How DAOs Will Change Everything | Kain Warwick, CoopahTroopah, Tracheopteryx

Transcript

hey bankless nation this is panel time on bank list we the panel is an opportunity to deep dive into a topic with a number of guests who are experts in the space and today we are talking about dowels this is how to dao and we've got a fantastic group of panelists for you where we're going to have this conversation david why don't you give us a preview yeah there's a number of conversations to have about daos about like are they really all that fundamentally different what rules about organizations have changed now that we are in the dao world and also what rules are actually exactly the same what does it mean to have a good dow and do all dows follow the same rules about what it means to have a good dow what are all

the same problems that dao are faced with and what problems do only some dows have there's a lot of things to unpack here because collectively as an industry we are all learning how to dao and so we've brought on some of the best leaders who have some of the the most experience with dowing to get their perspectives as to how to doubt yeah absolutely so we've got kane warwick cooper turley and trach from the y iron protocol we're going to be talking to all of them and we really think that dows are um the new opportunity to front run in crypto there's a massive amount of opportunity this is really how crypto is coordinating human capital as well as as uh you know asset capital dows will replace companies one day we firmly

believe this do you remember our josh rosenthal episode where he talked about the crypto medici uh well we are the new crypto medici and uh joining a dow is one way to dive deeper down this this rabbit hole you will not regret it speaking of which doubt opportunities um our friends at tracer dao have just launched a dao they're working on a d5 perpetuals product pretty exciting stuff they're looking right now for governors and contributors so if you're interested in that join their discord get involved we'll include a link in the show notes guys we will be right back with our panelists but before we do we want to thank the sponsors that made this episode possible living a bankless life requires taking control of your own

private keys not your keys not your crypto that's why so many in the bankless nation already have their ledger hardware wallets which makes proper private key management a breeze but the ledger ecosystem is more than just a secure hardware wallet ledger is the combination of the ledger hardware wallet and the ledger live app and if you're used to seeing all of your crypto services and favorite d apps all in one place ledger is where you want to be not only does ledger let you buy crypto assets straight from the app but it also hooks into decentralized exchange aggregators like paraswap which makes sure that you are getting the best prices on your trades without your assets ever leaving your control d5 never stops growing and the ledger live app grows alongside with it so click the link in the show notes to see all the

defy apps that ledger live has and stay tuned as more and more apps come online and if you don't have a ledger hardware wallet what are you even waiting for go to ledger.com grab your ledger download ledger live and get all of your d-apps all in one place bankless is proud to be supported by uniswap uniswap is a new paradigm in asset exchange infrastructure instead of a cumbersome order book system where trades are matched with other humans uniswap is an autonomous piece of software on ethereum which is what ryan and i call a money robot no human counterparties or centralized intermediaries just autonomous code on ethereum input the token you want to sell and receive the token you want to buy

something brand new in the uniswop ecosystem is the uniswap grants program is now accepting applications for grants we have been saying this for a while and we'll say it again dows have money and they are in need of labor if you think that you have something to contribute to the una swap dow apply for a grant to uniswap just look at the size of the uniswap treasury it's almost 3 billion this mountain of capital is looking for labor do you have something of value to contribute to the uni swap dow no matter how big or small your idea is you can apply for a uni grant at unigrants.org and help steer uniswap in the direction that you think it should go that's exactly what we did to get uniswop to be a sponsor for bankless and you can do

the same for your project thank you uniswap for sponsoring bankless alright guys we are back this is the how to dow panel really excited to introduce our three guests to you the first is kane warwick he's the founder and benevolent pre-frontal cortex of synthetics back on synthetics these days kane how you doing really well yeah um it's been uh it's been a good couple weeks just got back from our uh western hemisphere off-site where i met uh about 15 other contributors for the first time so that was really cool hey hey people in a doubt actually meet in person good to know uh cooper turley he leads crypto strategy at audios uh governance at

friends with benefits another dow also an advisor to the variant fund they are big into dalles and the creator economy as well and he's a general dow operator i i feel like he's in every doll i've ever seen or been a part of including uh pleaser c club forefront fingerprints probably some other dolls we don't yet know about coming in the future cooper how are you doing doing wonderful i'm excited to dive into it i think this is a hot topic and you've got some of the best on the call today so thank you for having me i think it's the hottest topic and the reason i say that is because like we're front-running everybody else right now it's kind of i think you said this last time we were on together cooper's like where nfts were at this time last year uh lastly we have trach he is a

contributor at wiring lex punk and coordinate really cool infrastructure for decentralized compensation servicing dallas too drake how you doing doing great man and i'm yeah also psyched to be here and talking about this amazing stuff with you guys man we are psyched to have you on psyched to being crypto at this time so we're gonna dive right into some dow topics you guys ready let's do this yes all right you know i'm gonna start with this uh play the devil's advocate because like you know why not let's let's start with the skepticism first so the skeptic says even the skeptic in me quite honestly are dow's really that fundamentally different from say a traditional llc maybe it's just like a an llc or a

corporation without a nation-state registration but isn't it fundamentally sort of the same same thing and if so why are daos even special law why are we having this panel why are we excited about dallas if that's all they are why don't we start with you kane what's your take so yes and no right like yes uh you know corporate governance is a coordination mechanism it's just a really shitty one compared to dao's and so you know when you look at what a dow enables you have the ability to kind of transcend any one regulatory jurisdiction or like any legal structure you don't need to be domiciled in a particular place um but

the the dow itself is kind of the arbiter of uh of the rules as opposed to you know needing to kind of uh resort to some external uh court of law or legal jurisdiction and that's a really powerful uh mechanism that you know uh dow's enable is this kind of self-contained coordination mechanism that um is you know autonomous right uh it's it's outside of uh you know any any particular uh any particular place and i think that's powerful and i think that's why we're seeing people from all over the world come together to form these dowels uh in a way that you couldn't probably do uh certainly easily with corporate governments

okay so kane making the point that dao's are super national they're outside of any single nation state jurisdiction cooper what do you think about that is this still the same like corporate governance just in a super national structure is there something more here i think that it's a lot more fluid you know the biggest thing i'd call out is there's no team and user dynamic you know team and community are one in the same what that does it allows for people to come in in a much more free-flowing manner so with the dow you don't need to worry about going through an hr process to be hired to a multi-year contract with the vesting schedule you can jump in and start contributing today i think that ethos to allow people to come in and contribute as they see fit it opens the design space for a lot more

collaboration and also allows there to be a lot more ownership in that project and so beyond the legal structure i would say the precedent behind working for adele has a lot more ownership involved with it and as a result you see people coming in and doing things in a much more fluid manner that we haven't really seen outside of like a cooperative or a freelance model which i'd say is fundamentally different from the ways that dials work today so trey gets this idea that we've got this super super national entity exists outside of the nation state it's also permission permissionless anyone can join anyone contribute everyone has sort of a vested interest in what goes on uh what would you add to this uh this question then drake yeah i would say it's part of a developmental process in the collective consciousness you know you can look back

