ZKV presents Privacy in Cosmos: Panel Discussion: Validators & Privacy in the Cosmos Ecosystem

Transcript

i have a number of questions i want to jump into but first maybe i will quickly introduce everyone here um so we have zucchini who just joined from iclusion and sommelier we have adrian from helix anoma and previously cryptium labs with felix from chorus one our new partner thanks felix for basically in the chat being like we're live like i was like oh timing awesome um billy is here from the icf and dave is here from sikka and now osmosis um did i say that all right did i did i miss any affiliation let me know if i like feel free to jump in if i if there's another company i should mention

there no i got i got it okay all right so i think my first question is so this is it's been three months since we last did a session and we actually did a panel in that event as well and i want to hear from you kind of like from each of you what is the most exciting development in cosmos that's happened in the last two months two three months let's start with adrian yeah i mean uh honestly i'll pretty obvious in my opinion um ibc is life um and osmosis has proved of the use case that ibc is like a reasonable ux um that you can like actually move assets with uh that's not really not clear to begin with if you're honest whether

like ibc transfers would look in any sort of way reasonable um and i think osmosis is really proving out that ibc works in practice so i think over time you start seeing a lot more adoption now ibc cool all right who wants to go next felix what's new with you or what have you seen yeah yeah definitely i can just like could repeat just what adrian has said but i'm gonna also add i think a lot of things maturing right a lot of chains coming to launch in the cosmos ecosystem be it their osmosis or also like injective today and really i think a lot of the tooling kind of cosmosome

being used widely peggy bridge coming to a lot of chains so i think really cosmo's really a bright future and great moment right now in the ecosystem and we're super excited to be part of this and support a lot of change zaki what's what's new from your side uh all i would say is a shame on adrian for ever doubting that ibc was going to be awesome but uh osmosis definitely made the ibc dream a reality um and that has obviously been i think uh a big a big deal it's it's it's been super cool to see you know several thousand ibc packets

moving every single day now um so like you go to map of zones you see tons of activity they the atom osmosis trade route is alive and well um uh and a lot of the vision is sort of expanding the way it was always intended to finally um so that's that's kind of cool um i think all of this stuff is kind of paving the way for privacy now um because before we had ibc um you know you our privacy solutions would just be the same as everyone else's privacy solutions which is you know privacy for the native asset inside of your chain um a lim you know limited bridges limited composability uh vision um and your semantic and like

the same semantic constraints that every every other blockchain has where you need a where you need a shielded pool and a non-shielded pool and then you have to have a way to get in and out of them and all of this stuff and like how do you get exchanges to support all of this and the general nightmare of the of of privacy and blockchain integration um and i think ibc basically solves a lot of that um and um we are we are just right at the cusp of the frontier cool all right dave your project keeps getting talked about so maybe you should weigh in yeah i mean uh but for me it's definitely the osmosis launch but it feels almost like a compound answer here like uh pretty stoked it's funny if you

highlighted something else but yeah uh yeah i think you know uh i think obviously go live and have this much impact i don't know i really got the sense that like this cosmos dream we've been building uh you know working towards for years like i don't know i thought this was the first time it was uh met with like all these ipc transfers sub sub minute latency for moving things around uh beyond that i've had a ton of fun like last three months watching all the progress on lee's legend heliacs i've been like following the repos pretty closely and tons of cool developments going on there very cool um just a little note uh dave and i actually with sunny recorded an episode of the xero knowledge podcast

which is coming out next week so look for that uh just so everyone kind of is ready for that billy we haven't heard from you you you are sitting at the icf you have a slightly different perspective i feel like you see all these other kind of maybe things coming up what what's new what was new in the last three months that was very exciting yeah um definitely have my hand in a lot of pots and that's a lot of stuff that won't be really publicly visible for a long time so it's like i feel like i'm often working on different time scales which can be frustrating as well like i want to see it now i mean even with like seeing ibc live i've been like dying to see the the sharp edges you know i mean like when you see it live like where are the

