ZK Podcast: NFTs & Rarible with Alex Salnikov

Transcript

[Music] welcome to xero knowledge a podcast where we talk about the latest in zero knowledge research and the decentralized web the show is hosted by me anna and me frederick this week i chat with wearable co-founder alex salnikov we talk about the wearable project and how the nft space is developing i also get to ask all the questions i always wanted to know about nfts but was too afraid to ask frederick was not able to make this episode but he returns next week now

before we start in i want to say thank you to this week's sponsor trailer bits trail of bits has recently published a new guide for building secure contracts with their crytic offering krytik is a sas based github application created by trailer bits that continuously assures that your ethereum smart contracts are safe and functional it reports build status on every commit and runs a suite of security analyses so you can get immediate security feedback check out the guide which i've added in the show notes for tips on how to build security into your dapps from the start as well as how to use the trailer bits suite of tools for automated vulnerability detection so thank you again trail of bits now here's my conversation with alex about wearable

so this week i'm catching up with alex salnikov the co-founder of wearable and the chief product officer there welcome to the show alex thanks anna thank you for having me here so this episode we're going to be talking about wearable the project we're going to kind of revisit nfts once again just recently we had dieter from dapper labs on the show and we also talked about nfts a little bit there there's also an episode we did i think last year or two years ago on the erc 721 standard both of those i'll probably add in the show notes of this episode there might be someone listening who doesn't know what an nft is it might be a good place to start by defining it here on the show so what is an nft nft is a new standard for talking on ethereum

network the best way to think about it and the best way i like to think about it as just it's a digital light uh it feels like an item that belongs to you you have it in your wallet it's tangible it it feels like like a card from a collectible card game from one point of view it has a visual attached it has a name it has a description so it basically like probably the first occurrence of digital items at all the way it works on the serum or any other network is just you have a unique number associated with the item and this item is basically it is your item another way to think about them as just

a unique record on the blockchain that you own something so just consider the blockchain there's a big registry of anything and you own something on it and that can be represented as a form of nft cool do nfts like in your experience do nfts live purely in the digital form or they sometimes also attach to like a real world thing that's the most difficult question about all things uh in blockchain because people always try to touch them into physical world and and this is super hard to achieve because all that exists on jn is more or less enclosed in unchained environment

and the only way to attach something on chain to the physical world is to create incentive that would motivate you to have an actual presentation like dai did with the digital door it isn't tied to the door or like in the real world but you have an incentive that allows you for for the dye to have the same value as the off-chain things so uh sometimes nft can be tied to the physical world for example on wearable some people have after the purchasing of nft you have an instruction how to obtain the physical copy of it but it creates a lot of a lot of hurdles because if the physical copy then moved

how do we verify that on-chain copy is also moved so it's all about this creating this thai and i don't believe it's solved yet um so tell me a little bit more about like what wearable is and maybe when you started it oh yeah we started bravo about a year ago it was a beautiful sunny day uh when we sit with the team and we were brainstorming like okay what's the next big thing in blockchain and almost all things on blockchain are purely financial though those are numbers yields profits and all of this so the space a little bit lacking of emotions and that was the whole idea behind

working with nft because it provides you with your whole like bunch of emotions and i believe that ownership is an emotion also so when i say that it feels like an item you you have this experience of owning something nfc space is under explored it's small i believe like 120 million worth of nfts was traded so far on in the space at all and that that number is small compared to any other financial stuff on blockchain that's why we believe that we need to expand the space and that's the whole idea of variable available initially is the issuance platform

and marketplace so what we were trying to achieve is just having this slick experience of creating nnft and listing in on the marketplace just like 30 second experience cool what does it feel like what i mean i actually have explored the platform but for listeners like what exactly does a user see when they they get to this platform so this is like a user-facing outward-facing we're not talking about like low level code stuff this is like any user can actually arrive on the wearable website and do something what what can they do okay so again from the very start that was just two pages create nft a simple form when you upload

