🚨LIVE: BTC In Trouble?! ZCash Bug From CLAUDE?! EMERGENCY SHOW with Mert, Josh & Haseeb

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[music] [music] Heat. Heat. [music] [music] Thank [music] you Lord.

[music] We'll see you around the timeline. Feels good [music] to be back. I think the rollup is one [music] of the most premier media [singing] brands in crypto and Andy and Robbie are great experts [music] at everything they talk about and it's my favorite podcast. >> Adding it to my library every >> potentially multi-chain deployments. We are at the connect day [music] one here. You guys see the face? [music] [music] [music]

[music] >> [music] [music] [music] >> Heat. Heat. [music] >> [music] [music] >> JP Morgan, Black Rockck, DTCC, Fidelity,

the entire thing was just institutions. It's just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. I'm bullish. >> He said it. He finally said it. So bullish. It >> is bullish. I'm bullish. We're bullish. [music] >> [music]

>> Heat. Heat. [music] >> [music] >> Heat. Heat. [music] >> [music] >> Corolla [music]

is headed to the top and we're Not already at the top. We're going to the tugos. >> Roll up is my favorite. >> People from all walks of life, all over the world, all over this industry come together for the roll up. [music] [music] [music] >> [music] [music] [music]

>> Zoom out. The institutions aren't coming. They're simply here. It's the golden age of crypto, guys. Get right. Let's go. Roll [music] up is heading to the top. If we're not already at the top, we're going to the tugos. >> Roll up is my favorite. >> From all walks of life, all over the world, all over this industry [music] come together for the roll up. [music] [music] [music] Heat. Heat. N.

[music] [music] >> [music] [music] >> Heat. Heat. [music] Heat. [music] [music]

Heat. [music] >> [music] >> Roll [music] up is headed to the top. If we're not already at the top, we're going to the top. We're going >> rollup is my favorite. from all walks of life, all over the world, all over this industry [music]

come together for the roll up. [music] [music] [music] >> [music] [music] >> Corola [music] is headed to top. If

we're not already at the top, we're going to the tongue. >> Roll up is my favorite. >> People from all walks of life, all over the world, all over this industry come together for the roll up. [music] [music] [music] >> [music] [music] >> Zoom out. The institutions aren't

coming. They're simply here. [music] It's the golden age of crypto, guys. Get right. Let's go. >> [music] >> Welcome to the nest. See you on the show. [snorts] >> We're here. Yeah. What the What? What? Yeah. So, we're gonna we're gonna have to figure something out here.

We're gonna have to figure something out here. Um, guys, the market's in shambles in case you hadn't noticed. Uh, we're running uh privacy protocol vulnerability through Claude and we're going to be talking about that today. We're going to be talking about that and a whole lot more today. Um, should be a fantastic show. Uh we do have our friends, our partners, our [sighs] the people that we do this every day day in and day out with. Uh our partners over at Plume are going to be joining us with EtherFi and they're going to be talking about the new hund00 million uh partnership between Ether and Plume. So, we're very

excited about this. We're going to be having them up in just a few minutes. But obviously the elephant in the room here is that um the relative strength trade is uh imploding before our eyes. We've had a lot of conversations on the show recently about how hyperlid Zcash near would hold up amidst a Bitcoin draw down. It almost seemed like a foregone conclusion that Bitcoin was going to make new lows. We're seeing that happen now. Uh, Bitcoin broke below 60K. Uh, Ethereum was tapping on the door of 1500. Uh, we were at lows. I mean, we hadn't seen in

years. At the same time, you know, while Bitcoin was still above 60, we had hyperlquid uh, Zcash near that were holding the line and there was this relative strength trade playing out. And if you guys watched the show yesterday, you know, we were in Connecticut. We were speaking with lots of hedge fund managers, board members for public companies, talking about the market conditions, and there was this uneasy feeling in the room where we were starting to see this thing unwind and we were starting to see how this thing could play out. And up until then, earlier in the week, we were talking about relative strength. We started to realize that these things were uncorrelated. In fact, they were inversely correlated for a for a little

while. We saw a hyperlquid Zcash near go up when Bitcoin would come down. And so this started to play out in our minds. Hey, maybe this time is different. Maybe there are things at play here because you know Sailor is selling and that is isolated to Bitcoin. Macros isolated to Bitcoin. These things wouldn't have a systemic impact on the markets as a whole. but over the last couple of days and we're going to get into the Zcash network vulnerability and we're going to have Josh Swheeart and Mert on the show today talking about this unpacking fact from fiction. How big of a deal is this?

What is the remediation plan moving forward? We're going to be talking about all of this as we move forward today during the show. But if we're just looking at what is out there right now, Bitcoin is making new lows. It's breaking below 60. It it is it is we're starting to see how these things are going to play out. And you know whether that is coupled by or exacerbated by the Zcash vulnerability, these things are not just correlated again, they are expounding and and they are uh extra reflexive. They are beta on Bitcoin as they typically are. So news flash, this time is not different. It's the same thing that it's always been.

And this is the four-year cycle playing out as it always does. And so this is a paradigm shift from what we may have thought it was. If you thought this time was different, if you thought the four-year cycle is over, it's time to reset your priors, come back to reality, and think to yourself, hey, the four-year cycle is real. We're seeing it play out. And so if we're looking at the four-year cycle and this is now the mindset and the thesis that we're moving forward with because, you know, obviously we have to we we should, you know, think about this as as we're going forward and constantly adjust our assumptions.

>> Get some sounds going. >> The four-year cycle is >> welcome back. >> Yeah, welcome back. Uh because uh >> somebody said, "Where's Arthur Hayes now? Top secret agent. Where is Arthur Hayes? That guy's in a visa doing the twostep. He doesn't give a [ __ ] about you." That's the problem. That's the problem. Ladies and gentlemen, we are live here at the tokenization tower live from the Empire State Building. It is a beautiful June 5th Friday. It's not Cinco de Mayo, but damn, should it ever be. I'll tell you what, I'm going to have a drink after this. Um, yeah. Yeah, I think I I think that's probably the one. Um, so yeah, I mean, last 48 hours just been a mental headwind rocking the ship. We've got the Plumey Ether guys ready to go. Rob, why

don't we bring them up? We're gonna get them all set up and squared away here. But my god, Rob. My god, Rob. Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold up. We're here at the Nest by Plume powering the tokenization tower, the onchain infrastructure for asset management. Rob, and boy oh boy, is it good. Is it good to be back, Rob? >> So, Andy, I know that we're going to have a bit of a break between our first guest and our second guest. And so, we can get we can get into this a little bit deeper. I was in the middle of a rant around resetting our priors, talking about the relative strength thesis. Now, if you thought this time was different, turns out this time is the same as the last time. The four-year

cycle is here and and it's uh this is the thesis that we'll be moving forward with. >> Yeah. Yeah, guys. So, for those watching, we have our first set of guests. Then, we're going to go through all what's happening in the market. Then, we have a amazing end of the show. So, stoked on this one. Let's bring them up, Rob, and let's talk about Plume and Ether contributing uh to a partnership that is defining what we call Neo Finance. We've got James here uh alongside Charles. Gentlemen, great to have you. Great news yesterday. Congratulations. Um I know this is not the first kind of combination of both Plume and Ether. It and it certainly won't be the last. Um welcome back to the show.

>> Thanks for having us. >> Yep. Thanks Andy. Great to be back on. >> Yeah, Charles. Good to have you. Why don't we start with you? I know it was you, Teddy, and I last time. Etherfi commits a hund00 million into Plume's vault uh infrastructure. You know, this product is called the Nest. It's where we're at right now in the Nest. Uh Charles, walk us through the what, the why, the how. Break us down a bit. All, you know, we have the PR release. People kind of understand at a high level, but take us through kind of like the thought process here. >> Yeah, absolutely. So around a quarter ago was kind of back on the show here announcing some of our initial deployments uh into Nest and some of the Plume offerings. Since then it's kind of been an iteration and evolution of that

strategy into really what is a full-fledged evergreen product. What we've seen in the DeFi space as of late has been kind of certain frictions and concerns raised from you know whether it be vulnerabilities acts across different DeFi entities etc. And what we're able to merge here is a reduced DeFi risk surface along with an institutional grade risk uh kind of access alongside uh the credit as well as um the other kind of yield pieces that come together to really make this portfolio stand out.

What I think is most amazing here is that on the product front, what you'll see is aside from the liquid east, USD, and BTC vaults, this will now enter as sort of the fourth pillar where we'll have an evergreen vault dedicated to what is initially an allocation across different assets from Black Rockck, Fidelity, Falcon X, and an everexpanding, call it, player universe of new opportunities that come through this partnership with Flume. Very very cool. And from the Plume side, uh James, you know, please talk us through, you know, what does it mean to have EtherFi, you know, more fully ingrained into the Bloom platform?

>> Yeah, I think that we're operating on a couple core beliefs, which Charles basically just alluded to. Where is the scale of user onboarding going to come from and what do those users need to improve the onchain DeFi experience? And we believe very firmly that neo banks and these B2B TTOC channels are going to be the access point for how we're going to grow the user base on chain. Uh and then you look at like what do they need in order to have a more sustainable economic environment for us to scale and they need diversified yield strategies.

We we all are very aware and believe that there's going to be scaling in stable coins and then from there the next question is how can you find uncorrelated yield with all the crypto volatility? I think we'll continue to have you know our dgens that that want to be in products that may be more opaque. Um but you have to counterbalance that with what is scaled capital that is looking for yield from strate credit strategies which are sustainable uh and that is what if you look at the composition of this vault uh it's quite elegantly designed in partnership with etherfi and these are

strategies which they can confidently expose to their user base and as Charles said it's evergreen. Um, we continue, we want to expand from here and give those users basically access to an all-weather fund potentially uh if that if they so desire that. >> Very cool. >> And then James a bit more on that. What is the like you know that $100 million pledge where does that capital go? How is the process of kind of getting that capital into these yield bearing products work and kind of timelines, estimated um redemption periods? who you know how are you guys thinking about this additional capital into the vault product?

>> Yeah. So it's a mix of the EtherFi LP base as well as manage capital uh from their liquid vaults. And so we see a split of this initial allocation into our basis trading vault and a bespoke vault that we have put together that is composed of the assets which Charles mentioned earlier. You're looking at a CLLO product. you're looking at diversified and mostly investment grade bond product and you're looking at uh a let's call it onchain um you know syndicated loan product as well um from f from Falcon X and so the thought process behind the new vault was to put something together that would be

competitive with existing DeFi yields while also managing things like you mentioned how do we ensure that users have redemptions within periods that they're comfortable with. And we do those things through mechanics like maintaining liquidity sleeves, be it, you know, small percentages of the vault are maintained in money tokenized money market funds that allow access for, you know, daily redemptions up to kind of reasonable targets. All of this gives your average DeFi user the features that they're used to, which are the ability to get in and out of positions pretty seamlessly while, you know, having competitive yield through the basket that we've composed here.

>> Yeah. And just to add on to that a bit, uh the utility kind of doesn't end there. So part of this integration is actually embedding the vault and earn product into our platform. What that translates to is actually all cash card users have the ability to hold this vault, utilize it as collateral, borrow against it. You can actually capture a spread at the moment between the borrow rate and the net interest rate of the new RWA vault. And so we think this will really be a killer way to extend the utility of the product. And now we're not only using tokenized rails to reduce friction and improve access, but also allow for payments to go through while

earning this yield offchain with a very neat kind of hybrid architecture. >> And so maybe you can describe, you know, who the end customer of this is. We we were in Connecticut um and we were talking uh to you know several of these he hedge fund managers yesterday at the CT digital forum and what what we kind of came to is that ultimately the banking complex is becoming really reconfigured. Um I'm excited for the days where you know we're no longer earning half a percent yield in our savings account. we we can potentially transition this into a neo bank that is passing on you know 8% a credit or you know some of these underlying you know RWA products that are yielding you know high singledigit percentiles with

hopefully you know the bank is already lending out our money right we we might as well you know get a better understanding of the risk and actually get compensated for it fairly is that the end customer is basically we're gonna we're gonna use this as sort of this this y this foundational yield uh layer and then we're going to distribute this through neo banks through distribution channels through you know potentially you know banks at large if they choose to adopt this as you think through you know distribution what is you know collectively the goal here to ultimately get this into the hands of the many >> yeah I think you're absolutely spot on there over on the etherf side we are attempting to build a full-fledged neo bankank and have rolled out a lot of

those rails for on-ramp off-ramp we're now pushing into the FX space. We recently launched a Euro card backed by Euro C where you can actually spend euros without any FX fees involved. So, as you mentioned there, we're seeing kind of the continued growth of stable coins as the underlying tailwind to the adoption of of the entire industry. And with that, there's just this natural seeking of yield. What we hope to achieve here in terms of initial adoption is a twopart uh kind of starting over on the institutional side.

We have upwards of 500 corporates onboarded. We're seeing kind of Dows, treasuries, market makers and other small funds kind of use these rails uh to not only kind of move into the space of payments of bills, payments of employees, treasury management. Um but also we're seeing kind of the adoption as you mentioned uh moving upwards on the stack in terms of the corporate entity and size and scale. So we're quite excited about what's to kind of spin up here in terms of the next 6 to 12 months not only from uh the plume side but in general from the RWA space and tokenization industry. The iceberg here is is only getting started in terms

of what can be tokenized and will be tokenized. And as you're kind of promptly mentioned around ACRED and other assets, we're in a certain period of time marketwise where macro is a bit depressed. Um, but it's a very different size and shape offchain. And so being able to bring those yields for everyone to access at a competitive rate, I think is something that we'll see a lot of success here. >> And maybe you could just speak a little bit more as to why, you know, there's a lot of RWA products out there, a lot of RWA platforms. Why is Plume the partner that you chose to go forward with this?

>> Yeah, absolutely. I would say uh from our point of view, it's really about uh the access, the risk, uh some of the underlying infrastructure. These typical RWA products that you've seen in the space over the past few years have had very opaque structuring. Uh the actual bankruptcy process and other kind of tail risk assets are not well defined. This all changes with the offering from Plume. What we're able to see here is kind of the next generation of transparency that we can bring out to our users and holders and make them feel comfortable in kind of holding these assets on chain in a time where we have elevated risks.

>> Yeah, I'll ask Bobby or Andy if you can and I appreciate it. Charles nails it. Um, you look at two sides of the space to date. You have the opaque side which Charles is kind of describing and then you have some mature institutional tokenization projects right that don't necessarily solve though for the curation vault level vault operations level and I think that is where Plume is excelling and why this partnership really came to fruition at the scale that we're looking to do that the ability for us to not just be supply driven and what do these asset issuers need but what is the demand side looking for and how can we be creative in helping curate these vaults to satisfy

what their users need. The creative things that we're doing around these liquidity sleeves, managing redemption times timelines, all of this allow us to satisfy the requirements of the new type of capital that is onboarding to platforms like EtherFi. And so as long as EtherFi keeps doing a great job of scaling their platform and bringing on diversified suites of capital, you know, we'll continue to be able to service both the technology to tokenize assets, but then also the cur curation side to deliver them to vaults and it becomes a flywheel, right, that just reinforces kind of our market position.

>> And I want to just I I think I know the answer to this question. It it may be obvious but just to confirm you know amidst the market conditions here people are very worried they're very scared there is zero correlation or or really interaction at all between you know the crypton native tokens and market conditions and these products is is that the correct case >> it's accurate um you I'll let Charles jump in as well but you're looking at these are products which have you know longevity in off-chain public markets and they're derived if you look at the Fidelity total bond product right 400 plus bonds about 80% of it is investment

grade about 20% high yield these are completely non-correlated to digital asset volatility you look at this cloa product from black rockck right these this is aaa the highest level trunch of their clo product a bunch of diversified corporate borrowers these things are macrodiverse away from what has historically been in these kind of more opaque structures really just generating yield by looping digital assets and therefore your exposure your beta to that volatility is incredibly high and in this case we're really diversifying away from it and I think that's just pivotal in order for us to scale to be

able to offer products like this and maybe Charles you could speak a little bit more toward I guess the decision process process from your guys end and what the demand side is really requiring at this stage. >> Yeah, absolutely. Just to chime in a bit further on that point, I would say it also depends on how we define diversification. And I would say within the crypto industry, we we typically have a bit of a tunnel vision problem. the lowest layer of diversification is, you know, when speaking to some of our larger LPs could look like something of I'm looping east on a, I'm also looping east on Morpho. Um, and and that kind of very uh narrow mindset doesn't really uh [clears throat] attack kind of the

larger problem at whole, which is the reflexivity of the market. What happens here is we tend to repackage the same crypto risks in a lot of different ways. And what it ends up looking like is you still have a large exposure to the funding rates to the different incentive programs. What we're doing here is at a high level bringing in not only diversification of strategies but of asset classes. And I think that is really the unlock here for the future. And then gentlemen, just last thing for you from my side as as far as like the scale of this $100 million now changes if this gets to 250 million, a billion, 10 billion as far as the ability for

these products to pay out yield as far as the ability for Plume to be able to manage these assets, right? Because these these assets that we're talking about are massive uh yield products, right? With, you know, tens of billions, hundreds of billions, trillions of dollars in them, there there's no scale problem here at all, right? Not in no way. I think there's there's actually there's scale in multiple directions that we're really excited about the next step. There's scale through being able to scale this specific vault. It could be hundreds of millions of dollars, billions of dollars. We would have no issue being able to service that. But there's also, as Charles said, diversification of strategies and asset classes. And so we are already kind of in discussion for what comes next, what would be

complimementaryary towards what we've composed here that might be interesting as they try to service kind of different capital requirements and uh different investment mandates. >> Gotcha. >> And that's truly the beauty of using onchain rails is that the operational process we've set up here on launch scales to as you mentioned 100 million, a billion, 10 billion. the process is the same, the gas fees are the same. It's just a different input of of token amount and and value there. And so, we're really excited that what we put together here will stand the test of time at an institutional quality and we are only continuing to grow the platform and our partnership with Bloom.

