zkSummit - ZK0x02 - Privacy Preserving Sidechains - Igor Barinov (POA Network)

17 Sept 2018 · 52:05

Recorded at the Zero Knowledge Summit ZK0x02 in Berlin, Igor Barinov of POA Network presents on privacy-preserving sidechains. The talk covers zkSNARK applications for sidechain privacy as part of the summit's broader focus on zero-knowledge topics and cryptographic privacy techniques for blockchain networks.

Speakers

Topics

Transcript

and I'm I'm Inga from geo a network and POA stands for prefer Authority just kinda stretch to be here right with because our authorities is usually it's not about it's not about privacy right when we've helped authorities we have less privacy than we want to and when we when we started the the POS IG the idea was you know how to make corn life experience but in the public network right how can we boost revenue network like : but with some security assumptions a part about this protocol

and put it in a in a hostile environment of public Internet and when I think about side chains like why do we need them so that's my that's my favorite part to talk about science we really can change and make different types of networks and it's much easier to experiment for example simple computation is what you know many people talking about and if you compare any side chain of work of a theorem to a theorem itself you'll see that the price of computations is much less expensive and will not have cheaper computation we can make you more affordable services and and this is platform with for

example or yes we can can get faster mark adoption right because it's expensive to build of this network first applies usually sizes trying to compare each other you know how fast their blocks are or how many transactions per second they're making I think faster places is important to get a better user experience for users right and when we think about you know what is protecting this new site is what what is differentiator from from the safe before a canonical network we can experiment with new consensus algorithm but but basically with more experiment with

variable control algorithms high-spade yes yeah you can come closer and there's new forms of zebra control for example proposed a Port Authority can and can help us to build horizontally scalable Network means that if the parameters of the first network is not enough for us so we can look in spin off one more network and make this network as secure the original network right if you follow the same rules and the original network is secure we can build energy efficient networks which is quite important thinking about proper forest work is taking about 1% of electricity worldwide

well and having all this stuff for obviously can have legal benefits of the centralization when you first forget about why do we need decentralized technology it's not about no security or all ideas here it's about regulation and there are multi for example in the u.s. there are multiple decisions by FinCEN that allows us to build public networks mind them and not being you know my transmitter services all right if we keep the sense of decentralisation within the network and it when we started Toa my first question was like okay is it possible that real people with

publicly available identity will create their own money right and then many restrictions not possible well at least in the u.s. at Sur it's legal since 2014 and and that's that's a big benefit of new forms of zipper control that we can get advantages of horizontal scalability and energy-efficient address but also we can keep illegal benefits of decentralization with new consensus algorithms with new forms of zipper control like PSO DPOs or POA we can get benefits using Unchained governance with launching governance networks so I can decide about parameters of my signals or broadly

their nose for example I can increase some computational resources or or agree on some form of resources like in cosmos or Euros or they can upgrade it when network will get more more usage right so it's also it's easier to perform protocol upgrades when there is a supermajority who can vote for for protocol update and the network will update and we can see this in new generations of neither excel like polka dot and tells us and POA where today's type of protocols have did exist on consensus level well also the 17 governance can give some transparency which we don't have any proper port networks how decisions are made who

voted for them and so forth when we start sidechains it's good that we can customize distribution we can play with new security models like have hard spoons which I will talk about soon where we start networks without prima and without inflation at all so like great networks without first economic incentives but still viable because can be used for with with the interoperability protocols they can be they can be used with which tokens from another network and also we can play with fair self-sustainable protocols it's a kind of I think that not many developers so

for a new network think about okay guys you raise money on a crowd sale and after you spread this my new favorite okyun you spend your token and what's next right how are you going to support your network after that and self-sustainable protocol cane can create a conditional inflation which will support ongoing maintenance or or any of these networks right for us this we have models similar to us where the network from the second year will create additional emission this emission will be decided by validators how to spend it on R&D or an apartment or or hold it for for some for other people okay so we

have all these interesting ideas around side chains and we see that people experiment with different types of cycles right and when we think about use cases for for public watches and cryptocurrencies know what says like first use case for us it's a what cryptocurrency right cryptocurrencies dip depends what is the second use case second use case usually is anyone i ciose tokens that's what bring a lot of attentions experiment put it on the second place right was what is the 30th keys and you know many people think that 30 Tuesday's can be for example games or privacy-preserving transactions we don't

