Hyperliquid’s Valuation, Crypto Markets Pullback, and the EVM Renaissance | Round Table

Transcript

you know how useless I am as well I'm literally always at home [ __ ] staring at my computer and this woman asked me for one nice finger entire life and I'm just gonna go back and say oh I couldn't figure it out damn the intro for this episode is going to go so hard this episode is sponsored by scale scale has differentiated itself from other layer ones by offering users a network of gas-free interoperable evml 1s where the user experience comes first explore the gas free ecosystem at scale. space b/ ecosystem and follow their Journey on X at scale Network to learn more about the gas free architecture and growth of the scale ecosystem visit the scale research Hub at scale. space resesarch chaos Labs the leading onchain risk management firm

recently launched its new flagship Oracle product Edge Edge delivers integrated High Precision risk and price data for any application with the market follow and reach out to chaos Labs on X to learn more hey everyone today's episode is sponsored by glyph glyph is filecoin foundational defi Prim enabling file coin holders to earn rewards on their Phill tokens by lending them to a diverse pool of filecoin miners got Phill deposit it with file coins first and most popular defi protocol by visiting glyph doio today nothing's head on zerox Research is a recommendation to buy or sell Securities or tokens this podcast is for informational purposes only and any views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our opinions not Financial

advice Pacho Ryan and our guests May hold positions in the company funds or projects discussed what's up guys welcome back to another episode of zerox research today I'm joined by Danny Dan Smith and Ryan Connor who will shortly be with us um we're gonna talk about all that is happening across markets with the first thing being hyper liquid the greatest thing to have ever launched that could change the fabric of society um but maybe before we get started Danny do you want to give a little I guess overview of everything that's been happening we saw a lot of liquidations yesterday um are you okay yes dude give the overview

man oh I can't Ryan walked away that was hilarious um yeah I think uh big thing with the markets this week there's been a ton of volatility um you know Bitcoin flirting with 100K you know either new Mark participants or existing like getting really excited about you know this this Milestone and um people loaded up on Leverage and we saw some pretty crazy like a pretty wacky Darth Maul candle on bitcoin recently um and surprisingly no sort of alt activity related to that until just recently um where we saw kind of more across theboard liquidations uh on BTC and alts um driving some of that

activity so um I know on H hyper liquid I think on their stats page the other day they saw over a billion in total liquidation which is pretty impressive considering just the like total amount of deposits on on the app um that's quite a high you know amount relative to the amount of size even being traded there so yeah just I think people getting people getting excited um you know want wanting wanting for stuff to keep sending and um you know getting smacked in the face they love the coins man they love them so much they want to own like 20 times the amount of money they have of the coins um but yeah like you said big big liquidations alts got hammered um today and yesterday uh to my listeners do not check your

portfolio or the charts they do not look good um but like you said it's like we're close to that 100K and then obviously well not obviously I didn't notice I was long but obviously it's a mental um resistance a lot of people are a lot of people selling 100K which makes me upset yeah I mean it's kind of interesting to see it right it took a while to break it we break it and then there's not like a ton of legs going higher um then you fast forward I don't know was it three to five days and now we're we're getting smoked these pullbacks are pretty normal throughout history um given where we are in the cycle and and looking at previous points um I think it's kind of like everyone

kind of knows these are coming and yet still gets addicted to the leverage and uh plays a part in in making these massive draw Downs uh but it was interesting we were having this conversation like right before this all melted down I think one or two mornings ago and it's was like you know what what does cycle top look like and I don't know when you start thinking about where we we are like you can definitely paint the picture um you know I I've taken zero chips off the table at this point in time so to take this with a grain of salt but uh you know nothing like fundamentally changed when we started rallying outside of the regulation side of things um new president bringing in a Administration alongside him that is very Pro crypto um and other members of

