Bankless x UpOnly Therapy Stream

Transcript

yeah we're live brother oh what's up guys what's up yeah wow thankless after after dark yeah without Kobe just with Ledger what's up well he's still in the shower he's coming right yeah allegedly yeah yeah yeah he's just showering unless we're gonna get two rug pulls in one day yeah I've heard he's uh he's finalizing the next up only sponsorship so he's busy buying FTX right now for one dollar we can all buy FTX that's no longer a problem it's only a dollar it's only a dollar why are we so stressed out over a dollar I don't understand because you're buying it so you might have to pay millions billions of dollars to make everyone

whole um to pay their debt listen on our stream we got a corner on the bottom left and maybe Kobe will be there maybe Justin's son will be there maybe another special guest would be that I don't know I think if Justin sun gets there before Kobe Justin's son gets to come back another time after that um Justin's son did you guys seen this I'll share my screen for people who don't know he he just announced that he is planning to bail us out oh we have two different form factors of

live streams uh coming together right now oh man sorry yeah just tell the audience they're smart they're smart smart audience go go subscribe to up only right now what should we tell them uh up only dot TV no that's not right go to Twitter go to twitch.tv slash up only TV something like that who cares best podcast in crypto what are you drinking David uh oh I am drinking a Naked and Famous with a habanero in it uh because like I said while we were getting the stream ready to go uh Sam bankman freed made himself very famous but he's been swimming naked this entire time that is my drink what are you drinking

Ledger uh sorry I was dming Justin's on the video link I'm stuck in the waiting room wait is he really is he really coming in uh here's I need more people on Twitter here's Kobe I need more people on Twitter pressroom Kobe is what's up what's up screwing up my scenes coming up coming in fashionably late how you doing David you've upgraded your background is it a green screen uh no this is uh Brooklyn not a green screen it was Brooklyn last time you saw me I was in San Diego nice how you doing cozy it's very cozy it's crazy and nice yes are you already live yeah we are oh we are live brother yeah yeah we're live on both channels and yeah you already messed up my stuff when two streaming platforms come

together bad things happen uh well yeah stream if you didn't spend half your time like [ __ ] redoing it no sorry I was like I like literally just woke up so good morning good morning where did you leave things when you uh when do you went to sleep um what do you know yeah uh oh yeah sure I haven't even looked at like what's happened since um well binance had walked away yep um and like Sam still hadn't said anything Susie had just tweeted the like I tried sad face thing yeah that's about it I

think the only thing that's come after that is like people have concluded that there's something like a six to seven billion dollar hole in fgx's balance sheet I don't think we've waited I thought we were up to like eight to ten do we know Wall Street Journal said it was about eight right it was like it could be as large as eight it could be as large as eight how did that happen that is a big hole eight billion dollar hole in your balance sheet I mean I I don't know if you're asking me how to lose money on crypto I can tell you um and I mean it seems like they just did [ __ ] up stuff with customer deposits right like they just either loaned them out or directionally traded

them or like used them for their own personal reasons um do you think it was all Alameda because imagine okay Alameda should have blown up along with a16 or three three hours capital and the rest of them but they got they got yeah that's not invoke a16c right now uh but but they didn't because uh FTX uh gave them a big ass buffer they didn't give them like a multi-billion dollar buffer so like it would have FTX still have gone under without alamina because I feel like that answer is almost yes yeah I mean I don't know I I the only thing I can think of is plausible but I have to admit that I just like

constantly reveal myself as naive in these things because like maybe they just gave them eight billion dollars dude like we don't like they could just done that they could have gone oh it'll be fine they'll make it back they're really great Traders um but they could have also imagine if they got like a Bitcoin or ethereum denominated whole when the prices were much lower so let's say they had a missing um like hundred thousand eighth hole or something but ethereum was worth like 300 at a time and they were like okay cool we can plug this whole no drama and then suddenly ethereum's worth five thousand dollars and in order to try and cover the whole

they've done stuff wrong and made it worse perhaps um I can maybe buy that um but that means that they've they've been in trouble for like 18 plus months now okay but it's so well that's the thing right it's like um how like how did SBF get himself in this situation right like was was this is this kind of a a person who's a a con man from the beginning did he do you think he began with this end game in mind or do you think he's like a lot of people who who kind of go down this path where you know it's a shortcut here to shortcut here and gradually he kind of slips into the position that he's found himself in in in early November like is

he purely nefarious con man or is this I I I can't think he accidentally stumbled into like losing eight billion dollars but pretty impressive is there an element of that a main man I don't know I I don't know like I watched the surroundings documentary thing recently and it seems like she started with good intentions and then things just like Slipped Away and then at some point she like turned and was like I gotta keep I've got to be evil in order to like keep this like rolling and then she chose the evil path yeah yeah I I I just don't like if it's impossible to know the like some people were telling me all this stuff had

happened really recently so Alameda had a big problem in like September um and you I don't know if you saw that it was a tweet that said like Sam he was saying we're just moving we're rotating some wallets and there was like the eight billion dollars of ftt moved um at the end of September and he tweeted oh don't worry about it which is rotating some wallets but um this was the point when um a bunch of the um collateral was like um borrowed against perhaps um and in which case it's like you know they were fine until really recently and then almost instantly blew up but I don't

know I I find it easier to suspect that like gotta be two-steps it was it was [ __ ] for a while and then like the tide going out reveals I thought it was [ __ ] like if it's [ __ ] for a while and you try and like fix it but like make it worse and then the tide goes out and you're just not in control of that maybe maybe that makes sense um but I mean who [ __ ] knows dude what second third biggest exchange there's another element here that I'm confused to buy which is now they're talking about the FTX hole alone so is lending money to Alameda part of the FTX hole or is that the Alameda hole right like who you know what I mean because if it's 8 billion

not even counting money they lent to Alameda like they did other that's even dumber right that's what I was saying that's what I'm saying it's not just Alameda they would have gone under regardless of Alameda yeah if it was not just that kind of what what counterparty or what did they do with the money well they bought they bailed out half of the industry when there was blood on the streets during entering that was that was a 250 million dollar line of credit yeah weren't they weren't they buying a lot of things but it doesn't add up it doesn't happen you can't get a billion dollars worth out of that so if you're at 8 billion then what the hell happened when you're making 10 million a day or more or whatever or whatever Kobe did the napkin math on based on trading fees

it doesn't make any sense like and if that's the case then there's got to be some like really serious fraud maybe it was just really simple and they went right okay so we make you know low mid eight figures a day if we borrow a billion dollars of customer deposits to YOLO into you know like his personal Robin Hood stake or something which by Robin Hood it's good for like alignment of our companies whatever um it actually only takes FTX however many days like three or four months to re-earn that money so like what's the problem there and you do it once and you like cool it works we're now whole again uh we actually just

managed to accelerate our business because we use those customers deposits to achieve our business goals and now those customers deposits are replenished maybe you do that a few times trying to be like efficient with your all the money that's available to you um and suddenly like you've done it one too many times and the tide goes out and there's a bank run and like you know like there was literally a gigantic background for this to even be like properly discovered so they could have operated much closer to insolvent like the insolvency line where they just don't have deposits left um

if this didn't happen it could have gone on for years and maybe they could have even ended up whole um without us knowing but um probably not given but on top of that they've been raising like crazy for the last year they raise a ton of money at super high valuation so they also lost that money too yeah it was like what two billion in the last year yeah yeah raised their actual Capital raise was 2 billion yeah I didn't realize it was that high I think that's right I think that's right enough memory I think they've noticed billions of dollars collectively well they the one raise was like the meme raise that's 420 million 69 000 or something stupid uh right right but the

um I don't know what the cumulative was don't know what they spent the money on yeah but at least block find a sports Stadium there's a line of credit right like it wasn't it was an option all right the stadium is paid annually and it's probably eight figures at most [Music] um a lot a lot of the channel TSM they did do a big thing with TSM yep only podcast sponsorship wasn't that expensive uh I like I don't understand where it went I don't understand apparently has 660 million of

personal uh credit that he was filing bankruptcy for was that accurate I don't even know what's real was that was that right here yeah I thought that was someone impersonating tier 10K or whatever okay so that was the tier 13 fake one yeah what what about the other um you know character in this in this whole thing uh CZ I mean do you think he Mastermind this from the very beginning you think he was planning this was this like downfall of my competitor like pure Machiavellian Art of War [ __ ] where he's just like um trying to knock out SPF trying to acquire the assets for cheap and then like maybe now it just got out of hand

like it went too far because I I can't think that this feels good for binance it was it's certainly terrible for the industry I don't know how far this sets us back like back to 2019 2018 2017. I think the question is like did CZ know the ftt weakness in in FTX and also Alameda did they know when he started tweeting because yeah and what was his plan right like did he want this to happen I don't think he I mean I don't think he wanted he thought he was poking he thought he was poking a vulnerable bear and he was poking a scarecrow that was rotten right I think that's right I think that's right I think yeah I think

he went into like like um put them in line might be like luck look what we can do to the sentiment around your exchange like remember who's the boss type thing big time and then accidentally exposed um a hollow a gigantic Hall yeah but like if he did actually Mastermind this like that's kind of crazy that's like one of the most insane um like business chess moves that I guess I'll get to see in real time in my life um but like maybe that's the thing maybe we never get to know I don't think so we always have to we always wonder so we always love your CZ

oh I don't know about CZ side of it but in terms of we'll we'll know a lot about the FTX side oh big time oh yeah the uh but yeah the CZ side that's that's up to CZ and bit boy uh someone should tweet at bit boy get him to con come on oh God I really don't like that guy yeah I mean I really didn't like our guests yesterday either so uh Kobe you've never directly interfaced with bit boy right um I spoke to him for the first time ever um do you remember when the lawsuit was happening with a tozy yeah so when he was suing a tozy and then I offered to fund a tozy right that shows his defense um I emailed bitboy then well that was

ongoing before he'd like officially pulled out saying like just want you to know a tozi's in hospital right now his wife's due date is like literally today um so like all this is happening at the time his child is being born um like I will fund him unlimited to take that stress away um and like here is why um like I don't think that you should do this and then he sent me a very thoughtful response and then we've emailed a couple of times since maybe like two or three emails exchanged um the latest one he just asked me like what I thought of the token promotion business model in general like is it

even redeemable and I sent him like um short essay about like how I think the token promotion business model is just like only the only people that want the token promoters the token promotions from YouTubers are people that want the price to go up in the short term like you never see like are they going we need to go to like back like bands crypto banter and get uh like a token ad um instead they just built something that worked and um um and then he made a video which was him basically reading out the email as though it was his own words um which was um yeah I mean I thought it was pretty good

