Why retail still isn't in Bitcoin, with Natalie Brunell

Transcript

Bitcoin is the most secure computing network in the world. It has a 99.99% uptime and and and in a world where we're going to have many many vectors of these cyber attacks, we need America to be the most advanced. >> What's up everybody? It's L J Doucet here and welcome to the Milk Road Show, the daily crypto show that keeps hearing calls for Bitcoin all-time high as soon as the end of this year and is starting to maybe believe it. Today is April 24th, 2026. We are recording on April 23rd. We're up again. And although this may feel good and many of us are bullish short-term, my guest today is telling me that the bottom may not be in and that we're due for more pain before we finally get to those sweet all-time

highs that I just mentioned a second ago. Natalie Brunell, host of Coin Stories, author of Bitcoin is for everyone, is back on the show. Today's episode is brought to you by Faros, the layer one built for real fi, Consensus Miami, where the next cycle starts, and Nexo, earn interest, borrow, and trade crypto. Natalie, welcome back to the show. Hey, thanks for having me. Okay, so you were on here last time you were on, you were on with Jay, February 25th, uh February 20th, 2025. Also a very contentious time. We're dealing with a completely different issue of tariffs. Now we've got a war, we've got all this other stuff. Um and you are It sounds like you are firmly in the camp that there is more pain ahead. Tell me about that.

Well, look, I think I hope I'm wrong. Um I hope that we do see an all-time high this year, but I do I've I've been following a lot of the macro analysts who believe that there is more pain ahead because of some of the volatility we've just been seeing with the global conflicts, with supply chains. I think that what happened with the Iran war and the closure of the Strait of Hormuz has not all played out yet, especially in the markets. It hasn't all been priced in. So I think that that will eventually precipitate some kind of uh uh a crash in prices on the equity side and we know what happens with Bitcoin when there's a when there's trouble with the stock market. I know we've been hitting like all-time highs with the Nasdaq and S&P 500, but I think it's

giving some people a false sense of hope because there's so much broken underneath that. And so obviously Bitcoin being extremely liquid and a very very small market compared to these giant um giant asset classes, I do think that we may not have seen a bottom this year. And I know that's hard to believe, but you know, Pierre Rochard shared this amazing uh graph recently of all of the different bear markets placed on top of each other. And all of them lasted way longer than the one we're currently in. We're almost at about the halfway point. And if you compare those charts, it's like, oh no, there's there if if, you know, obviously

you you can't read too much into charts because they can be broken, but if if it follows the previous cycles and patterns with the with the bear markets that we've seen, we're not through it yet. We're about halfway. And some of my favorite analysts say that we're going to bottom in like Q3, Q4, anywhere in the 30s to 40s. So again, I know that some folks are like, absolutely not, we've hit the bottom, we're just going higher. And and that can certainly happen, but I'm a little bit more cautious. I definitely have some dry powder so that I can maybe deploy it when we hit a true bottom. Um but I could be wrong. Maybe we'll hit the bottom.

>> your sign What is your sign for a true bottom? Like what do you know? Cuz we've had like in the since I've been hosting this show, we've had two like apocalyptic liquidation days, man. We had 1010, we had February 5th. What is that Is that Is that what you're looking for? Just down to the 30s for Bitcoin? You know, I think a lot of it comes down to sentiment because I'll never forget the bottom of that FTX like crypto meltdown that we saw in 2022. And people who who were just long-time holders, right? They were getting scared and they're like, oh no. I I And so it's it's really about when people are basically capitulating. And I think we haven't really seen that. We

got a glimpse of it when we dipped into What What did we get to like the 50s, the high 50s or something? You started to see people break down, but I'm sorry, when people are still tweeting like, oh, everybody's let us hands. Um I don't think that the full fear aspect of the bear market has has has fallen in. >> [laughter] >> Here we go. Let's let's like I love pulling up the Fear & Greed Index. I think it's so funny. I didn't realize until you just said that. I just pulled it up now. I didn't realize it's at 46 today. That's insane. We spent all this time at like five or nine on last couple months. So we're there's some enthusiasm, but it doesn't mean we can't come back down cuz I think you were talking about, yeah, in the summer, four years ago almost exactly in that spring

summer when the Remember the video of they were chasing they're chasing FBF uh SBF through through the streets of like Panama or something like that. >> [laughter] >> Oh, yeah. I guess you're telling me that you we need it's not just price action. We need to feel like there's like a a severe threat, you know, to to what we're doing here. Yeah, I feel like you need you need folks to be really really scared. And um and telling you like you know, I sold my bags or I'm I'm I'm hedging. Uh and that's when maybe we'll we'll hit a bottom. But yeah, I don't I don't think so. I think we're still kind of in the midway point of the bear market.

