Making Sense of the Current Trends in Crypto | Analyst Round Table

Transcript

one of the interesting things about telegram is that you know the US is their not their least used country but I mean compared to other social media like I mean telegram's presence here is essentially just crypto people and that's it but it's massive in other parts of the world so it's one of those things that I just want to keep an eye on because with that distribution and that amount of users it's not something that I think you can kind of it could very easily you know just spark a fire overnight and explode compared to you know gradual growth that you know steady growth month over month that you can see before we get into today's episode just a quick disclaimer the views expressed on this podcast by either myself or any guests are their personal

views and do not represent the views of any Associated organization nothing in this episode should be construed or relied upon as Financial technical tax legal or other advice all right let's jump into the episode what's up guys welcome back to another episode of ZX research I'm joined by talks from page one and C from Park before we get started even though you just heard Ren give our disclosures I just wanted to highlight that especially in these types of episodes where I'm hosting external analysts Market participants anons Etc we're talking about coins and protocols that may be more out on the risk curve than we usually do um make sure to keep that in mind nothing is ever Financial legal business or tax advice on this show and but specifically for these episodes we're discussing products more out on the risk curve and that is something to be especially cognizant of

before we get started um talks we've already heard all about you kez do you want to give a very short introduction as well as some background on how we got started in the space yeah JM JM thanks for having us um yeah my name's kez I work for parac finance um my how I got started I originally bought the top in 2017 I feel that this classic story forgot about it um and then just got back into it in 2021 that's pretty good that's like top in 2017 is quite impressive to be fair because you've been in for a while I feel like usually when I talk to other people they're like oh I about to top in like 2021 and then I yeah I feel like a lot of people a lot of people do that buy the top their first cycle and then just kind of either

completely forget about it or you know just take a pretty chill um until the next cycle yeah um all right what are we looking at these days what are you guys interested in what is like the sector that you're focused on I think for me and I think that the market at large is you know we're kind of just coiling under alltime highs right now with the inflows this week have just been absolutely ludicrous we're sitting at um just shy of one and a half billion of inflows this week so far with uh gbtc getting some positive inflows as well and uh no outflows from then this week too um so I think that's top of mind for for everybody right now obviously with the BTC inflows uh BTC eth BTC that's

top of mind for everybody as well obviously with the E ETF being the the next likely rotation um we're seeing at least this week it's kind of uh after that candle last week we've kind of s out a little bit and I think that the market I mean I'm sure you guys see on on the TL it's uh it's pretty funny you can kind of gauge what ebtc is at by the state of the TL and how arguing yeah um so that's obviously the the number one top of Mind there I mean the inflows this week are just I mean they're they're pretty ludicrous so I think a lot of that comes on the back of uh all the political the well the major political shift we saw over the past week two weeks um so we'll keep monitoring the flows but I think one of

the main questions is kind of like why aren't we higher and I haven't really seen a good necessarily explanation for that um there's yeah there's some people speculating about the the basis trade and maybe you know you long uh is it long the um uh B short the part yeah yeah so I don't know I mean I've seen a few people mention that and it doesn't really seem like there's a lot of conclusive evidence um we have seen pretty large selling above 70k um every time now so I think the fact that we're sitting above 70k kind of right at 71 just hanging out there is a good kind of

a good relative strength from from the market compared to you know back down below it because the selling above 70k for whatever reason whatever entity has been pretty ridiculous every time now I think we've been what four times yeah I mean yeah this is a four top yeah I mean I don't even know who's selling at this point like above 70k it's like but they're like relentlessly doing it um I actually check the INF like I usually don't check infos at all I'm generally not interested in them um but like apart from knowing like oh it's positive it's good it's negative it's bad but like I checked and on the fourth we had like 900 mil of inflows net inflows which is ridiculous yeah it was a

886 million I think and I mean I'm generally with you that and especially the longer that the flows go on like the market was pretty reactive when the ETFs first launched but I mean the longer they're live like the less the the inflows and outflows kind of matter in my mind um as long as it's not in how the market reacts like when when it was first started trading the market would fully re act to like strong positive inflows or or negative bonds and these days it just doesn't even have any effect but yeah the last few days have been Lous and um I don't know like uh we've talked about a bit toes I refuse to be bearish regardless of what's Happening Here we're just like

just chilling under 70k for like the the fourth time but yes I would like to I would also like to know why um you know 1.5 bill inflows in a few days is not pushing us higher than it is what do you guys think of the E ETF with this like when it comes do you because to me it's very obviously a bull like something that's bullish but like every single thing that good that good that happens on in in crypto like CT has somehow managed to say oh actually this might be bad um which me seems ridiculous but I like yeah they're like oh like will be disappointing okay cares it still flows

like yeah I feel like I'm starting to realize especially now with like the fact that we have actual sizable um institutional flows coming into crypto now that it's it's just like an echo chamber of the same you know I don't know how many people um kind of just forming their own opinions but it by and large doesn't really have a huge effect on what is actually happening especially with Mages you know yeah more more so with the the low ones yeah I think um that was I don't remember if I tweeted something about that a couple weeks ago or not but I think the the kind of like Echo chamber and influence of crypto Twitter at least on Majors like you said cuz like I don't

think it's ever been as irrelevant of the flows in the um and the TR five money coming in like it's just I mean one and a half billion this week alone so far three days is I mean those are just they're ludicrous numbers so yeah wild won tra me yeah exactly but yeah I mean previous Cycles like you know sentiment and stuff like those gauges were I don't know they were pretty valuable and obviously they're still valuable now um but I think like the general CT consensus for majors and I mean Majors Drive everything um like I said it's it's kind of been it's its least impactful as it's it's ever been

and that's something that I think the the market and the participants are especially on CT you're kind of slowly waking up to a little bit and I don't think they're necessarily where they should be um and accepting that fact but that's nature of the game when you have you know hundreds of millions shoved in every day yeah yeah yeah I I almost don't even want to talk about it because it is just like the Hot Topic on on Twitter at the moment but like it's it's pretty wild how miserable everyone is and how like just the infighting and you know you say every day on Twitter when we are where we are if you just take a step back and kind of look at the look at the charts I mean BTC is sitting at 71k but yeah it's it's fascinating um but yeah as far as the E ETF goes I mean