that he did it and said like this stuff is bad even though he did that stuff in the past and it owned up to all that stuff but um yeah other than that I've spoke to him maybe three times okay well that's more than that so yeah I mean we just didn't have a full conversation with him yeah we had we had like an hour other than that yeah we are yeah we had one email and then we had the show with him yeah I feel like I I feel like I kind of understand him a lot more after that like I understand like what he is doing in the space and like what his motivations are what is it um I think I think bitboy really likes attention oh yeah yeah like but I think that that

um motivates him in a way that um yeah I don't know maybe money motivates us he has a background in like internet marketing which I kind of makes sense and I feel like he was like oh this crypto thing I can do internet marketing via viral videos here and then the ethical consequences of what the hell he was doing came up way way later and he was probably too far gone in terms of what type of monetization strategies existed so I kind of understand how he got there but I don't understand him per se other than I see what you're saying about from an attention perspective but I don't know I mean I can't I can't connect with it man there's no he could he you should be able to look at those

deals and recognize there's there's no winner with what he was doing with like the token promotions of like you know [ __ ] Jam token you know like it just doesn't you know it's like um he um yeah look like I agree with that I I think at the end of the day I walked away from that and thinking that like oh I mean bit boy is just kind of like a of regular guy like he's not a devil he's not an angel he's just kind of a he's just a regular guy and one of his comments when we were talking to him was like I just started creating content that my audience wanted right and they wanted to hear about the latest like [ __ ] coin that was gonna Moon overnight and so that's what I gave them and so he

was like what's the harm in that I there's demand for a product and I serve it up and like our point is just like yeah but there's a difference between what people want and like what people need and these are noobs and you have like a responsibility if you have a platform of your size um I don't know I'm hopeful he's getting some of that he seemed kind like actually he came on the episode and he was very um he's a different person contrite like Jason like I I thought we were going to be in the in the octagon with like you know WWF wrestler and we weren't he just came on and he was I mean he apologized at one point dude okay so the most interesting thing Ryan is like our chat right now is we have

like 50 people who are like uh uh a bit boy was right he called out FTX uh bit boy is awesome and then the other half of the chat is like bit boy's a clown don't ever talk to him again why can't you guys talk about something else he posted a video today where he was just like zero remorse for the victims and all this was this the one in his bathroom he's like in a bathroom or something oh he's like wearing his Gucci suit or yeah but he was it's one thing to say like I told you so you're this guy was a scammer I knew it I had proof that's fine but he claimed this like euphoric level Victory and there are no winners here yeah bit boy is not a winner here CZ is

not a winner here CZ acknowledges that I don't know what cc actually feels but his public stance on it was at least like fair and and and reasoned and bitboy's emotions took over the guy cannot control his emotions and he cannot recognize the fact that they're victims based on these outcomes the outcomes from his promotions oh I swam down like the the easiest fastest lane with the strongest current that I could to make money I didn't do anything wrong it's like okay it's the same reason that Martin shkreli pisses me off the dude who's like selling pills for 750 a pop because he could

it doesn't make it right there's an ethical way to do business and there's an unethical way to do business and that's your choice that you have to live with as an individual yeah and swimming down the easy Lane for Max profits is in my opinion um not not a worthy Choice the theme of 2022 perhaps or at least all those people who do that I I don't I don't think he went into compression business to like maliciously steal from a lot of people but I think when you're making a lot of money doing a business model that's probably not great for your users it's easy to not acknowledge that while the goings good and maybe even lie to yourself and say like actually everyone's winning the Market's going up

everyone's kind of winning yeah there's some losers um but we do good due diligence and we disclose and blah blah blah blah so like you know whatever the only comical um the only like really comical part of this for me is that like If instead of having FTX as a sponsor for apparently we just Shield loads of [ __ ] coins and done like token promotions a different [ __ ] token every episode we'd look better now than we currently do I mean you never know right sure enough we look like [ __ ] right now I'm not trying to say we're done but here's what's crazy it's like um so you guys have had like one sponsor consistently bankless has had like many like we have multiple sponsor slots right a few handfuls here and like I'm just like saying it David like we do our

best to select our sponsor and like our sponsors and we clearly we do not I mean we turn a ton of sponsors away or like we're Shady like you're shady you can't we can't support that but like just law of numbers in crypto I mean you never know and it doesn't have to be a a crypto exchange hack it could be just like anything somebody wrote some sloppy smart contract code there was like a bridge that was flawed there was some kind of multi-sig that you know was a a Vector that we didn't realize North Korea freaking attacked like who knows what could happen and that is um it's just a lot of responsibility well it's the same thing as like why the hell are

we in this industry in the first place we're in this industry because it's an industry about money uh so all sponsors are Downstream of something of that nature uh there's no way out of that risk no matter what guys the chest blowing up about um yeah we know SBF retweeted Justin's son we know that that's true I've DM to just pause the Tweet though is he saying we're figuring out a way to make Tron whatever the rest of them are blah blah blah holders hall or is he saying they're playing together a solution to create all of FTX um relief basically

because it's his first time I announcement to stand behind all Tron token holders Tron BTT jst Sun HT holders on FTX we are putting together a solution forward with FTX to initiate a pathway forward so like I don't know why is he just saying like we're figuring out with them how to make our own bags good I don't know why SPF would retweet that if it was just about Tron and TRX it only makes sense under the context that Tron and Justin sun is helping FTX does it I don't even know anymore with SPF man uh I don't I don't think Sam's got control of his Twitter account anymore uh I think that is that is the hands of Crisis management team yeah

crisis management do you think Sam had an emergency escape patch plan there's my question is is SPF On The Run just like everyone else of 2022. it would be on things this industry's freaking nuts like so does mine Ledger like she was just talking about this so she's like is it dead this time yeah how are you guys's wives lately I think sits weird enough that y'all call me Ledger and that they call someone named Jordan Kobe and like she's like what who who and why do y'all do that and then now I'm like well this guy is on the run and he came on the podcast and this guy you definitely know my wife works in the medical field and like she

hates scarlet and she's like and I was she watched the show for the first time ever for to see that clip um and yeah it's like it's Mayhem I ran into some people Pat how are you doing today and I'm like I'm all right my industry blew up a little bit over the last 72 hours I got a little bit I got totally rugged in terms of what I thought was true and what was actually true um look it's embarrassing it is it's insane like we live in absolute La La Land of Total Insanity where the stakes are billions of dollars that very few people can comprehend even the people within the industry apparently even the people

that are supposed to be the leaders are freaking morons like taking extraordinary risk the same risks that gains he takes you know they gave smarter than them I would put Kobe in charge of crypto like just Capital C crypto country Kobe can be in charge and he's just a degenerate Gambler that's been doing it since 2013 and survived it's like this survival bias survivorship bias so he was damn good at it he's lived through all this out and I'm like put the guy in charge like at least I don't think he's going to rug everything and steal it all that's what I find insane I don't know if you read the multicline investor letter but they said they had access to the FTX Q2

balance sheet information as part of their ongoing due diligence um and they still lost like what 20 of assets like assets under management on the exchange so like can they not read a balance sheet or was the balance sheet wrong like was it like fictional doctored I think not reading a balance sheet is definitely something to be considered that's definitely a possibility yeah like maybe right but if you then write in your investor oh we did the due diligence we looked at like the Q2 books and then investors go look at the Q2 bucks as a gigantic hole it's not gonna look great um but it makes me wonder like were they giving

incorrect books or did the problem happen afterwards did the books actually look fine in Q2 um I don't know and if you can have like in in the proper Insider information and do like Insider due diligence on FTX bucks and still get rugged by FTX um I mean that's kind of crazy um Kobe did you see that Sam said did come on up only yeah this was on November 7th he said he'd come on upon me forever ago well that was that was before uh basically FTX went to zero I think he was he was interested in talking to CZ because he was real real interested in bending the knees before he actually you know was exposed naked yeah he was

saying he'd come on up only you know he's willing to talk saying basically we're not even acknowledging these rumors anymore back to business from the FTX account and it was all a sham in the background he's trying to raise six billion dollars to cover the hole Yeah yeah and then like he's he said to us we got planned to a group chat with him after he said he'd come on um and he was like yeah cool we'll do it today on November 7th maybe November on November 7th or 8th and then we were like great cool we'll do it this time I'll like wake up on time and then we like get to it and it's like oh we're actually gonna have to push it back and then was like the radio silence right it's like right down to the line

they were just like like lying about it I'm like oh yeah we're just it's gonna be fine it's gonna be fine I'll go do a podcast and say how everything's fine well that's on the theme with 2022 like everyone is like that up until the moment where everyone realizes that you all have to like show confidence until the very last moment I mean but to your to your point Kobe like so um I I just looked at the day um a few hours ago because I couldn't believe it but it's only 11 days ago that Voorhees and SBF had this debate in SPF was lecturing the crypto industry on regulation yeah he did a speech in Congress or in I

don't know where you go sit in the wooden bit working the government you know like they're in like a circle and you're sat there you did that um and he did a speech about how like the financial crisis couldn't have happened because they were like borrowing and like you know re-borrowing and blah blah blah whereas everything on FDX is like that couldn't happen on FTX and that was last year literally in Congress like you just went and sat there and either a lied to Congress about um all the [ __ ] or all the problems happened afterwards um and maybe maybe it's just like me being naive again and being like why would you go sit in Congress and like intentionally

tell lies to like your government um if you just knew they were false it must have happened later on but man we we saw the same thing with uh oh I just uploaded uh that sound just went straight to the stream we just saw the same thing with uh three hours Capital where they were like um uh super confident and trying to trying to talk about how like you know a few more liquidations than up only uh and then that was them right and so it's just an insane amount of projection that they have to produce that they have to give because they have to give confidence right we saw this with with Alameda the CEO saying like oh yeah

we'll buy all the ftt tokens at 22 you have to produce confidence uh and so it's just like an insane amount of projection that's like required because that's like one of the last bits of ammo that they have left to shoot yeah I'm uh I'm reading this uh this multi-coin um this this multi-coin letter so how down bad is multi-coin right now they so they had uh it was like what 10 of assets under management were affected we're on FTX yeah but then you got to think about a Solana steak the FDX stake the soul coins like the the general thesis was like some coins right I saw the actual letter but then the

blog post is basically the exact same thing as the letter like the block the the one on the on the Block is accurate um so it should say what the added stuff is but in terms of percentage of everything I wouldn't call them wrecked but like their steak and Solana I mean they haven't sold enough of it for that to not be wrecked it's down tremendously is it crazy to you guys like I you know all of the crypto gods of 2021 I mean I think of like the the main ones like it was it was suzu Carl Davies it was three hours Capital right and then it was like uh dokwon right and like uh definitely Kyle samani multi-coin like fun of the funny sister Danny says favorite God that was earlier this year

that he felt but yeah he was a he was a God in 20 uh 21. um but even people like Andre cronyier right I mean he's still kind of active and Phantom all of these things uh to sponsor up only now too really take it and then and then and then the last one kind of standing was SPF and um I mean where are they now like are there any Gods from 2021 still standing Justin's son you know he was a god before God he was God yeah he's one of the old gods yeah the new gods are dead New Gods are dead when did private stop um 2019

