ZKV presents... Celestia Mainnet Launch - Powered by ZKValidator

Transcript

hello hey everybody we're gonna get everyone join our screen hey hey hey uh I think we're gonna add actually everyone to this one perfect okay so we seem to be live this is very exciting okay so I want to welcome everyone to this very special somewhat spontaneous anous live event um we are here to celebrate the launch of Celestia and we're joined by a group of the Celestia team I just want to make sure we got everyone on that should be on yes perfect okay do you guys want to just

say hi I want to hear you and I want to know that you can hear me hello perfect okay yeah so today what we're going to be doing is we're be basically catching up with the Celestia team about what's just happened with the launch and talking about some of the things that are coming up I want to just quickly introduce us the ZK validator and myself so you might know me as the host of the Zer knowledge podcast I have the cool logo here but today I'm actually wearing a different hat um I'm also the co-founder of the ZK validator and today we're actually going to be um yeah we're g it's the ZK validator who's bringing you this live

event we're currently streaming on Twitter uh on the ZK validator Twitter the Celestia Twitter the Celestia YouTube channel and the zero knowledge podcast YouTube channel and the ZK validator YouTube channel so yeah we're kind of trying this new format of just like you know streaming to multiple places at the same time we hope you like it but yeah a little bit about ZK validator we run validators on strategically aligned networks which we feel Celestia is uh we will be or we are actually already a Celestia validator and separate from this what the ZK validator tends to do is we are advocates for privacy in ZK we participate in governance where we can we build Tech tools and we launch initiatives to promote and fund ZK Tech

uh we are also like ZK validator and ZK podcast co-created the ZK hack event which I might tell you about a little bit later we have an event coming up around that and here with me on stage is Agy and Hector from the team I just want you to meet them uh I think they're going to be coming in and out of the event today but also you may have met them at other events that we've done and we hope to do more events like this going forward so yeah thank you so much for that uh thank you so much for all all of you for being here I think we can now kick off our spontaneous interview with Ismael and Mustafa so I'm gonna invite everyone some some other folks back later but for now I think we can kick off perfect nice so I think just to start

off how are you feeling like it's been a big [Laughter] day um pretty relieved and um yeah actually the launch went pretty smoothly like um the validator community is pretty awesome I feel very relieved that's like four years of work of like a team conts and Community um leading to this day so yeah pretty relieved very excited nice how about you miss also um yeah I'm also very excited I think the launch went presently in an uneventful way it was very uneventful in the sense that

nothing it was all very rehearsed and like we we had multiple test NS so it went very very smoothly very nice uh right now your taglines are implementation details is M and janitor Mustafa I feel like for our audience it might help to learn who you really are um yeah why don't you quickly introduce yourselves and your kind of you know connection to this project sure so I'm co-founder of Celestia and CEO of Celestia Labs I co-founded Celestia which was formerly known aser with isil and John uh yeah I'm is um also co-founder and CTO Celestial ABS um yeah the implementation details is a reference to

an internal joke which we were always making there the paper was written like over four years ago and yeah as a CTO I had to deal with like the implementation and every every in the beginning everything was like yeah it's just an implementation detail which took four years nice uh I want to just so you just said you had like you had kind of rehearsed a lot of these things I have to say I've never actually been backstage to a launch of a network which I kind of am bummed that I haven't had a chance to to know what it's like in the room while you're pushing the button but can you share with us a little bit about what that felt like like even if it was rehearsed like yeah go back to and

actually what time exactly did it happen today so first of all there's no pushing of a button it's like in the hands of the in the hands of like the community to actually launch the chain so yeah we we were nervous still despite the fact that we like launched many new test Nets and like um as as Mustafa said pretty rehearsed um the the actual launch but in the end it's a decentralized project which like not in our hands we cannot just push a button and launch it so things can go wrong right like it's a it's a distributed system um so yeah uh for that it was pretty smooth and amazing and um yeah nice tell us a little bit like you

sort of talked about going over the steps and figuring out exactly what you needed to do what did you do over the last few weeks in prep what was that sort of planning like yeah so this was after we finished the air drop uh we had the air drop last month and then after we finished that kind of started the work of actually try to assemble the Genesis file and recommending that the validators and then we had 75 validators at launch which were the winners of a incentiv that we did for the Box B race so um I think we were yeah just like a lot of coordination with like you know hundreds of hundreds of people were involved in this launch and Celestial

lab team is just a small part of that ultimately the valat is the everyone who participated in the test Nets um people the the entire roll system is building rolls and celesti test Nets and testing them so on and so forth very nice in your in the blog post announcing this launch you had said that this version of Celestia would be experimental can you share a little bit what that means like what is already ready and what isn't yeah so um it's experimental because we're the first chain to actually launch a production version of

dataa samping and that's a massive kind of Milestone or achievement and so there's a still like a lot of um no one really knows how that will kind of pay out in a real live Network so we have dat samping protocol and you know there could be bugs it could be um other issues that need resolve and the community will kind of discover and and fix But ultimately what you can use to this for today is you can now you can actually deploy RS on it you can use it as a data avel layer and we also have blob free which is like a data bridge to e and effectively like effec like as of now is like the only chain that supports data