>> Beautiful gentlemen, congratulations. Amidst a uh wild week in the markets, you guys found found yourselves in in a strong position. New products, Etherfi, bring more users onchain into Neo into the Neo Bank platform. Plume, keep delivering the yield opportunities through Nest Vault. Let's scale this thing, boys. Billions. Billions. >> Let's do it. Thanks for having us, guys. >> Thanks for coming, guys. Congrats again. >> Cheers, guys. >> Yeah, there you go. It's on. >> All righty, Rob.

>> Um, the chat is chat's losing their mind. >> Yeah. Um Arthur Hayes is very very much being blamed for for this move. Um >> look, I mean Zcash had the vulnerability. Arthur Hayes didn't he didn't cause it. He didn't discover it. He sold >> Liquid will succeed with or without Arthur says MK motivation. Uh Coney is I had an ear in hyper before Arthur Hay said he was holding them. He's laughing but also is mad that he got dumped on.

Stop. >> Um, Extinct Prism is throwing things in the trash. [laughter] Guys, we have an amazing segment as well later with um the fullest extent of what's been happening in the in the space. I mean, the Rob I mean, how like how would you even explain what happened in the last 72 hours, >> man? So I think if you had been watching the show I wanted to describe our own approach as cautious >> cautiously optimistic.

>> Right. >> Right. Monday, let me just look back at our schedule of this week to kind of remind us about what a roller coaster it's been. >> Yeah. >> So Monday, our only guest was Dell Dixon of the Stellar Foundation. [laughter] We're not we're let's just leave that aside for now. That was Monday. [laughter] That's that was a whole different situation. >> Then you know we really started to get into the relative strength trade. We started to get into hyperlquid Zcash near heavily capital flows on right.

>> Yeah. We started off Tuesday morning with capital flows and we were getting into cam the gamma squeeze >> gamma squeeze was coming like we were about to send per to $26 by Friday type [ __ ] >> It was insane. We were talk and Bitcoin was just it was just like it was 65 maybe we bounced up a little bit higher. We were kind of oscillating around the 65k mark but ultimately we were you know struggling to maintain that. We were kind of oscillating like 63 to 67 earlier in the week. It just didn't really look great for Bitcoin getting anywhere. The best that we could hope for was just holding the line. And so we started to talk about, oh wow, hype Zcash. Can I get an Oh, wow. Hype Zcash >> wow.

>> Hype Zcash. >> Wow. >> Were actually doing well. They were they were not just holding up while Bitcoin was was holding up. They were outperforming. They were going to the upside. And so we we started to put together a thesis for what it could look like if these things were going to rally in a Bitcoin bare market. That [laughter] >> dude, the chat is so funny. [gasps] >> We're going to get we're going to get to the chat. I just want to get through the rest of this week. So then after we talked about what that could look like, we we talked then we developed the relative strength thesis. We said, "Oh, there's a gamma squeeze happening.

Doesn't matter. Hyperlid is the next generation. It's better than the NASDAQ. >> [laughter] >> Um, and we started to think about, okay, what how are these things possibly going to go up? Uh, there's this liquidity squeeze. Bitcoin is there. People are going to sell Bitcoin. They're going to buy Zcash. [laughter and gasps] And so we started to play around with this thesis and then and then George came on and Hyperlid flipped soul in price which was >> Yeah. Somebody in the chat just said uh the last 72 hours of roller coaster crazy ride. We were celebrating hype surpassing souls together. It >> was so silly. That was so silly. And George came on and was talking about one final rotation into Hyperlid and then everything else goes to zero. It's one

final repricing uh for for the ages. Um and this was essentially going to say like, hey, this is negatively correlated. Bitcoin's going to go down. This is a new paradigm. He even said, I reluctant to say this time is different, but it feels different. >> And That was kind of it. And then we obviously once Connecticut went and then it all happened >> and then and then you know these things ultimately arised aro arrived at the place where we were very very cautiously hoping that they were not going to >> Yeah, I don't trust other Hayes. Leave it at that. It's not over. We're linking up when the internet shut down gang about it. Andy's energy. And Andy's energy was similar to when he was

excited about uranium. But all love for Andy, but when when Andy's excited, maybe time for profits, bro. I literally took the profit screenshot on my per trade, sent it to Aton right here and didn't sell. Like, it was a one day profit. It was six figures on one day. And it and I didn't press the sell button. I I just I just like I've nearly roundt tripped the entire thing. Like I'm I'm just wow. Ccash went down to 200. I don't know if it went all the way down there, but yeah. Sold all [snorts] my shitcoin. Just buying Canton network.

Done with this nonsense. Dude, Canton is the ultimate ultimate uh >> control the supply. >> Ultimate memecoin. Like it's just at 15 cents no matter what. Always. >> Can you guys at some time in the future talk about serious possible competitors to hype? Can variational be the answer or will we return to Dudx or GMX? I've never heard of Oh, Dydx. That's a little typo. Yeah, Dydx, GMX. I mean, these were great. GMX is still alive. They're actually doing buybacks. Um, are they a competitor to Hype? No one has any kind of moat or or anywhere close to the first mover advantage that Hype has on RWA hip 3 markets. It's it's, you know, Hyperlid has just gotten the

distribution. >> Oh my god. Yeah. Let's let's cut over to our markets. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um I'm going to leave though cuz I feel like I should say something I shouldn't. I wish I wasn't so pure cuz I shall need some more prep. >> Say it. >> Uh I'll find you at some point. I promise. All right. Um that sounds scary. Um yeah. Okay. Well, all right. Injective is hype for institutions. I mean maybe. Maybe. I mean, >> I'm trying to I'm trying to think if like, you know, how we oftentimes we we we we think about um you know, the people that come on the show are extremely smart, intelligent. We have people from all walks of life, all over the industry.

And often times, you know, Andy and I find ourselves kicking ourselves because we didn't take the trade that someone told us about on the show. And so, >> yeah, I mean, dude, how about not selling when you when it's time to sell? >> Yo, Blake is here. What up, man? We we met in Mkos. Yeah, we definitely we definitely had a 4-day full sender in Mkos. I'll tell you that was fun, man. Good to see you here. >> Um and so I'm just thinking back the last few days. I mean, we were kind of reluctant to think that they it was really going to play out this way, but we didn't take action, man. We didn't take action.

>> I know. I know. All right, guys. Bitcoin ran the lows. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Blake, good to see you in crypto, man. We're big uh hyperlid bulls on the show. It's kind of what we think is the is the main is the main hold right now. We're kind of getting to the levels on Bitcoin soon. You know, we're at 60K. I think anywhere between 40 and 60 if we get there. Blake, uh I know you're uh doing other entrepreneurial endeavors, but uh you know, probably probably good long term. Porting 2 million into SPX6900 soon. Dude, please do not do that, bro.

I'm telling you. Rocky, what's up, man? Good to see you here again. I have a bag of Injective. Can we please get a couple people into debate Injective? Yeah, we we can get Injective on. Yeah. Um, >> we've had them on before. >> But it'll never be hype. Hype. Nice. Great project. Yeah. I mean, we're bullish on hype. We don't really We're kind of past the memecoin era, I'd say. But I don't know. My general feel for you, man. I know you're busy. Is Bitcoin in these low levels? Park it away for a while and uh and move and move into hype uh at a at a good level. Anything in the 50s, I think, would be a bless. Uh, we're kind of there now. Low 50s, 40s would be sick. Hype is hype. Only competitor I see is maybe GTX. JTX.

Yeah, guys, there's no better than project than Hype Liquid around. All right, guys. Rob, it's time time to get into it. Today's topics, everything else. Let's go through the run of show, guys. And then we're going to cover some news, cover some charts, cover some screen shares, and then we're [snorts] going to have uh Ilia, Mert and Hib, and Josh from Zcash. That's going to be wild. So, let's get into it. First of all, Nixon 4. Nixon 4, baby. Yep. Game two tonight. The Knicks are up. Uh they're up one. Uh if you guys don't know the backstory behind this, our lovely intern told me that Male Bridges was traded for I think seven picks in like seven future draft picks. And so whenever he plays like

[ __ ] they always troll him. But when he's balling in the playoffs, they say, "Fuck them picks because this guy is a baller." Uh we got Ilia Mert and Josh from Zcash joining. And then we got Hid in the tokenization tower. As always, our topics are >> buying Bitcoin isn't the best play if you don't have much capital. I mean, this is continuously something that we hear about often because Bitcoin is, you know, it's it's perceived as expensive into Bitcoin here, >> right? But then you go further down the risk curve. I mean, I understand this concept. I also, you know, it's evidenced on crypto. Twitter doesn't own much Bitcoin. Um, and so if you have 30K of dry powder, what are you buying? If you have 10K dry power, you know, if if

you don't have much capital, you're probably not buying Bitcoin. But you're probably also thinking that, you know, we're going to find a bottom. Look, Andy, we were talking about before, you know, you had a little technical difficulty there. You came back. We were in the middle of a rant. We're talking about how the four-year cycle is on. We are in the middle of 2022, right? It is summer of 2022. If you go back a year ago, this is exactly where we are. And so, we've got a little bit of uh bottoming out to do. This is going to take some time. It feels like we're sort of, if we're not already there, we're almost at capitulation. We're going to get bare market rallies. But if you think back, you know, we had a mega run in 2024, 2023, there was winners. I

would go back and I would look at some of the categories that did well. what were some of the market conditions? And I would think to myself, okay, privacy, AI, and revenue are the categories that held up best when Bitcoin started to hover and find uh find its find its way. >> Yeah, >> these are the categories that I anticipate are going to perform the best when we do ultimately bottom out. But I wouldn't be catching knives, certainly not on leverage. And I'd be thinking, okay, who is leading in terms of these categories? And when the market does bottom out, what what what is the strategy to get in? But man, at this point, it just kind of feels >> somebody added Canton.

>> Dark Vox added CC here. I mean, we also hold Canton. We've been holding it for a while. It has not moved. >> It has not. But they are generating revenue apparently. I mean, I just don't really see how that revenue is getting shared back to the token. >> I hope Near drops close to a dollar. I'll back up the truck. Yeah, Near just kind of had the wind taken out of his sales a bit there. Like, it was ready to fly, right? And then it was just kind of like bang. Arthur just dropped a load on it. All right, guys. As always, our topics are powered by our friends at Treasure. Use code roll up 10 to get yourself a 10% off your favorite hauler wallet. treasure.io. Let's move into the weather. Then we're going to move into the news and the markets quickly here,

guys. Keep the show rolling. Let me tell you about FRA, our premier stablecoin partner. Use frack.com. The future of digital money, open, stable, and borderless. Guys, it is 85 degrees in New York. It's sweating. You can't see my pit stains today, but they are there. It's 83 degrees in the studio. We have a new fan over here. Uh [snorts] that is connected to some cold water that is supposed to be helping. We'll see what that does. Uh bought Salana today. Comments killed me. Don't forget near it's cheap. Um yeah, Rob, as always, our weather is powered by our friends at Relay. Use use relay.link link for your crosschain swaps and more.

Rob, you want to tell us about Near? >> Yeah, I think look, we uh >> Yeah, I'll tell I'll tell you guys about Near because uh there's some people talking about Near in the chat. They're doing incredible things with uh Near Intense and so they are our exclusive AI partner. >> Somebody bought Zcash at 700. Let me tell you about dinari, guys. Our tokenized equities partner here on the show bringing us stocks on chain. Use dinari.com guys. Check out what they're doing with their DShares product. Doing things the right way with tokenized equities. Rob, sorry. Tell us about near. Uh, somebody in the chat bought Zcash at 700 and asked if they're cooked.

>> Whoa. Um, I bought Zcash at 600. So, you know, we we're all going to make it. Uh, >> I can't lie, guys. I was >> Can I tell you guys about my loss? >> Can I open up a little bit? >> Go ahead. So, I was selling Zcash yesterday in the car on the way to Connecticut because I was scared because it was um it was moving into I was moving into Hypquid because I was like, "Look, this thing's going to hold up better. Probably should have just put into cash, but I forgot that I had the Zcash DAT on my Schwab account." And um yeah, the Zcash DAT is down 32% today. And uh you know, I had a nice little bag in there. You know, it was a little bit it was it was high five

figures. So you guys can do the math. So I I'm faced faced with that today. >> Yeah, we're all we're all faced with something today. It's a rough day out there in the markets, guys. Hold up. >> That's porn. >> Tell someone tell someone you love them. >> Give me people homies, man. >> Big yikes. Um, look, Mere Intent, I believe, generated hundreds of millions of dollars of volume. Did I get that right? Let me make sure I got that right. Cuz they just crossed 20 billion dollars of volume.

They did 600 million in the last seven days. They're doing six figures a day in fees and they're using that to buy back the token. what I'm looking for from these teams. You know, obviously Near is kind of in this privacy, AI, revenue category. They kind of, you know, they have their their tentacles in all three. When it comes to the revenue uh category, I'm looking for programmatic enforced commitments as to how you're using those fees. If you have revenue, it's no longer enough. We're seeing more and more teams have revenue. think that's a good start, but I want to see these revenues actually put back into the token, not just when you feel like it. I

want to see pre-commitments enforced on chain program programmatically. And that I think is what it's going to take in order for teams to actually reap the rewards of using their fees and revenue and putting it into the token. >> Yeah, that's been the biggest differentiator, right? is like, "Okay, we we make this money, but then we kind of sometimes buy back or not." Actually, uh there was a comment on our page from the video with uh the near guy yesterday, Sing like, "Yo, he didn't answer about the pre-commit uh pre-commitment question." Maybe he's not like the exact guy to answer that question. But yeah, that's why Hyperlid's amazing. I have literally people trolling me right now. And then we come to find out that C Money Music

did not actually buy Zcash of 700 and I just opened up about my loss and I'm getting absolutely trolled. As always, the digital asset market is powered by our friends at Zama. Visit zama.org to learn more about what they are doing in the privacy space. Another contender. We're going to get into the news, guys. Before we do, let me tell you about Near, our premier AI partner, the blockchain for AI. Use near.com for your best private portfolio on chain. And guys, before we get the Zcash people in, we got to talk about what happened. So, we just found out that uh Josh is um >> not coming to the show, unfortunately.

He has to reschedule. He's obviously a little preoccupied right now. >> And so, we're gonna get Mert and Mert can speak to the situation. Yeah. Um, but effectively, you know, they and and look, >> the question that I was left with after I didn't read Josh's report, but I read Zuko's, the question that I was left with is how many protocols out there right now are facing this exact same thing and it was a really really scary thought. And so for for you know just to summarize what happened here um the Shielded Labs Corporation which is a development company of Zcash hired a very intelligent white hat hacker to search for vulnerabilities using AI and

try to beat malicious actors to the punch. And turns out it worked. they were able to detect this vulnerability and uh they implemented a patch on June 1st and it took them you know once they discovered it they implemented it very quickly. The issue is that it's not 100% certain that this thing wasn't exploited previously to that patch. And so now and I think this is why Josh isn't able to join the show is because he's working with his engineering team. There's going to be a there's a potential hard fork there. It has to pass Zcash governance, but the implementation plan of this is is proposed to be a hard fork that would allow the accounting of Zcash because

remember this is a privacy, you know, confidentiality enabled protocol. >> And so you we aren't really sure whether this fake Zcash exists out there in the world right now. But with a hard fork, there would be an accounting protocol implemented that would allow us to 100% certain prove that this exploit was not done. In which case, no harm, no foul. There was a vulnerability. Could have been really, really bad. We don't think that it was really, really bad. We don't think any fake Zcash was minted. We're not really sure. So, we're moving forward. We can actually do this hard fork that would allow us to prove that nothing was h nothing was exploited. in which case we patched the vulnerability. No harm, no foul. Again,

the I think Zcash is on the right track with this. They're obviously in some murky water right now until there is 100% certainty that this vulnerability was not exploited. But the thought that I'm left with is I all protocols need to do this. They all need to hire white hats. They all need to be attacking their own protocols with AI tools to make sure that they catch these vulnerabilities before money is stolen. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Mert's going to come on and say the same thing. Mer's going to come on and say that this was not an exploit and basically that in the next upgrade it will be you'll be able to see

that it would it would you know it's it's not that bad basically. Um we got to come together as Americans or it's going to be dog eats dog all races. Got got to drop the efie ASAP. I'm gone. All right. Well, it's nice to see you here buddy. Um, is Monero the king of kings again? >> 21 million x proof of work truly private? I don't know. >> It's not truly private. They have the the ring signatures were proven not to be super confidential. There was an IRS backdoor fluffy pony has talked about all this. There was speculation that he was a double agent. There's all kinds of things that say that Monero is not the answer here.

