Why SolverFi Is The Next Big Trend In Crypto

Transcript

welcome back to the rollup for today's episode we sit down with Kevin Wang of colani to talk about the intent Centric view of the world we've been positing this CIS for a while that the future of interoperability between rollups l1s l2s and everything in between is going to be powered by a chain extracted front end and an intent based interoperability back end we talked a lot about this thesis a lot about the intent cental Viewpoint of the world the state of solver finance and where we are Ed with onchain solving and some of the biggest opportunities of crypto today hope you guys enjoy let's Jump Right In for a quick word from some of our awesome sponsors birex Edge is now live on say Network say users can now trade 50 plus

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often times fillers and solvers who have balances left on different chains that they need to rebalance and reset their positions this is where evercar comes in ever is pioneering a collaborative approach to the chain abstraction future and they are willing to work with interoperability Partners solvers and other providers in the space to build a interoperable and chain abstraction future check out Everclear ever clear.org and welcome back to the L what's going on guys welcome back to the rollup today we have an episode about intents and the intent Centric world I think probably if you've watching us for some time if if you're part of the community you probably have heard of intents you probably have a good idea

but I think like this could be a really good primer an Ever Clear or an evergreen video about kind of like intense at least in the beginning and then Kevin's gonna start to tell us why Kanani is the best thing since slice spread and we're going to have to tell them why there's why it's not or why it is but we're going to find all that out Rob here as well GM yeah GM yeah uh pretty stoked to have this conversation because uh Kevin uh put me in a brain twister multiple times during ECC and so I really I love I love uh the way that Kevin thinks and the way that he makes me think um and yeah I think we're going to talk about intense we're going to

talk about intense and solvers I think you can't really talk about intense without talking about Sol s um so yeah we're going to talk all about that and then we'll dig into colani but you know I think it's important to distinguish like there is this intent Centric view of the world but then there's also some other P World Views out there on how to how to view this technology and so Kevin you know this has been a topic of the conversation that you know we've had in the past we have intent Centric we have chain Centric and then there's user Centric maybe you can kind of unpack the landscape as you see it and also you know how you may see it if you hold a chain Centric view or an intent Centric

view or user Centric view wow that's that's a mega question to start the Pod uh yeah so thanks guys good to be here um okay so let's Jump Right In I like how you get start um the chain Centric world view I think everybody at this point is probably very familiar with right so there will be uh multiple chains and then um you know as in your title of your your pod uh many many rollups and users will submit transaction directly to to chains you

know hitting smart contracts and uh you know there's consensus uh reached and uh you know do the the state transitions on behalf of the user and then to get the results right in terms of sort of in this multi-chain uh world then the chain Centric the Train the the chain Centric uh view is that the user will hit a chain right and that the chain will help the user to produce the outcome right whether it's if the user just directly want outcome on that specific chain then you know it doesn't have to anywhere else if what user wants is on the

different chain then the chain essentially need to help sort of do the chain abstraction right so abstract way of interaction with the different chain right so that's what I will describe sort of the chain Centric word view in the context multiple blockchains um then you have this intense Centric word view right so the int Centric review is to say well the user really does not have to sort of uh start their transaction uh sort of targeting a specific chain uh they can just describe what they want as outcomes the outcome could be on the single chain it could be

on multiple chains it could be on you know the where the chain that they have assets or it could be on a totally different chain uh it could be on multiple different chains right uh the US just need to the application helps the user to author a message uh you know AKA intents that's provable so that the outcome uh and give to solver this is where solvers come in right and give that intent to solvers and the solvers can help to manufacture that outcome for the user but in approvable way right so um uh so that the solvers basically don't rug the

users right so that's sort of a brief introduction of what a intense Centric worldview would be and that's how you just to interact with the blockchains and then I would say I mean I think user Centric worldview is probably not very well defined uh at this point I mean I've seen some people start talking about it but in my interpretation user Centric worldview to say um that you know like in the in the previous two scenario the user will give their transaction easier to a chain typically this is like a chain abstraction chain right or to a bunch of solers that are readily available to do something half of the user in the last

scenario I would say the user will give the transaction or intent whatever they sign or authorize at the outcome to somebody that's aligned with the user right so in other words this is like your personal assistant right your personal um uh I mean we we always like a colon we us use the word solver just uh to everything but this is like your personal solver and then depending what you want to do your personal solver will optimize just for you it's aligned to the user specifically so it's like I have like winter mute in my back pocket and I'm like yo your you have your own white label winter mute in your back

pocket right do you feel like AI is going to be involved in that maybe as well like is AI agent something there I think AI agent will definitely be aligned uh be involved right but that's like a much much bigger topic but then okay okay then you have this sort of even in that context right you have you have the chain Centric world view and the intent Centric or the not intended intent in the context of non intent sort of work view this agent or this you know this um assistant whatever you call that it tends to take the role of a personal block builder for user right like multiple PL well you know in the context like a multiple concurrent

proposers and that topic coming up then if the user could have a block proposer that's aligned with the user this is like the extreme uh Direction a use case of like how many multiple block we can have we can have like 100 million of them then everybody can have one right then this block proposer right and you know block building block proposing and you know that can be all customized and they can actually help you build a Blog and then propose it you know like as fast as possible just you know to benefit you right so that would be the context of this train Centric sort of personal um you know personal uh what do they say like uh account Centric or

person Centric uh work View and then on the intent site you have your personal Sol to help you achieve you know what you want right so again these are are you know two two parallel works yeah so we have like these different ideas for how people are seeing the the chains now uh and just kind of like how we're seeing user interaction so this kind of intent Centric view this chain Centric View and then like this user Centric view which is like I don't know it's almost like a combination of them but it's like you have you you have some sort of like personalized uh solver working for you uh in this capacity so like like in terms of like the transacting that we're doing like now like why how is how is shifting from

like where we are now like I guess you call it like traditional or like chain Centric view like how is that transition to intent Centric view going to happen like like is it going to happen like when is it going to happen like we we we we've heard a lot about intense like yeah what is this going to look like to actually get to this um you know to get to this place yeah so uh I mean I can talk about like the motivations and the driving forces behind uh sort of intense uh I think there are three right uh the first is user interactions or user experience ux um you know today's US experience user interaction with the bo is not

ideal um right so user needs to know how to pay gas in the multi-chain sort of contact you need to know how to bridge uh and you know transaction sometimes reverts and so on so forth right so there's a big sort of um con set of concerns around how to optimize the user experience for users um and then you have the second Direction which is from the application point of view right and this is when you see a lot of the int C appliations being built you do get once you build in cetric apps like you know the most famous One probably cwop and un back is also coming with their sort of intense

