How MakerDAO is Becoming Crypto's Top Revenue-Generating Machine | Analyst Round Table

Transcript

damn brick you look hella handsome today thank you very much okay I'm down to down to roll what's up everyone welcome back to another episode of zerx research if you're listening to this podcast there's a good chance that like Dan and I you believe the future of Finance is on the blockchain and we're excited that London is becoming a global hub for blockchain Innovation and institutional adoption of digital assets that's why we're pumped to host the 2024 digital asset Summit in London this March don't miss your chance to get of the curve later in this episode we'll tell you how you can save 20% off on your ticket all right everyone welcome back to another episode of ZX research I'm joined today by Matt Ren and brick to bring you guys another analyst episode we're recording this on

January 2nd so happy New Year everyone hope you enjoyed the holidays took some time off touched some grass got away from the screens because we are at the start of a bull market and things are about to get fun but very very busy so uh guys thanks for joining me today we got a lot lot lined up on the Slate to jam on uh a couple good things maybe we start this with a News segment round and then we'll get into Hot Seat cool Throne uh let's start with the Avalanche announcement that the foundation is going to be uh essentially the foundation is longing meme coins for whatever that's worth so they put out a tweet announcement ear in the middle of last week that reads a portion of it reads the avalanch foundation intends to start using culture Catalyst which is

this program that they have within the foundation to recognize and encourage the culture and funds symbolized by meme coins by purchasing select Avalanche based meme coins to create a collection so they took a lot of backlash from this unsurprisingly from crypto Twitter uh first and foremost crypto Twitter will hate on you for doing anything and everything uh but this one may or may not have been deserved so some viewed this as like a sign of dep desperation and an attempt to continue being relevant uh others were like oh no this is a great idea the signs of being a thought leader and doing things people haven't done before um you know if you put this in retro or fit this into the kind of a few of the other PR mishaps that Avalanche has had earlier this year

you know they even openly recognized that the whole Stars Arena event was a bit of a disaster and for those that don't know Stars Arena was like a essentially a friend Tech clone but built on Avalanche and the foundation kind of came out foundation and core members of the team came out and really supported this team and kind of doubled down after a few exploits and they continually got exploited uh and it's really just a bit of a PR disaster um but net net I think that this is a on the meme coin announcement it's definitely a bit strange I don't know if I necessarily want my uh my core Founders really promoting meme coins I mean yes they're doing great things and yes they're focused on things other than mem coins but like I don't know that

kind of just feels like this dark side of crypto you just have to let exist and almost like you don't acknowledge it exists in a lot of ways um I saw a a I can't remember who or what it was but basically is this Institutional Investor he's just ranting about how much he hates mcoins because it makes him feel like you know this industry is a joke and when he goes and talks to professional investors like it's always this thing he has to try to you know talk his way out of and I definitely get that sentiment but at the same time I I think it's just gambling and gambling is a humongous industry um but we don't definitely don't talk about it as gambling you know we talk about it as trading and I think that's like a huge distin that really needs to get made

over the long run but for now um it is very interesting to see the foundation kind of come out and and make this announcement I definitely made a splash if nothing less but I'm curious if you guys have any thoughts on the Avalanche Foundation supporting uh the meme coin adoption on their chain I think to some extent memecoins have this you know I hate to say this but they almost have this like baseball card like tendency where you could see how long-term like maybe some coin stick around it's like a historical thing where it's you know was something that was originally created on Avalanche Avalanche continues its success and becomes a a predominant L1 in the crypto ecosystem like maybe these OG mem coins that really helped build community and

then became kind of like a you know a way of showing off that you're like a big part of the community or whatever like maybe they'll continue to acrew uh interest over time I don't think you can look at them like an investment maybe like a collectible if that um you know at the end of the day I guess we have seen some coins like Bon go out and create actual products that intend to drive fundamental Revenue back to the Token in some way so like for all we know you know [ __ ] or whatever it might be could go ahead and do that I actually think there's a good is is is the hot meme coin on salana I feel like we just need to clarify that sorry Matt continue on avalanch that's salana oh sorry sorry I said you said Bon put Sal in my head

good call [ __ ] is the predominant New Meme coin on aanch Thank You Ren yeah up some 20x in a month it's SP CQ so don't worry there's nothing in appropriate about it um it's [ __ ] enu Inu so whatever maybe that let's continue there's a chance that these meme coins could like continue see see success and interest in the long term in the same way that like any speculative Market of something that doesn't actually have value continues to hold up uh like we see saw this very predominantly in covid with like a lot of a lot of these collectible items but at the same time like I do see the point of you know you don't necessarily want your foundation that's supposed to be building out the ecosystem to for that to be their main P primary goal guess I could see you know

it's cool you're bootstrapping a community of meme people engaging you know on Twitter and maybe in your forums and whatnot so like there's some value there but at the end of the day like yeah we Pro they they you know what they do though they do also go make deals with big trafi institutions and stuff so I can't knock the Avalanche Foundation I think they do a great job uh but yeah it was an interesting decision to say the least I think at this point Avalon should really lean into the institutional narrative since that's kind of what they've been going for and actually I feel like have seen a decent amount of success in the past year leading into that institutional subnet narrative and along with the validator tokenomics VHA whether that's coming along or not I feel like they should just focus on that you know their name

was plastered on that JP Morgan uh Onyx layer zero sort of like testing thing and that was one of the a very like prominent use case which made sense for Avalanche subnets and I don't know like yeah I want to say buying mean coins feels a bit desperate like Avalanche D5 is pretty dead you've seen a lot of cases where D5 Founders on Avalanche moved on to other chains most notably being Trader Joe who started on Avalanche and eventually migrated to AR and they're going to launch something new on mantle um and obviously I think people will have other concerns at some point Avalanche Foundation is probably going to buy a m coin that's G to rug

and it's going to look horribly on them just like the Stars Arena thing um obviously there's probably going to be insider trading fears too like it's not hard to if you're on the Avalanche Foundation team buy a mcoin before the foundation buys it and sends it like 500% so yeah I'm not a fan I think mem points have a place within like each of their ecosystems but the foundation buying it like I don't think that's a good look yeah my first reaction to this was kind of or you guys nailed it pretty much with your takes but yeah my first reaction was um getting the vibe of avalanche being a boomer who wants to like join the rest of the party with the younger people and like kind of forces themselves into the