>> Really? >> Oh yeah. Oh yeah. This was I mean and Arthur talks about this too as part of his Zcash thesis but effectively the the privacy technology that Monero had was called RingCT. So Ring signatures and it was proven that it was not as privately sec the security of it was not as private as previously thought and so that was part of the Zcash thesis and you know there was a lot of movement from Monero to Zcash. Um, but I think Zcash is still the stronger protocol here. Maybe that's the controversial opinion now, but if they come out and they prove that this vulnerability was not exploited to me, no harm, no foul.

Yeah. I mean, it's there's irreversible brand damage right now, man. like, >> you know, and I say this as someone who's holding my debt co of Zcash down 32% today. >> You're still holding. >> So, yeah. So, irreversible brand damage here. All right, let's keep it moving. Um, over $500 million liquidated from the market in the last hour. This was this morning at 6:00 a.m. I think. What that was when we had Bitcoin wicked all the way down to 59 or like 60 low 60.

>> I mean this is according to 61 100. Bitcoin is under that now. >> Yeah. So huge wipeout today. I don't know who in their right mind was longing in this market with leverage but certainly couldn't be us. Um we just prefer to lose money in spot. I mean I mean that that's the preferred route. The preferred route is to lose money in spot or or in dados. Those are those are always two good options there. Um, don't have much to say here. I mean, ETH price is extremely low and it probably is going lower. [snorts] Um, I think that it's still it is like ETH breaking Ethereum crashes to $200 billion market cap. It's like, okay, you know, I think um

the launch of this preferred by Bitmine >> is either going to make it or break it like for Bit. >> Yeah. and ETH kind of I mean we know the ETH foundation is cooked. There needs to be a a newcomer that is going to be yeah you know leading uh value creation from a you know from an organized entity perspective. Um and so we need to we need to have that if ETH is going to succeed and Bitmine is in position to do that. But if they launch this preferred and it doesn't get filled or I mean they're doing this and they're down like 10 bill >> I know >> which is insane. And so if they're able to fill this round on this preferred stock at 10 bill unrealized loss, then I

think it means that there's pretty much nothing that can break them. And then they're gonna they're going to raise it. If they can raise it at 10 bill unrealized loss, they can raise it in any market conditions. And they're actually going to raise this while the ETH price is significantly >> significantly depressed, which is actually great. Hopefully they can lower their cost basis by quite a bit, you know. >> Um that'd be great for them. and you know get a better cost basis, >> but they're only doing 300 mil. >> Yeah. >> And they need they're need a lot more to get the cost down.

>> Yeah. >> Guys, do you like the new uh overlays? Do you guys like the like the vibe of it? Do you guys like you got the RWA down there? The um God is mega outperforming solid robotics play. Never heard of it. Do you guys like the RWA, the crypto uh tickers, the sponsor, the vibe? Do do you guys [ __ ] with it or let us know what what you think? I can I can I I can also do this. I can also load you guys up some headlines. Push it live. Boom. How about that? How about that? You guys got the headlines there at the top now. Kind of scrolling through different news topics and things. Turn it off.

Boom. So, all right guys, let's keep it rolling into our guy Simon Taylor. Before we do, let me tell you about our D5 partner, Infinifi, leading the DeFi market. Onchain yield with no leverage, a capital efficiency, highest yields in D5. Visit infinifi.xyz to learn more about what they're doing there. Simon Taylor says JP Morgan, City, Bank of America, and Wells Fargo building a shared blockchain to keep deposits from leaving the banking systems. The clearing house will run it. Target launches the first half of 2027.

and Rob, I mean, we're pretty much we pretty much knew that this like banking overlay was coming um and or or this banking blockchains were coming and it was only a matter of time. This was also like the ETH bull thesis was like all these banks were going to build on Ethereum. But I think it's kind of clear that well it's kind of shocking that they're actually going to do it together, these different banks. But I guess if they all come to an agreement then it makes sense for them. >> Yeah. And so he says, "Interestingly, this appears to be led by being defensive rather than clients. At least according to some quotes, Bank of America's head of global payments, Mark Monaco, told the Wall Street Journal that clients are aren't beating down the door for token tokenized deposits. The

reason they're building it anyway sits in what they walked away from." Scroll down a little bit. A year ago, the same group explained a joint bank stable coin through the clearing house and the operator of zel, they dropped it and picked a blockchain for deposits instead. >> Well, these things aren't mutually exclusive. You can launch a blockchain and a stable coin. >> Uh, remember deposits are money that stays still. They sit on the bank's balance sheet as a claim you hold against the bank. Stable coins are money that moves, a bare instrument that can leave your bank on Saturday and settle somewhere else by Sunday. Hm. Okay.

Look, I I think this is man, I want to I it's a little bit reductive to just, you know, kind of sum this up as bullish or bearish, but effectively, look, more of this onchain. I I tend to think a a dollar that stays digital and onchain, a dollar that's generated onchain is going to stay on chain. I think that is ultimately going to be bullish because we know we're rerating a lot of these protocols, these companies for the onslaught of digital onchain assets. And so that's uh that is something that I think we're going to keep in mind.

Okay. Well, um I'm I don't really have a take on the banking blockchains. Um there's kind of just there and um yeah I mean they're just kind of there. Oh the all the way is okay. I can't really read any of the tickers. Okay. Interesting. Yeah there there there's a lot of tickers. >> Is it too small? Tell us tell us what you guys you know we we're going to implement the feedback from you guys. If it's too small, if you guys don't like the tickers, tell us the data that you want on there and we will make >> do one of these guys. We can do one of these here. I can show you guys this. So you can combine it all into one line and then boom.

>> Wow. >> Then you've got them under there like that. >> There we go. >> So that works too. And then you can go back into multiple lines. You can turn stocks off. >> Very small. I like the multiple lines, but maybe we'll just increase the font size a little bit so that people watching on their phone can uh can still read the tickers. >> Yeah, very small. Cool. All right, guys. Let's move move into Anthropic and Claude's news. Uh, anthrop is calling for a global pause in AI development. One that models are approaching the ability to self-improve without human intervention. This comes after the fact of well I mean this comes after Zcash.

I mean that's the reality here. I think um I mean is it worthwhile and maybe we can do this in our tokenized equity segment for the day but I think it's important that you know we kind of understand what is happening in these IPOs now. Now, I think the stock market is telling us that these things are super skittish. The market is super skittish for these things to launch. And so, we're going to have to um [sighs] man, we're going to have to uh adjust here because >> Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, the anthropic lady, one of the Daario and then the lady who's also high up in the company came out and said like, um, we're basically going out to raise capital with this IPO

because, uh, it's costing a lot of money to develop these AI models and like we need to raise more money. And I people were a bit spooked by that. They were like, well, is this them saying that, you know, that we're reaching the end of the AI capex spend and we need to go get liquidity from elsewhere? People were kind of people were a little bit a little bit spooked by that. This is that is anthropics marketing tactic. Let's move on, please. Ticker is way too small. Okay, we got you guys on the tickers and we we can only do so many. You know what I mean? Um, great podcast.

Thank you, MK Motivation. Um, yeah, that is anthropics marketing tactic. I agree. Trying to make it seem like they are so so advanced in the industry. Um, we're going to get into a chopping block clip. Uh but before we do guys, let me tell you about our crosschain partner, LeFi. Uh bridging swapping across multiple chains, universal access for digital assets on chain. Guys, let's get into the chopping block. Hyperlid. Let's just get straight to the video. Bucket shopization of an exchange, small components. The key innovation is that no one has copied its distribution. This is builder codes. Um that is kind of like what they're talking about here.

this idea that that you can just have these builder codes that allow them to scale through hyperlid phantom etc. Let's hear the bull case of hyperlquid from Tun a friend of the show. I mean I think the key thing key innovation for Hyperlid that no one has copied is distribution obviously like between getting other people like MetaMask or Phantom distributing your product between people distributing assets in the HIP 3 and I guess soon hip four world. I think no one in crypto has ever pulled off that type of distribution play. Like I think like an L1 is supposed to do that, right? But an

L1 is like too almost too many counterparties that you have to agree get to agree whereas like they somehow found a way to do it without complexity. And I I think the other PERS exchanges obviously are trying to do the same thing. But it if you're the first one and you're the one mentioned in Congress all the time, it's like it is I feel like it's very hard to imagine that you don't end up trying to go in the US. >> Yeah. So, Circle did a pretty good job arranging distribution for themselves, but uh in a decentralized context. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. I I I guess I mean more of the like you can build new markets on there, but it's not like you have to rebuild everything from scratch.

like sort of it's like it's like somewhere in between a blockchain where you have to write >> the full stack and like someone giving you a bunch of SDKs and APIs that are like like you only get certain amount of input. I think that's arguably why HPV failed in a lot of ways is like no one wanted the full programmable thing at that I'm gonna get roasted for saying that but >> I think it's the one thing you might not get roasted for given [clears throat] everything else but like it's it's very clear that Hyperlid where they are their strongest is where they lean into just pure markets and using the Hyperlid infrastructure at its best as opposed to >> but also not building everything themselves.

>> Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Exactly. But also try like not trying to be just a generalized platform. the the generalized platform part of hyperlquid is not what's worked. What's worked is the market specific platform. We're a platform for new listings and new markets and and uh you know order books of all kinds >> and that's where clearly it has this tremendous staying power and a lot of entrepreneurial activity like we see it all the time. We still get tons of pitches for people building stuff on Hyperlid. Increasingly they're not building on HyperVM. increasingly they're just like hey we're gonna launch a hip three hip four whatever on a b c d efg whatever all sorts of the universe of financial instruments and being able to attract that kind of capital formation on top of your very constrained platform of like look this

is you have a little spot in our order book here you go is incredible it's an incredible testament like I I never seen anybody else >> it's like the bucket chopization of like an exchange right because an exchange is usually like integrated as like one and it's like I've partitioned it into small components where I have like distributors who are getting order flow who are sort of like prime brokers but not really and then I have market creators who are like you know some some category of users I have like unit as like the spot and it's like unbundled exchange right and like sold off some portion of it >> so I mean my take is that they're right

and that we had 40 on the show and he was saying that Hyper EVM is not like a failed thing. It's just not got it's like unrealized potential. >> Mhm. >> And that's you know this is kind of what they're saying right they're basically saying like the all the in innovation and all of that is happening on hyper core. That's where everybody wants to be and that's what needs to kind of like form the future of what's happening and no one really wants to build on HyperVm.

They only want to build on Hyper Core. And I think it makes sense. I think it makes a ton of sense. So I agree kind of like with the general framing here. And if I'm a builder, if I'm an investor, I'm really just focused on Hyper Core. It's where the best performance is. It's where all the money is being made. It's where all the trading is happening. There's not much to be paying attention to. there. There's not like a whole huge need to like jump and build on Hyper EVM. But maybe I'm wrong and maybe it's still early. Maybe there's there's like Hyper EVM season that comes, but I wouldn't be counting on it. I'd be if I'm a builder, I'm building on Hyper Core.

>> So, are you totally out of Hyperlid? >> No, can't ever be. >> Still still holding Pur or Hype Spot or where you at right now? >> I'm in I'm good. Why are you pocket watching? >> I'm not p I'm not asking about size. I'm just curious where your bias lies. >> This guy's pocket watching. >> Where's your bias? Who's actually on Hyperlquid that shouldn't be like bad actors? There should there's no KYC. So why wouldn't North Korea open an account and start pumping and dumping equities like they do crypto? I mean, they don't really have that much money. And C Money says, "Who cares? Let them." Like I like the libertarian part of me says, "Yeah, let let whoever trade man point." This

is I mean this is the regulation conversation in the US. I I think we're going to be faced with a few different paths for hyperlquid. Uh if they want to serve US customers, they're going to have to do so in a regulated way. I think hyperl core because they don't want to fracture their order book. they're going to have to implement some sort of regulatory compliance or they're going to get a hyperlquid US and a hyperl liquid core and we'll fragment liquidity price uh execution won't be as good as it could be. So, we've got some some decisions to be made with respect to the uh the hyperlquid ecosystem.

>> Okay, let's go quickly into Arthur and then we got our daily equity segment. Um here we go. Holy Trinity is dead sadly due to the orchard pool exploit. I had to dump our entire Zcash bag. No shock there. No surprise there. 100% on a few different paths. Nailed it. Yes, I think that Rob's right there was on the hyperlquid side and Kyle Soman's been coming out trying to dunk on everyone about it. Um anyway, I mean, I don't have much to say about this on Arthur, guys. I mean, we all knew that this guy is in it for a little bit, pump his bags up, and then, you know, he's out when it's time. It'll tell you it's a 5x, a 20x, 50x, and then he'll be out.

>> So that's in real time. That's the sound of Arthur leaving Zcash in real time. [snorts] >> Look, I'm like playing for this. I still kind of like Arthur. >> He changes his mind. He comes on. He calls for a 20x. He tries to pump his bags. What does he say? I'm a businessman, not a priest. Get out of here. Look, the Holy Trinity. Um, yeah. I mean, the vulnerability is not fun. We're going to hear from Mert about a lot more of this 30% dump made me rethink my mental model. >> Yeah, >> we've rethink thought our mental model on this show quite a bit over the last 48 hours on Hyperlid on on a lot of these things.

>> Um, but we've got two of the guys that are uh oh, I guess before we bring up two of the guys that are best uh in the know on on Near and Zcash, >> uh we're going to cut over to the daily equity segment of today. >> Yep. Uh why don't we go ahead and do that because we've got our friends at Tenari powering our daily equity segment we'll be sharing with you guys. [music] Google plans to use 30 billion of its $80 billion equity raise to cover tax obligations tied to employee stock awards. this that that represents 40% of

the raise which is now about double last year's level and about 14% of expected operating cash flow. This is a daily equity Google's own employees are getting large options in stock and they've if you've been there for a while these are probably a significant part of their net worth. They [snorts] have a lot a lot of equity uh to cover Google's using that capital to cover tax obligations. My read on this is they knew that this was going to be part of what they were going to spend the capital on and they budgeted accordingly. I would not, you know, I wouldn't expect anything less out of a massive public company. I think this is more or less a nothing burger,

but perhaps is not what they wanted to see from their um you know, kind of raise and and and what happened there. So my take is this. They probably knew that this was coming. In fact, they definitely knew that they were going to have to do this. Google's in a fine spot. This is business as usual. Employees have these massive stock option programs. That's what they expect. That's my take on daily equity today. >> I think that's the right take. Um yeah, I mean I remember when they were doing this equity raise and they were offering these corporate bonds. They were raising a bunch of capital uh to fuel more capex. Uh look, we're going to have to see the outcome of this capex. This is the AI bottleneck trade that we're we're seeing. Um stock market got absolutely wiped. Uh what are we

>> what are we seeing out there? >> Yeah. What what is it looking like? >> Down 2% today. 1.8%. The S&P. Um I saw there was almost a trillion dollars of market value wiped out at the low of today. I think we bounced a teensy tiny bit up higher. Uh Russell is down almost 3%. NASDAQ's down 3%. Dow Jones down a percent. >> Yikes. >> So, it's rough out there. And this comes on the heels of the the positive job numbers. I think we added almost double the expected amount of jobs in uh unemployment stayed even uh right in line with expectations. Yet, the stock market absolutely dumped. I think our quant was correct and the most honest

asset in the world was signaling to us that there was some skittishness in the market. And so if the market dumps on what is better than expected and you have I mean >> you're not going to get that much better than expected where you you're you're going to bounce off that. But that that's where we're at right now. Uh things that are expected are actually bearish but then we have this irrationality. It's tough out there. I think we're going to see more of this as we get this liquidity suck out via these IPOs. That I think is the the elephant in the room. We have to think that these IPOs are going to smash you $75 billion from SpaceX on Hyperlid SpaceX is

dropping and there's concern or consideration that maybe they're having trouble raising the 75 billion. Uh but the theory is that people are going to sell their existing stock to buy the new coin or new tickers, right? the new shiny thing which is going to be SpaceX, Anthropic, Open AAI, these other IPOs. Y um and that's where the money is going to come from which is going to bring those down. Those things are going to launch. Who knows what they do once they launch. Uh but then there's going to be insiders that are going to dump and where are they going to rotate? Maybe they rotate into our bags.

