Will MetaMask Drop a Token? Breaking Down the Biggest Wallet Merge Ever

Transcript

hey bankless nation welcome to another state of the nation episode where we talk about something big that is happening in crypto this week the news is big this is the biggest wallet merge ever i think i'm calling it that as far as we're aware this is the biggest one ever this is between metamask and my crypto david what are we talking about today yeah everyone uses metamask how can you not know what metamask is so anytime something happens to metamask it's a really really big deal uh and the veterans of the crypto industry might also have remember when they were loading up their wallets into my crypto to participate in like ico drops or any other crazy shenanigans that uh that we that we did during during that area era and so we have two veterans of wallet

designers we have dan finley and taylor monahan uh coming to tell us all about what is the perhaps the biggest merger in wallet history uh and so that is a story in of itself and and everyone kind of wants to take a peek behind the scenes of metamask and what they are up to which is exactly what we are going to be doing today on today's state of the nation yeah it's gonna be awesome these two uh wallets and user interfaces are what got me into the game space what got me into crypto so i'm really excited for this merger they're coming together i don't know if it's gonna be called crypto mask metacrypto or my crypto mask we'll have to ask our guest in a minute and if you have a question also let us know what you want us to ask in the

youtube comments uh david and i monitor those and we ask questions guys a few housekeeping items before we begin the first is we got to let you know about the permissionless conference that is a conference that i am attending david is attending we think this is going to be the biggest defy conference of the year probably ever super excited about the agenda we have planned uh get your tickets is all i can say anything you want to add to that david oh i'm absolutely stoked for this conference the the content calendar is coming together very very nicely bankless and beers will be a thing uh and so perhaps ryan and i have this uh chariots of fire running across the moment stage at this brewery i don't know for the first time i mean we're gonna meet for the first

time maybe you guys want to attend for that there might be a po app um but yeah you gotta come you gotta come gotta come to the event yeah yeah go check that out guys we'll include a link in the show notes also our friends at xerion while we're on the topic of wallets and metamask and and getting into d5 the gateway to d5 want to talk a little bit about uh zirion they are friends and sponsors and uh you might use them on the daily if you don't you should i use them on a daily basis if you connect your wallet to it you'll notice some incredible new feature ads one is this is not my wallet by the way but uh you could click here on all networks you could see all of the different networks your assets reside on so this is ethereum this is optimism so

layer twos we've got avalanche other evm chains they're adding more all of the time also this nifty little feature bridging we are in the midst of the great migration from ethereum mainnet to layer twos okay and if you want to bridge your tokens xeron has a feature for that where you can just bridge from ethereum to polygon or look finance uh better yet optimism arbitram some other chains as well you can make that happen at uh xerion we'll include a link in the show notes so you can go check that out connect your wallet today completely bankless by the way no bank has control of your assets when you're using xero it's just you your private keys and the xeron user interface the way we like it that's the

way we like it right david absolutely right i wouldn't have it any other way wouldn't have it any other way all right guys we're going to be back in just a few minutes uh oh no no dude i gotta ask you the question yeah you just forgot yeah this is a good state of the nation today david ryan hear what you say the state of the nation is alliterating metamask my crypto merger so ryan today on the state of the nation we are alliterating uh we don't really have to unpack that one too much together all right there might be some depth there that david uncovers in like a 10 000 word piece that he publishes on bank lists later on or maybe there's no depth maybe it's just alliteration that's what we're doing this week right stay tuned to find out guys we will be

back in just a moment with uh taylor and dan talking about this epic merger but before we do we want to thank the sponsors that made this episode possible slingshot is a decentralized trading platform that combines the performance and ease of a centralized exchange with the openness and transparency of defy slingshot aggregates liquidity from all of d5 in order to find the best price on thousands of crypto assets every token on slingshot comes with a price chart and trade logs to give you insights into the market's activity in real time slingshot is available on polygon arbitrary and optimism saving you from the high gas feeds and low transaction speeds of the ethereum l1 there are no fees to trade on slingshot and any positive slippage is given to the users trading on slingshot is a social experience you can even set your chat avatar to your favorite nft or soon a

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me everything i needed to know about merkle trees in his devcon zero talk which i think happened in seattle which burned into his brain that's not all that miracle trees can do uh and we also have taylor monahan who is the founder and ceo of my crypto which started being everyone's first wallet during the ico era of ethereum and extremely challenging time to be a wallet operator and taylor has taken these uh these veteran lessons all the way through and through ethereum's history to where uh we are now today which is a merger between metamask and my crypto so dan taylor welcome to bank list and congratulations on the guys on the merge guys yeah thanks so much it's been a long time coming

it yeah it has been a really really long time coming and i'm excited to finally get to talk about this and see let's see what's up next for us wait that's some alpha so how long have you guys been talking like how long uh you said this is a long time coming it was oh well it's part of the plan or is this oh i meant it in two senses i meant i meant both like we've been like kind of building wallets alongside each other for so long that it almost it almost just feels like it's kind of built up to this and then also yeah we've been like you know like tossing around the idea of what this could possibly turn into for yeah i don't know like what like six months or something like it's like you know figuring out if we could conceive of it

working was like i think the most important part yeah we didn't uh talk to anyone else about it until we are like somewhat confident in uh the success of it and particularly for like the teams um as i'm sure most people are aware like the hardest thing about doing emerge is the people and bringing them together um and so that was sort of our focus uh and i do remember for timeline's sake at one point i was like okay once we get through eip1559 then we can really talk about this so that's how long it's been uh you know one other thing that um both of your your solutions both your projects have in common is um you like

the customer support the front end help desk customer support for crypto which i'm sorry for yes uh and taylor i know my crypto uh then called my my uh ether wallet was uh so key during like 2017 ico i mean it's what everyone used what i used and i remember reading like basically you're doing help desk stuff on reddit forms for people like it was an incredible time and then metamask dan you know no different if there's an issue with with my transaction didn't go through block spaces you know gas fees are too expensive where'd my money go on the front end yeah it looks like dan is shuttering like just thinking about this yeah yeah