5 Edge is kind of like casually chilling running a [ __ ] exchange with no kyc just like staying out of the news Cycles I don't even know what like what is by bit I don't even know what that is it's just like FTX except it's like yellow instead of blue and it's just no not like registered anywhere no no identity text no mlkyc no roads I think it was like two two hundred grand 200 Grand a day if you don't have KFC or something um I don't know I didn't use it because it seemed like kind of dodgy and then um they did a bunch of uh like token launches with like you know

like the moon Carl um they helped him launch a token called Caster um which like launched all-time high was on day one and it's just a straight line downwards ever since like it's never made it's just like actually just like a a graph of a straight line diamonds um trying to like figure out what the worst thing in exchange has done if that's the worst [ __ ] they've done maybe they're all right maybe they're one of the better ones I I do wonder if um like where do you go now right like FTX at least had the best user experience in my opinion from like the um website and app point of view not from the like you don't have any real

money there point of view is that user experience is very bad um but yeah that's that's the problem binance I find really confusing um coinbase um is like really slow and um like I appreciate coinbase at this point like at this point for some reason I feel like some sort of like patriotism about coinbase well I've also they have been trying to do cool stuff recently in the last like I guess yeah I'm like more so I think they lost their way a little bit 20 20 21. it kept yeah raising their fees on the platform where everyone else was lowering them and like they were not feeding the product that was good for Traders right which was coinbase Pro

um they just were doing things that weren't connected to the community my critique on coinbase is they hired a ton of normies to run a crypto business because they had to because they had to scale so goddamn fast and they weren't there weren't enough crypto natives to hire and they needed to hire faster than they could find crypto native so they hired a bunch of normies and like you you can't make normies care about crypto so you can't make normies care about their jobs so they get that piece but but how come how come FTX moves so quickly quickly on things I was attracted because they were spending all customer deposits they had a bigger budget yeah I was I was attracted to platforms and that's why I liked blockfolio when they reached out and wanted to figure out a way to

work with them we got rugged on that like blockfolio became FTX app became FTA so we we really didn't opt into FTX it just became impossible to say what is the FTX app even but nevertheless um yeah the hilarious thing is we're actually sponsored by FTX us that's our real contract so like a real contract is block folio Inc right which is that's right I believe so it's owned by fjx yeah I don't know I'll ask Brett who knows up only did not rug anyone FTX us is completely solvent but right the reason I know for real Ed come back

uh so the the thing that I liked about it was I could tell a normal person in my life like how do you DCA into crypto right and yeah recommend this way that's not got crazy fees when you're trying to do it um that gives you a reasonable way to swap in and out of Majors doesn't have every [ __ ] coin uh available right away is not 100x leverage I asked Sam and CZ the time we did one versus I mean what a stream I had technical issues naturally but like just in in the concept of that and like my biggest question for them is why is your default leverage 20x it's [ __ ] like that is wrong I think it

was 100x then I think the default was 20x and both of them were like it shouldn't be and yet there it was and I don't want to tell a regular person to go to this platform where that's the default that's on by default you're at this tremendous risk and I liked the like Simplicity of connect your bank to an app get it easily have a Robin Robin Hood like experience if you will where the money goes in you do normal things and Robin Hood not they do it well like they can buy weekly options without being accredited uh but it's just it's just insane like make this stuff simpler for just onboarding people to products that aren't Gonna Make You destitute from your bad gambling habits uh yeah I

think that's why I I where I think coinbase lost their way a bit around their IPO was that they seem to start making decisions that were based on the share price rather than decisions based on like the previous coinbase ethos um and I think maybe they've gone back to it a bit now like they've like launched some tokens for the first time they've launched like coinbase East which is like a wrapped staked East um like erc20 which is I think the first token they've ever launched um and they did like d flat D5 front ends all within coinbase right so you can interact with any D5 with that's some that's some real Innovation the MPC wallet multi-party computation that's some really cool [ __ ]

that I think a lot of people don't appreciate yeah um but um for a little while in the middle of last year or maybe even this year they were just like releasing like bottom of the barrel [ __ ] lines that you wouldn't even find on binets right like really really like uh let's go coinbase Ventures backed uh that doesn't exist anywhere else but here it is the liquid Marketplace here's a token you've never heard of before yeah well I mean it's hard because like um we need a Fiat on-ramp like we need a crypto exchange at crypto Bank in order to actually like start doing this I

think I think like one thing that's obviously I don't know we've learned this a number of times this year but it's just not leaving your funds on an exchange yeah right to actually go bankless yeah to actually and that's look that's a that's a thing that um I mean I know we learned like Mount gox long time ago but it's just like 2022 has just been that's been hammered into this generation's head like all of the things that have happened we know not to leave our funds on an exchange right um but but well but that's the other thing is um I do think that you know crypto hasn't done a good enough job making the

user experience easy so I still can't tell a norm back to your comment of like Ledger a normie getting into crypto you can't be like freaking like and here's a wallet and here's you know uh by this Hardware wallet you know 24 words and if you remember them if you forget them you're dead you lose all of your money like yeah the user experience just hasn't really caught up Chrome those metamask Chrome Ledger Converse uh combo has been rugging me for like a year in a row now really he knows a lot better you know the wallet that impresses me continuously small it's crappy uh maybe good maybe not but from a user experience perspective is Rainbow wallet yeah

um yeah I'm talking with Mike mcdermis next week yeah you need like look you need to be able to it may not be everybody's preferred thing but you back up your uh wallet to like an iCloud type service or something and you you've uh do the face thing for your authentication and like you're you're rocking and you're rolling maybe that's your hot wallet maybe you have another way that's more secure whatever whatever like but you need it as easy as some of your mobile apps but you have the self-custody components still involved and I just think they make things easy that it gets hard at times and then you're like having to import your Rainbow wallet to metamask and you know so that you can do a transaction with say not to cancel the transaction blah

blah blah but it's we need more apps that are trying that right that are really trying to be consumer level so deep irony is if you stored your coins on FDX you lost them no your keys no other coins if you start them in a hot wallet you got your board ape stolen by someone sending you a link on Discord if you bought a hardware wallet delete your address to the entire internet so now people can come steal your Hardware wallet and beat you up like there is no good path the best person to just stick everything on binance and go yeah whatever they're the biggest exchange if they go down it's all dead anyway

um so I they really wasn't like a good thing and like didn't both Hardware wallets have data breaches or something went wrong with both uh with treasure too this is I don't know this is where the horcrux method becomes mandatory what's that yeah spray and pray your assets across a number of different uh like centralized oh yeah put it put it in coinbase put it on your Legend seven Souls seven places did you not read the books come on man you put a lightning bolt on your head and you're like every kid at the movies laughs Ryan were you ever Harry Potter for

Halloween uh I was never Harry Potter for Halloween yeah another glasses um I'm sad that the legend before I realized it yeah Legend you've become bit boy his glasses broke nice glasses Harry Potter oh man he did apologize for that thanks thanks well we kind of made him yeah that was the whole purpose of that the staple I come to bank list and say sorry maybe it's cracking maybe kraken's like the last um The Last Hope like they always just seem to be in the background chilling

trying to do the right thing they have like the only massive exchange with proof of reserves um like Merkle tree cryptographic proof reserves um well they seem like generally very misaligned I know um Jay power just left um as he remains like an advisor or something but um you know they seem decent I mean that's just like uh Kraken Gemini binance coinbase okay coin oh I didn't even know it gets it gets off of my I'm too too far off the Donald list of the long tail are we worried about the Winkle the the like and the travel traveling band I don't I haven't seen their band

playing it in a while though yeah on Instagram yeah I didn't actually see it yeah they're in New York [Laughter] for like college kids at least they're not in DC lying to Congress yeah even larger enemy okay the thing is right if if you had like a decent actor go to DC and try and mediate things

I'm sure that is a better strategy than like [ __ ] nothing right no one in the industry talks to them we all just try and hide surely a good actor who is being sensible and fighting for the right type of like stuff that the industry needs is a good thing but the worst possible outcome is that the person doing it taking photos with them like taking photos of the head of the cftc and like members of Congress and all this [ __ ] then turns out to be running a Ponzi scheme exchange now they all go this guy made me look stupid at my job so we must crush him in return we can't look they like we accepted money from him we can't look like weak and corrupt

we now need to like retaliate severely yep surely that's significantly worse than just doing nothing I mean guys he donated 70 million dollars to political campaigns customer deposits yeah of customers closets it may be more than that you know right Ryan Ryan who apparently was left in the dark and all this Ryan's salaam or however you pronounce it celkis are you talking about it no no no no no no no number two at FTS be like just think of Sam think of the absolute opposite and that's Ryan so I'm getting an IV as a hangover cure

and okay in Miami like a like frat boy type of guy okay all right um apparently he was left in the dark and all this but he was profiled as well as Sam because his spouse is running ran for congress I don't know if she won or not um but he donated like 25 million dollars to Republican causes he was like a top five Republican donor while Sam was a number two or whatever Democratic donor they're both from FTX they both like whether Ryan I don't it doesn't appear that Ryan is care it really seems like a very small number of people at FTX were aware of this like I've had employees reach out to me like I'm in the dark they're helping me with support tickets for people trying to get money off FTX

us because it's crazy but Ryan was also a large contributor to Republican because they were some of the biggest players in this world of politicians giving money on both sides it's it's not good all right let me ask you guys like a crazy like uh Joe Rogan type of question here it's like what are the chances that you do a Joe Rogan voice yeah I can't do it Joe Rogan voice up what are the chances that this like SPF was a plant I mean all this to your point Kobe seemed like so scripted all right like this whole industry is

crypted they were all in the simulation where did he come from I mean he rises from nowhere 2018 2019 builds did come from nowhere the fastest growing Exchange in the world how how did he go from zero to what like 22 billion dollars how did that happen how did he infiltrate DC and become like the spokesperson for [ __ ] for crypto and D5 right and now after he's earned the trust of all the politicians the whole thing turns out to be smoke and mirrors right like industry wrecked like I I don't know what happens in the wake of this is there like any chance in your in your minds that there's something something the only thing that adds credibility to