I'm expecting still I think probably late June first week of July launch um until we get some news that that would change that that's kind of my my base case for now um and I mean like we just talked about like you know people can make up whatever you know stories they want about it but it's it's ridiculously bullish over I mean short mid and and long term in my eyes so I mean we'll have some eth e to to chew through just like we did with gbtc um but I mean open up the the floodgates to the flows that we've seen to BTC are just I mean there's going to be a more of a repricing soon I think and I think that's kind of what a lot of

people are confused by as well is why eth BTC has been weak this week um but yeah I mean I would think that that changes at some point in the near future yeah I hope so I think if it gets any worse like sentiments going to go horrible the thing is that like I was on CT when BTC was 20K and below and it wasn't this bad like obviously like people were very like sad and depressed but it wasn't at least like people were vitalic wasn't arguing on the timeline is it you know like I don't know but fascinating yeah I generally agree like apart from BTC inflows e inflows like we also have like Canada just announced that they're going

to cut rates um we have Kramer asking gendler about the on live TV it's like I don't know it feels unreal to be crying on the timeline um yeah it's a wild time that's for sure but I mean it's yeah I I don't know how to interpret anything other than you know up from here so and with eth specifically I mean the flows what's interesting about the projections I think generally the market is expecting like 20% of BTC flows like total but that 20% was a lot lower before this week and obviously you know you can't a three-day sample but the you

know if you're getting 20% of say a billion in a week even 700 million like that's a lot different than you know four to 500 million especially with eth's market cap obviously being uh being much less so I mean I mean the impact is going to be if the demand is 20% of what we've seen and I mean I would maybe take the over on that um there's just going to be I mean there's a natural repricing coming so yeah totally and also you know 30% of eight locked up in um staking as well um yeah I agree it's pry it's pretty hyper bullish just waiting just waiting the um charts and crypto Twitter just feel a

little bit in limo at the moment everyone's just kind of waiting for something to happen yeah we should get uh some S1 I think the S1 uh submissions and feedback from the SEC should maybe be um today or tomorrow early next week and I think that'll that'll finally crystallize the the next eth move so yeah one thing I feel like is kind of affecting it is because when the BTC stuff was originally announced like the ETF it I think trading happened relatively quicker or at least maybe it just got like clarified a lot quicker that there would be this but I feel like with e we just didn't receive that much news yeah I think talked about for a long time with Bitcoin and like eth was like you know the odds were 20% up until

like a few days before it happened so you had this rapid repricing and kind of all the news came out at once but yeah you're right we haven't had the um s1s and whatnot since yeah the timing that timing makes it makes it a little difficult I mean the BTC ETFs I think we're live two weeks maybe even less than that actually I think it was the next Monday I think it was approved on that was Thursday right and I think it was the next Monday so I mean that that could be it I mean there's I don't know I guess there's necessarily not reason to to force a trade and once you have official Clarity but um yeah I'm surprised we haven't seen a little more front running but I I think it'll come any any day now so and to me e is like a it's a better like if

I was trafy I would be more interested in E than BTC like obviously BTC has store of value digital money it's the original uh cryptocurrency but like eeve has the whole staking thing it's like I just think that trfi is a lot more interested in something that's both yield bearing and like it can CL it as like the internet of money or whatever like of that sort so yeah seen some takes on the timeline in which people are kind of uh supposing that potentially this was kind of endgame for Larry the whole time because you know's there the whole tokenization like tokenizing the world um thesis and that you know maybe the getting the BTC

ETF 3 was just to kind of get to eth in the end but we'll see yeah um apart from ETF news I feel like two big things that happened I think yesterday let's let's start like as soon as possible like what happened very very recently we had sanctum announced their token cloud and we had prime launch staking like um I don't know if either of you guys want to cover any of those but I can start off with giving like a short intro on sanctum um basically sanctum does lscs in case our listeners aren't familiar they do lstd products on Solana they have two separate products they do

either bespoke lsds for validator so like helas runs a validator and they can launch their own LSD through sanctum or they do kind of like a onetoone liquidity um pool and swapping for lsds so they have their own LSD called Infinity which is backed by a bunch of other lsds and it makes it easy to trade they use like a new pricing system based on stake accounts and like directly the chain instead of like X YK um they announced their token Cloud as I mentioned um I think the most interesting thing here is that they're going to launch at 50 mil FTV on yeah that's a pretty key point isn't it

that just seems stupidly tap for what it is with kind of no competitors as well or very little at least on salana um but yeah they they're launching at the FTV of what they raised their first round at back in 2021 which is uh even that is just like a very kind of a sign of good faith isn't it um but yeah they did a very long tweet and blog posts um it's it seems very well thought out they seem well intentioned and they they kind of just overall seem like they know what they're doing with this token launch it definitely feels like slated to be one of the better airdrop token launches that we've seen as of late yeah I mean Solana tokens have also just been

like in this weird SP where it's like okay let's say for example Camino Camino is very key architecture on like key infrastructure on Solana it's the number one lending yield app whatever but it's at 500 mil that's quite a bit but it's also not a lot based on what even that feels to to me for like what it does and like like it doesn't have like 250 mil tvl or something no it has like 1.5 Bill oh well yeah yeah right no but that's what I mean but also the other issue here is that people don't care about Solana defi at all yeah you know it's like just uninterested but I mean 50 mil

