Why Santi Is Launching An L1 | Weekly Roundup

Transcript

my intent for this project is to build the best customer acquisition funnel for this industry one where we never lead with speculative uh energy we don't lead with this is a crypto product it's like no it's just a great product I'll onboard that User it's a user it's a high LTV user that has never existed on chain and you best believe like if we pull this off well success for me is onboarding 100 200 500 million users on chain and then at that point you're just going to Route like that user might start in my chain he might then venture out in other places um he might not even care or know the names of all these other different chains but the aggregator at the wallet level if they're going to want to use a service that doesn't exist in the inversion

chain it will be routed to another chain today's episode is brought to you by geod net discover how the Network's native token GE EOD is powering the next wave of the robotics Revolution by hitting the link in the description of today's episode hey guys just wanted to take a moment to tell you about our upcoming conference the digital asset Summit New York join us in March where we'll be hosting some of the largest allocators institutions and asset managers in crypto you'll be hearing from guests including Michael sailor Mike novag Gratz Kathy Wood Anatoli and of course me and Santi themes of the conference will include the macro case for digital assets ETF demand and institutional investment us and Global

digital asset policy the case for tokenization and real world assets the rise of stable coins Global Payments and much more hit the link in the show notes and use code Empire 10 for 10% off all right everybody what's going on Welcome Back Santi what's up hey Yano it's good to be here got a big old grin on your face we'll get to that in a second how's the week busy very busy I guess uh but yeah no it's uh uh what do we want to talk about today so I mean look there's a there's a chain that everyone's talking about on the timeline and I just wanted to uh you know everyone's talking about this chain and I think a lot of people were dming me

about this chain so we should talk about the chain so let's talk about uh uni chain so big congrats to the Unis swap team for I'm kidding I'm I am kind of sick so if you hear me coughing into this mic I apologize but we can do this podcast for for over four years and and this is the treatment that I get the smile on your face just got wiped it just it just got and all in in your defense I'm not wearing the blog Works hoodie so probably that was know the source of grief but man you're like a little influencer over here we got people were asking us if we if we have a Shopify store set up after you wore that thing I was like I was like I've been wearing this hoodie for like six months

day in and day out I've never had one request to buy the hoodie I'll just say that mean like I mean I'd be lying if I didn't tell you that like it's a nice sweater it's a good quality I think I did a good job of like the unveiling that the sticker peel it was a good unveiling it was a good unveiling I'm no so I was messing around on the Chain but there is um so congrats I mean you shared that uh inversion what was originally inversion capital is now inversion and you I'll I'll read I'll read your Tweet for anyone who missed it it said uh you said I'm building a chain I like that don't bury the lead I'm building a chain inversion uh instead of differentiating on consensus mechanisms or the nth technical Improvement we are inverting and differentiating on solving

crypto's biggest problem go to market um and and we you know I'm sure you'll talk about the rest of the Tweet because it's kind of a longer tweet but um maybe my first question here that I think everyone was wondering was like just tell me about this journey from you originally wanted to start a I think private Equity Fund to buy companies and move them on chain how did you go from this into I'm launching a chain well invert and say why wouldn't you need a chain well I think the I can answer what everyone would say is aren't there already enough chains like I you know I think it was I think it was Jonah maybe commented on this and said he he asked the question I think everyone was wondering which is why launch a chain when you can just as

easily deploy your portfolio companies into any number of existing ones yeah and you could just as easily spin up your own chain a lot of the tech is out of the box I think I think there's a couple of ideas here one is blockchains are like infinite economic games um we can design and tweak them for different purposes and I think that's the opportunity here having our own chain lets us really purposefully built build um infrastructure that is purpose built for our strategy on the customization side and how we uh you know the the the businesses that we acquire and the resources that we'll use um as a chain are very intentional for this type of strategy uh the idea is to build Burk on chain right

yeah what kind of optimizations do you need there well I think one have being an L1 gives us far more flexibility on a number of fronts um being able to set parameters and recruit validator set and then create you know there's a great post um by Morgan at Avalanche that talks about if the US government were to deploy onchain why would they do it how would they do it so I would encourage people to go read that that but fundamentally um I think it it exists as an L1 um and the parameters that you're able to set are are important here um I think there's some value leakage as an

L2 um you are still beholden to some sort of constraint at that level um but yeah in this journey I mean look I talked to a lot of different chains a lot of different infrastructure providers um and um but yeah the before that Journey the whole idea of initially like um it's like why would we need a chain um my biggest concern was interoperability you know if we on board 20 30 40 100 million users my belief is you want to use a lot of different applications that may sit you know a lot of what you heard me talk about in this pot is using something like helium helium exists in salana okay well can you easily do that and from an

ER Ops standpoint you know talking to layer zero guys was very instructive and saying what is that possible today what does that look like uh what are the technical kind of um resources required to be able to do that and I think you know interoperability has come a long way U launching your own chain I'm not trying to be dismissive of the like pretty Herculean effort that will take um but it has become far far easier and out of the box um and I think at that point it becomes having the ability to bootstrap the chain capture a lot of that economic value without leakage and then using that treasury in a very strategic and aggressive way to go and acquire more users and I think that

flywheel um is is a big Insight that I had um to launch our own chain do you think it's a because I know you originally talked to some I think actually talked to all the chains and all the ecosystems and when you were raising right because they also invest and stuff like that and do you think uh how how big of a missed opportunity is it for them and what like what would you have gone with one of them if they had given you let's say um salana let's say you went to salana or optimism or polygon or Aptos or someone and said uh hey I'll come I'll do this on your chain if you give me uh you know h100 million or something like that do you would you have done it on abdos or polygon or you know I don't know salana if they had

done that it had to be high through b chain an excellent question because I did go through that Journey [Music] um I like the idea of look there's a lot of excitement about what's going on in salana um or some of these other highr but chains like Avalanche or opas or um and I think in those conversations um there's a lot of desire and the question was we only want you to work with us with our chain we there's some tension between what if you want to work with another chain you know how would that work if we're investors and it was just I don't believe in technology lock in I think that um my response to that has always

been look there might be businesses that you run a proper RFP and you at that point determine which business like which chain is most best suited for that type of business and so that was probably one of the more important elements as to why I want to purposefully build and and design a chain that fits the strategy uh more holistically um and and so from that perspective obviously very encouraged by what has been going on in in these high throughput chains like you do see a line of path like towards mainstream adoption there um but working with them initially was very interesting to me

eventually uh less so because of this desire to just be locked into to a particular vendor and I don't think that that is the right approach um I'd say listen I'll hover on top I'll my intent for this project is to build the best customer acquisition funnel for this industry one where we never lead with speculative uh energy we don't lead with this is a crypto product it's like no it's just a great product I'll onboard that User it's a user it's a high LTB user that has never existed on chain and you best believe like if we pull this off well success for me is onboarding 100 200 500 million users on chain and then that point you're just going to Route like that user might start in my