it is these parents are like deeply right he turbo his parents yeah and like his mom like created like some like get out to vote Coalition or some [ __ ] um which means his mum's Hillary Clinton and you know like I I think it's like probably not true but I thought that God it was probably not true that they were insolvent so what is reality anymore the chat is convinces uh CIA so I think it's much more likely that he had a really fast growing exchange okay okay okay maybe it's this

he had an exchange it was really fast growing totally by like a mix of like luck and aggression like you know if you're willing to trade customer deposits maybe you're willing to be a bit more aggressive on stuff that other people aren't and like that sort of insanity or psychopathy um translates into like business success um at some point you [ __ ] up and had this hole in the balance sheet but like you can't tell your parents can you they'll be so disappointed but they're [ __ ] up really badly so he's like political Elite parents are going like you should go to Congress and you should talk you should donate to these guys you should donate to these guys yeah they were telling them crypto in the first place yeah like yes Mom yes Dad I'll definitely do that and like in the back

of his mind it's like [ __ ] I like well all he wants to do is make his parents proud you just can't tell them that he's got and that's why it's snowballed out of control because he was he was mommy issues how old do you think SPF is it's possible he's under 30 right like 20 must be about 30. he's exactly 30 years old he's born in March 1992. um how old is vitalik like 28. did you see the tweet that metallic posted it made me so sad so he like um replied to someone like sbf's net worth plummeting to like one billion dollars yeah and vitalik replied and just said that is much more than that is still

much more than I have and that was the only words of the tweet and I was like 95 to a billion dollars one billion dollars great this is SPF not because I don't really know what effective altruism means but I feel like vitalik embodies that much more yeah effective altruism means I've read the book I read the book when I was in university or maybe after University went in my early 20s or something um and parts of it are like extremely enticing and I could understand the attraction to the book right because it tells you stories about um uh certain charity initiatives throughout history that were basically

completely ineffective and it gives the example of something called the water wheel which was a apparently in the Bush Administration ERA this huge um uh uh popular initiative to like help um like poor countries in parts of Africa have access to clean water um and they went and they removed loads of these hand pumps these water hand pumps and they put these like um like these big wheels that you push around in um but it turned out if you pushed the wheel constantly for 24 hours you got about 18 hours worth of water because this wheel was like completely ineffective and um like like they hated using this wheel

it was like demoralizing and degrading it was like a like a playground item to push around um but all of the uh like I think it was the first lady was like all in on this initiative going and like taking photos with these water wheels saying look we're saving um we're saving the poor countries like America round yes song the chapter said we're saving the poor countries but in practice they were just burning money making things worse and not helping and that was an example of like ineffective altruism where people get excited by how by the cause of like I'm going to look so great solving this problem that like is emotional and another example is like plastic in the ocean where it's everyone's favorite topic so so there's

so much money being poured into it that it becomes like used ineffectively and the most effective like reduction of suffering was really unsexy stuff like deworming of children um in like parts of the world where like if you dewormed kids uh like like there was a 50 increase in people classic passing school and then that policy paid for itself within three years because the tax dollars from the people that were going to the workforce from this initiative would then pay itself off um and there's this buck that like kind of says so you should focus on like impact with with doing good you shouldn't focus on what feels good you should focus on like actual reduction of

suffering but the book The the book gets a little bit strange in that will ask her the guy who writes it uses this like logic to go into the argument that actually therefore the best way you can reduce suffering is to go work at Goldman Sachs steal everyone's money and use that money in the most effective ways for reducing human suffering because if you go work a charity you're doing a small amount whereas if you steal or if you acquire multi-billions and then use them really effectively you're actually reducing human suffering by a lot more with your life with your like um with your time because you're good at

making money in Wall Street exactly you make money and then you use that really effectively chapter on not blowing up in the process and yeah and like that is a that's exactly what that's the Playbook SPF read this book and was ignored all the bits about like human suffering and was like okay gotta make 30 billion dollars um reduce human suffering by stealing everyone's money great let's go um but genuinely it's it's it's quite a good book um the uh the whole effect of altruism was like Guillotine insurance it's like oh yeah you just liquidated all of the industry but you have this Banner of

effective are you talking about you're talking about for SPF yeah yeah you're not talking about like like speaking effective altruism like conceptually I'm I'm like a big fan I mean that makes sense well it got SBS podcast deworming like Yeah well yeah yeah I I refuse I refuse to accept that process doesn't matter right like I think like how you make the money do you mean yes I think process matters if you say like there's a like Biblical reference if you give someone a dollar and what do they do with it you give someone a hundred dollars or a thousand dollars what do they do with it shekels or something but

you know what I'm saying like what you do with the dollar is going to reflect what you're going to do with a thousand of them or a million of them and if you say like I will do good work just give me lots and lots of money in whatever way is possible and then I'll do good with it you you need to do good along the way you need to show that you can be responsible with the resources that you've been um entrusted with along the way to then be entrusted with the resources when they're larger I refuse to believe that just get it all while it's hot in whatever way possible and then do good later you just won't yeah yeah yeah yeah no I like that a lot

yeah I do agree I do agree that it is like he sort of I think he read this book called doing good better and then sort of used it as a shield as like I can't be evil because look at what I'm doing on the other side and like took the like most perverted just like the most perverted way you can read the book and go okay that makes me a good person that justifies the stuff I'm doing because that buck says it's the like best way to reduce human suffering or whatever um I reckon uh the dude that wrote that box in complete shambles he's like his life life's work it's like been made of mockery I mean as specifically because of SPF he's his personal advisor for a bit oh

wow you know the dude that was texting Elon on his behalf was the dude who wrote the book so like SBF was a poster child for the effective altruism movement but every article was about that's like the whole PR strategy was effective also yeah and I mean anything that was like actually decent in that book is just like wrecked Now by association I think David was uh you were always skeptical and I see yeah I was like all right like I used to be like but like but like he he hasn't said he'd do it right now he's still in kind of the phase Kobe you were talking about earlier where he's like like at Goldman Sachs making all the money right and I'm like David you can't you can't call him out on not giving it away yet because it's always been a strategy to make the

most money possible and then to give it away later right super convenient like process to go back to to letters point is like yeah you you need to do good with one dollar and then do good with ten dollars and then do good with 100 because you get you get to pre-mind all the glory right when we were talking about this on the weekly roll up I was like yeah I also plan to commit to not give away 99.9 of my wealth like I will also do that [Laughter] [Music] did this he's like he didn't didn't laugh about it in advance like in Infinity he actually did it he actually he actually did that

well you don't remember it was a couple years ago he transferred like half of his wealth into an entity that would oh yeah right grants away and he picked the causes and there's like a API that you can or an RSS feed or something you can pull you know if you go look at it just every few days he's like we gave two two million dollars here we gave two million dollars here and like they're all they all look great this is the cards about all the time you put it on posters around this is the cardano problem right like Jack just did it it was news for a day and then it was done the cardano thing is like yeah we're gonna have Smart contracts we're gonna have Smart contract we're gonna have Smart we're gonna have Smart contracts and then it's like so disappointing if and when they

ever occur right but you talked about it all that time you implanted it yeah the person that just does it it's forgotten right like you said that I had to be reminded that Jack was just actually you're right it's kind of the way it should be but by the way speaking of Charles uh you know he popped up in my timeline earlier today I'm so sorry yeah he said this this is his comments on things um just on some twid uh some thread criticizing SPF and um somebody tweets out and he says uh at least you found the real villain before you can give uh Charles Hodgkin's in credit for being actual good billionaire calling Charles an actual good billionaire and Charles jumps in it's really amazing the

level of bile and criticism that I've gotten throughout the years been almost 10 years waiting on the great Charles Hoskins and criminal Scandal but please tell me all about Laura's new book you know for Charles it's always uh it's always about Charles it's always about Charles I don't know I didn't no one expected a child's criminal Scandal did they no because that would mean that he would actually do something well I mean he does things David they had a great booth in fact this is an official statement from huobi um that they will help TRX holders on FTX with one to one can anyone find this TRX orders apparently well from this oh thank God the TRX holders get bailed

out fantastic wait wait TRX holders Tron holders isn't that if you have CRX on SPF all right sorry abbreviation RSA um I can't see any official statement about it but uh is that the thing is that the thing that um Justin's son was I'm excited about oh my God have you seen the picture of Justin's son's face Photoshop front of Superman saving a baby um that was posted by the Hawaii Exchange in response to Justin Justin created it Justin Justin's own exchange was he was

like put my face on and the baby oh he's not a baby it's like a toddler or something but the toddler looks really uncomfortable you gotta admit in terms of interviews we've done we've never given we've never given somebody so much direct heat and they just roll with it and he's like Justin's son yeah yeah and then you guys that talk to Justin's son yeah he was amazing yeah he was incredible incredible amazing Kobe was like he was confronting him about sleeping with someone's wife or something like that and he just said something how did you know about this no no there was a saga and it was the May 2021 crash where there was this rumor that they were

trying to liquidate someone was trying to liquidate Justin sun and chain because he'd slept with their wife so it was like some crypto whale's wife and so with Justin son or something this is rumor it was like obviously just like a meme rumor that someone come up with um but he came on and we like asked him about it quite early on in the show and he was just like laughing and was like yeah it's true yeah I can't tell you how wired head written wired had written this like 10 000 word article some journalists spent two months on this and just his son quote tweets it and it's like LOL he just it's the full Embrace of the stupidity of our space and he just makes

billions guys I remember Vincent ethereum clone makes billions keeps his billions 20 in 2018 I thought like Justin's son was like the peak scammer like they were a scammer this industry and now I'm looking at any scammer of this yeah and I'm like this guy I mean he seems like like an angel no one no one truly hates him and I I think it's not just because it was like like if like the time the the time since your transgression is long enough people don't care right like CZ was the biggest villain in crypto for such a long time in like it's the victim of my day it's the victimless crime totally yeah well CZ and Justin Sun were working together like kind of in the in the back alley to

do token promotion stuff on binance right like the Tron white paper was like parts of it was just copy pasted of the ethereum white paper the ipfs outside yeah yeah um and you know like did an Ico raise billion dollars or however many however much um and then just chilled but because like he's now just chilling and having a nice time people just go oh that was ages ago he doesn't need to scammers anymore and he's kind of entertaining he's like well he's we've also completely redefined to a much worse degree what a scammer is like the scammers have gotten worse they've got they've gotten worse yeah yeah yeah well is it isn't isn't Justin's son like he's

like a huge like whale right I mean he's like he's like 10x still subscribed to his wallet I'm gonna find it right all right doesn't he like rumor is okay sorry Ryan how old do you think Justin sun is um I'm looking at the Superman photo he's looking pretty pretty good pretty young I'm gonna I'm also gonna say uh 30. oh is he is he 30 yeah 30. he's 32 32. the oldest one I've mentioned so far also right like he yeah he did like uh he did an ICA for some chain which is just an ethereum clone and it's not super um like no remarkably interesting to me it's a copy pasted white like the white

paper was copy pasted the chain was copy pasted the whole thing yeah but then like you know they moved to proof of stake and did a bunch of stuff and then their fees are always insanely low he kept working it this whole time and now it's like the biggest chain for like tether or something it's like the biggest chain for like USD payments so they actually carved out a niche and create a bunch of values and it's like well you know yeah if you build something of value even if the beginnings of it were not um incredibly honorable people forget is that actually a scam yeah it kind of grew into legitimacy he uh his default his main defy wallet it only has like 250 million in it now but it had like a billion plus two billion three bucks it doesn't doesn't he have more