a picture you set the name you put the description and there is a small toggle putting on sale and you put the ethereum price on it and voila that's on the marketplace now it's listed and the second page is just the marketplace that had all of the items listed for sale in in just one single big we definitely outgrown that in terms of the number of nft on sale so the discoverability is one of our focuses we will solve this uh but yeah that's the whole structure of it do you know how many nfts are like how many of these unique digital pieces are listed right now i don't have the exact number of listed nfgs but i do believe that

around 40 000 of nfgs were created on the platform ah cool and so when you do one of these like you upload this thing is each one represented one time or would you make duplicates of that that was one of the big introductions that we created in may we supported the next nft standard rc1155 that allows you to create additions multiple editions of the single nft and only paying gas price once so you actually can create almost any number of nfts just in a single transaction ten thousand one hundred thousand and these would be identical this would be identical yeah it's called semi-funchable that's that

interesting and that's actually maybe that's something to for our listeners also to understand the nft and is it actually stands for non-fungible tokens all based on this erc721 standard which we talked about in a previous episode this is actually the first time i'm hearing about the erc what did you say 1125 1155 erc 1155 like was that a proposal that your group put together or was this like something that the community was working on for a while this is something that community was working for a while actually we didn't like put together this proposal as wearable i believe though we kind of picked it up early so before us probably engine supported 1155s and probably

opencl did that okay i understand what you're describing like the problem that you might be facing the idea that like now you actually have quite a bit of this and you're gonna have to take sort of search principles or like curation principles from maybe some web 2 products into this web 3 project because to like help people actually figure out what they want or find what they're looking for especially if you're talking about like 40 000 or more items well i wouldn't make a distinction between web 2.0 then web 3.0 here because uh i've heard a lot that variable feels like a web 2.0 site because

we've invested our efforts heavily in ux and ui but what i'm talking about here it's more or less an abstract concept that we as a marketplace we have to connect buyers and sellers in a better way and right now we have a leaderboard for this for example and search that allows you to dig into the stuff that's going on in the marketplace deeper but in the end we need to have create this principal functionality of matching buyers with the sellers and actually they can be done on chain using our governance soaking we are intended to solve this in a vap 3.0 manner got it i actually want to come back to the governance token in a bit

but for now i still want to understand like one of the things that has always left me curious is like what do you do with them like you buy this digital item it's like usually i mean when i've looked at it it's usually like a picture or a gif or something what do you do with it like so you own it i know that you can sell it onwards maybe for more money if you want to or does that does the price usually like stay from sale to sale okay let's get a step back here so i feel like the whole idea of nfts and why it picked up for the art market first is that nfts as a technology was able to recreate

a set of psychological aspects of ownership okay so in the real world we have a thing that is called social signaling uh you you can show to the world that you have something that you spend a specific amount of money on on purchasing something that can be an expensive car or purse or anything and this is this is a signaling that of status with without things and the art market i believe that nft is again just recreated a specific set of mechanics working in the art market so right now this is more close to the public art

i would quote andy from snark art here i i really like how he describes it so imagine you have this sculpture that is staying somewhere uh on the square publicly in the city and there is a little tag here like who owns it probably something like this happening with the art with inside nft space now so everyone knows that there is a specific author that he has several editions of his specific artwork and there are people who are publicly like own them if this artist then gains more popularity or his idea that he transferred to the world that his idea that he

conveyed to the world while his artwork uh getting more more popular getting more traction then the the work will be more pricey hmm are you finding people are also sharing this like you talk about it being in the public square but currently the public square is partly the wearable platform like you can see that somebody has it like you see the creator you can see who owns it but like do people put it in other places of course they they do it one big example of showing off or just exhibiting the artworks that you purchased is meta verses there are various form of games that allow you to to take your nft