FTV it might be like we have a couple of guys on the team and they were just talking about it and they were like everything on Solana launches either at 10 Bill like Wormhole and stuff or it launches at like 500 mil where the upside is either there's no upside you're just going to see like steady selling and you see those messages on telegram that's like oh new sell for Wormhole OTC 60% discount or it's like 500 what are you gonna get on that like for Camino people aren't interested in D5 but 50 mil and I like like you said cuz I like that paragraph that he wrote I mean he took like he definitely knows how to do a Nar like narrative he was like oh we did it on purpose so that like we're not like the other guys funded by VCS and we

against sex listings and stuff like he's really playing to the populist um yeah crowd I think it's good I think it's interesting yeah yeah I agree I'm excited for sure um me and toes I know about you but we've been farming it for a while now um yeah and also just using it like even before they announced Wonderland I think we we had deposited into like in and Jupe soul and stuff yeah I mean everything about their launches is just awesome too I mean you know you can say some of you know the no sex fees and um you know no VCS like some of that can be lip service or whatever but I mean they backed it up with obviously the the 50 mil it'll be

you know a fair launch on on a DEX like that valuation is incredibly friendly to to retail and average Market participants and then I mean 18% float at launch with 10% of that being air dropped is is just awesome so um I I really hope that other teams I mean I hope sanctum launch goes goes great because I hope that other teams take a page out of their their notebook I mean they specifically singled out that you know they could do a season two and keep tvl and then use those metrics to raise it a higher valuation and you know kind of like the the points game that we've all come to know and that's become tiresome and it was incredibly refreshing to see a protocol acknowledge you know that's what's happening amen

and we're not doing that um was that are they the first in like a hot minute to kind of cut that short instead of like you know just running it forever oh yeah yeah definitely I mean I didn't really even end dat in mind necessarily but you know when that came out yesterday I was I was very pleasantly surprised so um yeah I did not expect it that fast it was six weeks they ran Wonderland for six weeks like you know teams do four months they do six months they do a year like I think blur in total was like a year in the end before I can't remember if it was season 2 or maybe season two ended or something but yeah definitely incredibly refreshing agree yeah margin fight has been going on for like a year and they they keep

saying we're not gonna have a token and I'm gonna start believing them if they keep saying it and they because I'm just gonna give up um yeah I think like like you said talks I hope that other teams take note and realize that I mean I hope it goes right so that other teams can take note and realize that they should be doing a bit better of a job I'm doubtful though the incent like I the incentives just don't align at all it doesn't make any sense um yeah I mean the the incentives are the problem there but I mean it's I don't know I mean it's it's a two-sided thing too you have to obviously they um I don't remember exactly who their first backers were what the terms were and whatnot but I

mean it there's a little bit of of onus on on the VCS and stuff too to I mean obviously they want stuff to get liquid sooner but um um you know I mean tvl and and these metrics in general like you can prop them up for for however long you want but if you really truly want to you know build something make a difference stick around like you're not going to find that out without going to Market without the incentives for the market to be there so the quicker that you can learn that is also incredibly beneficial to all parties involved because you know if there's pivot pivots necessary if there's you know tweaks that that need to be made things along those lines like you find that out

quicker too so it's it's definitely kind of beneficial all around um like you said bu I mean the the incentives are a little tough for if you want to keep you know keep the tvl in there and then raise it at higher valuations um but hopefully we see we see a shift going towards more what sanctum did yeah I think um like he he even wrote in that in that tweet thread like we fully expect TBL to you know have a significant drop after um after this um but I think that's so brave and like you said I think you need to let something fly if you're going to kind of play the long game on it like eventually the incentives run out for both PCS and like you know your users and um yeah

it's got to either fly or fall once that happens so why not do it earlier if you have a successful product yeah sanctums also kind of Lucky though because they like they're the only ones that do that product um I do see like if you're lending product why you need tvl for much longer and you can't really take that risk because like just let's say Camino and margin fi like at the end of the day okay Camino has their own yield product margin fi has their own LSD whatever but they're the same like in this they're the same segment they're lending um so if margin fi needs to keep up TBL for longer they like have to technically like do or they should

shouldn't I don't want them to but they have to overdo the points program so that they can keep up the TBL because there's a very successful alternative I mean with um sanctum there isn't like where else are you g to go if you want to get like the best technically the best price at what it is for like to swap your lsds then you have to use sanctum there's no other competitor yeah I mean yeah that's fair I mean I guess I would say like I like I said I mean there's there's benefits to to launch into too and the fact that you know you get feedback and you see what is what is real and what's not I mean I think you know you run programs for points programs for so long and you have um inflated tvl like you know if you're

going on six months nine months 12 months like you might start convincing yourself that you know the protocol and what you build is is better than than what it is and those numbers are are real so I mean it can it can get a little tricky but yeah I mean are they're they're definitely tough so I mean I I get it from both sides but I think at the end of the day what again like what sanctum did was was incredibly incredibly refreshing um and hopefully we see a little bit more of that going forward all right um the second thing was Prime Prime's the token for Echelon Prime which has a tradeing card game everybody's familiar with that they're also launching a new game called parallel Colony with AI agents and like a simulation think like Sims space

colonization and AI agents instead of the like instead of you controlling it your Sims your it's an AI agent you talk to it you say do this do that for the AI agent they need to have a AI agent framework called wayfinder which will have its own token called prompt the only like and what happened yesterday is they launched uh Prime staking for prompt so you stake Prime you prime stakers earn 45% of the Native token for wayfinder prompt um the only reason I wanted to actually bring this up is like everybody knew about this months going in that there going to have this it's been on the forums for a while but I think this is the first like I guess popular experience of like launching the staking

product and giving people the option to lock for fre years and I never lock for fre years but I've seen people lock for fre years so I want to like understand how you guys think of locking up stuff are you lockers or like are you like minimum locking I don't care I want to be as liquid as possible I I think uh like what KZ said at the intro you know everybody kind of buys a top I think almost everybody also kind of locks a token and then regrets it of it yeah it's kind it's kind of a r of Passage um but yeah personally no I mean that's that's not for me at all um I think genuinely or generally people discount liquidity more than than they