know yet right but privacy-preserving is something that we're talking about a lot especially here so that's why I'd like to share our view on on protocol upgrades of POA and we plan to launch one more medium network because it's it's quite easy when you're following existing protocol to to make modifications and combine from from distant parts of Rome is easy research combines some something for example let's think about okay we want to talk to create a privacy-preserving TVM say cheney and you know when we build something small we can we can easily easily try some new ideas you know like to build something to break to

repeat and then together again for example if you remember your note proves in in a theorem designed to impart fort requires some math person right and this Martha is is quite expensive in in current design term card fort and we think that can be produced or unsightly it can be reduced and this type of transaction can be it can be easily built on the sightings and we think that we can we can take some industry best practices and combine them with uh known sh e attaching some for example

censorship resistant consensus algorithm and some surveillance resistant networking player and some transaction privacy for example smart contracts and at some into a bility and combining all these things we can really get some new type new type of shirt and this side chain which all chart you can perform these functions right so our new side chain called zoo so it will have a censorship resistant consensus so in both when we think about censorship it's it's both like we think about external censorship and internal censorship means that bodies can try to censor some types of transaction within the network and

the consensus algorithm show to protect users from from from this type of attack and also that network can be under DDoS and this is internal censorship usually used by state-level adversaries when they you know save trying to split a network for DDoS and network and so far for this censorship resistant consensus we plan to use honey badger 50 and I'm going to talk about this consensus algorithm in next slide also this the sidechain it will started with in a heart full mode so in first Goodman mode means that it will not have pre mine so on zero tokens want another

four start and it will not have any emission within so negative currency of this side chain can be breached from another chain so we can use a two-way peg bridge and send for example film from the film to the this zoo chain and this bridge the video will be in native G in native currency of this zoo chain right so for example in film you have 100 million of museum tokens but you don't use them and you can bridge for example handle tokens to news 18's these tokens as a native currency of this side chain for what it is is interesting because they will get there with fee for for for including transactions in plugs

so they are motivated to to keep this state of the network and consensus always network the second idea which we borrowed from from from pure network to the site it is about launching governance it helped us to put strap on launched the network which operates for 10 months and these news 18 will use master nodes and but will have different type of ceremony so this network will put strapped with my service which will be auctioned in public and my cells will use on chain governance to modify what we call validator self while data set is

a list of all ages we can create blocks in the network so usually that's about it up set is the essential part of purpose of any proper authority type of network usually we think about Authority as a centralized admission consensus but in period network this consensus bootstrapped by initial ceremony in the English ceremony this consensus was created with first initial set of validators and after access to this validator said was given to to validators so they on board knew well data sensors so they don't need to to rely to a new third party and their independent parties within to this validator says so that's how people

Network achieves a form of decentralization okay so essential part networking clear and level one of zoo chain is honey badger 50 so this consensus algorithm created by NT Miller and 2016 and I think we're one of the first gene which implemented this paper in full with all tests so I hear that honey badger is a is a DFT out algorithm it means that all blocks created by Valda the final so honey badger is is asynchronous it means that there are no assumptions about timing for for block

creation for example if the network is under heavy DDoS attack the the blocks will be created slowly it's not likely intended meant when you when block is not greater than in in in a specific timeframe algorithm is not working censorship resistant internal sent at a synchronous and create a synchronicity of honey badgers external censorship resistance right so if the network is on the D dose then then Part A this will create blocks slowly right but also we

have internal censorship what if sample details will try to send them some some transactions for for for this censorship resistance would have something that some internal part of money budget well details of Western notions in honey badger accurate and unencrypted data and if the networking environment are optimal then each node see all all messages but in adversary scenarios environment bandit has a great only on a subset of of Dayton but after the block is created the validators agreed on full

set of data so that that assumptions of the algorithms and and actually this algorithm was not implemented because it's one of the hardest to implement consensus algorithm here you can see some some links to our implementation we have a rest area which implement seven sub protocols of the algorithm and threshold if delivery and the peer-to-peer network with a honey badger which you know you can use for for claims of this consensus algorithm so star protocols there are one two three four five six separate across described in paper and and and some sub protocols