Centric way of interacting with the app um but when you build your applications in the intense Centric way yes you get better user experience by default um but you also get better optimization uh by tapping into solvers right and this is C swap often you know have very good um execution price for for users right and then the last one is architectural concerns right this is what I describ but intensive to architecture and this is not just about building apps or building um you know facility experience but think about the much higher level to think about how we can structure like scaling Solutions in

the context multile blockchains and then what type of infrastructure should we build to um that's most optimal right so if you build intens architectures then you get both for free you get uh because int Central architecture is going to be the most optimal to build int Central applications right um and also get the bettery to experience as well right because everything's intense so there are three levels and uh I think they all have their driving forces the intensity architecture is more towards sort of today's skating issues I think you guys talk a lot about this in in in in the podcast uh you know in fragment the

liquidity you know the market structure is not is not ideal and uh you WR on solvers around availability of solvers and all that right uh so that's like the biggest like a Mac R the biggest picture High LEL picture I think it'll be helpful to to put this these different worldviews into like more practical examples yeah and so you mentioned a couple like uh you know when we're uh writing in the uh intent Centric View it's like you know we're specifying like a set of like outcomes that we want and then as long as I end up with you know this amount on this chain like I'm good

yes and then solvers kind of like figure out how to make that happen um and then in the chain Centric view it's like I give a very specific set of instructions to a a rollup or a blockchain yeah and then you know they basically just the blockchain just takes my instructions and and operates those functions it's not really up for interpretation like solvers don't really have like the creative freedom to like figure out the best way to optimize my transaction yeah but like the the intent Centric view is still we still have very specific intents like you know the one that I I tend to use the most often is

like Unis Swap and AC cross and like you let's use a cross for as an example you know it's still like very specific it's like I am instructing across to take my usdc on arbitrum and give me usdt on Main net or usdc on Main net it's not General it's not like a very general form of intent that I think we're going towards and so when we're talking about like transitioning from this chain Centric view to more of an intense Centric view like how do we get to the place where you know I end up and I'm kind of like I don't really care where I have my

usdc give it to me on any chain right and a more General instruction that a more General intent that can span multiple different blockchains I don't care if I get usdc or usdt or die I don't care if it's on optimism or arbitrum or or Bas right just give me the most amount of stable coins that I can get for a particular swap yeah absolutely so um so going back to sort of the two approaches right um so in the chain abstraction or you know um you experience uh you know point of view uh from that point of view you can kind of think about chain uh the chain Centric world view as you pick a blockchain

typically the you know the chain that instruction blockchain as your remote control that's your universal remote control right for the user so what the chain says is look if you can interact with me I'm already inter I'm already integrating with 20 other chains right I know how to perform interactions with them right so you interact so first of all keep your assess on me right because that's how you interact with me uh keep your assess on me and then tell me what to do but the the outcome does not necessarily have be down my chain the outcome can be on bitcoin or base like you said right anywhere and I'm going to you know after you send me a transaction land in my block and I'll

take it from there right I will say okay you have this confirmed on my chain now the next lag is maybe do a swap on Bas or uh do another transaction somewhere else right so that's the chain center it's like a remote control right a chain that's universal remote control and then you have the intense centrical review right to say well you're actually not giving you transaction on the blockchain right um you are giving your you know outcome focused request to a network of solvers and what the solvers will do is uh they will prove to you that they have accomplished uh what you want on the

external blockchain like you said either it's a single chain or it could be on multiple chains or could be hey I want the maximum stable coin as possible but again you have to describe this is the the again 10 application uh uh developers job to help you to describe a specific set of constraints right or proof obligations like we say that like what does it mean by stable coin okay St coin really just mean J DT and die right what does it mean by on any chain well it's really realistically just these five chains right that we think the users should keep their assets and uh and also the uh what mean by as many as possible right so that means we

assume all these tokens are you know one to one first of all just because they're stable coins and then I just compare the erc20 amount for example right so the the the application developer have to do the translation uh for the user and author the specific you know specific enough uh again we call obligation approved for The Sovereign say hey here are the things you have to prove to me that you have done this right and then the Ser say Okay bunch of you know do a bunch of things as they come back and say hey look I've got you this many die on Spas this many us see on here on here and uh you know the optimality is also provable

again that's sort of another different Rabbit Hole can jump into tees and you know sort of NPC networks and that stuff things but you know um but that's actually that's what intense do right and then back to question of uh you know um talk about Unis X or or or cross as in 10 Century applications um now if you want to express this in a generic way uh today you don't have necessarily the infrastructure available to hang these uh sort of uh intens application so in the ideal way these intensive applications would uh sort of be built and then can be expressed together with the you know

sometime people call this general purpose intent architecture intent infrastructure and this sort of intent infrastructure will allow you to express not just you know uh Crossing uh same coin swaps or question transfers or you know token swaps but can be um you know arbitarily uh expressive um and then the solution may not come from a single solver but could be coming from multi multile solvers collaborating together to accomplish what they want so that's like the big picture then we'll talk about int architecture here right these are the three levels ux applications and um architecture yeah and I think you bring up a really good point that uh