ever should and that should always kind of be Paramount so that's kind of where where I stand on that yeah I I've never I can't even think of a time that I have locked um I'm definitely not a locker um but I remember boss saying his what was it last cycle um some gaming thing anyway that if you do lock for an extended amount of time like you'll slowly learn that you've pretty much just rated whatever the current value of that is to zero because you know you have so much time left I think he roundt tripped a pretty big bag on um what was it he was talking about the other day def5 kingom had a locked in there there's a bunch of people locked in that I think

but it's crypto Valley's had it recently is that it no no this was last cycle it's like a bit more of a mainstream one anyway I don't um generally you remember when they were clowning that kid like that 17-year-old kid who sold 900,000 dfk top yeah that's exactly where my mind went that was so funny um my second question related to this the reason that I brought this up is that I've been doing a lot of research on AI agents um I don't know if they're real yet we'll find out soon enough but I feel like there are no good AI agent tokens out

there like there are limited good AI tokens out there but no good AI agent to I don't know if you guys are familiar with Olas um Morpheus obviously didn't do very well it hasn't done very well so far um but that was the main reason that I was like interested in Prime for a while it's just that they have like at least some and I know the team is like relatively competent they have they built a good game which is very difficult to do in crypto um they're like teasers look good so I'm I'm like that's my hope with that this is the AI agent token yeah I mean I think that's that's definitely fair um and I think that's a lot of the value of of prime going going forward is you know that that prompt token and what that could

possibly be um everything kind of in the the AI sector and I mean agents too I mean that stuff is you know people can write it off as as vaporware or down the line or whatever but you know if you if you miss something like that I mean you're you're going to be kicking yourself because the valuations can get incredibly silly very quick um so in Prime I mean like you said they've they've built something successful already um I mean the team's great uh so yeah I mean I don't mind making that that bad at all um because again the I mean the reward there is just it's it's massive obviously it's kind of you know up until this point it's more of

like a pie in the sky thing like you know the AI and crypto and and agents and stuff but I mean I do think um that stuff is going to be it's going to be real it's just the timeline's a little uncertain I don't think necessarily anybody knows but making making bets on that are are just kind of one of those things where you kind of just have to do it uh because again like the you know the rewards are so great yeah it's at 2 billion right now FTB right um if it turns out that it is like you know it does kind of get up there as one of the top AI Agent M share tokens as well as being like Prime the game um yeah you could definitely see that DV going into something silly down the track you know

Ai and memes have kind of been the strong things strong sectors this this whole cycle so far um and to be honest I'm not really expecting that to stop yeah all right before we move on let's have a quick word in from Trader Joe thanks to our fantastic sponsor layer zero all right guys for this week's layer zero segment we have blue head of marketing and growth of Trader Jo joining us thank you so much for coming on Blue yeah no worries thanks for having me just to kick us off uh do you want to tell us a little bit about what you guys are building over at Creator Jo yeah sure so um uh for those don't know Trader Joe is the decentralized exchange or I like to refer to us as an onchain token Hub and our key offering

is yeah just giving people the ability to instantly swap tokens at very low cost uh I guess a bit of history about Trader Joe's so we launched in the middle of 2021 on the Avalanche blockchain and we've since expanded to other evm chains such as arbitrum and more recently mantle via a cousin Dex called merch and mo and um to date we've facilitated over 110 billion in lifetime training volume uh and if you know we're we're just a team of just really passionate kind of Builders you know we our mission from day one has just been to to make defi easy and accessible for everyone we want to drive adoption of

you know defi technology uh and we'd like to take a a first principal approach to design to help drive that mission forward forwards you know we're all about making def5 more accessible improving the user experience and generally just making it easier for people to come on chain and swap tokens I mean you guys are doing a great job just like anecdotally Trader Joe is one of the first xes that I ever used and I still use it if I have to like on a chain that I'm on just because I like it um how does layer zero fit into create a j yeah so we um we integrate layer zero or layer Zero's Omni chain fungible

token standard that was back in February 2023 so just over a year ago now uh and and we did that just because we wanted to support our multi-chain expansion Ambitions so we deployed our decks onto arbitrum the end of 2022 um and then the next natural step for that was okay how can we bring the Joe token into arbitr and how can we expand further as well you know if we want to roll out to other medium chains we also want to make sure that the Joe token goes with the platform as well so you know we obviously chose layer Zero's of standard um to kind of evolve that Joe token into well more of an omni chain offering and that was a really

easy decision for us as well was stood out back then um amongst other options that we had uh in terms of you know in in all areas we're looking at you know how can we make a token be transferred across different chains um with Max efficiency uh with security with being able to offer the perfect user experience that that we want to offer our users uh you know layer Zero's of stood out and um uh it's it's you know ever since we integrated it the feedback has has just been amazing like our users happily Bridge across the different ecosystems with Joe we've um we've had over 350,000 messages of

people just trans erring Joe back and forth between arbitrum uh and mantle uh so I you know I think that that volume that we've seen is just a testament to the the experience that users have by being able to transfer their Joe back and forth perfect um I'd also like to hear a bit more about what's like on your road map over the next six to 12 months yeah so we've got a ton of exciting products and experiences coming to Trader Joe and the ecosystem um over the next six months and I'm sure everyone always kind of says the same anyway oh we're building really great stuff but like I I really do mean this right I think Trader Jo has probably had a relatively quiet

start to the year um but a lot of what we're doing is now coming uh into fruition so um I think the first thing I can tease is we'll be using layer zero technology more uh and I'll probably leave it as that for now but you're going to hear about more expansion coming very soon um and then I hate saying it's coming very soon but yeah it's we we'll be expanding more using layer zero technology very soon uh really exciting and then we've got our Jo V3 product that's coming in early summer it's a new to defi protocol con token Mill we announced that name a