and display it in the virtual reality world one big example of this are meta verses um there are several games in the virtual reality in which you can just hop and look around and there are exhibitions cryptovoxels decentral and insomnium space vr all of them have some sort of artists exhibiting their works or collectors for example in the sony space vr there is an exhibition of maca museum of crypto art big collectors from wearable they collected something like three hundred thousand dollar worth of krita art and they are exhibiting it

wow i forgot to ask this question just before but like you talked about how many unique pieces there are but yeah how much like do you know the value on wearable i think you did just mention it a bit earlier but like what is the value of all of these nfts so far i don't believe we can value all of the nfts at the specific point in time because i would like to get back to this question but it's actually hard to value the nft and the only way to value an nft is to sell it so until it's sold you don't know the real price of it and after it's sold you you also don't know the real price of it because if the price has decreased you don't know about it

i see and you so it's just on that point of sale where you have a sense of it do you know how much the value of things for sale is right now i'm trying to get just sort of a ballpark idea of like the size of this thing you just mentioned sort of the 300k that's like the value of that exhibit so that already gives us like an inkling of like how big the market could be this is one small or one portion of it i believe the best proxy answer to that question is just the total volume on that was like a total volume of sales are wearable and that's around 11 million dollars from the very beginning of the platform and i believe just like

five of them happened on last month oh wow really you're seeing a lot more action right now i guess um the whole nfc space it seems more action that's amazing okay so now i want to hear a little bit more about the the nft governance token that you have recently have you actually is it is it already live is this something that's been introduced or is going to be introduced it went live on july 13. okay cool so you have this governance token what is it what does it do i believe there is a bigger picture to all of the governance tokens that are like circulating right now in the space and the whole idea is that when

covenant stroking allows you basically to cover in the platform there are various worms of governing that's mostly some sense of voting of what will happen with the platform what what should be happening with the platform voting for some system parameters for the features for better stuff but i believe that's just the beginning of all of it but the whole idea in general is to put the users who the platform is made for at the wheel of the development of the platform and that's the powerful idea there are several venture funds that are working with the thesis that the next set of successful companies like google

amazon or any other company in web 2.0 will be built on the principle of community governance and ownership of users i believe there was a conversation at some point about that twitter should basically belong to its users [Music] the thing i wonder about like i mean this is a more general governance question or issue but it's this idea that like if you look at like voting in general and like the world the turnout's not that high and so i wonder like when it comes to governance tokens on these blockchain projects d5 or nft are the users interested enough in how it's managed or do they kind of want like other people to make those decisions for

them i mean i think empowering them is very good but i wonder if every single decision if like most of the community would even care here we're going into the deeper questions of the whole governance of this world and i believe a lot of people [Laughter] have been questioning themselves with those set of difficulties but in general of course voting like just plain voting on every single thing is inefficient so we consider governance as the part of the product and if you can make the better governance tools that also beneficial for the platform so right now we see the early days of community governance

probably the plane voting it was the first thing that was discovered here but there are various forms of voting delegation for example you can delegate your vote to somebody else to perform decisions on your own this goes to various set of like next difficulties like what's your incentive to delegate that word some people uh there are platforms that are doing staking and when you delegate your vote on behalf of someone uh you receive a portion of their staking rewards but that comes to the problem of buying votes so this whole world of governance is just unwinding at our like eyes side basically totally there is dao

stuck they have a technology called holographic consensus i believe that's an interesting idea of something like staking on the proposals that you believe will be passed and that decreases the quorum for that proposal to be to be passed so there are various techniques of of making this process more efficient and and this is what this whole governance race will be all about about making the governance efficient now in your case in the case of the wearable token what's it called it's called raring rari it's the rari token what does it do so like governance and defy i

think is somewhat understood because it's this idea of a lot of it will be like voting for emissions it's like voting for an amount amounts like the value of something here or there and it's all connected to a financial system in your case what you kind of mentioned that gov the governance would be used potentially for like product development but like what is the vision for like these governance tokens and what they're actually going to be used for in your particular case in our particular case the overall global vision resembles what happens in defy right now so okay in the foreseeable future we will have a variable down that manage the protocol we would have