blocks like there's like you know like like significant size data BLS for rolls like there's no chain where you can just post like data BLS for rops at this size and scale and so that sounds like something that people took for granted before like oh yeah just start the data of a blockchain but no blockchain actually supported um data blobs at this scale like more than like 10 kiloby second and so that's that's what you can use for today and um of course you anyone can now run a light you can go.org and you can spin up a light very quickly that and that light will actually do datail but some some parts of datal are full experimental and things like blocky

construction and batter cing F and so that's something that will be will evolve over time to make it more more stable and reliable I actually saw you I think it was today that you sent it maybe today or yesterday you sent a tweet a little bit about how this create like this idea uh is sort of a continuation of satoshi's original idea I want to kind of hear like can you explore that a little bit with us like explain how how Celestia fits into that picture yeah so um it's actually a pure coincidence but today which is the day that we launched is exactly 15 years after Satoshi launched a Bitcoin white paper and that wasn't planned or

anything that was just like pure coincidence wow but she also released a Bitcoin white paper on October 31st 2008 and in the white paper there was a section about what's called Simple payment simple payment verification which was like another another name for light noes and the idea was that instead of having to run a blockchain node or full node that downloads every block users could just run light mod and they could detect invalid blocks from the min if the miners decided to misbehave and have invalid blocks they could detect that by something that toi described as alerts and alerts is kind of like the pedor for proofs and

so you know and then this and then obviously had a one megabyte block size limit on bitcoin and there was this whole block size war with within the Bitcoin Community around 2013 2014 where part of the Bitcoin Community wanted to increase the block size and then they stand they SP out Bitcoin cash but the core Bitcoin Community didn't want to increase the block size and the reason for that is because if you increase the block size it's more expensive for end users to verify the change but at that time no one really thought that for proofs or this alert system was really practic like this the the state

transition for tro it was not that difficult but the unsolved problem at the time was how you prove that data was actually published how do you prove data inity and so now with primatives we have Primitives like data availability something that allows like those to prove that data is available and so I would imagine that if that was if these Technologies were more mature back then the debate might be very different yeah do you think I mean did that somewhere Inspire the idea or are you was it something that you kind of were thinking about and then realized that that had actually existed in that in that time I mean um I've been researching layer one scale ability you know for a

very long time and to me it was always about like how do we increase the through Port of a blockchain without increasing the the resources required for end users to verify the chain because um scalability and threport are different things you can't just increasing through isn't scaling you also have to increase reput while making it cheap for end users to verify the change because that's what fundamentally differentiates web 3 from web two so I kind of made it my life's goal to figure out how to maximize secure block space in a way and um at the time when I was lening this the focus of research was execution Charing so this was back when

ethereum had eum ethereum 2.0 it was like let's have 1,24 execution on ethereum and it was like the very complicated very complicated proposals they very complicated and I actually had a co-founded project called chains space this was also a shed system that was actually hired by Facebook and that became part of Libra team but I didn't join that team and I started but when as part of that research I was doing um the core problem that kind of it always boil down to you was okay we can Shard the chain we can add more execution chards but how do we actually um make it so that you can verify the behavior of their shards cuz

like what if one Shard misbehaves and so that's and then it came back down to well how do we prove dat availability shot so that you can prove this Behavior using for groups um and so that was ability was proposing Community by people like and then I decided I wanted to take this idea even further and um because I realized that that was actually the core PR of blains if you scale if you can scale the you're basically scaling what the main purpose of blockchain is which is um ordering data and making it available and using that you don't have

to embed Charing directly in your system you can use rollups because roll Ops are basically Char EXs is I want to hear a little bit from you about kind of what got you inspired do you have any sort of ideas from the past that you feel like very much influenc your thinking around this I mean yeah sure um when when I worked uh with like the core Cosmos team um I was very um I was like I really much like the idea on like how the state machine and the consensus is separated in software in like the cosmos SDK which like runs a state machine and tenament

which does the consensus and um when I understood lazy Ledger back then for the first time when I read like a paper and talked to Mustafa and John about it it's like oh this this is basically a continuation of that Paradigm but instead of putting it like separating that and abstracting it into software it's basically a logical like next step and put like abstracting this into different layers essentially so yeah this is this is this was like my thinking around that nice um let's talk a little bit about the rollups and kind of what the whole I mean everything about like the build that was launched today is kind of that that core that the rollups will

connect to but yeah tell us a little bit about the the rollup landscape for Celestia today and how that came about what tools did you need to build for people to be able to lock into your system yeah so um there's a very kind like rapidly growing Ro ecosystem outside of ethereum specifically in the cosmos ecosystem when we were first building last year uh we have an internal project called rollit which is kind of like a replacement tendent that allows you to create your own cosos chain but without having to create your own Val set you can replace tenament with vit so instead of having to create your own consensus Network you