Ethan vitalik yes he does oh yeah he's he's unbelievably more Ethan vitalik multi-billionaire well because the talk only gives away money he doesn't earn anymore Justin's a multi-billionaire on such a pretty mine well just on channel So Justin's also quite good at trading I don't know if you like followed his like like macro directional stuff but he generally buys the body and sells close to the top um like he sold all of his ethereum at like four four um around this time last year yeah that'd be nice I don't know is the first time I've actually bought bottoms well you don't know this is about it yeah yeah I bought I bought it eight

eight seven eight ninety seven I feel pretty damn good about that that's not bad so um yeah Justin Justin was came on the show and he was talking about his D5 movements and his location he's like oh I was actually asleep when that was going on I was like well you had a thousand dollar margin at risk because he was like farming crap left and right he's like yeah that's when I hired somebody to actually make sure that I'm like managing stuff because before that it was just managing billions on like Leverage defy yield Farms YOLO and the crap out of the whole thing so fun fact uh Tron is now worth more than Solana that makes me sad really that makes me sad good deal for Solana I mean what's

the price I have I am now bucks uh chill with Solana where previously I was less not no tron's number 16 slams number 13. FTV or not I'm on uh coin gecko sorry guys I'm I'm Boomer Queen prices holy crap in three and a half four and a half hours uh low of 11 46 to 15 12 11. 11. where are you looking I don't know let me see that it's kind of crazy that Tron and BNB are also based on the same tanks yeah I have to change all my trading hours they're all FTX anymore they're it's literally fake fake Internet money over there screw you

Sam like honestly you gotta make me change my trading views well Industries has to re reconfigure itself uh trading view come on make the indexes we need more indexes uh Solana gonna get hit harder I think some unlocks coming yeah on the Pike too I don't know somebody came in and did like they changed some delegator thing today did they wasn't okay so when when three hours Capital got liquidated that was the bottom like it was the bottom within like 24 to 48 hours of the big news like spreading throughout crypto Twitter and everyone uh being worried about contagion oh contagion's coming contagion coming turns out now the bottom was right then and there so like that's if we're gonna repeat that like

I'm not a Trader but like my gutake is that the bottom of the prices is going to be happening the day of the worst news which is FTX being insolvent that's my quick day don't tell me you're not a Trader you I I gotta go to our direct messages trustless is he giving you trading I was good trading on the way up Tuesday one of my most severe regrets because at the time I actually had a bunch of money on binance us where manic existed right and my DM February 15 2021 I do not want to time stamp the price all caps Matic and I was like screw you here's it 20 cents at the

moment or I think even like 11. it was 11 cents I stopped out at 10 cents I was like all right David let's roll baby stop out at 10 cents goes two dollars I was really mad at you sorry buddy yeah anyway I forget what I was trying to bring up there and bring back pain David uh you are a Trader man you called the um you called a Solana bottom I think on our Tuesday live streaming God I did that doesn't sound like me yeah I just I I re-listened to that part of the episode good for me the problem was what's in the bottom

[Laughter] problem with Solana is that you still have all these like liquidity issues people that can always fall back on what they have vesting in swanna to just get rid of it and you have the three dollar I'll buy all you want mean right which is strong right right it really those those things look they got to be magnets right totally and I think so I think Solana is like very well positioned to be The Ether of the last cycle because like 8th of last cycle had all this Ico cell pressure like at a mountain of Ico cell pressure never never mind consensus and Joe Lubin and that's Solana of this cycle where they

have all of the insane investor lockups and just the dumpage from FTX and all the associated three dollars this is exactly 99 off the top and you know that's going to be juicy in some ways you've got to imagine that um the Solana Founders feel very Bittersweet about this FTX stuff because obviously they you know it's horrible for the industry and um like bad for them reputationally because Solana was kind of like the Sam coin the Sam coin that enabled all other Sam coins um in a way it was the uh like Sam was sort of the poster boy for Solana yeah the OG Sim coin

but at the same time the removal of that narrative can only be good for Solana in the future right like right yes if you're in three years and like you still have FTX looming overview as Sam leaning over you as the like the biggest thing about your chain yeah this just like removes it as a problem for them and sure maybe there's a lot of FDX owned Solana that needs to get sold and maybe it was you know all that stuff and there's maybe ongoing um reputational damage but at least it's like out of the way it's behind you and you can move on and like Solana can do its own thing and like try and build its own sort of um future without being

like cross-pollinated with FTX and sound SPF stuff one of the biggest bits of fight of Seoul is the concentrated ownership by all the VCS so if we can get it out of their hands it's the same thing as like ether back with all the concentrated Ico ownership what what has what has more multiples upside with eth-like development mode then Solana especially if you get it three bucks right three to Thirty is a 10x that's that's that's a thousand to ten thousand dollar each where we're gonna be like our eyeballs are gonna be bleeding all four of us if Keith goes to ten thousand like we're just gonna be unbelievably

euphoric so okay so two thousand so that's Solana three to three three to Thirty is the same thing so when you're looking at that relative pair if you get three dollars you just you just Buckle in and you buy Solana at three dollars right I don't I don't so uh when ether capitulated down to eighty dollars that was a eight billion dollar market cap for ethereum Solana right now is at a five and a half billion dollar market cap I touched five earlier today uh so we're already like if you want to compare these things uh one cycle apart like we're all right this one is almost like half of what ether was last cycle I'm not saying that's a lot of potential yeah it's highs of life cycle and much

higher than Salinas highs of this cycle though right like if if life cycle went crazy because of the Ico stuff but it was like very deeply used for something and it was used for something for the first time and like maybe that thing was an illegal fundraising platform but it was like there's product Market fit for smart contract chains here to do something um whereas um by the proof of proving point for Solana is like what the price went up a lot and like I mean personally for like for me I I've never been uh bullish on Solana like probably you know to my uh like uh you know would have been nice to buy three but um there is a price at which I am

bullish on Solana but for me it's not this for me it's closer to three no it's not 15. it's closer to three like so right now Solana 2 another way to look at it is it's off 94 for all time high which is basically what eth traced last uh yeah last cycle right down uh 94 I still think it's got a ways to draw it before this is fully washed out there's a big yellow box on my chart from three to four which was the high of uh 22 September 2020.

yeah it's basically the whole Gap up from Sam coin Fame yeah I mean that I mean that really propelled it that was Rocket Fuel and so we gotta go we gotta go back so we have to go back we gotta go back before we can go forward yeah I think it's the coin of Last Resort for too many people still I think that's fair I do agree though David like you know it does have an ecosystem of Builders right there is a real Community there that's Network effects Network effects the most powerful thing in crypto Bitcoins actually draining Network effects right now and eth and Solana are building them Salon is building them faster than eth is the dominant has the dominant Network effects in the

ecosystem dude Bitcoin Bitcoin Community is divided once again bitcoin's got big problems man Bitcoin has got big problems that's for sure yeah yeah we've all got big problems ethereum D5 for all of 2022 has felt like the world is just ripping apart around me and me and all my little eth friends are on this tiny little like Oasis like watching an ethereum defile Oasis and Oasis we went straight downwards for the previous like two and a half years well yeah but everything else broke Kobe like everything else

you're talking about defy token price which is no no no I'm talking about just like The Ether that I have in the apps that I have it in it's like yeah the price is going down but they're still functioning as designed meanwhile Solana is halting meanwhile FTX is insolvent meanwhile three arrows Capital like nuked everything and so like yeah like we're down bad in correlation with the market but like I still have my ether if you get David drunk enough you're the only person I know that says ether I've been saying ether since 81 yeah but you are right I am I'm one of the few people that says that yeah I say it too it surprises me that eth is down relative to BTC this week like it it doesn't feel that way because just

the relative price of bitcoin's been dancing in the 1516 case and eth is over a thousand dollars it just feels stronger but it's actually down on the week I feel like if we were back in last cycle uh the the fact that each BTC is performing so well is very indicative strength yeah yeah exactly eth is down 76 percent uh all-time high Bitcoin is down uh 77 that is insane I mean it makes sense now because I I believe in ethereum's fundamentals but like if you compared this to last cycle that that was unheard of Kobe's in his mind drafting tweets from this Bitcoin Maxi alt account are you still a Believer Max the whole

account for a while I've got 100 000 followers now it's my favorite thing to write on I'm beloved I'm beloved in my community somebody Kobe who was it who was it that did the Tweet of like Kobe wakes up and picks up his mask for the day and puts it on like it's the truest tweet I've ever seen of you you know for a little while I'd uh um oh like a lawyer account where I was commenting on the giant app Amber Heard defamation lawsuit just making stuff up got quite a lot of followers on that one as well I mean Twitter's um I don't know man like I think I think like this whole like whoa is Solana the good bet for next cycle is

like like how's everything doing etc etc et cetera it's just decisions you don't need to make now like you can think about it now if you're bored like like if you want to spend your time thinking about that stuff and make a plan for however long in the future um like fair enough but I think just like reevaluate it when the time is right like I think in the last two three years the optimal strategy was like find a thing that's going up the most and Chase it okay like okay so Mike seems to go up quite a lot Solana seems to go quite a lot and then it just kept it kept out performing everything for the entire cycle and then it was over and then there was some stuff that didn't go up very much and it

underperformed and it underperformed the entire cycle and like you probably couldn't have guessed what they were three years prior to that um so just like wait and see so much stuff can change between now and then um and you know and stuff therapy I heard they have a lot had a had a significant percentage of money on uh FTX are we I think they both discredited that rumor both uh there's a good rumor though you probably started that um you can imagine this Kobe starting and ending rumors with his own alts that Caroline used to date Sam