uh upgradable contracts we will have all the dow making decisions on how do we upgrade the contract what feature do we develop probably decision on the missions too so the overall idea is all the same but the way how we get there is a little bit different because basically at variable we have much more need for community to perform decisions on the lower level basis and what i mean by saying that is that for example we have a moderation system or we have a curation system right now we rely heavily on community when taking the decisions who do we

verify who do we remove from the platform who we need to highlight this all can be done in a more formal way like more more formalized in code and more like more strict but still with the help of community to to make all of this and that's the big part of our roadmap is how do we involve the community and the governance token in making the decisions that really matters to them in this case what you're talking about is curation in a way right you're you'd be using this governance principle to help curate the actual platform i.e verifying and potentially like ranking or yeah

at making groups about what are the best who are the what are quality what is interesting it sounds like is that true did i understand that right yeah that's completely true so we have been avoiding of the curation process done by ourselves because it's an easy slippery slope to to fall into because if you became the single source of truth you've become the single point of failure so we are avoiding this and that basically created some problems for us but long term well we'll have the better decisions for this so this curation decentralized curation is again one of the biggest ideas on the road map that we are about to

perform we want to allow everybody to curate the stuff that they believe is the best one and our job for the platform is just to put the best items on top that that's what how we defined it we got to create a tooling a system that would allow our users to signal what is the good stuff and what is not and then to combine all of it and to show the best stuff on top and that's the idea um going back to the token itself and like so the decision making i kind of understand now better how you imagine at least a few of the ways you could imagine this being used

but do the governance tokens do the raries like if i participate in the wearable governance using these rarity tokens do i earn something from doing that would i buy these tokens and then use them for something i'm trying to figure out like what motivates people to do it oh yeah again let's start from from the beginning here so the whole distribution of rarity governance token is based on on the several mechanics so on one of the mechanics 10 of the total supply was air dropped to various communities of nft holders in general not just on the wearable platform and actually do this would happen one more time uh so we are collecting the data of who is the

owner of nfts in general on ethereum network so those people had the rarity token when this whole started another bug portion 60 of the total supply is distributed to the people who are buying and selling stuff variable this is called marketplace liquidity mining program we are distributing 75 000 tokens each week proportional to the volume of buyers and sellers wow that is happening on the platform there i'm starting to see the defy connection yeah you're basically bootstrapping activity that's it's like instead of but like are you providing liquidity or you're doing trades kind of in some sense

that's that's the same things so what is defy in general g5 projects are just money marketplaces there is supply side and the demand side supply side provides the liquidity of money and demand side basically consumes it and this is the liquidity in terms of defy liquidity on variable is a general marketplace like uber or amazon airbnb you just have a set of buyers and sellers and you need to connect them and when you grow in a marketplace there is always this chicken and egg problem the more buyers you have the more sellers will come the more sellers will come the more buyers will go to buy their stuff

and liquidity in terms of marketplace in terms of general marketplace is just the amount of buyers and sellers that are on the platform so in a sense providing liquidity for defy is just having more money on the marketplace and when we're talking about variable providing liquidity to the variable marketplace is to have more items on the marketplace to have more sellers and more buyers and this is the liquidity in terms of the general marketplace and then the rarity token would be distributed on a i guess are you planning on doing that sort of on a regular basis it's weekly oh it's weekly and it's you're distributing it so like say i bought and sold a bunch of

nfts on the platform and i hold none at the end would i still earn these tokens yes this happens proportionally to the volume transacted okay but if i have them and then i just sit on them do i also get anything well if you have them then that means you bought them when you bought them you transacted so right now we incentivize transactions yes that's when you earn it but if you just then hold them you you won't receive any subsequent rewards so then you receive the rarity and then you i guess put it into something else to vote if you wanted to like participate in the actual governance i guess you can also buy them