we have some very uh shared trauma okay so you've got some sheer trauma is that a unifying thing being the the help desk the front customer support of ethereum of crypto oh yeah i mean i would put it like like when you go through something like that together it's like you're bonded for life and the people that uh were sort of on the front lines in 2017 like those are still some of my best friends to this day uh like the people like that we you know the fishers and the scammers came out of nowhere uh that group of people that all like stood together trying to solve this problem and fix stuff uh we're still all all very close and like in particular me

and dan just because we're also trying to run a wallet thing and build the future of everything and keep people safe you know you just you have that that shared experience and that i don't know loneliness like no one understands me but we understand each other it's fantastic i feel like it transforms you when you go through it because like it teaches you so much about what's what this ecosystem is and what it's made of and like when you're helping these people like there's like so many different people with so many different you know you thought you just taught some people with some hackathon and then suddenly you know it's it's a you know grandma in kansas or you know it's like

you know like a an artist in lagos or you know and you're just like you're just like oh okay how did you get into that you know you're like what's your problem or like what's your you know where are you at in this journey and like understanding all the different ways people can can uh kind of like mess up and lose their money or something i think it like builds up like this like reverence like like it was it was all fun building in like 2016. 2016 it was like yeah add some add some apis add some features we have like changing the world baby yeah yeah and it was it was fun and and what's funny is like you know there's like some apis that we made that are like they were like kind of half-baked those are those are 2016 apis like you

know it was easy to go in times you know the bar was a little bit lower but but man yeah like once once it gets real once once you like have you know a cert there's there's like a level where people like you you realize like for some people this is their whole life you know and uh you know like i mean and i i don't i'm not advising people put their whole life savings into crypto if they don't understand it but some people are doing that you know and you gotta if you're a wallet you should be building as if people are doing that and uh yeah there's just this reverence for it uh for the process and for for like you know the experience in like what it means to have this like digital asset manager that uh that i think i think

that we have a shared kind of reverence for a certain respect for like where the bar is at to keep users safe and uh yeah so so it's it's kind of easy i find i find that we like agree about a lot of product principal decisions like when we're talking about pretty much any you know little feature like someone's like you know oh you know you should it'd be really nice if you were you know uh whatever and then like we tend to consistently you know like uh i don't like auto detecting nfts is like one of those things where it's like it's really easy to want that as a user um the failure modes though are not obvious to everyone but for somebody who's like seen thousands and thousands of people get phished in a million different ways

you know like uh yeah like we i think we just have like an eye for the ways that it's just like oh oh just constantly seeing things go wrong and yeah and it's it's a rare kind of insight and i so so respect how much of it taylor's got and she she shares it liberally too like like i'm i'm definitely quieter on twitter but you know she makes it very obvious and tries to help other people see it that you know i try yeah i try i yell at people and hope that they're listening to me so i actually want to dive into that because you guys dan you talked about the alignment between the the building the ethos of both of your guys's wallets and so i want to understand what that

what that is what is the thing that both uh metamask and my crypto are super aligned on and how is that going to guide the product moving forward yeah i think that for the i think both me and dan have sort of undergone a i don't know and a transformation evolution from like the very early days to where we are today and i think a lot of other people will uh get there eventually but it's uh the wallet is like probably the most key piece of of infrastructure of product in the entire space um for me like i was like yeah just build a paper wallet generator yay

okay it's just this thing that uh allows you to sign things like whatever that was sort of my first uh like the first couple years of building that's what it was like and then in 2017 it turned into like oh okay like the wallet has the ability to protect but everyone else is sort of like driving people into the ecosystem right like everyone else is promoting their icos bringing people in and the wallet is like the sort of the last stop where you know we have this opportunity to save users um and today i realize it's it's like the wallet is not only the last stop or like the last trusted space or the one place where we could save a user from like interacting with a scam or

uh or doing something else but it also sort of has this responsibility of giving people the power to interact with these things um and because of that the wallet also has like the ability to abuse that power right and that's why i think it's really really important that the people who are building wallets and the teams and and people who are using wallets all sort of understand just how integral it is that you know things are built in the correct way uh that the focus remains on empowering the user and giving them choice um that it does not uh you know we don't go into like censoring transactions or babysitting like we actually we really need to educate and empower people um if if

there's any chance that we're gonna build like a a different world let alone a better world um and dan understands this like he's had some vlogs out recently where uh like his response to the the moxie article was when i was like he gets it that's what's in my head that i haven't had a chance to like get out into words yet um and yeah i think that the next couple years i think are going to be increasingly important as well because um again you know whenever the the market cycle cycle it's uh there's like this flood of users who don't really understand what's happening they're really really excited for the potential and it's during that uh the sort of the down periods where um people actually understand like the values and understand why this is

important um and i think that yeah next couple years are gonna be fun ones the this is exactly what you said this entire industry is completely pinned on top of private keys private keys are just the the thing that unlocks everything first it unlocks people like being able to hold crypto but it really does so much more than that right and i think people are starting to get an idea of what that means with nfts right where you know these nfcs are starting to become tools of identity uh but also the trustless verification of signing private keys can unlock so many new superpowers which means that all of the superpowers that people are able to access because of private keys all resides inside of the wallet that they choose to use which gives wallet

designers an immense amount of responsibility for how they choose to design their systems and so while i think maybe people coming in from to this industry who are brand new are like oh yeah just give me the best wallet ever they don't understand the magnitude of the question that they just asked or the request that that they're making so um question a question to you guys is now that you guys have merged what is in store like what comes next what happens to my crypto what happens to metamask wallet and is this changing the trajectory of metamask in any particular way you want to do it all right i think it's gonna i mean we're in the process of merging so we're like our teams are like getting acquainted