it spread like [ __ ] wildfire and then someone said it in a group chat and I was like no let's not try I made it up and then someone was by no actually is true and then actually just turned out to actually be real yeah that's amazing Jesus Kobe just opens up Pandora's Box and can't get the rumors back in how many uh how many months of winter did SBF set us back I love 20 23 months all of 2023 all of 2023. well I mean months can be I mean more than 10. yeah it could be more than 12. oh you could I think it's quiet but I think it's probably several years

several several years you're talking about 24 months I'm I'm asking specifically what SPF you think added to the crypto winter yeah yeah seventh edition oh added several years oh yeah yeah I am he he was he was the poster boy of Trad yeah like the DC crypto moving even if he wasn't like you know the person um uh like pushing for that he'd sort of become this like he'll be the most recognizable crypto face to a lot of

um uh politicians Regulators uh Etc I think um and he went and blatantly lied to their face um it seems or told them um yeah like told them something and then like had the same problems later and made the same mistakes later like or just lie to their face let's go with the lie to their face um as he did to everyone else only days ago um but if he lied to their face they won't welcome whoever else with open arms they're not going to go oh these people have like like you know good intentions good faith

um just like discussions with us they're just gonna say like their mindset for several years now if it wasn't already is going to be um these people uh uh I just lying to us and trying to pull the ball over our eyes um and they're not going to care about the distinction between like a centralized exchange operating as a bank and you know a fully transparent um Unchained self-custody um you know protocol that gets exploited yeah they're just not going to care about the difference they're just going to say like that's all the same thing to me that's crypto um and that is very bad and the like the guy that donated hundreds of millions to

us um was also um doing like the worst possible thing um plus if you think about um the amount of people who will have lost money there the amount of people that will have narrowly avoided losing money there um the amount of builders that will have treasuries there so like you know how many projects are secretly dead now because they've lost everything and we don't know yet um how many industry participants will have had a relationship with Alameda and FTX that their business is now significantly worn down they're not going to fix that all these people lose their jobs

um because the their businesses go they go out of business um and the progress you need in uh you know Innovation or like building or Whatever Gets significantly um delayed because of uh because of that um so trust is down like actual progress in the industry um is moved backwards um and not just from like Mount gox being like it's kind of like you use the exchange it feels like it's kind of broken and you know it's like this like overseas thing it's not like you know and then it's operating at a time of like Silk Road being the biggest like Bitcoin app

um so like it makes sense that that goes down it's the Wild West Sam was pretending not to be like the opposite of that he was like we are the people are getting our ship together trying to look I guess as coinbase looks um a little bit but like cozying up maybe more to um uh traditional power structures um so I think it's like uh well probably smaller industry-wide impact than Mount gox um much worse timing and probably much worse knock-on um effects if like an exchange dies really early it's like you know no one knows how to do custody yet people don't know what's going on if it dies like

after 10 years after Mount gox went down um it's uh right I think that trust is harder to repair it's bigger or smaller than a tether itself fell um don't say that oh much smaller no you say that so far yeah and it depends how tether would fall like if it came out that tether had four billion unsecured to Alameda that they can't get back and there's like you know um a five percent I don't know how much the market cap of tether is but let's say there's a five percent haircut on all tether assets or something then um I think that's not the end of the world if it's

like you know oh tether's backed by nothing that like that would obviously be like catastrophically large um several years I think it's several years I have a couple things to add I guess if you know uh if it's several years guys we're all gonna need new sponsors we'll sponsor up only if uh up only sponsors bankless how about that bro we can print free money that way that's circular economy right guys I don't think that's how it works well I know I don't think a lot of this is yeah a lot of people don't know that yeah a couple of things that I think are

just worth noting there is I think the VC Market just went on major ice probably um you know I run a i co-run a startup and uh it's flip dot XYZ Flip Flip XYZ thank God we have Runway right but like we don't have infinite Runway nobody almost nobody has infinite Runway every single company with anywhere from whatever Runway they have three months to 36 months I don't care what it is they're thinking how can we survive

and this is the the the the willingness of the of the VC Market to go take risks at this point in that way is low so you got to figure a whole different dynamic it's all the metrics that you used to think mattered don't matter it's new metrics it's new baselines it's new demands this is not not the startup Market this is this is the money's Market the the money the liquidity is at a premium and that is going to impact projects big and small I mean the way you're way you're

describing this this is um order of magnet and this kind of was hitting me today of how much larger this is than anything we've seen this year um this is bigger than here's Capital yeah in terms of legitimacy for the space yeah I think and those froze those froze the space for months yeah I mean this is bigger than than dokwan's algo stablecoin uh right in additional ranking of criminals dokon actually probably comes with the Bottom now like all he did was build something that made no sense um yeah I was extremely confident Doug was the happy idiot right well maybe maybe maybe right maybe he was very aware it made no sense and was doing a

lot for it in the background who knows but like like it seems like SBS is by far the worst and then three hours is probably the next worst because it's somewhat similar to FTX but without customers I mean spf's going to jail right I mean this is the thing that's going to happen I mean I hope so as well but like I think you deserves politically loyal parents and donate a lot of money to politicians so I think one of the reasons why this is so much worse is that it's just the next one like the one that's after um Terra Luna is going to be worse than Terra Luna that was three hours Capital the one that's after three hours capital is going to be worse and it always Stacks because it's just like another shot to the heart like E2 Brutus like you too Sam uh and so like at this point

we were joking when we started the live stream today it's like it feels like the final season of The Game of Thrones of crypto blow-ups but then my mind goes like all right what could be next I don't see much more but I don't think you know we can really know yet until after the fact did you think after FDX would blow up no no no like if kukai had gone down I would have been like yeah but that's right like who's left after FTX this has to be the final reasons it has to be the final blow up we had Tara Luna we had three AC we had Celsius we had the Michael Taylor's not getting liquidated right he keeps forgetting about them yeah we had the good actors of like block five right like the the ones caught up but significant

now we have FTX we don't know what the hell it is we have the people that are the collateral damage of FTX but FTX in my opinion was the climactic finish of the blow-ups right if if Vitality turns out to be a scammer then I'm just racing oh I'm in space I'm going I'm out I'm going to grad school I mean the chats yelling sailor like saying sailor can get liquidated it's a slow bleed finish like it's a multi-year which could happen right like a crypto winner he can't service the loans I mean but what about tether you were talking about tether uh Ledger do you think that's it's over I mean yeah tethers tether's Mount gox level I don't know but I think that's the access Mount Knox level FTX well but okay here's here's a tweet from um I mean I wasn't here in the

mountain Cox days I came a little bit after but um Dan McArdle was uh he now works at uh Masari started nasari he started massari with selkis a comp uh Mount gox blow up that was 6.5 of market cap total crypto market cap FDX blow up 0.8 percent market cap less than a percent yeah but like you're talking total crypto market cap right which the majority of is fake because that includes like oxy and serum and the bags that Alameda have borrowed against so it's not real like um like it that's what I mean that's what I meant earlier when I said like it's much smaller in terms of scales and mount gox I think the Dow hack was like

30 of all ethereum or something right okay yeah um we don't have we don't have [ __ ] on that scale anymore because funds are way more spread out but the impact of this is going to be I think much bigger than like either the Dow hack or Mount Cox or a bit for next hack or right um there's a lot of intangibles like that's market cap is one thing but legitimacy is legitimacy size is massive is there is there any Silver Lining here are you guys planning to say why are you guys playing are you planning to stick around well like I've been doing this for 10 years mate so I put my identity it's like third of my life what else am I going to do third just a third why so low

well because I'm old as [ __ ] what's the other two-thirds of your life Kobe well the first 10 years I was a kid oh sorry I thought you meant like once I thought you were like yeah you spend one third of your daily time doing crypto I'm like you do two thirds of your time not crypto stuff I mean my entire life um yeah yeah I don't mind like it it it feels to me a little bit like um like my mental model of the crypto industry goes back quite a long way goes like moves backwards in time quite a long way because I like I was always very paranoid and like skeptical of

everything and like every exchange is going to die every coin is going to go to zero um like it's all [ __ ] um the only thing that is important is Bitcoin right like Bitcoin is like this like um almost pure uh thing that has not been like perverted by um Market participants or whatever um and then like ethereum came along and then ethereum was like a legal GoFundMe for 2017. um and I was like I don't know if that feels um super great either surely there can be something more important than just doing a legal fundraisers and then D5 started to kick off and I was like okay cool this is the turning

point for the industry like there's real stuff happening um here like people are building important products that are better than their centralized counterparties right like it's actually a better product um and then these like venues started popping up that I had good user experiences for the first time and they felt like a safe like product to use for the first time and um like actual institutional money was in the space and like backing people that seemed to know what they were doing and my mental model of the crypto industry switched to like oh it's grown up a little bit and not a lot it's still obviously completely stupid but it um it's not the Wild West anymore it's not all just like shambolic

um nonsense and um like whack-a-mole exchange uh life but turns out it's exactly the same in my mind it like like if people are just like printing like fake money borrowing against the fake borrowing real money against fake money stealing user deposits and the exchange dies exactly the same as it did 10 years ago and periodically throughout those 10 years um and the only real difference is now like there are some things that are genuine products that are kind of cool um so I like try and focus on that stuff a lot more um uh to remain optimistic about that stuff like building uh