can just plug in some third party de exia for your consens or and so that will allow you to launch Cosmos chains of RS and that's you can use that today if you go to but since then there's been a lot more rollup Frameworks that have been developed um that supports theia and kind of like more not not evm Centric but they support arbitary execution bying one of them is dimension which has a foret called Diamond and they've actually got they actually have an incentivized test it with around 700 rollups running on Celestia and because the ultimate goal here is we want to make deploying a rooll as easy as

deploying a smart contract and so like that's that's actually possible today with a lot of infrastructure that's being build out um Dimension is one of them but there also other projects called that that that offer a roll off as a service solution so you can literally like go on the website and fill out a form and immediately deploy a roll up and you don't have to trust that service because it's a roll up uh you know with with for proofs or G proofs we also have Integrations with Bob stack so you can deploy a optimism roll up on on and last week we also announced an integration with um arbitrum so now you can deploy arbitrum orbit rops using

celes as da there's also various other ROP Frameworks like Sovereign um The Sovereign fdk which is video they use RK zero so you can deploy R rollups that use to Forda as well cool I actually didn't realize that like I know the last time we talked on the show we talked a lot about roll kit and I didn't realize that there had been these sort of like variations on that roll kit being something where you can easily deploy a rollup what you're talking about are kind of other sdks that have been have they had to be modified to be able to work with Celesta like was there work that had to happen or were they kind of ready to use out of the box um yeah like for the existing SDK Frameworks like optimism orbitum we had

to modify them so that you could use them for for celesia but we're also working very closely with various followup teams to kind of create a standardized data availability interface for these framework so like for example we contributed um like a data availability like mod avability interface to optimism other dat layers are also Now using adopting but for other Frameworks they will kind of like round up buil from scratch without and like some of them for some of them sler is the first da um like for example like SDK or or D and that's many cases because they want to try and build something that

just isn't feasible with the current BL stes that might offer I just am curious here uh in terms of the rollups like do rollups who want to engage already like I'm assuming they already have to be kind of ready to go are there some that are like are there already rollups on Celestia now like it's day one so I totally understand if not but like yeah not on day one but there there's there's very rups have already deployed they um they currently it now but they would they deployed test it and one of them is so like there's vars that have been waiting for to watch scre they

can just Swit one one of those is they off that have used da integration who was it I couldn't hear what you said it's called Manta which is like a ZK evm chain like yeah okay Manta that was like okay polka dot poly polygon okay that one no Pacific oh yeah paic okay yeah yeah exactly got it yeah I know that team cool so there's a lot of these rollup teams who are I think just to paraphrase what I think you just said was like there's been a lot of these teams already operating on test net and what are they

waiting for to be able to move what they're doing over to the main net is feel free to jump in anytime a s yeah sure I think that that most of them were just waiting for us like or not for us for the chain to be live on the like that's the first thing they were waiting for and um I mean the second thing is like as M said it's pretty experimental I think um a few teams might like wait a bit until to um and experiment a bit more on test Nets until they they see like they deem the network stable enough to actually Deploy on Main net as well but yeah most of them have been just waiting on for us to be live that's uh

that's it and do you think me there's been there's been some fun people have been posting some fun things on the in blocks like someone posted the saty white paper up sat white paper um to as as a blob on celesia and various other images as well I my head maybe it's yeah satosi white paper apparently an image of James [Laughter] pres I don't know why but someone found it and like it's it's a it's an image of James pres nice forever in enshrined I guess together with the Bitcoin white

Pap yeah nice what does what does this launch do you think mean for Cosmos I mean I know that it's I mean it's a separate ecosystem and it's inspired a lot I know by Cosmos but it's also inspired a lot by ethereum but I want to maybe first talk about like the cosmos ecosystem how does celestia launch like I know there's a lot of people people in the ecosystem who've been very excited for it that's that's all I can say but yeah yeah I think um for Cosmos it mainly means that like you can use the the the the cosmos stack which is like Com bft or like known as tenament as well and like the cosmos SDK to deploy something that goes

beyond the actual like original Vision which is just like single chains with like different security Notions interacting with each other or yeah that that and and um it's it's pretty cool for for me is like having worked on that stack as well to see oh you can actually build something um that's uh potentially where you can deploy very different um execution environments uh on top of that not not related to Cosmos at all um so that's that's pretty awesome and I mean I've seen I've said that uh in the past as well for me is like like Celesta is a bit like what the cosmos Hub could have been um because it comes directly with

like here's a chain and here's a vision on how this chain can be useful for other chains for other Sovereign chains very clearly right like from the beginning there's a notion of like shared security and um yeah so I'm I'm very excited to like expand that ecosystem basically with Stafa what are your thoughts on the cosmos connection yeah I mean um Celestia is supposed to be a syn synthesis between ethereum and Cosmos in the sense like the sense like Cosmos was very forward thinking in the sense that they had a multi- chain Division and like you could like you could launch any anyone launch