couple of months back but we've um we've had to go back through the design process iterating on the original spec a few times as we were running into computation constraints on the evm but we're kind of at that position where we're good to go we're building that now an early summer token Mill will be coming to the Trader Joe ecoystem and then back end of the year in Tangent to Joe V3 we're also working on Joe V4 um you know I don't think anyone's really aware of what jv4 entails but they'll find out relative ly soon as well um and the vision of jv4 is that you know we see a merger of product types in the deck space over the next

few years and jv4 is a product that takes that first step to realizing how we envision a deck evolving um in the coming years so that's a really exciting project that's yeah coming probably at the back end of this year oh sounds very exciting thank you for hopping on Blue yeah no worries thanks for having me what do we think of mother um yeah I honestly I I wrote about in the P weekly last week actually because there just wasn't much else going on um at the time but you know we had Caitlyn Jenner first everyone was frantically trying to figure out if it was real um turns out it was real but it just was very grifty uh the the kind of language

he was using uh you could just see that the intentions were kind of grifty and then a few days later she launched a token on e um as well and then we had all the you know the other kind of dless rappers and stuff that launched one but credit to Iggy she there's just something different about the way she's approached it um she just feels like she gets crypto Twitter a lot more she's pretty good poster she's kind of been working for her bags this whole time and uh the token has been responding it's doing incredibly well actually I think it's at like 170 mil or something now yeah I think so I mean it's somewhere ridiculous here let's look at this I don't know if you guys can see it

yet I mean this just sent me this morning to be fair like yeah yeah um it's the for our listeners who are just like not on video um it's Iggy's tweet about vitalic it's just so funny um but yeah I thought like it was at least relatively non- grifty I don't know um we'll see I mean to me like anytime a celebrity launches the token it's grifty but if it's like less grifty than the other ones I guess it's like a net positive my like I think the big thing about this was that anom was very involved in this whole thing um and I really has definitely contributed to success for sure um but yeah I agree

like it's definitely less grifty doesn't mean it's still not grifty and like the biggest counterargument that I've the way I've been kind of thinking about it is like someone comes in and launches a token on the first day like you know what are the intentions there yeah they could come in and do anything else buy Bitcoin buy e buy soul buy current memes like just get involved in like you know communities if they want to um I don't know use that platform to help spread crypto whatever the reason is but um I don't know it's been she's been doing pretty well so far we'll see if it goes to zero in the end yeah I mean once once it's up above 150 I mean I don't think it's ever

necessarily going to go to zero just because no yeah um but yeah I mean I mixed mixed feelings on it obviously don't want you know everybody coming in and just launching tokens there's better ways to to join the the community but I also think um I don't know like you said I mean the way she's gone about it if there's kind of a right way I would say that everything has been ticked every box has been ticked in the right way and um nobody's you know nobody's forcing you to buy or anybody to buy so you know they they're permiss platforms as you know attention um attention Peaks up like it's just you know it's it's things that

happen so uh you can you can sit and watch for a little bit and I think it was it was pretty clear that you know she was going to stay around at least for for a little bit and I mean it's not the highest bar in the world but I mean attention attention is one of you know in the internet area is one of the most valuable resources in the world so I mean she's winning that attention game right like the discussions that were all over crypto Twitter last week and and even this week and now like viall getting involved and everything um and you know the hate for it as well often a pretty good recipe for number go up yeah yeah I think like a lot of people say hated coin about like a lot of coins that are not hated but this is

definitely like a hated coin Co um yeah and I think for fair like I'm not a big hater um I loved the New Classic the album was great but um I guess the coin is okay like yeah she stayed around for a bit it's fine that's revolutionary but it'll be nice it is what it is you know it's just it's another tokenized detention coin and she's good at captur retention so that's that's I mean he rocking a mad lb now too part of your feel that yeah that just goes to show how grifters always wear [Laughter] madlad yeah a little bit Happ um I've

been kind of pretty into it for the last couple months I suppose since they um since they launched spot trading and per since they debuted spot trading with per uh I didn't really know much about it before and I feel like like probably a lot of people still think about it just as like a pers platform but it's shaping up as a lot more um you know they have so it's a pers platform but now they have spot trading as well that's just gone permissionless too so there's an actual ecosystem that can kind of start getting built and um start getting built there um the it's a it's going to be a fully-fledged L1 basically a fully fledged very high

throughput evm L1 um it's it's actually on test net right now I haven't tested it but um yeah yeah I um I had Jeffrey on the podcast I recorded yeah I did I did it's supposed to come out next Thursday though um but I mean the dude was like first of all it was a pleasure to speak with him because sometimes you'll talk to these Founders and it's not great no one that I've ever talked to I love all of my founders that I've talked to but um I mean he was also like surprisingly very very like a decentralized maxi uh he was like I want

everything on chain um I want and the thing the reason I'm mentioning that is that for example dydx has their order book offchain um hyper liquid has everything on chain which is not as efficient and definitely more difficult to do than the alternative so yeah and I mean they've done have you looked at the Block Explorer like seeing those transactions stream in it's like it just looks insanely it's ridiculous like either they're cooking the books or they've really built something over here yeah um yeah but like you said I also got interested after the Spots Market spot markets I um generally not a per Trader I like that these like this

is the second protocol SL whatever like larger um product that launched its own meme coin um so there was one with Jupiter uh puff and mantle and then there's per and then you earn points by longing spot coins I mean it's just it feels like a recipe for Success it's pretty it's pretty incentive aligned between like both of them well because it's you know usually it's a triangle you have VC's Founders team and users but they haven't raised like it's been completely self funded so far so the expectation is that um a much larger percentage of the token when it does come will go to users so yeah basically

just have users and the team and feels yeah quite incentive aligned for um both parties yeah talk see any takes um not really no um I mean i' kind of been watching I have a a little bit of purr but other than that I mean I don't I don't trade on there too often I I really should um but yeah I mean it's just another you know another founder like and team like we were talking about with sanum obviously this entirely different because there's no VC funding whatsoever um but it's it's refreshing uh to see you know kind of his commitment to to the to the right things in the space so um those are the type of