>> I think I think there is a reasonable going out on the risk curve buying Bitcoin from the AI investing in investment group. So that's our daily equity powered by our friends at guys. We've got Ilia and Mert in the back. They're going to come join us now. We're going to be talking about what happened with Zcash, the Zcash bug. What's happened there? How it's happening? Why it's happening? What's going on? Who's at fault? What actually happened? Why the price is down? Hunter Biden just tweeted hyperlquid.

I did see that. I did I did see that as well. Hunter Biden did just tweet hyperlquid >> guys. Uh that's hyperlquid but this segment is about Zcash and everything that's going on because there is a lot going on. Uh Josh Twiart was going to join us but he's got his hands full. I think working on some next steps and he said that he didn't want to be handwavy with what he said on the show today. But Mert is going to come out swinging. I'll tell you guys that. Let's get Ilia and Mert up. This is the time of the day. This is the show of the day. Ilia Mr. guys, welcome back.

>> Hello. Hello. Hey. Hey. >> Hello. Hello. All right, we're not going to bury the lead here. I mistakenly, idiotically, some could say utterly, stupidly tweeted that the Zcash exploit is terrifying. M. Why is this not an exploit? Why am I [ __ ] What actually happened here? and talk to us about just kind of give us the explanation as long as you need to go what happened. >> Sure. Well, um fundamentally there's two groups of people here. One are the people uh who were aware that this was a risk with ZK based privacy protocols and then everybody else, right? And so I

think you would probably fall into the into the latter. Um but um uh I I had um like the way to think about this is that with any privacy protocol that employs ZK circuits but not necessarily even ZK circuits just different types of math. For example, Monero has similar issues although they are different class but counterfeiting all the same. [snorts] Um and Bitcoin actually has had a similar issue in the past as well. The main difference here is of course it's much harder to detect if you have a fully private pool, right? And so really the only way you can detect a supply issue is by having these things called turn styles which count the uh net difference between what goes in versus what goes

out. So obviously if uh they're structured in such a way that you can't have more than what went in go out, right? So it's supply control in that sense. Um, now this is not new information to Zcash people and a fair amount of investors I would say especially ones who've been around for some time. Uh, like even like four months ago, 6 months ago, eight months ago, a year, I always kind of have the same debate on Twitter with Bitcoin people about like, well, Bitcoin would never do this because they care about the auditability of the supply. And I'm like, well, that is a soluble problem with things like formal verification and um uh like better audits and and and

just making the arithmetic for ZK circuits simpler. And so it's always kind of this back and forth. So this is like a pretty well-known tradeoff on the risk spectrum. The problem of course is that um a lot of the new people were not aware of this risk. And this was made worse by two things. Uh, one is that people tweeted that well actually somebody just vibecoded an exploit with AI which is of course not what happened. Um, what happened is it was a highly technical and highly domain knowledgeable uh, auditor who knows Zcash better than almost anybody in the in the world. Uh, and and he was explicitly tasked to helping uh, patch bugs if he found anything of the sort.

So that's what happened. And it wasn't like a cuz like other people would have already found it by then. Um including other cryptographers who are world class who already work on Zcash, right? Um and then the other one of course is that the price went down a ton. Now there's a few reasons for this. One is that there was a network upgrade which made it such that some people actually like Binance for example disabled deposits which [snorts] kind of delayed the price movement right when everything nuked uh like yesterday and the day before in the crypto markets. Zcash didn't do because it literally couldn't. Um but then now you combine that with the huge sell-off of the market today, right? Like um QQQ I believe uh NASDAQ is down the most

it's been since April 2025, right? So there's like a huge selloff and panic everywhere. You combine all of obviously it was the only coin that was still really up and it's just really fun to beat down in that case, right? And so you kind of have this mass hysteria. Uh and then it just keeps piling on and on and on. Uh and so that's that's kind of where we are today. [sighs] Okay. So people were saying there's infinite supply in a shielded pool and somebody was just teapping out every time this asset was trading around the $600, $700 mark. uh that there was just like this supply that was just infinite that you know was always hitting the

market. It from what I understand is do we even know if there was if there is this double spend bug or do we need to wait for the next upgrade to know? >> Right? So it just depends on um like your it really just depends on what kind of risk spectrum you're looking for. Right? So if you want full verifiability and full trustlessness like I want to know this for myself. I'm not going to trust anybody. Um then you would have to wait until the next upgrade [snorts] which I think actually they will release some uh communications on it in a few hours. So it should be pretty soon. Um in which case basically what will happen

is the pool uh the funds from the old pool will go to the new pool as people withdraw and deposit. and then if there was an exploit you would know because a turn style would um explicitly flag it. Now some other people including myself make the game theoretical argument that look if you look at the trend of the shielded supply. So for example somebody said that well somebody has been minting an infinite amount of notes in the shielded pool and then paying off all the kos who then do the marketing. Um well if that were the case then the shielded pool would certainly not increase in size right and it it did increase in size this whole time right

and again the turn style would also be triggered so then somebody will say something like well actually they would be super sophisticated and would only sell a certain amount and such whatnot and it's like look first of all they're racing against other people who would have also found the exploit second it's not in the nature of any hacker that I've seen in crypto to hide until like they don't gamble on the right? You it goes from 800 to 200 three times in the span. So they're either the most diamond-handed person in crypto history or there's something else to it, right? And so but again, you can you can never trust me on this. What you will have to do is wait until the next upgrade to verify this for yourself.

>> And and just to close the loop here that the next or I did you have something to add here? >> Well, I just wanted to mention like Zcash had this situation before, right? In 20 I think 19 the sapling pool also had something similar where the core team found out that there is a kind of like left you know unconstrained and effectively you know assets were moved out out of that pool into new pool there was no uh indication of uh any exploit right so I think like this has happened it is obviously very unfortunate but it is not like you know something like this would usually be as customer said like pretty evident from behavior versus Yeah. Like you you wouldn't expect a

hacker to also be a Zcash bull that is, you know, paying off Kos to to pump it. >> Yeah. Yeah. That seems like an unlikely scenario. And so, you know, given that this happened before, the process will essentially replicate, you know, the the network upgrade mer that you're describing, you know, we'll [snorts] we'll we'll create this this new pool. We'll move everything to this new pool. If everything moves to the new pool and the turn style is not triggered and we know that there's no, you know, vulnerability that was exploited, then kind of no harm, no foul. Zcash isn't dead. Everything continues operating as usual.

Well, it's actually better than that because once this happens, then the next upgrade that comes after that is the Tachon upgrade. And what's new about Tachon upgrade is that the ZK circuits will be much simpler arithmetic, which means less nonlinear complexity um for people to like hide bugs, but also it'll be provably sound. It'll use formal verification to mathematically prove that the system behaves exactly as described. It will also be quantum proof and so and like that is a very huge undertaking and that's been in the works for actually a year and a half to two years already. So it'll be timed pretty nicely to like help derisk this narrative that you're now seeing. Right.

And like the final thing I'll say on this or maybe not final unless you have more questions is like fundamentally speaking um this the timing here is not an accident, right? There's a reason why you've seen all these recent DeFi exploits as well. And the one big difference between um all the vulnerabilities that are still hiding out there in the rest of crypto and DeFi and a privacy pool is that in in theory, privacy pools are much harder to detect. right now. In practice though, what I've seen on different ecosystems is that even when people determine or uh uh detect the exploit, the hackers generally are fast enough, as you've

seen in Drift and the other hacking scenarios, that they get away with it regardless. So that's like another game theoretical argument. And so fundamentally speaking, all of crypto needs to start doing um formal verification, simpler arithmetic, and open source software. And that's really fundamentally how we're all going to get out of this. >> Um Mer, just something from the from the chat here. How do you know what's verified safe or is it until someone else finds a new flaw? Is this um so if this is referring to the new orchard upgrade so like the immediate one that's coming up um well then so I would say yeah you can since that's not formally verified it's the

same risk as for example a smart contract on a different blockchain where you're trusting that the smart contract isn't completely [ __ ] Um, one thing I'll add to that though is that the reason this was found is because um, the core teams behind the scenes have started vastly increasing resources to red team their own protocol. That is to say, there is half a dozen to more auditors with super advanced AI tools constantly looking to break the [ __ ] out of this before anybody else can. So that's actually like why the timing here is is such such that it is. And so that is the risk that is present until um project hakon goes live which is slated to be early uh autumn late summer for

when the formal verified version of this will go live. Ilia, I just want to give you a chance as well to add on to the formal verification side of things. Just like your your thoughts on why that's so important for for Zcash for privacy for near and confidential intents kind of what is the you know break down the the formal verification solution for why privacy onchain can can be possible with this technology. So I actually wrote a blog post almost a year ago that was saying that we are approaching an Armageddon in vulnerabilities uh and the only way to solve it is for

verification and so we've seen this effectively ramping up since I guess like October November when you know first OPUS came out and effectively all the models capabilities kind of made a jump and uh we continue seeing this kind of throughout like April and May now of just [snorts] like the the AI tools are getting better and better and yes you can use them for good which I mean in this case the auditor was uh and and you know same on near side you know we have everybody effectively equipped with AI systems to scan to find vulnerabilities to kind of uh audit code as it comes out but same time uh we've seen you know

pretty crazy hacks happening right um across across ecosystems. And so forification is the only way where you can actually guarantee up to the level of the what you specified that it's working correctly. And there's actually interesting ways how the specification itself should work. And one of the positions we took is you actually want the specification almost be on the level of a transaction. And so I think for Zcash and for shielded pool it's very much possible to say hey I want to prove that when I put money into the shielded pool I will be able to withdraw it at all times with and you know the total supply of the token effectively stays

the same right and so if you prove that like it's a very simple property I want to put money in I can withdraw them out and total supply stays the same you effectively proved everything around this to to like prove that property and so I think that's a very like fundamental where almost like your wallet your client software your you know uh explorer can prove those properties to you in a very kind of human understandable way and now underneath there's a lot of mass you know make sure the code runs the runtimes run like there's a lot of hard work to make this happen and AI will do the hard work to be clear um but the kind of the properties we want to prove are pretty simple and so because there's

a lot of like additional file on formification now that says like hey but what if the spec is wrong? What if there's something wrong? And so that's kind of my point there. We can make spec from your perspective you want to make sure uh some properties hold. >> Yeah. And and that's crucial in this kind of like private environment to be able to have that verifiable proof that there wasn't this kind of like infinite mint that now feels like a bit like like people are calling it an irreversible you know damage to Zcash. I'm you know Mr. I know you don't feel that way, but I mean people are saying that there was just years on end of this infinite mint happening and this formal verification

technology seems to be the the solution to enable privacy at scale while also having that provable verifiability. >> Mer, before you go ahead, it also sounds like we're going to get an answer here. Like there's going to be a network upgrade, there's going to be a new pool, we're going to find out whether this infinite mint actually happened. Yeah, exactly. I mean like again this is not the first time this has happened in cryp I mean for for example this actually happened twice on Salana last year um uh with with the ZK circuits and we actually disabled the future um for for um it was for confidential transfers. Uh it happened in Zcash's future. I mean Zcash has three pools for a reason right now. Uh it happened in Monero. It happened in Bitcoin. Um this

this stuff can happen. But like the thing that gives me confidence with Zcash is that and and [snorts] this is also why I'm relatively bearish on privacy protocols that are built on as smart contracts on um like a like um um different type of solutions because unless you have some auditability. So for example, near confidential stuff has some auditability built in. So like if something happens, you can actually find out. But like some of these things don't and they kind of frame it as an ideological thing, but it's actually not that because the thing that gives you confidence about Zcash is that you have literally the best cryptographers like the people who actually pioneered ZK Snarks looking at it at all times with a

concentration of scrutiny and security. [snorts] And so and and then you know again I made the game theoretical argument. Some people don't like the argument so I'm not going to keep making it. But like you said, it will be you will be able to determine it in the next uh upgrade. I I fundamentally don't think it's irreversible in any way. Now, if there is an exploit, like if the turn style does trigger, that obviously is a big hit and that would really really complicate things depending on the severity, right? Like for example, if it was used to exploit like I don't know a million versus $500 million, that's a big difference. Will >> will we know the amount as well?

>> But fundamentally, you You'll have a a range of the amount, but you won't know the exact amount unless the entire pool empty. So, for example, um assume that orchard right now has a billion dollars in it, and assume it goes down to $10 million and the turn style is still not triggered. Well, then you know that it's at least contained to the amount still remaining in that pool. But unless the entire pool exits, you'll never know deterministically for that exact $10 million remaining as well. Anyway, the way I think of this of course is you invest based on future expectations and time horizons, right?

So assuming there is no uh issue that is found with the new migration and assuming that you now have Tachion coming with formal verification, well then now you have a risk profile that is orders of magnitude different than it was before. Now obviously that also means you know depending on how degenerate you are, the risk profile also looks much different, right? uh because now people who took on that risk took on that risk and won. But then some people don't want to do that, right? It's just completely dependent on who you are as a independent investor. >> M one one last question on you know the way in which this is going to move forward and and you mentioned that you know this new pool gets created the Zcash that's currently in the orchid pool is going to move to the new pool.

If if we get all the way down, you know, from a billion in the old moves to the new, we're left with say, you know, 10 million, for example. I is that movement a manual process that everyone that is currently in the pool is going to have to go to the pool, click a few buttons, move their assets. Is there, you know, a a potential that, you know, someone died, someone lost their keys, lost their wallet, right? Like that would stay in the old pool. >> Correct. Yes. So that is that is a good point. So what will happen? So there's actually a few uh there's actually a silver lining here in that you know people kind of troll Zcash for having optional uh transparency. Uh but it just so happens that most people actually

trade based on the the transparent pool. Um so like when you see it on Salana or Binance it's a transparent pool that you're interacting with. And almost the VA I would say almost all maybe not all but like 90% 80% of it of the shielded pool interactions are through the zodal wallet like formerly called Zashi because those are the guys who made it normal to be able to interact with the privacy pool. And so what will happen and I'm speculating here but I'm relatively sure is the Zoda will have an upgrade. It'll give you a push notification and it'll say, "Okay, migrate your friends to the new pool." It will not be a full stack entire migration. So, for example, if

you have 5,375 Zack, you're not going to unshield that and then reshield it right back because that'll completely expose your privacy. What will probably happen is it'll be in set amount and everybody will do like batches of like a 100 Zack or a thousand Zack or something like this. And so, nobody's privacy will be exposed. And then if my math is correct in that it is probably 80% of users that are zodal users that make up that pool then you'll get the certainty of that money which is the vast majority of the money. But uh I mean yeah if people are literally [ __ ] dead or lost their keys then their stuff will just stay there. Um but again like that doesn't give the attacker any more leverage because the turn style keeps track of the inputs and

outputs. >> Okay. Okay. Okay. So, the most likely scenario here is that there's a nonzero amount left in the or orchid pool. >> Yeah. I mean, so sapling still has money, right? And sapling was effectively deprecated like five, six years ago. >> And it's Yeah. It's like some people lost money, some people, but like at that point it's kind of a, you know, rounding error. >> Yeah. The important thing is that there is no infinite like the way this was worded is kind of confusing because people assume there is an infinite mint bug for all of Zcash, but that is not correct. It is an infinite double spend problem within the orchard pool itself, >> right?