your own chain but that didn't have shed security um but then you know back back in the day at the same time the cosb launched ethereum had these execution CHS where it's also sort of multi-chain ecosystem but it had shed security so cesia is kind of a synthesis of these two visions where cesia you have you have the best of both Wells where you can launch you can launch a sovereign chain just like you can launch a sovereign Cosmo chain but you can now have Shar security just like with e nice what does it mean for ethereum like you put you position yourself between them but like just

looking from the ethereum State and I know we're actually going to talk in our next section A little bit about the blob stream stuff but yeah tell us a little bit about how do you see ethereum reacting to Celestia how does celestia fit in that in that context yeah I mean mainly um e celesia provides data blob space eum via blob stream which he just consume but U one of the interesting things about celesia is that un like it does not have ins smart smart contract environment like and it's not a like it only does avability um so you can use another if you need you can use for that and use celes for

nice um I want to ask something so what do you think like so there was a I don't know if it went out yet I know there was going to be a tweet about this but like how people can already engage what can people do right now like we know that the validators can run validators we know that there's rollup teams who are about to deploy a rollup but yeah how can like generally people engage with this yeah there's ways several ways to engage um you can um of stake the tokens you can run light mode that's very easy to do one the people light and you can even deploy your own vup like it's easy for

for user to even deoy own roll up like if you go in the rollcase OR di box there like you can do it very quickly five minutes like you can actually deploy your own roll up and you know deploy out you know whatever like look like actually this is I think we did an interview in Paris a few months ago where it dawned on me what you were saying about like these small rollups like a rollup can also like each application could have its own rollup that I had always thought of these rollups as like large you know general purpose VM kind of EnV like an environment where people would deploy things on top and it was in our conversation where you were like no no no like each one like rollups become

much more there's going to be a lot more of them I guess yeah they can be they can be like Sovereign rollups that like have their own like like like an own Cosmos zone so to say but like with a shared notion of security right um yeah like my my my dream is basically that um also the tail endend of like applications that are currently either too expensive to deploy on ethereum or uh too expensive to deploy um in terms of like work you put in and and and resources to to expensive to deploy as its own chain um will be feasible to be deployed on celesa so it's like you

think of that as like the tail end of like applic decentralized applications that um yeah are currently nowhere deployed because it's not feasible not practical and this ideally would become practical with Celestial cool yeah I U there's around 700 rollups on Dimension deployed that us and it's kind of like various um fun different rups that people are experimenting with like there's various kind of like um games that people playing with various different ideas as well um so you check that out as well see what people are are experimenting with but yeah the ultimate idea is um it's very similar to the web in the

sense that just like how every organization or every Community um has its own website or and that and those websites or our communities they don't all share the same server they all likey this virtual machines on E2 like anyone right now from go on et2 deploy their own virtual machine in five minutes and install whatever they want on it um wow so rolls are very simple like rops are like virtual blockchains instead of having instead of being having to share execution reir with everyone you can deploy your own virtual blockchain uh with any with with and you're not you're not limited to the evm you can do something like that's more suable for your for your application and um you know experiment with that just like

people canpl play Virtual machines on nice so I guess what you're saying anyone can now is this almost like a call to for folks to go try this to like try it themselves how how complicated is it actually like how technical do to do this like some there's some services that made it extremely simple like one of them is called this like you literally fill out a form you click a button a roll up for you like it's it's very easy yeah it's the same as like deploying a on digal Ocean or ET should just fill out a form click deploy and it's deployed crazy but do you feel like most of the users most of the rollup folks will actually

be doing much more kind of Uh custom rollups is that sort of the the thing you envision or do you actually Envision these roll kit like things basically um being like the the most used format yeah I mean um the way I see it is that kind of like protal developers will create different EXs but the actual users to play thiss they obviously are not going to be creating execution environments but they're going to be using it it's just like how you you might deploy a virtual machine on um like digal ocean or E2 and you might install you know rout like python or Ross or goang um and then or and then you know or install like a forum

software like disc course or install a Blog software like ghost but so the users haven't created that software but the fact but they can enable them thanks to viralization like without virtualization would it be possible because you before virtual machines were were popular on the web people had to use shared webhosting providers like like GS or BL host and they were only stuck with one environment like PHP of my but but then eventually these kind of tools emerged where they didn't have to I guess they they had more options yeah and this yeah I I wonder just like in other this is sort of an aside but like in ethereum is it is it possible to also just deploy

like a small personal rollup could you do that yeah you can like with um like arbit orbit or uh you you do oback as well yeah it's still possible it's just like it's just like with um with etherum is very expensive right now uh because and even even with the IP 4844 U it only supports something like three blobs per block so it's not like I think it's still only going to be suitable for like these big General Pur you only F three blobs for blockia you can fit there's no limit to how many blobs because like for four you have to you can only buy like 100 kiloby of data at a time but with with FES you