Obviously we have a major buyer, right? Like Strategy is buying so many Bitcoins every single week um largely through their stretch product. So there's definitely a lot of momentum we have and we've had some amazing announcements recently with the Morgan Stanley launching its ETF being the most successful launch of its own history of ETFs. Um Charles Schwab is finally getting in and they have a huge client base. So if even a tiny portion of that allocates to Bitcoin, that that could provide some huge volumes. But um but I still think that there's more pain ahead, especially due to to the issues on the macro side that they're not going to be able to easily fix because we I

mean, a lot of us know the Fed is really backed into a corner and they don't want to stoke inflation. They're not ready to hit, you know, the money printer burr. But we've got massive issues and I think that the Strait of Hormuz closure will play out in markets in the next couple of weeks. As we're breaking down some trade ideas here on the show, I want you to imagine getting an alert the moment that we make an actual move because that's what you get now with Milk Road Pro, a real-time notification that tells you the second one of our analysts buy or sell anything. Check it out below. So So here's a question for you as somebody who's been I think you you've been doing your show for like five, six years now, right? So this is this is the second cycle in the life of your show.

Um How do you approach something, especially as somebody who's focused entirely on Bitcoin? How do you approach the idea that that Bitcoin is supposed to be like the hedge against all this stuff, right? Cuz that's that's the whole idea of of Bitcoin originally was that it's like, forget what people were how much bankers are destroying the economy, whatever's going on geopolitically, you're not safe in fiat, so we're going to make our own store of value. And yet you're also telling me that it's like, listen, when all the when all the equities go to Bitcoin will have to follow. Yeah, well, I think that that just speaks to the lack of education around Bitcoin still, right? That's why it sort of tends to trade like a high beta tech stock instead of what it actually is. Um a lot of people still don't recognize it for

its monetary proper properties. And to my earlier point, it's like the easiest thing to sell when a geopolitical conflict breaks out on a Saturday evening, you know, you're not going to sell your real estate, you can't sell your stocks because the market's not open. Um so you're probably going to sell your Bitcoin. Um but it has even though it's been bouncing around the 70s and we are in sort of the middle of this bear market, it has outperformed a lot of different assets. And BlackRock even put out a report that when there's some sort of like a geopolitical crisis in the six months following, Bitcoin tends to outperform other assets even if there's like an immediate flight to safety with um cash or gold, Bitcoin tends to outperform over those those next six months. So I think it's just a process, you know, every four years we get new

classes of folks that are adopting it, institutions. And I think that that will sort of start to dampen the volatility. And I don't think by the way that we're going to see the drawdowns of like 80% like we used to anymore. I'm not saying that all of a sudden we're going to go just to 50 where we're at. I think we've still got maybe the 60, 70% drawdowns in us before it closes down to 50 and lower and lower over the next decade. But I I I think it's just interesting to watch Bitcoin's evolution. And uh the one thing that's just been surprising to me, I guess, over the last year or so is everyone moving to gold over Bitcoin. Um gold's outperformance of Bitcoin. I think

Bitcoin is starting to climb back, but it's really interesting to see that as the dollar system really changes um globally and people recognize that the dollar may not serve as the global reserve asset going forward, that there is really this like step backwards with gold as a technology, right? Because when you think about it, especially if you're a Bitcoiner, you're moving back to a technology that is difficult to audit, difficult to transport, difficult to settle, expensive to do all those things. And and yet here we have Bitcoin, but people, you know, it's not big enough, I guess, to be recognized as as the digital gold that it really is.