chain he might then venture out in other places um you might not even care or know the names of all these other different chains um but the aggregator at the wallet level if they're going to want to use a service that doesn't exist in the inversion chain it will be routed to another chain yeah and so that that's sort of the the angle that I'm taking hey everyone just wanted to give a quick thanks to today's title sponsor geod net by setting up a base station you can get involved with this groundbreaking web 3 ecosystem learn more by heading over to geod net.com or just by hitting the link in the description of today's episode today's episode is brought to you by uni chain

the layer two designed to be the home for Defi and cross chain liquidity with up to 95% lower fees than ethereum and launching with 1 second block times uni chain is the L2 purposely built for defi powered by Unis swap uni chain enhances defi experiences with faster cheaper and seamless transactions even across chains uni chain mainnet is live and available for everyone to use so click the link in the show notes to find out more thanks to unich chain for making today's episode possible can you say more about what you mean by value leaking because it's a nice I think it's a nice thing that people say like I see it on the timeline and actually was my response to Jonah I was like yeah it doesn't want the value

to leak to another L1 want to capture the value but what does what does that really mean well the the the primary focus for us is can we build a permanent Capital vehicle on chain yeah and I think if you look at the different proof points on the valuations of Lans versus other projects it's just very the data is very compelling at that point so it comes down to the to the fact that you get to have an L1 and a token and actually L1 token is probably the a better form of permanent Capital than than raising like a private Equity Fund or something like that correct because a private Equity Fund needs to eventually dispose sell of those assets I never want to sell the businesses that we acquire um on second Point um I think the the rent that

you're paying to an L1 so like if you're sitting on top of another L1 there is just value that because you're beholden to other activity in that chain so for instance um if you're deploying on Solana there's a lot of activity happening in Solana there's you know you're competing for Block space that you know mind you you could fit into that like there there's a possibility to do it I mean there's pation there's local fee markets there's a lot of things that will allow you to perhaps um absorb all of that activity but you're still it's noisy you're competing against other stuff that is happening on that chain um from first principles I want this chain to be very focused very specific on delivering core services to the user deep a lot of that

is just deep in St coins will there be other activity on chain absolutely but it's just that Focus that I think is very important um and you know I've been excited about for instance the initial conception of Cosmos you look at what Avalanche has done and it allows you to create and bootstrap what feels like a very purposefully built chain people should go kind of listen to the episode of gonzilla Off the Grid because they they went through this journey as well and it was very instructive it's very similar to how I think about building a purposefully built chain um is that chain going to have a lot of the same applications and activity that you see in other chains absolutely but um it is very intentional and purposely built for

this type of strategy over time of course you have other economic thriving activity but I think there is something about sitting as an L1 um running this playbook in a very intentional specific matter whereas if you deploy in another chain as an L2 uh or as a in another high through b chain you're competing against other activity there that already exists and I there is a for me it's more interesting and appealing to just run it from scratch all right so I get at this point why it needs to be a chain tell me about just like the process of going about that and like how yeah how how you selected how to do that yeah definitely look I through my network and connectivity as an investor in many of these projects I was I ran a

proper RFP over the last two months and I really wanted to identify I i' had very clear um what I was optimizing for you know this needs to be a high performance High throughput chain that can support you know hundreds of millions of users and we're all going to stress that because there's no chain that kind of has that but it had to be High performant um and I was optimizing for a couple of things as as I think about acquiring businesses bringing them on on my chain um what really resonated in this process was being having the ability to customize the chain as much as possible without compromising performance um not building stuff from

scratch was important like could I take something out of the box um evm compatibility was important you know there's a lot of projects that are deployed in ethereum that I want um to exist in my chain uh natively and so I did a bunch of calls you know I called the top def5 Founders in my network um called a lot of the best builders that I knew to really validate a lot of the assumptions in this criteria and in sort of that Matrix um I I landed on a tech provider um the the other perhaps really important component was you know of course there I've seen on the timeline like I think

it was Jonah uh and a few others like why does this have to be its own chain why wouldn't you deploy natively um on an existing chain like call it salana apos some of the H suie say what have you or or ethereum L2 and I think there's a very specific reason two very specific reasons for that but the first one is perhaps most important and that is um having sovereignty over block space is very important um certainly like when you think about it's it's it's permissionless so there's a whole Suite of apps that can natively deploy especially if it's evbm compatible but I don't want to necessarily be competing with other other stuff that is just noisy and having a sovereign like having

a sovereign block space has became very very um important um and and that I think when you think about having Sovereign block space sometimes it can come with a tradeoff where you might not have native Integrations you have to think about um is it evm compatible or not what does a brid how do bridging work recruiting validators all these different things obious come at a higher cost and you know a lot of the criticism I fa here was um you know it's going to take a lot of time it's it's like a Herculean effort I spoke with folks that had been involved in some of the larger projects like zero to one and they're like man this going to be a very hard

thing to pull off like why are you introducing more noise but I do think that I come back to the second point which is really important which is getting to a permanent Capital vehicle that I think is is essential and so in throughout all of that process it became very clear that it needed to be an L1 for Sovereign block space for the customization um but also having a lot of Integrations like evm compatibility and tapping into Crypton native um applications and and the AVM compatibility was very essential for that so there's always tradeoffs we've talked about it in this podcast as we bring on many of the best Founders in the space um but I was what helped was having very clear what the mission was

what the end state had to be performance was a big component and really just candidly the level of support um there there's very there's a very big distinction between when you go and talk and I think we talked about it in the last episode like this ethereum restructuring like who are you going to call if you're if you're a large Enterprise you want to think about deploying on chain you teased about something last night about like a really a really high-profile person in a company that wants to build something in crypto I'll tell you from my perspective over the last two months there has been a dramatic difference in the level of support just Hands-On approach of some of these foundations that really want to

win a deal of course the tech has to be there uh and that is obviously the most important thing but it does matter especially now when I don't have a CTL right yeah I need to get a ton of support for that so all of that factored in in my decision and I feel really comfortable about it I'm very excited also validated with two I think it's three to four portfolio companies now that um are deploying and using the same framework and their decision to deploy as I will be doing was certainly like instructive in the process so so will you share where you are building I might get shot for doing this um but yeah I mean obviously as you as you hear all

this um it's Avalanche it will be an avalanche L1 um for the reasons that I articulated and candidly like youer asked me a year ago uh it you know it wasn't even my predictions right yeah um they were far in way the best team that I interacted with top to bottom and that's very important but you know I think it's um I think it's uh perhaps on the on the tradeoff standpoint it just became essential to have Sovereign block space and be able to customize a chain there's a whole set of features there's privacy there's evm compatibility there's a lot of interoperability so and it's high