can only you can buy a minimum 500 bites of cool nice well folks I I want to say thank you to both of you for this interview and sharing with us a little bit about about your experience in this launch and also kind of what people can do today I think Hector you jumped on I don't know if Hector's still there he jumped on for like a second hey hello hi guys uh what yeah Hector is there any questions or anything to add here yeah actually there are two questions that I would like to ask you guys the first one is um what type of uh governance proposals can expect uh the community

members to see on celest coming up in the next few weeks or few months like we know that uh people from the community especially in Cosmos is like very active on on governance so what can we expect in this sense of of governance so we actually um want to do like we want to have very little like onchain governance like it's a bit different from the the philosophy is a bit different from what we used to on Cosmos and it's more like what people are used to on ethereum and um Bitcoin so to say right there's a there will be like a Celestia Improvement proposal process um which is put into place and

and soon we'll have like cord Dev calls and um so with these Improvement proposals the that's the main governance basically for the protocol and um the onchain governance is literally like very limited to things that are related to onchain governance like there's a community pool there is um like a few parameters that can be changed some of them related directly to governance and uh others are like um for instance you can increase the block size without um hard forking or without upgrading the software via nonchain governance proposal um up to a certain limit only

and then after above that limit you have to resort to the uh Improvement proposal uh process so yeah it's it we don't know that it's up to the community to like um govern the like onchain parameters um I would recommend people before submitting a proposal obviously to like read our specs and see which uh which um parameters are uh changeable via governance and what not and which not um and I would also recommend to check out the uh Improvement proposal um um there's a repository for that that only

has like one or two Improvement proposals but that will be more active moving forward I guess yeah thank you thank you that that seems pretty interesting like that that you know uh switch on the on the um like the way you you guys are going to handle governance and there is another question I know you mentioned a couple of names here and there of people building on Celestia but can you walk us through a little bit more uh through the uh Celestia ecosystem like what teams are we can we expect to be to be like live in the couple on the on the coming months and and so on yeah so is that if you go on our

website we actually have an ecosystem page where you can check out the various project ecosystem uh there like different categories of project there's Ro officer service providers and so like five there's like five um different Ro officer service providers that are very onest there outlay Caldera and eclipse snapch and visara there's also very shared sequency networks and shed sequencing has been a Hot Topic with Astria Fair block radius and it's also like various settlement L um neutrons one of them and others like Dimension and and be and of course there's the rollup Frameworks like you know upack and and sub DEC which is what I mentioned um there's also you know

various defi Primitives intera interacting with celesia some of them are as rollups like present for example they deoy like a a de roll up on celesia um and yeah and then there's the cool experiments in gaming as well like with especially with AUST and curio um so for example like with curio they're doing some cool experiment they have like they've have a real time game engine they managed to modify the evm have a real time game engine they manag to put like Warcraft on chain and he would normally accept that that's like a real time strategy it's not like you have to do a transaction and a wait per second it's like 0 0.5 seconds and that's only possible that's possible due

to with using roll up sequences because RS have faster block time than they one themselves nice thank you thanks Hector all right and thank you to both of you for this part of the kind of event um yeah and for sharing with us all of this info and I guess the message from this very much is if you want to try deploying a rollup yourself you can do it now so maybe go do it very cool and congratulations actually I want to say I don't know do you have a glass of anything I want to definitely do a cheers to you both for putting this together I know we're going to do we'll do another cheers later on but I want to do a first cheers to you got Empty Glass

Empty Glass here but go you guys are gonna jump off when you come back bring full glasses okay cool okay right awesome thanks a lot know bye bye all right so now we're gonna invite to the stage Evan and John Adler hey hello nice hello oh my God I didn't get to see your your taglines Okay evan lead bug writer oh my goodness and John tweets on occasion welcome to the stage and our spontaneous live event um yeah it's really great to see you guys how are you

feeling I'm feeling amazing I'm um I'm so happy to to finally have it out I'm I'm excited to actually write more bugs and more features instead of uh you know doing a lot of stability work this feels I it feels rather routine kind of like what Mustafa was discussing where uh this was like very rehearsed we had done this a bunch if it didn't work I would be uh very worried and um I'm also I also just felt we've we've done a lot of debugging on the test Nets recently so I was very confident in our ability to debug things if something did go wrong so I felt rather relaxed there and uh it feels like it's just the start just because uh we we picked like very

conservative things I think at first so like um like we're using like standard tender and and the cosmos SDK and things like this and and now I think for for future versions has the community has just had like a huge number of ideas that are just super super exciting and we actually have users now or we will have users so I'm I'm I'm really really um excited and just happy grateful amazing Evan since you're you sort of started talking a little bit about the work you're doing can you actually introduce yourself and tell us what you do other than write bugs occasionally I I do fix bugs as well um I'm a core developer um I was uh

very very lucky and happened to be one of the first Engineers hired um so I have been working um almost three years for uh mainly working on application and our work of tender or Comet art and um that's pretty much it I I have also done a little bit of work on um of course flop stream and yeah nice John you've actually been on my show a long time ago project was called La Ledger still yeah oh wait wait um that was actually the first time that I heard about lazy Ledger was with John on that podcast no no way yes at the at the um I remember

exactly where I was I was going for a run and I remember hearing John for the first time and I was like oh John sounds smart oh these are good takes on rollups this makes a lot of sense right and then at the end John mentioned La Ledger and I remember vividly and I stopped what I was doing and I like like I like stopped running I was like oh my God this is the way and I actually went and applied right after that that's when I got hired was because was on that podcast with John talking in my ear Epic World wow crazy okay John why don't you introduce yourself sure I'll be introduced myself since I've been here before uh I guess on a different podcast but so I'm John

