Zero Knowledge Infinite Trust

Transcript

I have 100% conviction that our technology will be pervasive and ubiquitous and needed everywhere in the world. It is really a story about people uh [music] my personal journey and uh my co-author's personal journey into blockchain and [music] how blockchain can change the life of all of us for the better. the first part of my conviction which is that ZK Starks are going to be central to the world because Ethereum is central to the world. It's a book about people for people. So it's a book about freedom. Zero knowledge comes from math is based on math and [music] because of that you get infinite trust. It is the

highest level of trust that you can get [music] trust in math. Darknet will be pervasive as the integrity web and will be used by everyone everywhere. [music] Welcome to the code confession. I am Puja Randan your host and this episode is brought to you by EC Institute. The code confession is a podcast that dives into [music] developers personal and professional journey in the space right from writing the first hello world to uncover wins lessons and challenges that shapes [music] the blockchain

technology. Today we have got a special guest and we are going to talk about him his journey and his team that has done something very special something very amazing that Bitcoin community has been talking about for weeks months. At the same time his books drops [music] from WY and he has managed to fit in a conversation to talk to us. Super [music] grateful. Ellie Ben Sasson CEO of Starkware, co-inventor of stocks and founding scientist of Zcash. Welcome to the show.

>> Hello Puja. Thank you very much for having me on it. Uh really excited to be here. >> Let's start with an honest question. You have released a book and made a major technical announcement in the same Fortnite. Was that planned? >> Uh the universe uh decided to throw a few uh nice things at us. Yeah, we didn't plan at all. >> Was there a moment in the last month when you thought that it is either going to be like brilliant timing or is it going to be very stressful? I'm sure you're very happy and excited about the book.

>> Yeah, I don't stress much. So like uh yeah I'm I think to be a founder also to be a scientist and a researcher it's very important to be super optimistic and you know my illustrious advisor professor Avi Wigderson won both the uh curing award the Abel prize Nevilleina Gdel prizes like a very accomplished scientist also is one of the most uh you know optimistic people he infused that in me and then you know my postto host professor Madus Sudan from from now at Harvard University. So I was always surrounded by very optimistic people and um probably also optimistic by nature.

So yeah, I didn't feel it as too stressful. No, there have been much more stressful periods in my life and even in my professional life. >> Yes, of course, this is a delightful period. I have gone through uh some research and looked into some of your stories. We would like to get to those stories along with the quantum story in a moment. But let's first understand Eli who you are. You have said that you went from pure academic mathematics to Bitcoin almost overnight. What was the actual moment the paper or the conversation that made you think this is going to change everything?

>> Yeah. So I think uh maybe I'm a very curious and optimistic person and I follow my my [clears throat] loves. So I fell in love with math. I never thought that I'd be a mathematician. Somehow in my family, you know, as a child, I was more interested in like soccer and hanging out with with with the guys. Um, and I was surprised that I enjoyed mathematics when I landed in university and that I was even uh somewhat good at it. So, I followed that passion and then um in 2013 I went to a conference about uh Bitcoin. I was an academic then a tenure professor and I went there to talk about my research which I felt somehow could be relevant and I came out

you know first of all falling in love with with Bitcoin and all of crypto and also I realized that my research can solve problems in the world of Bitcoin and blockchain two problems privacy and scale and I followed that passion and that love ever since >> privacy and scale both are amazing and really needed for the blockchain world. You have been in academics and have been building for years. Was it surprising for Bitcoin developers to hear telling you exactly what they are looking for?

>> I don't know. But I give a lot of credit to Greg Maxwell and Mike Hearn and Gavin Andre. These are like you know OG Bitcoin developers who uh when I approached them and said hey I'm this mathematician and I have this math that I want to share. They said, "Yeah, sure. Come and present it." And um they especially Greg Maxwell, he immediately saw several very important use cases for ZK proofs right after the talk and sort of their enthusiasm and you know I was giving this talk at many different academic places. this talk about reducing to practice a whole bunch of ZK theory and uh the reactions I got were you know typical academic politeness but like sort of uh you know behind my back

people later came and said they said like this guy is off his rocker not clear what he's doing and why is he's wasting his time trying to implement and find use cases for this stuff that should just be the toy play of of mathematicians and the seriousness of these OG core developers from Bitcoin who immediately realized the potential is something that resonated with me and I think was the strongest signal that there's product market fit for this math. >> So was that your red pill moment?