hiccups gonna come because that's like the really exciting part of seeing that it's actually happening um but in light of this being a privacy event i would say one of the like uh soon-to-be live features that i think has a potentially interesting application with privacy is an ics called entertain accounts it's ics 27 so it was the first one that was basically merged after ics 20 which is a token transfer this is the application level standard for ibc you know the ibc is agnostic to the contents of the packets but inside those packets if you write standards then it becomes easy to parse on both sides and ics 27 entertain accounts basically allows you to send a packet across ivc that is executed on the receiving chain as if

it was a normal account who's executing a normal message and so depending on exactly how it's crafted on the sending side you can basically create like contract based accounts so you can have an entire blockchain basically control an account collectively on a different blockchain the way a smart contract can interact with other smart contracts on ethereum and uh it opens up a lot of possible applications one of them is like staking derivatives one of them is sort of like you know group management of funds you can imagine like the community pool is a dow that controls funds to collectively and they use those things in different defy operations maybe they use them to collectively stake you have sort of like business development between blockchains you know you could do a token swap between

community pools each of them delegate tokens on each other's validators there's lots of sort of cool stuff there but in terms of privacy i think uh also sort of like an interesting feature of ibc is that you could have basically a private blockchain that's being run with its own internal uh rules and things like that it doesn't need to use cryptography to be private it could just be privately run from a few nodes who only know about the existence of each other they could come to sort of terms they could be you know relatively uh they don't have to trust each other in the same sense you know they they have a use for a blockchain but they can still sort of collectively manage uh assets on a remote public blockchain and the only aspect of that public blockchain that they can see are the ibc packets that come through so

actually who's managing that system what is the composition of it that can be completely private not through cryptography just because it's you know maintained on private servers that they have you know traditional access control with and they only expose those ibc packets that interact in interesting ways on remote blockchains what kind of project like i'm trying to understand from what you described there like what what projects would would use that is that yeah what kind of currencies which one uh bank currencies is like i think one of the obvious cases right like no central bank is ever going to give up monetary sovereignity to like the e2 validator set or to any other validator set so i think honestly the way to get some

currencies into these systems is to allow them to expose two authority chains ibc connectors effectively by which they can issue and redeem um in and out of the assets you could also imagine sort of like a private dow um so it's you know a bunch of people who have enough trust to put their money together but they want to have strict accounting with like a byzantine all-tolerant system and state machine with accountability but they also don't want their inner workings to be visible to the larger public crop these issues i think is another one actually um or like tokens even like things like tokenizing supply chains right like volkswagen isn't going to run on ethereum they're like going to

issue car nfts and then they can flow around the ecosystem if you actually want to get a car in exchange you go back to the volkswagen ibc connector i'm trying to like so you mentioned the ics-27 so that's a standard but like would is there tooling that would need to be built for this or would you expect the teams that are interested in building this to build all of it so the way ics module works is there's like a core module that's able to uh basically process these messages uh produce them for outgoing and also receive them and coming in like processing so that's like uh the first layer that is sort of just supplied out of the box inside the

cosmos sdk for you know it's part of the ibc teams sort of work that we're doing here in interchange and then you would have a secondary module which actually has like logic about under what conditions can you produce outgoing transactions and that's where you know you might have really customized stuff for your own project like you might actually put in some custom engineering about i want these conditions before the blockchain is willing to produce an outgoing message on behalf of all of us by default and and the other module that we're planning on producing as part of this is to utilize the governance module so you'd be able to go to the governance module say hey i've got a message that i think we should execute on the cosmos hub

it's a sale of the tokens that we have there for this other token set uh i submit that message to the governance module the the token holders on this local chain will vote should we should we execute this message yes no if it gets voted yes it gets uh handed off to the ics energy account module which converts that into an ibc packet that's ready to be relayed so that anybody can take the contents of that packet and submit it to the cosmos hub it goes to the interchange account there it says oh yeah i know about the connection to that blockchain i know that it controls this account and here's a message that it says it wants to execute on behalf of that account which is directed at the dex for instance or whatever it is that it's directed at

at the very end cool all right next kind of direction i want to take so out of the five of you four of you are are validators or were validators in the case of adrian you're you were a validator um one of the things i wanted to ask here is what is the role of a validator on the cosmos hub in the cosmos ecosystem and i'm wondering if that's changed in any way as ibc has sort of like unlocked the zones and connected all of it up i don't know if you have thoughts on