Congress coming in that are like outspokenly Pro crypto as well uh so that all is great I think and played like a emotional Catalyst but the reality of those implications are politics and regulation moves incredibly slow so anything that like wants to get changed will take months if not a year and change to actually be implemented and executed upon um and then inauguration day is like what January 20th I believe uh so I don't know it starts thinking like all right if everything's regul regulation based like that takes so long to play out um yeah it feels like we need like another driver here to like can carry the momentum personally for me I don't

have anything very meaningful to add to this I'm gonna say two things first of all I found it really funny that Donald Trump today like talked about how he wants Bitcoin to be 150k in his first few days in office um second of all I don't think we're close to the cycle top um and I I know deep down in your heart that you also don't think so because or else you probably would have taken some chips off the table um but I do I think at some point you have to start getting nervous um for me I think that number is 150k Bitcoin um I think 100K is a bit early but it's better to panic a little earlier than I actually don't know D what if you don't make it what if you take chips off the table and you don't

make it you ever think about that you can always get another job if you lose a bit of money but you can never like make more money um the problem isn't it that's exactly why everybody gets addicted to leverage and then we're now we are where we are right there as Ryan Connor says you can always get a job if you lose it all so load up the margin um lever it up slide it to the right and you know let's take some risks yeah it's um it's interesting to see the U I mean it never fails right like prices go down and people freak out um I think in times like these it's um you know being a more fundamentals oriented person is much easier than being a trading oriented person because

you're constantly just like guessing what like numbers on the screen mean then you'll never truly know because all you can see is the order book you don't see intentions and you're just kind of like betting on statistical happen stance um and what you've seen in the past and hoping that that carries forward um I think as like a fundamentals oriented person like I can think of a lot of things that I would have liked to invest in would I would have lik to have caught that have run to dramatically like insane valuations and uh a pullback is very welcome under those circumstances right like if you look across the crypto Universe today um there is no margin of safety right you're buying the you know

10,000 you're buying the 10,000 times sales coin and that's giving you no margin of safety you're basically betting on the greater fool to come in and pump it to like 15,000 times sales so um very much this is a welcome pullback there's there's some things that look attractive if you missed hyper liquid you hope it goes down right um You you really hope it goes down and um it's not it's not going down and and it might not go down uh but you you hope it does if you're not exposed yeah these things open up opportunities I'm excited for those the other reason that uh the other interesting thing came up in our conversation the other day picachio was you know you mentioned you know it can't be a cycle top because ethereum hasn't

cleared an all-time high and you know salana like barely tapped it and so I want to I want to touch on that a bit because I think that's like an interesting point of discussion um historically you would definitely have not seen that right like last cycle everything ran to like considerably new highs um and like anything that was launched that cycle it was multiples higher than its you know launch price basically um however you could like make a pretty coherent argument for like why eth wouldn't hit a new alltime high this cycle like it it's faced a lot of consistent headwinds and I'm not saying I I think that it shouldn't hit a new all-time high I'm just saying I think you could put a pretty coherent argument together around around that around like

the fundamentals changing it being at a point in its uh growth cycle where you know it choosing the L2 road map like could be the correct path forward but in the short term there might be like you know pain that leads to long-term gain basically and this could be this is where we are in that that growth cycle of that decision design decision um and then on the salana side you know when you look at Price yeah that like barely tapped to the previous all-time high but on a market cap basis you know it's like 50 60% cleared over its uh previous all-time high and it I think that's like the more relevant metric to look at here just given it was a fairly new token last cycle very early on in its issuance um token issuance life cycle and you

know fast forward to today it's like mostly issued the final unlock comes in March um and so yeah I I think actually salana has kind of cleared that alltime high Benchmark so I'm gonna say a few things um first of all I still subscribe to the like the cycle boom and bust I think like we get the same same exact cycle basically every cycle um until we start getting a bit more legitimized I think we still subscribe to that right now um and the reason for why I'm with Solana the market Cap's a fair point and I agree with you I still think 50% is too low um on the other side if I mean this thing has an ETF at this point like it

doesn't matter you and I know that it's like Eve has some issues um on their side but The Narrative is still pretty like clear for the ETF buyers no it's the world computer whatever smart contracts um the global Bond whatever you w to put in I don't know honestly I think I I really want to listen to like um I would love to hear like how just be a fly on a wall for like a bitwise conference where like I love Matt Hogan and Ryan rasmason and I would love to hear how they pitch it to that crowd um or I'd love to hear about like someone from Fidelity's team think how they pitch it to these trafi Giants I think that's like a really interesting thing to think about because what is that story yeah I