>> Yes, definitely that was my red pill moment. That was the moment. It was that time. It was pretty much almost 13 years ago to the day because it was in May 2013 and now we're in recording this in May 2026. And I just remember I because I was again I was giving these talks at places and I felt that there's no good product market fit for this you know reduction to practice of of Z theory and in Bitcoin I just felt this pull right that the core devs are saying wow we need this and uh yeah I that was the red pulling moment.

>> So let's take you from product market to fish market. I heard there is an interesting story about fish market and vitalik. I have never hear the entire story. Could you maybe take us there? >> Yeah, it's a very funny story. It's all recounted in in the book which I want to emphasize. So, first of all, the book does not have any math in it. Doesn't have any formulas even though it tells the story of ZK Starks and blockchain. It is really a story about people uh my personal journey and my co-author's personal journey into blockchain and how blockchain can change the life of all of us for the better. This fish market story was was like this. I was with my main co-founder Uri Coli. were working

on forming the company and we saw that there's some initial interest and we were looking for someone who might be willing to price the round which means give a certain valuation and say I will invest at that valuation and I was at an academic conference in China alongside Vitalik and uh whom I knew already from the Bitcoin days when he was a bitcoin reporter and he he actually at some point even asked me to comment on the yellow paper and I was sort of a bit of afraid of getting into that weird thing of that blockchain at the time. I very much regret it to this day. I wish I would have, you know, taken a more active role in Ethereum, but I was afraid that it would just be some flopped project. Anyways, so we were

Ethereum was already uh I think live by then and I was at the um at this conference with Vitalik and I asked him if he's willing to go with me for a walk. So we started walking and then we there's there was a fish market. I personally love going through just places of commerce and places of work and I enjoy fish markets just there's you know a lot to see. So we were I mean the smell isn't great but you know it is very interesting. So we were walking through the fish market and uh I asked him uh Vitalik would you as you know amidst all the fish and the guts and everything and you know being washed away asked him you know would you be willing to uh price a round and he said and Vitalik said

which uh in Vitalik speak means yeah sure why not and asked him you know would you be be willing to lead it uh for investment of $6 million which is what we were looking for and again said sort of yeah and u we basically shook hands there and I immediately called my co-founder and said yes we now have you know Vitalik himself it was his first investment is willing to price around and then we went around and told a whole bunch of other investors who also got excited obviously because you know Vitalik gave this very strong signal the very first investment he made so yeah and it was all priced and uh settled in a Chinese fish market in Shenzhen.

>> Indeed, a very interesting story right from the first investment getting to a state where we are now talking about quantum. So, let's uh segue from here. Let's get into the quantum panic and kind of shield and I understand you have mentioned in the book Bitcoin as the Titanic. So, I'm thinking a little bit more about but you can help us understand of the quantum threat. Is it something real? Is it something that people are going to see or we are just fear monitoring?

>> Well, it's it's definitely real in its ability to put a very big cloud over Bitcoin and over crypto because I don't know if an actual quantum computer that can break elliptic curve cryptography will arise, let's say, in the next five years. I don't know that. I don't have high confidence about that. I'm not a physicist. But I have very high confidence that over the next 5 years, we will keep hearing news about progress towards it. Why? Because there's billions of dollars invested in it because the experts are saying that there is progress because there is no known theoretical barrier to having

quantum computers. So it could be then maybe in 5 years time maybe it will look a little bit more distant than people thought and maybe with another 10 years people will say oh it's a little bit like uh this thing cold fusion right this ability to create electricity from fusion of hydrogen which is this elusive goal for the past uh I don't know almost 100 years or like 80 years at least so maybe a quantum computer might end up being like that but over the next five years we won't know that. So there are only two possibilities. Well either a quantum computer actually arises that breaks the cryptography and then you know we hit the iceberg or else we

continue hearing about progress towards it over the next few years in more and more of this agitation. And I think the only rational and reasonable way to confront this is to say okay let's prepare because from a technological point of view there is a lot of work to be done but it's not uh no breakthroughs are needed. It's just implementing code and the real problem is just one of governance and consensus like for starknet to become postquantum secure is going to be very doable and we will release a plan an aggressive plan by which we show how we can do it very quickly bitcoin could also do it quickly enough goes away but the problem is one of governance right and if no one is

addressing it and there's no urgency then I get worried about this big cloud hovering over us. >> And of course that is something more worrisome for people who do not understand this very well or who may not be able to see this coming up so quick. There could be multiple possible solutions for that. I have heard about something harvest now decrypt letter. What's that? Could you maybe elaborate it for us? I mean the whole point of a quantum computer is that can it can reveal a secret key for let's say an elliptic curve system. So signatures on Ethereum on Bitcoin they're susceptible to that.