this but yeah um it just opens up the software sector you have to run right and like the ways you can help the ecosystem grow over time i think i mean as a validator i think you are focused genuine proof of stake so you're running multiple chains um not specific to cosmos ecosystem actually um and i think now with ibc you're also just going to be running multiple relayers um that like bridge between different chains whether it be near to cosmos natural osmosis osmosis to cosmos whatever right i think one of the underexplored aspects of this is that validators will also make very good market makers over time especially if you're reading lots of

data because you're going to see a lot of the arbitrage opportunities on the different chains we're going to have accounts in different chains and i think val like if i was a valder right now this is probably the future direction i take my validator in which is arbitrage across chains um wow that's exciting i feel similar to like no uh miners should all be front running where like uh you know as a miner you have this capability but then uh like should you execute it and you know it seems right now that miners don't just because uh on ethereum or weren't maybe they are now just because they were lazy or didn't know uh have the generalized running bots so honestly this feels different though um

like so i i mean because you and me we are by this year we're like we're going to solve front running on like single chains pretty soon um especially once built on tenement um but like i don't think that values it i don't think we should call it front running if you like uh supply liquidity in like if you keep the osmosis ammon stable written relation to like coinbase or a dex or uniscope and ethereum right this is what i mean that you have a lot of pricing opportunities because you're watching and running all these chains anyway you meant like take art opportunities or like you know take liquidation yeah there's a compound chain there's going to be like you you should i think we should we

should assume that there's going to be uh a a trading venue of some kind um on every cosmos chain um that there is going to be uh opportunity that there's going to be price distortions between them um and i mean it's just like this is what you this is the world that we're seeing like ethereum is going to have an amm on every uh roll up right every row will have an amm um and so now you have uh uh uh some sort and then there's the the there's the you know the heterogen the true like heterogeneous world of l ones then you have like these ecosystems like uh you know the substrate ecosystem the polka the substrate ecosystem the cosmos

ecosystem the avalanche ecosystem the ethereum roll-up ecosystems that are all like very similar into their structure um and so like there's just going to be like this pervasive need to constantly be arbiting the markets between them to ensure financial stability but like you know this goes to like my general thesis which is like um if you are running a validator like you have two directions that you can go you can either be a capital deployer or uh or or a protocol um developer or all three if you really don't want to sleep ever man do you okay so all three you're running into tons of conflicts of interest um def you may experience this relatively

sooner i guess aki as well oh absolutely i'm very familiar with these conflicts of interest um you know i don't think we will be running a validator on similarity for instance yeah similar to we're not going to be running a validator on uh osmosis we have exactly the same i want to bring like going continuing on that question though the role of the validator is like you know in our case i sort of forgot to mention me in this group i mentioned there was four out of five there's a five out of six um but is there a role for i mean grant what we're trying to do which is like also push for some ideas potentially build in certain directions um

yeah is that is that still something that validators you think validators should be taking a role on absolutely especially with how governance is structured in the cosmos ecosystem i think not so fundamental to like abstract speaking but i think the concrete staking in cosmos where when i speak to you i don't just uh delegate money for securing the network i also delegate my governance vote and in that regard this is then critical like uh you know the governance opinions of validators at the moment are very important i mean i do think we can imagine a world in like in which we separate the government's rights from the staking rights and you get ward separately that's not the world we live in right now so until that

happens like pushing for governance change i think an important part of uh being a validator yeah i was going to say i mean from a user perspective you know i'm mostly mostly the person who's like looking at the list of validators and definitely selecting the worst qualified one whoever's got the lowest commission rate whoever has the flashiest picture whoever has like a brand familiarity or whoever like i'm familiar with the person doing it and all of that is a combination of politics and like hollywood marketing you know what i mean like i think that's actually an aspect of validators we're going to see a lot more additional services not like um not not exactly the way i think it's mostly been spoken about but more like i don't know like airdrops and like um

access to group chats and i think that i mean i would expect that validators should want to have actually a much closer relationship to their delegators whether it's like updates chat being able to send notifications you know hey guys thanks so much for your loyalty like all this sort of stuff will only like increase the delegations and increase the power which if you know that leads to a better profit margin you know it seems inevitable it's interesting right though that sitka was like one of the pioneers in in this right the um having really good relationship with the delegators um but like you you you've run into the inevitable tensions which is like hey like we want to build a protocol now

