Will CLARITY Pass Or NOT?! CONVERGENCE Launch!

Transcript

17 floor. We'll see you around the timeline. Feels good to be back. >> I think The Rollup is one of the most premier media brands in crypto and Andy and Robbie are great experts at everything they talk about and it's my favorite podcast. >> Adding it to my library every week.

potentially multi-chain deployments. >> We are at connect day one here. I'm guessing from space. Corola is headed to the top. If we're

not already at the top, we're going to the tongue. >> Roll up is my favorite. >> People from all walks of life, all over the world, all over this industry come together for the roll up. Zoom out. The institutions aren't

coming. They're simply here. It's the golden age of crypto, guys. Get right. Let's go. Welcome to the nest. See you on the show. >> Comfy in spot. Comfy in spot. Comfy in spot. Comfy in spot. I am feeling comfy in my spot positions. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the rollup. Today is Tuesday, September 15th. It's Clarity Act voting day. Rob, it's great to have you in the tower, man. Let's go, man. >> Good to see you, Andy, my lovely co-host. Welcome to the tokenization tower in New York. This is the rollup.

Last night, we interviewed Hunter Biden. We talked about his memecoin laptop. Today we're announcing a new product from the rollup and we have a couple of partners uh that we're going to bring on to talk about it. And I'm excited. I'm excited. So, we're going to get into it. We're going to have a fantastic show before and after Clarity and Clarity Act is going to either pass. We're going to get a closure or we're not going to get a closure. Either way, I am excited for this week. It's a big big week. Andy, what do you think? >> It's a big week. It's a big week, guys. And we have a lot to talk about today.

We have the Clarity Act closure vote. We're going to cover that. We're going to live stream the actual vote and be on the dot covering it around two I would say we're going to be airing it from 2:15 to 3:15, but around 2:45 we'll really be online 3:00 covering what happened. We think the closure vote likely goes through. So, we'll see what happens there. We also I don't know about the actual clarity bill itself, but I think the Cloerville makes it to the point where they establish the rhetoric that the bill does need to exist. I think that's where we get today, but we shall see. Then we have obviously Hunter Biden recap. We got the whole show after that as well. Uh and more. But before we get started guys, if you're watching on Jacqueline's X or

YouTube or Strata Media or token relations or talking tokens, let us give you an introduction to Jacqueline the convergence launch. We put this product idea together about four months ago, five months ago now. We were iterating on what this space needs to take this next step, this intersection of finance and onchain finance. And here we are today with the first episode of Convergence with Wisdom Trees, Will Peek, the their head of digital assets. This episode was hosted by myself and Jacqueline last Friday, so it's very fresh and it covers all the things that you guys want to hear about tokenization, tokenizing equities, trillions of dollars coming on chain, how it's happening, what Wizryree is doing, and more. And for those of you

guys who are your Jacqueline fans, that makes two of us. She's the founder and CEO of Strata Media, uh, which is the home to token relations and the award nominated show Talking Tokens. She's also the co-host of Crypto in America, a veteran journalist and entrepreneur. She previously led crypto crypto coverage at TechCrunch and is a senior reporter scaling its digital asset coverage, the latest or fastest growing newsletter at that time. She's covered DeFi, Dows, L1's, LC. She's got one of the best newsletters in this entire industry. Rob and I are proud to partner with Jacqueline, with Strata Media and the their entire team through this process.

We truly think that they are some of the best uh best team, most honest, high integrity, smart, hardworking people in the industry and we're truly we're it's truly our pleasure to have Jacqueline in our court on our corner. Uh she's amazing and we are stoked to get this first episode out. What does convergence mean to you? What's your take here? Look, we met Jacqueline a long time ago in the industry, but it was Denver at ETH Denver of this past year where I think we just ran into Jacqueline at a side event. Uh it was Andy, myself, and Jacqueline and there was we're at this taco side event. I forget who was hosting it, but we kind of started to just converge around the idea that this

is happening. This was very much at the precipice of crypto's institutional era. This digital asset fi digital finance thing was just now starting to become a little bit more ubiquitous amongst the institutions. We were seeing kind of the rumblings of DTC getting involved and some of the other, you know, digital asset programs that were starting to manifest themselves inside of some of these these banks and these more traditional financial institutions. I mean, if you look back, that was in March or April or February of this year. We're about 6 months from then.

>> Oh, we're so close. The DTCC pilot program next month. I mean, we're going to get rules and regulations soon. >> And and I think this is just evidence that, you know, we kind of recognized that this was happening. And then over the last 6 months, we really start to see the traction. We see multiple banks roll out stable coin programs and start to explore that front. We see multiple brokerages embrace tokenized equities. We see so many crypto brokerages at traditional asset management firms start to roll out their digital asset offerings. And so the progress on the institutional front over the last 6 months I think has really set the stage for getting this product off the ground.

I wasn't here for the initial interview with Will, but I am excited to see it. And I think this is indicative of what the really the most prominent phenomenon in tokenization and in finances right now and that is tokenization. And that is the convergence between finance and digital assets. And I've seen conferences start to evolve their entire strategy into digital finance. And for so long finance was it was running on paper. People were down in the pit on Wall Street shouting back and forth and trading pink slips. That was how finance was brokered. And we have gone through so many fundamental phase shifts in tech

and finance. I mean it started with the internet. Now you have AI as an acceleration and I think now you have blockchain and digital assets as well that are just going to accelerate down this path. We say that a tokenized asset tends to stay tokenized. And I think what this convergence product is is it's going to tell the story of finance starting from really the beginning of of this era and forward. And I think this is laying the groundwork for everyone who wants to learn something about tokenization, learn something about digital finance, learn something about digital assets and understand where this space is going. I think this is the educational product that is going to help people understand how the next

decade of finance is going to work, how it should be built, and ultimately what the characteristics are for people to think ahead about what is coming. So, I'm excited. Let's go, man. Let's give Rob some love. Let's give the convergent product some love. >> Andy's obviously excited as well, >> guys. We're going to get the first episode to you guys now. It's about 354 minutes. We got clarity. We got closure. We got markets. We got Hunter Biden to go over. I'm telling you, today's show is going to be a movie. Don't go anywhere. This was extremely educational and very fun. 10 seconds standby. We're gonna get Will Peek, head of digital assets at Wisdom Tree, who went from $30 million in AUM to over a billion on chain. He's coming up now with me and your lovely co-host, Jacqueline Melanic.

Let's get this party started, y'all. I'll be right back. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Convergence, the show powered by the rollup and token relations talking about the convergence of legacy finance and onchain finance. We're here today with Jacqueline. I'm Andy and welcome to the show.

>> Yes, we're excited to be here and more importantly, we're going to be introducing our guests in just a second, but I think maybe a little background on this, why we decided to launch convergence. It's basically a simple thing. Everyone's using the term, the conversation around crypto, traditional finance has changed and it's all coming together into one. And we thought it would be great to launch this show and have it powered by Wisdom Tree. So without further ado, we'd like to bring on our guest. >> Welcome to the Tokenization Tower. Will, >> good afternoon, guys. Great to be with you. >> It's great to have you here. >> Yeah. Will maybe just a quick intro about what you do at Wisdomree, your backstory, and why you're so passionate about this convergence that's happening right before our eyes.

>> Yeah, absolutely. So, as I'm sure the screen says, I'm head of digital assets at Wisdom Tree. Wisdom Tree, global asset manager, ETF sponsor, manage, you know, about $170 billion in asset center management today. Uh so I've been uh at the firm now for like 12 years and then doing everything in crypto, blockchain, onchain financial services for about the past six years. Uh and so uh you know, Wisdom Tree thinks of ourselves as an innovator and onchain financial services is kind of very clearly like the next wave of innovation happening in financial services and so um very excited to be a big part of it. We think >> I mean you've been building in this space for a number of years. So do you actually think that convergence is happening today and it's warranted?

>> Yeah, definitely. I mean, more so now than ever before. Like I remember going to some of these events, you know, six years ago and there's like kind of the same cohort of people who were there at the time. And it's just like one of those things like you're kind of like talking into a wall it feels like and it actually um so a lot of the people that I worked with at Wisdom Tree have been in like the ETF space for a long time and it's interesting talking to them about it where they used to feel like they used to be going around 20 years ago talking to people about this thing called ETFs and why they're better than mutual funds and how this is going to be the future of asset management and again it felt like you were banging your head against the wall and so um that never

really scared me that there'd be stuff where you're you know kind of pitching stuff talking and um things kind of happen over time and so um it does feel like there's a lot more happening now. Now we could talk about regulatory distribution other reasons why uh but it it does feel like a good moment to kind of be in the space and have been in it for a while >> you know will I totally agree right it's been just a total you know growth phase right since Genius Act we've seen the rise of tokenized assets on chain explode clarity's you know very clarity >> clarity is kind of here we'll see >> clarity may come we'll see what happens but clearly this trend is just snowballing and we're calling it the convergence which I think is very accurate and so I just want to know what

this term means to you and what this kind of you know series means to the Wizree team. >> Yeah, I mean I think convergence like it maybe it's not going to feel like so much of like separate systems or some things that are kind of on the side and actually adding value for um you know lots of use cases in financial services using this new infrastructure. maybe talk about the infrastructure even a bit less in this and more about the outcomes that you're getting where people aren't thinking oh I'm using a stable coin for this because like XYZ reasons but it's just like the thing that you're using kind of just like you wouldn't think about RTP or whatever it is right um so maybe that's kind of some of it but I I I think certainly like I don't know every major firm on Wall Street has like

big digital assets teams um onchain financial services teams whatever you want to call it uh focused on this so very clearly like it's not trady DeFi, but it's just kind of like financial services and there's different methods for delivering it, right? >> I know that Wisdom Tree has been in this space for over half a decade, half a decade or so. Um, in comparison, some teams and big financial firms have been coming in over the past like 12 to 18 months, right? So, what was kind of the impetus back then, if you could think to the early days for Wisdom Tree on getting into digital assets and like how has it ultimately evolved? Was it in line with what you imagined? Yeah, I mean I I think um broadly yes. I mean there's definitely been some kind of changes there. I mean

the impetus for us getting involved was just that like I said at the outset like we're a um think of ourselves as a disruptor. Um we're kind of important and you know we're still founder like our CEO is kind of important in how ETFs ultimately became the thing that they became. And um you know so I was fortunate to work for him and you know him asking the questions of like hey what's going to do to ETFs what ETFs did to mutual funds or like what's going to be like this next wave of innovation in asset management financial services broadly and not being scared to say that you know it's something related to crypto which like back in 2018 was like not so obvious or common right definitely >> um not saying oh it needs to be some big private blockchain that's like staffed by a bunch of like bank consortium

members right uh saying like no we can do this on like public infrastructure that's where like the benefit benefits come, things like that. Not being afraid of like that innovation and like not being afraid to say like, "Yeah, this could be disruptive for like our current business today and other businesses, but kind of being willing to walk into that." I I think that led to us kind of seeing it early and um being a part of it early. So, for sure. >> Yeah. >> I mean, right place, right time. We had the Robin Hood CEO um on CNBC just a couple days ago answering questions almost squirmishly with regards to why this tokenized stock craze has kind of started on Robin Hood chain. But the one specific thing that stood out from him was his answer about distribution about the US equities market specifically

being one of the greatest quote unquote exports of this country. Right? If you look at for example the Chinese equities market, it is much more flatlined over the last 30 years than the US equities market. And this goes for a lot of other countries in terms of total size and scale of returns. Now his answer was look there is so many people who have a very hard time getting access to these equities in in fact it's impossible to get access to these equities outside of people in the US or if you have like an interactive brokers account because you're high net worth and so his answer was all around the distribution of basically kind of emanating equities and US products globally y