performing high throughput so one of a lot of these things like every chain claims the highest throughput you know what I mean but like until we have 100 million users active on chain we're never gonna like you know like that to me is the most important but I feel very comfortable um with that and so yeah that's that's where we'll be building nice this feels like uh you know when you know like the the the high school athletes are like picking the you know they've got the four hats in front of them it's like Alabama will it be like Michigan yeah the hats are you gotta get the Avalanche hat put it on the the sworting the crypto sworting had you know yeah of course yeah yeah that's awesome man congrats

and I mean shout out to the a like you know Luigi and John and uh you Morgan and the whole team over there that's exciting they're they're great teams we'll be talking more about our Dash um I think there is worth it's probably worthwhile to have them on at some point talking about it look I I'll just reference and I believe I spoke about it on a prior episode so maybe this is not all that surprising for people Morgan Had has a great blog post um she T she talked about in the context of Doge like the US like treasury like deploying on chain and why it could work as an avalanche L1 I would encourage people to go read that because I think a lot of what I'm talking about here is discussed in further detail in that um in that

episode so yeah you know um that's that um okay going going back to the permanent Capital aspect of this what is the size of a lot of these treasuries can you give us like uh the yeah just like the scale of what the treasury could be if you look at the tokenomics that are you know in the early kind of post of these projects you could probably think that most Treasures own putting aside ethereum um most of these treasuries own anywhere between five and 10% of the token Supply so so if you take you know uh you know A10 billion uh market cap project and they own roughly 10% of the supply that's a

billion dollars yeah so your your thesis here is look if you had a billion dollars in the traditional world you're not just sitting on that thing maybe staking it you're buying businesses you're investing it you're and that's and that's what you want to do right what did a well do with the peak of Doom bubble their stock was wildly inflated what what was they went and acquire real business called Time Warner yeah you know I mean like we haven't earned the valuation of these networks we just haven't and so I think I feel a sense of urgency to do that um and said differently if I were in their position I'd be running a far far more aggressive Playbook and that was a big part of what I decided to launch my own chain said if I could only be in that

position to manage one two 5 10 30 billion boy I'd be doing this like I'd be running vastly different um I think the way we thought about airdrops the way we thought about allocating those resources is is very skewed towards just unclear Roi for these programs U unclear retention uh it probably goes down as one of the more expensive customer acquisition strategies ever um the data is not very compelling and mind you I'm my singular focus is I want to solve the biggest problem that this industry has which is go to market focusing on like delivering core services and if and you need to focus on retention you need to focus on like what is that user doing I get that you

activated 500k or close to a million users to come uh to buy a particular meme coin what's happening after that yeah you need to you need to like make sure that journey is is far stronger than what it is today yeah um have you are you finished okay okay so you've got you've got the you're building on Avalanche you announced the Chain by the way I like that you're building in public um it's oh always uh opens eyes we've we've done that a lot with block works and it is it actually is really helpful because people give you tell you exactly why you're wrong uh in the moment and it actually makes you better but it can be um it can cause actually some competition because people see that

you're doing well and uh and it's just you know you always get a bunch of angry or people telling you why you're wrong in the replies which you just have to get over so I I I like that you're doing that um so so you got the you got the chain uh you're building on Avalanche do you have you started building it I saw you're hiring a CTO yeah the first two hires CTO Chief of Staff um and I've gotten a lot of really good inbounds uh that's really the primary reason why I want to build in public right to really get the word out uh of who I'm looking higher um you know this is a Herculean task I need to find uh the best talent out there and build um build the best organization to really pull this off and so that's been

very encouraging over the last 24 hours you know of of ton of inbounds really high quality ones and so um yeah that's been very encouraging yeah uh people were saying his DMS are closed and the DMS of uh the the account are closed and I was saying I think if I know Santi the reason he's doing that is because if you can't get an intro to him then uh that's I mean that's the application's Dead on Arrival so that's the whole point yeah yeah um okay so there were some questions from the Empire telegram uh how do you think about valuing something like this right foundation only token versus like it's private company with shareholders like it's kind of like Unis swap plus a token or token holder versus shareholder splitting the profits of a given project like Unis swap like how do

you think of this from the investment if you were putting on your investor hat not the founder of this hat how do you think about that look it's a great question like there's a there's a flywheel here of what makes um any infrastructure project valuable or not it's um is there economic activity and there is there fees that are happening on chain and then what are those fees where's that how's that what is the composition of that fee stream and and that's where um I'm very focused on act you know there's two components here one is the inversion chain that any business that gets brought on chain will you know will translate into more economic activity in that chain so at a minimum

if you go buy through a separate vehicle initially a you know you run like a big SPV to buy a Telco company you um you know through that wallet you offer on and off ramp to stable coins you use a network like helium on the back end there's settlement happening on the Chain a subset of that user base um ends up using stable coins that gets settled on the Chain they may do other things things um you know use the decks use a money market use other different products and services that exist in the chain and so that just translates into more economic activity um and that that's a value Gru at the change that is

no different than any other chain like salana Bas arbitrum um um you know there's no different there I think the more interesting thing is um what is like you need to believe that the the fee stram is sustainable that it is enduring um you know we all know that where fees dry up if it's pure speculation that is very tied to just where we are in the cycle um the goal here is if you're if a lot of the fee stream comes from core services like mobile I mean that's that that's just a core service and if you're retaining that then you really transcend this sort of cycle

right and so that's the exciting part here is which is you know I think I think if you look at the fee stream of a lot of these projects it's very cyclical um and leading with a course Service uh allows you to build a very sustainable um and you see a path towards that feed stream growing as as more businesses get acquired um you know more businesses get brought on chain and so that flywheel is just yeah keeps and going right um it'll be very interesting like I've thought a lot about things of like you know when you run broker on chain like can you do acquisition financing on chain you know because a lot of it is you know you want to use some leverage I

was thinking about this too right if a private Equity you were saying you know L1 has a billion in in the treasury private Equity Firm had a billion in cash they're not just going to use a billion in cash to go buy a company right they're Levering up they're using a bunch of financing so that was gonna be a question I had for you yeah so in this journey like I've looked at a lot of businesses there's a very actionable business out there that I'm looking closely at that fits very nicely with the strategy of acquiring distribution at a cheap price mobile mobile network carrier yeah that's been one of perhaps the biggest ins Insight putting aside the kind of the this has to be a chain for permanent Capital reasons but from um what is the best business to acquire I think that is probably one of the most

the biggest insights I've had which is I don't think there's a better distribution business to transform with crypto rails and then activate that user base to use crypto Services than a mobile network carrier particularly why why is that well a couple reasons you live with a customer 247 um that you're offering them a core service like mobile and structurally that business so like an MV it's a fancy term for a network a mobile service that doesn't own the infrastructure that business is meaningfully transformed with something like helium because their their main costs are data costs um and customer acquisition so if you're not