um and so again like you know you don't have as much time to be and and resources to put to that there isn't like a you know building a standardized tool kit for like a tool kit for you know validator delegator interactions and stuff like that um are all things that are still tbd to be uh for the most part like the stuff needs to be built um i wanted to build it but haven't had the time uh and i i think we have we run into like this general situation of like generally not having enough time and uh and like oh i wonder i wonder if the tipping point will be staking derivatives at least on the the like short-term version of it in which you would have you know a staking derivative attached to an actual

validator and so you know the identity of that validator becomes you know an economic pressure as well for like the fact that you're trying to have the highest valued one different ways or if we're going to see that most derivatives are essentially priced the same regardless of the valid i would expect the ladder and that most derivatives are priced roughly the same um actually wait there's a caveat to this i think most derivatives for uh public validators that are sort of similar sort of seeker chorus one inclusion figment staked whatever right like they will be priced similar to each other the randomness won't i think it also depends like if you're like going back to this

mev discussion in a way if the validator is doing these uh arbitrages or whatever if you can give back to his delegators i guess it might also like impact pricing of his staking derivative or something i think that's also where the loyalty thing comes in and it could be a very interesting dynamic i i definitely tend to agree that the actual role of the validator becomes in this current ecosystem much more like financial in a way where it's not just about kind of devops anymore but more like okay how do you understand what's happening in this d5 on these chains and can you use it but maybe like also you have like a powerful position do you exploit it do you not i think the validator also has more like social

responsibility than kind of the group of work minor who no one cares about like the validators more public facing uh will have like content will have like a twitter account and people can like call them out and also like unstake if they see them kind of being uh detrimental to the network of trying to do things that maybe you have a harder time like kind of forbidding miners to to do so i think it's a really interesting dynamic is some super liberty still in cosmos to like rewards which i think also relates to your point about if they're doing arbitrages or liquidations and you know they do some kick back to their delegators so i currently actually still have this in cosmos where like the proposer for block gets more a

larger percent of the reward third and then uh so if i have a higher staking power i propose more often i get more award than everyone else uh than like other validators and so i don't know if we've seen like this impact delegator decisions because that would be kind of a similar effect to the kickbacks or liquidation it might be no one knows about this yeah right now i mean maybe it's not big enough right the money you're making from this of course but we're like kind of soon probably entering this moment where it will become more valuable as there is like amms and all these d5 applications so i honestly think that values are not really going to compete on

price uh i mean like all valdez will charge will return the same amount of money so within a narrow band of fees probably from five to fifteen percent or so um and whether you pick five or fifteen probably actually doesn't impact your delegation amounts all that much um like what we discovered for example cryptium is that most people like cared about like our stances in the ecosystem much more so in our fees this doesn't apply for the small holders that are very loud and better than twitter but for the large capital deployment into valdez this is where the they didn't care whether it was five or fifteen percent fees effectively they cared like what do you stand as

you're taking an ecosystem oh do you like i want to kind of bring it back to privacy in the role of validators like what could validators do to promote or push for privacy is there anything i mean this is our you know big question to ourselves constantly but like is there are there things that you could start to incorporate into like the validators role that actually could push some of this tech forward to zaki's point earlier uh at least in the cosmos hub a lot the early validators were people who work in the protocol and there's

something feedback loop where a lot of dollars end up being like protocol developers that's one way the second way is also just trying to market to build the meme of uh privacy is this important thing in the telegrams convincing all these voter rights this will pop to mind i don't know if there's i think the biggest i think like one of the biggest questions is really going to be as privacy-enabled technologies that require validators um start to pop up like how is the reputational aspect of being a validator on them going to work um like um you know you don't i don't think any of

us wants to be like a validator on like the money laundering blockchain right um and so legitimizing privacy as a important function that a validator provides as part of the overall service portfolio i think is a really important thing and like why i've been such a supporter of zk validator as ek validator brings a lot of like brand positivity and like this is advancing cryptography and science aspect of uh of privacy to um to the sort of privacy space and these events um all of these things really help us push an impression of running a privacy a validator on a