they're if they're not fundamentally different than former forms of human organization but they are fundamentally better and they're kind of breathtakingly better in so many ways just as like the capabilities of a tribe or a religion or a nation or an incorporation now you have a dow and each one of these different shapes of organization emerges from different financial legal theories different theories of personhood and on top of blockchain you know beyond nations out in cyberspace where anybody can be whoever they want and they're permissionless and open dows are just kind of radically different and better one thing that's striking to me trick as i'm looking at your like avatar right like i see uh you know i don't see a

person here right and so this is the idea that you're getting at of kind of pseudo-anonymous contribution as well you could never contribute to a company in this way there are probably few organizations we could contribute in this way but like a dao is is is much more meritocratic you don't you don't have to have a nation state id in order to contribute and here you are uh contributing as uh uh wha what would you call your insignia here drake well here i am a kind of shaman dinosaur which is actually pretty close to what i am so one question that always arises with me and doubts is in the name dao is the word decentralized but there's

it hasn't really changed any sort of role with regards to leadership or has there and so my first question my question on this is maybe to you kane as the the founder of synthetics and which has then morphed into synthetics dao how is leadership endows the same as previous organizational schemes or how is it totally different uh you're muted as well thanks yeah it's it's a topical uh issue for synthetics i think so it it's a it's honestly a hard question to answer um i think that uh there is always a necessity um when you

have a group of people uh for you know some level of kind of responsibility right diffusion of responsibility is very dangerous um when coordinating people uh and i think that that's one thing that we haven't maybe solved yet um like right now we're we're you know really powered by enthusiasm right um you know people like cooper who are in 85 dalles and you know just working 24 7 and and you know just super excited about the space um there does come a time and i think synthetics you know being four years old or you know whatever it is uh where people need uh to be you know put into some kind of leadership role um when it

comes to organizing other people right who are going to be doing something but the critical thing i think and the critical difference in a dow versus even you know the old synthetics open source uh software foundation model is in the foundation there was a person who was the ultimate uh you know controller of that organization right in the synthetic style there is no uh person who sits at the top of the hierarchy right there's a council which is a you know representation of the will of the token holders but the token holders are you know tens of thousands of people spread all around the world and so uh you have this idea of there isn't one person who controls the outcomes or

decisions or whatever of this organization but there may need to be people who help coordinate the individual humans doing some specific activity they can't choose what to do but they can help coordinate uh what has been chosen by the community cooper as kane said you're a part of roughly 85 dows so how has leadership changed or how how have different dows chosen different leadership models and what have you seen that has worked out in some of the dows that you're a part of it's a great question i'd like to clarify it's actually 87.00 as we as we started this podcast yeah i mean i think that framing was really

accurate from kane you know i think that um in the early stages of a dow obviously someone's going to play a pretty key role in getting it off the ground i think that's necessary for it to get started but what you start to see is that after that first operator is hired to sort of run the day-to-day you know those responsibilities start to get positioned outwards and i think the more that people are taking key roles in daos that are not that specific leader that's when the conversation around the centralization starts to happen more meaningfully you know to me when i heard that word i think about what does it mean to have a voice in this project you know are my criticisms thoughts and feedback actually being heard or are they being deflected you know this is not a support desk reopen is that like a

ticket on zendesk and then have someone respond to you two weeks later you know there's a discord channel where you can talk to the leader in real time and really voice your opinion and with token-based governance you have a way to show that in a way that actually is meaningful and impactful you know and i think that in the world before this there was never really a structure to voice those opinions very meaningfully and so to answer your question about how they evolved over time i think we're still figuring out what a doubt looks like at full decentralization scale what we are seeing now is that leaders are becoming more comfortable empowering contributors to actually take on meaningful stakes in these projects and over time i think that's a really powerful precedent that i don't have to be best friends with kane to work for

his protocol if i show up and i do meaningful work for a community the people around me are going to see that and i'm able to own a significant stake in this network trek you've been on the front lines with coordination inside of yearn and also started building out your own tooling to solve your own problems with regards to coordination in urine how have you seen leadership inside of urine grow and develop and what thoughts do you have on the leadership question with regards to dao's yeah it's it's a really important question and i really resonate with what both kane and cooper said um one important thing a lot of people think that you know in evolved corporations or organizations freudian slip there evolved organizations that there should be no hierarchy um and but that's really kind of um just kind of

logically false i mean the sun's bigger than the earth you know like there is higher keys in the world like somebody knows more about something than me that's important what the problem is around rigid hierarchies you know which is kind of by default what happens in a legal corporation you have to have these kind of rigid structures endows what's really important and different is you don't have to have it but it doesn't mean that you don't need leadership you still need leadership and we really also need to develop new processes new tooling that can support natural and fluid leadership like we say at urine and coordinate the leader is the one who knows what to do next you know you really want to be able to support that type of leadership that's super cool the leader is the one

who knows what to do next very cool um let's talk about this so i i feel like dows are in the early stages maybe but they're starting to to enter sort of the the crypto zeke guys the crypto uh hype cycle if you will and i feel like some people think um oh yeah all it takes we'll we'll take this idea that we have or this model we have and we'll sprinkle a little dao on it it'll just grow and like it'll be successful and it'll flourish and it'll be worth millions and everyone will be excited about it but we've seen through history i mean right now is not the first generation of dowels we've seen many generations of dowels and those of you who've you know been in the space for a while remember like cycles of of previous

failures so i want to ask this question because we've all been a part of dials of the failed we've been part of some that are successful what is the difference what's the differentiator between a successful dow and an unsuccessful dow trek why don't we uh you weigh in on that question yeah so actually i'm gonna coin a term here the three p's we just came up with this today uh purpose principles and process and um it's a nice way to talk about things that we're doing at yearn now and have been thinking a lot about um you have to know why you're doing something and and then you have to know who you are who you're trying to be you know in the organization what your principles are and then how you're doing it and if you're doing those three

things in a dao um it's really important i know some people will kind of don't like the idea of stating principles because it reminds them too much of like google's [ __ ] principles or whatever right you don't have to do it in a boomer way we all have principles right um and actually most of the dows that i'm in or that i know they actually have really strong vision and principles just often it's not stated it's almost like if you state it you're going to become an old dude like it's kind of how you hold it that's the important it changes it's alive it reflects the system but it helps you remember you know what you're doing so yeah purpose principles and process can i ask about the last one really quick drake and a follow-up because i i feel like there are some dows out there

that have maybe the the first two sort of down they get the principles and they got the purpose but they fall down on on the process and we do need to reinvent processes for this new organizational construct do you have any insight into successful dows from a process perspective what do they do differently yeah it's super important like um but also important you don't want to over define processes you know you don't want to like rigidly structure everything but you need process how do you make decisions in a dow you know of course there's coin voting but there's so many other types of decisions that people need to make um you know how do you you know elect members to the synthetics council you know how do you um