yes in order to vote with your rari you need to go to the voting portal basically we use a snapshot dot page for this now that's the easiest way to vote with the tokens right now because it's off chain it's based on signature that's why your vote is free you don't need to pay gas for it and snapshot just aggregates the total wall on any specific case and it shows you results again this is subject to development and improvements we picked the snapshot as the easiest tool to go you don't need to stake your boot to your rari or anything like this

in order to vote you just need to have them by the specific block at which the voting was initiated is there in terms of the supply of these governance tokens like i guess if you're constantly emitting them then there there isn't a circulation supply max like that could continue to increase you're getting this right but uh right now there is the total supply cap it's 25 million tokens and this liquidity mining program that is emitting new tokens is here for 200 weeks that's more or less four years and this is when it will end okay but it's all subject to the governance

process also potentially talking holders can vote and change that in the foreseeable future of course this is interesting so it's like the tarouin has mentioned this on a previous episode this idea of like using like the amms and the liquidity it's just it's literally bootstrapping communities it's it's a user like a user incentive program in a way and then there's this token and then what you're trying to do with is make the token also useful after the fact so that they don't just dump it right is that always what everybody's trying to do yeah so we're creating a new utility for rari ferrari soon we will be able to buy

and sell items with varia and then again the curation and moderation so overall the whole idea is about to have the as much possible like use cases for the token as we can achieve and i like this space a lot so you said something like uh user incentives so when we talk about blockchain and incentives and user incentives we feel like we're constantly losing ground by going more abstract so g5 is money marketplaces and variables the marketplace so we just get rid of the liquidity term tied to the real crown here so we're constantly getting more and more

abstract and this whole game is all about just coordinating people the core value proposition of the whole blockchain is just we use digital signature and distributed ledger to better coordinate people to achieve the specific set of goals and our goals are to put all the digital content all digital rights all intellectual property rights on chain and coordinate people around them so that we can have a secondary market we can have initial market we can have uh just the governance we have can have provenance of all of it so this is what it's all about

and when you start to talk about like bringing in the digital rights this is a topic that i used to be very very into like a long time ago in my studies i like would read a lot about copyright law and i was for some reason this was like a thing all of a sudden i'm realizing that there could be that link that you could i mean i know that in the case of wearable you are mainly dealing with like visual entities but you could also potentially deal like this type of platform could also be used for digital rights management or like these maybe and i think the most obvious examples would be like a music thing or film or something like that where this transfer of those rights or even like distribution of them could be done through this nft process

anyway it's interesting i i don't know that you're dealing with that all are you thinking actually are you thinking past just the visual yeah totally so nfgs uh that's the whole thesis nfts are a great programmable and liquid representation of digital rights visual just the first simplest form to tie nft to video 3d models vr all of it it's coming to on chain in form of nfgs basically right now the digital right just intellectual property rights management is completely inefficient you literally need to write a contract on paper in order to do all of this it doesn't have this wall street style liquid

trading of it there is no secondary market to it and there it it's also slow in inefficient and software is the world and this part of the world will be eaten by software like like very soon wow because it's true it's like there's all the tools to like track the stuff and then it tracks back to a paper contract which is kind of ridiculous and then it has to be enforced through like actual courts where people have to get mad and sue you or i guess you two if you look on like youtube and some of the more like large con media content platforms you are seeing more immediate effects like takedowns and blocking and stuff like that but man this is super interesting it is it's

eating into that part of the process that still remains in like you know paper documents in legal offices that's cool tell me a little bit about like how one could think about like yield farming in this nft context because so far i've only heard about it like in a very defy context okay yields farming is a meme that originated in a defy world and it's just a simple explanation of this governance token report system so okay d5 is a market marketplace to to bootstrap liquidity over money marketplace you need to supply some money in it in exchange for supplying money you receive some governance soaking on top of it

and that governance token has a price and you can sell it and and that would be the exact dollar gain on your initial money supply that's why you can calculate the the exact like yield on your money supply let's say you supplied 100 is and you received 10 ease over some period of time that makes you like just your percent of yield and when we are bootstrapping the marketplace like wearable you receive governance token in exchange for trading real nfts that you created and you don't need to supply money in them in order to receive the governor's token that's why you can't calculate the exact yield on them so you don't