>> and so from your perspective I think you're probably thinking about the distribution of Wisdom Tree's products non-stop as well as just like where this is all going. So, I guess very broad, where is this all going? Like where is this distribution question going? >> Yeah. No, it's great. I um I don't actually agree with everything that Vlad says, but I very much agree with that. Like I think, you know, there was this report uh JP Morgan put out like I think it was a month or two ago about like how dominant US capital markets have become. Like it's truly what allows us to have so much influence of peace in addition to like a giant navy, right? that allows us to have so much influence around the world. Uh, and I think it's like, you know, people like to, you know, badmouth financial services in some case, but

like it is so competitive and like the scale of it has gotten to be like so massive and like so many people are participating in it now. Clearly like the world wants to be involved in it, right? We also have some of like the best oversight and like kind of rules and regulations around like how US capital markets work. And so I think some of what tokenization onchain financial services can allow is like exporting this not just like the securities but like the way we do things around the world right giving more and more people access to it and for things that allow them to meet their financial goals right where like the rest of the world can kind of get some of the benefits of like the competition um like the ruthless competition we see from financial services firms in the United

States. So, um, you know, for us, all this stuff, right, tokenization onchain is about distribution and user experience. Like, we don't view this in any sense as like, oh, we're trying to like save a few basis points on costs. It's not it, right? Like, that's kind of like the wrong way to think about it. For us, this is about like who can we provide access to or how can we serve people who want to be served in a different way, right? where it's not like everyone wants to log into like for all types of times they need an asset management product, log into their brokerage account and like place a trade there and wait T+1 for it to settle, right? Like there's lots of use cases where they want to do a different type of transaction, want it to settle faster, want to pledge it as collateral

and def lots of stuff that they might need or they they don't have access to a new US brokerage account where you know onchain securities can serve that need. So um that's how we try to think about it and um I think it's the right way to kind of approach this uh you know opportunity. I agree with you on that on the front end of distribution too and I think it differs depending on who you're serving and a lot of the conversation uh that I know me and Andy have been having is around institutional adoption but not for nothing there is the retail audience and they're huge and they're important as well right so how do you think about distribution when it comes to okay we're serving an institutional audience versus retail because they are not the same >> yeah for sure but what one thing that's

interesting about ETFs is I love you know I always hear from all of it but like these ETF kind of histories is that when ETFs first kind of came about, it was like, well, is this like an institutional product or is it like a retail product? I don't really know how to place it. And the answer was it's an everyone product, right? Like it was the best possible product. It worked well for institutions and for retail, right? Like some of the first users of this would have been like people in like the Midwest who aren't financial service professionals but had like an Erade account and they're like, "Wait, this is like a better type of way for me to invest in like this broad basket of stocks, right?" So um that's the not to say that this is like perfect like there's certainly going to be

institutional things and retail things right but like our attitude tries to be like we want to build the best possible product and make it as applicable for the widest um audience of people whether they're the largest institution in the world or just like a retail investor. >> Um so again not always perfect doesn't always exactly work out that way but um I I think like >> you're doing like we believe like retail is like a core part of this. Sure. Like all of this stuff in tokenization is not going to be like oh can I do like one better collateral management product for like you know some big uh financial service market participant. It's about um also serving retail as well.

>> Yeah. And so will I mean I'm curious what the obstacles are because >> you I got wind from some confidential sources that there's a imminent tokenization innovation exemption coming in replacement of the clarity act. Now, that is the polarizing part for people that I got quite a bit of yelled at for on on the timeline, but but the reality is clarity may be unlikely, but this tokenization exemption seems extremely likely and very soon. And I don't know the exact details, but it feels like there's just kind of like the gates and the water is like like the dams kind of tipping over and it's kind of dripping over, but we're we're on the precipice of kind of like the floodgates opening, right? What is stopping us from your

perspective? What are the obstacles that you're still looking to overcome here? Is it regulatory? Is it education? What is that? >> Yeah, I mean the obstacles as I think about them relates to what you're talking about, you know, really liquidity and onboarding, right? And like to facilitate kind of the strong liquidity in tokenized products and to facilitate kind of easy onboarding to them while still maintaining the permission nature or at least like compliant with US like AML and securities rules. >> Sure. um that requires like both product development, commercial coordination and like regulatory stuff to happen. So like um you know I don't view the innovation exemption as like a replacement for the Genius Act. It's more of just like this is like the tool like this is what the

SEC does, right? Like the SEC has all the tools in the toolkit to regulate and rulemake securities markets like in a technology neutral way, right? It doesn't matter whether you're recording these securities on a blockchain or you're recording it in like some paper, you know, database like they used to be, right? It's like technology neutral regulation and it's a security and so like the SEC has the ability to do rulemaking around that that takes lots of different forms right but I I think the things like innovation exemption also you didn't mention this but like potential changes to regs right like those are the types of things that like you need to see in order for tokenized securities to develop like liquid markets around them especially onshore like within the US regulatory perimeter so um that's just like that's happening like the the train has left the station

uh on at and so um I think like there's going to be continued stuff there and then there also needs to just be like >> distribution commercial coordination like meeting people where they are that's also happening right like postgenius act I mean it's been like a uh day and night from where things used to be with people saying like yeah I'm comfortable with like >> getting wallets right and like doing wallet management and like providing this as an option to like users that I already have today um and so um I think with that it's just like going to be some time and just like continued effort bringing that forward. But I really do think um you know things are moving.

>> Yeah. I mean even last month we saw that the DTCC announced that about 40 firms were doing pilots including like JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, Invesco, Citadel uh simulating essentially normal trading using tokenized equities. Uh and the trial kind of tested a number of trading activities and we'll kind of see where that goes. But what does that kind of indicate to you about the expansion on the horizon right now when we're having such big firms like that do these tests? >> Totally. I mean I think you know DTCC got that um kind of milestone no action letter and you know for your audience for you know whoever is listening uh there's u they're unique firm and like they're a market utility in some ways right memberowned firm where they're owned by kind of largest kind of participants in the network um and so um but the fact that and it's actually

interesting you know Wisdom Tree used to be an investor in a business that they bought it's a currency which kind of has formed the basis for like the DTCC digital assets technology that they're doing >> and so Um I think it's great that they're doing that. I think that's one model certainly by which people are bringing assets on chain and um I think it just kind of continues to go that this is evolving beyond like the experimentation phase and like people are getting into it depending on the firm and the model and like their energy and ability in kind of varying degrees of like deepness at this point if that makes sense.

>> Yeah. And then will on that note from what I understand the way the DTC started was they kind of started to take stock certificates and put them on electronic machines and there was just kind of this group of companies that started to do it and then all of a sudden they became like the committee right it was almost like uh right place right time and maybe I'm like missing something. No, no. I mean that's that is a story that it used to be like you know paper settlement, right? Where you were had like essentially safe deposit boxes and you were like moving share certificates amongst different people after the trades had settled, right? So like people would make the trades on the New York Stock Exchange and then to like do the settlement associated with them, you had people running around Yeah.

these paper certificates and eventually you get these huge backlogs where they'd like need to shut the market down for like days because they were catching up on getting all of these uh security certificates to the right place. And so the DTC's history was that was kind of provided as like a solution to this where they said instead of like running these around everywhere, we're going to have like one central location and we're going to keep track of like well person A owns this, person B owns this or broker A, broker B. And that's kind of like you can see the basis for like DTC, central securities depositories generally. Um, >> and so now, >> well, >> and so now I'm thinking and like kind of like what I'm getting to here is >> is like is is there a onchain version of this happening >> as we speak, right? Like is there is

Alpaca and the issuers and other players like yourselves kind of forming this new world, this new onchain finance community? Like how is that happening? >> Well, I think it gets to like these different models of tokenization that people talk about, right? And like the SEC as we're kind of singing their praise and lots of stuff put out this very clarifying framework which kind of aligned with how a lot of people are thinking about it uh earlier this year which talked about like there's issuer sponsored tokenization uh or issuerled tokenization there's like third party tokenization right and then you've got different models within that so like issuer-led tokenization would be like wisdom tree saying hey I'm issuing a fund our money market fund right and I'm saying that like we are tokenizing keeping track of the share records this

way as tokens on blockchains And like we are the issuer of that. That's what we are doing, right? Issuer sponsor tokenization. You know, our friends at Superstate do this with like opening bell, right? Where they're saying like, "Hey, we're going to like a a um a an a corporate coming to us and saying like, hey, I want to issue my shares onchain like Superstate will help them do that, right? So that's issuer sponsor tokenization. Then there's this third party tokenization, which is like this, right? Well, there's a couple different models there. Like one is just like security entitlements which is what DTC does where they say hey there's like a security entitlement you have and we issue a token against that but like and that's really how like the US equity market works in lots of ways today right so like you log into your Robin Hood

account >> not buying the token but just like buying like a share of Tesla there right really what like >> there's a Robin Hood as a clearing member has like a bunch of shares of Tesla they keep track of the records and they know hey Andy's got five Jack he's got two right and that's how that works Right. So, what you have is a security entitlement that's issued by Robin Hood through DTC. Um, so there's a security entitlement model which lines up with how DTC is doing it. And then there are these kind of rapper synthetic models that people talk about where you know Matt Lavine's money stuff this week. I think didn't totally explain it clearly but like got on like the general trend of it. Y >> um where it can either be like well I've got like kind of an SPV that either is

holding the shares or really giving a claim against the shares right which kind of looks like a securitiesbased swap saying that um hey you know I'm telling you that this is like um >> you know I don't want to pick out any letter cuz all those letters are like you know token A and um I tell you token A is worth the price of Tesla right but like >> are you on Tesla's share like who's the shareholder of record claim on >> that what Vlad was answering ing on CNBC and I don't >> and AMC is the token in question on that front. Yeah. >> And so I don't think we need to get too deep into all the models here for the sake of today. But I think what's happening is is what you're illustrating as we're going through the initial iteration of figuring out what's the

best way, what's the most compliant way, what's the way that's going to be the easiest and most efficient. And so it just feels like we're on the frontier here. >> Oh, totally. And I I think we're going to see a lot of shake out of these different models, right? Right. And it's really like I think people everyone's trying to innovate in the right way and try to get the best possible combination of like user experience and like regulatory status, right? And functionality and um >> but it's you can clearly see by these different models that are developing that they don't all like people are doing different things. um which um and we'll see how it kind of develops. And I think the most important thing is hopefully like everything's done responsibly and like we don't have like any bad outcomes that happen like you kind of saw with like um you know some

of the preo companies where people were like oh I have this SPV that holds shares of Anthropic and then they're finding out after the fact that oh they never own those shares or their shares were done by like some sort of faulty transfer not in compliance with Anthropic's rules. So like those are bad things that happen and like I think um >> it'd be good for the industry not to do that. uh in this situation. >> So if we could ask you more directly then, what do you think is the answer? Is it issuer-led? Is it wrapped? Or is it kind of for the market to decide and then we all just watch and see? >> So we're focused on issuerled, right? Like we're focused on doing issuer-led tokenization within the US regulatory perimeter. Um we're a you know fund manager. We're issuing funds, not

necessarily single securities, right? Uh but um that um >> single stocks I should say. Yeah. But as as a fund manager like this lines up very well and you know what our challenge like what the team and I deal with every day is how do you do this kind of within the US regulatory perimeter and then get the best possible functionality and user experience out of it. Right? So that's the real challenge and that's where we when we win business we think it's on a combination we know it's on a combination of doing things within kind of the US regulatory perimeter and uh also adding really good functionality around it. Uh so like the example that um you know we talk about is like we got a exemptive relief from the SEC to allow our tokenized money market fund to trade 24/7 via broker dealer which um is like actually allows

you to like swap it for a stable coin at like 2 a.m. on a Sunday and like go make your payment right makes it more composable and workable within like DeFi uh really onchain workflows and that was a process by which we you work with the SEC and when and made filings and stuff like that. So that's when I say like combining functionality and like the regulatory status, that's kind of what I mean. So yeah, that's what we see as being our big challenge because we view like going back to the start like US capital markets like if you want to get big, you got to do stuff within the US capital markets and be able to do things on shore.