platforms that like to give you know volume and and attention to so I'm excited to see where it goes from here yeah me as well um I don't know we'll see they have a pretty good like wallet system I I don't know if you cuz um also noticed it but like just bridging not wallet system just bridging over there it doesn't feel like you're bridging at all it just feels so smooth um usually that's why I don't like us like separate l1s for trading stuff but this just that is one thing I'm confused on though actually you might know why why do why you only Bridge from arbitrum why like it's kind of made it feel like it's

arbitrum and that's even some people that I've talked to about hyper liquid have just assumed that it's an arbitr perex because of that as well yeah um they built their this is like I need to relisten to the podcast because I asked them this um as far as I remember they built their own bridging infrastructure and they built through arbitrum so I think that's why um and that's another thing they built a lot of their own stuff like yeah they don't use a lot of external stuff at all which is kind of crazy no VC funding and like you're building everything in house like as good as possible it's it's been he was like a high frequency Trader before or

something right or a market maker or something something along those lines yeah yeah yeah he was um I think he was in Market making before high frequency trading team kind of small as well I don't know I didn't ask okay maybe that's just an assumption I don't um they're not very public though um that's one no they're not and they don't they don't tweet very much and they don't kind of like they're not loud on the timeline uh maybe that'll come later but right now it's definitely just like heads down building and man they've they've shipped and delivered well so far yeah um talks I'm gonna pass it to you for ton because I don't know anything about it about

ton um oh man where do I start I guess uh I don't know I started kind of getting interested I think maybe two months ago or so um I mean ton is the best performing i1 token year to date um so and it's obviously in the top 10 now but um yeah I started digging into the ecosystem a little bit you know maybe a month or two ago started buying a couple things over there just experimenting and it's uh it's pry good user experience um obviously the thesis there is just the distribution that that telegram has it's uh it's pretty unparalleled and how many

US they have now yeah like 900 million plus wow yeah wow wow yeah obviously you know that doesn't translate to to a you know one one user of anything or you know one 100th or anything like that but those that distribution and that funnel just can't be ignored um I would say generally speaking I'm pretty against kind of like web 2 companies like integrating crypto features but it goes out of the window with uh T and telegram for me just because of you know social medias like Network effects uh so yeah I I like I said started exploring that and I mean they

had some uh they have native uh tether now they have um they have some incentive funds for um for creators uh they have easy you know easy onboarding create a wallet right inside side chats um so I think it's kind of I was gonna ask that like the wallet on boarding process they have these 900 million customers um users like is it just like an opt-in you know like I can because I haven't even tried but you know go to your settings and like create a wallet that's tied to your phone number or something uh yeah I believe so I actually haven't done it myself uh but I think they have you know kind of like a 5k limit or something before and then I think it's kyc so okay yeah so I don't know if uh if that I mean I would assume

that'll eventually change um but yeah so I've just kind of been exploring that ecosystem and just kind of you know watching what's going on there especially because you know CT is very I'd say probably I mean it's us-based the US not us-based but predominantly yeah Us hours um one of the interesting things about telegram is that you know the US is their um not their least used country but I mean compared to other social media like I mean telegram's presence here is essentially just crypto people and that's it yeah um but it's massive in other parts of the world so it's one of those things that I just want to keep an eye on because um with that distribution and that amount of

users it's not something that I think you can kind of it could very easily you know just spark a fire overnight and explode compared to you know gradual growth that you know steady growth month over month that you can see there's uh there's the recipe there for you know all of a sudden people being like oh like you know ton and the ecosystem is here um so they launched uh they did have not coin launch that was was that but um yeah so they had it was it's kind of like a um in chat or in Channel like simple gaming interface but I mean

they have I think they have seven million people in that telegram the Twitter has I want to say like n million followers um wow so yeah that launched up to 2 point I think three billion FTV last time I checked but uh the interesting thing is um I mean the volume for for NCoin was above everything other than BTC and eth last week that was and you'd come back every day to the to your charts and just say it off like another 25 to 40% and top of the volume as well yeah I didn't even realize I was e that's crazy yeah so um the ecosystem I mean it's a little it's a little Bare

Bones right now um but I mean that's where the opportunity lies so I mean you can look at you know tvl charts and it's I mean tvl is minus School compared to to uh most other chains but the users you know the transactions the everything every other metric the distribution the funnel all of that stuff is I mean the size of it is unparalleled so that's something that I uh I've been exploring and you know I check in at least once a week yeah I um the re you know what I was like thinking about with this is that it has like two potential narratives one is what you mentioned whatever like some form of an

ecosystem um growing in the US as well as like in the West is what I assume uh you meant because telegram is like you said primarily a nonwestern app like it's especially used in Eastern Europe um and I was almost wondering if like the number one use gates for it could be they onboarded usdt um if it could just be like being the Tron of not Asia you know what I mean yeah yeah yeah yeah it just feels like the most natural fit like I know that that's not particularly like good um valuation wise but at the end of the day like it would be more usage like more or it them pretty well without any mind share apart like in you know kind of our

circles and general yeah so it's something to watch I mean and I mean the ton like telegram um I mean the foundation everything is you know they're they're very committed to to supporting you know crypto and things that are built within telegram so I mean that's another aspect um that is pretty pretty unique to ton so um like I said all of you know if you just kind of toss up the the metrics of um tvl you know deck trading volumes things like that they're it's not impressive at all but I think the the seeds are are planted for you know some some very very explosive growth so um I think uh was it

maybe last month privy the um you know the smart wallet that built you know they built all the the mobile stuff friend pet all the easy onboarding you know just kind of click and and send they uh they started integrating with with telegram and um ease of use of building like directly in in channels so there's a lot of things kind of behind the scenes that that are kind of building up in my mind and then again you have more users than um I don't know by many orders of magnitude than any other you know chain or you that distribution funnel is just I mean it's unrivaled so it's something watch yeah I