how do you handle uh somebody you know being an [ __ ] to somebody else like there's a lot of types of processes that taos need and it doesn't mean that they have to be the old bad style of business process by the way but you still do need process yeah and i wonder how much of these things we can borrow from the old world from different organizational uh structures uh for instance cooper i want to turn the same question to you uh i know you've been a part of 87 dallas and um like so successful ones versus unsuccessful ones what's what are the big differentiators in in your mind i would say broadly oversimplifying did it go to zero um it's a yes or no binary question i would say if people are showing up on a recurring basis to meet and discuss the purpose of the dow it's

considered successful in my opinion i think the biggest unlock that we've seen from the first chapter of dao's is that we now have liquid tokens representing ownership in these communities you know in the first chapter of dao's you typically had non-transferable shares that represented social capital and some claim on assets but it was fundamentally different from being able to expand and have an asset that traded on a secondary market and so now we can use key metrics like token price as a way to sort of gauge sentiment there but i think successfully that was actually much more on the human side you know if you go into a discord if you come to a community call is that dow scaling in operations is it consistently taking on new work and shipping new things and if the answer is yes i would say that that's successful in my mind and if it

clearly doesn't have a recurring contributor base that's coming back to discuss things then i would say that that basically went to zero and is a failure so a cane cooper is saying it if the dow has a pulse still alive then there that's some measure of success here let's talk about the the mega dials like the ones that are going to like dwarf companies in size and their success what is it about kane is it like is it talent is it about community is it about better process do they are they do they have first mover advantage what do you think are the core things that make adal super successful i mean my experience the things that have really uh enabled dallas to to be successful and

have continuity is a sense of legitimacy right that the processes um and you know the systems that the dao uses are legitimate right um and you know this is really important for some of the things that um you know both cooper and trey mentioned like people need to be able to come in and contribute and feel like you know there is some uh meritocratic principles that they're operating on that it's not just some kind of click of people that you know can exclude you or whatever so they need to be open um they need to be transparent uh they need to be legitimate all of the processes that they're using um but i also think that uh

there's an another you know then this goes for the synthetics community i think there needs to be a level of uh kind of buy-in of all the community members that they're all kind of working towards some shared vision right and if you go back to you know the bad days of synthetics there are only like 20 people but there was a really you know a strong sense of like purpose what we were doing um and everyone felt like they could contribute um ideas concepts work whatever it was um it was very you know open low barrier to entry uh community um and you know there was a lot of engagement uh from you know even back in the foundation days myself and and other

uh you know members of the team with the community you know it was a collective effort that we were all working towards obviously as we've you know moved more towards a dow um and deprecated those kind of legacy functions it's that's gotten even more powerful um but i think now today you can turn up in synthetics you can start contributing um and you know there's a there's a real sense of you know legitimacy of the processes that we've implemented trach brought up the word purpose and and all three of the panelists used that word in in their most recent answer and so i kind of want to dive into the values and visions that we see inside of dao's uh and i want to start with you kane because you know synthetics and other uh you know defy dials like uniswap or urine

have a very concrete purpose right like yearn is to optimize yield synthetics is to generate a synthetics asset trading platform uh and then we have dowels like bankless dao which is a little bit more nebulous in their their vision right like it's to propagate the bankless meme the bankless message and bankless infrastructure and education which is you know not as specific as simply just like you know maximizing trading volume or synthetics market cap so so let's start with uh what what you think is the the values and visions of synthetics and how that plays a role in maybe dow membership dow organization dow coherence what is overall the role of values and visions for a dao

to succeed i think within synthetics the kind of primary guiding factor for us has just been solving hard problems um you know like iteratively experimenting towards a solution to this you know very difficult problem of how do you have a product lateralized uh you know network of uh synthetic assets um and you know we've had a lot of iteration and a lot of experimentation and not all of it's been successful um but you know we've we've always had this very kind of open-minded approach that you know we test things and you know anyone can come in and suggest something that they think would be you know a good potential

solution and so i think that that uh that kind of overarching principle has allowed us to be very fluid in how we've kind of tackled problems we haven't locked into this is the thing that we do and we only do it this way and you know everything outside of that is kind of uh you know excluded uh the solution space is open um with synthetics but i think even more broadly outside of you know trying to build a synthetic asset uh platform more like over time my my sense is that the community is as uh kind of interested and and as driven by this idea of uh coordination right and actually building a governance framework

that is legitimate and you know can allow this to operate now the fact that we need to be decentralized for a whole bunch of reasons um you know uh is has kind of been a forcing function for us to get this right um but we've started you know we started this process you know a long time ago and it's been a continuous process of moving uh decision making more and more into the hands of token holders um so i think that that maybe and you know vitalik kind of talked about this like d gov versus d5 in my mind you know the d gov part of synthetics is probably more important than the d5 part of synthetics um you know in 20 years time when we look back uh the experiments that we ran on on governance will probably be far more

important for the overall ecosystem than the experiments we ran on synthetic assets turning to you cooper kane is the uh you know the like like we said in the intro the benevolent prefrontal cortex of one specific dow but i think you might be up to 80 dow's at this point now in in the call and so with all these dows that you're a part of how do how is values and visions an important component of all these different dowels what's the general role of values and visions and taos yeah so i'd start by saying that uh most of the dows that i am are more social clubs than they are financial protocols and so i think fundamentally that you know view on the way that the dao was meant to operate changes sort of the focus you know i'd say for a lot of the

dallas that i'm in it's about meeting people online it's about finding a sense of purpose and community in the way that you spend your time on the internet and i think when you start to think about values from that perspective it's less outcome driven you know if i can go into a discord community and meet three people in my local city and make a friendship online that's kind of the end state that i'm driving forwards towards and i think that when you start to think about culture as a means for value accrual and for sort of just identity you start to get into very different situations and so i'd say a lot of the stuff happening right now around the nft market with profile pictures a lot of stuff happening around social clubs like friends with benefits you notice that there's not sophisticated financial products being built but when you look

under the surface you notice that people are far more interested in governance because they feel a sense of purpose and ownership over the way that they're contributing and as you scale that outwards i think the mission here is to make sure that no matter where you go in the world any city at any time you can find someone that has a shared value as you and go and hang out and have a good time grab a beer grab a coffee or whatever and so long as there's you know these sort of pockets around the world to meet community members i think the values of the dow is simply make friends online if we can do that well that's a successful now in my book trey take us home on this one what is the role of values and visions inside of a dao well it really helps align people's

effort and helps unlock their creative energy you know so knowing what you're headed towards and how you're going to get there so you know it's an active living discussion at urine um urine kind of came from chaos and you know we're growing all these new organs all the time but there are principles that matter to the people that you're in like action creativity innovation initiative collaboration and integrity you know like what i find in in urine and in many places in d5 is that not just trying to make a ton of money and like take over the world you're trying to do something more meaningful you know um and that's i think where a lot of also the

organization stuff comes in i really resonate with kane is saying like when i look at the things that are most exciting to me it's like how we are learning to coordinate and we're doing really hard things you know in doing it you know with no nets where we're we're walking this tightrope and you need incredible trust and incredible uh integrity and um to coordinate like that drake i want to ask you this question about like dow size like david and i have talked about from the earliest uh stages of of bankless that um this whole cryptic movement is about um social scalability essentially scaling human coordination right and we have this hardwired constraint