>> I think also I want to point out that wisdom tree went from about 30 million to 770 million to over a billion dollars in aum. >> That is quite the journey up and I would imagine it's probably going to keep going, right? So that's the hope, right? >> But what do you think has really driven the maybe hockey stick growth there? Was it treasuries, money market funds or something else that's driving like mainly institutional capital, right? >> Yeah. Yeah, it is uh mainly institutional D, but like we've built this all in a way that can be retail accessible, right? So I mean for kind of tokenized real world assets generally changing a bit with the some of the tokenized stocks, but it's really been money market funds and treasuries, right? Which is just like a complement to stable coins. So people were looking like stable coins became a very big

thing over time, right? Stable coins especially postgenius act at least it was challenging to get yield on them at least without relying on DeFi or kind of kind of various things and so money market funds as a yieldbearing kind of stable value complement to stable coins and also a reserve asset for stable coins uh was the biggest thing. So the use cases that we're serving are really you know stable coin issuers um you know our money market fund is used by them treasury management so businesses who are using stable coins for payments wanting to hold a kind of yield bearing government money market fund uh alongside of it uh and then collateral management so u just having a better collateral instrument that's yield bearing allows hedge funds you know kind of part of securities lending other transactions uh to um you know uh get

them that good experience. So that's really what's driven the growth to date uh has been those and then increasingly I expect especially in the near future it'll be increasingly retail as well. >> Yeah. Um what do you expect to be the driver for the next era? Well really it's just what is going to evolve and explode in 2027 that you guys maybe don't have yet or are planning to have? I mean, you know, you probably can't talk too much about plans here, but where do you see areas of growth specifically and how are you thinking about Wisdom Tree positioning for that growth?

>> Yeah, I mean, in the future, we see anything that can be held in like a traditional ETF can be held in like an onchain version as well. And the benefits of having it onchain is like that true 247 continuous trading and settlement model for it. And so, I think one of the challenges that people are kind of coming to today is how do we actually have like a good trading experience around that? Yeah, like if I can buy like an S&P 500 ETF in my brokerage account for like pennywide spreads, right? Like it's it's an amazing investing experience. There isn't like, you know, there's no need right now to like totally replicate that for like the onchain universe, but like you want them to have a good trading experience where they're not going to be trading at like 100 bips wide on the spread, right? Yeah. And so um that

requires kind of a good kind of market structure around it and also capital and like liquidity provision into that in an efficient way. And so um I mean one of the biggest things that we're going to need to see and like I think it's going to be the case over the next you know 12 18 months like you said is the development of markets allowing for that within the US regulatory perimeter. So that's what we are very very focused on. Um, you know, we've got this filing in with the SEC for a tokenized ETF which would kind of provide the framework by which there could be a fund vehicle that could do this. Y >> um and um you know, there's some other innovation stuff happening for there. So that's for sure one. And then the second piece is like I just think the onboarding experience needs to kind of

grow up a bit and like improve broadly in the space where like you want retail investors being able to onboard once and then get access to a lot of stuff potentially in the future whether reliance models like there's a lot of innovation stuff you can do especially with this technology where like there's so much that's transparent on chain um that you can get real good judgments on like knowing if somebody's like touching mixers or like affiliated with a terrorist group and like that, right? And so, um, I think there's a lot that can happen there and, um, I think that's just going to make it easier for people to come on board, right? And, um, that that's going to need to be really important as well.

>> I think also a question I have for you is as more assets move on chain, how do you think about diversification beyond treasuries and stable coins? And then when you think about SEC registered funds too, like what is kind of the opportunity there? Yeah, I mean I think it's um like I said, anything that could be an ETF, I think it's going to start with kind of like the major market benchmarks. Uh so you can think like US large cap stocks, right? Like uh US 500 for example. Uh it could be similar things internationally. But what people are going to want to do, especially in an environment where these are trading 24/7, like you want good pricing around them 24/7 and like single stocks do not always have good pricing like on like you have to have really wide spreads like overnight or over the weekend

necessarily, right? where there is kind of a price for like the S&P 500 like around the clock. And so um I or kind of house view is that like focusing on like the major indexes, major categories of beta, what we call them in ETFs is um going to be like the first wave of innovation and notably I've just been talking about like liquid instruments. >> Sure. >> Um like we're relatively less, you know, bearish might be a strong term, but like less focused on like doing private markets through tokenized forms. Y >> like I I think >> the challenge is really around taking this technology, this like database that constantly updates, right, that operates 24/7 and seeing how you can fit like liquid instruments to like best take

advantage of that more so than like private assets that like maybe trade or settle like on a 30-day basis, whatever it might be, right? Like the challenge like the the issue with the experience for those is not because of the recordeping layer in my opinion, >> right? Yeah. I you know I think of it as like a barbell of speculation versus nonspeculation. You've got like non-speculative assets which is treasuries and stable coins. They're exploding and then equities on the other on the other side pretty much you know exploding. But then you've got these like illlquid private credit VC firms or like you know a VC book um even real estate.

>> These things are marked to market you know quarterly you know by annually right they also have a ill liquidity premium y right and so you're kind of taking the genie out of the bottle a little bit with private credit as an example by marking it to market every single Ethereum block. you know, there's kind of a bit of like uh there's going to be quite a bit of push back, but then there's also going to be, you know, additional benefits, but I think generally agree. And I'm I mean, if you wanted to add anything there, I've got a kind of a broader question about what's going to happen here, but just any thoughts there? >> No, no, I I think you're right. I think they're um like tokenizing it does not magically bring it liquidity or price, right? And so if something is not

getting traded or the spreads are really wide on it like um you know it's just the benefits of having it like kind of continuously up on chain um might not necessarily might like there could be sources of capital that are cheaper on chain etc for borrowing against it. So I don't want to be like overly dismissive but um I I think um I think there are other things with private markets that can get better and solve first before like putting it on chain kind of makes them magically more liquid. Yeah, I'd love to hear more about what you guys are doing specifically, but this has just, you know, brought me to this question that I've asked quite a few guests, which is if this tokenization thesis is correct and trillions of dollars of assets come on chain in the next, you know, 12, 18, 36 months, who

wins? What companies are, you know, from the investor, you know, put your investor hat on, who wins? How do you allocate capital into this kind of trend? Who loses? Who who do you who do you short? Who are you longing? Who are you shorting? maybe not actually like investing, but just kind of walk us through the hypotheticals here. >> Yeah, I mean I think you're going to see people who try and make their products like most usable to investors embracing it in that environment who would like presumably take in a higher share, right? So like that's what Wisdom is trying to do, right? So like whatever our market share is of ETS, we want it to be much greater than kind of like the tokenized equivalence.

>> Um so I I think that's going to be one person that you could see win. I I think there are certain intermediaries that are part of like financial services transactions today. I mean, everyone says this who like potentially could be like not winners in this and losers, right? When you've got a database that's kind of constantly updating, right? Like a public blockchain um and that just functions differently where there's like less kind of friction in the system necessarily where uh there could be um losers that way as well. I mean big big picture like this should open like closed ecosystems should like be under pressure with this, right? where it's just like you've got these open standards like it should be kind of like a no walled gardens sort of world going forward. And uh so that's what we try to

keep in mind when we're building stuff is like how does this work with like No Gardens. And um so um anyone who's trying to like hang on to customers or like squeezing revenue out of their customers that way uh should hopefully be a loser. And hopefully this should give people more choice and a greater ability to pipe in financial services from different places into like the same UX in some ways, right? Is maybe one way to think about it. Uh, so you're not just like signing up with your bank when you're 18 years old going off to college and then next thing you know you're getting every single financial services product in your life from that same bank because it's like they've trapped you.

Um, >> we don't want that to happen. So like um >> the end user is the winner. >> Yes, I hope so. Um, yeah, that that should be the way that it goes. >> Yeah. Do you kind of see as we're in this like quasi bull market and Andy would probably say bull market, right? but um that the market for opportunity is better than it ever has been before because even when we were in a bare market, you know, Wisdom Trees AUM was going up. And so I've heard from a number of people too is that like the institutional investors weren't really focused on price, they were still building in the back end, piloting, testing things out. So, if we put all these pieces together, like stable coins, tokenized funds, 24/7 trading, which we didn't really fully get into in this episode, but I know that's

something that you're well versed on as well. Is it kind of creating a perfect storm for more mainstream adoption? >> Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think like some of the big things that I I find really interesting recently have been like these announcements from like the large US broker dealers, right, around like incorporating wallets into their platform, which is like a big infrastructure move for them, right? So like that's like a multi-year infrastructure product uh process for them to be able to do that. And you've seen some of like um you know crypto firms crypto infrastructure firms building products to be able to like give them that wallet and trading management that they need. So like that's a huge unlock for the space for making it way more convenient for like a lot of people to come and say like oh I can like oh this is settling instantly.

Oh I can move a stable coin around instantly like that. Right. So um yeah, I think that's a big unlock and you know I think in maybe we'll see it getting like this isn't like totally like separated from like the existing crypto market which still very very much drives a lot of demand and flows into like the token like that's who we are serving today but like I I think hopefully we get out of like oh bull market on like prices go up prices go down and you're just seeing kind of like continued build and like adoption of products. I guess you have seen that in somewhat with like stable coins like balance outstanding being like relatively consistent. Now I'd like it to be growing more faster than >> let's get it going again.

>> So um like if >> it's just been sideways. >> Well that's true and like if that doesn't grow then that's kind of reflective of like you know if we look back in 5 years and like it's still $300 billion then >> yeah we got a problem. >> We got a real problem. Um but like all the activity that we're seeing is very indicative of like stable coins developing and developing beyond the way they were used in the past which is going to be um a requirement for all this stuff to really take off. >> Do you think stable coins and tokenized funds would end up as competing products or more complimentary to one other? >> They're a compliment. I mean, I'm sure in some ways there's like you there are going to be people who are saying I can stay in a stable coin or I can swap into

a tokenized money market fund for my balance at rest and they're going to choose to swap in the tokenized money market fund in lots of use cases, right? That's what we tried to do with like the regulatory relief that we got. Um, but that said, like they're much more complimentary. That's like our addressable market and like that's going to help pull people in and keep them on stables if they can like do more with stables once they've got it. So I I don't view it I think it's kind of >> a narrow view to view them as like competing like it's much more about growing the ecosystem and growing the pie. Um that's u my take on >> Yeah. And what's your northstar as we kind of come to a a close here for Wisdom Tree when you're thinking about all of your tokenized products this you

know convergence as a whole? What are your metrics that you're that you're really looking to grow? What is your you know what is the northstar for 2030? You look back what is the Wisdom Tree brand? What is the what does that look like? >> Yeah, I mean we try and do right by the investor, right? We're asset manager um kind of like all asset managers judged by how we're growing aum serving more people. So the things that I look at every day are like how's our AM growing and like are we seeing product market fit and adoption by people by users and like some of that's quantitative and some of it's just like anecdotal when you're like in the building phase of like learning like oh this is like a use case I hadn't thought of before where like somebody's like really found that this like solved a problem for them

right um so that's what um we focus on uh and so yeah long term like we want to uh be doing right by investors helping them have a really good investing experience. Y >> broadly defined. So some of that's like definitely after tax returns, but it's also like was this a good convenient secure experience for you and that's like with ETFs like they've won on that basis, right? Where um it's just a better investing experience than what people used to be able to get. >> Yeah. >> Amazing. Well, Will, thank you so much for sitting down with us today. >> Thank you, Andy. My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

>> This has been Convergence episode number one. Um it's a wrap. Thank you. Heat. Heat. We get

we get we get we get deep. Hello. Hello guys. Thank you for being a part of our convergence first episode.

Love you guys. Appreciate you guys spending some time with us today on this amazing big clarity day. I mean, wow. So, I just want to let you guys know, this is Andy speaking here. We just got word from our in-house source here, um that there's there's been very little progress in the last hour. No real positive signs on enough Democrat support for clarity. Um we're going to need a big swing at the last minute um from a large senator to get this through. We're hearing odds of less than 10 15% at this point. The closure vote even gets through. So, that's where we think we're at. Um and we look forward to the tokenization consent for up to 15 on the stage now vote audio up please.