>> But once most of that capital leaves it, then it'll be completely contained. And so like it's it's it's just not like you know the I already made this point but like when people are like oh well somebody was just minting an infinite amount of Ze and selling into the market it's like well then how did the price go up right like if if somebody's selling an infinite amount of coins was somebody also buying an infinite amount of coins to to move the price up like it just there's some math that doesn't math here. >> Yeah. And and so kind of switching gears here, Ilia, like Zcash was, you know, obviously a a piece of um you know, an asset that was transacted quite a bit on Near Intense. Um looking at what Near Intense is is doing today, is there anything that you have to do in order to

you know maintain the confidentiality when things are going and using confidential near intense? Is there any adjustments that you have to make into the near intense protocol in order to adjust for this upgraded Zcash? >> So few few things on near intense side. So one is first of all in past two days we actually had net inflow into Zcash uh through near intense. So people are uh buying in. I think the as price was going down people who who believe in protocol are are coming in which is uh which is exciting to see. The second thing is we actually do support going directly in and out of shielded pool. So we will need to adjust and and obviously

we paused that uh to adjust to the new pool uh and obviously we'll be waiting for the takon um to to kind of really support that and I think from our side I mean what Mer mentioned right we've took a position that we want this auditability uh both because we don't want to facilitate crime and and like when you talk about trading being this is usually where the crime is happening. So we kind of have a higher bar than you know just having an asset and at the same time you know we want to continue expanding what the confidentiality offers right lending and and other use cases

and so the kind of near intense confidentiality itself right has auditability we you know running our kind of AI based shield system to effectively propagate if there's any like risk uh analysis from the incoming transactions it. So there's like a lot more machinery running kind of inside our shielded pool in a way >> um to effectively enable uh kind of understanding that the whole system is functioning correctly. And so I think like for us, yeah, it it's a lot, you know, monitoring situation uh with Zcash and making sure we support support the team [snorts] uh as as they upgrade uh and then offer everyone a

place to kind of have confidentiality for all your assets on confidential intents. >> Yeah. Uh Garrett says, "M sipping Hinekin on the stream is the best legend." Um M. So we're going to get an outcome here, right? Um, can you just please explain to us what you think the not to turn into like investing terms but more of just like where the protocol goes like bare case, bull case, what like what should the community how should the community think about each of the scenarios from like a long-term protocol perspective? I don't think you're going anywhere regardless, but people want to know kind of like the course of action given what the

information will be from the outcome. Like when we're thinking about what the outcome is going to be, what's like your, you know, maximum optimistic case, thus kind of back to business as regular, what what's kind of the more kind of bare or pessimistic case? And how do we build back uh, you know, if we're there somewhere in the middle? >> Sure. So, I can tell you what I'm doing personally, right? Because so, so, first of all, like I'm not going to I'm not going to [ __ ] sell. Like, if if you go to bat for a protocol, uh, and you you live by the sword, you just die by the sword, okay? Uh, there is no desertion happening here. I already did this with Salana. Um, fundamentally, no new information has surfaced except for

the fact that one less bug exists. This is how I think of it in my own head. People can disagree. I don't care. Okay. So you then look at the different types of possibilities. Okay. So let's think of the worst possible case. The worst possible case is that there was some minting of notes in the orchard pool which means that there is a race basically to get out of that pool as soon as possible and there's some collateral damage um assuming some people can't get out, right? And depending on the scope of that. So for example, it can be on the order of $5 million. it can be on the order of $50 million depending on the severity of that. There's obviously quite a

difference in possibility. So for example, if it was like $50 million or something, it those users can probably made whole and then there can probably be social consensus on the new way forward. If it's like a billion dollars, I don't know, right? That that starts getting quite complex. So I'm not going to sugar coat that. That is always a possibility. So you should always underwrite that in your risk model. [snorts] Now, as it stands, I personally think and many others, including Josh and Zuko and whatnot, think that there was no exploit, right? And we can't ask you to trust anybody on this because that's not how crypto works. You should be able to verify it. And so, the way forward from here is that there's a new network upgrade. The pools are migrated and then you find out for yourself that

there is no exploit. Once that happens, then again, like I said, the next upgrade is a formally verified quantum proof and more scalable shielded pool in project Tachion, which is how I got into Zcash in the first place two years ago, right? And I think that is one of the most bullish possible network upgrades that I've seen in the history of crypto, which is again why I got into Zcash. It's going to increase scale. It's going to make you quantum proof. And it's going to formally verify this entire class of auditability bugs that has been a drag on ZK and privacy protocols since existence. Right? So, that's a bull case. And also, it's a bull case because um you you can kind of make the argument that look Zcash does hold a lot of

private value more than I think it's actually the biggest shielded pool in crypto. And [snorts] so, you have the most people looking at it, bad guys and good guys. And so you start developing this Lindy effect of well clearly this is the one that's been proven to be safe because everybody's looking at it and formally verifying and all this stuff. So assuming we make it through that which again this is all this year. This is not in three years. This is not a 5year road map. This is going to happen throughout the summer and the fall. It's been underway this whole time. So that's the bold case and the bare case is what I said. So I'm not selling. Uh I am here to make crypto work in privacy and uh scale to planetary scale and there will be no giving up.

>> Man, that gave Jordan Bell for it. I'm [clears throat] not in leaving vibes. >> Ilia, anything on your side about just kind of thinking ahead for the future of Zcash as a network in terms of its importance um in the space and kind of what this outcome means to Near as well as to yourself and your personal holdings etc. >> For sure. Yeah. Um I mean Zigash has effectively took this spot which is what is the sovereign asset that is kind of truly belongs to you and is not under kind of constant surveillance and this is not a point in time right it's a trajectory this is the evolution right none of these protocols you know near

Salana Zcash are frozen in time this is why you know me mer toy zuko you know Josh Everyone's working, right? We're not chilling. Uh it's all about, you know, evolving this into the system that we want to see. And so, uh kind of the way I see this, you know, yeah, Tion, I mean, obviously been talking with the team a bunch, uh before like lots of great upgrades, lots of innovation happening to really bring this forward and kind of keep evolving what Zcash is offering. Uh same for Near, right? we've continuously innovating and adding more pieces to our stack to really offer um the the solutions that we believe you

know will bring this user owned internet. So yeah like I I see this as you know bugs will happen you know AI has accelerated this the there was indeed enough kind of controls to to mitigate it we'll I mean hopeful hope hopefully and again based on all the data we've seen there's hasn't been an exploit but we'll see this as this transition happened and then from there I I think yeah like the whole space needs to effectively adopt for verification across the stack and and kind of in this new paradigm and I think this is going to happen also like

within next six months uh and uh yeah I mean for for near right I mean this week obviously been very volatile on the markets [laughter] but the cool thing is you know the the near intense effectively makes money on volatility and So yeah, we've had I think we had like 150k revenue a day which is like 50 something million annualized of buy effectively buyback near right. So, so effectively as you know you know even if people are selling the near protocol is buying. We had you hit on with Arthur and Arthur literally asked you like a long-term view question

like oh man when's near going to be you know deflationary like I'm really calculating this into my thesis right you know goes next week dumps his all of his near when you [laughter] be Andy before before you get there a quick question on the buybacks is are all of the near intense fees going to buy back near >> so so so the near intense protocol which is kind of the main boss that effectively matches and settles the transactions. Those fees are go to buy back near. Now we also run a front end right near.com and few other components. Those are paying salaries for people at least at

the moment. I mean near.com actually yeah we've we've started buying back near with those fees as well. So we we we there is like actually the goal for near foundation which I put like uh last year was to become first cash neutral and then near near neutral. I want to stop selling near. I want to actually buy buy near as a foundation. And I like on top of the protocol in near buying. I want as a foundation to like be cash neutral slash positive to be able to I mean there's obviously a lot of like regulatory stuff around that but effectly not not be a seller because like we believe in near why are we selling it? We want to be buying it, right? So so and like all foundations have actually are sellers right now because they need to pay salaries. the

pay like so we've been flipping and like we we've actually had cash neutral uh kind of months um obviously depending on where the market and and some other things are and so that's actually the goal is like hey we want to be not just deflationary on near we want to also like as we you think of all the teams working on different components of the near stack like that also should be ideally net uh buyer and uh yeah so like that's kind of how we structuring this to really uh you know keep accumulating across the board.

>> Yeah. Yeah. there's you know near is part of this cohort in you know this this industry that actually has revenue which is a very select you know choice uh set of companies and e so even amongst these companies we're seeing you know this bifurcation of those who have these pre-commitments with what they're going to do with that revenue right there's programmatically enforced buybacks with the revenue versus those who maybe just kind of use the revenue for buybacks when they feel like it and >> yeah, sporadically.

>> Sporadically, right? And so you're saying, you know, kind of the near protocol, the near intense protocol uses all of its revenue for buybacks and then there's and so that's programmatic that happens according to the chain. And then there's other for the transaction happen, right? There's a fee and that you know, we already only near intent. So the fee is near, >> right? >> It's good. It's good to have the swap already embedded into the swap. So, >> yeah. Yep. And then that creates more fees. The buybacks creates more fees. Um, I just wanted to ask you like, you know, we literally had the show with Arthur last week and then he comes out and dumps all of his near like, you know, I I'm I'm looking at the episode

on our YouTube and I'm just like, this this doesn't even feel right. Uh, did you give a [ __ ] or do you just like whatever, traders going to trade? >> I mean, traders going to trade, right? I mean merch started with that like you know pe people have very different uh different approaches like I think I'm here for the long run right I've been here since 2018 I've seen you know now like I guess three bare markets right we started in bare market cue the meme you know I was born in there I was raised in bare um and yeah I mean like you know obviously we've had investors who bought in and sold like last bear like we've we've seen kind of all of this at the

end here you know we we're building this future we are build kind of revenue streams and we're like using this revenue streams to buy back token and I like I you know again working toward reducing inflation and figuring out how we make it deflationary so that as we stack near right there is actually less near available period on the market right that's that's a goal and we have like a pretty clear plan uh on how we're going to get there. >> Um, Ilia, we just got a a question in the chat. Does Ilia have Jensen's phone number? Does Jensen ever give him crap for being in crypto? [laughter] >> I mean, I've I've definitely gotten crap. Not crap, but we're like, why are

you still in crypto? Uh, and my answer is like that that is the coordination and like ownership layer for the AI, right? And I mean that's like I mean I'm going to repeat my thesis but AI is you know how you interface with computing and blockchain is how all of this coordination will happen on the back end right >> and so like these two technologies go hand in hand and uh again we we bringing all this pieces together uh for everyone to enjoy. >> How many energy drinks does Andy smash per day? [laughter] Yeah. Got it. U last thing here from the audience. Someone wants to know if when you're going to shave your uh beard and unjinx us from this uh catastrophic time here.

>> Uh I was actually so I I made a post uh last year. I I don't quite remember what it was, but it was something like if Solano is not at 300 by end of year, then I'm going to get a mustache. Um, now the the problem is I need to ask my girlfriend's parents to uh for for her hand in marriage in in some sense basically uh at some point. And I I feel like doing that with a mustache will get me an automatic no. So um there's just got to be or the Zach price right now will get me >> Yeah. Salana under 300 like an automatic.

[laughter] >> Uh but it is coming. I'm I'm looking for the best possible mustache style. >> Okay. Okay. And then any any words on Arthur Hayes's trading strategies, Mark? >> Uh I'm Well, how do I look? I mean, fundamentally, I don't give a [ __ ] Um, if you get emotional because some random dude [ __ ] who's made his entire living by swing trading, then he has edge over you and he owns you in some sense. Uh, he occupies way too much space in your mental uh framework. Like, and and I'm just not going to let that happen. Like, I don't

care. Uh, he doesn't he doesn't know what he doesn't know. That's totally okay. He can be sidelined. Um, the reality is me and I are builders. Ilia much more so I just mostly talk on Twitter [laughter] and we know what we can do to help improve these protocols while improving the entire industry in the meantime and I think that's just completely undervalued. It takes conviction. It takes a lot of pain and sweat but fundamentally we are doing it and we'll continue to do it and then people can come on later when they realize um the opportunity as well.

>> Love it gentlemen. Great vibes on a uh bloody bloody Friday here. Thanks for spending some time with us. Fun times. Thank you for uh >> I can't believe that Zcash [ __ ] nuked the QQQ, man. >> Is down. >> It's all because of Zcash, man. >> Yeah, Zash. >> Everybody's selling stocks. That's why. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. My girlfriend just dumped me. You know, she's with Zuko now. [laughter] >> All right, guys. Thanks for coming on. It was fun. Have a great weekend. All right. >> Thank you guys. [cheering] Oh man, what a what a journey. What a journey that was. Chat is absolutely firing it. I don't care who Arthur even is till people bottom up on height. [ __ ]

that dude 100%. I remember the meme coin that was made on Near that was about Jensen touching Ilia's knee. Ilia's knee. Um, >> he was rubbing elbows or his shoulder or something. >> Why wasn't the code already in AI code audits? Um, I think that's about Zcash. I'm sure it was. >> This uh this show has gotten fundamentally unserious as we read more and more of the chat. >> All warfare, all warfare is based on deception. Arthur Hayes, I meant Sunzu.

I'm a near whale and not selling. Well, guys, we've got another ne near whale about to join the show here in the tower. Mr. Hibb. Uh, what a day for Hib to be on. It's uh it's a big conference week in New York right now. Well, it's tech week right now. Next week is ETH comp. So, it's pretty big conference week. Bitcoin is officially under 60K now. And seeing what the appetite is there in the high 50s, 596 right now. Don't look at your portfolios, ladies and gentlemen.

>> We're not getting any kind of crazy bounce either. >> I love the sound effects. Shout out to Aton for the sound effects. guy is always crushing. Uh, I'm going to pass you guys to Rob. He's going to give you guys some solace for the weekend ahead. Hopefully let you guys know that everything's going to be all right. Uh, and we're going to get a set up here in a few. Guys, it's not going to be all right. No, it'll be all right. I mean, like I was pretty diversified over the last few weeks um than uh you know, more so than than my co-host who is pretty concentrated uh in choice DAT companies.

you know, if we're if we're looking at where we go from here, um without getting too specific, I do think that the uh categories that have held up the best over recent weeks, uh are going to outperform and do do particularly well, but you know, we're seeing quite a bit of beta on uh Bitcoin right now. For instance, uh, you know, starting with Bitcoin down about six and a half percent today, 20% this week, Ethereum down 12% today, 23% this week, Hyperlquid down 15% that today, Near down 20%, Zcash down 38%.

So, all of these things are beta on Bitcoin. They're more reflexive. As Bitcoin goes down, these things go down more. I think we're seeing a lot of the draw down happening right now. That's going to continue. Um, I don't think there's a whole lot of catalyst in order for these things to go back up right now. Uh, the war in Iran ending would obviously look great, but the market is super skittish. You can see that by the good jobs numbers and then stock market selling off. That didn't really make much sense. Um, so, you know, these things are telling us something.

Uh, and we're not going to have a reversal in these markets until that changes. Um, you can look at seasonality a little bit. You can think back to the four-year cycle. You can think, hey, we're in the midst of this 2022, 2026 bare market. Uh, we're going to get a reversal at some point, but uh we're going to have this capitulation tirade happen before we get this apathetic market bottoming uh and ultimately a reversal. And so, I do think that, you know, you'll have some time to buy the quote unquote bottom. you're not going to be able to buy the pico bottom, but you'll be able to kind of buy this rounding out of the market. Um, I do think there's going to be outperformers.

There's going to be these little spurts of uh of good performance in the markets amidst the greater macro uh major downturn. Um, and I realized that we were we were pushing Zcash and we were pushing hype. We were positioned, we were in these assets and we were talking and very cautious about what this looks like on a relative strength basis. We were very concerned that Bitcoin did not look good. It didn't have a lot of reason to go up. What would that mean for hype Zcash and near? Yeah, we were positioned in these things anyway. Uh if you heard this over the last few days, it was probably a good time, you know, once we start to talk into new paradigm.

This time is different. this kind of rhetoric, that's usually a good time to, you know, start to start to trim things down a little bit. Uh, but we're in for a long ride. I think, uh, you know, the summer things might be a little rough, fall, winter, once we get past the midterms. Uh also this IPO season, people are calling for this IPO season as the rotation from stocks uh as those get a little bit over overweight little topsyturvy in the in the stock market with these IPOs, a rotation into Bitcoin. uh if we can get a you know a nice significant you know accumulation in bitcoin then I could understand and see how that wealth effect translates

into the categories that we've been talking about revenue privacy and AI uh with respect to the digital assets also obviously tokenization is just continuing to charge on we're seeing new platform partnerships and announcements on a daily basis so these things are happening uh what this means for the markets it's difficult to hell. But man, stay patient. Don't use leverage. Um, you guys will find out soon enough. And we're going to continue to uh, you know, bring you guys unbiased coverage day in and day out, represent our own position at thesis, and talk to some of the smartest people in the world on digital assets. So, next up, we've got Him coming at you guys from the tokenization

tower. Uh, let's do a quick standby, guys. Don't go anywhere. Hit us up in the chat with the questions that you want uh Andy to ask his seed and we're going to be right back. So don't go anywhere and we are going to round out the week with a great show on Friday for you guys. Talk to you soon. [music] [music] >> [music] [music]

[music] >> money power. [music] big money [music] hour. [music] We get deep know we get deep know we get deep [music] we get deep know we get deep we get we get deep we get deep we get [music]

we get deep know we get >> [music] >> Heat. Hey, heat. Hey, heat.

>> [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music]

[music] >> We get deep. We get deep. You know, we get deep. We get deep. [music] We get deep, you know. We get deep know. We [music] get deep. We get deep. Know we get deep. [music] Know we get deep. We get deep. Know we get deep. Know [music] we get deep. We get deep. Know we get deep. [music] We get we get deep. We get deep.

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70 74. So, uh, Mert contemplated shaving his beard on the last episode. We are back here at the tokenization tower. We've got Hib with us. Hib, welcome to the tower. Great to have you. Yeah, I am what murder would look like without beard. So, I feel like I'm the before and after.

>> Okay. A before and after with and without. >> So, just put the two of you guys. >> Imagine just imagine me with more tattoos. >> Yeah. Um I see. We're going to have to take a super quick break. My apologize. We'll be right back. [music] >> [music] [music] >> Heat.