kind of like this tweet that you put out highlights um which was basically that um you know you're talking about the ways in which some of these applications were going to be writing kind of basically rule sets for solvers to interact with within their application right and this is kind of like this answers some of the questions around that that we've been Fielding around um some users are are going to only want their uh certain chains because of risk parameters or how like do users care about what chain they're on well yes it's a spectrum some do so that these types of written constraints these coded constraints kind of operate at the application Level and then I assume also eventually at the user level you know

that there there's going to be some sort of way to kind of set what you're comfortable with as you're saying and then you you kind of brought this all together by by Illuminating how all of these different parts of uh kind of the the stack if you will are like dominated by solvers and so this tweet is very like we're not you're not dominated by solvers but like influenced and the order flow is coming through solvers via intense and so you put out this tweet about solveri with all these different things that we have in the market today basically in defi me yeah really like this is defi um yes and so everything that you have here is solver Centric um so maybe you want to unpack this a little bit and speak to some of the uh kind of bullish cases that you

had here um and I'd like to take a stab at trying to kind of play the other side on some of these cases as to where things could go wrong but yeah maybe you could just kind of unpack this a little bit yeah sure uh again I mean we can go back to the chain Centric versus the intense Centric the worldviews right so once you have like this chain Centric worldview then you I mean this is the world that we know today you you know developer bu defa applications deploy the am chain amm landing and you know liquidity pools and then you have you know bonding curves to determine the price whether you trade or you borrow uh sort of the yield you're paying and so on so forth right so that's sort of the chain Centric overview uh now the

problem with that is you can deploy your def5 I on the chain and uh but how do you get access to users from other chains and how do you want to I mean I mean what people have done is just okay I'm going to deploy another three copies on another three major chains uh but then you have liquidity fragmentation right and you know for example for a lending application the biggest you know the bigger pool you have then the better rate or less volatile the rate will be it's better for both s uh uh borrowers and lenders right so that would be ideal but if you deploy a multiple chains um you can only calculate the current um uh you know the

current borrowing rate based on local state right so based on what's available in your pool uh so if you Deploy on you know 10 different chains and you really just calculating that rate based on one tenth of your protocol uh total liquidity right um and that's not ideal because give you know from protocol developers point of view um that's not ideal for their app from their users point of view it's not um uh they're paying very volatile rates and unpredictable and then obviously there's a ux you know reasons as well like okay well I'm happy to be on the1 chain that you're not deployed on what am I going to do I also want to use you what's going to do and the chain also want to reach out to like potential

users from 50 different chains instead of just 10 chains and then you know keep deploying this one at the time is is a lot of maintenance cost there's a lot of infrastructure cost lot of like governance you know everything comes up and and become more and more harder and harder the the more deployment you do I think this is fundamentally the reason people think about oh I'm just going to launch my app chain right so I'm going to now uh own my you know have my own uh run time in virtual machine and then I'm going to concentrate all liquidity on my chain and then if you want to integrate me hey you have to integrate my chain right and we see a lot of uh I think a lot of the deeper applications are all

planning to launch their own roll up of their their chains uh I think for this reason right so then you know like back to 's question right so what is solveri and why would that be interesting Direction like from like the def5 that we know today right the solveri takes a very offchain Centric approach right so instead of um thinking about deploying you know which chain I'm going to deploy on or have my own chain how to have everybody that integr with my chain and composable with other defi apps on different chains because not everybody has their own chain right how how compatibility will happen so on so forth now the idea of solver fights to say instead of integrating you know as a a protocol

developer application defi application developer instead of integrating with a chain or having a chain I'm going to integr with solvers right it's the same uh sort of logic and the same use case and the the same um uh you know users they serve but they want to integrate tightly with solvers right so the solvers live offchain right so if you deploy your application in the way for solvers or optimize for solvers and for solvers to be able to use and so on so forth then you automatic because Sol integr with all the chains right uh in the ideal world like INTC point of view then everybody can use your

application and you your defi app right because all they have to do is just Express the intent and then hey solvers already have access to your to your protocol and uh they can help user to interact with your protocol if you're already inter with the solvers right um so that's the idea of of soli I mean we and I understand that yeah and I understand that but the reality is that all these benefits are very clear like you want you know if you're a you're launching a chain soon you want to be tightly integrated with all the solvers because you want to have um you know in this world of chain of struct and in this world of a one Wallet account whether it be like one balance

particle or near Etc Zion there's all these you know players that are going to make this a reality you know these this solver uh activity will be happening kind of under the hood when you're using a on a chain when you're on when you have assets on all different other chains and so I understand this I understand the multi-chain native I understand the lack of fragmentation especially paired with chain abstract ux um you know I do understand the Integrations as well the L lvr and kind of me conversation as well as the orderful conversation so I get all but like the reality of the matter is if you're not in Amber's Pockets winter mut's pockets

or in somebody who is dominating the solver industry's Pockets if you're not doing a handshake deal with them or you're not integrated you're screwed so whether we figure out how to democratize solver networks which may be something that Kanani can help with or other teams or teams just do backand back room deals with big solvers to get a better experience the teams that have more money and better connections end up winning out so like that is the big problem that I'm seeing with this entire View is it it often comes back and I think this is a problem for other parts of the space but specifically with with your solveri thesis the lack of democratization of solvers seems very problematic you gave me the pitch for