definitely agree with you that probably most of people listening to this podcast are uh in myself included like get too far into the weeds of like trying to understand the inner workings that's great on a long-term basis that's you know how you seek the truths but in the short term what matters probably is like the narratives being talked about yeah also Ryan before you jump one like to watch that uh bitwise um Pitch you can just like Larry FR talks about it on CNBC and stuff and that's what I think like most people here they don't hear us saying like the l2s aren't are cannibalizing the L1 they like they hear that there's flows into this they hear that it has like consistent like returns

um not returns yield rewards whatever they like to call it um and I think that's the pitch that most raty people get I think so i' I've been in the room during those pitches um from bitwise and issuers like bitwise um though it was during the 2122 time frame um the story is very different now right where you have um competitors to ethereum that are like very well known in like traditional circles like if you look at what coinbase covers from a research perspective they're focused on bitcoin eth and salana um when you're trafi guy and you're looking at you know where the opportunity is um the relative market

caps matter and the relative activity is going to matter and when you look at what fund Strat is pitching for example like eth is not an easy sell Sal is a much easier sell increasing network activity dominating in Revenue lower market cap right so it's it's a pretty clear-cut story um and I think that um TR going to see past a lot of these like like blatantly silly narratives like the internet bond is the worst Narrative of all time that's my favorite one man I'm like somewhat offended by that narrative it couldn't be more wrong across more Dimensions than like most um why you're lending it really it

really grinds my gears I I can't stand internet Bond the volatility profile between eth and abond is completely different a trafi person will look at that narrative and be like what the [ __ ] are youing talking about not over the last six months but yeah I get what you mean you're right yeah it's it's nonsensical and then when you when you scratch below the surface and you see like like the yield that you get on eth is simply like just issuance right like the Mev yield is like a half a percent like it's it's a very different story trafi folks are going to see through with are going to see through that I want to give another actually a concrete example here when it first like punched me in the face personally that they just trii is going to have a very different frame of mind mind around how they think

and conceptualize what these things are and um that example is I believe it was Matthew seagull from vanck I might be butchering the name there but um he or no it was someone from vanck and they were on I think a like a you know CNBC type show and they said that 4844 uh and the introduction of blobs was a price cut for ethereum right and like crypto Twitter had a snapback reaction of like you're an idiot that's not what they're doing and like talking about the story of the L2 road map when you take back like you take a step back and you're like yeah no that is of course how these people are going to

think about what just happened because they did reduce the cost um for this in the name of scalability and that was like this interesting moment where I was like huh like you know we talk about institutions are coming institutions are coming well yeah that's probably true and in that case they're going to think about things much differently than the discourse on crypto Twitter maybe to round it out I do want to take a step back and if we we mentioned ETF flows um and just sort of reviewing the the recent volatility around 100K for Bitcoin despite the the short-term price action of the past week um I mean the ETFs have seen inflows to the tune of around half a billion a day for the past uh several weeks several months at

this point um so if you're the guy loading up the 100x leverage long I I think you could have done it a while back maybe even maybe even at the outcome of the election rather than waiting for this elusive you know 100K Target to decide to go all in um on the eth side it it's not been so clean of a a straight line up but you know eth um ETF flows have also seen a bit of a bump um but for Bitcoin there's there's been this strong inflection since mid October and that has not slowed um in recent time despite the you know the actions this week with with price how often is it that large funds have to report their Holdings uh I think it's on a quarterly basis and that's kind of like when you get to see who is buying these ETFs

because there's like two different groups of buyers in traditional markets right I'm sure there's more than two but like in my head you've got you know the mom and pop buying for their brokerage account versus the the actual institution buying and also while we're on this topic it's a new pet peeve of mine that's get forming is like everyone tweeting like black rock is buying your eth black rock is buying your Bitcoin like that is not how this works and like I don't I'm not even totally convinced that people are aware of that no literally not how it works um black rock is not buying your bags they are providing a service for to help you buy uh Bitcoin and eth in your brokerage account they're taking a small fee for it they are not making a dis a discretionary decision right

and popular CT influencers still do not understand that dichotomy like black rocket is not discretionarily managing crypto exposure hey everyone we'd like to give a special shout out to the sponsors of today's episode scale scale is built different unlike other layer ones scale is offering users a network of gas-free interoperable evml ones where user experience comes first scale operates like the AWS infrastructure model where developers pay for space in the network in skl tokens to validators essentially scale has chain fees and not gas fees this allows for free transactions on scale and has saved 46 million users over 9 billion in gas fees explore the gas free ecosystem at scale.