[music] Hey. Hey. Hey. >> [music] >> All right, guys. We're back with Hib in the tokenization tower. Hib just a normal day. NASDAQ down 4%. SP down two. Bitcoin is under 60K, sitting at 592. Um, >> so chill. >> Everyone's favorite tokens, Hyperliquid and Zcash are crushed and the relative shrink trade got hit by a truck. Yeah.

>> And that always happens. That always happens. >> Yeah. I mean, look, uh markets are hurting. Markets are hurting, but look, if you've been in crypto for a while, you've had your share of days like this. So, I'm uh I'm I'm chilling. I think, uh the the Zcash one is the most idiosyncratic. Of course, it's about this bug, which I'm sure you guys have have probably talked about given that you had Mr. Mert on. Um but I was I was just chatting with some people online and realizing like, man, people do not understand what happened. Yeah. Yeah. And so I wrote a post this morning trying to at least explain a little bit because people think there's some kind of uh like oh we're not we're never going to know the supply of Zcash ever again and maybe there'll be extra Zcash floating around. Um and that's that's

just not what happened. That's not what the bug means. So I did a little bit of educating this morning which I think was um was helpful to people. But the reality is that macro right now is primarily driving this downturn. Um because you know with with the jobs report being as strong as it is, it's just like okay hire for longer. >> Yeah. And it looks like now markets are projecting that there may even be rate hikes coming this year. And if there are rate hikes this year, >> every risk asset is going to get crushed. That's just how it works. So crypto is no exception to that. And Bitcoin is still a risk asset at the end of the day. So that's why we're seeing what we're seeing. But um you know, I think it doesn't really change any fundamentals for anything.

>> Yeah. You know, that's a interesting point because it feels like the performance of equities and other kind of AI stocks have been dislocated from reality a little bit in terms of like the war or the rates or the liquidity environment. And uh you know Chris Berniski, he tweeted this Bitcoin is the most honest macro asset. I think it's trying to tell us something. You know, I don't know this a couple weeks ago like what do you think about the the honesty of Bitcoin as a macro asset? How do you how do you think about like stocks and equities just being kind of like pumped up by Trump or by whatever it is whereas Bitcoin being a more telltale signal of of the reality of the situation? Do you agree? Do do you disagree?

>> I totally disagree with this. I think this is horshit. Like I I mean it is not the case that the that the economy has deteriorated by 50% in the last 6 months. Like that's just not a correct reading of reality. Very clearly Bitcoin was drawing down well before the war in Iran began. So you can't really pin Bitcoin in the straight of form moose. Most of the downturn happened well before that. So and you know when the Iran conflict started, Bitcoin was actually doing okay for a little bit and actually it kind of started to recover during the Iran conflict. Um so that just cannot explain what's happening with Bitcoin. The extent to which Bitcoin is honest, it's like I mean okay, yes, obviously Trump wants the stock market to go up, but we don't live in a centrally planned economy. Trump cannot make the market go up. If the

market wants to go down, it's going to go down. Um, now if we're if you're talking about, you know, Treasury going out and buying bonds or, you know, quantitative easing or the Fed going in and doing something, um, that's a different story. None of those things have happened. There is no Trump price stabilizer except for his change in underlying policy. >> Yeah. >> So, that's why I I don't really think this is true. It's pretty obvious what's happening, which is that retail is not here. >> Yeah. retail left and it's just us in the room and like it's you know we're kind of stabbing each other as we go and being like oh my coin better than your coin. Um and that's you know that's like the relative strength trade like >> I mean that's what's been happening.

It's been it's been per or like the revenue trade like oh my my protocol makes money. We have buybacks so we're going to you know survive the bear or I'm a privacy protocol so like I'm important or you know have something to do with AI and there's important things happening there. I know you're a big lighter bull. Um, and lighter was just, you know, doing quite well for the last couple weeks and its buybacks significantly outpace hyperlids. Uh, your partner Tom Schmidt dunked on me today on Twitter with a screenshot of the Hyperlid all-time high revenue day or sorry, all time in the last quarter was about four and a half million and then he put us a chart of of buybacks and how Lighter is just significantly higher in terms of its buybacks per you

know based on the total market cap. Where do you think that this this per trade goes? Do we think that hyperlquid and lighter and variational have the ability to kind of leverage their non-crypto trading volumes to diverge from the broader crypto markets? Like per has become clearly like the revenue category leader. Like how do we how do we see if it's possible some of these assets be more resilient than the rest? Is it just solely an idea and a narrative? What what is your per's kind of purp?

>> Yeah, I mean so look it's pretty clear hyperlquid lighter anything else that's kind of up up on the high tier list of crypto per dexes especially if they have RWAS. A lot of the smaller perplexes don't have any RWA exposure in which case they're getting decimated alongside the rest of the market. The market is being buoied in part by Hyperlquid and these other assets because they have diversification of revenue, right? They're not purely exposed to the underlying crypto market. If we're going through a deep crypto winter and there's less retail activity, that means there's less trading fees. That mean, you know, look at Coinbase, look at Robin Hood.

These stocks are telling the same story, which is that retail is not here. They're not paying the fees, which means we don't have the revenues, we don't have the profits. So, if you are diversifying your business away from that, >> Robin Hood still has a foundation, which is that there's a lot of people trading stocks and the stock market is at all-time highs. there's all this brilliance, you know, we got SpaceX about to go out presum presumably OpenAI and Enthropic later this year and that means that there's still a lot of energy in that market and what crypto can offer to allow people to access the universe of financial assets, not just crypto uh is still really compelling. It's still a really strong narrative and and a strong growth story. If you're purely exposed to I want to buy and sell Bitcoin and ETH and soul and blah blah blah blah,

that market is challenged right now. And it also means that your um your token is going to be very tied to crypto beta. Crypto beta is getting hammered, that means those tokens are getting hammered. Um the what you're seeing is relative outperformance coming from having some kind of break from crypto beta, right? Where it's like, okay, even if Bitcoin goes down, I'm not that exposed to the Bitcoin price. I'm not that exposed to how many people are trading crypto. That's what Hyperlid is saying when it's saying, look, you know, it it it got hit today, but on a week- over-week basis, it's something like flat, I think, on a weekly basis. Um, which tells you like, yeah, Hyperlid is doing okay. Even in a world where Bitcoin is going through a really dark period, Hyperliquid is going to be okay. Lighter is going to be okay.

They're they're they're going to have some impact on revenue, but it's not catastrophic. Whereas, you know, you take something like Uniswap or a >> Yeah. >> they are completely exposed to the crypto market. That's why I think you're seeing the divergence we're seeing. So, one of the uh interesting things in this category has been this regulatory question and Kyle Sanmanis came back from the you know ashes or whatever you want to call it and he's been dunking on Hyperliquid saying that it's stuck between a rock and a hard place on the regulatory side given that it has no KYC and there is now this onshoring of perhi having this green light to trade per bitcoin in the US and soon other assets.

Hyperlink's kind of in this tough spot where they're not going to really be able to navigate the regulatory waters. Some people are like, "No, it's completely the wrong take. This is a very bullish all-purpose platform in general. The fact that the US is being open to this, then you've got lighter. It's kind of like Darling, Delaware, CC Corp, US-based. Vlad is on this SEC um or the CFTC kind of council or something. There's a specific group of crypto innovators there. Do do you think lighter is just like strongly positioned regulatory wise compared to Hyperlid? I know you you know you guys have an investment there. And then on that like do you think that this regulatory action is net negative for Hyperlid? Maybe you could put those two together.

>> Yeah. So firstly, we're we're invested in in both. We're actually invested in a number of perplexes beyond even those two. We invested probably like five. >> The old dragonfly spray and prey, baby. [laughter] >> I I would say we're invested in the good ones. We're invested in the good ones. Uh there's a lot of bad ones out there, but um I would say look, this is obviously an enormous category, right? We're invested in multiple, you know, centralized exchanges as well. And um I I think it's very clear it's not a winner take all market. So I don't think you could look at this and say, "Oh, well, clearly this means that A is going to win and B is not going to win." I think probably there's going to be some relatively open treatment. They're probably going to be treated mostly the same right?

Yeah, it may be that lighters in the US and hyperlquids in Singapore, but for the most part, I I don't think that's the the the bounding box that the CFTC is going to draw if and when they do, very likely it will be, hey, if you want to have a PERPS uh a regulated PERS product in the US, you need to get a DCMCO register with the CFTC. You need to KYC everyone. You need to have market surveillance. You need to allow us to be able to pull anyone's name if there's some funny activity going on. That's what the CFTC does. That's their job. They are a regulator. They are the policeman, the cop on the beat. Okay? So right now neither Lighter nor Hyperliquid >> are set up to do that. They don't have the licenses. They don't have the infrastructure. It's it's a different

ballgame than what they're currently playing. Now they may decide to launch Hyperlquid US or Lighter US which is you know Lighter is is not available to Americans. Same as Hyperliquid, right? >> So you think they will like split their book up? >> It's possible. So one thing they can't do, they can't just serve liquidity from the offshore exchange domestically. Yeah. >> You cannot do that. You can't do that. >> You can't do that because if I want to if I am the CFTC and I say, "Hey, this looks fishy. Who is this?" I have to be able to unmask them and say, "Oh, haha, this is this is, you know, this person who's insider trading or this is North Korea or this is whatever some sanctions violator, right?" You can't do that on chain. So, you need some kind of cord and off liquidity, which like you see

this with Poly Market, right? Poly Market has the offshore global onchain product and then it has the onshore fully KYC regulated product and they're different. They're not they don't share the same liquidity. So in that world, you basically have lighter or hyper liquid or whoever wants to do this domestically. If they do it, they have to spin up a totally different kind of business and they have to compete with Coinbase, Robin Hood, whoever else wants to do this domestically. Right now, maybe they can. Maybe they're set up to do that. Maybe the brand is really strong. Maybe the reach is really strong. Um, but the other thing I think is is that I'm actually kind of bearish on perbs domestically. This might be a little bit of a hot take, but um I think the idea that pers are going to somehow reinvigorate the market and like oh

because we have BTC pers in the US now suddenly people will buy Bitcoin again and people will start buying crypto. I think this is just the wrong mental model. >> Yeah. >> Um like at the end of the day pers are just one financial instrument. They're a convenient financial instrument. We really like them because they're simple for retail to get leverage. It's very easy to understand relative to trading on margin or or buying options or or dated futures. Um >> but the the main thing about per like the reason why they were created in the first place was because crypto exchanges historically did not have the ability to claw back losses, >> right?

>> So if you're trading on margin, right, you can go negative. And so margin trading didn't really work in crypto history because if someone goes negative, you're never getting the money back because they live in a different country. They might be pseudonmous. You know, there used to be no KYC exchanges. you if you think about like Bitmax or the exchanges even before then it was just random people with just in you know an email address that were coming and trading on your on your things. So you needed a financial product that worked in a world where you had no recourse. You didn't know who these people were and you couldn't send them to collections. >> Yeah. >> Right. That's where the per was the perfect solution to that set of constraints.

>> Right. >> But domestic US regulated exchanges do not have that set of constraints. You actually can send someone to collections. You actually can't. Like a lot of these problems don't exist >> in the same way they do in the overseas per market. >> Then why do you need per, right? Like >> exactly like being able to trade on margin and or you know trading on data futures solve a lot of the problems when you can do when you can collect from somebody who goes negative. Now pers are still convenient in that it's very simple for retail. It's very easy for them to understand what they're doing. Um but like where they have really outsized advantages is in overseas uh you know offshore unregulated exchanges.

So I think what you will see is that my guess when per launch domestically it's going to be kind of underwhelming. >> But they're still going to remain dominant on the offshore platforms. >> Right. >> That is where I expect we're going. And so do do you then expect that the current kind of American user whether you know we can advocate for this or not throw the VPN on trade on the hyperlquid trade on the lighter that activity that activity effectively can't be stopped unless they do like a full like block of of these websites. Like do you think that if there is further regulatory action that there will have to be a actual full geo blocking from these websites versus kind of what exists now which is like this like you're you can't use this but then like turn the VPN on

that you pay like 20 bucks a month for and then you can use this like do you think? >> Yeah. So I mean not every site does the same thing. Some actually do VPN blocking as well. Yeah. Um and so it it it really depends on what their risk thresholds are or also I mean some of them have agreements with the CFTC. Um so like for polyarketer for example they had an agreement with the CFTC that said what they need to do in order to stay compliant. Yeah. And they do that they remain compliant. Um so it it is it is on some level the the the regulations that we have in the US is that um it you are not punished as a consumer for doing something that the state doesn't think is wise. Right.

>> Right. Like we will not come after you for trading on a prediction market. It's just not how this not how our system of government works. Not how our system of regulation works. We might go after the company if they are willfully soliciting people from, you know, who we believe are not supposed to be trading on these platforms, but we're not going to go after them. >> And so I think the the place that we're likely going to land is that as an American, if you are sufficiently motivated >> to go trade on these platforms, you can't. Now, if you're insider trading or you're breaking the law in some other way, then okay, people will try to come after you. Um, but these, you know, they're not going to necessarily go after individuals for trading on these platforms. As long as those overseas platforms are not soliciting and they're

not encouraging Americans to trade, I think it's perceived as more or less fine, right? Obviously, if you are sufficiently motivated, you can find a way around just about any kind of geoblock unless they're full on KYCing, which is not demanded of them. So I would say, you know, long long story short, PERPS are a great financial innovation, but there's a reason why it's been more than 10 years that we've had per used for almost any other financial product. >> People know that PEPS exists. They've learned about them. Crypto is a huge market, right? And yet almost everything else in the world does not trade on PES.

Crypto is the thing that trades on PES, particularly crypto on overseas exchanges. Um eventually I think we will see pers domestically but there obviously they're going to be KYC and there's going to be limitations on leverage. It's not going to be you can go on your domestic you know coinbased pers and go 50x levered long. >> Yeah >> right there because you know just go play around with products in the US they don't allow you to take on that le kind of leverage because CFTC understands look there's no real social value in allowing people to go 50x levered long on a 90 asset. Yeah, 100%.

>> Right. I mean, that's just pure gambling. So, that's why I think there will still be demand >> for these overseas products from people who really want to just go and yolo it. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when we're thinking about this category, it feels like these are the most or some of the most investable assets in the market. And you look at Ethereum's market cap and you you you know, you were uh coming out during David Hoffman's I sold all my ETH thing and being like, look, we hold a bunch a bunch of ETH. We're still very bullish. Um, but you look at the revenue numbers and Hyperlquid and Lighter are making more money than most L1's if not like all of them. And so we we had this conversation forever of like there's going to be this infra to apps shift, right? Where like a lot of the investors

will shift from investing the underlying into the applications. We're we're going to see some breakout apps generate a lot of revenue. Feels like Hyperlid and Letter are kind of like firmly in that camp. Obviously, Poly Market's doing well, pump funds doing well, but really in the per category, let's just stay here. Like, when you're thinking about the the market cap, the valuations, the investability of Hyperlquid at whatever it's at, lighter at a significantly less amount. >> Yeah. >> Like, are are these things top seven crypto assets, top 10 crypto assets? like Hypquliquid's there I think 10 now but if these things are the most profitable uh with the largest potential TAM of a market potentially going to be the exchanges for finance going forward >> like are these not just like a full full

port type of play why still hold ETH why hold Bitcoin why hold other L1s I was talking to the Bitwise guys and I'm like guys when you're talking to your allocators is it not just like you're just stop shilling all your other L1 ETFs because you've got Hyperlid that generates a ton of money, has a very clear tokconomic flow, and has a very easy explanation to a a mega trend. Like, why would you even talk about anything else anymore? How do you think about like this consolidation of attention of capital from the allocator's perspective, from the investor's perspective? We're down a lot now. People are wondering what they want to do with their assets. Is it too late to buy hype, to buy lighter? Where do these things go? kind of what what's your take on the on how Per's assets are kind of shifting the way that the

average investor is thinking about what to buy? Look, this thing is generating all this revenue. It's generating it, you know, it has very clear pre-commitments for buybacks. Why would I buy anything else? How do you think about this? >> So, well, first let me caveat. You know, I'm not in the business of giving investing advice. Sure. But I will kind of take my read of the situation which is like Hyperlquid is not the first asset on chain that produces a ton of revenue. Actually the first by a long shot is BNB. BNB preceded Hyperlid makes way more money than Hyperlid does. It is by far the largest business in crypto besides Tether. Um and um you know they make billions a year in profit. Um if you wanted to buy that you could. This is

not new. You can always buy a revenue generating business and and it's valued highly because it does that. It's it's it's a very good business. People in the US don't like to talk about it, but it's way bigger than hyperlquid. It's it's been around for a very long time. >> If that's what you want, it's always been there. What Bitcoin and ETH represent is something fundamentally different. And and the thing is, look, um part of the reason why Hyperlid is outperformed is not because it makes revenue. Like I said, BNB makes revenue. Um it makes it makes way more revenue than Hyperlid does. Um the reason why it's outperformed is because the story of one defi onchain trading has grown so much relative to CFI driven by hyperlquid and second the growth of RWAs >> specifically on trade XYZ. Those two are

the are the reason why it's been growing so much and why it's been so strong. Um otherwise like there's a bunch of exchange tokens that that buy and burn and do the same thing that that Hyperlid does, right? And at the end of the day like there's nothing that forces Hyperlid to make those sales. they are discretionary um from a from a protocol perspective they're doing the discretionary thing but you know one day they could they could decide to stop some way Binance could decide to stop um now all that is to say um because they don't burn literally 100% right they burn like 98 or something or 99 um which tells you okay who decided the 1% or the 2% don't get burned um now >> the the the last thing that I'll I'll point out is that look um markets are forward-looking >> and it's very easy to just kind of gloss

over what that means, but like let's really understand what that means is that markets are forward looking. They don't care about right now. They care about the future. What is Ethereum going to be worth in 20 years? What is Bitcoin going to be worth in 20 years? We don't talk about that very much in the industry, but I'm a VC. That's what I think about. I think about what happens in 10 years. In 20 years, in 20 years, I have no idea what's going to happen to perexes. it's very hard to to draw the line out that far, which is why the multiples that you're given on these um these cash flows are not crazy high, right? They're not Google type multiples, right? And why not? Because people believe that Google will be doing what it's doing for a very, very long time. Y Apple will be doing what it's

doing for a very, very long time. Microsoft will be doing what it's doing for a very, very long time. For Perpexes, we don't know. They literally just showed up and we know that the market structure can change because we just saw it change. So now that being said Hyperlquid Lighter Variational all these guys are crushing. They're incredible teams. They're performing incredibly well and they're making a lot of money and that's fantastic. But one thing that we know is that the underlying infrastructure does not seem to change. And all this stuff, the whole thesis is dependent on these things continuing to exist.