[Laughter] Kanani you said me a lot of time you know just describing the problem right that's exactly right and uh I mean we can talk about you know we can go into the reason why this is the case currently um but yeah but you're you're you're spot on right that's the status quo um but it doesn't have to be the only reality that we can that we can deal with and and this is why why with Bill Kanani is to I mean the reason for this is currently there's not a platform for solvers right and what you mean like like there's no way place where I can be like hey I got a you know I got 10 million bucks I'd like to put it to work on chain as a solver how do I do it like

that the process of joining the the network or process of becoming a solver is currently difficult I'll give you analogy uh and you know I'm I've been around for a long time in the in the blockchain space uh so I'll give you like bring you back to maybe 2013 right and ethereum was not around so building a decentralized application basically means you have to build your WR chain and it realistically means you have to modify Bitcoin uh source code and then you know put in some up codes customiz out codes like so some people really go crazy with that and then uh and that's to application I

mean there are actually generations of app D apps uh they didn't call them D apps but just they are D app that's understood today being built in that approach right but the cost of building such things is very very high uh if you go that direction um now what ethereum provides is a platform now a lot of the sort of think about I mean here inide of the P so a lot of like mining pools sourcing your mining pools getting miners to produce blocks and uh uh you know infer or like note operators that will actually run your thing uh in a decentralized way and then you know how to think about uh paying for cost like

DDOS all that is abstract away from application developers um with ethereum this is what ethereum why it's a zero to1 Innovation right because is significantly reduced the cost of building decentralized applications and the outcome of that is you have a new generation of developers uh sort of building on top of ethereum it's a very different profile with the folks that you know built the apps before ethereum came around right um okay so now where with solvers again we're like solvers the solvers world is like d developers in 2013 right you have to do so much the cost is so high and uh you know you have to be like system

Engineers right you have to think about cryptographic algorithm to build your own P sort of hash function so that you're not get attacked by Bitcoin miners or ethereum ners this is like the thing in 20122 2013 and so on right this is why we have like winter M and maybe a few solvers are dominating this this our space so I mean I said you were giving the Kanani pitch because what colani trying to do is to say we are going to be the platform so we're not a solver Network we're not as solver a service platform um right so what you do is to say instead of building the entire thing from scratch you know rust code python whatever running servers you're going to deploy you're going to write software

you're going to write code modules and then you deploy those code modules to Kanani just like you deploy smart contracts on ethereum you deploy code modules on clent we call them solving modules and you know we can get to a lot more but um then your module you can also refer to or compose other modules also on right so this is one you don't have to build the entire thing you can build your own specialty and rely on you know other uh solers the modules they deploy to collaborate with you to solve intents right and then in the end you just run CL node as your solver right so just run our Note software as your partial solver or as your full solver because you still may sayy I have some

secret thing that I you know I would want to share with the world that's fine just leave it local and then the part that you want to share and you you you uh you do want to collaborate with others on like liquidity and stuff they can be on chain right so that's what Kan does the hope is that with this approach just like ethereum radically reduce the cost of building you know D we're going to radically reduce the cost and barrier building solvers um so anybody body can build a and not anybody but 100x cheaper to build solver you don't have to compete with winter mute on 20 different dimensions execution cost and liquidity inventory reach you know Central exchange access and I don't know block

Beauty that's yeah that's big I mean yeah go ahead like I I I get it and like I'm bullish it's a cool idea it's it's going to work I think but like I think it's still farfetched to say that you're going to be able to get somebody with five million bucks put them on Kanani and they're going to be able to compete with with winr mute via some sort of collaborative solving like I just don't see how winam how even a collaborative model is going to be able to H like like like basically winme and like these big solvers are effectively operating a tragedy of the common situation where there is there is extractible value to be had they can they can catch all the fish I feel like the only way is is that

they have to like give away some of these like niches so like maybe you have a set of collaborative solvers on colani that dominate like three chain reps where win you is kind of like you know what it's like Star Wars they're like you know you guys go to that Galaxy we are like the Imperial you guys go to that Galaxy over there and you guys can own that little Galaxy right and they have their own way of life and like I just don't see how unless win mute is just going to be like screw it we're only going to solve for like the top 10 biggest chains and we'll let all the other chains kind of just go to smaller solvers maybe that's going to happen maybe you can like and I know Robin's question as well but like maybe you can like fill me in on how you see that

Vision playing out like how are these guys going to interact and also how does colani solver networks that are collaborative kind of prove me wrong welcome aboard on our journey into the singularity this is the endgame road map for fra and fraxel the new L2 out of the fra ecosystem that is totally based on fractal scaling fractal a modular L2 blockchain built by fra with modular and fractal scaling in mind fractal scaling is based on the mandal BR set of fractal images and it explains how l2s become l3s and the entire app chain life cycle goes through its Evolution the FRX

ecosystem is made of some of the top builders in the space and has stemmed from its OG days of the fra stable coin it is now in the LST space the LRT space and this fraxel L2 joins the existing Suite of frax products including fra Swap and frax lend you can see fra fairy the bridge to go from any chain arbitrum optimism or main net into the fra main net Bridge your tokens and bring your FRA assets into the fractal ecosystem join today to get get the best out of frax you are still early join today take

part in our Expedition into the singularity coent is solving the longterm data availability problem where a lot of the data availability providers today in the modu space when you post data to them they actually only hold that data for about 12 to 16 days and then it's basically they can go into archive note or often times it's just kind of put away into the abyss and what coent is trying to do is build this long-term data availability solution which can plug into some of this modular data availability providers and provide this longer term Perpetual data solution so what we try to think of this as is when you post transaction data onto

Celestial or Veil or any of these mod da Solutions or even ethereum Co is able to provide a longterm data storage and data availability platform for that data after the the time period blockchains are Billboards not databases and you know we need these providers in the space to be able to kind of hold on to the longterm data that is provided from these providers and these blockchain State this is where coent comes in we just had a nice Rebrand check them out on Twitter as well as the website thank you for being here hope you enjoy the rest of the show so I me going the same question right like what do you think winter mu's core strength is core Advantage is and then we can go from there right because a lot of it is