which we created ourselves extended the algorithm they do here why we needed to have done any kind of budget because they're you know the original protocol didn't support extend extension to totally stop our data so each time you need to add or remove all data from the network you have to reinitialize the consensus here we have a we added a special role called observer so this role observe all whole system messages and if validators voting for a for a new validator from from from a list of observers this observers is imported to to a list of all ages so it's a it's important to remember difference between

the consensus algorithms and simple control mechanisms so concerns to celebrate degrees on on a set of messages synchronized between between validators basically and zippo control is this mechanism decides who are validated right and in the in in P way and do network this zero control mechanism is implemented in smart contracts and smart contracts are hooked to consensus and they're part of the consensus right so validators have tabs where each father can propose a new validator to at least Bollinger said or proposed removal differ from the

volatile set so governance of this networks in hands of apologies so summarizing gate will have a cryptographic consensus which protects network from censorship external and internal censorship and the question is how to distribute nodes and we think that in this zone at work we'll distribute them using public option so world basically sell this Meister notes on somewhere if you have any ideas how to distribute the initial notes yeah sure yeah that's why it's trusted ceremonial

bread all the time and well when when we when we would step your network who had a roll Meister of ceremonies who created the network and he created first set of keys and distributed it history initial validators and after bodied as other numerators and Pilatus whom myself ceremony doesn't know that more about data stand about it st imported so he has less friends of him but in the network but I'd say yeah all all bootstrapping sir would like most bootstrapping ceremony so attack vector would think about this type of consensus and zero control that if you think that

consensus itself at is secure and audited and proven and production but you don't like set up all data so you can bootstrap the network yourself right you can take this [Music] [Music]

yeah well there multiple approaches right so to solve this problem with I'll talk about how to put certain network with just one say that honeybees is fully implemented with the paper and and the extent that with dynamic honey badger and some others are protocols also we extended it with some other interesting options and because there's a common coin algorithm within the debater we assume that honey badger also can produce randomness which is very interesting for for if you don't break

networks right because there is no there is no good way to produce randomness on EDM chains at the moment the produce randomness on consensus level and we think that this will bring more use cases to idiom based teams right like gambling games and so forth yeah algorithm is fully implemented you can you can you can run Hydra better with high pressure with networking Clare modified and that's great for for experimentation so if you're interested in a building this algorithm into your product feel free also it shows pretty good

throughput transaction throughput parameters for example now we start at thousand transaction per batch with ten nodes and bandwidth to make a bit between nodes and then network like 100 milliseconds which is like normal condition we can see that thousand transactions per second produced like it each second we have a batch of thousands transactions per second agreed by paid attendance which is quite good for for for the synchronous 15 consensus with final blocks so that's what we can get from from honeybadger easily thousand transactions per second final blocks well as actually that we don't need this in current state of

depth because there is there is no app depth which which means that the transaction throughput in the moment right so just one say that honey budget if T is done and this is essential part of of our privacy-preserving shot right censorship resistant consensus with both external and external McCann's internal censorship protection so that that's that's about your question so initial participation bodies I said decided by trusted ceremony so the ceremony and after changes in this volatile said decided by watching governance so details when we when we bootstrapped the

network myself ceremonies will create some some initial keys and lock them in action smart contract and after my cell node seats will be distributed using the option public action so market will determine the price and determine who will get the seat and after my signals using crunching government governance can modify a list of all data's on their own the corporate just a just a simple view of how it works for for TV network so this is a this is not for zoo Network this is for PA for existing network yeah each holiday they can propose a ballot and you know information about all pets

available on chain so it's a part of consensus and and you can see that for example for this belt all data's voted 15 yes 0 against out of 21 to change a key or validator so all governance events are available to two third party and also list of all it is also available to audit and review well they bought it as in zoo network will be without identity but you can you can check how they change their attained see how they changed the ownership of or included new my students so this is a part of governance and also the important part of affronti process which

we developed for 440 or network and we would like to use for for this privacy-preserving chart is an interrupt protocol so our intellectual ability protocol based on initial version of parity bridge after we forked out in November so it's a it's a separate product and we launched what we think the first cross chain to repair a bridge back in May and this bridge is a production just wanna show you some some stats and and explain how this virtually will be used in privacy-preserving chart so current bridge transferred about 30 million source of tokens back and forth for 125,000 folders and this bridge