Okay. So what we can do but we assume that today these quantum computers don't exist yet. So right now no one yet knows my secret key. What I could do and the secret key is just a string of bits. I could now generate a postquantum secure zk stark proof of the fact that I know a pre-image right sorry a secret key that signs you know this particular bitcoin or this particular ethereum so I can generate if I am actually the owner of this bitcoin or ethereum I can generate today a zk stark proof of that knowledge and I could commit that zk stark proof today into some blockchain

so that if in let's say two years time a quantum computer arises well I can refer to my knowledge going back two years and say I'm the true owner of the bitcoin because by now everyone will have the keys but not everyone but but only I will be able to point back in time to today and show that I knew and I submitted a zk stark proof of my knowledge of the secret key and this could be a new foundation for ownership in a quantum world where all keys have been exposed.

>> In the book you have mentioned uh like it's a Titanic heading for a quantum iceberg. So the idea is like risk begins now and it's not on the Q day. [clears throat] So we we understand that the threat is there. It's eminent. And I believe your team has worked recently. I noticed there was a blog post published something to support quantum safe bitcoin without any hard fork. Uh can you please walk us through what that actually means technically and what are the tradeoffs?

>> Yes. So first of all it's a brilliant uh breakthrough by Avihu Levy who is a general manager of applications at starknet and a very brilliant researcher. published already a number of things before that on collidervm and uh colliders script also a lot of very brilliant bitcoin research okay so first of all what has he achieved there's a lot of discussions of how to upgrade bitcoin what's called a soft fork to allow also for signatures and cryptography that is quantum resistant but the big challenge prior to a view's breakthrough was how do you create quantum safe transactions on Bitcoin

today with no soft forks, with no changes to the code. And that's exactly his breakthrough. So he found a way to create transactions on Bitcoin today that even if a quantum computer emerged tomorrow, the quantum computer could not break or take those Bitcoin that have been used in those transactions. So he published the research paper. It would be very interesting to see when this is implemented via some transaction. That would be very exciting news on its own and I suspect that some people are working on it. And okay, what this is, it's some sort of last resort thing if a quantum computer lands tomorrow. So people who will use these types of

transactions have their Bitcoin safe. But it really does very little to solve the true problem because if all of Satoshi's coins, right, I forgot how many, but millions of coins are now up for grabs. And if these transactions are also pretty expensive and they cost a lot in script. So it would still render Bitcoin a very problematic spot. So what a view says there in the paper and I fully agree is that let's not rely on this to say that bitcoin you know has averted the quantum iceberg. Let's see this as impetus and some further motivation to work further and have some soft fork that is a better solution for

all of the bitcoin out there and not via very heavy and costly transactions for some of the bitcoin. So we are a little far away from the realistic path to protect early wallet bitcoins assuming Satoshi's coin as well. >> Well yes on the governance front I think that on the um implementation and technology front we're not that far away. The only problem is um you know one of governance but it's a big problem in in Bitcoin world. Well, if someone from Bitcoin community is listening right now and they are skeptical about the urgency, what's your single strongest argument that they need to act

now before it feels necessary? >> It's a little bit like with the iceberg. Once uh you see the imminent urgency, it may be too late because there may be some huge panic. And uh first of all, if you want to fix uh computer systems properly, you don't want to do it under panic, especially with a system that carries uh $1.5 trillion of value. You want to do this in a very premeditated, deliberate uh wellthoughtout manner.

That's number one. And then by the time quantum computer is already released, the panic and the market effect just might be something that Bitcoin won't be able to recover from. >> Indeed, there is a need of acting it sooner rather than later. And that's what technology is all about. Well, let's try to dive deeper a little bit more into the architecture of this postquantum trust that we are talking about. I understand uh you have co-invented stocks and I want to do this in two registers to help understand generalist and maybe cryptographer. So if you have to share what is a stock and why does its mathematical foundation

make postquantum when snarks are not? >> Yeah. like uh okay your keys in in [clears throat] a cryptographic system are a little bit like this uh needle that the reason you're protected is like finding your password or your key is like finding a needle in a haystack. A quantum computer is a bit like a magnet, a very powerful magnet that you can, you know, bring close to this haystack and it will suck out your needle, your key. And that's why uh quantum computers break uh elliptic curve cryptography and snarks. But with ZK Stark, your secret key is a little bit like a needle made of gold which doesn't have a magnetic

field. And then bringing a magnet over it doesn't do anything and your keys remain safe even in the event of a quantum computer. That's why ZK Starks are safe from a quantum computer. If I hand you a receipt and ask you to prove that the total is correct without showing me any of the line items that can be done with Starks, is that close? >> From quantum or in general? >> From quantum. >> The way the reason on a more mathematical level the reason starks are protected from quantum is that the only cryptographic primitives that is used there is what is called a hash function.