privacy blockchain is like really furthering these causes rather than like providing a a cr a convenient way to wander money yeah i would absolutely agree with this this is an issue of all privacy tech too like this is a we constantly you know in and out of these conversations and i think yeah as a validator is a very public facing entity obviously like yeah i don't think anyone here would want to be part of something that isn't good and at the same time in our case like we are extremely focused on privacy and so this is this is sort of a dilemma that we i i'd say so far have not faced but could i i think long term it'd be very helpful that validators start

pushing like very much the narrative of financial privacy is an important fundamental human right right like and um sort of that they come out strong out of the gate saying that this is why we support these privacy endeavors on chains um i think we should very much shift the conversation away from money laundering towards this helps people you know press parts of the country of the world or country um to like be safe from government prosecution right um it also makes markets safer right like what enoma is building um and like the threshold decryption stuff and all of this stuff it like makes markets like less vulnerable to it and provides consumer

protection um so there's like a definite consumer protection angle to all of this the other the other thing that i thought was an interesting dynamic in cosmos is like i would say that the political role of validators in the hub like sort of peaked in like 2020 when like sort of cosmos politics was in like chaos um and like has like declined into 2021 as like um the sort of political institutions of cosmos have sort of solidified um uh again something that's kind of disappointed me since the even the current early inception of the hub is how little impact i feel like validators

or governance directly has on the direction the protocol is taking like um we've never voted on like or okay we've voted once or twice but it's never been a big deal for where governance votes i want this feature in the next upgrade it's been more so like some the causal hub development team or usb announced this collective says here's this new upgrade hash you should uh this is not true sikka is deeply opposed to the gravity decks coming to the hub yeah but that's like the recent thing right like historically uh i feel like you know it's part of um readiness checklist now every feature goes to the hub to confirm you know even at early stages hey we're

we're going to continue working on this feature because we think it belongs on the hub do you guys agree with that i mean it's a little bit harder to like wait for any of the validators are happy about bringing the gravity bridge to the hub like no like it's only the overwhelming uh interest from from adam holders that like is like a reason to keep like putting in all this effort in the checklist sorry i'll get it but i didn't realize for the checklist to get voted in that's actually extremely exciting um can i ask a question about validators and privacy really quick uh which is maybe just an extension of this as i feel like i've seen demos or like grant applicants from before i got into the icf that were related to um

like plausible deniability of the operation of the validator itself um you know validators are in some ways the most uh precarious point of a network that may be deemed like illegal or something like that you know they often are public legal entities that could have cease and desist or take downs depending on their jurisdiction uh but certainly there's techniques be curious if anybody knows what the like status of them are for like running a validator completely anonymously um or in a way that you could be public but like you know not proven to have produced any of the blocks i know there's this problem of like you need to be public and sort of like why would i delegate to this sketchy validator but but there's also certainly

a gray area between i mean an interesting thought could be can you participate in consensus where you were unprovable whether you have participated but you're still stashable um this seems very hard and maybe impossible though uh you need um um you need uh there's a there's a cryptographic frontier system um i forget the name is slipping my mind right now but like basically it requires cryptography that we don't have yet um in order to have um slashable uh accountable uh uh but like consensus protocols when you get rid of that you don't have

flashing it's rel it's trivial to do an anonymous proof of stake yeah i mean there's just as a point here you should have slashing non-slashable systems are probably long-term unsafe oh is it functional encryption that's what we need um yes i believe is i'm trying to remember if you can do it with functional uh uh uh uh encryption or you need indistinguishability obfuscation oh these aren't pretty related in construct in uh construction generally on the point of validated privacy i actually think it's like not a long-term concern that i

particularly hold for these ecosystems i think it matters much more how geographically distributed your validators are and generally speaking these are small entities like they're not like massive failure points like one knot exchange um and so taking a lot of valdez down at the same time is very hard and what we've seen from these exchanges which at the moment everyone is using to like wash their coins is that even centralized exchanges run out of shade jurisdictions are incredibly hard to take down um yeah i would expect you to come after the fiat off-ramps much before they come try to come after the protocols themselves yeah going after validators because you know if it becomes too difficult to run