calls 5 million tokens at the moment on both sides so it's native to Dec 20 bridge users from Sochi can block their foreign zone on on safety and the the bridge will create g20 representation of this token on a fear of mine net interesting here that between two networks or a group there is a group of independent validators so this part it is interpreted not affiliated with each other so there is a decentralized consensus so on one side of the bridge decentralized consensus on another side of the bridge and also there's no signature between networks so

technically they're legally speaking this bridge not constitutes my intense meeting services so I can be used without qhc and AML and if you've heard about stories about you know shape-shift and and other services now regulators are looking to to pose all this centralized interoperability solutions without q18 so bridges can be a short immediately available solution for this type of transactions so good think about briefs that bridge can be used not only for like one hope but for multiple transactions and that we think that would be usage for for our privacy preserving sidechain for example if I want to transfer twenty thousand so

spirit talking from Peru Network lithium network I have to press one button and also this is check that I understand what I'm doing so I'm sending $1,600 from network to network in the moment and it takes on the on the on the one foot right and diamond possession of my private key and there is no party who can stop me from sending this money there's none of body this for responsible from for christine transaction can modify my transactional blockage they need to need to break this consensus between them so two of them should pollute and well not not to delay my transaction but it's something that

legally called public public service by by private actor and if they agreed to follow the protocol they have to do this or stuff right they cannot change the protocol themselves so that's what they agreed on and well the the breeze is waiting for a plus because if you amendment and pure Network are not final because their consensus is not final not like honey badger fifty which is instantly final and we don't need this type of checks and after the the validators waiting for for employers they will submit the transaction to another network and they will mean new tokens so this way we transferred $1,600 from network to network and this bridge token

will be immediately available on film network and can be used on bank wall or other other networks why do we need them on there because we have access to other liquidity providers for example we can turn this dystopian Travancore and one bank where we can convert them to other yes it when tokens or we can use multi-hop transactions think about this we take a native talking on sighting right send it to privacy preserving short break chain of custody and sent from this privacy preserving child to another gene to if you end on inferior we have this clean tokens which we can use some money exchange and understand

that there are some negative use cases for for this type of multi-hop transactions but but also there are some some use pieces why we all here right and that's that's important part of why we built what we were we are building privacy preserving side chain to have it as a chart in multi hawk interrupt protocols okay so dr. tokens received last step took a lot of time right because because of you know what he's you know years but because last transaction was on a few minute and blacks on a field minute you know full almost all of them or

sausage mind right so somebody just - don't include transactions at all but most blocks are clogged right so that's why we need savings also okay so after we transferred these years between tokens we have here and you can see that you know 1620 which is a year seat when the presentation of this native token is available on online net and after we can go to bank or and bank or we can sell this talking to - to another led to another token rate we can but well we need to switch to my net and after and after main net will have this to meet when we were to intervene available and

we can sell example thousands of talking about something I don't know whatever BMC don't know what is it you don't want to sell sorry state said something ok let's take another one storm so let's buy some stolen [Music] ok so we just we we we should sell it and ok ok so transaction is the progress and we converted native token so we use a Tony without Geo HTML convert that one talking to another without your HTML but

we still have chain of custody so it's easy to track but with fur this chart which and we can break this chain so why do we need try to I not to do this on chain well again cryptography is expensive on ethereal minute and and the network itself is plug and also the network is under surveillance and most services we use a connectivity remark no centralized eye computer and most likely they sell our data and all or at least share so that that's why this anti-surveillance things can be easily implemented on site genes for

example but it is pink in agreement protocol upgrades and I have all the latest run over for example women routing what prevents us from doing the same unknown fear magnet right if it might not require CDP and it's harder to implement for example the Tor network between all - well it's not it's not interesting for them but here all all my certain holes can I can operate in over ITP or tour and yeah that's that's that's how we see this shortest so that's the second part which is a which is interrupt and the the missing part is what actually will will make the

transaction privacy and the from from our perspective there are multiple good solutions here and some of them represented here and we think that combining flexibility of side chains plus interrupt protocols plus censorship resistant consensus algorithm and new form of zebra control longer mechanisms which are which incentivize what it is to act for interest of the network but also allows users to quit the network easily right if you are if the market cap of this privacy-preserving chart is like hundred either it's quite easy to so if something is wrong with this chart it's it's quite easy to go to another