How could you Gold is a sore spot for us, man. We had we had Peter Schiff on at one point just to dump on us, just make fun of us. I don't I didn't even know it was a crypto show until he started talking. Like, oh, you guys are a crypto show? We're like, yeah. And it was This was at like the peak. Gold is blasting past 5,000 and Bitcoin is in the 70 or something like that. It was a That's That's a sore spot. But you're absolutely right, right? And And that's a good perspective. Um And I think he can have his victory lap. I mean, I do think that gold will continue to outperform um for now. But yeah, it's funny because last year I was on stage with him and he was talking about how if he goes to a gold conference, there's like, you know,

2,000 people or whatever, and here we were with like 20,000 people in the crowd, and I'm like, yeah, you think? >> [laughter] >> People want Bitcoin. Oh, boy. I want to ask you another question, Natalie, just to, you know, cuz I we haven't we haven't chatted before, and maybe you discussed this with Jay last time. Are you exclusively a Bitcoiner? Yes. Yes. 100% yes. >> Why? There's nothing else you cuz you did you know, you you did spark my interest there when you said you can't trade some of the other stuff on weekends, which you kind of can now on hyperliquid, also a great crypto product, but I want to know what your why why the sole sole interest in Bitcoin and not anything else. Gosh, I mean, honestly, it comes down to the simple fact that before Bitcoin, I really didn't understand what money was,

and um and I and and how much I took for granted how how money works affects our lives, right? And if there if money can be controlled by a government or a group of people that can just expand the supply whenever they want to, that actually impacts all of us. It's a silent tax on us, and it erodes our purchasing power, and we're sort of on on this treadmill of just working harder and harder, and yet the purchasing power is decreasing at a faster rate. And so, that's why I think so many people feel left behind and frustrated, and we're all sort of incentivized to get into this game of speculating and gambling, and everyone has to be a stock trader in addition to their full-time job, which is so weird. It's like, why isn't your money enough?

And and and look, some if you love trading, I like that's cool and that's great, but I don't think that the average person wants to sit there and evaluate every single company and their valuations and listen to their, you know, quarterly earnings reports because it's like too much. It's too much information. I think they just want to save their money and have it at least preserve if not grow their purchasing power over time. And Bitcoin, I think, you know, takes us back to a more a more simple and more a way of having a a form of money that has some integrity and truth behind it, that no one can manipulate it, no one can expand the supply, no one can do something without our consent. And and I think that that that's transformative for us

globally, and I I think that the stories of, you know, Bitcoin used as really a human rights tool in in areas where they have very oppressive regimes and they have currency crises and inflation rates far higher than here, it's it's it's so needed. And so, nothing else provides that because nothing has the properties of Bitcoin, where it's truly scarce, it is actually verifiable, decentralized, consensus-based. Like, I just I think it's so special, and I think it's the best invention of at least the last century. Oh, wow.

What a Wait, wait, hold on. It wouldn't even be possible without the internet, Natalie. Can't say that. >> [laughter] >> Well, yeah, you're right. You're right. And it has we we build on top of advancements in technologies, right? So, but I just think I like it's the form of money that we really needed, and if we didn't like let's say we weren't connected by the internet, I would probably be a gold bug. I would say that okay, this has the best the second best properties, if you will. Um but because we are all connected in a digital world, and we're moving into the world of like digital intelligence and all these AIs, we need a form of money that isn't controlled by a state actor, and and again, whose supply can be increased. We need a form of digital hard money that all of us can verify, and that's

Bitcoin. Mhm. Mhm. [clears throat] Yeah, absolutely. Is this so I mean, we already kind of talked about, you know, the geopolitical hedge. Have [snorts] you bought into this idea, and we've seen it floated, and I've asked a few guests on this recently, I want to get your take. When the Strait of Hormuz was closed once again last week, it was there or a couple weeks ago, there was rumors that Iran would take payment only in Bitcoin. A few months ago when the conflict was starting, there was this idea that people wealthy people and or not so wealthy people were fleeing the region and converting whatever fiat they had into Bitcoin so they could easily access it anywhere else and not have to cross borders with, you know, suitcases full of money or whatever.