Ryan Reynolds you know you're really struggling to acquire customers um you really can't really change that much but what you can really transform is the price per gigabyte by which you're paying on the wholesale side and that's largely the biggest cause for these companies they have terrible margins like less than 10% eidon margins so that's why when I say you can buy it at the right price the multiple on these businesses is an interesting one so you can end up buying a service that has 10 20 30 million 50 million subscribers at a very compelling price and that user once you again it really starts with once you own that user like you're living with that user

247 they're going through an app to top up data to pay their subscription that's where you that's where you insert yourself in the flow and say Hey you can stable coin you offer them M MVA know Santi is like a like Metro or like um like like mint mint or boost or something like that mint is Ryan Reynolds one which I I like example because what made M mitt honestly Ryan Reynolds figure like they the customer acquisition was cheaper because yeah yeah but they're all staying you know as you get more volume more customers you you might be able to negotiate a better price per gigabyte on on and and that ends up being I'm looking at a list of M mvn so you'll buy like maybe the the 20th biggest one that's like crappy and

like not really doing well and yeah I mean all of them provide basically the same service like is and you'll be competing with helium in a sense here uh not I don't intend to do it in the US so helium when I say helium has two components one helium the network which is this network of hotspots that exists in the US um and that Network supports the helium mvno which is helium mobile so when you as a user go helium plan there's the two components right you're you're buying the plan I think it's 20 bucks unlimited data so no different than like perhaps a plan that 18 like T-Mobile or Sprint or Verizon might be able to offer you um and then like then

they're using the the helium Network to offload some of that data uh initially of course they work with T-Mobile because you need to buy that data like if if you're users are in you know going anywhere in the US like initially helium the network didn't have hotspots everywhere in the US and by the way no Telco has like full coverage of a particular territory they'll rely on other infrastructure providers to buy data so like if you Jason are like traveling from like imagine you're crossing the US from like La all the way to New York as you're driving you don't lose cell phone coverage most of the time um you have a contract with I don't know AT&T or Verizon that doesn't mean that AT&T and Verizon as you roam or as

you go through that Journey that they'll they'll have like you know cell your Towers there to like support you know your um coverage they'll use partners then and there to offload that data to like you know be able to service you the customer you never see that happening on the back end but that's what's exciting here which is helium now the network has got to a point where it has a lot of coverage in the US and density of these and that has allowed it to offload more and more data to the network like the mvno offloading data to the network um and there's a big difference in the price if you're an MBO like mint or boost you're probably paying a buck 50 or two bucks per gigabyte if you're

offloading to helium the network you're paying 50 cents it's fixed and so that's a big spread right yeah yeah that's what makes helium heling by the way 100% um sorry got I got a little distracted I I actually I'm looking at uh the top top 20 mvnos by revenue and by valuation um yeah yeah it's interesting so you'll need I mean you'll need even the 15th biggest one Ultra Mobile or US Mobile or Ting mobile these things are doing like 300 400 500 million of Revenue um and what's the valuation like two two times Revenue

maybe one one for a crappy one well well let's do the math if it's doing 100 million of Revenue and they have you know a 10 million like it's a 10 roughly 10% ebit margin business and I think it you can think of it per subscriber um or just e multiple basis but yeah that's like a 40 million dollar deal call it 50 million like a little under one maybe between depends on a few things but it's roughly like onetime Revenue probably is maybe correct a lot of the comps I've seen are I think like 100 let's see here Min mint mobile estimated Revenue 1.8 and they s just sold for 1.4 it looks

like yeah so I have this comp set here I'll tell you I'm opening the model here do you have do you have Bankers you're working with uh I did no we're doing diligence but we there's a sell like there are Bankers on the other side that are selling this business um but yeah the for instance mintmobile if you look at all the transactions here it's roughly like uh like I'm looking at Boost that got acquired in 2020 they had like eight million subscribers that was like a 1.3 billion acquisition uh Verizon bought another um mvno for like 6.5 billion they had 21

million Subs um the the in the us it's a bit different than in Latin America but like in the US those comps are like per subscriber anywhere between 100 to 300 dollars per subscriber so you can think of it as like how much am I paying for subscriber I see yeah yeah but but the the the caveat there is a lot of these mvnos in the US they're subscribers in a place like Mexico Brazil Argentina they're not subscribers they are you you will buy an mvno that is not or that is not us focused no absolutely not no no no no that's that's helium territory that's fine I'm not interested in doing in the US um I'm more interested in a different market like in Latin America

the multiple is lower in those businesses because there's not subscribers they are technically users the arpo of that user is lower because a lot of them can't afford a subscription they they rather do um payy go so they will Top up data they'll pay you know they'll consume some data and they have to pay an installments like they're not subscribers the multiple on of subscribers higher because it's predictable Revenue um it's like recurring versus reoccurring so that's what makes it exciting because you can buy that business for a lower multiple per user um these businesses in in these places trade out a lower multiple

and let me walk through the exercise quickly here which is say that the arpo of a user in an mvn know in the US is like like 20 25 bucks per month because that's what the the data plan costs in a place like Mexico it's like four bucks because it's on a blended basis right yeah uh where do you think that arpo goes when you offer that customer not just Mobile plan but the ability to basically turn their phone into a bank meaning a checking and money market account with stable coins yeah and then everything else yeah you're buying them you're buying them at a valuation based on the $4 arpo and

you're bring the arpo up to maybe not 20 but eight or 10 or 12 or 15 yeah because you're their mobile Rider and bank at the same time geod net is a firstof its- kind dpin protocol that's revolutionizing satellite navigation Services they're actively generating onchain Revenue that's growing 500% year-over-year by providing Precision location services that are 100 times more accurate than standard GPS on Empire we always talk about finding how crypto can power completely new business models and they're a perfect example of this they're already trusted by over 30 Enterprise customers across Industries

including Automotive agriculture construction and even robotics the network is powered by its native token GE EOD and easily mined with their satellite Miner by setting up a base station you can get involved with this uh groundbreaking web 3 ecosystem learn more by heading over to geod net.com or just by hitting the link in the description of today's episode today's episode is brought to you by uni chain the layer 2 designed to be the home for Defi and cross chain liquidity with up to 95% lower fees than ethereum and launching with 1 second block times uni chain is the L2 purposely built for defi over 80 apps infrastructure providers