whole thing and they had a great um kind of organic um narrative going on with the COO Q token um but now I don't know it kind of ruined the WIP for me but we'll see what happens yeah I like the call about working with like JP Morgan and really focusing on like institutional subnet adoption I think they had they've had a lot of focus on that for a long time and I don't think that's changed one bit uh so it's honestly kind of hard it feels like to do both ends of the spectrum so hard right like an Institutional kyc subnet on on one side and the other side is you know a meme coin dubbed cocking you like I don't it's hard to do both uh like it's you kind of got to pick a land and go all in in some regard but I don't

know if you really like memes are culture I think nfts last cycle proved that uh and meme coins are really just the same thing as you know a 10K pfp in a lot of different ways um so I don't hate it I don't love it it just kind of is in my opinion uh but yeah I I don't think they should be shocked at the backlash they got on Twitter but you know if if they're supporting their community and that's what you the goal of the culture Catalyst probably is to support what the community is doing if that's what the community is doing then that's kind of what you got to support ultimately so that's kind of the way I'm looking at it um go ahead Matt you got to keep in mind the possibility that they have information that we don't too so like what if this is and this is kind

of out there thesis but what if it's all just a play because they want to acquire the Coq token because they know that it's a team that's you know very legitimate and working on some cool product that's going to launch if anyone was going to know these a nonfounders of this ridiculous named coin it probably would be the Avalanche foundation and that's always just a possibility so while that's like out there and I would definitely not invest in anything based on that thesis like at the same time it's definitely possible and I wouldn't be surprised even if we saw uh some some type of Bot or something that nature launch from some of these some of these mcoin teams in the near future yeah we got a good uh discussion on Bon and the Bon trading bot coming up later in the show but that's that's a definitely a

good flag and you I think Bon is kind of a a great way of how you can start as a meme coin and kind of translate transition into this like real protocol that and now like Bon is truly uh more of a protocol typical protocol token than a meme coin now but it still like gets this meme token feel which is kind of a really interesting way but again we'll get into that uh later in the show another news update we have is the dimension airdrop Matt I'm G throw this one over to you to kind of walk us through what dimension is and a little bit about their airdrop so I'm definitely not an expert in dimension but I did spend a little bit of time reading about it today basically it's a settlement layer where you can go easily launch a roll app or an application

specific rollup so the idea here is that you'd use a different layer for data availability so you go use SLG or ethereum or wherever you align slash get the best cost or whatever as your data availability layer and you would use dimension for settlement um Dimension has IBC built into it so these roll apps can communicate with each other in a you know trust minimized nature at least compared to other rollups today so this allows for like easy bridging um you know the ability to do cross chain swaps more more simply and things of that nature so the IBC aspect of it is pretty cool Dimension also has like a liquidity layer so if you're going to go do swaps between these roll apps it actually occurs on uh you know the dimension L1 other than that you know I'm not super well versed in what's going on in

dimension or its intricacies I do know the token is supposed to have value as like if you create a roll app you have to bond the token in order to uh sequence your roll app I believe that if you want to be in the liquidity layer on L1 you have to pair your token with Dimension kind of in like a thorchain rune type model uh but like I said definitely not an expert they gave the token out to a ton of wallets I think it was in the something like a million wallets received this aird drop so it's definitely one of the biggest aird drops uh you know by number of wallets that received it that I've ever heard about for reference arbitrum was about 600,000 wallets uh so very large number of wallets received it likely it won't be a huge airdrop but they gave it to tons of

different networks so if you were a rollup user use ethereum rollups if you've used Wormhole to bridge if you hold a madlad on Solana um if you're staking Celestia just to name a few of the users who they gave these tokens to one interesting thing about this type of airdrop is you could potentially see how it would lead to bringing a ton of different communities that are mostly uh you know isolated and not not uh not a ton of layover between for instance like the people out transacting on salana every day and the ones doing it on arbitrum so being able to if they are able to get both of those communities and user bases interested in dimension claiming their tokens and messing around over with the roll apps built on top of it there is a chance that it could see a lot of interest uh from a lot of

different markets within the greater crypto Market I think it's a cool and interesting project but that said I'm not not speculating that you know the air drops are going to be worth a ton of money I would wouldn't be surprised if it ended up even being in like the $50 to $100 range I could see being a bit more for sure uh depending what you were doing I think you got between 500 and 1500 dym tokens like depending on which activities you qualified for uh but yeah like that's kind of how I saw the dimension play out I'm excited to read more about it and get a better understanding of it soon I find the uh distribution very interesting and you you highlight highlighted this that they're really trying to pull a bunch of communities together we've seen this trend kind of continue um most recently

I think of pith that also did this right they had this large audience of uh different protocols users of different protocols that were pith enabled so like example as perex is across various chains that were all using pith where those users actually got this this airdrop and so what that did was pull a lot of ethereum users just because that's where most per Dees lived is ethereum or ethereum l2s um and it pulled that community over to salana and gave them you know a couple thousand bucks to go play around on salana which is uh this kind of this interesting method of course that was like less about attracting users to pith and and more so ended up being like better for salana um but this is definitely a trend that I I've seen and I think we'll continue you know with Dimension I think

it makes a bunch of sense as well if you need to kind of bootstrap this ecosystem uh of not only Builders but users that kind of need to act as a settlement layer like you need value on your chain for that to be useful um so it's definitely interesting to see this I mean I I know we talk about this a bunch but uh the the T stakers getting it this is kind of the the theory is this is the first of many so maybe we'll see a continued trend for for that department my kind of only take away from this was that like if I've understood correctly the amounts per wallets um people have gotten are quite small but then again it was also super easy to qualify

uh to get an air drop so I've seen some takes on Twitter for example of people like saying that it would have been pretty easy to like Cel this um airdrop because all you kind of had to do is just this one specific task of which there were many and the tasks weren't that like hard to um accomplish so there might be a lot of like air drops going to these Butters I think takeaway there though is if you're know if you're put yourself in the shoes of the protocol like why would you make that decision cyle detection is like super challenging to do right but there are a lot of examples of how to like cast at least a wide enough net to to mitigate some of it but if you're

still going that route of so assume that like you know they knew they'd get some Bots doing this or I should say they'd reward some Bots with this methodology and they still pursued it the question becomes why like why is that a good idea and if you want to give a little value to a lot of people to me that tells me that you don't necessarily need rich users but you need users right even giving 50 bucks to somebody that will still bring them to your chain um and again based on their goal to be this settlement layer this form of value you want a bunch of people with a bunch of money so then rooll apps are more incentivized to launch there because you have all of these rich users or not necessarily rich but you have all of these users right you have this