receive yield on your money but yourself yield on your effort on on your creative power on your like items created on your value transacted so we can't apply yield farming just words to the defile to the nft world it's a little bit different but in the end this meme is just an explanation that you can earn something by doing something and defy you supplied money and nfts you creating nfts you're trading nfgs you buy them and you sell them to another person that wants them more that that's what task is here do you think i mean the thing about the governance tokens

i i don't know what you think about this but like aren't they supposed to be kind of valueless technically like isn't the whole thing that you have to have sort of a valueless governance token and yet they all have value i'm very confused about this we are getting again and the deepest hardest questions of this world uh i do something like karl marx uh or or somebody somebody else was was talking about basically governance token should represent power and power should shouldn't be able to be bought and i have an interesting idea on that and i believe you would see the result

of that idea development in some time on wearable so we have some interesting ideas on how to make this non-purchasable basically that's just some set of economic rules that we can add to the whole process though that you won't be able to buy roots or buy power explicitly i believe that idea is very powerful and that's why i'm not sure that i want to like say it out loud exactly but this has some idea of time so you you need to be sticky to the platform so if you were on the platform for two months or three months or five months so or from the beginning and and you

showed that your like incentives aligned with the platform development that you're a long supporter you're here for a long time if you're here for a long term to support the product then you would be entitled to some this uh reputation like power i would say and that's so different from what it was before like when you were early in the music scene and you like found the band first it meant like you had some cachet and you could be like i was when i got to see them when there was only like 200 people in the audience but that was it like that was the power you got and if they became very successful you didn't see any of that and then you have like digital communities where like if you're first especially in like ethereum you did often get the benefit if you

were early because you were actually owning a token but if you were say early on like an indie video game you were part of the first crew who like really pushed through you never really see the benefit although i say like one other thing about video games is if you're in it long enough you also have collected a lot of the gear so yeah maybe it's sort of playing a little bit on that direction where but instead of it just being like in-game gear you're actually getting like responsibility and value for real in the project that's the whole idea uh the time is crucial to this world and that's the like the most valuable resource that we have and if you spend some time on something that's your contribution not that supply of your money your your most invaluable contribution

is your time spent alongside the guys who are developing it totally we see this pay well in in the whole social network uh world because there is an interesting idea that if you've been one of the first in some network then you receive most of its value uh it's called preferential attachment from the network science but in general if you was early on facebook then probably you have most of the subscriber base right now if you were first on apple store like whatsapp for example did the whatsapp was one of the first 500 apps on the app store and basically it

grew with the app store wow i didn't know that actually that's interesting one of the last topics that i do want to cover in this interview is a little bit about like the network itself because we when we talk to the guys from dapper labs and flow they mentioned this idea of like build i mean they built their own blockchain and one of the reasons is they needed it to function in a slightly different way and i mean i know we've interviewed tons of projects on this show different networks who are trying to always tackle the scaling issue now you wearable is built on ethereum on eth1 how are you dealing like i'm just picturing like the nft contract must be more complicated than usual and so

you're transferring assets that might not be that valuable yet like smaller value assets and yet you're gonna be hit with like some pretty mega gas fees so i'm curious what you're thinking about in that regard and like what you see is like the future of these nfts brilliant question so actually that's again one of the biggest parts on our world map is to solve the scalability problem we start with the serum because it has the most developers on board it has the most number of wallets supported most of those are like supporting nfts you can see them that this whole ecosystem is just shaping around the serum and it's so valuable because you know

that if you you lost your wallet if if the wallet company is closed you can have another one that would show your nfts the same way so this is why we pick the theorem is just the winner right now but because prices have been insane especially with this d5 boom when you have 45 users and the gas price is always constant you can have one billion dollars transacted by paying 10 dollars in gas prices and when we go to nft space you have an nft worth of 100 and you still need to pay this 10 dollar gas to to transact it so in terms of difficulty of the nft