getting to know each other um finding their place um you know we're we're not uh sunsetting the microphone products because they're like total bastions of stability for a lot of people who who need like you know that that derivation path that nobody else uses with that you know while it doesn't support it otherwise uh or you know or just like a million of the other features it provides um but um yeah there's there's a lot of things that become possible i mean kind of to tie in the last topic it's like being that last bastion of trust for a person when they're interacting with stuff like i sometimes think of us as like we're like your digital lawyer like oh this is what this is what that'll mean you know and the thing is

that the amount of knowledge your ideal lawyer would have is like boundless you know so being able to have this expertise like you know we've now got twice as many experts on 1559 you know we've got uh twice as many experts on hardware wallets now um you know and uh and now we've got experts on uh built maintaining a desktop app um so that's you know a little bit of a trajectory shifter uh for sure um so yeah yeah what other ones are jumping out of you um god i know it's it's tough because everyone's asking us what we're doing with the products and we've been so focused on just making sure that the teams are going to be aligned and like that every individual has like

uh a place and like they have they're empowered to like continue you know creating value and more value and that kind of stuff so on the product end it's kind of like uh it just hasn't been our focus but i think there's some obvious uh sort of next steps or where we're coming one is i think that the the potential for a desktop application with metamask is an obvious one we've been working on uh like we have our existing desktop app but we've also been working on this new uh sort of very lightweight signer that's just like the core uh i guess the core of a wallet um and we can build that out um and that acts more similar to how mad mask acts where

you basically have uh like a website or a dab that is is where you're uh getting the information that you need and you're constructing the transaction and then the desktop uh applet i guess signer thing that we're we're building um that's just that that final piece and so it's responsibility is sort of just this the i guess the last mile right where you sign it and you want to know what you're signing um and uh uh the desktop just it enables a lot of i guess functionality that that the browser doesn't um the other thing is you know metamask has a a list a mile long of things that we can improve upon things that can be cleaned

up um some of it is is like indirect response to users and support tickets and that kind of stuff uh some of it is uh the mile long list of twitter commentary that floods in literally every single day um and i think it's really important that we uh you know in as the team is scaling up as the users are just like streaming through the front door uh we get better at prioritizing like how all of these different desires um fit into both the short-term plan and the long-term plan right because we have to balance the bugs and the security issues or the privacy issues with um you know the really influential guy on twitter

who decided that today was the day where he was going to unleash the the torrent of complaints onto dan um and yeah i think working together on all of these things it's like it's not just like new fancy things it's also just really really improving what we already have what about the the branding what's happening to the my crypto branding is my crypto turning into metamask or are we keeping the my crypto branding what's going on there the i honestly assumed that uh my crypto the microphone brand would like be slowly phased out in favor of metamask but uh you can't tweet the word metamask right now without being like just having a pile of reply bots on you oh my god yeah

so for the listeners i tweeted out like the link to this uh live stream via twitter and like instantaneously seven bots came and said hey like do you need metamath support email this scam email or fill out the scam scam form yeah then which obviously is requesting for private keys uh that must be a mess yeah so we're keeping the my crypto brand alive for now because we can still tweet i think we can reclaim i you know i mean part of this is like a symptom of how uh twitter works where it's just like really easy to impersonate anyone um but you know we've got some ideas for how we can continue to combat the fishes i don't want to like you know

let the fishers get a head start on on our counter measures but it is a cat and mouse game and you know also you know we're getting uh some some excellent security thinkers of my crypto that'll that'll help us uh build out better you know response and uh defensive capabilities for our users so i'm stoked about that too uh also though you know just taylor since you bring up like i don't know like is the brand thrash like or is it the best pr it's like it's the word you can't say i i don't know i'm undecided on that it's like uh but yeah it's almost it's almost become a joke and it's almost become like an inoculation where like everybody knows they're like oh you said the word and like if you're in on that joke then

you're you're kind of like mentally inoculated against the tactic and and so i think there's something healthy going on in the in the community uh there well what's crazy is like so you guys have been at this for six years which is like an absolute like you are the adults of the space okay a lot of people coming in like myself included you know a little bit um are still toddlers you know and you guys are sort of the adults of this space and uh metamask and my crypto as well they're no longer kind of you know can't be niche products right we're talking about some serious daily active users and dan i was curious like what are the latest metamask daily active users or maybe like monthly active users because i know we're going

to be leaving these hands i don't know the dailies tell me the most oh actually i think so so uh sorry we crossed the big number and we didn't like celebrate it but we crossed the 30 million so we're like 32 million now oh wow i didn't know there's a audience has mics um yeah there's a there's a tote there's an audience uh to the left of david that's just out of camera you can't see yeah they watch every show live talking plants yes yeah um and then daily active i think we're like eight or nine uh million uh something like that thirty million okay 9 million dailies 30 million monthly um that that's absolutely insane growth and and so like as as we turn uh and talk a little bit about you know the future of

wallets i also just want to get us grounded in in terms of your philosophy of how you think of a wallet and what you build next right and i'm wondering if there's some analogies from the past that we use here uh or what your analogy might be dan and taylor right it's like because there's kind of a question of is metamask going to turn into an ecosystem what is it going to be is it going to be sort of a is it like a browser are you like is metamask netscape is it like internet explorer is it an operating system is this like comparing it to netscape linux or windows okay so like what is your analogy for this thing or is it a totally separate category something new uh we know it is like netscape in that

it's the first place you send your friends you get in crypto like you go to coinbase whatever and then you want to do real crypto stuff you go get a metamask wallet so like what what's the analogy uh from your perspective maybe start with dan okay uh so i think that what we are is something like a distributed user agent so user agent is the the word that you use for like when a computer is trusted to act on your behalf so your operating system you know you plug in a usb thing you're trusting the computer the operating system to keep you safe from whatever you just plugged in hopefully it's good at that the truth is you know most operating systems you install an app that kind of owns you