interaction going on on chain you know I think that's that's like why eth is such this exciting settlement layer why you see things like Eclipse um that's going to use Celestia da which is much cheaper and much better to create a a scalable chain but still use your settlement put your Bridge contract on ethereum it's because they have this huge user base this huge liquidity Source right so I kind of get why that makes sense for Dimension yeah I get your point but um I gotta bit or push a bit back on that because like right if you have uh some huge Bing networks that are going to like acrew most of the or maybe not most of the value but like huge amounts of value from these air drops meanwhile most of the basic people or like regular

users are just getting a small pie of it it's going to be like kind of a or create an unfair structure to the airdrop and then that might backfire for you in the future if like things come out that oh the like tokens where a dropped most to the like bers or whatever it does decentralize the network pretty well so we actually saw somewhat similar with arbitrum as far as not you know doing a super intensive civil protection in their a drop they actually rewarded quite a few air droppers with quite a bit of ARB or sorry Cil Farmers with quite a bit of AR ARB um and one thing that it did achieve for arbitrum Dow was like pretty solid decentralization in the network as far as having a lot of community

participants with you know delegations or rece at the end of the day it ends up with a lot of tokens being distributed to a lot of wallets um you doubt the bot farmers are going to go uh keep their tokens so at the end of the day you have a lot of wallets holding this token likely in the near future so that does Aiden decentralization and building off Dan's point about working with Celestia like I think that's something we should probably hit on which is Celestia is this huge narrative really cool data availability layer but it doesn't enable settlement which dimension does so even though like I'd never really done too much research on Dimension I just heard it in passing I do think that that particularly interests me how it pairs with Celestia H you use dimension for s for uh settlement and you use Celestia

for data availability and that pairing kind of works pretty well and I could see it even maybe like Contin a narrative in the future though that's not my base case like I definitely wouldn't be surprised if that happened all right zerox research listeners we're calling on you to join us for the premier institutional crypto conference in Europe's crypto Capital London this March 2024 you're going to get to hear exclusive insights from industry Trailblazers on things like leveraging dii protocols for institutional yield tokenizing real world assets with instant settlement navigating the evolving Global regulatory landscape integrating digital assets into Banking and payments or crafting institutional invest mandates with digital assets as the key Focus we'll also be featuring some big keynote speakers including Melvin Deng the CEO at qcp Capital Mark

yuso the CEO and managing partner of Morgan Creek capital and stonnie cluen the founder and CEO of a companies this is not an event you're going to want to miss seats are limited so be sure to register today by hitting the link in the description and using promo code 0x20 to save 20% on your tickets see you in London the land of tasty pastries and be sure to hit up Dan and I for a speaking of Celestia though I guess this is kind of digressing away from Dimension but everybody keeps talking about Celestia underneath how many tweets have you seen that's oh this is using Celestia I'm using Celestia for my new rollup uh Celestia underneath has become this like mini Twitter narrative uh well I'm running the data on selesia right now there are three uh there I'll pull this up uh later in the show but

there are three name spaces using Celestia so names spaces are basically like if I was a roll up and posting my data to Celestia I would have my own name space that was like Daniel's rollup and this where I put all my data so I can easily go find my rollups data and just nobody's using it yet so I like I don't know why this is I don't think this is a red flag by any means I just find it interesting that we keep seeing I'm using Celestia I'm using Celestia and yet nobody's actually using Celestia the they're all using celesia test net because they're still working on getting this implementation live I don't know if there are hiccups to getting these things live my gut tells me no that's not the case and it's just like spinning up this new a new chain is not like a

overnight task really uh and so we just haven't seen those come online come live yet so I'm if I don't see anything in q1 I'm probably gonna be in that mode of starting to get nervous of course Brick's laughing at me because he's probably thinking it just doesn't matter it's going to be the narrative trade anyways but it is interesting to see that there are literally only three name spaces being used uh and I don't know what they are so you can name your your name space anything like Daniel's rollup or just a hex string of numbers and letters and of course the three that are being used are just three strings of numbers like 0808 Z eight or one of them I think is 2410 uh and then the third one is like just random string of numbers so no idea what these are and my guess is it would

be somebody testing something but it's just too hard to say uh kind of a question for you do you happen to know what the name space was that pumped The Blob data um posted on Celestia on was it December 17th it was called something like Astro sorry if I'm throwing a hard question at you right now but was just wondering a you yeah so that was astrogo which is which is correct it was uh I'm trying to share screen here but asog is none other than an inscriptions protocol so really no surprise why that was driving the numbers here but uh all right so I got this up cooked up a quick dashboard just to show uh blockworks research

subscribers what exactly is going on on Celestia so we like to use these Spotlight dashboards to capture recent Trends or or move Market moving narratives um and so right now this is what we're looking at so if we use uh we refresh this at the end of every day so we get the full uh picture of the latest data once a completed day has happened and you'll see these are the three name spaces I was talking about so just like a random string of numbers so it's a little hard to kind of say what exactly these things are uh but if you see at the top of this leaderboard we have yeah asog posted a [ __ ] ton of data on December 21st about 278 megabytes uh Which is far more than we've seen basically in total by anybody um so

inscriptions is the is the long answer there and then I mean here you can see that couple days we've had more than three name spaces but for the most part uh you're getting between three and six Nam spaces per day and on the Nam spaces front uh zerox Osprey on Twitter I was chatting with him and he had a really really interesting take on Nam spaces so the best way to describe these I think is like Celestia's blob space as like all of Reddit and within Reddit you know you can interact with different users by going to a subreddit so like uh reddit.com danels rdit right like then you can get to just my page and you can I can post data to just my page brick you can post data to just my page or I can like make a private page or only I

can post data too and that's a great way to think about namespaces is subred credits uh so for example here if I go on this leaderboard there's a a namespace called memes and only uh one blob has been posted to it and it's like this animation of the Rick Roll song um so you could see a protocol being built on Celestia namespaces that is like based around this subreddit idea where you can like all the data gets posted to Celestia of course it's more of a data Avail availability Source than a storage Source but like this website could definitely run an archival node in this case uh so it's really interesting to think about exactly just like this idea of like celestian namespaces being