chart or community well forked and will follow some rules but also this the shots will be essential part of multi hope interoperability protocols to break chain of custody basically that's what is important yeah that's that they did the main part of our talk and yeah any any questions right yes a we were working with parity and there this this concerns a great

will be embedded into parity client so it's a great and also we have our own implementation of the theorem client which is a almost pricing design some tests so we're close to full client it's called mana magnetical is written in elixir which is a language graded for distributed systems so we're working on our own implementation of all this plant and this plant will have its privacy preserving features so it's our interest and also you know that's that's the first use case when people will transfer assets from networks and network it's important but you know there are other recently I I traveled back to my home

country to Russia and presented a game which is deployed on pure a network called operator and in Russia it is illegal to to call cocoa and weed weed so you have to you have to replace this and and I played on stage and I had to in order because it was live-streamed right if if people will see the time I'm playing this and then naming Coco I can go to jail for promoting an act or something right but yeah that's that game illustrates how how fast and uh and an interesting side genes are four four four four four awards applications when

I say how fast is yours and that is not working yes yeah any other questions [Music] [Music] yeah protocol support protocol describes threshold thresholds in in any public voting for example to voting of a portal to a theater any validated from

validator said can propose a ballot and minimal time for this but to be open is 72 hours right a minimum required vote is 3 but while the others can think okay we need more time or we need more votes and they can upgrade the protocol and increase this threshold but there is a need of supermajority to meet this threshold and this this consensus is is audited by by multiple companies the one of the most well known as change security committee historic so they they order that the the one chain governance and basically it worse how it's designed and it supports not only this changing

profile either settlement rating thresholds but also supports native to native bridge you just when you think native a native bridge it's hard to implement because usually consensus algorithms within cryptocurrency have very fixed emission rate right and this emission rate is usually hard to change right like changing confirmation rate in the field right now like from 3 to 2 it's very funny and also should be approved by - right and - can say yes can say no so that that's that that's hard but with native to native bridge

you have a you have a hook from from governance Marc contracts and if this governance my conscious can say ok if a coin is locked on affiliate networks and validators for a subset of auditors of this Zoo Network seen this event on the on on the field Network then they allowed to mine the same amount of native tokens on on zoo network and but you know what does what it is a hacked right so that's why we put limits and quarters on smart contracts so we know like we know damage

that can be caught post by by hikers or by attackers for example on period network it's 3 million tokens on this bridge so if for about it exactly what data to all these result of the effect then we know the damage is 3 meter and pure tokens that maximum that we can also on the gene and basically your partner set updated by validators they have governing steps and some and also it's important not only about right not only about how you change this body that said but also how you get information from the party so we have for statistics which is which is a portion for governance process to advanced your browser so body this can run these tools

on their computer and they can see how our bodies are voting for example here on this screenshot which you can see that mr. Jefferson flowers who's about this a from California Imperial Network Perry is not participating in in 46 percent of of governance events right now other world leaders can ask you know why they're not participating and participating and that's that's kinda decentralized tool no one can stop you from wearing and networking getting this governance events and also there is one more tool with notification services so you can subscribe to this notification events and you can get information when this governance events are happening and there is no one who can stop you from getting disciplines rights rights that's a part of transport

governor's this part is beautiful for for POA it works works well so well data imported more and more about data and remember sample data and pet Sam you know lost keys and so forth so this is a process idea which works without us it's just it's their own network they they they create ballots they have their own you know games within and and we think that the same governance can be used to bootstrap new networks even though we don't know who are about it kabbadi the server we can use it and and get benefits and what what is the benefit of having this type of function governance the main benefit is that you can become launched this network and get security

assumptions with much cheaper price right for this you don't need this proof award type or thing the operator I don't know so this like this is an example well that's interesting that's right because this game can be easily parent another short in China or in Thailand right because when you to be successful in this game you have to abide seat and and bring the seats to another district and and grow the seats and get we can sell this weed and sell this we get profit and do it again and again and again and when it is someone with weed

you rate him and they get his wood right so that I think this is a most investor RPG game on few platforms and it's usually so all open if you sort of sightings but it's it's it's possible to imagine that this type of game will be banned or restrict somewhere in some restriction so this game like instance of this game can be deployed on a privacy-preserving sidechain where we don't know who call data server network exists somewhere and tour called a desert I connected to it to each other and door but RPC you can find our PC somewhere but yeah you cannot basically