inclusion we just like unbond all our coins and move on right um do other things well i think one thought here and it doesn't exactly solve what you described billy but i know that like henry who is in the chat has been actually doing work on i don't think it's privacy for validators but it was i believe it's privacy for the delegators to the validators um and yeah henry if you want to if you want to say anything there just to clarify that yeah so i mean i i and i don't know if i looked on the validator side if you've actually like explored what it would be to be a private like privately validating but definitely somebody to be in touch with

around that rough area and actually i think it's the only project that i've seen that's really dealing with it this is penumbra um there's another question of like does it suffice to have kind of bandwidth privacy where i have some a non-identity then no one can locate my servers find the person behind it but also i found this is historically pretty hard to like run a very live uh server that no one can trace uh i mean so maybe uh with nim this might uh might get fixed but i'm not sure uh i don't know it's like i think it's a very har hard side of like maybe one of the hardest like network uh anonymity cases

to handle all right so i have i think we have about 10 minutes left in our session and i have a question about osmosis going back to dave's project and the question here is like what does osmosis do to the cosmos ecosystem like what does it mean for the way that all of these things are are running and i feel like there might be slightly different opinions in this in this panel here like does like basically the the question here is like how does osmosis being live change or what does it do

to the role of the cosmos hub itself so if i didn't say that too quickly seriously okay so i will i will say that basically my expectation has been that the the life cycle of cosmos zones is going to fundamentally change because of the emergence of ibc connected dexes um that the because like if you kind of look at like what was the life cycle of of of of of a cosmos zone was you like go out you start like a cayman foundation you uh sell tokens to investors and validators um uh you get a network up

you go to an exchange you try and get that exchange to list you uh then your token has some liquidity then you have like community events and marketing and telegram groups and all of this stuff um and this was like the original way of of doing things and now the way of doing things is going to be like i get together with i get like a small number of validators you know two three four validators i get a cosmos zone i get a zone up i connect to uh the dexes uh on the hub and osmosis uh i maybe uh make a community proposal to spend some community funds on uh on incentivizing an osmosis uh uh uh pool uh i immediately get

liquidity start building a community of users and uh and validators my validator set grows organically over time as value accrues to the token and like all of this like heavyweight stuff that like people used to complain about cosmos suddenly goes away it's all unlocked by having a dex connected over ibc what does this mean for the hub and like yeah i mean so i this is very true this is like reducing massively the burden of launching new independent chains that connect over ibc right um but i also think the more interesting thing will be to or not the more interesting thing but a different thing

is going to be how the sort of uh topology of ibc connections evolves uh so currently we're seeing this only i mean map of zones is great for this current you're only seeing this really with like things built with the cosmos sdk um but here we already see it's not like a hierarchical connection right where things connect to each other much more fluidly rather than all go via central hub um it'd be interesting to see what happens as soon as like there's an ibc connection going on to nia uh whether that flows only to the hub or that flows into the hub and osmosis and region maybe and like how this is going to structure i think this is going to be the most interesting to me this is the most

interesting thing like how this topology of obviously connect us evolves i'm also kind of dubious if we're going to get this hub and spoke model organically playing out until unless there's like thousands of chains i i'm not really seeing how it's going to be makes a lot of sense for a lot of smaller things like if you have like ethereum style smart contract chains kind of like they will need a hub and they're the spokes to this but i think all major chains it's not necessarily going to be this happen smoke modeler the global no famous chains so i i use the term famous and non-famous chains um uh which is as i think a much better model um and a

much better way of thinking about interchange protocols like ibc is a protocol that's designed to work in both famous and non-famous chains other people are building protocols that are really only designed to work between famous chains um but the uh i will say that like you're already seeing right now adam's really doing the job of providing the liquidity injection into the ecosystem that everything else needs like that's why the atom osmosis trade route is so is so valuable and why the osmo atom pool is so uh valuable and like at very least atoms are supposed to do that um i think every other functionality that atoms provides um there's going to be lots of