>> Audio should be coming immittently. >> Mr. President, I ask unanimous consent that Kevin Webb, a detail from the Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry >> from the Commodity Futures Trading Commission be granted floor privileges through October 2nd, 2026. >> Without objection, >> Mr. President, in a few minutes, the Senate will vote on one of the most important consequential bipartisans financial services bill in a generation, the Digital Asset Market Clarity Act.

Before we do, my colleagues need to understand exactly what's at stake. I have spent every single day of the past year fighting to get the Clarity Act ready for prime time because Wyoming did not send me to Washington to watch America fall behind. My state sent me here to make sure we lead. Today, this body decides whether we keep that promise or sideline American leadership. Wyoming wrote the blueprint for regulating digital assets in the United States and in many ways the world. In 2017, the Wyoming legislature embarked on a mission to create a firstofits-kind regulatory framework for digital assets

that protects consumers and promotes responsible innovation. The Wyoming legislature was the first legislative body in the United States to draw the line between a security and a commodity. Was the first to safely integrate digital assets into our nation's banking system in a safe and sound way through specialurpose depository institutions. and Wyoming was the first jurisdiction in the nation to create a new legal entity for decentralized unincorporated nonprofit associations.

A Wyoming specialurpose depository institution was also the first depository institution in the history of our banking system to earn a master account from the Federal Reserve. The successful Wyoming blueprint is the foundation of the Digital Asset Market Clarity Act. Today, this is not a partisan bill. Not even close. Democrats secured 126 separate concessions in this text. And they wrote more than half of the 630 pages in front of you. This bill started at 300 pages.

It stands at 635 because I sat across the table from my colleagues for an entire year and took every objection seriously and built those changes into the bill ourselves. That's not capitulation. That's what legislating in good faith looks like. Something this body far too often forgets how to do. Nowhere, absolutely nowhere, have we given more on ethics, more than on ethics in this bill. In July, President Trump voluntarily put himself, the vice president, every judge,

federally elected official, and their spouses under the strictest e ethics restrictions this country has ever seen. Almost no one in Washington would have offered that on their own. But Democrats still wanted more. They wanted independent outside enforcement. >> President Trump went back to the table and he gave more. >> Guys, remember markets do not like reflects substantially all of the Tillis Ggo framework built on top of what was already historic. State attorneys general now have direct authority to enforce these ethics rules against

federal officials themselves. They can go after exchanges and issuers under consumer protection law. So bad actors get hit coming and going. No president has ever gone this far. And this president did it twice. Let's be honest about what a no vote actually is today. It's not a principal stand against the president. >> It's not a vote against a bill that has had a partisan flare.

It's a vote to protect politicians personal crypto holdings from the very limits Democrats demanded and got. It's a vote against the consumer protections American families are counting on. And it's a vote to hand the future of financial innovation to a foreign competitor who will not be foolish enough to waste this chance to lead our global digital economy and onshore this industry and the good paying jobs it creates.

This country put the first man on the moon. We built financial institutions and we built the internet. We do not watch history happen to us. We make history. We should not stop that tradition today. >> That's right. >> 635 pages. >> A full year of daily negotiations daily, even on weekends. 126 Democrat wins written into law. The strongest ethics restrictions any president has ever accepted in writing right here.

>> This is what good faith looks like. >> Uhuh. >> This is market doesn't like it. Mark doesn't like it right now looks like. And in a few minutes does not like this book decide whether or not it meant does not like it >> at all. I have given this fight everything I have from the moment I was sworn in as a US senator and especially over the last year. For so long, this fight has been mine and that of my incredible partner and dear friend, Senator Kirsten Gillibrand and Chairman Scots and Chairman Boseman, Senator Tillis, Senator Marino, and many

of my colleagues. >> Market is not liking her job alongside me in this fight for this industry to bring us to this moment >> today. This fight belongs to the whole body. >> President Trump gave more than anyone in this town expected twice. >> It's time for this body to take yes for an answer. Take the win. Stand with American innovation. Stand with American consumers. Stand with American leadership. Do not let this day be the day we handed our future to someone else because we were too afraid to finish what we started.

>> Let's vote. Yes. Let's not only join the 21st >> Oh, market's bouncing. Market's bouncing. >> Economy. >> Let's not only join the digital age. Let's lead it. Have some fun. What time is that? >> Let's make it work for America and the world. Let's vote yes. Let's get this done. Madame President, I yield back and I ask unanimous consent. >> You put so much work >> to wave the mandatory quorum call with respect to the cloer motion for HR 3633. >> Without objection.

>> Closure motion, baby. >> Uh Madame President, I have three motion, baby. Deep South the session of the Senate. They have the approval of the majority and minority leaders. >> Duly noted. >> The clerk will report the motion to invoke closure. >> Closure moture motion. We the enter senators in accordance with the provisions of rule 22 of the standing rules of the Senate do hereby move to bring to a closed debate on the motion to proceed to calendar number 423 HR 3633.

an act to provide for a system of regulation of the offer and sale of digital commodities and so forth and for other purposes signed by 17 senators. >> Under the previous order, the mandatory quorum call under rule 22 has been waved. The question is, is it the sense of the Senate that the debate on the motion to proceed to HR 3633, an act to provide for a system of regulation of the offer and sale of digital commodities by the Security and Exchange Commission and the Commodity Futures Trading Commission to amend the Federal Reserve Act to prohibit the Federal Reserve banks from offering certain products or services directly to an individual, to prohibit the use of central bank digital currency for monet

Monary policy and for other purposes shall be brought to a close. The yays and nays are mandatory under the rule. The clerk will call the role. >> Miss Albrooks, Mr. Armstrong. >> Still CBDC's. >> All right, we're voting. Here we go. >> Oh, so we're all voting right now. All right, guys. Um, wow. I mean, wow. I mean, >> here they are. >> Wow. >> Here we go, guys. The votes are coming in one by one. It's kind of like in a you know in class in school, right? You like put your your thing in the hat and you pull it up.

>> Cast your vote. >> Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. >> We are seeing the democratic process. >> The Bulls and Bears are fighting live on the chart right now. You got the one minute chart >> there. There was some CBDC conversation there about what was going on, about what the motion is, but I think these things are just named a certain way. But obviously there's so much depth. You saw Lumis present this 635 page book of all of the language in this bill. So they just have to claim one thing as far as the name as I understand it. But the votes are coming in.

They're coming in as we speak. Guys, we are here in the tokenization tower. It is live. We're in New York City. It's a beautiful day in New York. Let me get cam one here. Guys, here's what I really think. If the Clarity Act passes, it doesn't really matter. All in all, doesn't really matter. Like, we're going to gigent no matter what. If we pass this bill right now, this closure bill, we are going to blast. But if not, doesn't really matter, guys. Doesn't really matter. Let's get back to the video here. Um guys, look, I think that we heard from the people that we spoke to in the rumor mill that there is clear >> reason to believe that SEC is working on innovation exemptions no matter what

happens here. >> Mr. Baraso, >> I would hate to see you guys get bearish if this doesn't get through. >> All right. I'd hate to see you guys get buried. >> Mr. Blumenthal. >> Wow. They're just calling them up name by name, huh? I mean, I don't even know if this is going to pass closure, guys. I This chart of Bitcoin might go absolutely crazy right now. >> You can feel it in the air. You can feel in the air. You can feel it. Everyone kind of waiting, thinking about what could come. What's your take? What do you think happens here?

>> I'm pessimistic. I think the odds are stacked against us. Um, you know, we were at a dinner the other day and I said the biggest events of this week are probably some of the biggest events of the year and it's the clarity vote and it's the Fed decision on Wednesday. back-toback days. >> Odds are stacked against us for both. I think it's roughly an 85% chance against us for both of these events. But I'm claiming these are basically a coin flip. >> Mrs. You think it's a coin flip here? >> I think both of these are a coin flip, which odds are that we get one of them and not the other.

>> All right, guys. We're going to rub our crystal ball. >> Mort penguin crystal ball, >> Mr. Cotton. >> And we're going to we're going to pray. >> Mr. Kramer, >> we're going to take a moment here for the future of this industry and our little Pangu mascot. We're going to pray. Dear Pangu, please pass the Clarity Act. >> Amen. All right, guys. Come on. Let's go. Here we go. Votes are coming in. Votes are coming in. I resonate with the pessimism. Look, I think that it's already priced in. >> I think the bigger outcome is tomorrow. Tomorrow's Fed meeting is going to be very huge. It's going to be important.

It's going to be all time. I think we could, if we get neither of these events as a positive outcome, I think we could get a mega dump coming out of these. >> A puke >> just this weekly this week just ends up tapping lows, sweeping like maybe 75, maybe 70, maybe getting into the mid60s, >> but then I think we recover quickly. Yeah, >> I think by the time even if we reach 70k, >> I think by this time next Wednesday or Tuesday, >> y >> we're almost fully recovered to like 75s and plus.

>> So guys, if you're just tuning in now, they are doing the actual vote right now. >> They're calling up senators one by one by one. >> There's 100 senators. They're going alphabetically. >> We heard them. They were on the C's. >> They're on the S's now. So they're coming very >> they're on F. >> Mrs. Fischer. >> Oh, Mr. Feteran. >> Mr. and Mrs. >> Mrs. Gillibrand. >> Ms. Graham. >> Fisher. GGO. We know GGO is a Yes. Yeah. Well, what we heard was that we need some big switches from a couple senators, maybe Mark Warner, a couple others. These large Democrats with large audiences who people they kind of sway a

lot of these votes. Mr. Grassley, >> but we just heard literally 30 minutes or less that unfortunately we're not getting that. You know, we just heard >> unlikely that we get that >> Mr. Heinrich. >> Um, and >> Mr. Hickin Looper, >> we just heard it's >> unfortunately Mr. >> You guys see the Bulls and the Bears going to war in the chart. >> Let's go here on full screen here. Let me give you guys my take here. All right. Oh, w while we await the uh lovely clarity act here, um I gotta say that I want to tell you guys that I don't think it really matters that much. I want to say I I want to say that I don't really think it matters that much.

Um I want to say that I think that it is less relevant than what you guys may think. Like I think that what happens right now is that it's unlikely that it passes. Okay, the markets probably freak out a little bit, but I think markets don't like uncertainty, right? And so in a certain way, no pun intended, we know that the Clarity Act will not pass if it doesn't pass. If it does pass, we also do know and we have the tailwind. So, in a way, guys, I think if I had to place a prediction market bet for a 15minute chart, I'm betting to the upside here no matter what happens because we're going to get a resolution. And I'm telling you guys, one of the strongest forces I've

ever learned in markets is that resolutions are what markets want. They don't want uncertainty. Leo, let's do the feedback. >> Murphy, >> what do you think? >> Mrs. Murray, >> um, >> Mr. Awesome, >> let's not get too zoomed in here, guys. >> Like 15 minute chart. We've got a one minute Bitcoin chart up here. Let's not get too zoomed in. >> I think this thing could, if it doesn't pass, it's going to be a negative reaction coming out of it. I don't know how long. Maybe a matter of minutes, maybe a matter of days, but I don't think it's going to be months.

>> I agree with that. >> You think we just So, wait, what was your take? You think we get to 75? >> Yeah, I think >> Leo, do do us a favor? Turn the sound down on that on that girl, please. Thanks. So, you think we get to 75? >> I think we dump maybe into the 70ish range >> if we don't get it. If we don't get it and it spends maybe a week in that range. >> Yeah. >> And then uh we recover pretty quickly to like 75 80 plus in like by the time October starts.

>> Yeah. I mean guys, I was telling you guys that I think either way we gigascent. Like if we get clarity and we get no Fed rate hike, we really send. If we get clarity and a Fed rate hike, we still send. If we get no clarity and no Fed rate hike, I think we pump. The only outcome where I think we might have a bit of a, you know, a bit of a mishmash is no clarity and Fed rate hike, which to be frank is looking the most probabilistic. So, I think just like be careful. Like, I'm not using crazy leverage right now. I'm not going crazy. Guys, if it's your first time watching this show here on YouTube, do us a favor. Hit the like, smash that subscribe button. It's the easiest way to support our channel. We are live every single day from the Empire State

Building. Monday through Friday, covering the best news, content, education, interviews with investors, entrepreneurs, and more. Smash the like, give us a subscribe. Takes nothing from you. It's free. Easiest way to support the channel. Much love. Mahalo. All right. >> Let's not bury the lead here. Let's uh turn the volume back and see what happens once they count the votes. >> I genuinely hate Elizabeth Warren. Yeah, Scott. Who doesn't? She's a witch. She's a witch, man. Uh, it ain't going to pass. No way. Unfortunately, HP pep have to agree.