called dunbar's law or dunbar's number which is like inside of our biology and inside of our dna and that's that's the idea that any human being has a hard time managing over 150 personal connections so i i'm curious about daos as we think about like the size the optimal size for a dow um like what is the optimal size for a dow sometimes it seems like dallas can be very successful early on when you've got a core team dedicated and focused almost like a mini mini startup if you will but then like can we scale beyond that or are dow is meant to be sort of small tight-knit teams what what's your take on the optimal size for a dow and how it

uh how it might scale in the future well i think there's so many different types of things that people will use dows to do you know and often when we're talking about dunbar's number or looking at research from like mark granovetter or bill putnam around weak ties and social cohesion you know you're thinking about certain types of activities in certain environments but in dowse there's going to be even every type of activity like i could be part of a science fiction book club dao right with tens of thousands of people and if the decisions they're making is just what book are we reading next that'll be a pretty effective dow you know but if the dot dow is trying to do things like create an incredibly complicated piece of software um with a certain design etc it's going

to be hard to do that with so many people you need a smaller group to do that or at least you need groups of smaller groups that can coordinate in an effective way so it really depends on what you're trying to do but i think we'll see dows from one person to billions of people kane for what synthetics is done you guys started as sort of a very small even like a centralized team and now it's this decentralized community uh what's your take on a dow's size and how how that has scaled with synthetics so just first to go back you asked a question earlier about that actually [Music] there was a question about um early doubts right and i think one of the

issues that we had with early dallas is vidal created some fear in people and you know to have this like unconstrained thing that was just like deployed immutable and you know it could go wrong in all kinds of fun ways um and i think that then a lot of the kind of subsequent dowels that launched were really just [ __ ] doubts right like synthetics was not a doubt maker dao was not a dow right just because it had doubt in the name did not mean it was a doubt right it was a foundation it was run by you know one or two people uh we've only it's only been you know in the last like one or three weeks or something that make a doubt actually became a doubt right um by by winding up the foundation and kind of uh

you know handing over control um to you know the the system itself right to token holders and so i think when we look at you know that evolution from these very centralized entities that we're not really dow like at all to now the big difference is that we have tools um you know there's a lot of tools there's still a lot of tools to be built and i think that there's a huge open space uh you know the solution space for people to build better dow pooling the the project that got me most excited uh in the early days of ethereum was arrogant right now you know aragon obviously blew up spectacularly again not a dow and so there's something we said for that as well right like it's

it's amazing how these non-dows uh you know have such uh you know interesting coordination failures um but there's there's no question that there's a lot of room for better tooling in the data space um you know things like snapshot safe snap you know uh compound governance module there's there's definitely stuff out there but there's a lot more work that needs to happen um but when you've got something like synthetics i think you are kind of inclined to just roll your own tooling to an extent and one of the things that i've been pushing for within the community is for us to kind of try and uh get this tooling a little bit more accessible so that other people can use it um and i think that that's a really

big thing that we need to be pushing for all dallas if you build something cool urine does a really good job with this um you know as i said compound he's done you know some really cool stuff uh balancer you know snapshot like you it the onus is on you to get it out there and you know make it accessible for people to use i think that's really critical um and you know it's something that it's like uh it should be a really you know uh important part of not just building your own tooling but making sure that it's cooling that's accessible to the rest of you know the crypto community because that's the only way we can kind of test and experiment and iterate all these things so so cooper how about you want to bring you in on this uh the same question

about dow size like so jeff bezos i think amazon has implemented in the past something called like the two pizza rule where no meeting size should be larger than the amount of people who can eat from like two pizzas right so like if you run out of slices your meaning is too big it's the idea and that's the idea that like large numbers make things inefficient ineffective hard to make decisions do you think there's an optimal dow size i mean trey said kind of it depends on what you're trying to accomplish but what have you seen from your travels i would say that um for the core rooking working groups of a dao anywhere from five to ten people that have legitimate you know responsibilities and that feel really good to me i think having a circle for passive contributors to come in and contribute makes a lot of sense

but being able to assign key ownership roles to five to ten people and feeling confident they can always report back to a wider structure has been what i've seen work well you know i'll call out that there's no one size fits all down model you know i'm in one dial called fires where it's four of us and we are very intentional about not opening that up we want to keep that at four members you know i'm in another dial called friends with benefits that has 1500 members and counting and both of those are working extremely well you know on monday we had a town hall where 270 people came together we had about 10 of our 80 contributors come to the call and discuss what they're working on and what i'd call out here is that while there were you know 50 to 80 people in the dow

that are doing work on a day-to-day basis the fact that those thousand members can come and hear about that and feel a sense of ownership on what they're working on they then feel more inclined to take that next step and get involved and so the thing that i'm spending a lot of my time on is it's very clear to me people really want to work for a dao there's a lot of people that have a lot of skills to offer and they want to get involved but right now we just don't have good onboarding funnels and so organizational structure of dao's to be able to identify you're really good at something i'm going to put you into a team to work on that i think that's the single biggest hurdle we need to make dallas more scalable and that's something that i'm spending a lot

of my time on to figure out onboarding talent specifically you're talking about cooper correct cooper you earlier said that you are largely a part of like social dowse and so i want to ask this question to you uh there could i could i think i could argue pretty effectively that it was it uh the goal of all dows collapses down into increasing capital and that's extremely obvious when it comes to uh uh dowse like urine which is trying to you know put a bunch of you know wi-fi and eat on the treasury or or dows like uniswap was trying to take trading fees and they all have their own tokens and they want token price to go up do you agree that the goal of all dows is to increase its capital and i also want to put into uh into your your brain uh when

our episode with uh joel monegro really opened up the definition of what capital really is it's not just you know the financial capital that's on on the balance sheet but it's perhaps the social capital in human capital which may be that maybe that fits into the social dow conversation but in your opinion uh what is like the end game for dallas what is the goal for all dows yeah i would definitely uh double click on the fact that capital is both financial and social i think increasing relevance in the world is extremely important and so when i think about you know what is the purpose of these social dials um how do you value culture you know this is a question that i ask a lot i think in crypto so far we've been able to value financial assets which has been fantastic but now that you're seeing a

lot more interest in sort of meme and speculative investing what does it mean to place a price tag on a community ethos or to place a price tag on a fashion brand or something like that and so um i think it's a new asset class fundamentally but to answer your question directly i would say the mission for all dows is to increase relevancy and mind share in the world and whatever you define as capital to be able to to define that that's kind of what a doubt looks like to me drake with the goal of urine is the end game simply just to collect as much fees as possible and have the dow be as well capitalized as possible or is that overly reductive yeah i think it's that's one of the goals but the goal is also to just continue to find new ways to innovate to create to

work together to improve the space um yield aggregation is the thing that we're focused on now but that could change who knows kane same question to you i think you know again it comes down to purpose right like the purpose of synthetics is absolutely to uh you know expand uh the market cap of synthetic assets because that's the utility that that's the service that we're all coming together to coordinate to provide um but you know as i kind of alluded to it may be that in chasing that purpose or or chasing that goal we end up developing something that's far more powerful which is you know these decentralized governance tools right so i think that there are positive