mean you can see the the growth start to pick up there yeah I mean this looks pretty ridiculous I mean obviously all of these can be faked to an extent um active addresses transactions tvl um maybe not tvl but like they can be faked but still this looks like pretty ridiculous growth and I agree with you I mean 900 mil users yeah obviously you're not going to capture all of those guys but I mean the this like if you're talking about social fight this is social fight exactly you know like yeah it seems social fight is coming in a few different forms that we uh didn't expect everyone was kind of you know like fch fantasy and then now

we got celebrities making mem kinds and um and T yeah I um actually talking about frch this is one thing that I wanted to ask and I've been thinking about it a lot is like what is base coinbase beta on chain and I think the thought process behind it is like obviously coinbase smart wallet launched which is like huge a but it's also I don't know how much of that is going to go to base coins um and specifically which ones because which one represents the ecosystem well enough um I think there's like three lines of thinking it's DJ friend and arrow but I don't know curious what you guys think

about that um yeah I don't know much about Arrow but I would say I don't know theoretically you'd definitely think that friend I suppose I suppose it didn't it kind of launched at a bad time for the bass Eco didn't it whereas djen kind of had like prime time um as lots of stuff was popping up on bass um but yeah DJ and friend being like bass beta definitely makes sense um yeah are you asking which one though over I don't know I um I actually like arrow is basically a DEX coin um they it's the other like Vel Drome is on op stack and then on is on optimism and

then arrow is its like counterpart on base I um yeah I had a pretty crazy uh run recently right in the last couple mons yeah yeah yeah yeah and that's why I was like like in obviously you don't think of like Dex coins as being the representatives of a chain but there are so few like legitimate because base launched at a time where D5 was not as popular um and it's still not very popular right now that there aren't that many like legit tokens um and it doesn't have an L1 token L2 token obviously I don't know if it ever will will have one I um I've heard some pretty like sad stuff about that that made me actually no I'm still I'm still very optimistic yeah I'm still

holding I don't know as far as kind of like pure beta goes I don't know if there's necessarily like a like a crown token um I mean dgen strength the past couple weeks on updates has been something that that I've noted I mean it's been up there with the top performing coins on on upd um obviously they raised was it 150 million a couple weeks ago so um I I would say probably probably djen and then I mean maybe friend pet too they're pretty close to to coin yeah actually brought that one up something that I don't know do you either of you guys know much about friend pet or like I I I gave up on it because my this is one of those things that I sold way

too early oh yeah oh yeah me too it's like now I can't ever look at that chart again I think I bought it like onek market cap or sub 1K market cap when the limit was like you can only buy a dollar per wallet um anyway I think that is also a really good candidate for um Bas beta and like base game fire it's really like is it kind of the only candidate for base gameplay yeah they have one more called sexy I don't know if you guys know it it's like e XY but it's not oh yeah oh that's right yeah um but yeah soot looks pretty good yeah you know there's there's a few main tokens on there but I

think similar to the the ton convers like the smart wallet in coin bases distribution like the funnel they have again is I mean it's not on ton levels but it's you know it's yeah it's pretty big it's it's pretty massive they they command the US market and that's not going to go anywhere um anybody you know us- based who who comes on on chain is generally going to be through coinbase so um even you know while while volumes are are a little down on on base and there's going to be some quiet periods but I think the you know the thesis there is similar to ton and that the distribution is it's pretty unparalleled so it's a thing that you know you just want to place a few bets and you know if it doesn't work out it doesn't work out

but that upside you know the upside case of bringing on you know tens of millions of users and being able to to easily navigate you know any token to any base chain coin and you know getting listed on on coinbase hypothetically like all that stuff is you know the thesis is very clear yeah yeah you want to have some some bets there just for for down the line yeah and just commanding the US market means you're commanding 40% of the world's economy it's like yeah exactly the marginal I mean the marginal wealth of like the user that would be brought on is is kind of what you you want to Target there so um yeah I mean we'll see I mean coinbase is um you know

they're they're incentivized to they're making a lot of money from base too so yeah the incentives are are very align there so I think I think um you know kind of with uh with sports betting and um sites like that you know they have all these promos and you know first bed is free $5 bonus beted etc etc I think you can start eventually might see coinbase start to run you know some type of just onboarding you know get on chain know we'll pay your you know whatever 205 $10 of of eth in a in a smart wallet you know you can create in five minutes claim your eth like some of the stuff that you know they can run like promo wise and funnelwise push people down to

base is I mean it's it it can get pretty nutty pretty quick so I don't think yeah I think that makes total sense I I agree I assume they'll be running some like I don't have coinbase but I assume that whenever you're like oh I want to withdraw e or usdc the first option is always based right so I think that'll continue I think they also to do like free gas on basee which would be huge I mean Base gas is so low but I think still like if you're a new user if you just don't have that much that you want to spend um like gas May bother you um so I think that's also like depending on application you can have it for free so

that's pretty good as well yeah all those yeah all those type of things is again back to the T conversation like that's just stuff like that is something that I am more than comfortable you know placing a few bets and if it doesn't work out it doesn't work out but the the RR there is is pretty big so yeah I mean I I keep eyes on on base stuff pretty much every day and and monitor the volume so um yeah it's it's it's exciting so I think people you know overestimate what what the short-term impact just like you know everything in life but the the long long-term impact of you know everything that coinbase is doing the funnel they have the smart wallet all that stuff is is just awesome for getting people on chain so yeah I I yeah I agree I

remember when uh when trading Bots first became a thing like you know like unibot banana and stuff and people started to catch on to like the whole just the idea that you that it was quite easy to onboard someone you know they didn't even really have to know that they were being I don't know it's just completely different to like creating a metamask saving a private key like withdrawing from a centralized exchange um you know going to UNIS putting in the contract address Etc like you just fire up Telegram and um send some some me or whatever and then pry came out um you know same thing there like you almost you could almost use like friend Tech and stuff without kind of needing to know that you were in

crypto um and yeah that combined with exactly like you say the funnel that coinbase has will be big down on the track some point yeah mean those are those are pretty much the three I mean eth soul and and base I mean we can get to to runes and ordinals I'd throw those in there too but I mean those are pretty much the three chains that that I'm pretty pretty focused on so I was gonna get upset that you didn't mention ruines but you did so yeah um you know what was so funny on bass last week when they did that well it was sad that Normie got um hacked but I don't know if you guys saw the video they released