Spacey and follow their Journey on X at scale Network visit the scale research Hub to learn more about the gas free architecture and growth of the ecosystem that's scale dospace research chaos Labs the leading onchain risk management firm recently launched its new flagship Oracle product Edge Edge delivers integrated High Precision risk and price data for any application with the market after 2 months of securing Jupiter Edge has already secured 30 billion in volume and more than 60% of all Salon of per volume edges comprised of three components High Precision price data with an integrated risk engine automated delivery of real-time parameter adjustments on chain and secure delivery of custom data points via zero knowledge proofs follow and reach out to chaos Labs on X to learn more thanks again to chaos labs

for sponsoring today's episode quick shout out to the sponsors of today's episode glyph glyph is file coin's foundational defi primitive enabling filecoin holders to earn rewards on their fill tokens by lending them to a diverse pool of filecoin miners simil to lsts like Li Oro glyph solves a major capital inefficiency for filecoin glyph currently has over 19 million Phil deposited and over 15 million Phil in total volume and is backed by the filecoin foundation multicoin capital and more got Phil deposited with file coin's first and most popular defi protocol by visiting glyph doio today thanks again to glyph for sponsoring today's episode um all right biggest thing that happened this week is last week when the hell did hyper liquid

launch the they are an amalgamation I don't know how anything works anymore but um hyper liquid launched and my boss my manager Ryan Connor asked me to pull make a um comp sheet which I actually hardcoded the numbers into on Google Sheets so he might kill me but um this is what it looks like so this I'm going to first do comps based on perss and then we'll do comps based on chains and then we'll bull post or be post about it so this is at 150% zoomed I hope that works um okay let's run through this pretty quickly so initially at launch I had

guessed that it would launch at um three mil three and a half mil which a three and a half bill which was actually like undercut the team launched at two bill which I think is ridiculously low for for a really really good product um they essentially gave everybody a 5X um if you just held or bought um the launch yeah so based on fees I mean these guys do more fees than anybody else um including GMX this data is based on Dy DX's fees so because hyper liquid feeds aren't public um which is kind of not great but what do you mean by that what do you mean by fees or not

public well it's just like with Hyper liquid some of the fees go to the HL people some go to the insurance fund and the rest just um just go to a variety of smart contracts which I am unaware of and they're not collected anywhere else um so I'm basing this off of dydx um I assume that they're going to start clarifying that when the chain launches and when hyper liquid staking is done um because I I assume they're going to do some format where it Acres value to hpe stakers um but for now it might also be that I just haven't looked deep enough to be honest with you Daniel like it might be very obvious I just haven't been able to found it I know like a

portion goes to the hlp pool and a portion goes to the Insurance Fund but I don't know which portion and how much um but you as a Trader like you know if you pay like 10 bips or whatever yeah yeah cool yeah but the thing is that you can't really do it based off that because obviously volume different volume tiers have different um fee rates make or taker fees vary um also market makers typically have negative fees um so yeah b i based it off of dydx which I think should be a pretty good comp um and what we see is that over the past 30 days hyper liquid based on my assumptions has 19 mil in fees um annualized which is