Is this is that I'm assuming that that hasn't necessarily played out the way we know or maybe we don't know, but is that is that something that you see as part of the future that as maybe geopolitical unrest grows or there are more conflicts that that that is kind of that one of the end games for Bitcoin is to be used as this kind of like um central or not central, but like kind of main store of value when when other things are uncertain. I mean, absolutely. Again, it goes back to its properties because Bitcoin is a form of money that you can't um issue sanctions on, you can't prevent someone from accessing the ledger. Um there's no one that is in control that can prevent your access and and participation in the network. It's truly open and free, and

and so, of course, it's going to be used by individuals for those very reasons. It's going to be used by nation-states for those reasons, especially when they need to where they're closed out of other of other banking systems. And I think that that is actually a feature, not a bug. Again, I I think that in a world where our financial system is so opaque, and it funnels into this one central actor that controls everything, it obviously makes sense that there are alternatives that have been built when that system is weaponized against people or nations or, you know, groups. And that's exactly what we've seen happen.

Um so, whether it's, you know, a country that's now going to accept Bitcoin to subvert the financial rails of the, you know, the traditional system, or or it's just like an individual that's in a country like you mentioned and needs to flee or needs to protect their wealth, it will be used as a as a key tool, especially as more and more people know about it. And I wrote some of these stories in my book, Bitcoin Is for Everyone, because again, globally, like to see the use cases in real time, they make you appreciate Bitcoin so much more. And it's not just other countries. I mean, I don't know if you saw the clip, but Admiral Admiral Paparo literally said that the US Navy is using Bitcoin as like a strategic technology,

that we're running a Bitcoin node. I mean, that's just fascinating. Like, did you expect that we would be saying something like that? Like, on a national level, we would be talking about Bitcoin as a tool for national security. It's just crazy to me, and I think we've got we're only at the starting gate of what this will be. Oh, Okay, let's pull it up. This is Bitcoin Magazine yesterday. A four-star military officer, Admiral Admiral Samuel Paparo, confirms the USA is running a Bitcoin node. We have a node on the Bitcoin network right now. We're doing a number of operational tests to secure and protect networks using the Bitcoin protocol. Yeah. So, wait, what would they use this for? What would the what would the Why would the military run a node?

Well, I think >> Curious. Like, what yeah. I think that there's uh several things that are happening at once. Um I mean, first of all, I recommend that everyone read Jason Lowry's work because we need like a proof-of-work consensus-based system. Literally, it is the most secure I think people don't appreciate Bitcoin is the most secure computing network in the world. It has a 99.99% uptime. And in in in a world where we're going to have many, many vectors of these cyberattacks, we need America to be the most advanced in this area. So, I think some of what he's talking about is actually just like the network's security. There is nothing less corruptible than Bitcoin. Um but then also, you know, I mean, he he didn't

mention this so much, but we we established a strategic Bitcoin reserve. And so, as a store of value, as something that in the future maybe to address our debt and provide our nation with the ability to finance what we actually want to finance, it's going to be so important on that side, too. So, like the network is really important, and also the store value asset is side is so important. And I just think it's fascinating that we're seeing people at these highest levels of power starting to speak so positively about Bitcoin. Like, we're learning there are these Bitcoiners, you know, hiding in in these all these different ranks from top to bottom. Um and so, I I think it's a sign of the times, and I I would love to hear more from him and his office because I hear there are a lot of Bitcoiners

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reserved [music] for loyalty program members. Get started at milkroad.com/nexo. Yeah, that's wild. Yeah, I had no idea. So, that's that's a very interesting angle I didn't really know about that they they're involved there and they're they're investing in the technology and operating [clears throat] it, too. I wonder there's must there must be so many use cases. I guess I would never really thought about the military use case or the military investment in in Bitcoin. That's a whole other bid, Natalie, that I never even considered. Okay, we always talk about the institutional bid. We hear about it all the time, but we never talk about the the military bid, I guess, is is a good way to approach it.

Maybe they'll be What if What if they're interested in other things though? What if they like Ethereum? Give me like the blue sky scenario in your opinion for Bitcoin, right? Because we're still we're we're we're very still talking very much in the weeds right now of day-to-day, month-to-month, even this year, but what's We have a lot of people come on the show and tell us, you know, Bitwise comes on, Matt comes on and tells us Bitcoin's going to go to a million or it's it's that's too conservative. He told us, I think just literally this past Monday he told us this it's too conservative a million. It's going to go more than that. But besides price, Natalie, what, you know, it seems like you have a really great take on kind of what Bitcoin will do, what how we can use it and and and how important it is.