>> Yeah. >> So what is Ethereum going to be worth in 20 years? What else is going to be on Ethereum? How are we going to be thinking about block space? I don't know. know the answer to that. But my bet, the bet that I'm making is that it's going to be larger than it is today. It's going to be a lot larger. And you know, I I bring up this point a lot, but I'll make it again, is that, you know, Bitcoin now is 18 years old. That means if you're going to college today, you don't remember a time before Bitcoin existed. >> Yeah. >> Now, Ethereum is 10 years old. All right. That means like you were 8 years old. If you're entering college today, you were 8 years old when Ethereum was created, right? which you know when I was 8 years old I didn't know anything

about money or the economics or finance or any of that [ __ ] Um and so give it another 10 years Ethereum will be 20 years old. Bitcoin will be 28 years old. These things will become boring. And the people who are totally accustomed to this, you and I, but even the generation after us, they're going to look at all these assets as being obvious. >> Yeah. And as they step into the halls of power and as they start being the allocators of capital to them this stuff is going to be mundane. Like of course you're going to own some Bitcoin. Of course you're going to own some ETH, >> right?

>> The people today, like I talk to allocators literally for half of what I do is go and talk to allocators, right? These are people who run the biggest endowments, the biggest institutions in the world. And >> there are always someone on their board, someone at the foundation, someone on the investment committee who's just like, "Bitcoin is a scam. >> I don't believe this stuff. This is not real. This is a bubble. This is going to go away." Yeah. Right. Um those people will die. >> They just actually will die. they will step out of power and the generations for whom crypto is obvious and they've lived with it their whole lives will step into that power. That's why Bitcoin is worth what it's worth. That's why Ethereum is worth what it's worth. It's not look at the current cash flows and

multiply them by some number. >> Yeah. Yeah. you know, we've been having this conversation with the with Joe Shalom from Ethereum and from Sharp Link, from the Stellar CEO, um, from a couple other like L1, uh, John Woo from Avalanche and the there seems to be a bit of a dichotomy in how we're thinking about this value conversation and this is pertains to what you're saying. Ethan, Bitcoin are kind of in this Lindy class of their own and, you know, these other assets will get there in terms of time, too. Yeah. But all of these L1 chains when we again probably because of Trump and its administration over the last kind of year and a half being like all bets are off, all rules are off. Go take all your cash flows, give it to

your token, we don't care. You know, all the SEC rules that that that kind of prohibited you guys from doing what you want to do on chain doesn't really exist anymore, at least not to this certain extent. And Hyperlid as well being like, hey, we're just going to do this. Good luck. um you know catch us or just you know watch us win or whatever it is right and so we ask these L1 teams and these investors what their what's the business model what's the fees and it's always well transactions on the chain make fees those fees go to some version of a buyback or burn and this is how we're going to be deflationary >> and then at the same time we in the conversation they're all talking to us about how they're trying to scale their

chain >> and they're trying to lower the fees Y >> and they're trying to scale this thing as much as possible to have the best experience and lower their fees. And so Rob and I have been sitting here for the last three weeks asking all these like founders, investors about their business model from from the L1 perspective and it's the same answer and it just doesn't make sense to us. >> How do we how do we make sense of this? How do we make sense of we want to scale our L1, we want to scale our block space, make it better experience and our business model is quite literally tied to the amount of fees that we generate. >> Yeah. I mean I I don't think this is an economic mystery. like, you know, what do you think happened to software? What do you think happened to computers? What

do you think happened to operating systems? Like the answer was that, you know, buying Windows in 1995 was like hundreds of dollars to buy Windows. Now you can literally get it for like almost nothing. Um, like shrink wrap software has basically gone away because prices went lower and lower and lower, but we sold more of it. Yeah. >> Right. >> I get the e like I get that it's the economies of scale. I'm going to interrupt. >> Correct. >> But it still doesn't make sense though. >> Why doesn't it make sense? I mean, look at what's happening with AI models. It's the exact same thing happening to us right now, which is that frontier level intelligence is now onetenth, 100th the cost of what it cost a year ago, >> and yet revenues are going up.

>> Okay. So then isn't there going to be a part of the AI intelligence stack that's going to be just like very expensive and very Yes. >> costly and like high scale, right? >> Correct. Correct. >> So why >> that's like the mythos models, >> right? Right. And then you you have a whole slew of like really good intelligence for like super cheap. So you kind of get like this like barbell. >> Yeah. >> That's not going to happen in the blockchain space because Ethereum is clearly like saying like look we're trying to scale the L1 as much as possible. Ethereum kind of had this like we're the main >> that's not the right way to understand it, right? So like the most valuable block space is always going to command the highest fees even within a blockchain that the marginal transaction is relatively cheap. Okay. So what does

that mean? It means um if you are trying to compete for like sniping the highest volume unis swap pair, >> you're gonna have to pay a lot in the in the flashbox auction in order to win that piece of piece of uh of state, right? >> Okay. Like that's going to be really expensive. But the, you know, if you just want to do a send, that's going to be super cheap because you're not fighting over over contested state. Yeah. So, it's sort of like, you know, uh um New York makes a lot of money through property taxes, right? Um it is not the case that all property in New York is expensive. If you go up to the Bronx, you go to Queens, you can get a place, you know, it's not cheap, but you know, it's not crazy. Um but if you want to

live here, like in Manhattan, it's just horrifying what you're gonna have to pay, right? If you want to go to Williamsburg, it's like insane. So what what basically you're seeing is these chains will be uh price discriminating such that if you're fighting for really really valuable state, you'll pay a lot. >> If you're just doing a simple send, >> it's actually like, you know, pennies. >> Yeah. >> That's where we're going. >> Yeah. Yeah. And and so that's kind of like that that answers the question for the fee generation. >> Exactly. >> It's the it's the quality or the or the urgency of the transaction. And and this is this has existed for a while.

>> Totally. >> But I'm telling you, nobody has said that. Well, I'm saying it. So, I'm [laughter] here. I'm saying it. So, it's been said. So, you know, it's the same thing. Look, if you're if you're OpenAI, right? Vast majority, like 90% plus of OpenAI customers don't pay anything, >> right? >> They literally pay nothing. They are purely expenditures. Now, OpenAI will eventually make that money back through advertising or whatever, right? So, they'll make something on them. But a small number of people are paying for almost everything, right? They're they have the enterprise contracts. They're doing the, you know, whatever. they've got the huge uh uh um you know outlays across their entire organization. They have the gigantic token bills. Um the same thing is true in crypto is that a relatively small number of people are paying and effectively subsidizing what everybody else is doing. I use AWS

>> for almost nothing. I pay peanuts because and I get to, you know, spin up a a nice little server and go, you know, run my open claw on it or whatever. But if you're doing that, um like Ethereum, it's the same story. You know, if you're just doing simple sends or you're just putting some stuff into into a very cheap to do that, but if you want to go play the biggest games on Ethereum with the big money players, Yeah. it's going to cost you a lot in me. >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh, last thing for you, Hib. Um, man, what what words do you have to say for the folks watching, there's quite a few live who are, you know, looking at the market today. They're wondering, they probably missed the AI trade. you know, they probably have been holding

crypto for a while. They're watching stocks outperform. It's hard to be a believer right now. >> Um, it's just hard to kind of be excited. >> How do you how do you think about >> just surviving here and kind of the point of maximum opportunity being ahead of us? >> Hard to see that. >> Yeah. >> But give us some words of wisdom here. >> Yeah. I mean, look, I've lived through a lot of days like this in crypto. Um, one of the things that gives me a special comfort at a time like this is that we didn't do anything. You know, like there are times when crypto goes down because, you know, FTX collapsed or BlockFi or, you know, some something that we did just totally [ __ ] up and ruined the whole shindig, right? But actually right now, if you look at the fundamentals in

crypto, >> they look great. >> Yeah. >> Right. Like we're all the technology is working. We're continuing to scale underlying blockchains. Um if you look at RWA, you look at trading volume in DeFi, you look at DeFi relative to CFI, you look at um you know all the things that we're doing with respect to asset tokenization, stable coins, like the numbers are going up and to the right. Things are working. The regulatory regime is right around the corner. We're hitting alltime high in stable coin supply, right? The things that we said we were here to do, we are successfully doing now. Prices are not going up. That sucks. I feel that. I have a lot of this stuff, too. But like at the end of the day, prices are a leading indicator, not a sorry, they're a lagging indicator, not a leading indicator of where we are

going. I believe that crypto is one of these generational technologies and it also is going to have a massive impact on the world, on markets, on technology going forward. And AI is a part of that story. Um, crypto is not the only thing happening in the world. It's not supposed to be. If crypto is the only thing happening in the world, then we're [ __ ] Yeah. because there's nothing there's nothing of value to denominate. So, I'm not afraid of AI being valuable and running up. I think it it is going to mean that look, we're not the star of the show for a little while. I think it's okay. Look, it's a big world. But, um the question of whether or not crypto is fundamentally valuable or you're wasting your time here, I think the answer is unequivocally no.

>> Someone in the chat says, "Please don't say buy the dip. I will smash my phone." >> Not making any investment advice. No investment advice here. >> All right. Steve, thank you so much, man. Cheers. Always good to be here, man. >> Guys, we will be right back. We're going to finish up finish off the show in a few minutes. We're going to let his go. Cheers, guys. [music] [music] [music] >> [music] [music]

>> money power. [music] Big money. [music] We get deep. We get deep. [music] Know we get deep. Know we get deep. We get deep. Know we get deep.

We get We get deep. We get deep. We get [music] we get deep, you know. We get deep. [music] Heat. [music]

Heat. Heat. Heat. [music] [music] [music] >> [music] [music]

>> We get >> you see what's going on here. All right, guys. We have power hour uh at the nest. I don't know if you guys have met Aton. He is our He is our uh rollup intern. I know you guys love the sounds. Uh the chat kind of went crazy for the hive interview. We got all different types of things going on here. Bitcoin 59K. >> He was dropping some wisdom. Definitely. As someone like younger, we're talking about like cycles before he hopped on the show. Whether it takes like three, four cycles to like actually make it.

Yeah. So, just like perspective is everything on this and it's always great when you have someone like Kib hop on the show to like >> for sure >> calm the nerves like zoom out. So, we're chilling. Yeah, >> hype needs to get back above 60. I mean, man, like we're at 577 putting in some love. Bitcoin just not going to move, man. >> Bitcoin's not moving, but like a week ago, I put out a tweet like, "Will the intern get an entry under 50?" and we immediately skyrocketed to 80 or whatever, like just under like 75. So, I mean, why would we get upset about it dipping just the slightest whenever we were calling for it just >> to go lower so we could get an entry >> and it just is like selling off because

one guy sold. I like what Mert really said about how if some guy's selling, you have to capitulate because like f that, man. Why should he have a competitive edge over that? So, >> yeah. >> Hey, selling to me is a nothing burger. >> Everyone hates Arthur, dude. hype is going to go to three digits eventually. It's just a matter of your multiples and you get in. So, >> I agree. >> I'm not here to just make I mean, >> man, we're we're like mer we're going to have our little seltzer jingle. We're chilling in New York City. >> Now it's Michael Sailor messing things up. New type. Yeah, I mean Sailor's definitely definitely [ __ ] us up for a bit. I guess who introduced per crypto? Arthur Hayes. MySpace didn't last forever. Ethereum will be lower.

L1's will eventually become storage. >> Funny whenever. So, I was clipping for Gainy. >> Yo. >> And he would always recount how much money he would lose off Arthur Hayes in that persp era on like BitMX or whatever. He'd be like, "The daily schedule is wake up, read the email that you just got liquidated on BitMX." >> Yes. >> Go to McDonald's, get a a handle like a 12-pack of cookies, eat the cookies, >> repeat, open up another long short, get liquidated again, and and run it again. So, >> dude, I um I uh I I got liquidated really bad back in the day by Arthur.

>> Yeah, I think um maybe it's him counter trading me. Maybe he's liquidating me. But um never beating the allegations. Arthur, I don't know. Maybe he's just the most goated trader. Maybe he just has the best edge. But >> dude, he dumped on everybody. But like it's crazy because like I felt like anytime he he originally said 150 and I'm like I'm like 50% of that 75 >> and then of course that's where we get can intern pull the mic closer. >> Yeah. Intern could definitely pull it closer. Don't you worry about it. >> Um so guys I just want to introduce you to I know you guys love the sounds. Excuse me.

Um he does our sounds a lot of clips a lot of titles here in New York. Um, and yeah, man, what's it what's it been like for you last couple months here at the rollup? I mean, we're we're kind of in a groove right now. The chat's going now. The stream's firing. I mean, it's a bare market but >> you know, we set this whole thing up. It took us a while to set this whole office up. >> Yeah. One thing I'll say for sure, like I'm so grateful to be your number one. I think like this it could have been like a different summer cuz like I'm still in school. like if I was at a internship at like a JP Morgan or a bank where it's like have to come in in the collared shirts whatever it was and and really your days I'm sure they're fun like

people interning there but being a part of like a media company like the rollup in an industry like crypto and AI and all that it's it's really like you never know what's going to happen. You always have to be on your toes. Yesterday I mean we took a day trip to Connecticut with a bunch of boomers with a bunch of really knowledgeable people. Um, always being on the fly is something that >> we met. >> We met this crazy guy. Um, >> met a few guys. Chris >> Chrisner Chrisner. He's texting you like like you guys are bros from college. >> Yeah, I love that. That guy and he and he had like a former Jets lineback. So some a Jets linebacker. So hopefully we >> we're going to try and finesse him onto the show.

>> I'm down. >> Yeah. So we got like the pipeline working out the intern the intern series whatever it's got to go. But yeah, what is it like four months was like March I started here and like >> just everything just being like could be on a curveball. And I think that's just like life. You just got to be ready. You have like a plan for everything and then Arthur Hayes will just dump on you. Like the quote is like Mike Tyson, you have a plan for everything until you get knocked out. I think the crypto equivalent is you have a plan for everything just until Hayes dumps on you. So, but it's fun though.

>> Yeah, dude. Um, thank you Rugrat for the $1.99 donation. You're a legend. That'll pay for our White Claw. Cheers. >> Uh, cheers, brother. To a to a successful week. It's pretty busy, but uh, it was great. >> Didn't necessarily end the way that we wanted it to, though. Did it? You know, >> a week ago, we were like, you know, you could go apartment shopping, watch shopping, all that. And now, um, you're like scrambling around for like what am I going to do next? now. >> Well, last semester in college, then uh then the rollup job offers coming full-time. We're going to be going to uh I mean, look, we're trying to do uh we're trying to, you know, take a big swing here.

>> I mean, what were we called? A poor man's uh I mean, I thought >> poor man's coin desk. Somebody called us >> I was telling my mom we were a poor man's like CNN, CNBC. Now I have to tell her I'm a poor man's coin desk. Like it's not going to be a fun. [laughter] >> So, so the Stellar guys were getting really mad at us for the Stellar, bro. New type. It was your question, dude. Your question about XLM token. That pissed them off so bad. And and then they got really upset about that. And then they commented on us about being the poor man's coin desk. So, and then Robbie obviously flamed them for the Canton announcement.