227 mil um and at an FTV of 13 bill it is at 57.1 19 FTV over fees um previously drift and dydx were comparably um much much higher so I think that like FTV over fees premium that um drift had it just doesn't exist anymore Ryan do you want to jump in here and Grill me a bit I think like it just goes to show like the easy gains have been made in hyper liquid um and I think the premiums deserved because it's trying to build out a spot ecosystem

like and that's sorry oh yeah see those comps is like yeah it's it's that that's the critical thing yeah so now I'm jumping to the um the chain comps because like you said they're trying to launch an L1 um which actually they um they added permissionless test net validating for today so I assume it's relatively close um the launch of main net we'll see um but based on that I think Ryan do you think we can take the same fees for it because the fees are still paid to the L1 anyway um So based on those fees it is relatively undervalued I would say

like drastically even SOI this really shocked me and that this is partially why I wanted Dan Smith on here because I want him to kind of help me out with this I'm very stupid low IQ um sui had $83,000 in fees over the past 30 days according to Artemis apos had 55.6 uh K in fees over the past four days according to Artemis um annualized these are ridiculously low and it puts their FTV over fees ridiculously high like sui at 36.2 uh K and Aptos at 18.55 K is ridiculous compared to hyper liquid which which is 57.2 still because

we're taking the same fees over 30 days um how do you make sense of I it it feels too good to be true at this point to the point that I'm like does that like does that make a lot of sense yeah my my first comment would be that like yeah so those I think that you know I trust the data providers here the the problem though is that um you're leaving out that Mev component that may or may not exist uh on Su or Aptos but like no doubt it kind of will down the road as those like is that tooling and projects come to Market and that's that ecosystem kind of forms um and stakers end up you know being a part of that ecosystem so like I don't know discount these when you don't

fully understand the metric in crypto and it like seems high like I just kind of like discounted by 75% um even yeah yeah hyperli I mean I think of like Sal's valuation right like on like a forward like rev basis I think it's trading at like 30 40 times um so hyper liquid at 57 times I mean that's pretty reasonably priced like pricing can get wackier um like easy gains are gone I think the reason that the token got bid so much is you know you had sophisticated Market participants seeing the airdrop seeing the initial price and being like okay we have a Target valuation like we're going to bid until our expected rii goes down and like that's kind of what happened

now you have like a reasonably priced token and like all they have to do now is execute right and they can expand hard they can expand the the revenue side and they can expand um their kind of Premium valuation on the market based on that execution so um I don't hate the hyper liquid story yeah I think it's a pretty interesting uh way to visualize the benefit of this quasi app chain general purpose chain where the token holders would potentially acrw both the chain level fees and the you know primary application let's call it in this case that's the The perpetuals Exchange um the fees is generated by that it's pretty unique um you do see

this a little bit elsewhere right like dydx is trying to do the same thing honestly the the overlap between dydx and Hyper liquid is is pretty interesting so you think back to the dydx origin story you know they launched a billion dollar airdrop when that was unheard of um and now they're ultimately building the same product it obviously dydx went a very windout way to get here vers hyper liquid had this the second mover advantage of uh being able to kind of call their shot and choose their starting point a little bit more on a little using a little bit more information honestly learning greatly from the dydx um origin story and so I think uh from a fees standpoint yeah they're they're probably poised to do pretty well and if they do get the you know I think the evm compatible v um

general purpose chain up and running you're going to see people build over there right I think it was fidy who's a curve developer developer for the Curve protocol um the application the decks on ethereum Main net and other l2s you know they they like launch test net contracts so there is some early interest to to go be a part of that I think they did a hyper liquid did a very good job of capturing that capturing mind share everybody's obsessed with it everybody's talking about it the product's good they got people over there you know they kind of have this hot ball of users let's say and people want to be in front of that so there's an incentive to take the time and effort to go launch over there um yeah I think they got momentum in the world and then I think one of the other

questions you're kind of poking at is why are Aptos andu fee aggregate fees so low um you know when they have super cheap transaction fees and when you do this you need to make up for that with a large volume of transactions like the gold standard everyone should be chasing after is a high volume of low fee transactions um salana was the first chain to actually bring this to life where you saw tens of millions of transactions per day all paying relatively low fees um but I think Aptos and S are trying to take that like a you know one one step further they have like more theoretical throughput uh and potentially can keep a more sustained low fee um for

non-contentious transactions so it'll be interesting to see if they can achieve the attention side of the equation right they've got the the sort of the supply side figured out but getting the demand side is very challenging and Hyper liquid kind of went the opposite way build out the demand side using this uh again let's call it like this primary this Chief application and then build out the supply side later so um yeah it doesn't shock me that apos andu have such low fees right they they're they're only a year old uh year in change so getting that demand side built up just takes a whole time like a whole life cycle of bootstrapping an ecosystem just to add add a bit of I agree with you on um the Su APPA side just to add a bit to the dydx comparison I actually don't like the dydx comparison um specific Al

