Why No One Wants To Be A Shared Sequencer Anymore

Transcript

Noah from no kid aell College Dropout I dropped out of UF what way did you drop out of dropped out of Iowa State yeah what was your GPA it's 2.0 like four what's going on guys welcome back to the rollup welcome to a chain abstraction paloa where we just wrapped up an epic one-day marathon in the heart of New York City diving deep into chain abstraction with some of the top teams in crypto trust me the series is packed with insights laughs and a few surprises you won't want to miss shout out to alni network for helping to put this together with their upcoming mayet soon targeting the interoperability and ux problem that we're currently facing in the ethereum and majer ecosystem we really enjoyed this series and looking forward putting all this content out there let's jump

right into today's episode after a quick word from some of our awesome Partners who make this [Music] possible cartey is your home for app specific cic rollups at the Forefront of developing new tools and platforms that enhance the capabilities of blockchain Technology ctei enables applications that are flexible and built to scale build on a full Linux environment and use traditional software libraries but in blockchain development go to cy. that's cy. to learn more about building your own app chain

today Everclear is pioneering the clearing layer the the clearing layer can almost be thought of as splitwise when you go on a trip with friends but for the blockchain what I mean by that is when users are sending cross chain messages there's often times fillers and solvers who have balances left on different chains that they need to rebalance and reset their positions this is where ever comes in ever is pioneering a collaborative approach to the chain abstraction future and they are willing to work with inoperability Partners solvers and other providers in the space to build a interoperable and Cher abstraction future check out Everclear ever clear.org and welcome

back to the L up all right we're here in New York with Noah from no kid a fell College Dropout I dropped out of UF where did you drop out of dropped out Iowa State how many years did did you do like two and a quarter I guess I made it so beginning of junior year and then we raised our around and been building ever since so do you remember what your GPA was oh I was above a three yeah nice I my last last semester I what was your GPA was 2.0 like four by the time I dropped out I was just barely on the cusp you know cuz that last semester you just like you're working on business you're not doing any school yeah just straight D's and Fs your your last semester after having like a 35 and you're like oh damn that didn't go so

well see for us the issue was we were pitching so I was doing all these like 30 30 minute pitches and we even had one which it's one of our investors that's like in our round um in this last round we had we were pitching them and we spent four hours on a pitch um on the Thursday and me and Nick had a test that night we they both failing that test but then we got the investor to be in the round nice all right priorities it worked yeah do investors ever give you like in the process was there investors who were just like we don't want to invest because you're just too young yes like first time found we don't invest in first-time Founders or we don't invest in college dropouts I got that did you make it clear you were going to drop out

if you like wrapped up the round okay somebody told you they don't invest in college dropouts they said they do not invest in college dropouts unless they knew them previously was this like a tier C fund or were they actually like the funniest thing was like the bigger the fun I think the less they mind about that stuff because they've also seen that their biggest exits don't come from like traditional Founders for example one one of the biggest exits in history Facebook Mark would not have looked good on paper Mark Zuckerberg did not look good that's my point like it's silly to discriminate based on education yeah you the bag so uh I can cook yeah yeah chilling just got to cook how long how long ago did you drop out now I dropped out right in October so we dropped out

before all the papers we even like dry at that point I was just like we're getting out we're going to go do this so it's been like a solid year that you've been working on this now or at least like full time yeah nice you ever feel kind of like you like just weirdly different from your friends like you just can't relate or you ever feel like ostracized it's definitely really weird when you like look at LinkedIn occasionally cuz then you'll see people being doing like the really fake LinkedIn post where it's like I was so happy to work at like this manufacturing company with the summer internship and I saw one of those posts when we were hiring people for full-time positions I was like this is it was just a very like St contrast it's like yeah sometimes I mean especially in the first two years