Have to agree. Um, Zcash and Zama bullish. Same, brother. Same. >> All right, we're we're reacting positively on the Bitcoin. >> Audio, please. >> Let's get some volume. >> Wow. Market's ripping. Market's ripping. Wow. Wow. We're reacting really strong right now. Can I get a Zen, please? That's not a zen. Market's ripping. Market's ripping. I think that is a total red herring. We don't happen here. >> It's just random, right?

>> And we're looking at a one minute chart. >> I mean, it is. Oh, getting sold off now a little bit, but it's still going. It's still going. Maybe somebody knows something. I'm telling you guys, the resolution here is what matters. Is what matters. I'm telling you. telling you. >> Do we do we not have any audio? >> No, we're good. We're good. Are they still calling names? >> Yeah, we're good. We're good. Rob, market's bouncing. It's kind of selling off.

>> All right, it's kind of slowing down. Rob, what do you think's gonna happen here? >> What do you think's gonna happen? >> Mr. Warner. Mr. Warner, >> we're in the W's. Miss >> Elizabeth Warren. >> Wicker. Mr. Widen. Mr. >> Dude, somebody get Elizabeth Warren out of there. Get her I think out of there. >> I think Young is one of the last names they're going to announce. >> All the passion in my heart. Get her out of there. Give me the Apple TV controller. Please get her out of there. >> Get Elizabeth Warren out of there. She needs to go. She needs to go.

Wow. Market's dumping. Market's dumping. We're just sideways. We're just sideways shop. We're just sideways shop. We're just sideways shop. Just sideways shop. Just sideways shop. Rob, what do you think? We're just I mean, dude, we are minutes away here from from the vote now. Minutes away. I think they're going to announce it any minute. Yeah. Any minute.

Any minute. Here we go. >> Robbie, you're take on what the market does immediately after. Go. I think we dumped no matter what and then I think we are going to react pretty positively uh in a matter of days to weeks but it's impossible to know how this is going to go. I mean pessimistic I think the rest of September could go pretty negatively. Like I said I think we could sweep low 70s maybe mid to high 60s.

>> Mid to high 60s. >> Yeah. >> Wow. That's not what we wanted to hear. Bulls, I think we gigasend. If that's the puke, if that's the puke, then that's fine. If that's the puke, then that's fine. If we're going to mid to high 60s, I'm cool with that. Whatever. But I think I don't even know if we get there, guys. Market's going sideways. Let's bring the screen back up. This is This is insane. I mean, look at this. This is the de the democratic system in action, Rob, in real time. >> Yeah. >> Would you ever want to be a part of that? Like in the White House or a politician or anything like that? Like, do you have any ambition to run for president?

Do I have any ambition to run for president? >> Yes. Have you ever thought about that? >> I think once uh the government is ran by AI, Andy just threw a pack of Zins at our producer. >> I think once the government is ran by AI agents, I would love to throw my AI agent into the ring. >> Yeah. Interesting. Guys, we are moments away from the Clarity Act vote. We are moments away. Moments away. Wow. Mark's jumping now.

Is there any audio that that we should pull? Are we still waiting, guys? We're still waiting. >> Let's go and pull it up. Let's go ahead and pull it up. Just ju just so we All right, >> they made their way through all of the names. >> No, audio is still maxed out. There's They're now counting the votes. They are now counting the votes, ladies and gentlemen. Insane. Insane. Counting. Counting the votes. Here we go. Here we go. >> In the affirmative. Armstrong, Baraso, Britt Bud Capito Cotton Kramer Cruz, >> Ted Cruz, >> Danes, Ernst, Fiser, Graham, Hovind, Houston Hyde Smith Johnson Kennedy

Langford Lee Lmus Marshall McCormack Marcowski Rickettts Rich Rounds, Schmidt, Scott of Florida, Scott of South Carolina, Ina Sullivan Thoon Tillis Wicker and Young Mr. Shehy Mr. Shehy I senators voting in the negative Baldwin Bennett Blumenthal Blunt Rochester Collins Cortez Masto Durban Federman Hassan Hinrich Hickinlooper Perono Kain Kelly Kim King Marky Murphy Murray >> go full stream on the uh TV please.

Reed Rosen Shots Schiff Slotkin Smith, Ben Holland, Warner, Waro, Warren, Welch, White House, and >> everybody. >> Mr. Tubberville, Mr. Tubberville. I >> Mr. Boseman, Mr. Boseman. I >> unofficial tally 38 to 34. Can we turn the headlines off? The Yay are in the lead with a minute

and 45 left. >> Mr. Mkeley. Mr. Mkeley. >> Holy crap. No. >> Leo, pull us up. Leo, pull us up. >> Oh my gosh. A minute and 36 seconds. 38 to 35. Wow. This is just for the closure, right? >> Just for the closure. Remember, there's 100 senators. There's a minute and a half left. Yay. Are in the lead by three votes. >> Wow. Three, guys. A minute and 22 seconds away. Wow.

Wow. 3835. A minute and 7 seconds. Market is all over the place. Doesn't know how to react. Wow. One minute left. One minute left. Elizabeth Warren peeking over the shoulder of those counting the votes. Elizabeth Warren is a witch and deserves to be taken out of all politicians roles. She's a witch. Get her out of there. Market doesn't like it. Market does not like it so far. Chopping. Shopping. Shopping. >> 39 seconds.

>> 39 seconds. Wait, don't they need 60 votes though? >> They need 60 votes for closure. It's cooked. >> It's over. GG's, boys. >> Oh, they do. Good try. >> They need 60 votes. >> This is Shaheen. This is Shaheen. No, >> not going to happen, lads. They need 60. >> Need 60, boys. GG. It was a good It was a good attempt. 22 votes shy. Wow. GG, boys. Over. Allan. Adam. Yeah, it's cooked, boys. We're done.

>> Market is nuking, but not too hard. Let's see if we get a nuke on the final drop. And just like that, we Oh, market is nuking hard. I might have to extend this chart. Oh, boy. >> Oh, boy. I might have to pull this chart a little bit. Yikes. >> Not what you wanted to see there, boys. Did you? >> 39 to 36 in favor. Couldn't reach the 60 vote mark. Market got the resolution it was looking for. This is what we think matters. Notice how the market's not dumping too hard. This was priced in.

Miss Clolobachar. Miss Clolobachar. No. >> Wow. Well, we got the unofficial tally. Sub 50K, dude. No way. Market not dumping too hard, so it must be priced in rand. Yeah, it is priced in. We're good. Look at that wick. Clock don't matter. We're good, boys. We're good. I think I think BTC does fine without clarity. Look, I've been saying the same thing. I think we gig a send no matter what. Like, it's not that big of a deal, guys. It's really not that big of a deal. It's really not that big of a deal at all. I really just don't I'm not

pressed about clarity. I I'm just not pressed about clarity at all. >> Mr. Hagerty. Mr. Hagerty. I >> just not just not pressed. >> Votes are still rolling in. >> Yeah, they are. But we're not going to get it. We're not going to get it. You guys see up there just above the headline, you got 40 to 37. Now we're not getting to 60. I mean, we It would have to be It would have to be so many abstaining. >> Yeah. is also broken. >> I mean, it's just it's a tough one, you know. So, >> it's a tough one. All right, Leo, let's go ahead and go full screen here, please.

>> Keep the audio on, please. Full screen on the vote, please. >> Wow. Buying all Yep. Agreed. >> Franchesco, Gigas, no matter what. Good to see you here, lad. >> Good to see you, my guy. >> Canwell. No, >> I'm long. I'm not selling. I'm not selling. We're good, guys. Tomorrow is what matters. The FOMC tomorrow is what matters, guys. The FOMC tomorrow is what matters.

The FOMC is what matters, guys. Do you agree Rob? >> Yes. >> So, what what's your take? It's 4040 now and it's cooked. Dude, don't tell me Elizabeth Warren is not a witch. She's a witch. That's just crazy talk. I'll block you from the chat, man. Please. Please. Let's just be all reasonable. All right. >> She hates crypto. She needs to go. She's terrible. >> She has no idea what she's talking about. She needs to go. She's done. She's done.

Elizabeth Warren's done. Not don't want to hear her name again on the show ever again. Never want to hear her name again. She's done. Get long. I'm long, man. I'm long, dude. Why are we being bearish in the chat? Why are we bearish, man? Bought more Bitcoin and Zcash. There you go, KF. Same. Dude, I am smashing the bid on Bitcoin and Zcash non-stop. Leo, just go ahead and pull the chart up of the Bitcoin chart, please. Just the chart on the screen. Thank you so much.

Yeah, Elizabeth Warren's done, man. She's Look at her peeking her head over the shoulder. >> Dude, she's such a witch, man. Look at her. Sit down, you old fart, man. Go home, lady. Go home. It's time for her to be done. She's done. Her and Hunter. Two two P's in a pod there. Those two. Americans behaving like the price of Bitcoin is determined only by some domestic legislation or other. And calling a senator a witch is pure. All right, Rosenfine. Much love, man. See you out of the chat. All good, man. No worries. You don't have to come back to the show. It's all good. I know you don't If you don't like her, you don't have to like her. See you later.

No worries. 19 senators left and 19 yes required. >> Wow. I mean, we need a full a full title. Like a full >> That's right. If there's one more no, then it's done. >> Mr. Cassidy, >> why is everybody bearish? >> Bro, am I just going to lose all my money right now? Like, I'm just comfy in spot. Leo, pull us up on the screen. We got two more minutes here. Pull us up on the screen. This is just I mean every single senator left to vote yes.

>> Dude, this is just insane. Dems bought off by the banks. I agree, man. >> Oh, Mr. Sanders was the last vote. >> Bernie Sanders ended it. >> Oh, wow. Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren and Elizabeth Warren. Keys in a pod right there, ladies and gentlemen. This is This is just I mean, what more can you expect? >> That's it. Absolute nonsense. That >> Bernie Sanders is of innovation. The enemy of pro progress. >> Shuts down the AI data center shut down the crypto market structure bill.

That's it. There's only 100 senators. They needed 60 to 40 and they shut it down. That's it. It's done. Yeah, Bernie Sanders, huh? This guy. Bernie was the vote going. Huh? >> How about this, boys? Breaking Bernie Sanders. Last vote against Clarity is the nail in the coffin. Someone needs a Never mind. Bernie mode. Bye-bye.

Terrible, man. Absolutely terrible. Marcus's not loving it. Market's just not loving it. I mean, it is. It makes sense. I mean, it's clarity. Like, we needed this to go through. GG's, guys. GG's >> corn. >> Do not sell, guys. Why are you being so bearish? >> Yeah, dude. Between Bernie and Elizabeth Warren, if they had it their way, we'd still be in a stone age. Those guys, >> Bernie Cinema. >> Yo. Yo, Rocky Rock. That's a good one. That's a good one, man. That's a good one man.

Oh my lordy goodness. Bernie. >> Mrs. Moody. Mrs. Moody. >> Wow. And then they're just rolling. >> All right, Leo. Back to full screen with the chart on, please. Much love. >> Thank you so much. >> There. Keep the audio on, guys. >> Bernie was the one. >> Bernie ended it for us. >> Bernie put us over the edge. >> No. Mr. Luhan. Mr. Luhan. No.