subreddits I don't know you could see a cool protocol being built built on top of it for sure I think one thing that just came to my mind about Dimension is that obviously there's like a lot of rollup as a service providers that have spun up in the past year I think the most popular ones are probably conduit um out layer and now Dimension One thing I've always thought about is what is a competitive ADV advantage or the sustainable competitive advantage of these rooll up as a service and how do they establish like a mode over time you know because everyone can like put op stack in a check mark everyone can put like Celestia da everyone can support like arbit from orbit and every rooll up as a service providers going to provide that and it's hard to see the value of

crew for them whereas Dimension has come in here with like a slightly alternative model right they have like the dimension Hub the own da Network and sort of their own settlement layer and perhaps that's how they're thinking about Val curo for rollup as a service whereas for someone like conduit right if you're just helping people launch op stack rollups it's hard to see the value of cre for them right because if there's some like fancy like shirt sequencer some like shirt infa like chances are you can't share that much info you need like a RPC for each individual rooll app and sure you may make some margins there um but a sh sequencer like that's not going to be a you thing that's going to be like a espresso super chain thing right and so perhaps there's something

here to be Sav for Dimension and the dimension Hub where they're going to build their own amm on the L1 yeah and then like for I don't know I don't want to get too deep into the Weeds on this one but like the idea of sov rups comes to my mind here where you kind of don't need the settlement layer um so I think there's just so much iteration left in and experimentation left in the um in this roll app space we again we really haven't seen this world of a million chains and how that's going to play out so still a lot to come is kind of where my head's at with this one but if we move on to another News segment this week maker is back in uh it's back in the Talk of the Town really it's it's producing real revenues and people are

starting to wake up to it so brick can you walk us through the latest and greatest with maker now yeah for sure I mean I've been looking at the asset since probably beginning of September or something like that and have been feeling like I don't know um yelling into an empty void or whatever because like the market just doesn't seem to like catch onto this narrative but now suddenly like a few big names within the maker Community posted kind of few small Treads about the protocol and suddenly like the market just jumps on it and I think today the token is up around 15% or something like that um and kind of the main points that people are now

starting to realize is that like maker is a real Revenue generating machine so to say um so in the bare Market they've done or the protocol has done pretty well because of the large rwa Holdings or more specifically uh dirty Bill Holdings um and now when interest rates kind of are starting to revert but then uh crypto is coming back so more and more people are starting to take out d loans or like basically giving collateral back into maker and then uh minting die out which of course AC Cru a revenue to or a fee to a maker so then that part starts to grow while T bills

kind of might or t Revenue um might start decreasing so uh in an ideal scenario where uh the bull market and the interest rates are um moving like in negative directions or in different directions um the protocol can create pretty like stable and large revenues um and then of on top of that end game is of course so end game is basically makers like five phased um plan to change the protocol to its Final Phase which is expected to happen over like I don't know five years um and it has been kind of delayed because of I

guess a lot of stuff but mainly I think some governance frictions and some devs living and things like that anyway um so now people are also realizing that as part of end game or the uh newest changes into end game the maker um like native token will be you will be able to swap it uh at a rate of 1 to 24K if the newest proposal passes um which means that the token price pretty much just goes down or like the fdv stays the same and the market cap stays the same but um the price of the token just goes down and then now a narrative is starting to form that okay

new and cheap token um cheap in quotation marks because like the price doesn't really matter here um we like get a lot of more attention um and then also another narrative that I've kind of been seeing today on Twitter is that like being middle curve is the new narrative or that's the new meme like you don't want to go left curve you don't want to go right curve you want to be cool and do this middle curve rwa um Investments and actually yeah the protocol plays pretty nicely into that narrative and I guess a lot of research houses and funds have um predicted that uh this year will be the year of the or a large narrative this

year year will be rwa so plays into that as well and then of course as part of end game uh maker will create these subd Dows um and one of those being spark Dow um which is basically the Dow for the lending platform Spar protocol which is now kind of under maker um and Spark has been doing super or spark protocol has been doing super well recently so um the amount borrow has uh increased from like around 200 million uh at the beginning of October to now be being a bit over 5 billion so a 5x increase in a pretty short amount of time and um if you look

at governance proposals or what people are talking about in the forums it's quite clear that maker is trying to push more and more um spark into the uh Spotlight and get more users through that although um should be noted that the protocol doesn't really ACR that much revenue through the platform right now but maybe that will uh change in the future and it's been super cool to see that like someone else or kind of although make is an OG project but still like a new protocol is able to take market share away from Ava um on ethereum and then the last point being that um maker this year or last year

initiated um again or like reinitiated its value acral mechanism for the native token where instead of now burning um maker with fees or like profits the protocol instead acquires maker and then pairs that with die into a Unis swap pool uh so increasing protocol owned liquidity and with that uh should make trading easier or onchain trading of the Native token easier um and yeah those are basically the large narratives that people have finally started catching on and um we'll see how long this kind of first wave lasts and how much people um or how

much interest the token can accumulate now but yeah any thoughts from you guys it's absolutely hilarious that you bring up all these like fundamental you know Innovations and value propositions for instance the inverse correlation between uh the t- bill rates and the potential supply of die and you know the growth of spark protocol the growth of the protocol in liquidity or p and the only thing that hits me is unit bias they're going to trade one maker which is currently trading at you know four figures into 20 trade 20 divide it by 24,000 and all of a sudden it's going to be quote unquote cheap obviously to you know to anyone out there like it doesn't actually change the fdv or the value of

this of this protocol and it should have no implication but as we know unit bias is a real thing in crypto and that uh that makes me hella bullish mkr so that's really funny I really didn't think that unit bias was real I like it's just so stupid that I I was like all right that just I I had too much faith in the average person and then one of my sort of distant friends not like not a close friend by any means just random text out of the day out of nowhere he just text me like hey like what do you think about this Caspa protocol it's like okay here we go again another one of these like YouTube scam coins um so like talk him off the ledge and he's like I don't know man it just looks so cheap it's like a couple cents

or I I don't even remember what trading at but it was like he was like relative to I think he was talking about Solano was his other choice he was between and he mentioned it was cheap because of the price and the price was like a fraction of a Cent and I was like wow like the average people really do think like this that I just I don't get it I don't get I it's it's hard for me to wrap my mind around but that [ __ ] is real so unfortunately that matters which is a super interesting takeaway uh but brick you mentioned another thing I thought that was interesting about like being in the middle curve might be a good thing um and I kind of tend to agree with you I think during a bare Market you want to lean middle left in a lot of ways