externalities for daos because they operate in the open they're transparent all the software is open source or should be if it's not you need to take a look at yourself not naming any names but um you know i think that uh that they're they're creating public goods in a sense right um you know when you're when you're building this tooling um and so yes like in a very narrowly defined sense like synthetics is about expanding the capital um you know the assets under management and the market cap but i think that that can throw off some some positive things that are outside the scope of just capital accrual guys this is a hot panel we've still got some more things to cover including vitalik says coin voting sucks in his

recent article i want to get into that topic also talk about opportunities so the average listener has not yet joined a dow wants to be more active in dao's how do they get involved what are the opportunities in this space but before we get to those questions we want to thank the sponsors that made this episode possible when you shop for plane tickets you probably use kayak expedia or google to compare ticket prices so why would you limit yourself to just one exchange when you trade crypto when you make your trades you want to make sure that you're getting the best possible price on your trade and that you aren't paying high gas costs that you could have otherwise avoided that's why you should be using matcha matcha routes your orders across all the various defy exchanges on ethereum polygon binance smartchain and

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far we've got a few more topics to cover we've got kane we've got cooper we've got trach illuminating us on the world of daos how to dao i i want to get to an article that vitalik published actually earlier this week and cain you made reference to it earlier this this idea of uh degov being really important let's figure out decentralized governance maybe that is what the biggest thing that crypto's actually doing maybe that's even bigger than going bankless and bigger than d5 i don't know um but one of the uh the points he made was is kind of like coin voting sucks right like we can do better than simple coin votes in how we govern our d5 protocols and govern our dows i'm going to throw out something from his summary here coin voting is

attractive because it feels credibly neutral anyone can go and get some units of governance token on uniswap in practice however coin voting may well only appear secure today precisely because of the imperfections in its neutrality namely the important part large portions of the supply stay in the hands of a tightly coordinated clique of insiders so i want to ask you does coin voting suck and if so what's better where can we evolve to kane what's your take i mean i you know maker aside from being an incredible uh solution to uh to the stable point problem was also kind of a natural experiment in proving that coin voting sucks like i think pretty definitively put the

nail in that coffin that like direct coin voting has so many negative uh aspects to it and including like chilling effects of you know lack of participation uh lack of engagement all kinds of things right so i i'm 100 in agreement with uh vitalik that the direct coin voting on uh on kind of individual proposals um it's really sub-optimal um the thing that we this view that we had i guess in synthetics was like um how do we maintain rough consensus while overlaying some control for token filters right like how do you balance those two things and so in the early days it was like just disc board right you had a personality and discord you

could be a non whatever and that was the kind of you know one person one vote rough consensus um about you know specific proposals um and then i think that uh over time it evolved into a coin voting system but that coin voting system was sort of established in such a way is to ensure that it wasn't one point one vote it was sort of uh you know we applied like quadratic waiting to voting you can only vote for one council member so you can't you know run uh run the table and get all the council members on there so there were a number of things that we did to kind of uh constrain the direct point of voting um and create something that was more uh robust so you know there's still a lot

of experiments in that direction i think around delegation and representative democracy but in my mind that's kind of a hybrid thing because i still think you need some control for token holders you don't want to divorce you know the the tokens from governance um but you also don't want to have it so coupled to you know so tightly coupled that you get the you know all of the issues that we've seen with maker and some of the other uh direct token voting systems drake what's your take on this the suckiness of of coin voting and is there something less sucky the suckiness is uh enormous of coin voting and i um you know i mean there's so there's so much this question i love vitalik's article um agree with it very much um you know you need uh

i don't even know where to start the you know urine has developed a whole system of of of governance in order to do both listen to wifey holders and allow for people to make independent autonomous decisions without having to go for to to whip votes for every new decision which is just a nightmare um and uh you know one of the things that happens i think in crypto is we get so obsessed with adversarial environments and in blockchain we think that everything's supposed to work that way but that doesn't make any sense you know like there is a role for trust what a world with no trust in it is not one i want to be in you know but the beautiful thing is that because blockchain creates this incredibly

strong trustless foundation you see so much more trust flourishing on top of it and it's not about just open trust do whatever it's about being thoughtful with how you create structures and how you bestow trust and making it transparent so that you know one of the nice things about trust is that it can be broken and it can teach you how to make new systems to avoid that happening in the future and to get stronger uh and to share things in a better way and so we develop all of these tools like you're in governance too you know we've been having this awesome collaboration with synthetics recently looking at our two sides of different ways of governance which both have solved similar problems in different ways and neither of us have done direct on-chain voting uh for you know direct control of treasury or

contracts you know for good reason it can be just like metallic lays out there's a lot of ways to go wrong cooper what do you think about this coin voting you know i struggle with this topic a lot i think when you take a step back governance is such a small small problem for so many people in the space right now and more broadly the world you know i think for a lot of people the idea of using any asset to vote on something that you have a role in is a very new topic you know for the vast majority of people this world they've never participated in a governance decision most likely they never will and so i think that this article highlights a lot of really accurate points for like deep crypto governance systems today but where i get caught up with it is um

recognizing that we're not in a place yet where we've gone to a large enough scale for these experiments to play out in like a really meaningful manner and so to me what stood out from that article was just sort of the emphasis on quadratic voting you know i think that kane touched on this as well that we're slowly shifting into a world where it appears that you know the amount of individuals voting on something is a larger signal than the people with the most capital voting on that and so i think that trying to run more experiments in that direction where you're encouraging participation you know you're allocating capital to governance and you're trying to make sure that people recognize this is something to pay attention to i think we can get to a place where once we have more diverse opinions in the conversation we can start to see more

meaningful conversations around this but right now i think that for the most part it's the same 100 token holders voting on every protocol and i think to me that's a very small subset to make definitive you know decisions about whether or not systems are broken when in reality we're still so early in the conversation of what global governance would look like i think that's a really good point and uh while i i also agree with vitalik's article coin voting sucks i think it's also important to like take a step back and look at um all of our existing legacy systems suck more right like when's the last time you or any users had any influence in what twitter does or uber drivers they have any influence in their network right so like even the the basic zero to one of now users in the community to your point

earlier cooper have a vested interest in this network that is a big step forward so yeah coin voting still sucks and we can drive towards better solutions but like everything in the old world sucks way more like i want a piece of every network i am a part of as a user in this world this is what crypto has taught me yeah maybe yeah sorry i i think like vitalik's counter argument to that if i could be so bold speak for him uh would be that like you can have ownership of a thing without you know resorting to like direct token coding right like those things don't

need to be coupled um and yes like the ownership component is far more powerful um of a thing than existing systems um but you can have you can have an ownership component with no governance rights right and and you know that would still be better than you know the the status quo um because you don't have governance right now governance rights or um you know or uh a stakeholder uh you know in the um in these systems like uber or whatever um so i think that like we should be careful not to couple those things too tightly good point cooper you have anything to add there before we go on yeah i mean i think that cain's exactly accurate there