cannot stop that because don't know who operate this network and operate the separatist Network because they have incentives they get transaction fee and this transaction fee cover their expenses for their hosting so that's that's economic of this of this Zoo EVM chains yeah and we think that guess price can be pegged to US dollars or BCC it's an unpopular idea but um so network of effort tell it to a BCC or two after US dollar that's it's easier to for for for games like like the operator it's easier to have this you know stable guess price and to an economy so far now

questions it's part of it's part of any project so we decided to actually resume there is an idea in the last community a tour to get all these crypto libraries and combine them like one package and support this for chorus community so it's a nickel a food from parties thinking about this and that's uh we also said or to remove it from honey badger and yeah it's well documented so which tests and details

so what else nothing so gays let's play the operator it's most advanced to Deb oh let me show you let me show you future so that's what I like a lot so usually when we when we use tabs right we use meta mask because it's essential part and just think about meta mask it's like one Google account someone can upload it binary and this binary will even steal coins from you know all the people who use meta mask so it's a it's very dangerous thing right and we don't control mathematic deployment we cannot say okay guys we

don't want to use it ended these securities second party that meta mask is a external link to the application right you have to install it and it's not a part of the website but this thing as for port is it's a SD key with a wallet which is embedded into the web page so you remember when I when I submit a transaction here I had this this is a fork of meta mask bias which is intended to be faster and with optimized forgives but this window

popped up right and like every time I have this meta mask window popped up but in this port is wallet I can I can let's find someone I don't need to read this person but you can see that like meta mask like notification appear here and anything do like this right and I can submit transaction without metal mask so games can can embed wallet within the game interface meta mess

abused web application oh yeah most know the this this thing is not using them as fellow female I don't matter have meta mascara it just is just SDK embedded within the the the web page yeah private keys are encrypted by my passport and transport is fetched and stored somewhere I'm saying transaction on in the browser so every time it's death you can become download this page from your

computer it's definitely there is not back in here well yeah that's that's that so that's a problem with any web app right that's right but but it's a yeah in local storage you cannot expect

[Music] [Music] but still you control you control your your private key so in some form right not-not-not the game and an experience is much smoother yeah there's there's no pop ups you don't need to install additional extension you can play mobile you can open Safari and device so that's that's the future yeah yes indeed the the most exciting thing

about about this about this game is that a coal economy is based on on Puri and when I when they do any action for example now I want to buy some some seat to increase to the world when I buy and prayed to produce weed this twenty BOE will go into economy and they will raise price of weed and hope and so people can go to this location and sell there we don't walk and get profits because what I purchased went to the hand okay so I

purchased for twenty pre-2008 it is in the economy of Jamaica village I go to Chinatown I travel [Music] yeah that's right so the the reason there is no back-end server here yeah so it's all mentioned so it's all about money and somehow like I try well yeah it's a it's a well it's on my chain up here it was on the filter button pyramids are you know it's expensive and slow it's basically very migrated from from a pair of Georgia puri and here I can produce so I can go to produce and

they can produce weed or of course 73 cents right to produce it and I can produce eight ounce of coke which is a 92 cents and now I can go to another location and sell and but what while I am having it some people can attack me and then try to get it from me that and I like the the experience and the speed and you know that your transactions always included and blood and you don't feel transaction cost you know this how much each item cost in the game and wild prices going up and down

you can see some difference but also they can tweak process what what these right now it's about 60 transactions 66 zero but you know the problem here is not about transactions per second is how to get how to get users as let's see how many transactions yeah it's our plus you can see that there are 60 transactions per second now like water everything right it's a eight minute guess yeah right so just to follow you here magnet what

what yeah you can do we can no more so that that's that's a good think about if you if you remember is that about data's came to protocol upgrades right and vertical scalability they can say what you guys were having more transactions than we can hold now no you know new games can go to another cheat or we can increase our hardware let's all increase our hardware on all nodes so my cell phones can make this vertical scale of your decision and increase from eight medium I don't attended on 15 you know whatever that's that's that's a good thing about watching governance because

you cannot get this agreement on proof of whatever phantoms on puree they can decide yeah and if if token holders will not like it they can migrate their tokens using bridges that's a good thing about bridges if you don't like them at work if you use bridge and most your assets okay see you on next panel okay guys that's it