are already building on uni chain including coinbase Circle Unis Swap and many more so users can seamlessly interact with the largest centralized exchanges lending protocols and stable coins from day one the uni chain validation network is coming soon which will allow anyone to run a node and verify blocks so how Okay bunch of questions off of this how do you think about the um like it's not upsell is not the right word but it's um like the things that you can provide based on the businesses that you buy and bring on chain like let's say okay so you're gonna buy an mvno it sounds like so you buy that then your then your second thing is um you

know insert company XYZ and can you give the mvno subscriber benefits to company xyz's thing because they're on the same chain 100% yeah I mean the um a lot of this activity is um you there's a core service that every business that we will look to acquire uh the common denominator is all of them can be offered tokenized dollars at least at minimum like they will all want access to tokenized dollars they just don't have the ability to do it easily yet so if we nail like the the the core INF for here is a seamless on andof ramp and a seamless

experience to get on and and be offered um and be their Bank essentially and then what happens after that is you know of course there's a native set of apps that are deployed on the Chain there's a whole set of services that are offered um yeah that's really the Playbook like uh there's many other businesses that I've looked at that are interesting um but I think the focus for now is doing it extremely right uh be a massive success for this first MBO um prove out that story and then Nothing Stops you from then going and buying that list that you saw it's very fragmented many more mvnos so even if I just up there you can become the largest Telecom and

fintech in Latin America or in the world then you're powering settling on your all right so what uh what do you think the cost of this mvno will be what's the what's the Enterprise Value here uh well I would would be in the couple hundred million dollar so do you have to raise let's call it 250 do you have to go raise 250 or can you raise less and maybe hope that the token goes up and you're using that or you raise way more or how how do you think about the funding to support this yeah it's totally funded offchain for now in this first transaction totally funded offchain yeah yeah it's a it's a separate

SPV oh interesting okay why is that with checken like you don't have treasur you know yeah I don't have the ability to to just you know manufacture out of thin air so will you do just I I guess actually that structure could make sense not even for just the first one but maybe the first couple yeah yeah there's a lot of economic interest um you can think of if you have um like the chain itself no different than any other L1 or L2 that exists out there from uh Native deployment of apps economic activity crypto donative activity all of that services that exist in pretty much any chain at this point will have will exist in the inverting chain but um acquiring

these businesses is separate uh for now at least it has to we don't have permanent are you doing that all with your own money or are you raising for each SPV uh no raising for that SPV for sure nice nice okay so if like um that deal on a standalone basis is very compelling I think like a lot of the DAT I've looked at and that the play like it's it's quite compelling I think um so I'm investing my own money yeah this was the original business this was the original idea was just go buy these businesses and do these kind of things yeah yeah that that deal like if I go pitch it to a large private Equity Fund that has vastly more resources which is the intent here is like

Leverage partner with a large private Equity Fund that has an interest in crypto but also really specialized I looked at like there's a number of private Equity firms that have acquired mvnos you go and talk to one of them you say listen let's do this this is the added Playbook that you might have not considered this whole trans like helium hot spots kind of thing and they're like some of them are like skeptical dubious don't really but I walk them through it and they're like okay this could be really interesting and so I'm in discussions with a number of those uh funds why because I'd rather leverage their internal research like i' I'd rather partner with them a they have vastly more capital and B they have like Ops

teams organizations that we can really leverage to go to market faster like you do this acquisition um us focusing really on the crypto Playbook they focusing on some of the other stuff um and once you do that um then then yeah you know I think for them that type of transaction is actually quite small okay billion doll funds and you for them is of course then saying well at that point that conversation goes like well can we kind of invest in the chain if we're going to you know Anor them the inversion chain is there a possibility to invest in in in in that and then that's how producing a very strong alignment

between the inversion chain and whoever is helping me acquire these businesses is important of course right yeah you have a lead for inversion chain yet yes you got the lead right yeah okay are you how much I don't know how much you can tell us but how much are you going to raise and what like what's the valuation will you will you open will you do something on Echo like will it be open to everyone will it be selective like I don't know how much you've can share uh I won't share yet who the lead is I will tell you um and I hope people can reference what I'm seeing now when we announce um it's been very rewarding uh being on the other side and going through the Journey of talking to many

funds uh very different actually like this particular fund I've had a long St like I know them very well what what's very different just uh they truly like they felt like truly like a partner I see I see they made me feel like they will leverage like a lot of the resources they're bringing to the table like I need Partners I don't need the capital you there's a lot of people that can provide you the capital it's really they're they were the most thoughtful in terms of the questions that they were asking me um and at some point I said guys I don't know the answer to like nine out of 10 of these questions um if I were in your shoes you either believe in the strategy that I

just described in the Grant in in the in how we're going to do it um but they're very thoughtful in their questions in their diligence process and they made me feel like they could really enhance the areas that I'm not good at you know I need help on hiring I need help um as a good sounding board I'm both the allocating of resources but also technical components of going through an RFP of selecting the best info provider um they're very thoughtful so like they have those two sides of the house very very well it's hard to find that in a crypto fund um and they're very aggressive like they're like in their like I sent them the material said hey I've known you for a long time take a

look let me know if that's interesting within 24 hours I was talking to three members of their investment team and I'd talk to them like constantly other funds I would send them that and they're just more followers they want to see other people how they respond who's the lead and they were just like that was not even in their it it didn't even compute in probably how they thought about it and they were very so it's been very rewarding um there's of course how much were you guys raised Sante uh I'd rather not disclose for now all right that's fine but I'm very focused on bringing very strategic Capital um to that raise um

I've of course paying attention to what is happening in Eko um and I like what's going on there I like I'm an investor in Mega E I saw how they did that I think it's very encouraging um so I'll just leave it at that cool nice yeah we need a we need Echo an Empire group on Echo is what we you need to start a Syndicate and then your your first deal needs to be for inversion it can't be in my Syndicate but yeah got this great deal to show you all that I found yeah um but no look it's uh it's been a good journey um I'm very excited obviously I I I spoke with the lead and said hey should we should I be more

public about the fact that it's going to be a chain like I really my main priority is building an organization they're like yeah just get it out like it's a chain you're looking for CTO chief of staff there are other roles by the way that I'm looking at higher these are the first two most important um so I that was just good um so very excited I mean I think um seeing the response and the reception to it was very encouraging like I'm incredibly fired up yeah uh last two questions and we can move on is um I know you spent a lot of time on tokenomics stuff when you were at parfi how do you is there anything interesting that you're thinking about with the tokenomics here yeah uh not a fixed Supply um I think it's just based on on demand and and like if you really want

like I want to become the largest chain full stop and and I think that requires not a fixed Supply um you know and and uh if you truly see a path towards onboarding a billion users plus like they there will the token is very essential here to um you know reward maybe Capital providers that are acquiring businesses and bring them on chain um like like basically industrial yield like yield farming at an industrial scale um and yeah I think the fix Supply is sort of a a um utility drives value not scarcity and the scar I understand why Bitcoin has a fixed cap of 21 million but that should not apply to other businesses and

it should be like elastic it should be based on supply and demand and that's very much top of mind um and how we reward you know the users that and the investors like in in these bit in these spvs for instance um is important I've thought a lot about governance I've thought a lot about what has not worked in crypto and sort of the Dow structure and um you know it's not necessarily tokenomics per se but um but yeah I think um the direction and from a product standpoint needs to be quite opinionated quite focused um when yeah when you were just doing a fund you were you got an office in New