i think the education around why governance matters is something that i care very deeply about you know i don't think that a lot of people understand that if they take the time to learn about governance there's financial freedom at stake there's social freedom at stake you know i think for a lot of people when we hear governance we think about electing the next president which is a conversation that has not been naturally very exciting to them but what i've found a lot of purpose and in crypto is being able to use governance as a means to work on what i love and so you know outside of the mechanics for how governance is used i think that being able to educate people that by participating in the deepest nuance of the networks that you know and love you can work on literally whatever you want

in the world and i think as we get to a point of figuring out what that looks like you know the mechanics for how we do governance will get more defined you know as that kind of opportunity gap closes and everyone recognizes if i spend 10 hours a week on a governance forum chances are i'm going to make more money than any salary could ever pay me in my life guys so far this conversation has really been about dows holistically so i want to actually turn the conversation to individuals who make up these dows and how a dow lifestyle is different than the lifestyles that you know we would find ourselves in a typical legacy job uh and so cooper as somebody who's part of all these social doubts how does what does a dao lifestyle mean to you what does it mean to work for a dao and

how does that change how an individual can live their life and how do you explain it to your parents the great question uh the way i live my life now is ownership stakes and all the products that i contribute to so i'm slowly supplementing any form of consistent income on a fiat basis to just ownership stakes and networks and i think that principle of going into a community and being able to earn a significant ownership portion for the value you contribute it's extremely scary you know to my parents than me telling them hey i'm not going to take usd per month to pay my rent i'm going to earn magic internet tokens they're going to be worth more you know for the last three years they were like what the hell are you doing but you know as i started to pan out more and we saw

specifically this last year those ownership stakes become valuable i think that it's easy to recognize if you go into a network and you start working for ownership over capital there's going to be a path forward there i think to answer that question very directly of how i spend my time it's a connector role you know i think that the single most important thing to do for daos is putting people into the right pockets together and then helping to coordinate that effort and so a lot of my time is basically identifying who are the key contributors in that dow how do i make sure that they're actually owning things that matter and how do i make sure they're touching base with all the other people that know what matters so that the ball is moving forward and they're communicating that to every other member of that down

trey can you kind of compare and contrast what your life was like before you started working at urine and how just the lifestyle of working inside of a dao has has changed how you live your life well i was writing a science fiction novel before i started working at uran's is pretty different um but before that i ran a company you know and um it's super different um in so many ways like one of the things that i'm most passionate about with with working in dao's is is creating i call it like the party bike you know a system where on a party bike anybody can pedal as much as they want you know somebody wants to steer they can they can drive and you want to stop pedaling and just chill and drink your beer that's fine like dowse can be the system that

harvests all the action from all of the contributors in any way that they want to contribute it which really supports this kind of self-sovereign response individual responsibility of what is it that i care about what do i want to work on i am not going to sign my life away as a wage slave for x number of hours any hour of my time is worth more than than money you know but if i just do those things that i'm called to money flows through the magic of daos and through the magic of crypto just like cooper was saying like i just when i started at yearn i didn't know i like wasn't involved that much in crypto until last summer and i just showed up at urine i was like holy [ __ ] dows are incredible i'm there's nobody's

in charge here i'm just gonna make the role that i want to do and i'm gonna do that and it has been extraordinarily beneficial in my life and it was wonderful what is that role by the way drake that's a good question i mean i work on governance and compensation and organization stuff yeah that's what it's tough ryan fun fact uh kane also was working on a a book before he came to synthetics if you guys didn't didn't know that but kane you've been a serial entrepreneur uh dare i say workaholic for for for like years now so as somebody who's had a perspective on uh the laborers inside of synthetics as well as

yourself what is like what is work like inside of synthetics and and how do you see that as a model for daos at large yeah so we had a really interesting contrast right because blue shift the company that i founded before synthetics which was this payment gateway that a bunch of the crypto exchanges in australia used uh to you know get around banks um because banks didn't like crypto uh back then they're still kind of dope they're a little bit more open to it um so we in our office synthetics kind of grew um you know out of the blue shift office right there it was you know there were kind of similar people working on it and so you had this very like rigid corporate hierarchical structure with like investors and um you know a ceo and

all like all these different things and then you had this like crazy thing over you know the other side of the office right um which was a very flat structure even from the beginning um but i think the the primary difference when we transitioned from uh foundation to dao is we went from a model where people had to do what i said right like they were actually obligated to do what i said right and you know i like to think that i was pretty open about you know collaborating with people and listening to them and all that sort of stuff but the reality is that if i said you have to do this like you had to do it right and then we went to this model where that didn't exist anymore and you didn't have to do

anything that i said right you know the [ __ ] you wanted and so now we've got you know all these different stakeholders uh in the project and people just do whatever they think like trick was saying you know they make their own roles they carve out more positions for themselves etc and it's a very different working environment it's much more open and i would argue a lot more fun it's a bit more chaotic but it's it's more fun than a rigid hierarchy trick i want to ask this next question to you uh dows we've seen are a lot looser in their borders right if you're a part of a dow you can freely become part of another dao and there's no jealousy there's no employment contract like there are with with legacy companies and that's kind of opened up the design

space for the products that daos can build and so now that members can be a part of multiple daos and dao's can less more freely collaborate with other dows what kind of things can we unlock with dow to dow collaboration uh now that there's less of a competitive environment and more of a collaborative environment with dallas what can we do now yeah it's a really cool concept really and like the thought experiment like what if like one-third of apple employees also worked at microsoft you know like what that was the dominant paradigm for you know the fang cadre i think so much and i think in order to get there i mean we can do so much in terms of just collaboration and really shifting what is the purpose of what

we're doing is the purpose to create these gigantic uh immortal uh company entities that extract resources and turn it into work product you know is that the purpose of what we're doing here no you know so does it like we have all these trappings from the past like this corporate veil and legal boundaries and oh i've got the salary and this compensation and i've got this lock-in investing all this stuff and we import all this stuff into crypto just because you know we haven't invented anything better yet in a lot of ways but a lot of what i'm working on is like better ways to do compensation so you don't even need to worry what other projects you're working on who cares if you're moonlighting or if you're

working on another project if you're bringing value to a project it should be rewarded so we need more fluid systems for enabling that type of you know contribution cooper since you're a part of so many social dials do you notice a lot of the same members in one dao being a part of another dao and how does that change the dynamics of all the different dows you're a part of i think it just encourages positive some games you know we see a lot of the core contributors to social clubs leading into every community that they're in they'll do recurring panels and one now they'll host workshops and another one and you start to see that the camaraderie in that sector is a lot stronger because people are sharing everything together you know to kane's earlier point about open sourcing valuable tooling i've been recommending so many people use their vesting

contracts the liquidity mining contracts they made have been you know the market standard and i think in the next three to six months here we're going to see those same level of open source tooling for more social applications so things like coordinate i think our fantastic example around getting paid we're now seeing stuff around like tokenized membership events so for fw we've built like a gatekeeper product that allows you to go to irl events using an rsvp system you know so something that we're now going to open up and allow other communities to use and i believe over the next like year or so here we're going to see both like financial products that are shared between communities and more important you know social coordination mechanisms so that if you have a group of 20 people on the internet how do you assign identity and