after dropping out I felt like I felt very just different because the conversations that I'd be having in real life like I end up moving places uh like like States so the conversation ended up just being like okay you're 19 you're 20 like what are you like what school are you in what are you doing and then you're like trying to explain that you're running like a pretty freaking successful online business and you're like so it's just kind of you know these are arrogant things perhaps to say you're like I'm hiring people I'm like I'm running a business right but it's like it was you kind of feel ostracized at some point where you're like I don't feel normal I don't feel like I fit in see my favorite thing to do now though is tell people I'm just a software engineer at a small startup is that what

you do it on like hinge oh hell yeah yeah course cuz it's just like why I have is like why do other people need to know unless I I want them to know I think that like in general there's like a certain nice part of being a Founder is like remaining private in places like you don't necessarily want like the press and like attention on it I think one of the main things in crypto is you're always building in public I would say crypto companies like especially is like you're always building in public a lot of things are like looked at like for everything that you're doing at conferences press everything so I think like having a clear divide between like personal life and then like the work life crypto like professional career is a great way to kind of like keep your sanity at the end of the day yeah I

agree I was talking to a girl last night at the apos event and just talking about how like you can get sucked into like crypto Twitter and then like you forget about you know some of the stuff that is you know outside of uh outside of the little Vortex but we'll kind of separate this now and go more into the into the business side of node kit and what you're building and still hitting on the personal stuff here a bit you guys are building in a space originally at least the idea was to build some sort of sequencing Network a shared sequencer and do like basically coordinated block building is now evolved into doing this thing called superb Builder which we're going to get into but as a young first-time founder you know we address some of like the the arays and kind of moving States dropping out like in what

in in your mind you decided to enter what is one of the most highly competitive markets of crypto I think like how in the world did you come up with this being a good idea to just go and try to compete with espresso Astria everybody else yeah so so for us initially we started out thinking about like how to decentralize Roll-Ups um and this was back in May so back in May of 2023 so before we raised and we realized um as we were kind of iterating on things that like bringing composability to change was like the main thing of the Crux of like What mattered for this and we realized we had a better solution with it so super Builders like internally for us were really kind of starting to get built out and started to get thought of actually all the way back

in like J December Jan January so when we came out with it over the past couple months and we've come out with demos and stuff like that like we've been thinking about this stuff for a while now and I think that like what we really figured out is that like shared sequencers by themselves and like most of the current iterations whether it's like espresso AST any of these other current iterations really don't get there because the shared sequencer by itself only provides this property called Atomic inclusion which basically means if we have a shared block and I'm going to give this shared block to two rollups the rups will see the transactions in them but they have no idea if the rups are going to execute the transactions is going to go through which unless you're running like an me bot is really not that useful for things like banking

things like trading things like things that you're you would use your mom would use or anybody that's in crypto or not out of crypto you need it to be Atomic and you need it to be around execution which is what super provide so for that reason we really found like we have a clear kind of different product segment in the market with super folders and we've seen that like a lot of our customers really don't like look at other options cuz they're like I want that I want the single block I want synchronous composability if you can deliver me that that's what I want and we've yet to essentially have a customer say well we looked at Javelin and we looked at one of the other offerings and leave so so help me understand uh how you achieve that property so this is something that

espresso has talked about for a while like this idea like cool we can only guarantee that we're going to like shove this transaction in there but a rollup might not it might not adhere to like the roll Up's rules of like actually executing according to the VM how do you get around that yeah so the way we get around that is essentially a superb Builder is this program that integrates with different full nodes for different rups and then you're able to guarantee out ofy because if you can control ordering of the block across different rollups then you can also control execution if you have a state flent to so that way we're able to do it and the team's background is actually specifically around data analytics at scale which helps out a lot because a lot of what we do on the dayto day is

coordinating lots of nodes lots of data coming to essentially a solution is it reductive to say you do block building and then you just also check to ensure that it conforms to the rollups State transition rules I think the first version Look guarantee inclusion like yeah so it guarantees inclusion and it guarantees exual yeah so I think that it looks similar to block building at first Until you realize that you're doing stuff like generative bundles so for example a user and that looks much more similar to intense where user could say I want to swap I want to bridge and then I want to swap again and maybe put money on the lending Market on destination chain so once you get to the atomic multile transactions it actually looks much more similar to like this concept of atomic settlement which we've seen in