because dydx went a different way I think like the parallel is the L1 parallel it's pretty clear um but dydx moved a lot of their matching engine offchain um and as far as I understand and this exists on the Chain today it's just not an evm compatible chain uh hyper liquid has put everything or they've attempted to put as much as they can on chain um including the matching engine including the order books which I think is like kind of drastically different and this is me thinking from a pers P perspective rather than the L1 perspective is that we've seen one um like we've seen some crutches um drift vertex um they use an amm just in

case um AO and dydx move a lot of their like components off Chain versus Hyper liquid which is kind of trying to do like this the perfect system um whatever that means to you as like a perator and it's it's I worked out um also I feel kind of bad for dydx because I think if they had just focused for another year they probably could have like not died out this quickly but that seems to have been the story with like you said the second mover Advantage the first mover gets a bit lazy says we have all the volume any May why like why the hell would I care don't list any assets don't worry too much about shipping and then some guy comes in and builds it out for you um meat of the move being done I don't know this is my only thing is like

my targets were 30 40 bill um I don't like talking Targets on the podcast that much but my targets were that and then honestly pulling up this comps sheet and looking at the sui and appos valuations I think like you know why not maybe not 1600x um but I think there's definitely like more room to grow over here if because they have a good product it all depends on execution like you said Ryan um really about like what can they can do with the L1 and I don't know I like the this is one of the few teams that I can like comfortably bet on in crypto oftentimes like a coin having a team to me is a bad thing um but this coin has a good team which makes me happy yeah it's

I think it's all about if they're able to bootstrap the spot asset ecosystem um historically um the path that they're taking is very different right spot assets spot asset trading has come first and then like the derivatives ecosystem next they are doing it backwards and the spot assets are everywhere else right so you have to convince spot asset issuers that there is enough sticky volume on hyper on hyper liquid to go issue assets over there or set up Bridges to go over there um TBD on if that works I think it's really hard at this stage in the game um they benefit from eth kind of like fumbling and causing that

fragmentation and confusion for evm based asset issuers like given the position that hyper liquid's in like maybe you know you know Dan you mentioned curve um that's pretty interesting for them to kind of like reinvigorate that token in a new ecosystem um I don't know how much um market share they're going to take from the svm side of things however I think that's a fair point and I I we see there's this is the next topic that I want to talk about and I think it's going to be a pretty decent segue there's um we're seeing an actually relevantly significant shift on the evm side this year um I said this before and that Smith called me a [ __ ] but I

don't think the current implementations of l2s are good I think they're dog [ __ ] um I think the old evm stuff like Avalanche and binance were and Phantom I guess um where they just changed the e to a a and they're like oh this is actually the Avalanche virtual machine um I don't think they were particularly interesting as well I think it was just like consensus changes um please correct me if I'm wrong anybody um okay but I'm excited for monad I know a lot of people are saying monad is gonna flop I'm excited for monad I don't care if it flops this cycle I think it's still like what they're doing is cool um like they're actually trying to rebuild something and make something efficient and I find that exciting I don't care

for that Community aspect that they're trying to do I'm sure it'll do well for them but like I'm not going to be Discord grinding away to get allocation um but I do like what they're building bar chain a lot of bar chain haters in this podcast right now I think it's like at least they're trying something new and lastly hyper liquid obviously um lastly Mega Eve I know it's just one super charged sequencer doing all the work and then they're like oh we have full notes but they're actually light notes I don't care let's try something new I think it's fun and I think like the e VM if it has a Renaissance I think it's this year and next year um and like you said I agree with I

don't know how much money goes away from the svm to hyp uh hyper liquid but I think there's going to be a lot of competition on the evm side and I'm excited to see uh what comes about yeah I I'm I'm excited for the the integrated EVMS I think that they give e developers a kind of like new like new and expanded sandbox to play in they'll be able to do things that they couldn't do elsewhere and I think that that's important uh poking around on arbitrum and base um over the past few days I was quoted $5 trading fees um that's a that's a big number compared to what I'm used to um and that that limits that puts a ceiling on your activity um so