I mean the whole soli thesis is to unbundle Winter mute so whatever their core strength is you just unbundle it and then you can optimize in single Dimensions you we cannot build we cannot beat winter Mills like as a whole but we can beat them like on specific things for example like Landing right like in terms of capital available for solvers to borrow at runtime to be able to facilitate the intent right uh you know like if you look at defi a has billions of inventory to be borrowed and it can you can happen like on the spot right you know can we beat winterm just on Landing alone probably yes and then you talk okay what about Crossing okay

winterm maybe on five chains or 10 chains there zero uh you know hyperlane across maybe on 100 chains so just on that Dimension can we be winterm yes right and then you talk about inventory right winterm may have tens of Millions of eventory like for trading that's what Unis has billions can we build sovy something like Unis or maybe you yourself right so that we can beat winter M on inventory I think yes right and then you just do the same like what about you know settlement and you know stable coin liquidity and you know exchange access right uh you know do we have like for example somebody that's

um maybe like a you know somebody just quit their Quant you know trading Quant trading fund job and uh you know maybe they do have a very sophisticated or maybe you maybe they work for one of the lead maybe it's winterm employees quit their job and say hey guess what I can build it on my own right I don't need your infrastructure because solveri or clani or whoever it is provide me all the infu I need right so I can just describe my trading strategy as as algorithm and basically function as a collaborative solver and then I tap into to liquidity provided by you know a solveri uh liquidity protocol you know and so I can just focus on one thing then guess what I can be on par with you

know the whole Machinery of winter so that's kind of the idea or you can like at least like justify it and make it profitable long term and like actually have like sustainable product Market fit from like a revenue perspective for the economics of the system but then most importantly I mean realistically like the economics system are important for you guys to stay around do well by your investors and such but what's really the the knock on effect of doing this and finding these niches of these lending markets or of um specific cross chain rollup cluster niches or of kind of this is then the whole ux of for everybody gets better which is like what we're all here for ultimately um but like finding those like it's often funny how in crypto you have to find the product Market fit for to make economics make

sense to to then give the benefit of your product to everybody in the space um so they're kind of twoo hand inand I'll cter that as well because this is another way we can beat winterm we kind of going to put them on the well I don't know why but yeah I was almost thinking you guys could probably collaborate with them in some capacities to further unbundle them as well yeah so uh that's another big topic but yeah okay so uh so bringing back to like profitability locally on the specific Dimension right when you have collaborative solving you have collab like collaboration mode enabled not every um sort of segment have to be profitable right this is the same idea as casinos

will run bus services at a loss like a loss leader right so you could go to a rollup and say hey guess what you know why don't you just pay people like free liquidity to come to your chain yeah you're gonna have to series a you're G have serious there faster buddy you rais like $50 million right and then and why don't you give like you know 200 Grand liquidity to come into your chain and uh just make it free of cost right and it makes sense for you right it makes you want user to come and you don't want user to pay gas and everything right so optimization when it applies locally you can always find the best type of

optimization because then you can consider local reasons to help you optimize um something like a big you know um uh solver or centralized location they can never get this right uh but when you aggregate these locally sort of subsidized Solutions together you actually get better execution uh among the dimensions that you want right be decentralized infrastructure yeah I mean anything that's like niched down for spe specific use case I imagine you you guys have already done research and you can further uh validate this idea that is you know like you can have specific types of solver infra and different types of solvers offchain that you work

with which specialize more in different areas right so you can be you can beat the large um behemoths and kind of these like insurmountable forces that seem at paper by specialization by niching by going after specific ideas uh or places that they might not be and just kind of doing it slowly over time and then having like opening it up uh you know into larger and larger scope so yeah super super cool thesis so so that is the the modular thesis right so yes it is just modular solvers right modular solvers and the motivation to build Kanani is to decentralize Winter mute and you're doing that by essentially by

providing a platform for modular solvers but like can we can we just like really dig deep into like how it like how does it work how you know if someone's coming out to colani and they're you know they're face to face with the platform what are they doing how can they use to how can they use to colani to build their own solver that ultimately you know collectively all these solvers end up over overpowering winter media yeah again I think it's probably easier to think about like pick a specific use case to to to talk about this I think for your audience probably like Crossing intents are um you know you interview heart and some the you know cross folks um you

know the idea is we can enable uh sort of intense Centric Crossing swaps right to transfer let's say usdc from one chain to to another chain um now the challenge with today's uh sort of solving infra is without solware collaboration right it means a single solver have to be able to interact with both chains right they need to uh sort of lock your deposit on Source chain and then you know pay the user on the destination chain and then bring back a proof that the user accept uh on the source chain right so in other words they have to observe both chains the problem with this

approach as you have too many rollups and Chains It's going to be increasingly difficult for you to have solver that happen to know both source and targets um and when that happened you just have a lifeless failure right so like well I want to you know Bridge from my own game app chain to this um you know cdk chain layer three guess what probably nobody's even knowing both of them run it just two longtail chains brother on a cross right now some arbitrum you got to wait five minutes sometimes it's two seconds wow okay we're talking ancient 88 gaming

chain to freaking the new clear poool oin chain come on like exactly it's not possible right and you know even the chain themselves have incentive to run their own solvers which they do um but then guess who they're going to observe on the other side that okay I'm going to facilitate my own liquidity I'm going to facilitate my own you know I run my RPC and you know all that but I may observe like the top 10 chains top 20 chains maximum I'm not going to just have to observe your game chain like how do I even know you exist I just don't um so that's fundamentally is the challenge right if you do the intense entric sort of you know qu fast finality and swap um

so with solver collaboration what we do is to say we're going to break down this role this solver supposed toly this you know this solver need to like currently what uh the solver needs to do is they have to be able to send the transaction the souring they have the C on the target chain destination chain they have to have access liquidity on exactly on the target chain and they have to have a Oracle they know how to bring back to the source chain right um and then have to have inventory right if even though they know how to do this but they don't have usdc on they can't even fill you uh so what we do is we're going to break this down to smaller pieces right so it's going to be a solver that know how to interact with the source chain another solver know how to interact with