banking a lot which traditionally like banks have all these different ledgers and there's no way of guaranteeing that if you're in Russia and I'm in the US and I want to send you $5 there's no way of guaranteeing that the transaction is going to go through both on my ledger on my US Bank and your Ledger on a bank in Russia Atomic settlement is something banks have continuously tried to chase but they haven't been able to get there that's why they're interested in blockchains so with atomic execution you're able to get that property so we think that like atomist is something like trfi has chased for a while and now that we can have it in crypto we think that will really like spur a lot of innovation yeah so we've been talking a lot about like chain abstraction and like this idea of like abstracting away

complexities in the gas and in the multi-chain user experience how does this property of uh atomicity enable kind of a user experience that isn't so uh fragmented and like is that going to be an end result of using some this Atomic composability uh uh protocols yeah exactly so we're working on a few different projects on the Chain abstraction side so they can essentially build on top of us leverage these Atomic bundles to build across different chains and it makes their life a lot easier for when they want to string together all these different actions across chain so you could swap on a roll up like camp for example and then go deposit in a contract on playi and then so on sorry I want to hop in there um who's who's going to benefit

from this property is it going to be users or solvers three years from now what's your take on that I think it's I think it's solvers at first I think it's users longterm interesting I would have almost expected the inverse so the reason why it's that way is because solvers I think right now are very much so looking for an edge in the market so I think solvers will benefit from I think chain abstraction in general because it's kind of this new nent product markets segment I think they'll benefit from adity first I think as we get more applications building on it then developers will benefit second and then users will be benefiting alongside developers as well as solvers we've kind of seen two pass so the way that like our Tech works is we have two different ways you can use

it so you can either have the single block Bridge transaction where you send a request in to this Javelin instance and say I want to bridge $5 from this chain to this chain and then it does open a single block and we also have a complex bundle API where a sophisticated user can say that I want to have five different transactions on five different chains and they either all execute are all fail and you can have dependencies across those so it really allows for like the more sophisticated users to use that as well so I think you really get both but for us the real hope is that you get developers to leverage this stuff to build net better applications that were not previously possible one thing that I'd like to learn about as well is uh espresso for example I think they talked a lot about shared

sequencers for I think 8 to 12 months there but now uh the team is strongly uh repeatedly communicating we are not a shared sequencer we are a sequencing Marketplace and my impression is that this came Downstream of like uh rollups not wanting to seed too much control over the like stack that they're currently operating um help me understand the superb Builder offering in that context of like uh what we've kind of covered the benefits that come from working with it what are some of these drawbacks that like maybe a rup has to seed uh as they start working with something like a a super Builder yeah so for a superb Builder the r really needs to essentially run run a sidecar program to opt in this network and then they're able to sell their

block rights whenever they want so it's also like a Marketplace style like espresso or is it like strictly less invasive um on that front Okay so and it's also a little more configurable so we can support stuff like l1s and we can really support anything kind of across the board for us like the main concern around it was we wanted to be able to support as many things as possible with synchronous communication cuz we just found that our our product was demanded by a lot of different companies the space that want to do a lot of different things across a lot of different chains so as a result we decided okay we got to make this flexible because that's that's the superpower of this is the synchronous communication it's not the fact that we're decentralizing it or anything like that it's really like synchronous composability is like the

moon shot thing that everybody wants what we found got it so what do they have to seed in order to do that they need to run a side car is there uh like that is a technological burden is there control over for example can the super Builder Jack uh block building rights over the core Network itself at any point or like who has ultimate decision on which block gets chosen yeah so the the core Network in this case like the rollup itself basically is saying and they're doing a modification on their stack itself that's basically saying if we opt in to be able to have our block be built by a s builder then we can't equivocate against it for that given block but they can also decide every