right so they're kind of poor user agents they're working on it though browsers are another user agent like it's right there in the http headers is like you know it's like user agent string mozilla you know so uh browsers are they're keeping you safe from things that you don't trust but both of those are these kinds of local user agents where you've got some stuff locally on your machine right here and it's controlling the permissions now browser you're loading some remote content and and you know you're beaming some info back and forth so you're getting more distributed but but then once we added crypto in now we've got this kind of agency this kind of like user decision making and computer power that is not on your computer anymore and

it's not on any one person's computer so it's not suitable for a password and so you need to be able to make these you need a process on your computer that's able to help you make informed uh decisions um for a distributed network um uh yeah basically that so it's kind of just like a operating system kernel or something it's like a permissions manager and uh you know i think a lot of people you know you think about it first as a wallet so you're like it's financial but i think we've already seen it it's way bigger than just finance you know it's like people are inventing new i mean even if you're just talking about finance people are inventing new derivatives all the time but then they're also like voting on stuff and then they're also like selling art and then they're like you know making you

know doubts based on it's like so so the the metaphor of just money it doesn't actually hold up for it at all it's it's way bigger than that it's way more general um so it's this kind of distributed authority dan i kind of feel like you're saying netscape like i would still use that one like i it's like i mean i mean it is also it's similar uh yeah one difference is that we don't provide the window right so uh ideally your wallet can let you interact with applications from any host so you know you could you know you could sign into a native a desktop app using wallet connect today right and you can you can sign in on a uh yeah to a website um via mobile i think it's just

a matter of time before we're doing like nfc login and stuff like that like i think that the operating system is bigger than a window it's like literally just like this fabric of digital agreements between us um so so kind of but but it's like the permissions part of of netscape kind of and then just blow that out between all possible ways of interacting with other software i see what do you think taylor what would you add to that yeah i think that the reason it's really hard to like come up with a really sort of a one-to-one analogy is that uh one you you know the difference between the operating system and the browser historically is uh there isn't this like financial error to it and money does change things um the reason that like uh there are so many scammers

and so many people trying to steal your crypto is that uh it's it's money like crypto's money um and so that adds like a whole new layer um and then the biggest uh i guess realization that people are probably starting to understand more tangibly today with nfts and the like is um what the the sort of the things that we're interacting with they are uh anything like it's infinite right so similar to how like i guess the browser can access this content or load up this content and that content can be anything um the you know what metamask is interacting

with can also be anything um however it's it's much more uh it's not just content it's much more personal so you know you could be uh in the same way that right now like you go and you visit a dab and you send some uh you send some if somewhere or you put it over a bridge or you lend it out or whatever it is um you're you're not only like uh giving this this thing control over your finances uh it's also you know with nfts it's it's not literally money it's these uh anything from like a jpeg or a collectible or a store value or whatever you want to say but it could also be like uh

your identity uh it could be like uh uh your your like relationships or your personal sort of like network right you could be like uh uh sharing little nuggets or the entire sort of your entire social graph with the network um uh access like you know that could or could not be like mapped to the in real life reality that we live in um there's things that are just like fundamental to our personal being and so i think when we visit a website it's a much more passive experience in general um yes like you can log in and yes you can like put your name in there and

stuff but um the wallet is is ultimately going to be a thing where when you sign a transaction you're giving some piece of yourself right whether that's a piece of your your financial identity or a piece of your literal finances all the way to like yeah your work identity your gamer tag like you know or or your level on that game uh and i think that it's really important for people to understand that um uh what exactly this stuff is that that you're giving permission uh or the wallet is controlling the permission to or whatever you want to say uh whatever that stuff is is like whatever people dream up it could be literally anything and that's a really

uh mind-boggling concept to realize as a wallet builder it is super mind-boggling and the stakes are so much higher it's almost like as we transition as humanity transitions into this digital future in the metaverse right your your etherdress almost becomes like your home address and like when you're when you're signing things you're like inviting someone to come into your home like that's how personal this space sort of is only it's in the digital world right and that's what i think like the wallet as like this analogy to this like thing that's in your pocket that has your like your cash in it has your credit cards in it maybe it has like your library card in it i think it's a good first analogy

because it is like giving this access to these things but it really i like your house analogy because that's what it is right it's like everything that you uh that you are that you experience that you have that you own that you've borrowed uh tokens that represent something that you've borrowed on a different chain you know like just uh yeah it's it's it's a lot the analogy that comes to my mind is a harry potter horcrux taylor you said that when you sign something like you give away a piece of yourself well usually we're interacting with contracts that we trust right like i'm okay with me giving a little giving access to my soul to like unit swap or something like i'll let uniswap trade my tokens when i

press the buttons but everyone needs to be cognizant that when like they sign a message that they're or and or they're giving some approval to something somehow somewhere that approval is to do whatever you're allowing it to do to your wallet which could be anything right so it's it's like you know it's signing away a little bit of yourself saying like i trust you with this uh plea please don't scam me have you guys ever considered uh calling the proof transaction soul bonding and soul yeah but do you want to bond your soul to this one i mean i i like having playful language in there and and it'd be cool if we allowed like theming so that people could like subscribe to like the playful language that appealed to them you know

because like like let's say if there's a transaction where we're not able to make it coherent you know you might as well be bonding your soul because you're you're taking a total leap of faith on whatever this application is you know and people do that way more often than we're comfortable with and it's like i i think it's one of the most important roles for the wallet is is enabling those like it's it's like you know ninety percent of interactions are stuff we we get it's like oh token transfers bidding on an nft yada yada it's like what you know but then there's that that those latest things and those are the exciting things and we need like pioneers to like yeah basically leap their soul into these abyss and then let us know if it hurt

yo was that mushroom poisonous yeah basically yeah we're like we're at the like eating poisonous mushrooms phase of uh guys that we want to uh get into a lot of like the product road map and trajectories of the ecosystem as a whole but just a few more details on the merger uh after the this merger is completed and the teams have cohered how big will metamask be how many like employees are we talking about right now uh it's it's uh we just crossed over 50.