Mr. Padilla. Mr. Padilla. No. >> Mr. Schumer. Mr. Schumer. No. Mr. Holly. Mr. Holly. No, >> Mr. Paul. Mr. Paul I Mr. Moran

>> Mr. Moran. >> No. >> Mr. Justice. Mr. Justice. I Mrs. Blackburn. This Mrs. Blackburn. I

Miss Duckworth. Miss Duckworth. No. No clarity. >> Yeah, it was Bernie Sanders. >> Bernie Sanders was the nail in the coffin. >> He was the 41st no vote. And of course, we needed 60 votes. So, you guys just saw we're at 49 to 49. I mean, it's encouraging. Maybe we have half the people that support this, half the people that don't, but the reality is that we needed 60 to progress this into a place where we could ultimately talk

about it. Well, I'm not going to get upset because we've got a special guest here live in the tokenization tower. We've got Vladimir Novakovski, the CEO of Lighter. Vlad, welcome to the show. Great to have you back. Thank you for for making the trek up here. >> Yeah. Yeah. Just uh coming by on a slow news day, right? >> So, what is your what is your immediate reaction? You know, we didn't get the votes that we needed to progress clarity. Uh but we're still in industry. We're going to continue to move forward. How do you think we should do this? What's your initial reaction here? Yeah, you know, I was in DC three weeks ago for the innovation advisory committee of the CFTC. You know, spend a little bit of time other meetings there. I mean, I think kind of going into this, it was

you know, apparent that this bill, there are a lot of different things in there, a lot of different constituencies. So, it was going to be um, you know, it was going to be close. So, you know, I think that the industry is well prepared for this outcome where a lot of the really important things in the bill will be kind of considered on a more case by case basis either through other legislation or you know really like the CFTC and the SEC can do a lot of rule making from here and we've seen you know CFTC already got started a lot of that I think like last week there was um cooperation between the two of them when it comes to uh single name equity per so I think that there's you know we have um

some very innovative regulators now and I think you know it it's it's hard to get you know bill it's almost like the big beautiful bill for crypto right there's a lot of different things in there a lot of constituencies pushing back different aspects so >> it was going to be close but I think the industry moves on from here >> now now given what you're saying about the CFTC and the SEC still continuing to move forward and and do rulemaking How big of a deal do you think clarity is? Do you do you think this was a nothing burger all along? I mean, like you said, the industry was prepared for this outcome of clarity not moving forward. The way that we say that relative to the market is like it's priced in that this wasn't going to happen.

>> Now that we have this, it's settled. It's not going to happen. How big of a do you think it's a big deal or not so much? Well, I I think that it could have been a bigger deal if we were at a point where, you know, regulators were not very innovation focused, right? And, you know, if if our only path forward was through legislation, then this would have been a bigger hit, right? I mean, I think now what this means is that things will take certain certain things will take a bit longer. Certain things are on track as they are, right? Like when it comes to PERS, for example, right? Like PERPS are already live in the US with Khi and now we're working hard with CFTC to bring lighter purp and so things like that are as on track as they ever were

now with like how to think about you know spot assets and you know I think Robin Hood is doing a lot of innovation there so other some of those processes may take a little longer there may be some like peace meal legislation that's needed but you know I think what we've shown like the what the industry has shown is that there there's a lot of um positive momentum and like I think like a lot of the key stakeholders in DC understand this stuff now. I think that's one of the things that I've been most impressed with right during the DC visits is like and even the folks from Trafi get it too. So, you know, so I think it's not like when when a lot of these processes started a year

and a half ago, like I think the industry was in a much different place than it is today, right? I think now it's much more um tangible like what are the specific things that are going to move the needle and >> we'll achieve those one way or another. >> Yeah, man. I I mean I just I just totally agree and I feel like there was such a there was such a nuanced approach to the regulation that we understood at least that was happening behind the scenes and clarity just felt like this very widespread almost like too broad of a possibility like it was just like everything in one and it didn't feel like it had enough depth but what we have heard through the rumor mill if you will is that tokenization exemptions are coming from the SEC imminently following

the you know likelihood of the failure of clarity passing which we can now confirm and I think CFTC is actively working on perpetual futures regulation as well. You are obviously on the CFDC innovation advisory committee. You're in the know here. What do you want to see from the CFDC? Right? If you had your wish list for what is what would make lighter um you know what's the best outcome for purpose as a whole and for lighter? What do you want from the CFTC? >> You know, I I think that um the CFTC um you know, looking at kind of the the rule book, right? And um core principles and starting to adapt those to the way

that onchain finance already operates, right? And kind of best practices from there. You know, for example, um you know, when it comes to markets, right? like starting with I think it's a good decision to start with the crypton native markets and then adding others over time you know like starting with fairly low leverage and then increasing that over time like what you don't want to do is um introduce a lot of risk into the system prematurely and then have you know something blow up and then that hurts consumers and uh you know that kind of creates a negative perception of what onchain finance is instead you want to kind of do it I mean um at a at a

healthy pace but kind of roll out different products different levels of risk over time and so I think from from our perspective right like kind of rules that are that are fair that um kind of codify a lot of the best practices of the industry already things like open source right things like verifiability I think those those things we've been kind of building uh with that in mind from the beginning uh I think others There's some of our partners like I think at the CFTC um meeting I was in you know Vlad Tennv also spoke about verifiability right I think you know so did Brian Armstrong like I think a lot of the industry leaders understand this stuff and there was a lot of kind of even even some of the trafi players there was a

lot of a lot of um you know common perspective in that meeting and so you know there were a little bit of fireworks at the end there but overall I think um you know at least when it comes to like derivatives and onchain and um per I think that's kind of moving forward and uh we have CFTC that's operating very much like a startup. >> Yeah, which is great to see. I I can't help it. We got so many questions coming in. Somebody wants to know when options are going to be coming in. Vlad, give us a bit of a sense of the road map here for Lighter with with regards to options and then maybe tie in some of how you're anticipating, you know, potential regulation, what that can help you, you know, to to kind of plan for and achieve

>> and and and with respect to all of these features with clarity now off the table, are you you mentioned everything's sort of on track, but is it moving any faster or slower with regards to any of these product offerings now that clarity is off the table? >> I I mean I I think that it's moving for for most of the products that we're focused on, it's moving at the same pace. I mean I think there you know for for some um you know spot products things may take longer. Um, I also think there are probably some things that may move faster because, you know like you know, I think folks were like

waiting to see how clarity shakes out before starting to move for some of these things, especially like some of the bigger players in the space that um, you know, are a bit more cautious. Like I think they were actually waiting for a decision one way or another. So, I think we might see actually like more activity. M >> um but yeah, I mean I think with options, we're actually going to roll out um something pretty exciting on that in the next week. So stay tuned. Um and then as we head into Q4, that's going to be kind of the main push. But but there will be some new products that, you know, I think the market will will be interested in in coming in the next week.

>> I love the little tease from Vlad. The little tease from Vlad. But what is what is the what has been the biggest kind of surprise or breakthrough from the lighter uh stats side of things? Right? I saw all-time high in revenue as of late on a couple of these big trading days. I saw volumes, you know, obviously the token is doing extremely well. What has been some of the biggest breakthroughs internally? When you think about your north stars, right, for your metrics of success, what have been those and kind of what have been some of the recent breakthroughs? >> Yeah. Well, I think I was here when we uh kind of first talked about the Robin Hood launch, right? And um you know, that's gone really well. I think the metrics there uh like something like a third of the revenue is now coming from

the Robin Hood instance, which is uh you know, only you know, two months in. That's >> that's a pretty exciting stat. >> Oneird. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, >> wow. you know, um, and I think what's also interesting about that one, it's not just like a clone of lighter core, like the markets that are more active there, you you're seeing kind of I think what you would expect from from Robin Hood, right? But you're seeing like more of of equity pers like preipo like I think one other interesting side for the um those preipo per there's actually more activity on the Robin Hood instance than the core. Um so so they're they're um I think we're seeing like open

interest trend up. we're seeing um you know overall volumes and revenue trend up but but really like I think there's still a lot of really big opportunities ahead of us this year that both kind of on the US side but also on in terms of options um and other partnerships that we're going to announce you know in the you know as we close out the year here. More teasing from Vlad. More teasing from Vlad here today. >> Vlad, you know, given that you were there at the CFTC Innovation Advisory Committee and now that we don't have clarity, I I think that is sort of the heart at which we will start to see more regulatory innovation, for lack of a

better term. You also mentioned there were some fireworks. Maybe you can just take us inside the CFTC innovation advisory committee >> that one day specifically. >> Yeah. What were the fireworks? What was it like that day? Was there mostly agreement, mostly disagreement? Yeah. Take us take us inside the room. >> Well, so the um um session was split into three parts, right? So the first one was crypto, second one was AI and then the third one was prediction markets, right? So the crypto part is where there was actually a lot more agreement than >> I would have expected. um you know like we talked about some of these best practices around um you know security around risk right around verifiability I

think you know per was definitely a topic that came up but it wasn't particularly controversial um I think that you know the AI part was also a very interesting discussion like agentic trading um you know how do you think about systemic risk in that context and then and so that was all kind of very um you know I I think focused on on on the the substance of the issues and then only at the very end of the prediction markets discussion there was you know there's some back and forth that uh I think um you know was you know being in that room there we were we were just kind of happy to stay out of the the crossfire there just sitting back and watching that's always the case there man with those two with

those two >> yeah but I think there there were some interesting points made by >> like you know, like certainly I think in general we probably agree more with some of the um you know, newer companies in the room there. But I think there were there were some good points made by the Tradfi folks too like for example that um you know probably the process for listing like a compute per should be easier than the process for listing like um you know the George Santos like prediction market. So like you know that that's that's actually probably you know so so I think there are some good points made there as well and um and I think you know I think that it's it's a healthy discussion to have.

>> Yeah. One of the things because you were in that room I think is you you know your unique vantage point to speak on something like this when you obviously you know it's kind of apples to oranges you know a compute per versus a George Santos prediction market. But let's say we are comparing apples to apples. Let's take a compute per and a compute prediction market, >> right? >> How much do you think the regulatory authorities at B should focus on the modality whether it's a per or a prediction market versus the underlying asset or inflection in the market? >> Yeah. Well, I guess the difference is leverage, right? I mean, I think regulating per is a bit more challenging because of of that leverage question.

It's like how do you >> how does ADL work? >> Yeah. um you know how and I mean I think there we certainly have I think some um really clear approaches to ADL that are verifiable and you know we we've kind of made that case um and but but it is it is a harder problem for the CFTC to think about that versus a market that's binary right now I think for those markets those prediction markets the the hard part isn't necessarily like >> the you you know, like difficult, you know, quant risk questions. It's more like who has the, you know, like insider information, you know, who like and we're we're glad kind of not to be

>> in in that business, right? Because though that's that's not >> like those are some pretty >> tough things to make decisions on, right? Yeah. And and >> like and regulate. So, so but I think when it comes to modalities, um, right, I think there if you're just talking about like compute and it's a market of like trading compute per versus, um, binary option on compute versus like some kind of like tokenized compute asset, which by the way, now a bunch of folks are doing stuff like that on on lighter, right? Like tokenizing per positions and >> uh letting you trade those outside of lighter. Y >> but anyway like I think >> yeah from from like I think from the

point of view of a trader who just wants exposure in the market they may kind of accomplish the same thing from the point of view of how you regulate them >> it's a bit different because like the worst case scenario >> that you have to think about looks different and and also I think the trfy >> institutions um are you know who are ultimately going to be providing a lot of the liquidity here like the way they're set is very much um like I think some of these markets um make a lot more sense for them in some modalities than others.

>> Yeah. Right. >> Yeah. No, I totally agree. I mean I think that you know we we're seeing the explosion of per as a concept in the mainstream especially with the financial mainstream audience and that's happening rapidly. Um and you know you guys have been kind of pursuing this CFTC regulated path if you will. Those are my words, those aren't your words, right? And so, you know, to me from let's just put my investor hat on. You know, this I think about this as a operational advantage. You know, it's an operational advantage advantage to have a Delaware CC Corp to be have a US-based team.