ethereum block whether or not they're doing that or not so really is like really nice to opt in it and opt out on it we really wanted it to be really flexible because we found that like wolves by Nature really love the flexibility that's why we're seeing this explosion and roll service platform I think those two the two issues where the optin and the mandatory nature of the opting in and out was the core issue that you discovered as well as the the the revenue distribution how are you guys thinking about Revenue distribution when it comes to the superb Builder compared to the other kind of sequencing and block building companies are just in your conversations with rollups like how is the revenue conversation going with regards to splitting revenue for node kit to acrw value in some capacity yeah

so it's done the same way that we were previously doing it when we were just done the Shar sequencer itself so it's done prata four bundles so for example if there's two rollups in a bundle that each get a percentage of the fee that's paid by the user and then a certain percentage of that Fe is going to the Builder as well as Bowers of a network to basically so then why would I ever opt in to super builder for Atomic composability with other rollups when I could just run my own shared sequencer or super Builder and get other people to opt into that and then I can keep all the revenue why would I yeah why would I do so what we've seen is rollups really like the flexibility around it and it's also much less of a lift for them yeah so you can do all the BD you can get all

the teams on you can do all the tech lift and then all they have to do is opt in instead of having to do it all themselves and they give a little bit of a cut away what is that cut like we're working with our rollups um on that and the exact number will be decided before M it but it's kind of just something you have to come consensus over with all the rollups within the network given that this is a fully opt-in system do you imagine a world where rollups work with multiple of these types of Builders so like is there a world where uh effectively node kit would be competing with espresso for these various blocks I think that the way that we've seen it thus far is that rips may want to have like a additional builders on it but it would be the same Builder software so

we're working out different ways for us to like monetize this Builder software so you could have like for example somebody like anchor or like another like an RPC provider type could be able to opt in to be able to do this solution all right so I mean that's interesting think about this being an opt-in system uh other other projects that are like focused on this space as well have like leaned further into this like giving sovereignty to these Roll-Ups so it is often do you imagine a future where uh rollups are opting into multiple of these block building networks and then these block building networks have to compete effectively on the bid that they are offering the rollups or do you think that they'll be tied to one I think that similar to how people initially were

asking whether or not people would like opt into multiple shared sequences and stuff like that I think that a similar thing will happen where one block b Network kind of win out um or like get the most rollups or like maybe there's two similar to the rollup ecosystem right now where you have and you have optimism are the two biggest ones and then you have every other rollups stack as well I think that they'll probably have a couple offerings that went out and rollups will basically say I'm going to use this one or I'm going to use this one and for us our main priority every single day is making sure that we make rollups as much money on the system and provide the best possible Dev experience so that rollups don't have to roll the stuff themselves because rollups should focus on being rollups at the end of the

day and getting net new users net new applications into crypto and I think that's the most high impact thing that they can do at the end of the day mhm yeah see okay so my only concern with the super Builder and the sequencing stuff is what if the world of crypto and rollups realizes that atomicity isn't really that important that we can just do everything asynchronously that this doesn't really matter and that achieving same block settlement or our same atomic inclusion execution is kind of like we don't really need it you guys are kind of working on asynchronous stuff with Omni I'll preface it as well that's my view of the world and you guys work on so let's kind of like turn this on to like Andy in the rollup interviewing Austin and Noah here so let's do this so like

the synchronous I'm going to preface my mental model then you guys can kind of see if you guys agree with this where you get where you disagree we we just had David from polygon talking about the agay talking about these rollup clusters Within These rollup clusters within the super chain within elastic within agair I see value and atomic composability for extremely fast settlement interaction between chains very very really tightly interconnected ecosystems that are relying on something like the super builder for the superb Builder uh based super chain or the super chain and the elastic chain agair to connect I see value and much more security through asynchronous communication that's my current view of like what could happen and where I see use cases for both do you guys see similar use cases for both

do you guys think that that mental model is wrong where do you see the best use case for your type of focus on composability yeah you want me to go or you want to kick it off you take it away Austin know has been going all right so I'll like yes my stance is that I think a uh vast majority probably 97% plus uh is not going to need Atomic composability composability is very very important but Atomic composability I think is uh the strict very difficult to achieve thing and therefore very expensive to achieve thing on top of it and I think a vast uh majority of user inter interactions possibly like 99.99 depend depend on like what applications