reputation and the more we can figure out systems on that front i think the more we're going to win together as a whole cooper just a quick follow-up on this like at some level i used to say this in the early days of d5 that it feels like we're we're beta testing we're all beta testers in the future the world's future financial system right it still feels that way but like i also feel that way with with dows right you're talking about like uh all of these ways to participate in community well like what has community just about everything like everything like you talk about artists you talk about like you know fan clubs you talk about like the video gaming market these are all little pockets of the community it feels very much like crypto is just alpha beta testing all of this infrastructure that the rest

of the world is about to use any reflections on that on how big this could get yeah the biggest mental model i've been following for a doubt specifically is community meets products not product meets community you know in the world previously teams would build a product and try and find users to go out and adopt it with daos you are building a community and that community is deciding what to build together and even if it's the shittiest product in the world they're all going to go out and go to bat for it because they built it together and i think that precedent of only building things because the community thinks it's valuable actually helps us to identify what should be built and reduces a lot of the friction around things that don't really matter kane has the uh again the prefrontal cortex of of synthetics uh with it which

is a very goal-oriented uh project it has very explicit outcomes that it wants would you ever notice the people the contributors of the synthetics ecosystem have their attention drift elsewhere to other projects and how was that ever a problem or was that kind of cool uh you may recall d5 summer um that was very distracting sir it was i felt very distracted distracting oh my god uh but you know what like and this is where i think the difference between um you know go back to like you know my my formal life as the ceo of blue shift versus you know the founder of synthetics uh

it was it would not have been acceptable for all of the staff of blue shift to just like run down the street chasing after some [ __ ] crazy thing right like that just was not like that wouldn't happen it couldn't happen right like there's a lot of oversight around what people are doing they're very defined roles um you had you know people within the synthetics community like helping out to launch new uh projects they were like you know helping out with community um helping out coordination they were just yield farming themselves they were djinning they were you know doing all kinds of crazy [ __ ] they were you know doing code reviews for people um audits like and there was no real way to kind of constrain that and there was

at one point i think there was a little bit of concern um within the project of like everyone is very distracted and i just sort of said like this is the process right like you know everything that everyone's doing people are going to learn from um and you know it's going to come back and it's going to you know populate uh the the project with a whole bunch of you know good and bad information that people have gathered out in the outside world and that's just the way it goes right um so you know we we took a very kind of uh you know um i guess uh open view of you know letting people do whatever they wanted and um you know and now with the with current kind of structure what we're trying to work out is how do we have some

uh level of coordination within the core contributors right who are paid they're paid to start them monthly to work on specific things to make sure that the outcomes that we're looking for um you know from those people are kind of met um but it's a hard problem right like when you start from a very open kind of framework it's hard to apply retrospectively um you know some rigidity to it so we'll see how that goes but it's definitely experiments running right now it's super interesting because you definitely want accountability but you also in the dow world have such loose ties on talent but you know i i think that can actually be an advantage for crypto in that like hey talent's not going to want to work for handcuffs anymore like your google your silicon valley

non-compete clause like forget that right doesn't exist in crypto so i do think this is going to be a boon for for bringing talent in this space this new way of working is going to catch on i want to ask another question to the panelists um david and i have had a reoccurring discussion right so this term is dao that we've been saying the entire time decentralized autonomous organization dao right the a in that sometimes i find a little bit not troubling not whether it's intentional to see but like doesn't necessarily reflect the meme of dao right because a lot of what we're talking about is not autonomous by autonomous we just mean like written in code right ideally immutable code on something like

ethereum for instance do you think that these are really dues digital organizations instead of taos that we've been talking about this whole time and how do you square that in your mind is the meme sort of wrong kane what are your thoughts yeah so you know my my sense of autonomous even if it wasn't the original intent and i think it kind of wasn't like again if you go back to d dao right the idea was that it was this you know set of uh you know contracts running on ethereum that um you know didn't require any intervention right but again i think what is that intervention because it still required humans right humans were an input to the process of the dow right so it had to

compel humans to want to do something right which was like put up proposals to be funded etc right so it was never like autonomous to like the human species right it was never just a piece of software that was going off and doing something that never interacted with humans right humans were an implicit process um but i think for me the autonomous component as we've kind of iterated on this this concept is more about being uh you know self-contained right it doesn't it doesn't require like the the humans that are an input to the process are within the dow if that makes sense right um and it doesn't the rules are self-contained um and and coherent and it doesn't require uh

sort of resorting to some external arbiter of you know um like a legal system or something like that right everything that is done within the dow happens within the rule set that's created within the dow um and that rule set can obviously change right you know there's those dowels that evolve and rules change um but even the changing of the rules is encoded in the dow itself right so you know there's this evolutionary concept but um but still there is this sense that they are distinct and self-contained and that's where the autonomous for me really resonates drake what do you think about this weigh in for us yeah that's an awesome explanation and yeah i like to think about the autonomous part as kind of recursive or holarchic

which is that the whole object is autonomous and then dao is really this kind of soup of human and software objects all functioning autonomously the people inside the tower also autonomous and i think it really brings it back to that core crypto value of sovereignty self-sovereignty it's like i am responsible for my actions uh with the other people i work with and together we are responsible for our actions we are autonomous cooper i i i love that description that trick just made of this software and human soup that's really what it feels like it's being in like a stew with other human beings intermixed with code do you have any thoughts on this question of how autonomous are daos or should we even

care yeah i think um echo some of the earlier comments when i think of the word autonomous i think about independence you know we've heard multiple panelists say that many contributors and dows are self-defining their own role they're self-defining their own responsibilities they're leaning into something that feels very empowering to them and so i think of autonomous i think less about will this thing work in the absence of humans i think more about will this thing work with people feeling fulfilled from the work that they do in that dow organization and so when you start to look around at all these dows and sort of judge the mental health of the people working on them i think you're going to find that it's much more autonomous and sort of how those people are living their day-to-day life and then aggregate i think that that energy just brings

about such a new level of productivity that you know i could care less honestly if it's being run by software or humans but so long as there's sort of a collective consciousness that's pushing it forward in a meaningful way i think that's the degree of autonomy that i measure i think the original definition of daos really focused on the humans on the periphery and code at the center definition of daos where we and this was these very pioneer sky ideas of like uber and airbnb on the blockchain and uber instead of being like a bunch of bureaucrats uh with a bunch of you know people in the middle uh with the with the value creators on the outside we could just replace the inside with code and the value creators would just talk to this like robotic like hive mind uber app that was somehow a bunch of

contracts on ethereum and there would be actually no internal human organizations and i think the where we've gone from that o.g version of dallas which we actually have never actually seen before to where we are now which is kind of how everything is a dow the way that that ins that definition really changed is the a started to be inclusive of human incentives and so now we are just making big assumptions that humans are going to act rationally and basically our entire industry is based on that assumption that human incentives are now going to make this thing take the next step forward and so that's really where we regain uh control and and appropriateness over that word autonomous in digital organizations so i wanted to add a few