What is that? Like give me like some tangible ideas of where we see [clears throat] Bitcoin in like 20 years, 30 years or or even what that timeline is. So, I'm going to again kind of separate out the store value from the medium of exchange cuz I think that they're on parallel but different paths. I almost I've said before that I think that there's almost going to be a merging of like east versus west because when you when you go to developing countries or you go to again these regimes where they're authoritarian, people are using Bitcoin not necessarily as like a a savings account because it's so hard for them to save, but really as that freedom technology to be able to transact without a way that like the government can stop you from from that transaction

and a way that they can like inflate the supply and inflate away your purchasing power. So, I think that use case is used more outside of the US, whereas obviously as you you've seen in our traditional financial system, everything's like, "Oh, your portfolio portfolio diversification." It's more of like saving for the future, having something that will boost your returns. Like we are the store of value story. And I think those stories will start to merge more and more. I think more businesses eventually will accept Bitcoin. They will be in I mean, they will want to have their own reserves and savings in Bitcoin. So, how are they going to get it from customers? They have to incentivize us to spend our Bitcoin cuz few people actually here want to spend their Bitcoin. So, they're going to say maybe, "Hey, we'll offer a

discount if you pay in Bitcoin or maybe we only offer certain things in Bitcoin." I saw in my old city where I used to live, LA, there are some apartment buildings that are already accepting Bitcoin for rent. And plus there are these technologies and rails that will happen where Bitcoin will sort of be in the background. Like you'll you'll pay in dollars, but it will convert on the other side automatically to Bitcoin, right? I think all of these forces are playing out and and they're growing in terms of their adoption. And and I think in the next 10 years, yeah, you can talk about the price. Obviously, the price is a reflection of the demand that will grow, but I think of it more as like I I think we're going to have a billion people using Bitcoin, whether they're holding it or using it on a daily basis or both.

We've still got some work to go when it comes to our government, you know, allowing for us to transact more freely with Bitcoin because we don't have a de minimis exemption right now. So, it's like really tedious to report every single time you use Bitcoin cuz technically it's like a sale, you have to report it in the cost basis. It's so tedious. So, I think soon we're we're going to have a de minimis exemption. And yeah, I mean, it's just I think it's going to grow. Yeah, I think it's going to a million, but I think I think the amount of people that will be using it will just grow exponentially and I can't wait for it.

How do stablecoins play into this, Natalie? Cuz I'm curious actually how that fits into your thesis because even what you're talking about there, you'll be doing transactions, takes it from fiat, converts it to Bitcoin and back and everything like that. Is that How do you see stablecoin adoption kind of fitting into this picture? Do you bucket that in with all the other, you know, stuff with all the other tokens or are they kind of in their own place? Well, I think that they're a little bit different. First of all, there's a component where obviously they have to be backed now through the Genius Act one to one with treasuries or cash. So, I think that there is an interesting angle there with providing demand for US treasuries. However, we haven't really seen these scale to the level that some people have been predicting, at least

not yet. Like the volumes on them have not been as impressive to me as some people have that thought they would be at this point. I've always been interested in this the stablecoin use overseas more because again, like people want to get out of their currencies that are that are failing and rapidly inflating and they want to get into the dollar and stablecoins have provided them an avenue to do that. And I think Bitcoin is sort of that next step cuz it is more of that like savings layer. So, if stablecoins are your checking account, Bitcoin's your savings account. So, I think that adoption and use will grow, but I always caveat, you know, letting people know that the stablecoins are ultimately privately issued. And to me like they're because they're centralized, they they perform and have

the same properties as the US dollar. The supply is increasing and they can monitor, you know, everything you're doing because again, it's like centrally issued and they really control it. So, they could potentially censor you as well if they want to. So, it's like very very different from Bitcoin and the Bitcoin network. But I do think that stablecoin usage will will increase. It's just I've never I've never spoken to any of my friends or anyone really in the US who uses stablecoins unless they're traveling internationally. Right, yeah. That makes sense. So, I guess you're saying in in in some places where they want to get away from their local currency that maybe having issues, they're going to go they're going to use stablecoins. But then everyone who's use who's on a US system is going to be like, "No, no, no, I'm I'm going to use

