all individuals but to the user maybe they aggregate together when like you're an aggregator routes your trade. Um it's definitely not one to one, but there there's some similarities I think to be had there. Just on the per side of things again like trading trading works fine. I just don't know how you would like liquidate and manage positions. >> I'm pretty sure propm just get data from Binance Oracle but at like different intervals. So I don't I'm just saying >> I mean there's definitely different strategies being run and you can see that in the data because you see how frequently they're updating their oracles um and the uh frequency that like the price that they

update to actually change is not one to one. So, but >> then the most boring or basic case, yes, they're just hitting Binance Mid and like that's the execution and they apply some spread to that. Uh, but in the more interesting case, you're running some complex market making strategy where the, you know, I'm not a market maker. I don't know what those strategies look like in practice, but um, yeah, I think I think there's way more interesting designs to be had, >> but you can't get price discovery on that. which is I think the main thing for an order book like because the whole like I don't know what the XPL hyperlid volume is right now but XPL launched at the price that Hyperlid was at or like a

little bit above but like or whatever hyperlas OKX they set that price right but you can never be the first to launch like if I'm if I'm running a propm I can't launch a pre-market I'm I mean I guess I could I could do what Hyperlquid does with like their oracle and it's like some average of the past 30 minutes on price, but then it also doesn't work because you're just making up numbers. There's no bids or asks. So >> yeah, I see >> quite a critical I I mean imagine how much volume Hyperl gets just based off of that price discovery. So it's like it's very significant. But I I'm I'm not saying anything against like prop AMMs are not

very good because they are like the moment that like as good of that pricing you can get for the average user or for the sex arbitrageers or whoever's >> swapping. You're avoiding the sex arbitrageers. Those are the people trying to pick you off. >> Okay. Whatever. like whatever is like very good, but >> you're never getting price discovery, which is not like you're missing out on that initial like whatever% of trading and that first user for you to come to that will come to you. And does this make sense? I'm just rambling a bit, but like Carlos is shaking his head, so I'm just keeping going, but I think it makes sense. No, I think it makes sense because how prop ammms work

like just conceptually is like they can push oracle prices like a lot quicker than a traditional tax and those oracle prices have to come from somewhere, right? So yeah, like I think you're right in the sense that they're not really pushing price discovery, but they're kind of like the first ones updating the price on chain, if that makes sense. Uh, so yeah, not technical enough to know that, but yeah, I think you're right. >> Yeah, again, I yeah, I like this is a great question to ask people running propm. Um, but like in I don't know like intuitively I think I agree, but the logic you use to determine the price you execute at is arbitrary, right? So like I I don't I don't ne I don't know. I

don't have an answer. I think you could be right, but I can't confirm nor deny. Okay, we can end it there where Dan said that I am right or we can speak a bit more. What do we want? >> Well, I mean I think the the most important like just zooming out prop AMMs were like 2 to 5% of total Salana Dex volume a year ago and now they are 41% on the monthly and like 58% on the daily. Okay, definitely very impressive. But Ryan, you always talk about this.

What's the thing that you want on your chain? You want asset issuance and you want attention on your chain. You want to have the assets that are traded first. Salana has that with meme coins 100%. It's the it's the chain for memecoin trading. But if there is no proper club, there can be no price discovery on Solana and therefore it can never have like the initial like I've been talking about this for months is listings listings. Jesus listings listings listings for these clubs. Um like that's all that matters and Salana just can't get it right. I would probably I mean I'm there's a bunching now, right? Like there's Bulk Trade, there's Bullet who have rebranded now. Um, used to be what? Not Zeta. Was

it Zeta before? >> It was Zeta. Yeah, but that's also like an L2. So, it's not really on Salana. >> Yeah, bolt trade's also an L2, right? >> I don't I actually don't know their architecture. But I don't >> I don't understand your point, Buck. >> My point is that propm are great, but they're not clubs. So I would if I'm Solana I want to focus on hubs because you already have prop amms are great for soul USCT soul USC um memecoins are great but you still want to compete in the co-op space. Um and prop amm just can't make that up. It can get people better fills than an typical AMM but >> can't get listings. Um

that's my point. Is that okay? >> Maybe one last thing on the prop amn uh topic is one thing that I find really interesting is just like what's going on on top of that which is the routing wars between like Jupiter DLO Titan etc. I think like Jupiter generally has like it's in the worst position it has ever been in terms of like competition and I think like Dflow and Titan have a real shot at uh taking order flow away from them. I don't know if you guys have paid attention to that but like Dflow just released like a new like just in time um

routing algorithm and then Titan also released mainet and they've been doing great like in terms of uh taking more more and more volume. So I think that's interesting. >> Dan, I would love to get um I think you're probably connected to these guys a lot. Well, I'm not connected to them at all. So you're definitely more connected than I am. um anybody from the propm side um just like talk to them a bit about the challen I obviously they're not going to want to talk too much publicly um although I did see Titan go on light speed I don't know how closely they >> yeah it's definitely a challenge because you know how often do you get market makers to tell the world their strategies

>> I don't want to yeah >> I know I know but that's that is at the crux of like this entire conversation right it's like what they can do is their margin And the the thing with these guys, I find that people who want to come on the pot typically have something to not something to sell, but like they have a product that they want to advertise. Um, versus I think a lot of the guys running the strategies typically um like it's hard to scale a market maker strategy and if you already have one going, you don't need you don't need to like publicize it and advertise it. So, it's tough. Um, hence why I also can't have you on because you don't want to advertise anything. You've already made it. You just want to come on every once in a while.

>> Made it. Yeah, I wish. Um, no, Maiden is Blockworks data flipping Bloomberg. I don't know. >> Okay, very good. Um, >> yeah, job's not finished. Bako, walk in. >> Very good. Uh, anything you want to say before I end it? >> Okay, we're What are the What are the farming yields on plasma? I'm super late, but again, good. >> Kind of been locked in on the product.

Um, need to zoom out into into making money again. >> Uh, let me show you these. They are pretty good. I mean, I'm in Oh, we are not there. There we go. So, I I'm in this like plasma USD thing. If you keep holding it, it's at 20% on 2.7 bill, which is ridiculous. Yielding out 1.4 four mil a day. Um, >> now we're talking >> USDT zero on a net lending just like if anybody's listening and wants to deposit into this, first of all, this is not financial advice, but second of all, you need to not have any debt if you're so you can't loop on A. If you loop on A, you do not get the the the rewards um

the incentivized rewards. I think >> this page is giving me flashback to like doesn't this look uh nearly identical to like some 2021 Dow forums just the structure and style? >> Yeah, it looks like the um the Discords the >> exact think of the word. That's exactly what it looks like. >> Yeah. Um no, but they have really great yields. Um especially on A 11% just for lending out is pretty good. >> Um >> it's great. Uh let's see how long it lasts for. I hope it lasts for a long time. Um but would recommend you check it out. And then before I end it, I need to do three things. I would like to thank Aptos and

Ion Cloud and I >> you I think you unplugged your mic. >> Can you hear me now? >> Yes, I can. I would like to thank Appdas and IGEN Cloud for sponsoring the stream. Um, and I would like to thank you all for coming to chat with me, especially Ryan Garner who had left once again. >> It's an honor and a pleasure. [Music]