because or sorry in a bull market uh but in a bare market like that's when you want to take your big like right curve contrarian bet that's like this token's deeply on sale uh and it will be the one to outperform but as the market starts to come back alive and attention starts to refocus around narratives and bounce from one one narrative to the other like that's when you kind of want to be just barely front running the masses and and then just like follow copy trading the masses because that's where the capital is Flowing so I kind of see that thesis making a lot of sense about staying in the middle curve uh kind of during one of the more hot Market periods yeah definitely and maybe another takeway from this all is that

like how large the impact of crypto Twitter still is like people started posting about this maybe three hours ago and then maybe an hour and a half ago the token starts pumping like everyone's so quick to hop on this narrative and it's usually like some combination of a few accounts that get um kind of noticed by the masses and then people start buying into these tokens and suddenly you have like a large narrative going on so I guess it's just not about like finding the right drivers and being like super diligent with what you're buying into and kind of being in the OR at the

middle of the curve but also being able to predict what's going to become popular or what other people will start looking at I think maker also benefits from sort of like being one of the only large cap rwa protocols or in terms of like the token and traction like if you think about all of the other rwa protocols either not a lot of them have a token have value acrw or protocol is that like a super small like sub or 50 million TBL and so if you're thinking of rwa like you're thinking like okay maker is probably the one I want to buy you're probably not going to go out there and

buy centrifuge gold fin you're probably not going to go buy um uh onchain like treasury issuer if they even have tokens and so makeer D is really like the only token that comes to mind for a lot of people this is in comparison to something like Ai and decentralized compute right if you're like thinking of like longing decentralized compute today you're like okay you look at our cash you look at like render you get like IET which is having a token come out in q1 and you're like all of these stats look kind of similar they all have like maybe like a few th000 or like 10,000 gpus I'm not really sure what it all but for rwa it's really just maker like the only large one or like significant player that comes to mind yeah that's a

good take and also spark protocol has just absolutely crushed and and brick you hit on this I just want to double double down on that because I think they launched let's call it six months ago and they already have over 850 million in borrows outstanding and it's really really huge to see that and and you kind of pointed out that it has kind of been this this quick Riser up the The Lending leading board already in you know the third or fourth position behind like a and compound the two giants that have been around a full D5 cycle um whereas again this protocol is 6 months old and has already been able to to just absolutely crush it I think a lot of that I don't I don't know the numbers but I'm I'm curious like what still resides in some of those more OG

like Oasis faults because my assumption is a lot of that just migrated like from Oasis into uh spark but nonetheless I think that really highlights the success that they're having highlights how maker kind of Diversified itself into being Bull and bare Market resistant and what I mean by that is in a bar Market rwa is Crush you know that's t- bills in in a bare Market that's where you want to go flight to safety um and for maker that means Revenue throughout a bear and then theyve got a great lending protocol um built around the a V3 Tech in Forked from that uh and being iterated on by Sam mcferson and the team to still create these crypto back loans that

people want In the Heat of a bull market so they kind of have both ends of the spectrum and yeah super I mean it's just really a complete D5 protocol uh that is starting to look more and more like like a real company that that has a good future ahead of it it's it's interesting to see that from a def5 protocol not something we're totally used to I loved Ren's Point too about like die and maker versus or spark protocol die and maker versus you know onchain real world asset protocols because it's something that I haven't understood so much you know there's a lot of people calling for these onchain rwa protocols to have like The Narrative of the year in 2024 as institutional investors want to hold treasuries on chain and I just don't really see it I see a lot of you know a

lot of appetite for stable coin creation I see a lot of appetite for maker and die but I don't see institutions paying a 25 basis point fee to hold over World assets on Chain versus in you know brokerage firm so like that narrative you know hasn't clicked for me I could be wrong but for me it's just like if I wanted real world AET exposure I'd be getting it here as well and touching like a little further on this uh point you were brought up earlier Dan which is like in a bull market you kind of want to maybe use you want to tend away from the right mid curve a little bit and a little bit further towards left it's something that I call like IQ off risk on it's like this is ridiculous and I I hate that I'm even saying this but

something I've learned over being in crypto for a very long time which is even though you can say in a very intellectual sophisticated and completely true manner that things like the number of daily active users on a high throughput lowcost blockchain the total volume on a on an asset that you can trade with zero fees the order book depth in an industry which has no regulatory jurisdiction that says you can't be you know spoofing the order book like these things or how about GitHub commits like things like GitHub commits where you say there's tons of different developers committing to GitHub when you know it could just be like a bot Farm that's spinning up new githubsign making commit that changes the space in the documentation or something it's like for the longest time I just thought these things were completely irrelevant and baseless and

shouldn't have any effect on value and like they shouldn't but they do and it's like you know at the end of the day sometimes it makes sense to uh if if for a trade not for an investment but sometimes it makes sense to like turn off the the IQ a little bit and just go with the flow and uh and and focus on that left curve mindset so you're telling me I should long scroll because they have 1.1 million developers on blockchain thank you they have more developers than users in this industry it's quite impressive that chart on blockworks Research is crazy it shows the number of unique address addresses that have deployed a contract on each L2 and scroll is just like you know I don't know the exact number like 10 times or 20 times higher than every other L2 and one predict that it's likely people

that think they'll get an aird drop for that uh oh it's ZK sync it's not even scroll sorry about that it's ZK sync but it's hilarious you know at the end of the day it's a same [ __ ] funny industry it's kind of sad that your previous statement is true though Matt like you have to turn off your brain to uh follow the trends which is very telling about who's pushing the trends but nonetheless you uh you mentioned some [ __ ] metrics I think that's a good segue into our hot seat cool Throne so I'm actually putting active addresses in in the hot seat this week because uh brick asked asked me a question earlier today and he said you know why does polygon have about 80,000 uh new active addresses a day and new active addresses as defined by the first

time an address is using the blockchain is occurring within this period so he's looking at a daily time frame um so there's about 880,000 addresses that were had in their first transaction ever was it was again in this specific day and so just recap about 880,000 new addresses per day on polygon right now and so I was like okay given that there's not a lot of activity on polygon that's a bit surprising and so first reaction I was like all right let me go double check the code like that you know bugs are possible so went went through and did that of course it looked good and so I started poking through some of the addresses that had their first transaction in today like today of course the literally the first one I pull uh is I flip through the transactions and it's literally 2000