the target it's pretty dumb just I just you give me a payload I send a transaction right that's a pretty simple task the availability for that would be much much higher right you can assum much more higher avability and they have liquidity providers you know like in Kanani everything is a Sol right so liquidity providers we call them liquidity solvers again don't laugh uh right so this say hey I bring liquidity I don't run this offer but hey I've got you know here and there if you want to push me around you know you're happy I'm happy to just take these two chains as my uh inventory that I hold um and then you have provs right approvers are put it down too and say hey guess what I'm on this app chain right and all I do generate proof that

you've done something right uh and again there can be many many different type of provs based on you know um you know like every bridge is essentially some sort of a like something happened on on one chain that you can relate to somewhere else right say Hey you know I can do this I run the validator set the test stuff that happen on on this chain right and then the other direction I have a different set of validators or or testers that attest something happen on that chain right so you have all these type of like we call those a testation provider kind of testation solver or finel whatever you call it but you know if you scre like hard enough everything is the solver like they're all just agents perform singular tasks as long as we can have them all work together in a

trustless way then the system works it's a much better availability it's a much better uh you know we can talk about like being expressive and you know you can reach a lot more you can do more things um and it's actually a decentralized infrastructure right so you don't have to you know like all these are just smaller smaller players that they do single things but you just you just put them together yeah I'm thinking about colani like almost similar to the way I think about igen layer for shared security but but Kanani for shared solver infrastructure and and there's going to be this you're going to need to coordinate between these solvers right yes

so how is how is that done how do you coordinate you know if if there is a solver on that chain XYZ and it's some random ancient 88 game right I guess that's the chain that we're using as an example and then over here way way over there there's some random other chain right you know it takes very long to to get assets from one to the other if you're using canonical Bridges or even if you're using like existing solver infrastructure but for colani it's you know we're saying that we're breaking these down into into smaller pieces but you still need to coordinate amongst all those pieces absolutely yeah that's all we do yeah what is the what is like the specification of like the colani node Network that allow that is sending

messages with like very low latency to the and very high security such that you're able to transmit m you know between these very Niche chains at a at a high high Pace Fast Pace but but also high security yeah okay so on the many unpack there right um I mean we can answer the high security part first right because that's what intense systems are supposed to provide uh as guarantees for the users otherwise nobody should use the intents right so the the safety part comes from uh sort of proofs right so uh you can think about intens system like um always do something for me get paid

later for the system where it's you know like the non intent I don't know chain Centric overview or anything that like we don't use intents it's the opposite it's I I ask you do something I trust you can do it right I'm sing the transaction to the blockchain then I don't know I trust you I mean you don't have to prove me you've done it to be able to charge me gas um I'm just willing to pay gas up front right so even it failed you know you get some guess from me as well where the int Centric view is inverse of this is to say I wanted this but guess what you're not get paid at all if you don't prove to me that you have done it right so that's the intensity overview um that's

also that's the safety guarantees uh for the user the user Express the intent if the uh solvers cannot prove to the user that this has done that the user just the software are not paid right the user don't lose anything um so that's the safety part of it and that is enforced by onchain smart contracts right onchain proof checks uh verification basically so that's the safety part it doesn't matter it's what this is mully local chain if it's crossing the user have to opt in into a Crossing proof system or crossing verification system or a testation system that typically is a bridge uh mostly it can be a bridge it can be Oracle you you can use ccip and say hey I trust chain link ccip a

testation to say something happen get the chain that's fine too it's kind of like a bridge um as well so that's the safety part of right so um you have to prove to me you've done something to be able to get my assets right uh now the decentralization part of this comes from Kanani itself as a solver collaboration platform uh it's also a decentralized infrastructure right it's not not you know roll up the service or solare at the service that we just run a server and help you to launch a solver right we are actually a blockchain that you know have decentralized Valor sets and you know stuff like that that anybody can participate and anybody can deploy solving modules on colani and you know

it's open participation decentralized and you know all that right uh and then I'm trying to think what's the other thing that you me you you mentioned the third the third one was speed which I have a feeling the speed is it's fast because it's offchain um not necessarily right this is where it talks about optimization for the users if for the user latency is important then they can do Sol competition based on latency right if it's not important if the user truly just I'm cost Centric like all the way down then say whoever give me the I don't care about latency right so whoever can uh offer me the the cheapest

cost then I'll pick that so it's so going back to like the very early convers the question that we talk about it's like chain Centric uh you know intense this is like a user Centric expression expression if the user want latency priority you know uh priority then they will pick the solvers that will compete on the dimension of latency so it's possible that you can get really really fast maybe you piay a little bit more right um but that's how fast is really fast 200 milliseconds 50 milliseconds again this basically can menol level fast right but again this is we're going like a lot of technical details right but uh ium so the the sort of the

correct answer is as soon as the solver it's certain that the user's commitment intent is sort of a credible commitments towards like satisfaction uh condition as s of the solver is certain the commitment is made and the solver can uh trust the finality of that commitment then the Sol just can fail right so if you have you know a uh sort of offchain infrastructure or you know I think one balance is building like credible accounts on offchain infrastructure you know if the commitment is instant basically as soon as you see it you know it's done there's no way that can revert or you know equivocate and all that then it just instant right so at like as fast