I'm one of the co-founders of Celestia uh I direct protocol engineering at Celestia Labs that means I guess I'm responsible for doing doing our best to help out the node and core app teams Evan of course being one of the lead of the cor app team um I want to so I mean I think this section of the event we we planned on talking about blob stream which we've sort of mentioned and hinted at before we even start and describe what it is or or actually maybe we should describe what it is but really one one of my burning questions is like what's up with the name blob stream because it's it's something but yeah so uh let's just

describe what is blob stream what is it sure uh so we'll describe it first then we'll get to the name is that that's what you're saying yes uh so it's essentially a oneway attestation of data being available on Celestia to ethereum in the more generic case you can say a Celestia like chain to an evm chain but in this particular case we're talking about n station from celesa to ethereum and it's uni directional which that makes it different than other Bridges many other Bridges or Bridges as people traditionally talk about them are bidirectional so you can move assets to and from chains things like IBC Axel

Wormhole Etc sometimes you move them one way and then they get lost forever like like form Hole uh but usually they're supposed to go two ways uh The Blob stream uh relay the attestation relay is is unidirectional so uh it essentially allows contracts on ethereum such as things you would call layer twos so you know variations of arbitrum optimism starware those kind of protocols uh can use Celestia to post their data availability while still settling on ethereum that's essentially the tldr of what it aims to achieve but you mentioned this like

unidirectional details okay but you you mentioned this un un directional what what part of that is unidirectional and are you deploying a smart contract on ethereum yourself yeah so the unidirectional part is uh attestations of data being available on Celestia are relayed to ethereum in a completely trustless Manner and permission also I guess uh but nothing is sent back to Celestia okay so there's no assets there's no messages there's no nothing it's just the attestation that data is available on is sent to ethereum in that direction only interesting Okay now what's up with the

name one of you has to take it as far as I understand I believe the name is supposed to elicit something um it's kind of playful in the fact that it's like a stream but just like John said like a stream goes one way it's unidirectional I think um the more technical term as at least how John first described it to me was um it was a light client relay so it's um it's exactly what John just said and it's blobs so it's like ethereum at least rollup developers are very familiar with like what a blob would be ah okay the same exact concept applies to Celestia blobs so if you you you're literally streaming blobs from one chain to a

different thus blob stream I think this this works but actually can you describe I know I know we're GNA actually keep this pretty short but what is like the blob for non rollup developers like what is that is it a is it a package of transactions that are being like kind of sent like what is it exactly it's literally arbitrary bytes of data okay the smallest blob on Celestia is about 500 bytes and the largest ones at the moment that you can get is the size of the block which which is about 2 megabytes but the block size will almost certainly increase in the future um

depending on what the community decides and um The Blob can be as big as whatever the block is complet arbitr literally anything like you can have images of James press twitch if you want that that could that's a great example of a blob uh another blob say that again John or or you could have the Bitcoin white paper okay but also like in the context of a layer two uh the contents of The Blob would for example be the block for that layer two so if it's like an evm based L2 like arbitrum for instance it would be for example the arbitrum problem the one one

block in the arbitrum chain that would be an example of something you could put in there but as I've said it doesn't have to just just be that it's completely uninterpreted data and this is one of the value prop propositions of Celestia right it doesn't actually execute that it doesn't execute blobs it doesn't execute these quote unquote transactions uh it just orders them so it takes the zeros and ones and puts them in the Celestia block but doesn't actually execute them so From perspective it can be anything because it doesn't actually care what it is so it could be an image if you're running if you're doing something like some I know sharing social media something like that it could be I know large like some sort of you know machine learning model

you can put the weights there might be a bit big uh or you know it could be the block of a blockchain but in the case of blob stream what is being sent like maybe can you walk through that again because now I'm just now that I sort of understand what a blob is what are you like you are sending you were saying sort of this uni unidirectional attestation is that the blob is it a blob of attestation so not exactly now we're getting into implementation details uh what's really being relayed over is not the blobs themselves but rather commitments which you can think of like hashes commitments to blobs uh because a commitment

uniquely identifies its pre-image right you'll uniquely identify a blob but you don't have to really relay in fact you probably shouldn't relay the entire blob over to ethereum because that would be very expensive so we just relay you know the hash with a blob or if we want to get very Technical and more into the weeds more into the implantation details you relay the mer rout of Comm commitments to blob so you relay them matches okay to save even more gas this is the data availability basically being brought as far as I can see to the ethereum network kind of like larger network but is this specifically for the l2s or is it for the main chain as well