madx tokens being sent from at one address to a new address to a new address to a new address to a new address to a new address to a new address to like it's just this chain of of just spamming new addresses uh so I don't know who spun this up I don't know what its intention is but at the end of the day it is pushing new addresses into the the uh into the active address count um and so again going back to zero xust I he's the theme of this episode it appears uh you know he's very vocal on Twitter about active addresses being a [ __ ] metric and he was kind of the first person to put me onto this and I very much so moved to this corner and I think Mer's pretty loud about this on

salana too which is good to see because cheaper blockchains are easier to spoof the active addresses if you wanted to send one transfer from uh about 480,000 active addresses which is the total addresses so active or new and existing addresses on polygon today is about 480,000 that would cost 6 50 bucks just to send one transfer from 480,000 wallets right you obviously space them out through the day avoid stay contention yada that's uh pretty telling that you know what can be spoofed in this industry will be and so you need to you can't just look at uh transaction count that got shot up like a completely ruined a lot of charts to be quite honest for arbitrum Avalanche even

salana got they all got hit pretty hard by inscriptions uh and so like you can't just be like oh look how great my blockchain is today because I have this huge spike in in transaction count or oh wow look at this we have 80,000 new active addresses today it's like we have 80,000 new users coming online like a lot of the time I see people talk about active addresses and then use the word user uh and to me when you say user you're reflecting like a human behind the address and that's slow like I really like to stay away from saying active addresses equal users um because like if you think about like a web 2 comparison like a social media site probably doesn't say that their active addresses or their total users are like their number of

email addresses and that's kind of more akin to an uh crypto address you know you you really want to try to somehow do something like if you say user to me when you're talking about addresses that means you've done some sort of manipulation to that number to remove like Bots and I don't think that ever really happens so I think Michael silbert from the office team has done some cool work on trying to uh pull out Bots bot addresses um but I don't know I think that's something we need to work towards as an industry is is staying away from like highlighting one metric that's easily manipul manipulatable uh and saying oh wow look at this like we have the best blockchain in the world because of this one stat on this one day like we need to see Trends through time of a series of metrics that are

preferably hard to manipulate that's so I'm putting shitty metrics in the hot seat this week yeah I gotta say there's a lot of them especially in an unregulated industry it's like you don't even I wouldn't even assume that it's the team you know like I wouldn't go assume that that whatever good call I'm not I'm not accusing anybody here that it's just like this [ __ ] happens like this could be some dedicated Super Fan who's like polygon is my [ __ ] bag and I'm gonna make it look like people use this chain like it it could be literally anybody and there could be some weird purpose to this too that I don't know I don't want to insinuate anything here again I looked at this for 10 minutes with brick earlier uh but it it's just proof that the stat itself is manipulatable it's tough man it's tough

to find non-manipulable metrics like even around price data like volume and depth like I mentioned earlier you know it's that's easily spoofed even market makers in crypto and this is something that's like not really talked about and maybe should continue to not really be talked about but it's like you can buy an asset when the when you know it's one you buy an asset when the price impact is one standard deviation below average and you sell it when it's one Higher and you know the team funds you with a bunch of tokens and dollars to start off this market quote unquote Market making Endeavor it's like uh I don't know our industry has a lot lot of interesting things of that nature where uh you just definitely got to be careful and aware and if if not you uh you should probably stay out of investing in things outside of you

know the top two crypto tokens yeah that you bring up Dex trading it's a great one two things come to mind one is Kanto if you remember the peak of the Kanto craze they have uh zero fee deck swaps because the deck was like core to the protocol itself if I remember correctly uh and so because of this like the total Dex volume on Kanto is like flipping major chains and they're you know obviously getting touted on Twitter for being the second coming of Jesus chain and the reality was like it was just free swap so you saw a [ __ ] ton of wash trading uh the second one that comes to mind is I believe it was dodo uh but dodo had like a single pool that was either like zero swap fee or 0 one% or some very very small fee and so this one

pool was doing insane volume and then the rest of their protocol was like relatively quiet um but because this one pool was doing so much volume and it was likely mostly wash volume uh you know the dodo is like always in the top tier the top say five or 10 uh Dex is when you're like filtering on say def llama or some other Tool uh and so it's like what can be manipulated will be and you really need to factor that into your decision-making process when you're judging the quality of an asset or a protocol maybe that's a good jumping point for another hot seat or cool Throne R I'll toss things over to you yeah uh I got two k Thrones this week actually the first is Bonk bot so obviously as a starting point I do think

telegram uh telegram trading Bots do really well uh this cycle I mean like everything all of the degenerates you saw last cycle and you just make that ux UI ux like 10 times easier that's basically what telegram trading Bots are and I think the game has gotten a lot a lot more sophisticated especially in terms of the speed Advantage you need to have and telegram trading Bots are like the perfect solution to that sure there are definitely some like security concerns around them having a private keys that we've seen some exploits but I want to talk about Bon bot for a second so Bon bot is a telegram trading bot on salana with the Bon brand but if I'm not wrong it has a separate development team

um they have a lifetime volume of 770 million and nearly 100K cumulative users it's done some really really impressive numbers probably partially on the back of Bonk which was this 12 days sort of like air job thing that Bon was running um where you basically got to try out a lot of different integration that use Bon or Bon's own products they had an average volume per user of 8,200 and they've generated 9 million in lifetime fees um I really shouldn't be doing this but their highest daily fee was 678 th000 and if you annualize that that's 280 million I know some people are going to come after me for that I know have

some decency oh but I don't know I I always have like a fun time extrapolating and annualizing things I did the same thing for like jito's validator tips if you annualize like the highest day of like validator tips on jeto is like some crazy number and it could potentially support like whatever valuation jeto is at right now um but 280 million I think whatever like activity you saw right now right in terms of like 768 th000 in one day it's very possible to see that level of activity every day in a boom Market if you knew how things crazy were last cycle right so that's kind of why I don't think it's the worst

thing to analyze these numbers sometimes sure they won't last forever but they'll last for a a certain period of time and perhaps will be even higher um but it's a 1% fee on all of the trades 100% of the fees are used to uh buy back um there like it goes a different places 10% of is burn and 10% of it goes to the Dow 30% of it goes to like this development teams um but yeah it's it's a seriously impressive amount of volume right if you told me that bong bot had surpassed unibot in lifetime volume I would not have guessed that to be honest but it has Union Bots around 500 million Bon Bots at 700 million and number two banana guns at 900 million so you know