York now that you're doing a chain can you still do this out of the US in in New York or what are the how do you think about that uh great question um I don't have a perfect answer to that yet yeah but I'm very focused on finding the best talent wherever they may be and if they I suspect there would be clusters of people and that New York is you know and there's still the bit license right that has not gone away um so can you build there in a perfect world Ideal World there's a lot of talent in New York um that I'd love to tap into um there's a lot of talent in San Francisco as there

is talent in London and other places My Philosophy is I want to hire the best and I care about out I think it's important to have like you guys have an office I think it's important to have if you're not going to have like an office out of the gate at least if people are distributed at least bring the team together constantly to really build the right um organization I think that's necessary but I do appreciate um you know there's a lot of talent yeah that exists in other places and so but yeah over time I would love to love to have an office I mean in in um in many different places including new New York earlier in today's episode I mentioned Ledger latest products the

stacks and flex and I wanted to take a few seconds to tell you more about them these wallets feature the world's first secure touch screens which don't just simplify your digital transactions but also keep them extremely safe these wallets are virtually impenetrable to online attacks because they store your private key in a secure offline chip you can manage more than 5,500 tokens and install up to 100 apps choose the most trusted name in Hardware wallets and take control of your digital Security today at ledger.com or hit the link in the description of today's episode to check out their latest wallets hey everyone Jason here wanted to uh just take a quick break and highlight

everything that's been going on in the mantle ecosystem in just one year mantle has seen its tvl surge by over 1,100% now reaching 1.69 billion ion dollar that's just such a crazy amount to think about more than 225 protocols have made mantle their home while the platforms Eco fund has invested $38.5 million in 51 pioneering projects through strategic Partnerships with bybit including MNT as collateral supporting Athena to scale and the first ethereum L2 to integrate Ono Finance they just continue to be on the bleeding edge of l2s be sure to stay up to date with what's going going on by giving

them a follow on X at ZX manle special thanks to the incredible mantle team for sponsoring today's episode AO the hyperparallel computer is here a decentralized supercomputer built on top of rwe's permanent data storage AO offers infinite parallel processing and leverages web infrastructure HTTP for unprecedented scalability addressing limitations of existing blockchains AO smart contracts support large programs including llms and can execute autonomously enabling new classes of decentralized applications utilizing tees for secure computations and features a 100% Fair token distribution to R weave holders and Bridge depositors

emphasizing Community ownership thanks to rwe for making today's episode possible you can find out more by clicking the link in the show notes all right last question for you then we can move on is um so I think who listens to Empire saw you get very I I I I now know you well enough you're a very obsessive person when you see some like you get you get very like hooked on something and I think we saw you get pretty I mean for the right reason in hindsight get pretty hooked on salana right and be you know you're really shouting louder than most felt comfortable shouting about salana and you know in hindsight you were right about it will uh will Avalanche be the new thing that you're shouting

about I guess it's actually probably inversion is the new thing you're shouting about but does does Avalanche kind of take away some of the Mind share from salana in your in your mind um well they're coming from Far Behind far behind uh I'd be ly I mean we you just go listen to that episode we recorded on predictions I didn't have Avalanche in in in my radar yeah you did um will it steal M share I don't like to think in these terms I think it's a very much a win-win like there is a place time to like what's happening in Sal is incredibly encouraging and what happened with the Trump over the weekend we've talked about it at length here it's I don't

want to ever substract from what is happening in that ecosystem like there is a lot of really good stuff happening there in ethereum and other places on a relative basis the the Mind Train crypto is this size you know there's there's only so many active users on chain it's a very small community still I'm just focus on building the best BD muscle to get to the next 100 200 500 million users on chain I think if we do that that question becomes irrelevant because everyone wins some more than others I would I I again in the same way that I think of why is salana trading at a third of ethereum's valuation it didn't make sense still

doesn't make sense right similarly I think you can because everything is on a relative basis I I would I would concede and I definitely believe that from my perspective thinking about where I want to build thinking about what Avalanche offers is very compelling I think ultimately every application that gets mainstream success will want its own chain as is every private Equity Fund eventually wants permanent Capital they don't want to be tied to having to tap into raise funds constantly you saw this I saw it firsthand KKR Apollo the largest private Equity Funds are public because the dream in endstate is

becoming a permanent Capital vehicle yeah and so um way back in the day it was very interested in Cosmos I think that architecture that setup was very interesting it had its issues um I think of avalanche as a better architecture and implementation of that with a very strong BD team and so I think it's overlooked for sure yeah um but I I think um what's been most I'd say like of course I'm going to be evangelizing of course my role is to make sure that inversion like I want to become the the largest chain full stop so does if are you g to perceive me as a

threat I I don't know my focus here is I'll bring in more users than we've seen ever and a user that has never existed on chain I think if I do that well if you've built a good product if You' built a good service it will be discovered you know what I mean and so that for me is just I don't like the thing in in scarcity terms and so I think there's I've always believed in a multi-chain world yeah sweet man I love it let me just say that I love it it uh I actually I think hasb quote tweeted and and said something along something along the lines of like we need the ambition back in this industry or like need the ho like and that that was that when I saw you tweet this like and just you know

I've been you've been kind enough to like sh share all of this with me over the like since you've kind of started it and like the thing that is um that I love is it's just bringing a very renewed sense of optimism and vision and ambition uh to the industry and I and I like it and I think the space needs it right now and um you know if you remember last week I was like yeah you know I went to this hockey game with Yan and he was asking me what's interesting and I was like I don't really know I mean like that that was a horrible take that was just I was like that that was just maybe I was feeling a little gray that day but like you know since we actually recorded that podcast last week like this is probably my like very

renewed sense of like optimism and like dream and ambition and I really think that um I mean there's there's other things that I wanted to talk about in this episode too but we you know we can either cut it or keep talking about it but like there's so much that's interesting like Olaf had such a good thread I think on uh tokens and actually like social media algorithms kind of becoming like Capital markets I think Vance had a great thread on like Internet Capital markets and what's about to happen I had this dinner last night with this guy ex Goldman web 2 giant he's launching a company it's like uh and he's do it's not a crypto company but he's doing it all on chain but he but he's not but it's not a crypto company and so I'm like wow like we are on the precipice of everything we've