And hash functions are these very fundamental blocks in cryptography where you basically take a bunch of bits and scramble them around in a very specific pattern but a somewhat meaningless pattern. It really is about scrambling bits. So as long as it's hard to unscramble such bits, you're safe. And that is the only building block that a stark needs. Now quantum computers are not something that can break you know all puzzles in the world. That's not our understanding. If things have a lot of structure in them, a lot of mathematical structure, then a quantum computer can break it. So that's why a quantum computer can factor

large integers. Why it can find a discrete log in an elliptic curve. That's why it can break a snark. But when it comes to a stark, the sort of jumbling and mixing of uh bits and arbitrary patterns that a hash function does is something that a quantum computer and the laws of quantum mechanics don't give you any insight into. So because of the reliance on this very unstructured, very safe and simple cryptographic primitive because of that zk starks are immune to the quantum threat. So these hashbased mathematics are the real foundation for future proving web is a very strong claim. I

I'm sure that Stark is is going with that. Well, I want to understand when you originally started working on the original Stark paper. Was there a day when you realized that this is going to become a standard or did the significance reveal over a period of time? I believed in its importance from from the very start. Um yeah I even before that like I would say that ever since 20 so the stark white paper came out in 2018 but my conviction started being very strong already in 2013 because of that day in the Bitcoin conference. I realized that this really solves a problem that is very important for Bitcoin. And um from then on we

needed still a few more math breakthroughs and a lot of engineering to make things more efficient and then present them to the world. But my deep conviction started in May 2013. This will you know I'll I'll share something with you. when we founded the company and I was recruiting you know the first employees there was a threepart statement that I said to each and every one of them I think it's also it appears in the book and I still say this to my team whenever you know I speak about like vision and where we're going [gasps] I say I have 100% conviction that our technology

will be pervasive and ubiquitous and needed everywhere in the world and will transform it for the better. I have high conviction of that. When it comes to monetization of it, there might be competitors maybe, you know, we won't figure out necessarily the best way to monetize it. Okay. But the third part is that the most meaningful resource in our life is not money and success. It is the way we spend our focus and efforts. And to me, it is absolutely clear that working on taking this amazing math and making it a

reality in the service of humanity and freedom is something well worth spending our focus on >> and it is now coming to be true. Now we see that Starknet is kind of central to the Ethereum scaling road map. We are talking about scalability and security as design goals. What do you think about this? Do you think that they are going to reinforce each other in in stock system? What are your thoughts? Yes, I think that the more I hear of uh Ethereum's evolving plans for the future, the more I see this, you know, the first part of my conviction, which is that ZK Starks are going to be

central to the world because Ethereum is central to the world and Ethereum when it talks about scaling, it talks about lean VM, it talks about a uh VM that is suited for ZK, it talks about postquantum secure stuff. It's basically talking about what already exists in Starknet and it is embracing and adopting that and I think that's beautiful. It's not just beautiful. It's also inevitable. There is no world in which Ethereum reaches its potential as a global economy, a freedom economy and in which the technologies that we spearheaded and brought as open source to the whole world to use don't play a central role. It's impossible to

envision such a reality. >> Indeed, we definitely want to be more secure and if possible private as well. Privacy is going to be there. So, it's going to help us. Well, we understand we have made a good foundation here to now get into your book which is going to talk more about it though it as you mentioned it may not have lot of formulas, lot of maths in it but definitely tell you the story what they want to do. So the book says zero knowledge infinite trust. It's kind of paradox. Unpack it for me. How does knowing nothing allows us to trust it completely?

>> Well, because zero knowledge is math and math is the most uncontested basis for truth and integrity. More than anything we have in our world, the truth and and integrity of math are the most robust kind of level of trust and integrity that we have more so than physics, than biology, than than history, than politics obviously. So zero knowledge comes from math is based on math and because of that you get infinite trust. It is the highest level of trust that you can get trust in math.