give it a few more weeks and it will probably become number two in cumulative um transaction volume and I think there's a few things to take note of here the first is obviously salana user activity is on a ter D gen activity on that chain has picked up very very significantly the second thing is I think these telegram trading bot Wars are going to heat up significantly like it's been relatively okay so far and the competition has been mostly limited to like individual chains but unibot for example just announced that they're going to move to salana uh one week ago and they've just launched their salana bot and unibot has also launched a trading terminal I want to say a few

months ago called unibot X which I just checked it out looks relatively professional and I think cumulatively these Protocols are probably going to make a ridiculous amount of money next cycle I I wouldn't be surprised if they make like one billion in total yeah the stats on Bon bot are honestly pretty crazy um you know you shouted out a lot of great ones but and you also mentioned bonm Miss I think this started around the 20 or excuse me December 15th or 16th and you really see this kind of being a key point in the The Rise and recent adoption of Bon bot but you know they're seem to be leveling off somewhere in the neighborhood of about

24ish 25,000 users per day which is a pretty meaningful number and yes this was an incentive program so you don't want to just like stare directly at these incentivized values and use these for your future assumptions but if let's say that this you know this 24 25,000 active user daily active user number is where Bon bot levels off around I would call that a damn exess successful uh incentivization program you know you run a 10 10 15 I think it was what 10 days 10 day incentive uh incentive program and all of a sudden you have 20,000 active users that's that's the success and looking at the stats is crazy I mean they were doing some pretty meaning fee Revenue right this is they were

averaging somewhere between like 500 and 200 and and 700,000 um in fee Revenue per day which of course 10% of that is burned and returned to Bon holders it's pretty interesting because this thing obviously got advertised as a mcoin but again it's like it's really looking more and more like a traditional protocol token and there's a team behind the token developing it and pushing it forward and if you look at its performance relative to other Bots I think there's a really interesting takeaway where you know yes bonm Miss ended and usage dropped off a bit um but that also kind of perfect bonm Miss kind of like perfectly overlapped this peak moment of [ __ ] coining on salana and the two are probably related right if more

people are using a telegram trading bot then there's more incentive to go [ __ ] going on salana um but if you look at the stats it's like insane market dominance just straight out of the gates so this huge pink piece here for the viewers rather than the listeners uh is the number of users per telegram bot uh and if you look at their user dominance they you know came online in mid November at about 5% and currently they've got about 68% of the total trading bot user dominance which is Absolut Madness and if you go strictly on volume it's not like their users are all trading you know one $ one dollar they're all they're still in about 60 to 70% of total volume dominance for uh telegram trading Bots as well so these

are great dashboards by whale Hunter definitely go check these out on Dune I think that the trading bot volume donet is going to be my indicator for frothy points in crypto um I think we have this weird thing in this industry where we try to find or we call everything a top signal um and what you what top signals you've seen in the past you tend to hold on to and carry forward with you so things like you know institutions buying crypto or famous people talking about crypto like oh top signal top signal and there's a million different examples of of this so I'm curious if you guys have any good ones U but for me I think you need to adapt these to the current market conditions uh and tele telegram

trading Bots didn't exist until a few months ago so for me this is definitely a top signal or a local top signal is when you know when volume jumps from 40 million to 80 million yeah it might be things might be getting froy and it might be time to cool off I'm really intrigued to to see how this new metric kind of plays out over the next couple months I think if I had to choose like a top signal related to telegram trading BS it would probably be like volume comparisons between like centralized exchanges and telegram trading BS like if we ever reach a point where telegram trading Bots was 50% of like sex spot trading volume that's probably a sign of

like you should probably sell if we guess it like 100% then 100% like just sell everything at that point right if it ever overtakes oh my God yeah hopefully everyone's Rich by that point um I do kind of agree with like the to Signal Point especially I think last cycle was slightly different in that it was like the first cycle that retail got exposed to the masses I'm sure we see like a lot of the same things play out but also this cycle you know there's like the whole like quote unquote institutional thing with the Bitcoin ETF um uh and I think there's just like too many top signals to to keep track of I don't think it's very prudent to like try to like have a checklist of like 10 top

signals and then like if like seven of them like ever hit like then sell everything that's that's too complicated for me my top signal is when a blockworks research analyst sends a Zillow for more than five million and I'm selling everything I'm also very fortunate to have the best bottom signal of all time when we're about to start a bull run which is my parents telling me that I should switch careers and at that point I just you know net worth into crypto it's time to go heavy you know you go to family dinner and people are like ah so you're buying the you're buying the beers right and yeah then you sell another thing that comes to mind from this conversation is just that or I get the feeling that or you can say that we're still so early because the best value acrel models or

the best kind of business models right now in crypto are super like kind of dgen related and trading related like there's still not a lot of I don't know how to put it um things to do for kind of retail users or your maybe your mom and dad won't come on chain because like they're able to use trading bot but once there's like a real use case then maybe these business models flip as well and like there's another vertical in which like investors start looking at for value it's like one good question I guess is and man I feel so bad I probably sound like the biggest pessimist crypto hater

like I love our industry I think you know I think we're gonna truly I think it's truly technology that changes the world but are fundamentals good at this point in time for crypto like if Bonk loses its meme ability slash it's you know its so no value this is just some 69420 crap blah blah blah blah blah like let's go make fun of it on the internet and attempts to create fundamental value through through you know buying and burning bong from fees that the trading bot sees you could make a case that that's actually bearish for the token versus you know the no fundamental value acrel um and that's sad to say but I definitely think that you know I I could at least argue it whether or not I believe it hey Doge operates a whole ass chain that's that's

the one thing to keep in your back pocket but unfortunately I do agree with the direction you're heading Ren I know you said you had another hot seat cool thron so far away yeah um obviously we have a big day potentially coming in I want to say eight days I know the approval window that got put out there last month was like January 5th to January 10th and if you haven't figured out at this point I'm talking about the spot Bitcoin ETF um we've seen a huge amount of activity in the past few weeks from all of the issuers and it seems like everyone's getting a race or getting the race on so to say um you're starting to see some like 30 second ads come out for example bid wise put out an ad and I wouldn't be

too surprised to see that basically 10x right in the next few months just to run some numbers here gold ETFs have around 120 billion in AUM with an expense ratio of for example 60 bips that's almost 700 million in fees per year if you annualize that out extrapolate do a DCF whatever that's probably a shitload of money over the next 10 to 20 years especially if Bitcoin 3x's 5x's whatever it does right um and I think one thing about ETFs is like if you choose like a S&P Index Fund right chances are you don't change who you buy you buy them for either a they have like the lowest expense ratio or B like they track um the underlying the best and so over time