We're now entering this era of kind of like onshoring a lot of this industry given that the clarity act has kind of not you know has not passed and we're now going to be entering more of this rule making from individual agency era which I think is there's a lot of advantages for for specific nuance rulem however the problem is that it's not as sticky as clarity would have been in terms of its irreversibility versus the rulem that comes from CFTC can be essentially turned around with that aside. side. How do you think about lighter's unique position in the market in the US given that all the purpose platforms are trying to come to the US?

What is unique about your position that you you feel gives you a competitive advantage? >> Sure. Well, I think you mentioned one of those things which is like we've been a US builder from day one. You know, we never left. who always believed in uh you know like the capital of the traditional financial system should be the capital of the onchain financial system and so that that certainly gives us an advantage kind of philosophically and just like proximity and all of that right I but I think you know two other things I would say is um you know building in a way that's secure and verifiable >> um you know that's there's more to regulation than that but I

those approaches like help you with a lot of the core principles that you need to comply with. Um and um and I think the the third thing is like being easy to integrate with other platforms like a Robin Hood. >> Yeah. >> Allows us for additional paths for um you know lighter products to be in the US in addition to >> Okay. Okay. Vlad, you're teasing us too much here. You're teasing us too much here. There's got to be more brokerages coming. There's got to be more frontends coming. You probably can't say it, but sounds like Robin Hood was the first and there's potentially more coming.

>> Well, and and there's more in the Robin Hood stack as well, right? >> Explain. >> Meaning like the initial integration with the wallet is already off to a great start like I mentioned, but there's kind of there's more real estate there too. And and do you need any do you need any CFTC like clearance or anything to overcome in order to ultimately implement those and and accomplish those feats? Yeah, I mean I think from certainly from our perspective going in through you know the front door right actually working through these questions with the agency is much better than >> I think saying like oh this is you know this is just code. So you know I I think

like some things are like like you know if you're running like unis swap on top of ethereum you could say well that is just code but like if you're operating exchange with rules around leverage around ADL on all these things like around like you have to look at insider trading like like there needs to be certainly rules and compliance around that but a lot of the requirements that are taken care of by blockchain that should also be recognized right so I think it's not like it's not a black and white thing like, okay, this is >> DeFi, so we can just plug it in. On the other hand, that doesn't mean >> that every single rule has to be addressed the same way as it would have been 60 years ago, >> right? And the thing is, right, you've got this ZKverified order book on this,

you know, Ethereum L2. I'm not sure the CFTC is prepared to regulate and understand what that really encompasses and means. Can you maybe just like walk us through this kind of verifiable stance that you guys are taking and then how maybe the regulatory conditions could almost mold themselves around this new kind of blockchain primitive. >> Yeah. So I I think um there are two parts to that right one building on top of Ethereum. So that gives you a level of security that um you know like Ethereum is has been um

part of the you know the onchain financial system for over a decade. Yeah. >> Has been robust and stable. So you can almost think of it as like the internet at this point. Right. So um you know so for example right like there are certain rules around like disaster recovery right? Well, building on top of Ethereum helps a lot with that because even the you know like like Ethereum going out is is like you can think of it as like you know like the internet going down or like power you know electricity not working you know so there so it's like you know you can think of it that way but like if any if in any scenario outside of that you can always get your assets back through Ethereum if you're using lighter so that's like an important thing that is very clear I

think to kind of folks in DC right kind of no matter what happens you can get your assets back through Ethereum. Now the verifiability piece of it means that you know anything that happens there's a proof that it happened fairly right and so that's kind of a very um important guarantee to make to consumers and so yeah so I mean I think these things like the the um the actual math of how it works is also important it's not you know like I think what's even more important is like what it achieves for the consumer, what it achieves for the regulator, right? Like how it helps with um the kind of the overall structure of the

system. And do you think the CFTC may be more equipped at understanding those outcomes more so than the politicians in Congress or the Senate? It just seems like the CFTC and the SEC has been more open to feedback and implementing that into their rule making whereas maybe these legislators have uh some alternative biases or affiliations, >> right? I mean, I wouldn't paint it with as broad of a brush as that. I mean, we we've met people on the hill who actually have a pretty deep understanding of some of these concepts.

I think the you know, I think you mentioned this earlier, right? I think with clarity there's so much in there that you know there's not necessarily going to be even the most talented you know politician isn't going to be deep expert in like everything that was in that bill. >> Yeah. And so I think it was more of a function of that as opposed to like I think when it comes to some of those individual parts as it relates to um you know things like you know KYC or or leverage or um you know developer protections like all these things like I think there certainly individually those were understood at a deep level by some sub subset of

folks but but like I don't know if there's anyone who had like even us included, right? We like knew everything that was in there at a very deep level. >> Right. Right. >> Vlad, you're you're a busy guy and we appreciate you coming in. Uh I think we're gonna we're going to have to get pulled away, but I mean just close us out. You know, you mentioned several things on the Robin Hood front. More in the stack. Aside from Robin Hood, lots is coming down the pipeline out of the CFTC and lighter. talk to us about what's ahead for the next six months into the end of the year and just yeah generally closing us out.

>> Yeah. So to sum up, you know, options like we're going to do some uh roll out of different products around that. Um and and by the way, like for compute, right, like we've heard a lot of demand when we talk to people in the on the AI side is that that's actually an area where data futures might be a better product than right, for compute specifically because that's how like the big data center companies and others would hedge their risk. But anyway, so there's stuff like that. Um there's, you know, additional work we're doing with Robin Hood, other partnerships, some that might look similar to others we've done, others that might be completely different. And uh and yeah, just pushing ahead with with CFTC. You know, they

they've been great to work with. >> You're the man. Thank you so much for your time, Vlad. Um have a great rest of your, you know, week here in New York. I I know these are very busy. I don't even know if it's a day or week or whatever it is. Thank you for your work. Um congrats on the recent success. Just want you to know this is just the beginning. Pers are still less than 1% of the global derivatives volumes. Your job is not finished. Kobe Bryant, you're up 20. Job's not finished, Vlad. >> That's right. That's right. Thanks so much guys. >> Absolutely. All right, guys. We'll be right back with a Marcus charts finishing up the show. Oh, yeah.

>> 10 second, 30 second break. Don't go anywhere. See you guys in just a sec. Heat. Heat. We get deep. We get deep. We know we get

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trading? What are people investing in? How much do people actually budget? We're going to have people from all over, all different investment classes, people who are dead broke, people who are dead whales, people who are just loaded. There won't be a mayor or politician to stop us on the streets. We're going to go everywhere. All five burrows. We're taking over the 212. Heat. Heat.

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get deep. We get deep. We get deep, you know. We get deep. We get deep. We get deep. You know we can see. All right guys, so as you know clarity act did not go through. Um where do we go from here? I think is the most pertinent question.

Um, and so if you're looking at what the broader reaction to this is now, if you've been watching the rollup, you know that we have been claiming that this is a rather insignificant event as it relates to the market. If you're looking at Bitcoin, you saw that we were kind of hovering around the 77,000 mark. We were down the lows maybe around the 75,000 mark and now we're bounced back up to 76. And so in terms of volatility with prices, this is a rather insignificant event. Sure, there was a range of about a2 to,000 or so dollar move, but we've actually closed the gap and it's been about a $1,000 move. I mean, to the tune of, you know, maybe a

percent. And so this is rather insignificant as relates to market prices. I don't want to squander or diminish the significance as it relates to the regulation of the industry at large. There are some projects and applications and onchain businesses that would have loved to see this go through. Uh there's a number of people that were I mean they spent so much time and energy. You saw Cynthia Lumis uh in the Senate uh you know just she was working on this thing day after day for years trying to get this through. She held up the 635 pages that made up this act and unfortunately her work fell by the wayside. other people worked tooth and nail to try to defeat this and not let

it go through. Be it Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders. Obviously, it's uh a bit daunting or uh ridiculous in some sense to think that uh you know, you're going to spend so much time and effort trying to squash innovation. Um ideally, we would have liked to have seen this go through. Uh that would have surprised us to the upside in the markets, but nevertheless, this thing was already priced in. it probably wasn't going to happen. And that's the result that we ultimately came to. Now, where do we go from here? We actually just got word from our in-house uh legal and regulatory correspondent that there might be something as a result of this not going

through. Maybe there's some bipartisan agreement that could have been struck or still would be struck that still now feels a long way away now that this did not go through. And so what am I watching? I'm watching primarily the FOMC decision tomorrow if I'm an investor. And then if I'm a builder, I am now looking to to the SEC and the CFTC to enact their rulemaking powers. Now, historically, those rulemaking powers have been somewhat weak. They have gotten litigated and sued by different states and attorney generals, different department of justices throughout the years when the SEC and the CFTC put forth their own guidance and rules without the Senate or the congressional approval. They are

prepared for clarity not to go through now that it hasn't gone through. This SEC and the CFTC have been preparing for this moment. We've talked at length about different tokenization exemptions that could happen. We've seen that on both the fundraising and the 24/7 markets as well as the different progressive decentralization powers that blockchains and applications could do in order to circumvent some existing rulemaking by the SEC. The CFTC, as you guys just heard from Vlad from Lighter, they've been working very hard to bring perpetuals into the United States and to bring prediction markets into the United States and to do this with AI as well.

And so the CFTC is not slowing down. If anything, they have now sped up as a result of this legislation not moving forward. And so where do we go from here? I think I'm watching a couple of things. I'm watching the things that come out of the CFTC and the SEC. Most primarily if I'm working at one of these onchain businesses and I'm thinking how I should navigate the market structure, how I should be thinking about a United States launch and how I should be thinking about the geo the the geographical market structure as it relates to my product offering. I'm most watching the SEC and the CFTC and more prominently I'm looking to engage the SEC and the CFTC now that this is not going through.

They are the primary regulatory authorities in the room deciding what's legal and what's not legal. Sure, maybe the rules that they come up with will be litigated down the road, but ultimately they are the captain now as it pertains to regulation uh for digital assets. So that's how I'm thinking about this from an onchain business perspective, from a markets and an investor's perspective, all eyes on the FOMC decision. Now I think the FOMC decision is priced very similarly to the way that the Clarity Act was priced. Uh the odds are 85% for a rate hike that is the you know less favorable outcome for digital asset

holders and very similar odds were against the Clarity Act passing around 85% that it wasn't going to pass. Again the unfavorable outcome. So if the market reaction to Clarity Act not going through today because it was priced so similar, I think that that could be an indication of the way that the market could react to an FOMC hike tomorrow, which again an immediate negative reaction, but not anything too substantial to the tune of maybe a couple thousand on Bitcoin. I do think an FOMC decision to the tune of a rate hike 25 basis points could have a more

material outcome or reaction on the Bitcoin price and the markets generally I think it could push ups to you know all right look we were we were basically teetering around the 77k mark on Bitcoin ahead of this Clarity Act vote uh Clarity Act failing in the Senate took us to about 75K. I do think the FOMC decision to hike rates could be a more material outcome and that could lead us to about 70 I I mean it took us to 75 on this Clarity Act. I think the FOMC decision to hike rates could take us to about 70K or lower but I don't think we make new lows.

>> No, I mean look at the market reaction now. I mean like I can pull up on my screen Leo here. You've still got it there. I mean we're at 76K. >> I mean that's where we started when this whole thing happened, right? We literally started at this rate right and we're still here >> right earlier today I think we were teetering around 77 when this thing initially didn't go through we got to about 75 now we're back up to 76 this is cho this is just normal market girrations like I said I I do think the FOMC decision is more significant >> I agree also I could see >> but what you're saying is right in the sense that in the same way that clarity act not passing was priced in >> yeah the same reality is already priced in with the FOMC meeting, guys. Like

it's an 85 to 15% chance. >> I think it is truly apples to apples. >> Again, again, what does the market not like? >> What What do markets hate? >> It's uncertainty. >> What do markets love? Resolutions. What are we going to get tomorrow? A resolution. >> I I put out a sentiment. I tweeted it, but I I think the mindset here is sell the rumor, buy the news. If I don't hike tomorrow, we fly >> because it's a surprise resolution. >> We dump a little bit, but we end up with really similar market conditions and market reaction to what we saw today.