contract i believe that's probably above the average but not much above so the the biggest problem is that nfgs are singular they are uh not batchable yet and that's why you need to pay gas price um to transact each nft and that can result in a big basically cost in terms of percentage to the nft cost so again we want to solve this uh i believe we talked to almost anyone supplying the scale appearability solution here we talked to diaper labs flow we talked to near salan polka dot cosmos i i i can count more vox uh starkware

matic lapse all of those guys are are here to solve the same problem and i believe that in terms of your eggs of all of this if you use literature solution to to solve the scalability problem or if you use l1 solution to solve the scalability problem for users it's the same for user you still need to deposit and withdraw to any other layer so for the end user that would result in something like okay we have an nft and we have a space where it lives right now and you can move nft between the spaces uh right now we have all of the nfts

living on ethereum l1 and i believe the the future the bright future for nfts is interconnected layer 2 and layer 1 solutions all breached to each other the real battle will be between l2 solutions on top of ethereum and l1 solutions preach the serum so something like near with a rainbow bridge and or or a layer to solution like starkware long term probably ck roll ups would win in the scalability game on top of the theorem if they come before they zero 2.0 is here so this is the general outline for for

that now i'm really curious though like what are you cause like in a way this was going to be a question it's like are you looking at the zk roll up model could you exist on sort of one of those i know i'm not supposed to say side chain but whatever like off chain whatever those things are the things that are like sitting next to it and then use the main chain as this check in point well um the thing is that we can exist on any one of them it's a little bit harder to breach than nft than your c20 token because uh when we're dealing with rc20 tokens you can burn on one chain and mint on another and yeah with nfts it's similar but a little bit different

difficult because nfts have unique numbers and us and state matters that's what i understand too like you have to have the correct attached state and data and background so if you move to a new chain you might not actually have that extra data i think we just we did talk about that in the last episode too yeah the provenance yeah you want to understand all the previous owners of that nft and when you move to another chain you've got to take that with you it's not unsolvable it's just a little bit more difficult than the oxygen training yeah and there are several teams right now working on that so providence again okay it's just a technical problem

it can be solved uh all of this are are just technical problems but i do see the big uh issue with choking ideas so how it works right now there is an idea attached to each nft and a lot of current nft projects are using increment edges so there is an nft number five there is an nft number six there is an nft number seven that is just incrementing within each new entity created on the serum blockchain if you have a layer two solution on top of it or another layer one using the same nft and let's say you created a new nft on both of them so there can be a new energy with the

number five on the theorem and on other chain and then when you try to move them you've got a problem yeah so probably the ultimate solution for that would be cross chain nfc standard and that would be probably my call to everyone who is listening here to let's let's let's build a new nft standard for multi-chain guys uh that's that's my call for for the developers here wow this wouldn't be easy but again that's solvable let's do it together and getting back to the original question we can exist on every of those chains we can exist on every layer of two solutions and this is just the question of

prioritization like which one do we pick first and which we will go then to the second so you have an integration cost and you have the popularity of that decision of that solution we are ready to take an action but we are exploring the space to take the best pick nice something i have not yet had a chance to speak about or like explore is this idea of kyc aml for nfts i mean usually what's happening is nfts are all being sold and bought with cryptocurrency that's already earned so i guess the expectation there is like the kyc has already happened beforehand but is that something that you think

will become relevant especially if there are and i know you sort of you don't seem to be as into it but if you are doing bridging to like the real world real world quotes but like the non-digital world like would there need to be some sort of kyc on that very interesting topic to dive into and i believe the general idea okay why do we need kyc and ml because we need to protect some people from something bad happening to them we need to know for sure that this money wasn't used like uh in any unlawful manner or something like this and it's extremely crucial now for the the usual crypto world to understand that because we have seen that some