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cuz part of my thesis are like this whole intense spas in up system is that like we're going to have uh the the this like chain chain obstructor ux is going to be basically powered by what you guys are building amongst other teams underneath like I don't think right now we need synchronous composability outside of these these like rollup clusters if you will I think like from most cross chain interactions unless it's like within the super chain or like within the ZK stack or like within this agay like they don't really need to be like same block I mean there's a lot of use cases where that's really advantageous and I would actually posit that as an argument against colani and against the intense Centric road map is

that there are use cases which do not which are not as functionally like it's not AR going achieve the same level of functionality as they would in an atomic environment but like for the for the current thesis that that we're holding I think it's it's really like let's get these intent based systems really low latency firing with a chain abstracted ux and then a lot of this cross Shain um kind of experience will will be such that you go on an application you you quick swap on Unis swap it does a transaction for you on whatever chain you're on and you your wallet shows your balances and the bridging happens and the swap happens underneath you get a an

intent base Bridge under 200 200 milliseconds ideally under 500 then you get a swap with a pre-confirmation on an L2 in two seconds totaling Less Than 3 seconds from the time you click the button to the time that the cross chain swap happened basically for the bridge and the Swap and then that all feels like it just happened on ethereum L1 with a really minimal gas feet and Bridge feet or like you know feet to the relayer that to me feels like closer than a lot of people think and also feels like a big unlock for this kind of ethereum fragmentation are you talking about synchronous composability I I don't think that is going to be necessary to get the ux unlock I think

the intent based model with like sub 200 milliseconds is going to be enough yeah I think it's not just latency right I mean I I sense you have some reservations that's is why I ask like uh so if you really D in in and think about this right so first of all um intents are a syn sort of uh systems um but for the user from the user perspective it's Atomic which means either what I ask is done or nothing happens right that's almost definition of atomicity right my asset stays on where I am unless somebody Pro to me that this this work is done so from

user's point of view it is autonom automic right now the actual execution because I have multiple version machines and you know stay machines then obviously it's not going to be um the uh Atomic but that's sort of engineering details from user experience point of view it is atomic right yeah that's kind of my point like yeah so that's that's the first thing and you know the I'm trying to you know take a stop here I don't know this is exactly argument but the even you think about this sort of uh share sequencing or you know multi rollup Locking System that you know I going to build two blocks concurrently to be able to satisfy you know a syn compability in in that now the argument is that first of all be able to lock

across multiple rups in the context of many many different type of app applications is going to be challenging how many locks would you need how do you have lock contention can you really you know have the lock when you need it right that's number one and number two is let's say you can you have the capacity to log the two chains now once you do that from the sequencer the the shared sequencer point of view who am I going to uh you know work with to to build a block on both chains and then if we want to scale everything is easy when it's you know low scale everything is e to five chains now if you have 50 to 100 chains nobody can concurrently build

multiple blocks on 50 chains right so now at a sequencer the sequencer is basically a shared solver like share blockchain building solver right so the sequencer now has to work with somebody else to build multiple blocks together then you what then what happens the sequenc has to say I'm going to make a sequencer commitment right to say I'm willing to collaborate with Sol search or whatever you call that I can optimize my block across multiple like these two longtail chains that I have no idea about how to do and then that you have intent again intent come back because that's sequencer commitments to Searchers and block builders on longtail chains it's intense Century application because the

sequencer have to make a commitment for the Searchers sers or or block Builders to perform work for them and then take the fee that the sequencer committed so intend come back in a different way right in that context it's typically just going I mean it's typically going to be around block building mostly um in the sequencer example um it's kind of funny you got me thinking like oh Shar sequencing and and like coordinated block building is actually also um not synchronous in a sense like it is block but it's like still you have to fight for that Atomic inclusion and then execution which is quite interesting um one more thing and then I think we got a

bounce uh I'm sure Rob's got a couple more questions but I I was just curious about like this um like what how would you actually Define the solver networks and solver categories like I know that we had some conversation about it obviously within the Realms of the map it's like you know it's tough to kind of like get too too deep in the technical weeds but like why is this not accurate for solver networks and solvers or maybe like what how would you further expand solver Network solvers and then like maybe solver infra like how would you categorize these and like what are the differences exactly with solver Network solver infra or kind of how else you

would categorize this yeah again uh you know there's no definitive sort of you know answers to these everything is sort of just evolving right but my my definition would be a solver would be um uh like a entity or like a most likely company nowadays um that uh operate their own servers you know running their own infrastructure and then they build all their software and uh uh and they integr with specific applications right so some of the you know uh examples here uh you know say proper has would be definitely solver and then there are other solvers here

I'm not going to name but I mean we work with a lot of sage as well uh they typically are not so you know high-profile well known and whatnot but if you in the sare space you go to these meetups and S events you meet them right they're typically smaller teams uh okay and then to know that uh it's good to know that our our our lovely project Kanani who's working to democratize solver networks is also speaking to private solvers behind closed doors at at at at events but at least they're not yeah yeah of course I mean they are our customers right we want to but we want to integrate with them but yeah um okay so then you have Sovereign networks so the way I would describe sovere

networks um is you have uh sort of multiple solvers that provide similar Services right either it's about a trade or about you know uh swapping across different um blockchains and whatnot right so they do something similar right and they provide similar services but there are multitude of them right so then for an intend application it's valuable because you can say well what if one Ser is down if I just integrate the single solver what if the servers are down then my app won't work and also there's no comp comption right so there's no optimization if only single solware so solware Network and say hey I need uh to go cross chain now I know there's a network of 10 solvers that all

do the similar things I can just give to them and then they decide you know how one of them can help me to to go there so that's my definition of solware networks right so it's a network of solver that do similar things and then you have you know s infrastructure and you know this is what you know we describe ourselves CL is it's the place you build solvers so we're not a solver Network the same way you wouldn't say ethereum a smart contract Network right ethereum is not multiple smart contracts put together ethereum is where you build smart contracts and build DFS right so clown is not you know 100 solvers as a service or 100 solvers waiting there to you know compete for your request Clan

needs to place you build solvers on top of right so that at least from our definition we call a solver infrastructure or software platform um just to be a little bit uh sort of different yeah yeah I think that I think that makes a lot of sense I got maybe two more questions um one is like uh you know you guys are like the blockchain to build solvers essentially um and so are you guys using like one of these you know General rollup or blockchain Frameworks like op stack or arbitr you know Nitro or yeah so it's something more bespoke right so what is kind of