[Music] um protocols and platforms where like the sensor resistant that allow self-custody um allow you to like own your own stuff rather than having to rent it from um a bank or a crypto bank or whatever um stuff like that is getting built and it's important token prices of it all sucks like the some of the most important and useful things were the worst performers over the last few years um but um those things are kind of cool right and like someone will build or maybe already has built it if it's like dydx or GMX or all those other ones like

versions of FTX that don't require you to give your money to some dude um and um like that stuff's important I think and that stuff uh is will remain interesting and you just got to see how much of that happens because a bull market comes around people forget about that stuff people will stick take shortcuts again and um uh and like like focus on the money rather than like the point of everything um and like every single bear Market I've been through at the around this time one year from the top or two years from the top by the way today's like basically exactly one one year from the top on the

dot um it's one year since Barry tweeted it's gonna be a big week and it was a big week it was the top um but like one year or two years from that every single time it feels like it's [ __ ] it feels like okay it's like there's no coming back from this one like it's it's actually [ __ ] over this time it always feels like that and you feel it like viscerally for a few months um and then it washes out things go sideways for a while the world doesn't explode and um you can start to like people can start to rebuild um so yeah who knows I think my take on on that interpretation of uh this last bull

market is like oh we found some legitimacy and that oh we've discovered defy we just discovered some real things that solve some real problems uh and then the bull market started and then crypto started to like return to its roots and return to what it was familiar with from previous bull cycles which was like fork and fair launch launcher token and just get more get more degenerate right and so we start with legitimacy at the very beginning of a bull market because that's what triggers the bull market in the first place and then as the bull market goes on like the collective IQ just goes lower and lower and lower until we back where we are back in like 2013 where we're just like forking Bitcoin 17 times uh and that's probably maybe if you carry that forward

that's how like the next bull market will start we'll we'll build something real some new Innovations will come we'll build out out through this bear Market uh and then we'll just like go back we'll Benjamin Button it and just go backwards into just like adiq food coins and that'll be the top it's 80 low or higher probably high effort and for next cycle it'll probably be still pretty high yeah Ledger what about you are you gonna stick around you can take your advice your wife's advice and like I don't know I don't know what she's telling you to do if she's like she's okay with me being in this space I don't know if I'm okay with me being in the space really

like has this been pretty like shaking for you it's not just crypto but what we consistently it's life Mom it's life like everyone's an idiot we need rational actors there's no where are the rational actors I don't understand how is there not an adult in the room the adults get crowded out by the children and the children don't deserve the power but they have the power they're the populists they're the um irrational Risk Takers they're the ones that don't

deserve the keys but they've end up capturing the power of the keys and it pisses me off like from a crypto perspective I fell in love with the idea of a trustless and programmatic blockchain Bitcoin took a while to connect for me but ethereum connected with me right away because it was trustless at least in my naive eyes at the time programmatic blockchain and we saw that come to some real fruition with defy summer and that changed everything for me to where I was starting to get dejected after a few years of your Trading coins that are supposed to have decentralized Concepts on centralized

exchanges to you can actually do things on chain and even nfts really clicked with me in that regard of you're doing things on chain you're taking control of the programmatic elements of a public blockchain and I can see through the jpegs and into the the D the 721 represents and what that can become 10 years from now or 20 years from now and those things excite me and then the freaking monkey brains take over again and they throw [ __ ] all over the place and they make a mess and then like hopefully some adults clean it up when it's all done and it's in the next bear and then their bags underperform all the dog [ __ ] that gets spread out over the

next Bull cycle and it's like it's depressing so yeah it's like a thankless job not that I've participated well in it like I've been one of the monkeys um but it's it's a thankless job to like Express the reasons why you should be here and people are in the chat are talking about how Andreas is who they admire he's not taken like the full um by the horns stance of profitability he's taken the moral High Road along the along the way and very few of those really shine and last the reward is in the the Quick Fix and hope you jump off

the train right in time before it implodes in the next cycle and we got to get past that stuff we got to get to True Value and I haven't seen that and it pisses me off and I would like to see that and we have I don't think we've really seen it yet and you know this is only two cycles for me it's a second cycle where it ends in some pretty tremendous disappointment like the climactic finish of oh brother yeah but who are these children and where are the where's the good stuff we need the good stuff I need we need the real change not the dog coins and not the jpegs and not the Clone coins and the scammers and the [ __ ] and the criminals running

off on the private planes like we need the builders and the change makers and they're not being rewarded or incentivized to be the good things and we need them to be able to show up to be rewarded to show up and we need them to take control and do something and I I haven't seen that yet that's disappointing electric you don't have any yeah you don't have any kids right I have two kids I have two kids uh Ryan here is yeah they're both nft Founders uh Ryan's got got three kids your guys's kids like the presence of your kids like impact how you think about the degeneracy in this industry yes for I mean for me it impacts how I think about like the future

like I I mean the reason I'm like the reason I'm in crypto is because um I believe in what we're building you you want to do the maximum public good yeah effective altruism it was the poster of SPF the reason I'm in crypto is to do the maximum politics is that what he really says there's like a poster there's like from the streets in San Francisco yeah I mean but like but this is the problem it's the Alex machinski is saying um you can't trust the banks right like on it on a t-shirt or the SPF saying I want to do the maximum public good I mean this is the problem so I've been asking uh you know people lately have been in crypto for a while it's like just you're experiencing

crypto has it made you more bullish on humanity and more jaded um and the answer I consistently get back is like yes yes and I guess I feel that too and this is definitely a moment where we're kind of in a in a trough in a valley where I'm just I'm like like you guys I'm feeling pretty jaded about what's going on like how did this is such a self-inflicted wound how did SPF and the so-called adults like screw this up so royally I mean this is like catastrophic failure how did how did we even get here how did this happen and it's greed it's

degeneracy it's not being satisfied with being a you know multi-millionaire and a billionaire you have to be like 30 billion dollars richest dude on the planet I it's that sort of thing that is dragging us down and I think Ledger you're right like the right people aren't getting rewarded right SPF is still worth more than vitalik buterin like what how like how does that happen um so yeah it's um it's depressing sometimes maybe this is just kind of a low point maybe this maybe this is uh the bottom signal you know this entire world what's depressing is was it a bottom signal of the world like

Putin's being a [ __ ] Trump is an idiot like shouldn't exist like Biden's been in public office 1971. like what is going on like none of these people deserve to be there like this all ridiculous the the absolute freaking apes are in charge and they make no sense and they've there's like billions of real people who are eating the consequences of this do you think this is what like the early internet you know fathers of the internet you know yeah is it created the internet and you're like we're going to give access to knowledge to the entire world right I mean just such a um Utopia type of vision and now fast

forward and look look at all the ways we're using the the internet for negative it's done Untold good but like I mean are we any smarter like than we were you know 30 years ago 20 years ago I mean it just it it does feel like uh crypto is kind of repeating some of these mistakes and um yeah I mean I do get jaded when I look at that when I look at things like FTX yeah at the same time guys I mean there are so many builders in this space and there's so many projects that are worthwhile and like I don't know Kobe you probably have the when you say so many you mean like 10 right laughs I mean honestly right um

like there's uniswap there's Ave there's what else come on help me guys uh yeah I think that's all of them no cash oh wait can't touch that anymore it's kind of a good point in a way though because like and to tell this story I'll have to do some somewhat of a anecdote or tangent because um I don't know how to explain things simply um because I'm not very smart but um not long ago I got into a little fight on Twitter about nfts and I called them all coins with pictures and um in defense of nfts a bunch of people point to like three or four artists that have built sustainable careers of

selling like a one of one over time and their prices have gone up over time and they have genuine collectors and they're like nfts and not all kinds of pictures it's not a scam it's not all just like speculation casino because luck here at this like slice this slice is interesting pure it doesn't have any of those things it's everything that the nft space is supposed to be um these are real artists who have managed to connect to an audience and monetize their work um and that's beautiful um it's not selling pictures of like blood Apes for millions of dollars or whatever um and at the time I was like how can you just ignore

everything else right you're looking at this one percent of the industry and going of your industry or hobby or whatever and going like this thing these things are great because look at this slice and I'm going to ignore everything else that just deny that information and now I thought about it a little while afterwards and I was like well when I meet friends who are anti-crypto or not into crypto um and and stuff I wonder if that's what I sound like to them because I'm kind of like wow Bitcoin ethereum look at uniswalk look at like ah look at maker Dao you know um I like this stuff is really good this stuff is

like you know pure and like it it you know what I mean it's not exactly like that nft guy and I'm not like ignoring uh like all the other stuff I obviously see it and I know that it exists but I do certainly attribute to it like that is that's not the important stuff that's noise that's like you know like you know that's not the industry and really maybe that's like 18 of the volume of the industry or something maybe it's like a lot of the industries propped up on that stuff and they're like biggest players participate in that like binance as 80 market share or something and they did uh they released their own ethereum copy paste clone like you know like the top

um tanon um playing gecko is not the things that I think are like like people with good good intentions building something that's important it's like weird stuff um so I do wonder if we turn a massive Blind Eye to a lot of the stuff or just disregard it as noise because um we see parts of the industry that are important but those parts of the industry are not the um the parts that are like flourishing and growing it's just you can focus on them and go these things are good and yeah I don't know I think that there's a lot of people that build a career on being

um like critical of everything in crypto no matter what they call everything um a scam of fraud blah blah blah um and find something bad to say about everything and then there are people who build a career of being completely uncritically like favorable about everything in crypto um saying everything's good um you know free markets blah blah blah and I wonder a little bit if to people I sound a little bit like the latter rather than the former like that I think there is like a real there's a healthy line somewhere in the middle of being like optimistically skeptical um uh and it doesn't feel like that space is actually very popular

but I surround myself with people that like are in that space But I don't think that it is actually a good representation of the industry perhaps um so yeah I I think a lot of the disconnection about how other people see the industry how we see the industry and when these events happen why it's disheartening is because it just reveals to you again all of the parts of the industry that you like like you're just attributing as noise and unimportant and actually it's really important that make the big the most significant events of every year within our industry by [ __ ] up something like catastrophically um so

I don't know I think maybe there's something to do with that but also maybe um like we just sort of kind of ignore it in real time um like what can you do about it right what can you do yeah this is something I've battled with uh as well I I want to argue this guy on stage about something uh I can't remember his name but I had to it was one of those guys Kobe that you identified as people that build a brand off of just like [ __ ] on crypto and that's like what they do and they always come out when prices go down and uh I started off this debate um with my opening statements of like there's always two people in the world of crypto there's the crypto idealist who zoomed forward 50 plus years into

the future and talk about the future crypto Utopia that crypto is going to bring and how great it is uh and then there's the crypto Skeptics who look at crypto as it is today and say like oh like well clearly the whole thing's a scam uh the whole thing like through and through and through and like uh honestly Kobe I actually find that you actually fit the that middle ground pretty damn well where you see you're here for all the right reasons but like you you can you can call out a bunch of [ __ ] noise when when in the middle of a bull market which a lot of people are are willing to drink the Kool-Aid um when you're when you were talking about the whole like nft industry where you're called it like all coins with jpegs uh right it was super right it was

super right and that that was like kind of the same reference I was going with like oh yeah as soon as we figure out crypto industry figures out this new primitive we like regress back to our former selves and start to do what we're familiar with which is trade alt coins but now they've got pictures associated with them that's how that's how I felt in ethereum in 2017 with like the Ico movement it was like oh yeah ethereum's full of icos and and I was like and but I'm I'm seeing ethereum as like well no smart contracts icos are just the thing today smart contracts are the future uh but it takes like such a long conviction a long-term like time Horizon to be able to exist in that future State um

it's it's tough man and this is what we this is what we do as an industry is like we Zoom forward 50 plus years it's a super cycle we're gonna teleport there like Oh no just kidding uh interest rates go up uh every new buddy needs to pay back their debts uh all the monkey pictures that you paid a million dollars for are now worth nothing uh I mean it's it's that it's the inevitable like laying the foundations of things that are real uh and then and then we just speculate on top of new things and that this was what the bull market was in the first half of 2021 it was a real foundational bull market and in the second half of 2021 it was like GameFly and like weird knockoff Fiverr nfts

um but those same things will be back in greater numbers next cycle and they'll be stronger and then we'll just do this whole thing all over again man you say super cycle type stuff it's suppressing to me we I I don't know about you guys but I mean I I got duped by the super cycle meme for sure Kobe's been uh consistently when I try to still be believe in something Kobe like brings this healthy skepticism to my chats like the very little time that we talked that's not on the air but even on the air um we really basically never talked but

it's not yet um but but when we do it's often like him bringing this like skeptical lens to something that I'm okay with right like that I trust inherently or something I just realized we talk about super cycle or whatever else or like meeting your Heroes type of stuff it's like my first cycle I was really dumb my second cycle I was capable and stupid uh that's now and like I feel like by the third cycle maybe I'll be capable but also like kind of paralyzed by skepticism and listen you guys are all talking very confidently about his promise next cycle well I'm not saying when will it be I'll be more bald more fat whatever like sag your cheeks I'll be like that