wow wow yeah yes yeah yeah yeah and i was thinking yeah a lot of rules um but there's like yeah there's yeah i mean that's like security that's like internal tools that's like you know it's between mobile and extension and the shared libraries and our snaps initiative you know but uh yeah but you still have so that's the core metamask team right and then there's also i think people don't really understand the structure because i didn't understand the structure but you also have uh customer support which is sort of its own uh adjacent it's like a venn diagram there's overlap but it's it's sort of managed in its own way which is uh really efficient and nice and also create some problems uh and then there's

also like codify that is again its own little team right like right yeah yeah they're they're working on a lot of different kinds of just ecosystem enhancing features like the swaps feature in metamask and so it's like another group in consensus that we just collaborate really closely with and like increasingly is becoming like you know a proper part of the team uh like we think of them as one but we don't count them in our head count yeah and that's what i was gonna say is that the head count is weird because uh the reality is that there aren't these like very hard lines in the sand between say metamask codify and support uh however if you look at the the uh i don't know the hr documents

uh there is a very hard line in the sand so it's uh i haven't gotten my head around how big it is now it's kind of insane yeah and uh this question i'm adaptive developers yeah that too this next question i think came from tim baker might have come from danny ryan sorry to whoever asked it on twitter um but my crypto uses an open source license but metamask uses a proprietary one uh so does that mean that my kryptos license is changing or what's going on with that oh yeah if we figure this out does it mean that i don't know that offhand it might mean that or we can figure out an exception for it uh i think we haven't had that conversation yet yeah yeah i mean so just like a comment on a metamask license is like like we we want

to be as as open as possible i think when we when we closed down our license it was partly because we were about to release our first monetization strategy and we were getting forked upstream of our own product meaning we were being competed by with by a platform that could uh distribute us before we could get to our customers so we were nervous that we just wouldn't even get a chance to uh to make any revenue at all um if we come up with any way or any agreement with like the distribution channels i think we'd be really excited and eager to just like drop the license again i think i think long term property licenses aren't going to succeed just because the internet makes everything just so easy to copy and i mean source code's open you can you can

copy it and distribute it on your own if you wanted to you know it's very easy to violate the license i just can't advise that you know um but uh but you know like i i think that long term we're trying to make tools that enable building new social constructs that facilitate uh yeah new new ways of making making money and new ways of doing business and yeah sorry sometimes we uh haven't innovated in the social layer before our technological layer like required revenue and stuff so i think it's kind of like a first mover disadvantage in a way because like you know like of course metamask wanted to be a dao when we started but there were no wallets to build a dao with yet we like had to do the traditional route

um but you know i think we've got support from consensus to like try to you know we we know that you know exit to community is a hard road or whatever but i believe that we have desire to and it's it's really a matter of like figuring out the path um so so yeah people who think about exiting the community who think about new ways of running businesses keep those ideas flowing because i think you know they're going to be the foundation of like everything in the future well i just want to add on a little bit of context like uh metamask is really the first wallet that is actually like uh successfully monetized period and i think that it's

really easy for people to uh especially with the consensus name as well like look at it as uh i don't know like this traditional thing and this big bad corporate dude in the room or like oh they have so much money what are they doing like that those types of ideas but i think it's it's important to realize that one um wallets historically have not monetized at all and if they have it's been basically um acquiring users to push those users to a secondary product um so like one of the older oldest probably bitcoin wallets blockchain their revenue doesn't come from their wallet their revenue came from their block explorer right and advertisements that were served there and stuff and the wallet was just a uh yeah it was a user acquisition tool to

push towards the block explorer and also towards um later on like blending dust and otc dust and stuff so for metamask to do this as a wallet uh and to monetize i think is an important uh thing for the industry because as we discussed the wallet is so so so important and key um and it's important that's aligned with users not that it's just a user acquisition tool for something else um and i think that uh now we will see in the next coming years we've already seen it a little bit uh now other wallets can can raise money on metamask numbers right and say this is the path and if we get this many users this is a a sense of like the money and

the revenue that we can do and they can raise money and that's better for everyone in this ecosystem i want to just like underline that point and then we're going to have to uh you know cut cut to sponsors but maybe like tease the next when you guys say like basically in 2021 wallets and metamask got its business model and prior to 2021 it felt like wallets were a public good and suffered from the public good problem of being underfunded yet like you guys were taking on so much support for the industry now you have a business model and that thing is cranking how do we know this because we can see the revenue flows on chains we're talking a cumulative 300 million dollars collected in fees since inception i can look at that on dune analytics and we might

after the break so we'll cover that in a little bit when we come back david and i think you've got some other things to cover too right oh gosh we have actually saved some of the the best questions for the second half uh including like well after swaps features what future comes next because i've got some ideas especially in the world of uh many many layer twos and bridges uh perhaps a bridge feature is coming maybe i would i would like to pick a guy's brain on that we have a question from vitalik about light clients and we have other questions about social recovery uh and just other things of that nature so we're going to ask all of those questions which can be super super exciting right after we talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible when you shop for

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should go thank you uniswap for sponsoring bankless all right guys we are back with the metamask team and as we alluded to right before the sponsor break the metamouse swap feature has generated millions of dollars almost 300 i think actually over 300 million dollars since inception which is fantastic uh and so dan and and taylor what are the next big products coming out of metamask uh is what's gonna follow a 300 million dollar uh revenue inside of like three or four months or however long it's been introduced what comes after swaps first off i'll just say to taylor's last point like we're not going to go the point the the direction of uh pushing people to ads because i think that like

a wallet's responsibility is to not influence people's buying decisions and so one thing i think we've always been really really like strong-minded about is like we're trying to make product decisions that empower users to be making informed decisions but are not like influencing them or not like facilitating dopamine rushes and addictions towards like you know compulsive trading or anything like that like it took a long time for us to figure out swaps designs where we felt like it was ethical that's very web 3 of you by the way dan yeah thanks for ethos now now if we if we do swaps and we've uh or sorry uh bridges and we have experimented and we had an internal hackathon and we have like a basic one you know we had a basic you know