like the AR are you guys using the evm or a different VM or what could you kind of just allude to like some some more of the technical details that you guys are using to to build yeah so okay um you know I think there are certain things that are more interesting not interesting about Kanani obviously we run a consensus you know obviously we um you know they to model and all that stuff that's kind of un not interesting but the the core thing that we bring to the table is a language and a virsion machine right um so we build our own version machine and then you know we have our own unique State model and then we build our language as well uh sort of to express this we call the solving module the Cod module we deploy to

colani and uh so we're not using any sort of off the-shelf uh stuff uh from from uh you know yeah from the stacks cool and I guess like one of my last questions like when when that's also my question when I talk to our Engineers uh yeah man it's uh you know we build the entire thing from scratch and uh we want to be able to launch a a early Network sort of with uh with crutches right uh with some shortcuts and uh you know there will be some centralized parts of the entire system

and uh you know uh we use pretty simple settlement uh for all this um so we hope to bring that much earlier but the entire sort of the the the uh the final architecture will take a lot longer so it definitely won't be this year uh hard to promise beond that are you guys gonna have like like the idea is like you guys have support for anything right like Bitcoin and ethereum and salana as like this and then there's solvers that are able to solve on those for those particular routes these are going to be applications on CL right so just like Unis swap like if you say does ethereum

support all the tokens well if they're app to support the tokens then ethereum will you can do that with ethereum right so it's the same idea as long as there are solvers willing to go to these chains and support certain assess hold inventory and you know trust certain you know attestation conditions and whatnot then yeah user can interact with them and you know Express the intents and be solved very cool and and very very low latency which I think is g to be very very low latency one of my favorite things about about as you were describing like how fast this is is like you know essentially once the solver has the credible commitment like it's essentially as fast as information can propagate yes which is just faster than

the speed of light and I think you know that that that to me is is something that I I found pretty fascinating so this is the thing right so if you again if you think you know if you allow me to take some logical shortcuts here right so we all talk about chain abstraction we all talk about you know chain integration reunite the fragmentation and so on so forth now we have two ways one is you unite them on the Chain level right we talk about the chain Centric worldview in the very beginning you integrate with the mempo level right you can sort of I mean because mempo is basically offchain you know inform peer-to-peer Network the information propagation all that if you can have all the chains have to have a shared M Pool and then and also a

credible commitment machine and then also peer-to-peer proving and all that sort of things again a lot of stuff that we're building you can integrate all the bebook blockchains at this level and guess what it's super fast it's super fast low latency you know safe and and uh you know opin based peer-to-peer transactions I mean that's kind of the the idea where're we're going so col nodes right are all over this network and then the colani mempool is like the mempool from the nodes propagate these transactions or these intents into the colani men poool and then the colani men pool is almost like this Global men poool for the entire world view of all the chains and all the

intents is that like is that I I guess like is that kind of like the uh the goal for Kanani is to have a one universal mempool that solvers can can can solve that's not enough so you have Universal menol for solver to take action like we we strictly talk about latency right so latency determined by when the solver is ready to like do the thing on the defination Chain right um but that's not the entire picture because after the solver do something on the desision Chain guess what the solver need to be paid the solver need to say we talk about solver solver collaboration CL need work exclusiv in the sort of within the solver realm

right so solver start things solver finish things and we do solver to solver pure proofs right so this is why aend is not enough right because you also have to uh allow solver to solver settlement right so if I'm a solver I say hey I call the transaction of the Sor and I make a credible commitment somebody do this to me on the destination chain it's maybe it's a Bitcoin I don't have access to I don't know how to do it and uh now the other person say oh you have credible commments right away like like me again allow me to take some logical shortcuts here right so like oh it's final like instantly then I can do that also instantly for you but the settlement between you and me are going

to be later like solver solver settlement is going to be later right and the solver solver settlement needs not just a menol it needs a blockchain this is where solver solver settlement happens um yeah and so colani is like the like a combination of the intent men pool and then also the solver solver to solver settlement yeah so on onchain is for solver solver settlement right so colch does two things solver to solver coordination in other words discover your counterparty at a solver colani help you to find who I can work with based on in the in the context of specific intent right so we use formal methods to Define intents so when you see intents coming in you know what this

intent is about and then you look at what's on chain and you can discover who can work with you to accomplish to fill this intent so we do coordination on sort of pre- solve coordination right uh and then there's an intent men pool off chain and then there's a there's a transaction uh uh almost like a almost like a an asset topo topography onchain of like which solvers have inventory on which chains that part is like an onchain account model and then there's an offchain uh men pool for intent yeah it's not again we don't you know we don't prescribe a global menol

right so every individual solver and solver Network or internet application have their private mle and that's fine too right so a this is where you know nor C information flow control you can control the information instead of always broadcast everything globally you can also say I mean this is the choice of either the wallet if it's user aligned or the application if it is you know if it's app aligned to say where am I going to send to the information right maybe I send to my own solver networks right maybe a can have their a solver Network and they say here's how I start to propagate to and I can even pick a permission list of solvers who can be the counterparty to the solution so it's oh so it's not a single men pool but it

could be multiple men pools but then again that's just peer-to-peer Network sort of that that considerations yeah fascinating very cool um yeah I think I'm I'm all out of questions okay all right that's that's a great uh that's a good place to end I guess yeah why don't you uh why don't you show your Twitter like where can people find you and and try and you know research and learn more yeah so uh I'm KNN W K1 on Twitter um for Kanani it's just Kanani k a l a n iore network right colani Network at colore network

uh that's our T cool awesome thank you so much for coming on we went over an hour this was fantastic great yeah thanks for having me bye awesome