>> I think we dump a little bit and then we like >> I think we could see I think we could see a flush down to like 65, but I think there is a swift recovery back to 70. >> That is what we're looking for, guys. We need to see any dip to low 70s. 60s I think is almost off the table but always see mid to high 60s. >> We need that bought up in a matter of hours. >> I could see it >> to to a day to multiple days to back to mid70 levels. >> That means that we're in a good spot. >> And I think if that dump comes and we don't get a really strong reaction, we're in for multiple weeks of basing out and a potential of testing the lower levels again.

>> I don't think we worried about the low 60s or the mid60s even. I don't even think we get to the 60s, guys. I don't even think we give the chance. I think bears are sidelined. I think the industry is sidelined, Rob. And I don't think this market is going to give them a chance to get BTC, the asset of the century, at the price that they missed it at. >> You know what? I think they will get the chance, but I think the true bears are not going to take that opportunity. I think they're going to be calling for new lows. They're going to say, "We're still in September. This is the last flush, the last dump to new lows in in October that we've been waiting for, and then we're going to buy in the first week of October." And I think that bit

that dip is going to get bought up much quicker than people expect. And I so I do think it gets a little bit deep. I think we get into the 60s again if they hike rates. I that's if they hike rates, but I think they will hike rates. >> Um and I think we do get into the 60s if they do. But I think we recover quite quickly. Now, one of the reasons that I think this this this quick market recovery is because for so long you guys saw that we like we had negative news and there was no reaction.

>> Yeah. At all. Well, first it was negative news dump, negative news, dump, negative news dump. That took us all the way to about July. July onwards was negative news hive. Let me just let me just kind of synthesize what you're saying which is that in that negative news market goes down. I would call that a rational market paradigm because you have something that negative that happens and the market reacts negatively to the downside. Then you had what I would call irrational apathy because you ended up with negative news but no reaction which meant that the market was not rational or reacting as it should have been according to what kind of impact and news was out

>> and it did so with very little volatility and I just think broadly it is important to recognize that sometimes you have not irrational apathy but you have irrational market movement. Sometimes what I think happens is that there's negative headlines but then you end up going up anyway and that's because there is sheer momentum. >> Well, now we're just in like >> the new paradigm that we're re-entering is one that is more rational and I think is actually a more sustainable market landscape than one that's irrational. >> And so I think we're going to get back into a paradigm where >> news has an impact as it should. I think that is a healthier market. Yeah. And I think that is again that's correlated to

what Kevin Worst has been trying to do with the lack of forward guidance. He's been trying to get back to a place where these announcements and these Fed meetings have a material impact on the markets because there is not forward guidance to price these things in beforehand. And so I think we're going to get into a paradigm where the news matters and the market is more rational than it was before. And the fact that we were in this paradigm, we entered a irrational market and now we're back into a rational market signals that there's been a trend shift and it's gone from bearish to irrational. And now that we're back to a rational market, I think it's back to bullish.

>> Guys, I think we gigend no matter what. I mean, you've heard my takes on this. I would I would just put a caveat and say that we're going to dump before we gigend. I agree with you that we're going to gigend. If they hike rates, they're going we're going to dump and then we're going to recover quickly. And I think all of the negative catalysts will be behind us and then we gigend. If we don't get a rate hike and they hold rates steady, then I think we there's no negative catalysts and we we don't need a flush and we off to highs. >> I like it. Let's have a look at the charts, guys. Um we got the charts up here, Rob, or on your screen. Uh Zcash, I mean, barely moved on the day, guys. I mean, we're down we're down two and a

half percent on the Clarity Act not passing. >> Clarity act had no it had no revelence, no impact on privacy is a very debated topic. >> Dude, this this Clarity Act was more about tokenization and market structure. Zcash doesn't care. >> Well, either way, guys, Zcash doesn't care. This thing's going to 5,000. >> Let's look at something that might have had uh >> chain link. >> Chain link >> down 3.8. 8 liquid down 4.6. >> Right? So these things were much more >> lighter down 4.2 >> related and influenced by what I'm saying is guys we're putting in the clarity act daily candles right now and these I mean Ethereum looks a bit meh

but these things are nothing. This is just another candle in the candles like these are just these are irrelevant. These candles are totally irrelevant guys. So now Andy, now that we're down, you know, Ethereum's up 2400, you know, Hyperliquid, Lighter, Chain Link down 3 4%. Yeah. >> Are you buying this dip? Are you waiting for the FOMC? >> I am all in. >> Um I need money. I need some distributions from this business. I need to go sell some shekels. I need money cuz I am all in spot. >> Oh my god. >> I am pretty, >> guys. I'm cracking up some hard cuz I know this is true. And he's been sweeping the dust across across our corporate treasury account, trying to find money, >> scraping together shekels to try more cash, pound more money into this market.

So he >> I am I am not joking around, guys. >> Absolutely not lying. This is pure genuine honesty. >> I'm full. >> I've seen it firsthand. >> I'm all in. I'm all in. I have a property. I have some gold and silver. I have maybe like five figures in my bank account at best. And I am all in. So, I am all the >> I had some limits set. I uh >> I hope they get hit. I I mean, look, I'm going to feel some pain. If we get a puke here, I can't lie, I'm going to be down six figs most like whatever. Like, >> but I'm I'm going to ride it. I don't care. >> I had limits set from 76 or 77 wherever we were all the way down to 70. Basically, just $1,000 increments. So, I had a limit at 70, 71,

72, 73, 74, 75 on Bitcoin. And then I had limits on ETH from 2,00 2,100 2200 2300 2400. >> Well, your will your 75K hit today on Bitcoin. >> 75K limit hit. So, goodbye. >> ETH, you're 23 or 2400 limit hit. Goodbye. >> Um I don't know what else you have. >> I had so I had limits down to 70K and limits down to 2K. >> Yeah. So, you're you you you hit on the first highest set of your orders. Zama news today. Long-term hold. Stay tuned for that Gigahawk giveaway. Yes, we are uh releasing our episode with almost shortly. Robbie did it earlier today.

It's a great episode. Uh bro, checking old wallets. Yeah, monkey, dude. Like, it's bad. Like, I'm texting Robbie like the other night. It's like, bro, how do we bridge this $3,000 from this chain over to this over to our wallet so we can split it in half and distribute, you know, distro it out so I can buy one more Zcash? Like, it's just like, how many Zcash can you possibly accumulate? >> I still got to check the chain and make my side of the dros. Like I just like how many Zcash can a man get his hands on? >> So Andy, what do we want to close out the show with here today? We've got what is this? Ethereum.

>> Yeah, ETH to me. Look, >> ETH Bitcoin chart pulling back a little bit as well. >> Oh, is this ETH Bitcoin here? >> Looks okay though. >> Let's zoom out a little bit here cuz this is a nice upward trend. What kind of levels are we Oh my goodness, >> dude. I know. This thing's ready to explode. >> That looks incredible. We just can't have a roll over here. We just can't have a roll over here. A roll over here just bleeds out. It's I have I think I have to say it. >> You know, we went to this Canton exclusive dinner last night. They had the Canton Summit today. >> We went to, you know, the private dinner last night. >> Yeah.

>> I have never heard so many bearish ETH takes in one room. >> Really? I didn't hear that many. I didn't ask. >> I didn't. Everyone I talked to. >> Yeah. >> You know, we were talking about the portfolio construction thesis, barbell thesis, hard money, Bitcoin, Zcash. On the other side, you know, it's revenue meta onchain businesses. >> Yep. >> You know, you guys know the names, hyperlquid, near pump, >> lighter, >> put canon in there. They're generating revenue right? >> Yep. >> And everyone is everyone well the the it it starts when everyone is part of that same thesis. That is such a crowded portfolio and I think it's going to continue to run. I think there is a wealth effect. I think there's still

plenty of people sidelineed. people are going to buy that portfolio a lot higher. >> Zcash and Hyperliquid are the winners on each of those barbell sides respectively. But then, you know, you've got beta to each of those and I think that portfolio is going to do extremely well. But if you're I I would say the one risk because we always want to be challenging our priors and challenging our assumptions. >> Yeah. >> I think the risk to that portfolio is that it's a crowded thesis right now. >> That's what Dan was saying from CMS >> and CMS kind of originally put this in in mind, man. And so if you're concerned and you want to hedge that side of things, I mean, what better asset than ETH? Because ETH is so underowned. Even amongst the people that are in the industry and they haven't left and

they're looking at the winners right now and they're in hype and they're in Zcash, >> they don't own ETH. >> Nope. >> Tom Lee is the only guy that owns ETH and he's not selling. And he has taken so much supply off of the open market. Yeah. that will add so much reflexivity into ETH. I mean, it's exactly what happened with the Hunter Biden laptop coin. They put in some initial liquidity. They pulled it. Y >> they left 66 coins and $500 of liquidity. Terrible. Bots and snipers pumped that thing to the price of Nvidia. >> Terrible. >> And then they and then they and and it was because of the lack of liquidity.

And Tom Lee is doing the same thing with Ethereum. Yeah, >> he he took so much liquidity and so much supply off of the open market that it is going to be extremely reflexive once these things really get going. And so I am using ETH as a tactical hedge as a tactical hedge to the portfolio barbell thesis as a as a as an asset that is underowned and is contrarian to those who own the rest of the portfolio bar. >> I like it. I like it. I think that is the same way. I like it. That's why I'm long. Um, and I'm in. So guys, that's our show. I uh, we are gassed. We've had I mean, dude, we have had the week of a of a week. And I mean I mean, it's not

even it's not even halfway through, guys. Like, we have I mean, we have What? We have >> Are you Are you going to drop the guest that we have coming on? >> No, not yet, guys. We have an insane guest on Thursday. >> We have two We have two insane guests. >> And then Friday's guest is not going to be live. is that's going to be held in the backlog for a little while. >> That's Thursday night. >> We're going to let that one simmer. We're not going to give all of our bullets in one go. We're going to let that one simmer a little bit. Uh dropped that one. Cybo week. Shocked the world a little bit. Um and yeah, I mean guys, we're working we're working our asses off. We're working on every guest you can possibly imagine at the upper echelon of this industry and more. We're

working our ass off to get them on. So, we give you our word on that. We're going to bring the best possible people for you guys day in and day out. Uh, we're all in. We're all in on that. So, we got Avalanche Summit tomorrow morning break, new stream, Circle Arc mainet launch event. You'll hear from the Circle CEO and more. Thursday, we're all day at the Avalanche Summit. Friday, no stream. Going to be insane. I mean, like, we have some insane guests, insane content, so much to talk about with clarity, with FOMC with stable coins, with Circle Arc launch. I mean, it's I mean, guys, we're we're all in for you guys. So, we really appreciate you coming out. You know where to find us day in and day out from the tokenization

tower live from the Empire State Building. It's a beautiful day in New York City. Um, we got to go set up. We got a photo shoot tonight. We got full custom suits. We got photo shoot. Whole team. We're taking everything to the next level for y'all. We love you guys. Green or red, bull or bear. Stay safe. Stay educated. Stay smart. Stay long. Be smart out there. Comfy in spot. The gigas end is going to come. No matter what happens, we believe we'll be much much higher by the end of the year. It's been a damn day. It's been a what a day. What a week so far on on the roll up, guys. It's been our biggest stream ever. Thank you for everybody watching.

Unreal. Unreal. Organic. Just maximum full send here. Hunter Biden interview was bonkers. Can't wait to get that full thing out, guys. Convergence launch today. Awesome. Shout out to Jackie. Shout out to Wisdom Tree. Shout out to T token relations. Shout out to all the producers. Marcelo, Leo, Fernando, Nero, Megan Alex Aliona Kate >> Naton, >> everybody else behind the scenes. You guys make this possible. So >> yeah, let's get it, guys. Let's keep going. >> We'll see you guys tomorrow. >> Have a big week. Big day tomorrow. Big day. We'll be live. We'll we'll be live for damn near all the day tomorrow. So you'll see a lot of us. Thank you so much. Rocking out. Stay frosty. Stay bullish. Stay bullish.