hackathon level one working um but if we want to do that like we want it to be resilient and a lot of times that would mean like not relying on just one bridge perhaps like so so i think one way we're thinking about it is how can we make either an aggregation of bridges or uh make it user extensible or something um people who know a lot of our past product direction like know that pretty big fans of extensibility like like the only way we're gonna explode as you know with as much ingenuity as the community has is if we let people just kind of add to the options in real time um so so i i do think that bridging is a super legitimate case because it's just one of those things where the user shouldn't have to think about it at all like at

the end of the day like you should not have to care about whether you're on layer two or not like maybe when you're first getting in knowing the risks of where you're keeping your money maybe that's like worth having but then beyond that it's just like having it right um so bridging bridging is credible maybe you know aggregated yields or you know lending or something like that um things where we can help people like choose from a lot of options those are those are on the table but um but they're like going to be supplementary to the core product which is like helping people interact with new stuff use dafs and help other people be creative so there are tons and tons of bridges out there we had like a panel that had like five of them on on for just a layer

two bridging conversation and then there's also a pretty strong handful of bridge aggregators as well that are just aggregating the bridges um and now that metamask has this insane amount of revenue coming in via the swaps feature in this pretty healthy treasury is there a world where metamask just buys an aggregator and just injects it right into the app any bridge aggregators watching feel free to reach out well i i have a follow-up on that so on on the on the subject of bridging right so this is also where we get into you know some education territory or like some risk management territory okay because like obviously we just came off of last

week feels like it was months ago last week there was a 300 million dollar something in that range bridge hack on the solana wormhole bridge and so uh part of our discussion the bridge panel was like hey there are all of these different bridges but users don't know which bridges carry like what degree of risk taylor do you have any thoughts on that as somebody who's been like educating user interfaces in the space you know for six years how do we deal with something like that how do you communicate to a user the risk level of the bridge that they're about to uh cross yeah that is that's the big question and it's not just about bridges it's not just about like uh i guess like educating people about

where their money is this applies to basically everything that the user is doing um and one of the the things that i have been thinking very deeply about for years now is how do we empower each individual user um as like that individual person that they are so that they can make an informed decision and actually give informed consent to the applications or the protocols that they're they're interacting with um because one of the most challenging things as a wallet is like we have people who are brand spanking new we have people who are uh yeah who don't speak english who are in in countries that i've never heard of we have uh and then we have all the way up

to like the most experienced people and like vitalik is you know like that that's a crazy sort of spread of demographics um and so when we're thinking about bridges or we're thinking about features in general um it's all about giving the user the ability to understand the right choice so that they can make it for themselves because we can't know what uh what a individual user's risk tolerance is and one of the explorations that i did i think last year uh with design was like can we have like a like a risk mode like wrecked that our advanced users can like turn on right where they're like yeah just give it all give it all to give me all the most like

cutting edge fun stuff like uh would that be a feasible sort of uh thing that people would would find valuable um and the answer is like well they'll probably get wrapped so maybe not but but it did sort of unlock this uh this pattern of thinking where uh we just we can't know what these are like what their risk tolerance is we can't know if this uh like the account that they have in their metamask is that all of their money or have they over invested have they over extended their personal situation and that's that's their entire thing or is this uh you know one one thousandth of what they hold on just ethereum you know they also have assets spread out everywhere else

and so those are the sorts of uh things we're thinking about uh i think it applies to bridges it applies to signing transactions right so we've been working really hard both both of our teams separately have been working really hard on uh getting people more insight into their transactions um and that's that uh yeah that will only carry us forward uh as we see more and more of uh as we see the technology just being built faster right like it's insane that in what three four years we've gone from like uh we've gone from like i think vitalik after the dao is like don't put more than 10 million dollars in a smart contract

and now there's like billions and millions in a single smart contract just sitting there like it's it's absurd it's insane i would imagine spanning the gamut between like allowing and enabling somebody's grandmother to use crypto and also at the same time enabling vitalik buterin to also use crypto having to spam both of those things it's a tall order and one of the things that we are about to span right now are all the chains um and right right now all the layer twos have this nice fantastic drop down menu where you can go down and just in metamask put down the drop down menu and select your new layer two um is that the final form of what a layer

two metamask looks like or as we go through this great layer two migration how is metamask going to adapt and change to live to allow users enable users to be living this many many multi-chain world yeah we've been we've been thinking about it a lot for a long time and uh we've finally got like some i think really strong designs that we really love that we think are going to carry us well into the multi-chain world where um yeah you should be able to see all your assets uh in one place and yeah possibly all your accounts if you want to look at all your accounts at once and uh even different types hardware wallets contract accounts um you know on on their various chains uh

but like distinguishing visually when those accounts are a different type or if those assets are on a different chain or if like you know if you you can't just roll together like ethan solana eat and expect that to be a good long-term ux that's that's the kind of thing where oh it's gonna look like the best ux at first and and i could totally see people being like oh why don't you do that like this wallet shows those as the same asset right and then you get half wrecked and you're like you know and that's one of those learning moments um but but i do i do think that there's a path to letting people make that choice themselves so like we've got the idea of um you know you should be able to still have a portfolio view and if you want to deliberately treat things as one asset

like like you should be able to also um so um yeah yeah the the network drop down menu is basically like a legacy design thing it's practically left over from a time that i feel like we started and thought ethereum would just carry everything and you know that is just so so long that um you know we you know i think we did a great job of you know kind of coming up with the compromises that built on top of what we have coming up with like an api for adding new networks to your menu and that's that's good enough to carry us for a little while and you know it's like like most of our usage today is not on you know is on non-ethereum networks so so clearly it's like working as like a monkey patch but for the that full

future where we're just like swimming and you know various types of digital authority that from various sources like yeah it'd be cool if you have like an asset manager that just kind of gracefully handles all of it for you is there a world where metamask expands beyond evm chains and starts to talk to other blockchains like solana or tara or anything that doesn't run on an evm well i mean these days just to be an ethereum wallet means running some non-evm stuff right like uh from like fuel labs is roll-ups to i mean even really starkware and zk sync while they're getting like you know uh let's say very close to you know you can compile your solidity to them they're