M no oh then I can't bring it up but I what it was was basic um Normie got hacked obviously it was like one of the popular meme coins on Bas and then they released a video like three days after getting hacked and it was just like a character hanging himself and I was like why the why would you ever Savage why would you ever post this from your own account but um that's like one of the things that's been on B I feel like Solana has I guess they have de oh Brett there Brett Brett's at 1.2 billion now yeah I think has been up only I was meaning to ask was that the cabal coin everyone was talking about recently it kind of like nuked because they realized that 40% was owned by was

that coin yeah that was that was Brett yeah I think it now2 bill yeah I don't remember exactly how low it got but I mean the fud was uh and I'm pretty sure it was you know very very valid criticism Insider controlled um but yeah it's up to 1.4 billion now I mean nobody talks about it like there's no mentions of it it's just kind of just goes up it Wicked to 200 mil whoa je yeah it's up 7x from the bottom that just I don't know it feels like a bad meme I'm not gonna like maybe I'm no I agree like I'm not I don't know much about it but like it definitely

doesn't scream um appeal I suppose like you know some meme coins do V like virality and whatnot yeah I I mean there are very few funny memes anyway like they're funny if they're going up but even if they're going down there not at all so that's the that's the dirty secret isn't it all right um I think I think that's it I think we've covered most do you guys have anything else do you want talk orinal at all or I'm good if not you know what I wanted to bring it up but last time I talked about it on the show it it was the local top and so now now a bit

worried but like I guess I can I like basically what I wanted to bring up was that I wanted to show this I feel like people aren't looking into this I mean Park KZ you guys have a fantastic um ordinal charting as well but for my purposes I wanted to show this is that I don't know if like you guys were early into runes um ordinals like Bitcoin ecosystem at all but like the way that I remember it is that when you were buying and selling ordinals initially you were buying and selling through Google Sheets which is like yeah yeah and then you were like asking the the guy who launched it to hold it for you for a few weeks while you set up

some form of a wallet and then you would set up the wallet and then um you were like afraid to burn it cuz like they're all inscribed on a SAT um and now we have this like this is a proper chart proper book and I think this is something that I was talking about with like Daniel who's another analyst on the team and it was that like his point of view which is very fair is that the ruin trading experience is horrible the BTC trading experience is horrible that like ecosystems bad but I think it's like I mean this stuff just gets exponentially better always like you go from discords and Google Sheets to like an actual interface then magic Eden picks it up

then you have marketplaces everywhere okx and then you have like finally proper charting proper tools to buy and sell and I'm sure that they're going to launch some form of a telegram but over the next few months that makes it even easier to buy and sell stuff yeah yeah for sure yeah totally I agree I wasn't as early as that I wasn't buying stuff off spreadsheets but yeah that's uh was that like a was it even 18 months ago now um I think it was around that that ordinal started but yeah the tech has actially increased um and even runes in the last runes on Magic Eden in the last um you know since like a few weeks pre-launch um brc's to now what they have is is

pretty crazy yeah I mean it like it got so much we'll see I mean these some of these things are like obviously not going to do particularly well but in general like like you mentioned talks it's all E Bas I think runes ordinals anything on BTC like you have to at least keep in track of just because it if it gets that Narrative of like Providence the mother chain this it's patriotic to buy stuff on bitcoin you know yeah no I mean I mean the wealth obviously the wealth created through BTC over the past years has been absolutely nutty too I mean I don't think there's necessarily good data on you know the early BTC people wanting and or actually

spending on on runes and ordinals but um I mean it's it's again one of those things like the wealth is there and you know the the interface is getting a little better it's still it still sucks trading runes I mean just it is what it is um but yeah I mean it's it's something that they definitely need to to keep an eye on so and I think the the ticker like each ticker too I think can only be used once if I'm not mistaken yeah yeah I think that's another like lowkey benefit is that with you know pump. fun and I mean with eth gas being low and you know there's such saturation of of memes and tokens that there there can't be you know repeats and the same

thing over and over on on BTC so I think that's kind of like a um a pretty pretty lowkey thing that that can benefit run runes specifically so yeah that makes sense yeah they're also like decreasing the amount of letters that you can put um I know this isn't like particularly Innovative but I thought it was cool that like I think right now it's 13 letters so it would be like the the one I'm looking at right now is called like dog go to the Moon I think that's 13 letters and every like I think every like some period of time they shorten it so it'll be 12 letters 11 10 until it's like 4 32 um which is cool because you're forcing like whatever Creator it

is to pick some for of like a decent name or and you're like you can't just Spam random stuff which is also good I mean it's expensive anyway but yeah I mean that's yeah like I was saying I mean the the saturation across uh other chains is is is pretty big and I think people are getting a little a little tired of it so I mean that's that's definitely a plus to to BTC with the fees and and the weird naming conventions that kind of limit you know the number of stuff that that can be launched so um compl opposite of Sal right like a mass disp tokens being created a day when it's youing off liit on bitcoin but yeah something to watch

moving forward for sure yeah um all right guys I really appreciate you coming on thank you yeah thanks for having us both this is fun yeah was a blast anytime um hopefully once this is we'll get we'll get the good pump on the coins like last time we recorded whole time like when's it going to happen but yeah hopefully uh we'll be right with with how we started about you know things going up from here so we shall see but yeah thanks as always it was it was fun yeah it was a pleasure good job boys have a good day you later [Music]