competition you know like the hub kit will have a dex but you will have osmosis and you will have numerous other dexes um and you will have will have a bridge but you will have lots of other bridges to various chains um that don't natively support ibc and as people get native ibc sport um you know flat topologies will will dominate um because you know that's that's the way these things should be so you know on one hand i feel like atoms are really doing their job they're doing the job that we worked really hard to be you know to get atoms out there early to have a lot of regulatory clarity around you know the the atoms so that exchanges could freely list them and you know there could be many on-ramps and off-ramps to adams and

they seem to be doing their job what is the status of the gravity decks and will that change something uh the hub version of the the gravity the version of the hub software with the gravity effects was released i believe i think yesterday or monday yeah monday amazing it's been the last couple of days have been really busy and blurry i put up the governance proposal to adopt an upgrade uh on monday as well um and we are currently voting on it so please vote cool what will that what is the like is there any predictions on what this will mean for the hub i mean is there is there a goal

with this that maybe can be articulated um i'll just go on zucky sorry no go ahead i mean in my mind whether there's like a goal what does it mean it's sort of the wrong question to ask it's more that i think it's cool to see tons of experimentation um and i think right now the focus should be like we've covered so little of the space we can be occupying here and like this isn't that it's either osmosis or the gravity decks or some other thing we should very much think about this there's so much unexplored space and we should try to occupy as much of the unexpected space as

possible and not try to like [ __ ] each other i do think that as a practical matter one is that the that a dex in the ibc network is an essential service um and so it certainly would be bad for the cosmos ecosystem if there wasn't only one and i do think if you when you get down to an essential service uh in the ibc ecosystem my belief is the hub should have that in its protocol um that doesn't mean there shouldn't be other competing ones it just simply means the hub should provide all the essential services of the ibc network as much as possible the dexes themselves also have different features um they're sort of like better suited for different specific use cases there's certainly lots of overlap

um but like like totally divergent road maps right yeah like uh the gravity decks is going down the unit swap v3 concentrated liquidity route uh role and you know the um uh uh and the osmosis is much more focused on you know mev protection like i don't really see like threshold decryption coming to the hub anytime soon but uh very different approaches i mean the hub has batch transactions so there's already the resistance within that on the amm and i guess what's the timeline for threshold decryption on osmosis because until then you guys are front running a bull um so well as is batch things

uh highlight description i'm not not entirely sure yet we're actually working with the helix pretty closely on this um i don't know hopefully by the end of the year uh i i think that's possible that you know the quarter house like because we're also deploying them into our noma right uh yeah so we are looking to launch with full front running protection mav protection um so as soon as possible but the crypto is pretty much worked it's hard upgrading tendermint at this point um so we'll see but end of the year is very good but yeah abci plus plus is very exciting yeah uh yeah uh i think one thing that's exciting about having two dexes is now we get this crosstrain harp that adrian

was talking about earlier yeah i mean i don't know sick as famously as stan so you know we don't think gravity decks on the hub is the move but giving us the world we're living in i think it is going to be exciting to see this uh it's our opportunity play out like our ballot is going to step up for this role of using their uh lower latency to make this happen absolutely another good thing i think about having the gravity decks is to put a gun to osmosis head to launch and watch fast yeah yeah go ahead just generally what do you think is going to be the first life chain that adopts ibc as in like not built on the famous the famous change

non-sdk chain um i would say that in general substrate stuff is is is like the most staffed at this point of everything right um the there is there's a lot of work around various variants of istanbul bft like like doing a cello ibc bridge is actually also a modest amount of work um oasis was just talking about how they're gonna but and they're not cosmos sdk but they are tender yeah my bad my it's probably either going to be near my mind or someone coming out of earth but it's like anyone i don't just don't think

anyone in here like is working on it they have their they have other stuff i think it's going to change because now that's like actually things are happening felix you have to drop off but i actually wanted to ask you yeah yeah i can stay on for [Laughter] very cool there's too much going on like i knew this i spoke at their cellar conference that's exciting well listen i i mean we're at time felix i know you have to jump thank you all for this awesome panel

check in helping us to like kind of go through what's happened over the last few months we have added links in the chat to the feedback form which we need for our report as well as the hackathon the zk hackathon survey in case it might be something interesting for you or you want us to do it virtual that's kind of what we're trying to figure it out um but yeah please do do fill those out and i hope to see you at the next um privacy and cosmos event from the zk validator thank you thanks everybody thank you bye