you know it's I think the important thing when looking at these ecosystems is to not write them off too quickly like historically how long has it taken for a chain to like show any meaningful activity like 18 months best case scenario maybe hyper liquids an exception like I think you need to um I think um it's important to be patient um that being said like I think manad is like something pretty special with what they've done to bootstrap the community before the product has launched that's like very exciting to me I think you need an HBS study on that if maned ends up being a thing like people are hyper excited about that this is the only only thing I'm going to really strongly

disagree with you on I love you Ryan I I really don't mean to do this but I think that Community is like in crypto all communities are relatively fake um I think like I love monad I genuinely do I think it's super super cool but like that Discord thing I think it I'm happy to be wrong um not really but like if I'm wrong I'm wrong but I I don't think it unless they can deliver like that thing can turn quite negative um which I think they will deliver so it should all be fine yeah I think Community is mostly BS um but like I don't know they have an army of people posting this like little purple character and raising awareness for a thing um I haven't really seen

that elsewhere so I think it'll be interesting to see how quickly they can bootstrap it given that they do have this enthusiastic base of supporters pre-product I do agree with Ryan a little bit here I mean I think the the kind of ctin factor we've seen you know even products with or maybe projects with without products with any usage um that build strong Cults see you know relative success from a maybe a price perspective um regardless of that I do think what monad has been doing like pre-launch in regards to you know fostering startups um having competitions to you know encourage Builders to um start working on you know app ideas for the chain um it's it's a

little bit different than I think we've seen from any other chain previously where you know typically you know the product comes out and you get all the you know the quick kind of CopyCat apps from you know the same ecosystem if it's an evm chain to an evm chain you know you get all your swaps and your lending apps really quickly um I've seen quite a bit of variety out of the at least the early startups it's it's sort of TBD when they launch we'll see like what actually gets used and what's what's real but at least from that point um I'm relatively excited to at least see what kind of they they've got built when this thing launches because you know based on what we're seeing now they should have like a a vibrant ecosystem of apps on day one which would be quite interesting

compared to other launches where you know a chain and a token come out and then there's nothing to do there for months or there isn't even a chain or there's no chain and there is a token um and it's you know locked up in a contract on ethereum yeah um Danny Smith any takes yeah first of all I don't think I ever disagreed with you that evm for like Forks of G as l2s were like good I I don't tend to think that you said they're bad at ex I said they're bad at execution you said we got into semantics debate about what execution means so yeah no I I generally agree with you um in the point you're making here on the bar chain piece like I just sent you a tweet of Eden web 3 Global

which is apparently the first sexual products on a blockchain built on bar chain so like yeah you want to know why I don't think it's real [ __ ] like that like is it different is it cool is it different yes is it cool that's that is your decision to make um but I'm I'm curious about blockchains as ass asset ledgers and the transfer of financial assets on chain that's what gets me out of bed um pun intended I suppose and so when I think about like uh monad like yeah I agree with you I think they're doing really cool stuff on the tech side none of it's uh been published yet they're keeping everything closed Source until launch

makes sense keep your Edge I don't hate that at all um I don't know I I think I also agree with your point yeah I basically agree with everything you said I'm realizing I'm just agreeing out loud now except for be chain color me a hater what about bar chain one thing I'm gonna say and then we can move on to something else um I think that Cosmos evm connection thing has been like something that the cosmos is working on for so long and it's just hasn't happened um Kanto OS it's clearly a tough thing to do so I'm excited about that I think it's going to be super duper PVP um and basically like you try yeah I agreed with that they're building an arena for like everybody who [ __ ] surrounding the trenches to come

compete and like that's probably a good thing to be honest um in terms of product standpoint like that's what we that's everybody in this industry right um like salana has won a lot of that attention so far with this meme coin game um so if anyone can iterate on that game and bring it somewhere else I think that's like a pretty big like yeah that's a multibillion dollar opportunity in my mind yeah just yeah whatever all right we're good guys thank you so much for coming on this was a pleasure um yeah thanks for coming on until next time my friend until next time see y'all see you thanks again to scale for sponsoring today's episode if if you

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