we have come into the ecosystem depending on like how financialized they are or not um I think a vast majority do not need to uh put time locks on state that exist on other platforms that's really like what it comes down to like do we need to adjust state in two different places at the same at the same time I think that that specifically matters for uh something like a spot deex uh so like an amm pool yeah that's like pretty important uh to get that but uh I do believe we're moving to a world where we are like going to vastly expand the number of applications that are operating on these systems and already a vast majority of them today don't need Atomic composability from uh my perspective that's kind of how I look at the world right now I'm curious to hear

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enjoy the rest of this video yeah so what we've seen is essentially most of our applications are actually like excited to use it are not as financialized as we initially thought most of the reasons why somebody's opting into it is the speed so having it within a single block having it super fast and the adom on the hood is something that keeps it safe and one thing I did want to say is you can have adamsy without having it be synr I think adom as a property is just something that's very nice to have because having either some a list of things all happen or all fail it's very useful in development in general because otherwise you can end up with stuck transactions users funds stuck on different chains I speak to developers every day where they're saying we had this issue and one of our customers

ended up where his funds were supposed to go from base to arbitrum to Sal for example they got stuck on one of the chains he's yelling at us we're upset how can we fix this so for us I think that we really seeing that like atomis is the super power I think that there will be some aspect of async versus synchronous composability as there always has been but I do think that the vast majority of applications if you can go synchronous then you're going to want to go synchronous it's kind of like saying would I rather have a Prius or a Ferrari I'm always going to choose the Ferrari and that's just but not if every transaction that you make costs a Ferrari size that's kind I don't think I I don't think the cost ends up being as as expensive because is I do think block

space is very abundant and it's going towards that way if we think there's going to be hundreds or thousands of rollups then block space the cost itself won't be that much but when you say that There's a constraint placed upon block space if you are necessitating that everybody is using a shared block building system because fundamentally then we have some system that needs to jam some amount of transactions into this thing that can be like uh Atomic and updates all of them synchronously yeah but if let's say there's five different chains participating and each of the chains is willing to pay the Builder $5 an honest profit-seeking Builder is going to include all the different bundles from all the different chains as much so as they can if it could if it can yeah I do think that

smaller chains by Nature will have to pay a slightly higher fee if you if you're trying to get into the latest nft Min on one chain and you're on a tiny little chain you're trying to move funds within a single block sometimes you're not going to be able to price in and that's just kind of the aspect of me that always exists in blockchain with State congestion but I think that for most applications synchronous composability makes their life easier not more difficult and it also allows you to build applications where you don't necess have to think about how how you're having to design an application as async from day one because most applications in crypto aren't designed of async in mind yeah I would say that most applications in crypto are not even thinking about this because they're all

within one state machine today and so like they don't even need to think about this like network communication level and that's honestly like the way that it should go in my opinion like uh developers uh should not have to think about the complexities of this stuff I think we're like baby stepping our way there as an ecosystem uh there's like a very there are many ideas for how to solve ethereum's fragmentation right now but none of them are like deployed wides scale in prod and like actually like seriously like solving the problem um I do think that in the next couple years we'll get through this weird stage of ethereum um and it will be like very exciting uh because it'll unlock a lot of things from the developer for perspective where it's like cool block space is abundant I can just build whatever I want I can have my own roll

up like I don't need to like think about fighting for Block space within this uh single place um and I think that will have very exciting implications for the application layer of the industry yeah so to kind of some the the pitch for atomicity is around specifically around atomicity synchronous composability is effectively a a property that can be reached via adamis and like as a result you're saying with the expansion of block space new chains box Bas is going to be cheap to transact in costs are going to go down you know teams will use alt dasas etc etc um and you guys think that you can run synchronous composability or at least adamacy across tons of chains for cheap give users the best experience and make a good Dev