>> I want to say one thing. I saw like comments saying like these guys will shill anything that like someone put a dollar amount. I just want to make it clear Hyperlid does not pay any KO, not any market makers, but if they do want to sponsor the rollup or even myself, Jeff, if you're listening, we will. We're all in. We are very bullish on hype for reasons stated. You could look at the clips. Um, but yeah, I don't know. I I would be so down for a Hyperlid sponsorship. >> That would be epic, dude. It's a beautiful day in New York, man. And what a what a Friday. What a Friday afternoon.

>> I you know who hit me up to get on a call was Capital Flows. Global Flows >> again. Yeah. We had him on earlier this week. He had some I think we're still due for a gamma squeeze. >> I think I I mean we need a bounce first. We're getting a bounce now. Hype back above 58. Um I mean dude, BTC ran those lows. Like I mean that might be enough for us to get a bounce. You know, you you you run those lows, people get all bearish at the bottom. They get super super bearish and then you get a nice bounce. That means >> Do you think we hit capitulation yet where like everyone is like, "Oh, I'm out." Like, it's I'm going to save myself.

>> Not yet. XLM can suck it. We all know what they're pulling. They're just dumping on us. Gez, new type. This guy's ruthless bro. >> I love it. >> This guy's ruthless, man. Man, what a week. You You guys have been so much fun this week, man. I'll tell you that. Like, uh we we've been doing this show for so long and doing all these interviews. like the sickest setup, dude. And we've just been waiting for the chat to get activated. And now it's activated, man. And it's fun. You You guys make this a lot of fun. Like truly, I mean, just reading the messages, going back and forth. I know Robbie loves it.

>> Um, it's just like fun, man. So, I'm I'm happy even though I'm I'm I am down like from the per top. I'm down like multiple six figures. But I am having fun. And I'm having my Friday Bev and we're just going to We're just going to pray a little bit this week. >> We're going to pray. [laughter] We're just going to have a smile on our faces, drink a little bit if we have to. That's fine. Just got to zoom out a little bit. >> We're just going to pray a little bit. All right. We're just going to pray a little bit. Yo, you guys like that thumbnail today, huh? There's There's a lot of views from uh the browse features.

>> Did shout out Hunter Biden on that. Was he on the thumbnail? Shout out Hunter Biden for shouting out Hyperlid. He shouted out Hyperlid. I thought that was pretty crazy. If we're going to defeat these anti-crypto people like Senator Warren, then we're going to need Hyperlid in the US. But I find it funny because when Hyperlid did come out, his grandfather, was it President Biden was in power and he was not down for crypto. So, it's a fun little like uh parallel I was reading. >> Yeah, man. Yeah, man. and Hunter Biden. And what a what a role model in this world. The rollup's a great show. Don't let XLM plebs bring you down. Oh yes.

>> Oh yes. >> Yes. We've got Alex here with the delivery. Uh what do we got here? We got 6 MGs. >> 6 MG. >> 6 MG Cool Mint Zins. 3 MG Cool Mint Zins. It is That's the top of hype bookmark it. You really think that's the top of hype? Wow. If that's top of hype, we're in trouble. >> Uh I think Mr. Shamus and Bitwise and insert any institution is in bad shape then cuz they're a lot of them are just buying now if I'm not m I mean Shamus he's a legend.

>> I mean he's going to be clipping this thing hard like they I mean look it could be like the short-term top I mean look if that's the top top on hype that would be crazy man. I mean look I can't lie those two daily candles are disgusting. Nasty. >> That weekly candle is disgusting dude. Bro, >> like it's bad. Let's look at the um let's let's go back to our trusted website. I'm going do a pull the screen up here, Leo, for us. By the way, Leo is our Leo's our producer. If you if you ever hear us say Leo, you know, pull it up. He's our guy in the back uh cooking.

We are close to a Bitcoin having Yeah, we are. Hunter running out of Coke money to buying the hype dip. Geez. >> Wow. >> That's crazy. >> That's a great That's a banger. >> That's crazy. I mean, dude, I'm looking at the hype. T-W says $2 million the next uh hour. So, Leo, we go ahead pull pull that up real quick. Um, we we we we can see >> one thing I saw with the Hunter thing just before we get to the numbers was Twitter's amazing. There's no place like Twitter. One of the quote retweets on that Hunter Biden Hyperlid tweet was some girl saying like, "You guys wanted a cracked dev, so now you have one."

>> But I'm [laughter] so dead, dude. I am so dead. A cracked dev. >> A cracked team. A cracked dev. Literally at a hotel. Hotel 8. >> Man, guys, Bitcoin at 59. Man, what a what a sight for sore eyes that is. Wow. That DAT is down 47% today. >> Wow. Is that the the cipher punk? >> The cipher punk one. Yeah, >> the Winkle bosses. >> Yeah, that that's that's that's rough, man. That is really rough.

>> You know, today I was like going seeing the portfolio like down like major and like I was just watching like a Bill Aman clip, the one like it's all about perspective, man. As long as you guys out there are healthy, like we're healthy, we're young, we're in New York, the Knicks are going to win the championship. >> Tonight is going to be so sick. >> They're going to cause like whatever you think your portfolio is worth, they're going to cause like billions of dollars in damage to the city. I'm sorry to the NYPD, to the whole government. the It's about to be carnage out there tonight. >> And it's not even a home game, bro. >> It's an away game.

>> Oh my god. Yeah, >> dude. Next week with the home games is going to be unreal. >> We have a perfect view of like the entrance to the garden here from the tokenization tower. So, we got definitely have to set up like a binocular like a camera. >> Isn't Kyle Sani down bad with his dad? Bro, so bad. Did you guys see David Sheamus oneshot Kyle on Twitter the other day? >> Yo, he's No one's safe. No one's safe. Yo, that was insane, dude. I want to show you guys this. I want to show you guys this.

Check this out. So, Smani's like, "Good analysis of Hyperliquid's legal predicament, TLDDR. They're between a rock and a hard place." And Sheamus comes out and says, "Hype versus Soul since the DAT announcement, bro." Oh, like yeah. Oh my god, bro. TLDDR absolute ratio ratioed him so bad. I mean, yeah. I mean, I was shocked to see honestly I was bearish. Like, I saw this and I was like, damn, bro. Sheamus, bro, you're better than that. You know what I mean? Like like like you you don't even need to engage with with Kyle. But these numbers don't lie, man.

I mean, >> I think cuz there's a lot it's like, you know, CT is like that echo chamber. A lot of nonsense, a lot of like emotional trading. So, >> I think it's good that he's doing that because he's putting like the numbers to his claim. Like, he's backing it up, which is amazing, which is like, how are you going to disprove that? So, >> I mean, bro, >> I mean, bro, this looks like a Christmas tree bro. >> Yeah, we really uh got some red light therapy. I was telling Andy, I think I got enough red light therapy yesterday, but I think the the cabal begs to differ.

>> This looks like a Christmas tree. What do we think, boys? Is Is that the bottom of hype for a little while? >> We're going to get Christmas in the July huh? >> 566. Yeah, >> Christmas in July, Hanukkah in July, everything. >> What was the tweet? Uh, Mom Donnie going to have his hands full. Yeah. I mean, with the with the NBA finals. Yeah. >> Oh, and President President Trump will be in attendance for game three, right? >> And game three, right? >> And four. He might double dip. He's a He's a New Yorker. He's a Knicks fan. I I mean, >> all right, let's do a little timeline reading. >> Hunter Biden. Yeah, I mean, this is that Hunter Biden tweet. Oh my gosh.

>> Wow. To in here shilling Phoenix trade. You got to love that. >> You got to love the Salana boys in there. >> Cloutchaser. Jesus. I'm too sidelined on Salana. What's your Phantom username? >> W Phantom intern. >> That's so good, man. That is a crazy tweet. >> Do you see what it was in response to on there? >> What's your stance on crypto and how are you going to fight Elizabeth Warren's anti-crypto army? Hyperlink. >> One word. >> It's pretty bullish, dude. >> That's all you needed to say. I I really like he could have like gave a whole thread, a this that a whole like nothing burger. But I think he he put it perfectly. One word.

>> Bitcoin approaching the lowest RSI ever. >> Damn. >> Yeah. I mean, this is probably like the lowest sentiment since I've been in crypto, >> right? Like like today. >> I mean, you're talking about all these banks, institutions, cuz like when I first joined, it was like, "Oh, the banks are coming. The suits are going to come. They're all going to buy our Bitcoin. We're all going to go to Valhalla." Well, they're all here. This I mean, the price is probably at uh I mean, it probably could bleed lower, but >> Can I hear Can I hear dip by pick from a ton?

>> Dip by pick. >> Yeah. What do you mean dip by pick? Like what like what coins are we buying the dip on? >> I was looking at hype actually. Yeah, I was I mean besides Hyperliquid those I mean pump fun. I I don't know. I just like I think meme coins are just always going to be here. Um I think they do have some stuff that they could fix on their end but I just look at the valuation similar revenue buyback program. Although they um cut it from like 100 to 50% but u I like pump fun. I like the majors. I mean, just BTC. I really just think BTC hype altcoin maybe pump fun.

>> Dude, Thread's not streaming today. >> He probably took a gander at the He's living life. It's Friday. It's like 80 90 degrees. >> Damn. Ruk is went on Thread. That's sick. He's been doing the rounds, man. He's He's been He's been crushing. >> Maybe SpaceX IPO marks the bottom. I don't know. >> Start praying. for Salana. Salana's in Salana. I actually don't even How badly did they get beat? Everyone's dunking on BTC E.

I'm sure Salana is getting >> Yeah, they they got hit for sure. >> Somehow 63 is crazy. >> Yeah, it's pretty bad. >> All you need is 100 Bitcoin to be rich forever. >> I wonder how much. What was it? 10,000 hype in a dream. That was what you were tweeting like. What was it? 10,000 hype. Bitcoin just recorded five consecutive green candles on the one minute chart. Bro, are you >> We're back. >> What are we doing? Wow. ETH daily RSI at 12. Oh my gosh.

>> Nasty. >> It's pretty bad. Uh, thank you. In 5 days, people will forget what happened and seeing Zcash pump on alltime high. Expect double bottom on short on hyper short-term. NOCSM, great content in Alpha. Teddy's in the building. He's got a Vault Summit, right? >> Straight from Vault Summit. We're doing a a power hour. >> I love it. I love it. >> Yes, sir. Doing a little power hour. Look >> a nice suit. >> How was Vault Summit? >> It was good, man. It was good. A lot of quality people out there. Had some good conversations. People were pretty bullish, you know, part of organization.

Everything Vault related was part of like a round table thing. >> Morph was doing a pretty good job, huh? >> Yeah. Of uh of curating these events. >> Yeah, Morph. Good turn. >> Did they um I was looking on Twitter. They were turning people away from the event for not wearing collar >> shirts. A lot of people got dress coded. No way. >> Yeah, Stephen got dress coded, too. >> No way. >> Crypto events are dress coding people now. >> Yeah. Well, it was a New York Stock Exchange, so I had to wear this down. Thank god I pulled up in suits. >> Yeah, you you look great. >> Thanks, bro.

>> You look great, man. I Yeah, we just finished I mean, we're finishing our stream. We're just power houring. >> Okay, so yeah, wanted to say hi. >> Having fun. Honestly, it's been a hell of a day, dude. >> A lot of red light therapy. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> A lot of red light therapy, man. >> Yo, let's get Hey, Leo. Let's get Teddy in here real quick. We got to show his uh We got to show his suit to the audience. Let's get Let's get camera one here. >> Am I looking at this? >> There he is. Yes, sir. >> Hey, what's up, guys? [laughter] >> Yes, sir. Guy looks dialed. Straight from Vault Summit, ladies and gentlemen.

The co-founder of Plume. Guys, doing great work. Big announcement with Ether Fi powering the nest here. These these these Empire State walls aren't going to hold themselves up. I'll tell you that. Huh. >> Wow. What a day. I mean, we're kind of bouncing back. Like, was that the bottom? >> Might be a bottom. We need someone like Jim Kramer to just come out and say crypto's dead. Like, if we get him with like a like a tweet saying like, "Yeah, you should buy," then maybe it's over. But >> I think he said Michael Sailor ended Bitcoin. I think that was his last Bitcoin tweet.

Wow. Uh Andrew King is everywhere. He's just running the podcast circuit. >> Running the circuit. >> Oh yeah. See, check this out. Mark safe from getting doormoged at the NYC vault. I'mma put on a damn shirt. They're listening. They're listening. with the bogey. He's mogging. I'm not going to lie. >> I mean, that suit's fresh, man. >> Wow. Wow. That's aura. >> So, Vault Summit had a dress code.

>> Y >> bro, the video from Charles Hoskinson throwing in the towels sending me. What is this? >> He like said like Ada Cardano is like 18 says I saw a clip of it. Maybe it was taken out of context, but it was like we're in the toilet. We're a basically. But >> wait, wait. is there's a there's whole videos here, but I want to just see if we can see a clip. >> Charles Hoskinson clip. Charles Hoskinson.

>> Yeah, it's literally like, >> oh, here we go. Uh, eight seconds. >> This year's going to be very hard. the second half of the year for Cardono, we're probably going to see more depths in DeFi die and a consolidation happen. >> This is the co-ounder of Ethereum as well is to >> resolve this. >> You know, I keep getting criticized relentlessly online. People every single day post on my Twitter feed the price of ADA and blame me for it.

>> Oh, wow. And I'd really like to know. I'd just like to understand what my agency is here. >> I don't know if you can hear this. >> I don't have any special powers. I don't have any ability to even initiate a hard fork, much less a protocol parameter change. I don't have access to the treasury. I don't even own the trademark for the name Cardano. All of the funding that was given for growing the ecosystem and governing the ecosystem was given to separate entities >> and at the all-time high billions of dollars. It was not given to me.

>> Oh man. >> So, how can I exactly influence and grow in solve this problem for you? >> He said Michael murdered. >> I'm being honest here. >> Wow. >> And I really would love to see an answer here. What power do I have? What control do I have over this? >> Wow. >> Oh, wow. >> Wow. Uh 88 was always garbage. So happy to see him fade. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. They're just kind of like Yeah. I don't know. Uh Michael, he said said he said Michael murdered Bitcoin. Yeah, he did.

>> He sure did. >> He did. That was the And then Sailor responded and was like, >> "No way." He did. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Jim Kramer and I think he was like, "Oh, it's nothing but a flesh wound." Uh yeah. See, sailor murdered Bitcoin. It's just a flesh wound. It's pretty funny. >> Wow. Yeah, guys. What a show. What a week. >> What a week. >> What a week, guys. Yo, Sigma Slayer. >> Sigma Slayer.

>> Guys, thank you for being a part of it. You know where to find us. If you guys are watching on YouTube, a bunch of you guys are in the chat. Hit the notifications on. Hit the like. Hit the subscribe. We appreciate you guys rocking with us. Same place. Empire State Building every single day. Monday 12:30 p.m. Next week we have a ton of like in-person podcast style show. There's a big ETH conference this week ahead. Um, so there'll be like a ton of like founders, investors, and builders kind of like style next week, but we'll be here Monday to Friday, 12:30 p.m. We're going

to track the market where we're going to talk with the founders, talk to investors, stay on top of it, and yeah, we appreciate y'all. Y'all are y'all are making the show a lot of fun. And you know, we were up a nice couple private jet plane rides on Monday and Tuesday, >> couple Rolex Daytonas, >> and we're down a couple Rolex Daytonas by Friday. >> Yeah. >> And [laughter] and we're not going anywhere. We are not leaving.

>> No, sir. >> So, >> the Leonardo DiCaprio meme, we are not selling. We are not leaving. We're just getting started. >> So guys, thank you for watching the rollup from the tokenization tower from the nest, the heart of New York City, the financial capital of the world. You know where to find us on Monday, 12:30 p.m. Eastern. We'll be here rocking with you talking about the market, talking about our positions, our hyperlquid positions, our Bitcoin positions, talking about how to navigate all of this craziness, making sure everyone's in it together. That's what matters. So guys, this has been Naton.

It's been a pleasure to roll on with the rollup army in the comment section. Like I said, I think we're I know we're only getting started. Stuff may seem bleak, but you just got to stick it out. Don't zero out. Don't leave. If you want if you're going to buy at higher prices, you might as well buy at lower prices. >> Ladies and gentlemen, it's been a pleasure. What a week. We'll see you guys on Monday. >> Yes, sir. Much love and cheers to the Cheers to the weekend to you guys. >> Cheers to the Warriors out there. >> Go Knicks.

>> Yeah. [ __ ] San Antonio. >> Nick's game two tonight. Let's get it. This was fun. Thank you for rocking with us, guys. Much love. See you guys on Monday. >> [bell] >> Let's [music] [music] heat. [music] >> [music] [music]

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