not true evm machines so supporting ethereum l2s requires us being dynamic enough to support like arbitrary execution environments and so yeah we're working on our we've got our extensibility system snaps in now a totally public auto updating beta called flask so developers can play with that and yeah you can you can build the beginnings of a solana support for metamask today if you wanted to um now it's it's going to be a little while longer we're refining a lot of those apis to make them integrate smoothly into the ui like right now they don't actually add much ui they they give you the ability to add an api to websites so you can kind of start with apps and prompt the

user for consent um which is like kind of our core our core job is like talk to dapps and get consent from the user and then interact with private keys and so that's what snaps can do today but it's going to keep on integrating more and more deeply with the wallet and long term i i think that our support for all chains is going to be pretty much equivalent and it's just going to be like your wallet is this like you know it's like your collection of the chains that you subscribe to the accounts you keep on those and the assets that they contain and then uh this next question comes from uh polynya uh any social recovery uh features coming in the future perhaps yeah yeah of course i mean social recovery is it's been like one of those

things where for so long it i remember it but like at the ux summit in toronto in like 2017 people were like saying research showed people will never accept social recovery so i'm super grateful to to wallets like argent who are like validating it and and i but i think that the design space for user consensual recovery mechanisms is actually huge and so that's again a reason that i'm excited about building an extensibility system because we're going to build a system where you can add arbitrary smart contracts now average person isn't going to on board and then start picking out plug-ins so there's going to be an important phase where we like choose validated solutions and recommend them to people and and i think there's

like a really important responsibility for like stepping users through like what the risk preference is like you know hey do you happen to have a perfect memory have i got a solution you know or do you have some friends you can trust but you know not everybody even has those things um you know so so social recovery as an is an excellent tool i don't think it's a cure-all but i think that it like points at like a a much better direction long term for all sorts of wallets and then sorry go ahead yeah i just wanted to say one thing sorry uh is would the possible flow dan be like let's say you're you're setting up metamask for the first time you get your seed phrase that sort of thing and then there's some kind of a button which is like

oh here's you know third-party smart contract that's you know semi-trusted but it could be a list it could be one it could be multiple where you can activate social recovery not necessarily something that metamask builds but these third parties kind of extend or snap into the metamask ecosystem is that right these third parties you know smart i'm saying what i'm saying is that when we're ready you won't even need to back up your seat base in the first place well i mean like my point is just like well during onboarding we should be able to give people options right the seed phrase is the secret recovery phrase sorry uh is uh we're trying to normalize that because i understand what the heck seed phrase means um uh depending on people's risk preferences

if people are willing to keep a secret maybe the secret recovery phrase is the right solution but if they're going social recovery right off the bat they're like oh yeah no i've got three friends who are crypto you know natives and they all have their accounts backed up so i trust them and i trust their ability to have their accounts back up if we can establish that then yeah we don't need you memorizing keys we just need to know who your friends are um so so yeah like i think i think that like collaborating with the user to figure out the best solution for them is probably the long-term uh answer yeah and i think uh to provide a little bit more context about basically everything that dan says uh dan doesn't isn't thinking about like what the experience is today and what the

experience is tomorrow right so like when we think about like okay social recovery is a thing so metamask can add an option to this one view that exists today so that the user can have a choice uh no no we're talking about like there's a multitude of ways to access your account one of them is the secret recovery phrase one of them is social recovery but there's also uh a whole bunch of current technologies and future technologies that are coming down the pipeline that will enable people to access uh or sign transactions right not even access secrets just sign transactions so uh what dan wants to sort of set up is not specifically putting social recovery in

that one view of metamask but enabling uh an extensible system where anyone who builds something that's worthwhile can add it to metamask and then anyone who finds that thing to be valuable whether it's uh like a safety thing or whether it's in accessing a new experimental high-risk d5 thing they'll be able to do so and as the individual they'll be able to access these different things and that doesn't necessarily uh impact every metamask user right we're talking about 30 million users like it's a big decision to add a single bridge right the consideration is not just like is

this risky or not the consideration is also like um you know what what does it mean for metamasks to put that in and support their development it also means what does it mean to essentially vouch for them and their credibility um and the same applies to not just bridges to everything so by uh sort of just centralizing the uh like the very feature set and also making metamask this sort of core element in which every user has their individual sort of like set of things um that is that's where like that's where we're headed we're not just like trying out social recovery you know what i mean and it's not going to be a short path it's a it's a long-term

vision but it's really exciting it sounds like netscape is getting extensions yeah yeah we're getting there and and one other just example of how like the design space like goes way beyond even social recovery accounts is like not all things even fit the account paradigm so like take the tornado cash voucher for example you go to tornado cash you deposit to me and then you get a new secret to keep track of and it's like right now what do you do with that you like dave it's a desktop yes i don't know like it's like your wallet's keeping a little encrypted vault you know i have password manager is probably a better solution for now but like like being able to just hold all your digital assets like you regardless of like how they're controlled there's like i think a

long-term really really strong you know guiding light for us okay one more uh question before the fun one that everyone wants us to ask which i think people will know is coming is that this one's from vitalik buterin so you know it's a good one uh when like client verification for metamask yeah yeah really it's been such a really long dream and uh you know we had a project called mustacala and we had we had a small team working on it back in the metamask as a public goods that is under funded days and they were you know it probably should have been a you know 20-person team but it was three people and they they were stretched very thin and so we we did not achieve that goal but a lot of those people went on to bigger teams and started working on those bigger clients and uh you know so

some of those ideas went into turbogaf some of those ideas are going into laconic that should be uh launching soon um i'm super eager for those uh the truth is that our team isn't really working on like protocol development so we're kind of like hey you know you you tell us you know like i think we're incredibly eager to to support whatever options uh users could want and especially once we have like let's say a desktop client being able to like let a user turn on various types of clients will be a real option for us um can we can we just zoom out for a minute because um we asked that in uh protocol researcher vitalik language when light client verification but i want to zoom out for so everyone understands they