I'm not quite sure what what what is meant for the main chain like ethereum main net like the the base ethereum or is it just for the l2s living on ethereum that testation like would you use it from Celestia testing to something on ethereum being deployed directly on ethereum or just on just the rollups the attestation is of course over all the block data in Celestia and that goes presumably to the contract on ethereum okay and then the rollups will post their block data to Celestia and then they prove when they need to depending on the roll they prove the

inclusion on ethereum so on the blob stream contract yeah so but I guess I'm kind of like trying to figure out like who's the customer for this and I know it's not really a customer but like it's the rollups from what I understand it's the rollups who want this data availability extra it's not the ethereum main chain that's using this for its own data availability because I guess it has it built in I see yes definitely the L2 okay got it yeah that's correct and we've seen a lot of excitement among the various l2s uh to greatly increase their capacity for data availability uh because ethereum as it exists today it's kind of has the throughput of like dial up internet

meanwhile Celestia as it's launched has the through of of broadband and potentially in the future as block sizes increase and uh you know could easily go up to Fiber speeds potentially uh comparative orders of magnitude so you know various l2s have had a lot of excitement around uh the possibility of having much higher data through which can unlock you know broader range of applications for lower costs Etc cool I don't know if this goes a little bit outside of the scope of this interview but I I know when the KV team when we were talking about this interview it came up we know that like succinct is doing something with you guys blockstream X can you share a little bit

about that also if it if it is out of scope just say so but I yeah I wondered if if we could talk a bit about it no definitely not I think the The Blob stream X is potentially I think the the future of blob Stream So currently blob stream works as uh the validators are signing using a different key and the reason why they have to use a different key is because of gas like it just costs a lot of gas to use the the standard um key that we use in tender at the standard curve but with blob stream X is they actually just throw a stark over everything and prove it natively so there's a few different advantages to that besides the fact that uh you the

validators only have to sign using one key that's one huge Advantage but it's easier to prove like things like equivocation like double signing things like liveness and perhaps um most importantly from a user perspective blob stream X um enables or will have like this sort of server and response model whereas now we sort of have relay commitments uh at a consistent time period so like every so often we'll just constantly relay commitments where with blob stream X like for example if it gets very busy or if there is enough demand for it you can push it even faster and you don't need any permission to to do any of that you just sort of

just you can just as long as you create a valid proof it's good I want to just go back to something you said right at the beginning of that you sort of said you could prove it natively but I didn't actually know where natively can you say where where is it happening is that on ethereum yeah or on the L2 no Pro by proof natively I think I was referring to that you would have the exact same signatures that are in the commit of like the tender header those exact same signatures are being verified in the Stark which I think is snarked or something on top and then included in in the blob stream contracts okay um I guess I don't really

I don't really know what the other version where far into the details and that probably a mistake I wasn't going high level enough no problem I'm yeah I'm sorry I'm not uh Deep In The Weeds enough to to be able to follow but but yeah um I think for me at least like well actually is there anything else that you feel like the audience should know about blob stream because if not I I think we actually have a couple questions but let's first see yeah is there anything else that you think they should know can they already engage with it should rollups be using it like yeah yeah so uh with respect to engaging with it is not currently live on mainnet uh that being said the bloodstream

architecture due to the fact that it's unidirectional and there's no assets involved unlike other Bridges it means that there's no form of custody right other Bridges like the bridge contracts or the bridge operators can be considered considered as custody and the funds in this case there's no funds it's unidirectional so there's no custody which leads to the very nice property that relaying of these attestations is completely permissionless and also completely trustless you only have to quote unquote trust the celestial validator set as long as that is honest whoever relays the attestations you don't have to trust them because they can't forge signatures and you're assuming they don't have a

very powerful computer uh and this also you know leads us to potentially the next point which is that uh one of the benefits and you know very important uh advantages of blob stream or blob stream like systems over uh the kind of short-term solution that some l2s have been looking into called Data availability committees and also uh restating type uh data Data Solutions uh those know data availability committees and reaking uh those do not support slashing or rather they don't support slashing without trusting some other set

of people uh and that's because for let's say a data availability committee uh you know how would you slash them they're just you know let's say seven trusted parties there's no mechanism for penalizing them they don't even have to put up a bond there's no stake for yeah there's no stake for reaking okay you can say there stake so we can slash them except because of the fact that you don't want native stakers to also fully validate everything that's being restak otherwise it's not restating just like a block size increase essentially uh you can't expect native stakers to slash the rakers if they do something malicious so how do you slash them you can only slash them by invoking ultimately token holder governance so

protocols like I know ien layer for instance uh how would they slash rakers that misbehave well you need the IG layer token and a majority of token holders have to vote on something well that's not the same security model as let's say ethereum or even if the majority of ethereum validators equivocate or if they sign over a malicious block they are not going to trick nodes that assuming of course the implantation of fraud proofs Etc they're going to trick notes especially they're not going to trick full noes they will get slashed but they won't get slashed inside of consensus they'll get slashed through social consensus because that is the ultimate kind of Guardian of of the of of these protocols so with uh if with a protocol like bloodstream the nice