experience by having kind of like transactions go through or not kind of fighting some of the reorg stuff fighting some of the cross state problems that happen in async you're saying look block space isn't going to always be that cheap if you need to scale us out across tons of chains you're going to have different problems of M you're going to have different problems of of users having to pay gas fees on different chains if they want to go for a highly like uh highly sought-after uh transaction or like a chain that's super important for most of the use cases in the world we don't need synchronous composability because asynchronous gets us there so where do we go from here like is there a combination of these ideas that we can bring together and like could noit and Omni collaborate to provide services is

that that at one part of the stack are sufficient and others they're here or like how does omni and superb Builder join forces for the use cases specifically that you guys are both more bullish on your specific products for yeah so to Nuance that I do think block space will be extremely extremely cheap in the long term especially as we're using like shared Bridge contracts yeah I think uh it more comes down to uh the difficulty of integrating into these different systems I think one area that we might actually like differ in opinion is um and ironically enough uh where they might like work together long term is uh I think a vast majority of this is going to be serving solvers I think uh users are not going to be thinking about

any of this and uh these mechanisms for like sourcing State updates and sourcing truth about what's going on on these different chains will be tools that you are used by solvers whereas users are just going to think about authorization give some they're going to be issuing a signature even though they're not going to be like thinking about it that way and they're not going to care about anything Downstream of that maybe like JP Morgan thinks more strictly about stuff like this but 99% of the users are not going to be thinking about this and so I think it's more about like uh what is the like speeding cost for solvers ultimately that it comes down to in my head um so yeah that's why I said I was surprised to hear that uh solvers in the short term but users in the long term because I view it uh inverted I think

everybody right now is talking directly these settlement layers and I would not be surprised at all if in a couple years uh almost nobody was talking L to the settlement layers and it was just solvers doing all this yeah for us we've seen like a tremendous amount of interest from the solvers at first so that's why I do think that solvers would be some of the first adopters of this because they're kind of seeking for adoms they're seeking for a way that they can get an edge right now and I think that a major priority for us right now is getting different applications to leverage this stuff it's new it's always more tricky to use new tech in general so I would say the major Focus for us is really going from solvers to applications and with that you really are touching the user every step of the

way as well so yeah all right can I hit you with a spicy one oh hit me all right so in disclosure I invested in espresso so like I I don't know legally what I have to like say but uh so my concern always with these shared block building networks is that at the end of the day they are still distributed networks and distributed networks it's very hard to scale the throughput of them so if we do imagine a world where there are thousands of rollups like if we are imagining a world where a rollup really is the function equivalent of what ec2 is on Amazon um then how do we like does this scale like yeah if it's still constrained by these distributed block building networks like does that choke

us when we have this like really exciting Pathway to scaling ahead of us yeah so the way that we've actually thought about this is we actually faced the exact same issue in the past of like a previous company around us um with having a bunch of distributed jobs um for our previous company it was large scale blockchain data analytics so it was taking blockchain data doing stff with it and there was there was 32 protocols and there was 100 something um spark jobs that were running continuously spark spark was for batch data and Apache flank for streaming data so when you have all these different jobs managing the best way of scaling these systems out is I do not think superb Builders long term will exist all on one machine I think the best way of doing it is you essentially have one

machine that's acting as a master node and then you or potentially multiple Masters but you have one machine here and then you're hooking in different modules that can operate on different ec2 containers or you're running them collocated maybe I'm actually misunderstanding how the superb Builder operates is it a distributed Network or is it a uh server so super Builder itself is there can be multiple different super Builders but like one super Builder is one person running all these different full noes okay so it's different builders that all comp within the node kit L1 kind like a CO abortion though like within like the node kit L1 is powering the superb Builder no this that's consensus is reached no so seek is a shared sequencer that's where we have an L1 yes so we