Telegram uh AI version the sticker of me when I'm like 75. um I just I just want to know this is the first time in history that people have been extremely confident that another cycle is promised to us I remember thinking that last cycle you thought another one was guaranteed you know I always thought like oh everyone's talking about the next cycle uh is it really gonna happen then if everyone's talking about it I remember thinking about that I'm a believer that it's it's inevitable that we get another cycle but I'm not going to call a time on that for sure 100 but but I like and I could be wrong on that like what if it's in 20 years will you like whip up the podcast again every step of the way oh my God growing

up freaking old together David what I mean we're not old ER oh I'm still in my how old is garyvee he's old scary everyone guessed about the police 40 43. yeah I was gonna say 44 or whatever I have to type in age wow he is 46. 46. the more well like with with guy via he like his streams and stuff but I think maybe it was also because it was all about like like cringy jpegs and [ __ ] so I was always like I feel like this is what ledge is going to be like in like 10 years

I just watched him like wow this is the this is the future for Ledger because if he was just like no way pushing 50. it's been like check out this rabbit I just minted guys that's what I see Gary totally unreal energy yeah she's got books yeah yeah and then like jab jab jab right hook like he wrote a whole book on this concept jab jab jab right hook that this is a book yeah I think so I don't want to read it Gary garyvee was like a web guy influencer way before nft so are you all not familiar with his previous Works uh ish he's good on the podcast but it was he was a he was a full-on web

guy well I guess I was too but in a different way comment from the chat garyvee dresses like a middle schooler but I love him I mean he's the he is the dude with the skateboard yeah I love kids how do you know your fellow kids [Music] guys should we uh think about winding this down and um do you have any parting words of wisdom how about for people who just um just feeling really bad right now do it we I mean we just we just told them they were gonna get multiple years of uh crypto winter multiple years with bankless podcast is all I'm hearing we have uh I hope we understand yeah just staking right we just stake

eat it's it's free money that's how that works for most people I mean for most people um more years of culture winter is probably better um I think for the majority of people listening it will like it would actually be the optimal strategy to have like five years or something um it would be optional for them probably not the people listening that have like a full net worth invested now it probably sounds like quite bad um but like uh uh if you get a longer time to you know um DCA accumulate um figure out your positioning and stuff um with like a clear mind I think that's

probably um probably optimal like I had um a job like full-time job for the entirety of the 2017 cycle all the way through the bull market I could have not had a job I could have you know only done crypto and I kept a job and it allowed me to have like a very clear head about the whole thing or as clear as it as clear as I could have had whereas if I was all in doing it all the time it would have been quite bad for me I think um unlike the fundamental parts of the uh the mission and the the purpose behind Bitcoin and ethereum and um a very short list of stuff that uh I think like crosses the chasm of

legitimacy it is is not like that is not to me that's not been doubted by any of this stuff and in fact it's like uh is the opposite of that it's like proven over and over again that like these centralized systems that require you to rent your own assets back from them um will not be um not always be honest with your money and you should not have to trust someone else just to like access a financial service or um uh you know use use your own money basically

um so that part of the my thesis for the the importance of the like technology and you know um things that we have remains um true today um and that has sort of been like at least my guiding principle for 10 years um yeah it might get really bad in the meanwhile um but until that part until that seems like it's no longer um important um like I I think that's the thing to focus on um maybe it was all speculo crypto tokens and like there was a hundred year Bull Run and interest rates went to zero and people invented Bitcoin because there was nowhere else to put your

worthless dollars and we had a 10-year super cycle of crypto coins right before Economic Policy regime change and it never recovers and never goes up ever again but in that world like what like hey what can you do and B what else are you going to invest in anyway so um I think just like do you find the mission of having peer-to-peer peer-to-peer sensor resistant technologies that allow you to uh the freedom to self-custody your assets important um and do you think that a centralized exchange blowing up a hedge fund blowing up a poorly designed Ponzi scheme mechanism or a different crypto Bank blowing up in any way plus doubt on that thesis for me

it it doesn't I think that's important um and I'll think about that um but uh I don't know if you saw in chat spf's apparently playing league right now he's like because it shows you see the game is playing Kindred um and what platform does it say that he's playing that huh it's Gulf Stream blown off steam who knows Jesus that's got to be a meme uh if that's real that is like what would you do after your multi-billion dollar head of fund blows up don't answer that well um

I mean that that makes sense Kobe what about you Ledger David what do you guys leave us chat chat Chad was asking for some hope leave us with some hope earlier I think Kobe hit on a point that's right which is like the chain hasn't failed us you know um the the things that were the worst were the vulnerability points of human actors yep human human failure centralized entities that um were unsatisfactory Solutions whether they're trying to meet regulatory criteria or subvert it either way

it was human failure over chain failure um there was app failure and there was you know hacks and stuff like that but overall the base layer with the chain showed lots of Promise the cycle Kobe mentioned about like who can stomach it for another one what I've recognizing myself and others is can I go in with conviction again in the same way and if I can and if I'm right then the upside is huge right like you go in with conviction a significant percentage of your net worth to to do it again and it actually works the upside is not just life-changing the

upside is insane if you're wrong there's this Perpetual disappointment opportunity that could be really depressing to go in with that conviction if you disappear you might be all right have changed your life a bit and it was a fun ride but then maybe you missed out on it on being right so you got to determine why are you here are you here for this like Financial Freedom component are you here for something deeper and can you stomach the outcome no matter what the outcome is and I think you have to decide for yourself like whether you can stomach the potential outcome ranges whether you want to participate in those and and why are you actually here

and I uh my personal priority list is family first and then like function set second right like I want the I want my my family to be secure and then I want to build well I want to be able to build and do and invest and talk whatever the hell I'm giving whatever platform or opportunities I'm given I want to do those reputably that I can look back upon and be proud of my effort and I think that there is still an opportunity to do that within crypto so I intend to do it

um but if I feel like that's no longer possible I just won't anymore I don't I don't think we have to give up on those things like this is super bottom signaly type of speech um but I think that we uh I think we still have an opportunity for good I don't think it's a guarantee I think there's a lot of work that needs to be done I think a lot of people need to do work we need to talk about the importance of the chain and the um like the Eric Voorhees argument versus the Sam argument like the Trust trust in that which can be trustless don't trust in me because I'm I can wear a suit with my shoes

untied um yeah we gotta get we got to get back to the basics and we gotta wear solid fundamentals and carry on back to the basics um David you saw conviction on the space you buying I think the main thing to think about is that uh during the 2017 to 2018 crash we basically had nothing to stand on as an industry we had we had Bitcoin and we had this theoretical use case of ethereum um that was about it um and then we built some stuff during the bear Market that caused a bull market to happen later uh things like uniswap seeing things like Ave synthetics a few more uh governance

tokens now we got some Dow stuff we got some cool nft stuff uh and but we and we've we've locked in some very real progress um with some very real things that are moving the needle even though that there's like maybe five percent of the total crypto industry is that the real stuff and then the 95 is just like Leverage of that real stuff in pursuit of financial gain again it's just what crypto is going to be but we've locked in five percent of really cool legitimate like internet changing things and that was and you know Infinity level improvement from the bull market prior going from like zero percent to five percent I think if we just play this out like we

don't go from like five percent to ten percent next time we go from like five percent to 25 or 5 to 50 if if I'm being optimistic uh and so my my bold case for like if this is a five-year bear market and you need the conviction to just grit your teeth and dump your paycheck into crypto because you want that generational wealth it's like not a linear Improvement of legitimate things that crypto produces it'll be an exponential Improvement um uh and so we'll we'll be able I think the people that are here with conviction that are doing good stuff and building real things are going to only have more ammo than all of the scammers who get washed out every single year uh and so like the real people doing the real

things will always have a stronger foothold than the scammers that come and just like do the cool thing that happens every single bull market and so I'm I'm optimistic for next Bull cycle that and every and every bull cycle subsequent that there's always a tilt a slow small tilt towards the legitimate Builders because we have the last year's last Cycles bull market legitimacy to stand upon uh and so that that was that's what makes me optimistic uh is that like we'll we just it's just about learning lessons um so that's that's why that's what I'm optimistic for I agree with that yeah and I I mean I guess for me I I don't know everything about all the Assets in the space but um

I feel like this the recent events have actually proven the use case of some of the core assets I have conviction on um crash I have some conviction on bitcoin you know mostly ether mostly some of these D5 tools that sort of thing uh ethereum I mean this kind of proves the use case right like that we can't actually trust these centralized intermediaries um and uh I don't know to me ethereum in particular has never looked stronger like I would be happy to as long as I have some income the means to do it by triple digit all day and whether that takes one year two years three years five years to come to

fruition I mean like is it it's a totally different feeling to me than buying eth in like 2018 or 2019 where we weren't sure about the road map like was proof of stake actually going to happen was the theorem going to scale did it even have use cases besides the stupid Ico thing uh and uh we're well past that now so I don't have conviction on all of the assets in the space and all the use cases but some of the the core ones I have more conviction than ever uh so I don't know how long this is gonna take but um guys uh this has been fun thanks for uh a little bit of catharsis this evening uh appreciate up only bankless live stream we'll do these more often

maybe not just on like clam stays like this maybe uh more routinely but it's been really fun hanging out with you guys appreciate it cheers bye