stablecoins to convert to Bitcoin." Or at least I'm just going to get I'm not even going to I'm going to skip that part. I'm just going to go straight to Bitcoin. So, you've got this kind of like reverse waterfall ascension to eventually get to Bitcoin, which is where even the people want to get into USD will eventually get there anyways. Yeah, and I mean, you know, I think two things are happening at once, too. One is that again, people don't want to spend their Bitcoin because it's appreciating in value. They want to spend their fiat currencies, which makes absolute sense. But you can you can spend your Bitcoin. Like you could use both for the for the same purposes. But also it's like you've seen the issues, I'm sure, with Washington DC not wanting companies to provide yield on stablecoin because that would disintermediate the banking

system. And so, I think that's also been interesting to watch play out because again, an American doesn't need really a stablecoin yet. However, if there was like a stablecoin that offered you a 5% yield, you might be like, "Okay, I would like to hold my dollars in that stablecoin." But I think it'll be interesting how this plays out cuz again, like the banks are the resistance right now. So. >> Yeah, of course. Let's flip back. Thank you for kind of painting that long-term picture for us. Um Let's flip back to current day, this year. We've had a few theories on the show telling us and and this is something that I guess was floated a couple months ago maybe when when things were getting really bad, that maybe we

had been in a bear market since a year ago, since your last appearance, around then, and largely with the idea that that ETFs and especially DATs had been propping up the prices and that actually we were in a technical bear market if you remove that bid. Natalie, I guess my my question for you is zooming out, like what do you think the effect has been from ETFs, DAT, and that large like institutional move into Bitcoin? And and this is specifically a price price question. Well, I think a lot of people were disappointed that we didn't have that sort of blow-off top that we were hoping for and many were forecasting, right? Like over 200k.

It was kind of lackluster. Just just sort of descending from the 120 mark and all of a sudden we're in a bear market. I think it's interesting the question that you raised because there has been such a massive institutional bid behind Bitcoin. And look, I actually think that ETFs are a great on-ramp, especially for people who are new. Like if that's going to get them to start to pay attention to Bitcoin because they bought the ETF in their retirement portfolio and now they're like, "Oh, this is interesting. It's helping my portfolio really outperform." And then maybe they can learn about Bitcoin and then eventually move to buying spot Bitcoin, taking self-custody, all that. I think it's all a journey, right? Cuz I remember starting in Bitcoin and I was like, "I'm not ready for side is important for for things that

that really matter in society, right? Like pension funds. Like these these massive pension funds and all the the institutions that have been sitting there with like destroy like destroyed balance sheets because they're sitting in treasuries or underperforming assets. It's like, "No, move to Bitcoin." And so, now pension funds because of these vehicles can start investing in Bitcoin. You know, putting it on the balance sheet. I mean, I don't know why it's so controversial to people that corporations would buy Bitcoin. There are [snorts] millions of corporations around My company is a corporation. Is it so bad that I have Bitcoin? I think people just get upset when there are these the big corporations, but why? I mean, Bitcoin introduces a system

of rules and consequences and it's a merit-based system. So, I think it would make all of our corporations better. Instead of depending on just, you know, money printing, propping up every single market and every single company, it would actually be based on what these companies are doing, the value they're providing, their actual earnings. I feel like there's such a detachment from reality on what companies are actually worth today because it's all it's just all propped up by the money printer machine. So, I I would love for every company to be a Bitcoin company and then let, you know, let the market decide if it has merit or not and what what services it provides the world and people. But I I will say it's been disappointing that the public has just not been as excited about Bitcoin in

this last cycle. Ever since the crypto market the the crypto blowout in 2022, that retail side has not been there. I've talked about it on my show with analysts like Lyn Alden. It's like, "Where is retail?" And I think that we really need something like the 120 wasn't enough for them. They need They need a FOMO at like 200, 300k and then they'll be they'll be coming back in in droves. I do think it'll happen, but that's the only thing that's sad about the last um, the last cycle, so to speak, is just institution-wise it's been great, but like where where where's retail? Wall Street is here. The White House is here.