might have heard this as like there's kind of a metamask dependency on infuria for instance or like third parties to serve the chain and if these api services go down then we can't use metamask that that sort of thing that's what vitalik means by light client verification is that right dan yeah yeah it's it's a way because because today if you want to run a ethereum client and like not have to trust infura for your data you have to run this much more heavyweight process right the ethereum protocol i think was designed to take up a whole personal computer so the average person is not running that on their phone and so yeah plugging into infuria or some you know centrally hosted thing ends up being the norm uh light clients imply that there's a lighter process that the

user might keep on their device you know their laptop phone desktop whatever that might just be a little more practical um you know the thing though is you know metamask does let you connect to any source of information even today so if there were a viable like client today a per you know please ship it as a desktop app write a simple guide to how to point metamask to it we could be doing it already um of course if that gets validated we'll be very eager to fold it into the product um but but yeah like like we we are not really doing that protocol development in a house uh presently so we're really counting it on and hoping for people working on you know uh stateless client design and stuff like that and and very very eager for it to come along

guys this has been a lot of fun absolutely fantastic to have you both on really excited about the merger and how many more millions of monthly active users we can onboard to crypto and onboard to to web3 that's that's what this is all about and i wish i could blame this uh last question on the chat i'm sure they've asked but the secret is david and i really wanted to to ask as well and i feel like this is fair game dan because you you mentioned the term exit to community so we gotta ask when mask token is that a thing is that coming is there anything you can say about that um i can probably say that it's not enough of a thing that you should be getting excited about it right now

yes it's that do not change your behavior because someone on the internet told you there's a match okay yeah if if some new account messages you and lets you know about the upcoming airdrop they're probably lying um we've got we've got ideas for tokens and you know and we're we've got permission to explore those ideas but you know the truth is like like we were saying about you know our job is to keep users safe so when we endorse something like it it has the potential to just absolutely undermine all of our credibility so like we're gonna if we do anything we're gonna do it because we got it right um you know and a lot of the utility you know a lot of the token ideas we have

they might not be the things that people would be excited about you know i think people would be excited to just get an airdrop in their wallet well you know like i said on a recent interview like unfortunately we've done okay at keeping our users private so we actually don't know who all our users are um you know there are things we could do you know they're you know but those things become gameable as soon as people circulate they're like just use swaps a lot it's like okay well if we're trying to do a fair drop we're not gonna over rely on that you know we're not trying to pick something that you can game um so you know just make responsible decisions uh for yourself and we if we choose to do any token to enable our product we'll get it to you in the

most responsible way possible don't try to game it don't try to don't trust links since you on twitter um just like let it be a surprise when it unexpectedly happens in the very distant future it sounds like sure taylor's really like pump the brakes guys so it sounds like you guys are approaching the token with the way that you approach everything else uh every other feature about metamask which is with caution with patience and with saying no before you say yes so it sounds like you guys are into the concept or possibility of a token and are ready to say yes to it if the if the idea is right and if you guys discover the optimum use case in a way that

aligns with you guys as ethos and treats your guys as users the way that you want to treat them uh a legend token alleged token token yeah yeah yeah yeah i think yeah that that's probably the most fair take i just want to emphasize like uh not only do we have like pretty severe ptsd from years of people uh uh uh making empty promises in return for tokens that then end up users of our products and emailing our support right like not only that but we've also seen like the variety of ways that uh incentives can just like kind of muck everything up and and end up uh i guess more exploitative than than uh

empowering and so when i think about like a token when i think about uh i guess the goal of all this right uh i think about how will this improve the user's life like an individual user's life and i got that doing an airdrop improves everyone's life you know dropping free money on people's faces but you know it's uh it's got to be fair uh i think it's got to be empowering um and i think it really has to be careful about the incentives that that we create we don't want to create an incentive to uh say uh you know a third party an outside malicious person we don't want to create that incentive for them to to attack

every metamask user right and we don't necessarily even want to uh like kind of put every metamask user on blast by saying hey there's a metamask user go get them and so these are all the sort of concerns that we have um and i think that lastly i just want to comment that uh some of the most important people i guess uh in this space to metamask as a product are not uh necessarily the users like they're there who get the most attention but dapp developers are probably like uh insanely important um and it's it's because there is something to do on ethereum that metamask has the users it does uh and it's also because there's things

to do at the end that users have things to do right and money to make and games to play so um how i'm sort of like looking at the different potentials and and uh thinking about this is like you have these distinct groups and they all interact in certain ways how can we create something that empowers all of them and makes all of them better um and also like funds good things coming forward right not just dropping free money but actually uh i don't know incentivizing good building and best practices well there you go guys uh no math token to announce today of course maybe it's on the distant horizon we don't know but if metamask does it uh they're gonna do

it right is the comment maybe it's outside and hopefully they'll do a live stream with us yeah exactly come back on that day if if such a day were to occur in the future anyway guys it's been a pleasure thanks for talking about wallets with us such an important application for crypto we really appreciate it thanks for having us thanks for having us also uh we forgot uh if you want to work for us because we're like always hiring please like get in mere dance dms because uh we're growing our team like a lot a lot a lot especially security and uh devrel marketing communications people as we say so often in in crypto get a job in crypto 2022 should be the year you get a job in crypto like we have

sustainable business models okay like we have recurring revenue uh get a job so uh we will link to taylor and dan's twitter accounts and uh hopefully you get some interested applications in your dms of course guys risks and disclaimers none of this has been financial advice this entire journey is risky ethan is risky bitcoin is defy is you can definitely lose what you put in but we are headed west this is the frontier it's not for everyone but we're glad you're with us on the bankless journey thanks a lot hey we hope you enjoyed the video if you did head over to bankless hq right now to develop your crypto investing skills and learn how to free yourself from banks and gain your financial

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