been building for and um anyways I'm just I'm rooting for you so it's cool to see thank you man look look I'm I'm uh this is this is a forever project for me like there is there is just it's there infinite possibilities here if done correctly you never stop but yeah it's it's it's so encouraging like uh there was um like Robin Hood Vlad had a very interesting in their earnings call I think he talked a lot about continues to talk more and more about crypto and the efficiency that he's been able to capture in his business you see newbank and the transcript um and how they're talking about crypto and leveraging that that's the end state of this technology it's like we don't lead with it's like the dot it's like no like that went away

in every business just use the internet like crypto it's like um it just becomes that technology that is so embedded in these businesses and that's the most exciting thing like four years ago I couldn't have told you that but you're already seeing it with with other businesses that are waking up to this and um did the regulatory 180 have to do uh played a part in that that absolutely but the the great part about all of this is that you know for the better part of a decade there has been very very good infrastructure and rails that have been set in place to support um the next wave of of user adoption and that's very encouraging across multiple fronts

across many different teams and chains and so that's um that's really probably the most encouraging thing that we are as an industry like it's it's a pivotal moment but I do think that there is a sense of urgency that I have yeah uh and and that's really what is very um in this process like I don't think many people appreciate that because you know token goes up and you're like you know like kind of become a bit more complacent yeah um but you know I think in everyone in their crypto Journey eventually opens a door and sees the future and and you can't it's it's like you use a stable coin you use a and you send money via stable when you're like

yeah I never want to do wire transfer yeah yeah anyways man I'm I'm rooting for you there's um there's actually an interesting thing that happened this week that um there's this idea that I'm like starting to get pretty obsessed with which was the idea at the beginning of the year the one of my predictions was all these companies that are just like normal Equity companies are going to launch tokens you remember that and I think you're just starting to see the writing on the wall that this is going to happen it's like okay okay Schwab this might not seem related to the prediction but Schwab is here's the news Schwab is expanding retail trading on stocks and ETFs to 24 hours five days a week right so instead of being you know 9 to5 or 9 to four uh 24 hours five days

a week trafi is slowly moving towards defy hours this is Nate from uh president of ETF store he said you may not like it but Trad F fight slowly moving towards defy hours false Securities tokenization the longer term end State and I just think that like I every week I just see things that show me that Equity is going to eventually just get tokenized and if you think about actually the public markets as a product they're pretty good product right but they haven't really been innovated upon in years and mo like doing what Schwab is doing is like you know moving them to all day is good but I think the 10x Improvement here is just

moving it on chain and um I think it was Alex from nanson who I think he had a just a good oneliner summarized it pretty nicely he saidit seems Within Reach that we could see tokenized IPOs within the next few years company shares will live on chain and um I'm not sure if I'm supposed to share this but I will but you have all these like VCS trying to get blockworks to go raise a series B and you know trying to get us to raise and stuff like that we we don't really need to cuz we're profitable but you know we've been having some of those conversations um not not actually trying to raise I just want to be very clear about that but um just seeing like what what's out there in the market and talking to some of

these folks and they just you know it's like when I think about it it's like does an equity raise would an equity raise make sense would a token raise make sense it's like what actually makes sense here is to tokenize the equity and and like I don't know I just think like the onchain tokens it's more liquid it's more frictionless or I you know less frictionless ven uh less uh more frictionless venues to trade it just makes a lot of sense when you think now I don't think the industry is actually fully ready for it because like security tokens are a meme all this stuff like someone's got to be early and someone's just got to take the risk and

um remember that you remember that friction is that R slide in my in my deck yeah yeah good slide there's one there's one piece so left side right side like what is crypto solve you have for your business and I remember the first conversation we had when when I had the opportunity to invest in that raise in that round you did with with tent I didn't think it was tent the framework guys and like we're sitting here so want to prod more Lang and it's like you have now social media and just media companies the percentage of user generated content has gone up dramatically but the ownership and the monetization of of that is hasn't

reflected the importance of user generated content um and I think that will change um in the same way like once you have the possibility to like Community ownership I know is may sound like a fluffy term but it's very real like like creators and if if a user is generating valuable content that percentage that is shared back to that Creator is is disproportionately small and I think will change dramatically over time whether that's YouTube 100 100% even journalists right like like when you think about like what is maybe thinking a lot but I do go back to that first conversation we had it's like you

guys have branched out as a what it feels like the core principles of what a media company should be which is intelle like journalist Independence and Report in in an industry and then captured others venue like once you have that then you've expanded in the data and you can really continue to build on that moat but like thinking here well you know I don't know what your cap table looks like but if you have a token you perhaps may allow journalists to have greater skin in the game well so this is um this you know I sent this tweet out in December and I said said my dream is to make block Works a talent

destination find Talent early build Brands around them and create incentives to retain them right and talent for us is anyone who creates content it's podcasters newsletter writers it's out it's external hosts right like you and mert and Jonah and AI it's reporters it's researchers and I said like the bar stol of crypto right not easy but insanely valuable if you pull it off because this is this is what the future of media looks like it's it's there there's no space in the market anymore for one single brand like if blockworks just tried to scale as just blockworks like there's just one brand we would fail but that's why we have right light speed it's based around the salon Community like XX research the research Community like Empire I think of this is

kind of for like Builders and like you're everyday crypto person and so it's B all of our content is based around these um yeah these like strong Niche kind of cult following communities and uh if you can think about better ways to incentivize the creators of those things yeah it's interesting yeah absolutely it's like no different than it's just you want to build the best organization with the best talent you never want to give that Talent a reason to leave and by creating more skin in the game then you just you just focus on building the best organization and I think you can do that a token like you can do that with a token better than any other type of structure I think and the value cap for them and for you is higher and that's why going back to this discussion of I think you want to own

that as much as possible and and I'm of the mind that breakout applications and breakout products will have their own chain oh so I forgot to ask this someone a few people someone in the Empire Telegram and then janah was asking on Twitter it's like okay um if you need your own chain who who who else then needs their own chain is it that does everyone get their own chain is it if you get big enough you want your own chain I'm curious how you think about that eventually if you get big enough you want your own chain now I think that building a chain from scratch is um not something that I think people will do but I do think that like the offering of avalan is kind of very out

of the box and you can like it's a difference between fully like from the ground up to just customizing things out of the box and the customization elements that Avalanche provides are interesting enough because what you want to do is go to market faster you don't want to build from scratch I appreciate like that era of like prior cycle it's like the 0o to one like of salana that was very much 0 to one and you had these other high throughput chains 0 to one but then the architecture of something like Avalanche is very much like let's have your you can have your own chain but rely on a lot of infrastructure on the main chain and it's like that web of chains uh sort of like concentric like just a network of chains um versus like