issues are there and with nfgs it's much more easier now because uh you can't really do anything bad with them right now they are less liquid if you purchase an art that not guarantee you that you would be able to sell it afterwards and probably purchased it already with the cryptocurrency so yeah you're exactly right some kyc happened already but i believe that with the market maturity this would just take place in this kyc enamel techniques applied to the it's basically how to apply it to the real goods we have a traditional art market when you need to understand like where did that money came from to buy a

van gogh for 40 million dollars and the same would happen with nfts on when the the market will scale the best thing about nfts is that i believe you can solve this with the nfts itself so you can have a kyc nft that will sit in your account and that would mark that your account actually performed kyc somewhere and that now you're eligible to to use it everywhere where you need some authorization oh man that would be so useful holy i feel like if for anyone who's in this space has had to go through that process so often and it's very annoying and it's

kind of scary too like you're sharing this private data to like it's yeah i would be very happy to see something like that happen i believe something like that already exists in the space there is a project 0x circuit that is doing certification in terms of nfts so you probably want to look at that i didn't hear about them lately a lot but i do know that they are solving something like this there is another project centrifuge i'm not sure how to pronounce it correct centrifuge yeah i know them uh yeah that are trying to solve off chain assets brought on chain in terms of nft it would be awesome to just have a mortgage on your home represented

on chain as nft i guess i've been i've been talking recently to somebody from the defy space that person told me that they recently was doing like remortgage of their home and it took eight weeks to do that well and then he basically got into compound and took the same amount of loan in just like 10 minutes 10 seconds i believe wow yeah we've i've heard a couple stories like that i mean i've heard them mostly on twitter so i don't know if they're exactly how they went down but you know definitely this stuff is happening i think maybe one last thing before we wrap up is i want to tackle another kind of nft question that i've

had which is this idea of privacy and nfts given we're on the zero knowledge podcast we talk a lot about privacy here is there any work around privacy and nft it could be privacy and ownership privacy and transfer actually private nfts has that been a topic actually you're the first person that i'm hearing about anonymous nfgs from probably somebody else just asked me the day before but no actual work as far as i know have done on this topic and frankly i don't see demand for it so so far most of the people are putting their photos to accounts that hold nfts that are going on twitter and showing

off that they purchased something so there's kind of the opposite dynamics right now on the market but i do believe that there are some anonymous collectors that purchase nfts without revealing themselves but again each of them had his own brand sound like some anonymous nft fund or something like this so that they still know they they are still an entity that that has nfts they're the digital banksies or something yeah exactly i believe we already have a digital banksy he's called pranksia he's he is on twitter and he was taking the leaderboard of variable for some time

when i think about just the technicals of of anonymous nfgs i do have this notion that it's much more hard because when you're dealing with privacy you always have something like an animated set involved so the way privacy works right now everywhere on chain is that you're mixing yourself with our other people so that is indistinguishable from the third party observer and when we talk about nfgs each of them is unique it's uh quite singular and it would be so hard to achieve a large anonymity set for it in order to distinguish yourself from

somebody else but i don't know i i had real pleasure just thinking about this question well maybe maybe just talking about it here is like going to put a few ideas in other people's minds so they can start thinking about it too you mentioned panxy i think as a sign off like is there any community members or artists that you have discovered that you think maybe our listeners should go check out and i maybe it's not good for you to pick favorites here but i'm just realizing like there is this whole community of creators we didn't actually get a chance to talk about them so much in the show but i believe that's that's a good topic for just the whole another episode i i don't want to pick favorites here into it

and the space is so big if i if i would pick someone and that would be just my small like perspective on the market i don't want to do that fair enough well that's that's actually that's encouraging though i'm now i'm gonna go and maybe explore your this platform and see which ones i like the most i want to say thank you so much for coming on the show and letting me ask you all of these burning nft questions and uh good luck with the project with the wearable project i'm eternally grateful for you inviting me thanks for having me here cool and to our listeners thanks for [Music] listening