thing is that since last L one the celestial Community can get community can get together and slash Celestia validators even if a majority of them sign over some malicious block or sign over a block that is not available for example so this is like an additional cryptoeconomic security guarantee that is impossible to achieve with data availability committees or restak nice cool all right thank you for sharing with us a lot about this kind of upcoming part of the Celestia stack I guess you could call it uh do I don't know if you already shared this but is there a time frame for when we can actually use or one could when when

teams can actually engage with this I believe that we already have versions live on our test Nets so on the Arabic test net I believe we already have it live we will have it live soon TM on the other test net on Mocha So within within a month I think is a very safe bet and then for main net I believe that's just up to the community I have I have no clue when when that would be okay yes because like I said the both deploying the contract and operating the relay is completely trustless and completely permissionless it's up to the community to start running this essentially but you know please don't start running it now because code is still being it's

ready audited first sounds good all right thank you thank you for this interview thanks to both of you um let's see if I don't know if Hector if I actually saw a couple questions so yeah I wondered if you if you want to share yeah hi guys uh one one of the question is um I don't think it's related to blob stream but like since we are CK validator I think it's fair to ask it um Can Celestia have a fully private rollup on it that's a question that someone is asking on on the on the chat and I think like since we are C validator like why not ask yeah yeah definitely you can of course

have a private rollup you can build whatever um it's it's complete the the execution the actual logic that goes over the block bites or the bites in the block are it's completely arbitrary which is kind of amazing awesome thank you so basically if you if you can build something then you can build it on Celestia I used to call cel like a universal something I forget I forget exactly what but as Evan says you can build whatever so if someone tells you oh I can build a private rollup on X on system XYZ you can build it on you can build it on Celestia as well Celestia is like allows you to literally build anything you can build on any other protocol awesome and uh another question

is like is uh blob stream like right now it's focused on ethereum but like will it be available for any other ecosystem systems in the future or it's only focusing on ethereum so the nice thing like I said because everything is trustless and permissionless there's nothing stopping anyone from say forking the solidity code and change and let's say porting it to rust and running it on salanta there's nothing stopping anyone from doing that and there's also nothing stopping anyone from relaying attestations from Celestia to any chain of their choice EG Sal it's all TR this information list and the code is all open source so you can just take the

code and put it on another blockchain that's not evm and it'll still work and this won't require any permission even from the Celestia validators you can just take the signatures that is there you take the signatures and just put them on a different CH thank you all right nice I know that uh yeah so I guess Hector thank you for this question questions someone had actually suggested another name quantum gravity bridge I guess this is an old they might be anyway is this is this sort of like what it used to be or something okay got it um but yeah thanks so much for sharing with us this uh this

insight into what this is and yeah again congrats to you I actually think now would be a great time to invite the all of the folks who are here kind of backstage with us back on the stage to do maybe like a bit of a cheers we want to say congrats to everyone yeah maybe if you're yeah okay perfect okay who okay yeah here's everybody who's been backstage this whole time very cool yeah I think you know we're we're we're hosting this from the ZK validator we're gonna be very active in the Celestia ecosystem we already have been we've been on the test net we've been part of the incentivized test net we actually ranked um yeah we're really excited to see this happening we're so excited to be able to celebrate

this with all of you I guess we can now raise our cup Mustafa I saw you filled it up very good uh congrats to all the entire team for all the work that you did um I can just imagine that you feel a lot of relief and excitement but obviously there's still a lot coming so yeah um I since I see a few folks from kind of the community side like yes it was actually I think you and I who kind of brainstormed this to to do this this event but yeah tell us a little bit what to expect from the community or what's next is there any events we should be looking out for is there anything on the horizon hey yeah um So Def connect is coming up so we have a lot of exciting

events happening we got game night it's going to happen at the Istanbul sistern it's like a really beautiful venue very historic um we're going to have like a lot of onchain games a lot of board games Super Smash Bros um and we're also participating in E Istanbul there'll be a hackathon with a bunch of a bunch of bounties happening so yeah it would be really really exciting um in terms of events uh longterm from the community side um is is mentioned the Celestia Improvement proposal process so everyone look out for that we're g to Kickstart that soon with the core devs um gonna be really really um big moment for Celestia really excited very cool amazing and hi Renee we just wanted to

bring you on because we're friends congratulations wooo thank you nice all right well I think that mostly wraps up um I don't know if anyone else has anything left to say we I mean we definitely you know if if people are looking for validators to stake to and you like what we do please do stake to us we're called ZK validator just so you know that it's actually a different company from the podcast behind me the validator is is the group that's hosting this but yeah please do stake to us if you can and I don't know if we have anything else to say so I guess we'll sign off thanks everybody bye thanks again bye

congrats for