that customer value increases I don't want to say exponentially but it definitely increases right either as the price of Bitcoin goes up or you become richer and you keep on putting like 5% of your paycheck into Bitcoin right hopefully you make more money over your career every year if not you probably be doing something wrong um but basically there's a lot of money at stake for a lot of these people so these issues are probably going to really ramp up the marketing and AD spend over the coming months because every I don't know $1 million dollar you spent today could be 100 million in fee Revenue um over the coming decades right um and so fees have been a big point of all of these spot Bitcoin ETFs I think the lowest one has

come in at 0.39% or 39 bips by wise origin and there's been a few sort of like uh promotional tactics so to say for example galaxies their fee is normally 59 bips but for the first six months and the first five billion in assets they are going feess so zero fees which I think is like pretty damn rare for any ETF like even uh vanguards like vo their S&P like Index Fund ETF is three bips expense ratio um and you know another thing that people should be watching for is how much these issues are seeding their ETFs with I think

bitwise has come in at 200 million which is by far the highest out of all of the spot ETF issuers the next highest one I think is I want to say 10 million looking at this uh table from James saart our ETF God uh and that's from I shares um but basically tldr it's hard to say who's going to win today whoever wins there's probably some quote unquote like Network effects um and they'll probably stand to make a lot of money over the next 10 20 30 years I'm just going to go ahead and give my Quil thr because it's you know very similar and on the same subject

which is Jane Street who is the market M announced AP authorized participant on three of the ETFs already likely to be added on a few of the ones that currently have Nas listed as their APS for those that don't know the authorized participant is the one who has the ability to create and redeem shares meaning that if the price of Bitcoin trades above the price of the ETF they have the ability to actually uh you know buy the ETF redeem the Bitcoin go sell the Bitcoin and if the price of Bitcoin trades below the price of the ETF they can go uh you know buy Bitcoin and create shares so create redeem um and Jane will likely be printing money when these ETFs launch I'm imagining that the ETFs that they are the AP on will likely

have lower spreads than the other ones though obviously there's no guarantee of that um and because of that you know at the end of the day I think those ETFs will actually have a leg up as well so just another factor in which ETF kind of or which ETFs might gain a lot of uh lot of a lot of tvl and it's probably going to be ones with h low spreads as well well done well done uh yeah it's definitely interesting for me I think the huge Talk of the Town has been is this going to be a sell the news event and I think crypto natives are heavily favoring yes which I think is [ __ ] hilarious I I I mean if we so for me this all comes down to the what what the chart looks like ends up

coming down to the time frame between approval and launch so my understanding is the SEC will come out and say assuming this is approved you know we could get a a right hook from Gary gendler and friends here and just deny but let's assume it's approved my understanding is the announcement will look something along the lines of you know X Y and Z ETFs uh have been approved for trading on you know this day and that day will be likely the Bloomberg fellas are are honestly where I get 99.99% of my ETF uh updates from and I think that's a great great source and would recommend commend you do the same but they were saying it'll likely be

measured in days not weeks so for example it'll be trading you know just a few days after the announcement as opposed to weeks um after announcement and so because of that I think that it'd be hilarious to see crypto native sell off because as we've been mentioning all episode all anyone's doing right now is chasing from narrative a to narrative B and so down the line uh and once the Bitcoin ETF launches every crypto native is going to assume the ETF or the eth ETF is next in line uh and so I wouldn't be so shocked to see them all Ro rotate to eth and then the inflows start and if the inflows are what you know we would hope to see you're getting meaningful capital capital rotating for a long-term position into the industry and I I just

think you're crazy to bet against that um so yeah I don't know it'll be for me it's it's the whether or not it's a sell the news event will be strictly based on the time between uh announcement of approval and actually launched for trading so the bear the Bears aren't the Bears aren't un like they're not they are based in evidence like I saw a couple charts you know the gold ETF and a few other ETFs where up until announcement of approval they you know rip and then announcement of approval a nice decline followed by you know when trading starts they they resume to their price at at uh you know at approval on then some but I tend to agree with you also like I think crypto's different I think bitcoin's different I do think we

see a lot of people sell the news but I don't think it has a material impact on price obviously not Financial advice I have no idea um and I think that I would not be surprised if we if we only saw up only after the ETF especially because it's the you know it's not the popular thought the popular thought is that it will be a sell the news event I don't know if you saw but Westy and I placed a little bet today I got the we didn't over under I said four business days or less after the ETF approval uh headline Prince until ETF trading starts and he took the over I took the under on that so I don't know if that's relevant information to anyone so wait do you uh do you hit if it's four days or so it's like four and a half days basically so

the four business days after so if it on on a Friday if it prints on a Friday then any day up until and including Thursday okay so including all right so there you go uh I think I I have literally no idea I'm completely guessing so I'm gonna I'm gonna take your side because I want you to be right yeah yeah I just wanted to add that I mean like this is probably the largest most positive regory event this industry is going to see in 10 years I mean like seriously just like long close your eyes wake up in one year and like you just make it like it's that simple there's no need to like think like oh is it going to be a s news event blah blah blah like don't water man and also I think another interesting

thing to watch would be gold ETF AUM I don't know whether this will make any sense at all but it'll be interesting if you see like an outflow out of gold ETFs while Bitcoin like ETFs increase in the a obviously like either way the AUM of spot Bitcoin ETFs is going to increase but it'll be very interesting if we see like a decrease or a significant decrease in like the AUM of gold ETFs interesting take actually I I would guess not over the like you defin I don't I'd be shocked if you saw some sudden moves uh but if you come back in two years and plot those like the a charts of all gold ETFs and all crypto ETFs um or even just like normalize it

for units or something that would be very very interesting to see if there were inflows and outflows but maybe that's a good place to leave it for this week we we jammed on a lot there that was a really fun episode so guys thanks for hopping on and to the listeners we will see you all next week hey everyone thanks so much for tuning in today's episode we hope you really enjoyed it wanted to take one more moment to remind you guys about our upcoming 2024 digital asset Summit in London this March seats are limited so be sure to hit the link in the description and use promo code 0x20 to save 20% off on your ticket we'll see you in London be sure to hit us up if you plan on [Music] attending