>> Something that is provable always gains the trust. >> Yes. >> Well, um this book sits at a special place. I want to understand what that is because WY is an academic press. I understand it is not a white paper. You mentioned that it is not having a lot of math formula and you are the inventor of stock. So it's not crypto for mom kind of book. Where does it sit? It's a book about people for people. So it's a book about freedom about Okay. What we try to do there so my co-author Nathan and I what we try to do is explain the importance of blockchain of ZK of Starks

to people who are not crypto savvy and certainly not for cryptographers. As I mentioned there is not even a single math formula there. I believe the sign of equality does [clears throat] not appear anywhere in the book. Neither does the plus sign. So like it's devoid of math. It's also devoid of computer jargon. Okay? It is not a book for technofiles. It is a book for people who hear about, you know, Bitcoin, about stable coins, about Zcash, about tornado cash, about privacy, about freedom. And they want to understand what it means to

them, what does this technology have to offer them as people? And that's what we tried to recount by stories, by my personal story, by Nathan's personal stories. by you know the people we met and by what we understand and how we explain blockchain and ZK to people who are not mathematicians or experts in the field. >> So I think it has been best positioned as people who are going to be user who are trying to learn they are our potential user of blockchain technology in the world.

Yes, I agree. And all of us are >> Yes. >> future users of blockchain in my view. >> Indeed. Well, as you mentioned that this book is co-written uh with Nathan. I want to hear from you some interesting stories. Was there an argument or a section that you had to rewrite the most? A place that uh you were writing and you were forced to do it again because of your position shift. Oh yeah, there were a lot of professional arguments. Uh some of it had to do with okay how I share personal stories especially ones of success and failure left to my own devices. I probably would

have been tried to present them on the more humble side or you know but uh the world likes to hear whatever stories of success or something. So I think there I uh took a little bit of input and inspiration and sort of swallowed my natural tendency to downplay certain things. Yeah. And then there were some discussions about things like where AI should fit in. AI is this huge huge topic that everyone is, you know, it's a topic on its own.

The question is to what prominence does AI interact with ZK and with blockchain? And the honest answer is I don't know yet and I think no one knows yet. So while we can easily recount a lot of stories about the past and how ZK has evolved so far and where it might be going the you know ZK and AI it's like a bit harder to uh make bold statements about. >> I think it was a very good combination of authors. Nathan as a media head, he has added a lot of value in storytelling and it is easier to share something with people and make them understand if we put them as a story. So good work both of you right over there.

>> Thank you. >> Well, my last question about book. So if someone is reading only one chapter, which chapter you are most proud of and which one do you secretly hope that readers just skip it because it was hardest to write? Uh the one to be skipped is the technical one which I think uh is like around I forgot if it's chapter four and five. If there's only one chapter probably I would say it's the last because it's the most grand in its vision. Yeah. And if not that, then maybe the first and maybe the most interesting ones are the personal stories about, you know, my uh uh how I fell in love with Bitcoin in 2013, the fish market story we told and all kinds of stories about how

company evolved, uh places I went wrong on. There are a lot of like personal stories of like an academic that becomes an entrepreneur, tries a bunch of things and learns his way. >> Very interesting. I understand chapter 1 is already available free for people to read but I would highly recommend people to go back and read the entire book. The book is zero knowledge infinite trust and it is out from WY. You can find it at blockchainthebook.com and we will provide all the links in the show notes as well as some discount coupons for our listeners to follow that.

>> Thank you Puja. Yeah. Well, Ellie, uh, we are close to the end of this conversation and I want to throw out some rapid fire questions to you. >> Okay. [music] >> All right. The mathematician you most wish could see what ZK proof became today. >> Alan Cheuring. >> The one thing about Bitcoin you genuinely admire, >> the freedom. >> The same question for Ethereum. The one thing about Ethereum you genuinely adore >> Vitalik >> and the one prediction you will make on record that you are willing to be held to >> darknet will be pervasive as the

integrity web and will be used by everyone everywhere. >> Very well Eli Benasam [music] co-inventor of Starks founding scientist of Zcash CEO of Starkware [music] and now author. Eli, thank you for being on the code confession. >> Thank you, Puja. I really enjoyed this. >> That's a [music] wrap on this episode of The Code Confession. Full show notes, sources, links, and clip highlights are added in description. If this conversation was useful to you, share it with one person in the community [music] who needs to hear it. And we would see you next time. Cheers.

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