sense of david are you saying uh you're okay with it being called dowsed now that's what i heard you say well it was it's not like we're ever going to be able to change that i do think the more appropriate name is dues but did for digital organizations but it's that ship has absolutely sailed yeah i remember we tried to open finance rather than defy yeah i don't know i don't remember don't worry i remember guys i want to turn to the last few questions that we have in this panel and this panel has been absolutely mind-blowing i'm going to have to go back and listen to it myself uh and on the bankless program we are obsessed with the concept of slaying moloch he is uh the god of coordination failure and we want him to retreat

forever and ever and ever and that is kind of the the through line that we think this crypto industry can really help us achieve in this world and so from from your perspective how do daos fit into this conversation how can daos help slay moloch uh cooper let's start with you i mean in short i think that um communities have never had the opportunity to share financial and social capital together so when you think about the way that you spend your time online it's not about going and working nine to five to spend your time on the weekends doing what you love i think dows are the means in which we can work on the things we love and get paid for that and so as far as it relates to mock and sort of slang coordination failure i think when you start to shift

focus away from financial capital as ends meet to instead like financial capitalism mean to work with your peers in a more productive manner i think dows are the single most important way that we can get to a place that feels really positive in that conversation trek same question to you how can daos help slay moloch well i think every different shape of organization has a different cognitive capacity basically and what a child is capable of doing or solving is far different from what an adult can do and the organ is the best level of organizational technology we've had in the past these corporations are kind of like rusty machines compared to dows which can be like nature and if you look at what nature can do it can it can grow a grasshopper from dirt you know like yeah

we can make a boeing 747 but there are classes of problems on this planet that we are so far from solving that dows will be able to unlock for us kane why don't you take us home on this one how can daos slay moloch so one of my favorite books of all time is inadequate equilibrium by elizabeth and i think when i was reading it it was it was like 2017 2018 something like that um and to me it was almost like a road map of like every problem that uh like better incentive uh mechanisms and coordination games could solve right like you know the book goes through like 10 different things right

that like are just uh kind of equilibria that exists in the world that um you know are kind of hard to break right um there's a bunch of examples like uh you know um replication studies and uh you know academic literature um the fact that like no one's incentivized to do that you just want to you know publish novel results and it doesn't matter and i think that um a lot of the reason for these things is corporations right like corporations have captured academic literature right like there's you know huge corporations that are you know responsible for publishing certain journals they want um you know the eye-popping uh headline things right it's a little bit like you know uh media

as well right um you know they don't there's no there's no money in reputation studies even though that's what we need to actually kind of get science done and so when i look at something like a dow to solve this this problem of like academic literature coordination it's obvious that that as a coordination mechanism could solve it unfortunately i don't have the time to do it but i hope that someone somewhere you know gets this idea and kind of runs with it because um you know it's it's a really hard thing to kind of publish and distribute um academic research right and peer review and do all that stuff it takes a lot of resources and you know to trace point like corporations were the only ones that could uh kind of accumulate enough resources to do something like that on a

global scale and now we have data right like maybe governments maybe we're like the alternative the government's pretty slow and shitty and corporations kind of ran rings around them for a long time but now we have these dows that have the ability to accumulate the resources to actually do things on a global scale um and you know can basically reset incentives and create new economic incentives and set up new coordination games that can uh really shift the equilibria you know on a number of these problems that's super cool framing governments slow and shitty corporations a little bit faster dow's order of magnitude faster than that maybe able to tackle new class of problems super cool that book was called inadequate equilibria if you missed it as as kane mentioned

adding it to my reading list maybe go join a reading club dow and get more more of those recommendations guys this has been a fantastic panel um and i want to end with this question so we're just talking super big picture right like pie in the sky like how how is this going this social technology going to change the face of of of humanity how's it going to make the world better um i want to zone in on on you guys individually right so um tell us about kind of your uh your dow story how have daos changed your life and uh in what ways cooper let's start with you i mean i can confidently say dolls are the single only reason that i have the name i do in crypto right now you know my entire introductory in the space is

ode to dao's you know starting out from molok dao um and meta cartel working my way in for shares for writing articles to them getting involved with d5 dows to now more of these social clubs if dallas were not a thing i simply wouldn't be here today and so i think for anyone out there that's looking to get involved i'm not a developer by trade i have absolutely zero technical skills but the fact i've been able to build a career on the back of this cool new internet technology solely thanks to dao's i think it's an incredibly powerful precedent that if you go out of your way to find people to work with online you know there are going to be financial opportunities greater than anything you could have ever imagined 21st century upward mobility cooper do you mind if i ask how old you are for

some of the folks listening you're like in your in your shoes yeah i just turned 26 in june crazy guys crazy kane how about you have dallas change your life i think you know as someone who's done a lot of startups um and as someone who has uh you know tried to tackle some pretty hard problems and and failed to do so um the ability to uh kind of coordinate people coordinate capital um and work on really hard problems uh is you know i think something that just wasn't really contemplated in like the startup world uh you know 20 years ago uh there was this idea you had to go to

vcs um what vcs would fund there's a bunch of old white guys on sandhill road right like the solution space of problems that they were willing to tackle was very very narrow as much as they would like to think uh that's not the case and i think that dao's um and you know crypto capital formation and dow capital formation just opens up a world of different problems that uh that can be tackled um you know and it's incredible and i'm obviously super excited to be involved in that drake how about you how have dao's changed your life well you know yeah i mean i worked really really hard for many years starting companies running companies doing project work for clients

and it burned me out hard you know i tried to i tried to bring in a lot of these new ideas into those old companies like tl organizations and tried holocracy and things like that and worked okay but you know i ended up like you know selling my last company a few years ago and i was like you know i just spent time like a year just healing you know i was like from all that work i didn't really expect that i'd come back in anything like this and um you know when i found dowse though it was like there's a few times in life where you're like wow this is like the combination of all the things that i'm excited about and i actually have the skills that i can really help this space and so it's it's yeah it's brought me back into this kind of um

you know creating impact in the world and another way has changed my life is it really challenges me personally you know it makes me question a lot of my assumptions about myself a lot of my psychological hang-ups you know because when you're in this space of like infinite possibility um you really have this chance to question what the [ __ ] you're really doing you know and that's a beautiful question to ask what do you really want and dao's helped me ask that super cool guys i i think there are hundreds of stories like this maybe thousands of stories but they're they're about to be hundreds of thousands of stories maybe millions dolls are really going to change uh the face of how we organize collectively how we do work in the future like so many things uh like i always always think

about this when you have a really insightful panel or bankless episode it's just like you look at the world and the world sucks like it sucks sometimes but crypto is something that gives each of us hope right like i am optimistic because of crypto um and it's super exciting to see these new social technologies emerge in this way and uh the spirit of optimism and guys thank you for making us even more optimistic on dao's panelists kane cooper trake you guys have been phenomenal we appreciate it thank you guys it's good everyone guys if you're hanging on youtube make sure you like and subscribe david i fit this one in like and subscribe again uh david's nodding his head happy about

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