a stack of L1 L2 L3 L4 and that I think is fundamentally a better architecture um yeah I I do think that every major breakthrough application has their own chain and then of course what's really encouraging is the interop component is um essential um kind of depends on the use case um I I don't think that like there there I could see some areas where you might just want to deploy on a chain where it has a lot of applications and services but if you want to offer perhaps a very robust offering I think you have your own chain like off for instance yeah um going back to the equity and token conversation we so the way that it exists in the industry right

now is that you actually raise with a with with an equity round but all the investors are kind of like yeah the equity doesn't really matter and then there's also a token right you've got this like I don't know there's a ratio of the FTV to the to the equity do you think eventually we'll just like not do you think because I I I feel pretty strongly this will eventually happen but when do you think we'll just get one and there will okay so here let me put real things around this so blockworks right blockworks has Equity we've got a cap table right you're you're an equity holder if I'm not by the way makes it sound like we're launching a token we're not launching a token but if we launched a token would you convert the equity the thing that actually makes sense is to convert the

equity into the token but I don't think anyone's had the balls in the industry to do that yet so they end up just launching a token and they keep their current Equity stack I'm curious just how you think about that yeah I've always felt that the value acres to the Token um now in the case of like like Unis swop is a good example right they had they have the unique token but then that Labs entity like the the organization the engineering organization that the built and the protocol now has the chain and has spun up other prod projects and so you know if you're a uni token holder do you you're not necessarily benefiting from that right but I think a lot of projects have

like what is it like pangu like that entity that you have equity and I'm not an investor but I'm just I think I Luca mentioned it but like if you're an investor in that e company you had you were kind of you had exposure to the pangu airdrop you maybe had exposure to the treasury that they had like they might own a bunch of nfts right uh pudy pins um as a token holder you didn't have like all the all the pl all the like uh stuff that is sold like the pudgy Penguins the fluffy animals that are sold in Walmart for instance all

that revenues coming into the equity right the the the the traditional company so to speak the token holder has not benefited from that directly but I think your Point's a good one which is in a world where we we've just been constrained and how we can design and think about token design and that's perhaps one of the more exciting things to your point will probably open up as we get more clarity right that we are able to just collapse that because the question when you have like different tokens or different structures it's like let's make sure there's strong economic alignment between the company that is developing the protocol and the token that the protocol eventually has and then what happens if that entity ends up doing other projects like there's always

this like like I think inefficiency in trying to make sure that there's a strong alignment of interest but if you just like you don't think of Google like Google for instance a good example Google has so many different units and is exploring so many different projects you just have one thing like if you want to I get exposure to that you buy Google stock I think that's the way it should be yeah I agree with that I agree so anyways that I'm I'm excited for that and I think all the you're going to see like coinbase and black rock and Robin Hood and all these folks try to bring equities on chain you're gonna see equities launch tokens uh so so so coinbase they have base they have coin coin stock um I've read it through the

analysts like analysts of course are paying attention to base but like do you think do you think Bas ever has a token and what is that is there a I I think I think Brian I think they eventually tokenized coin base equity and move it onto base and base never has a token how's the token um and base I actually don't know I don't no I think I think I think Bas I actually don't know I think Bas will eventually get a token I that's see it's interesting because you don't want too many things that represent the value of your thing right it's what happened it's like one of e ethereum's downfalls it used to be like on bullish ethereum boom I buy eth

now it's like go on bullish ethereum okay do I buy optimism or arbitrum or ethereum or like do I spread that so you don't want to be like on bullish coinbase do I buy coin or base or right so I think um yeah I don't know here here's what I do think everyone's like all excited for these IPOs I don't think we're g to get as I don't think the IPO Market will be as hot as people think this year for crypto companies and it's G to force late stage private crypto companies to launch tokens and uh so I got I mean I I just think this prediction I had the I think it's going to be my prediction of the year I had I got dinner with one of the with the CEO of one of the you know raised at a I

don't want to give it what between three to 10 billion last cycle like PRI like you know kind of private SAS crypto companies um no no you know to no chain nothing like no need for a to and they're they're they're probably gonna launch a token and the reason he's like you just he's like that's just the exit in crypto like you're not all these companies he's like I don't think any of any of us are going public and I tend to agree with that actually um well I mean I think it's not just gonna apply to crypto companies I think it's just like the IPO Market yeah just a lot a lot are not going to get out yeah but look the I think it's the same reason why like uh I wasn't there but I was in New York while it was

happening the securitize day or like it was no not securitized it was the the Ando in conference and I think I've been hearing it from like why does Apollo a lot of these credit funds A lot of these institutions like Black Rock want to become come on chain is because it's just like a capital markets on steroids 247 365 Global and and like frictionless as much as possible right um I was like opening a bank account yesterday and it took me like I don't know under an hour which is very impressive um but then it was like no wait a minute like take zero to do it in crypto like wallet um and I think like a lot of

these traditional companies get once they realize wow we can all not only all the benefits of tokenizing stuff and the free movement of these and tracking and settlement and a lot of efficiency case I was just talking to a a really sharp team that is looking to like tap into and streamline like credit facilities uh they have they're very sharp very sophisticated I think came from Black Rock and and black stone and they said yeah like if we're able to prove this out like not only does it streamline all the Backus all the compliance all the settlement stuff that has a ton of cost but then the free flowing of these things in capital markets worldwide I mean it's just you're tapping into an audience that has not wants to invest in these products but hasn't

historically and I think it's just uh there's just so much pent up demand that exists in in crypto um yeah to buy these products so yeah like if you're a crypto company or maybe just a company in general like how far away are we from just skip the IPO just do an IPO on chain that's right yeah exactly so I think what is needed is the same data like the same SEC kind of like Edgar SEC disclosures the perspective stuff we need to standardize that uh in the same way that you have it in tral Market working on it my guy working on it can can we have block Works be that place where you capture all that info you register it and you in order to create a

market you need to have um fairness and disclosures and Market Integrity like you need to have the same information accessible to people like right now what comp crypto companies make announcements in Discord and Twitter and it's very convoluted like can we have one place one regist like one registry or regist one place of where it is just the home of public announcements and then it gets picked up by all the media companies and whatever but you need to have one venue where you submit this is the tokenomics this is the project this is the ownership for one source of Truth and I think if we pull that off I think we could see a line of sight into just this becoming quite literally the next NASDAQ the main capital markets for for yeah

for everything agreed agreed I think that's the pod that's the pod that's the Pod appreciate you guys listening hope you guys have a good Friday good Saturday good Sunday good weekend got some good UPS coming up all right thanks everyone for listening cheers folks hey everyone just wanted to give a quick thanks to today's title sponsor Geet by setting up a base station you can get involved with this groundbreaking web3 ecosystem learn more by heading over to geod net.com or just by hitting the link in the description of today's episode [Music]