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They're they're deep in the AI trenches. That's where they've been at. They've been giving these they're working on companies that have the same valuations as all of Bitcoin, if not more. That's where they're and and hoping they're good those companies are going to triple from here. Well, and it's dangerous, right? Because a lot of these AI companies took on so much debt and and it's it's folks really speculating about things that we don't we don't know how it's going to play out. So, it can be a little risky. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Yeah, [clears throat] we talk we have a whole other AI show where we discuss that. Anybody wants to learn more about that, you can check out Milk Road AI uh, where we we talk about those companies. Now, wait, hold on. Natalie, are you an AI user? I'm assuming I'm assuming everybody's an AI user of some

kind. Um, but I'm assuming you must be, yeah, of course. Yes, my team and I use as many of the AI tools as we can. I've experimented with several several of the platforms. I want to be better at it, you know, I think that [clears throat] I think that being good at AI is going to be key in the in the future. Um, and I'm really looking out for better and more video tools because obviously my work uh, is so media and production-heavy that any tools that simplify that process in an in an effective way uh, is something that's really um, you know, valuable to me. So, I'm definitely on the on the hunt for some some more video tools for for AI. It's just the the the skill level of the artificial

intelligence platforms that I've been using is not at the level I need it to be. >> [laughter] >> I agree. I agree with that. He also uh, runs uh, runs some content and stuff over here. Um, I want to switch back right I want to wrap this up, but um, I do want to ask you about retail. We joked about AI a little bit. What you're telling me that you think that retail's going to pile back in once we are at 3x this level? I do. I don't know why I feel this way, but I've always felt that there was going to be an inflection point and um, and I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet because again, going back to how transformative it was for me to learn about Bitcoin, like it caused me to see the whole world in a different way and how all of our interactions are

related in some way to money, ultimately, and how economic empowerment has also impacted like the fabric of society, how we treat one another, the value that we see or don't see, the care that we see in a community. And and I just think that there's going to be this like tidal wave moment where enough people get it that they're all kind of rushing for it at once. And that will be a very exciting time. And people say, you know, gradually then suddenly. And we have seen in different network growth patterns, even with the internet, right?

I feel like there was this time period where it's like the internet, like what is it? No one's going to be using this, no one's going to be, you know, talking globally on their phones or sitting on their screens all day or conducting all their business or communication on it. And then bam, it was like everybody. The whole world was on the internet. And I think that Bitcoin's going to be the same way at some point. We just haven't we just haven't reached that event horizon just yet. Mhm. Okay. I like that. That's a good that's a good way to to wrap it up uh, Natalie. And actually, you know what? Before I I never do this, but I I do have to give you kudos to your background. So, I'm just going to give you the full screen. Guys, one podcaster to another, you've got a great setup, a

nice fern there. I know you joked about it being the the Zach Galifianakis show, but that's awesome. Great great background. So, so kudos to you. I need I definitely need something back here in this like dark cold room I'm in. So, I'll take some tips from that. But Natalie, great to chat with you. Thank you for all the insight and the the optimism as well, despite there being another potential bottom coming. Clearly, things are are are bright for the future. I'm actually really optimistic. I would love for Bitcoin to drop to 30k cuz I've got some >> [laughter] >> cash ready to deploy for those very moments. Um, this is this is a huge opportunity for people. I like to try to remind them. I know everyone's like, "Oh my god, all-time high." and they want to pile in. That's not the time to be

buying Bitcoin. It's it's when it's when it has pulled back. It's when it's in these moments where everybody's starting to get scared, but I'm telling you, I don't think people got scared enough in October. I just don't. I think we're going lower. >> [laughter] >> Oh god. Oh god. It's How do you you have an amazing ability to to get us excited, but also so terrified in one sentence. >> [laughter] >> We'll see. I could be wrong. Hey, if I'm wrong, that'll be okay, too, for for many reasons. That's fair. Yeah. All right, great. Thanks, Natalie. Great to see you. Thank you. [music] Want insights on what's moving crypto markets and how we're trading each event?

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