have a shared sequencer called seik and then we have a super Builder called Javelin correct and they work together so javelin's post data to seek gotcha regardless if the rollup is on seek or not that's how we distribute fees out is all all bids are run through it got it so one of these is decentralized the other is not yes okay um similar to Mega where they have centralized production and decentralized verification yeah I we just chatted with them earlier but I had the same so this is definitely coming from a perspective that is more like uh like I'm in crypto because I believe people should have complete sovereignty over their own assets and especially their like Digital Life um if we have uh one element of the stack that is

extremely centralized in this sense we lose the censorship resistance property that we like kind of have on ethereum today like and the reason I say kind of is because a lot of block building this it's actually the same area of the like transaction uh supply chain that is getting welcome aboard on our journey into the singularity this is the endgame road map for frax and fractal the new L2 out of the frax ecosystem that is totally based on fractal scaling fra still a modular L2 blockchain built by frax with modular and fractal scaling in mind fractal scaling is based on the mandal BR set of fractal images and it explains how l2s become l3s and the

entire app chain life cycle goes through its Evolution the frax ecosystem is made of some of the top builders in the space and has stemmed from its OG days of the frax stable coin it is now in the LST space the LR t space and this frax L2 joins the existing Suite of fra products including fra Swap and frax lend you can see frax fairy the bridge to go from any chain arbitrum optimism or main net into the fraxel main net Bridge your tokens and bring your FRA assets into the fractal ecosystem join today to get the

best out of fraxo you are still early join today take part in our Expedition into the singularity coent is solving the longterm data availability problem where a lot of the data availability providers today in the maer space when you post data to them they actually only hold that data for about 12 to 16 days and then it's basically they can go into archive note or often times he's just kind of put away into the abyss and what coill is trying to do is build build this long-term data availability solution which can plenty into some of these modular data availability providers and provide this longer term Perpetual data solution so what we try

to think of this as is when you post transaction data onto Celestial or Veil or any of these modu da Solutions or even ethereum coent is able to provide a long-term data storage and data availability platform for that data after the time period blockchains are Billboards not databases and you know meet these providers in the space to be able to kind of hold on to the longterm data that is provided from these providers and these blockchain State this is where coent comes in we just had a nice Rebrand check them out on Twitter as well as the website thank you for being here hope you enjoy the rest of the show we actually chatted with this about Mega eth earlier this like idea of like can we put some responsibilities in

a more centralized layer and then other responsibilities in a more decentralized layer um my concern is if we do that we'll end up formalizing the unhealthy relationship we have right now in the ethereum transaction supply chain where sure the L1 proposers get to like decide on the Block that gets included but there's like four or five Builders and a few relays that ultimately end up deciding what gets included and what doesn't and a number of these are American companies that are censoring transactions because like they touch a smart contract that has been OFA sanction so if we centralize blocks block production in this way um do we lose one of the most important properties of these distributed networks that is kind of my question yeah so on the topic of censorship resistance the

way that we've kind of been thinking about these block building networks is it's actually quite similar like how taxi networks themselves are formed where all taxi drivers need to follow a common set of rules to get the badge all of them essentially where all yellow taxes are essentially all following a common set of rules and they're having one parent company over them we view it as if there's going to be all these different Builders we're going to give them a common set of rules and then they can follow it as such and kind of have a Consortium of these javelins at the end of the day I do think sensorship resistance is something that is Paramount and you really need to be able to sell for it but rollups luckily always have the ability to force transactions and I don't necessarily think that Force transactions of cross

chain transactions is as big of an issue as being able to force exit to the L1 so I do think that's something that you need to solve for over time but I think that there's a certain amount of over engineering that happens in the theem community where if you over engineer it from day one then we end up with a lot of these projects well not going to name but a lot of these projects that over engineer things raise tons of money and then nothing ever comes out of it for years and years to come so for us we're really aiming to build the best possible product get it out to Market and then enhance it over time to add on additional properties such as better sensorship resistance and things like that but I think at the end of the day we exist to serve the info providers

that are building on top of us and if you're not existing to serve your users then I think that kind of making broad strokes and saying that we all need to solve these problems makes it very tricky to do Innovation because some companies are going to be best at solving one problem and then we can solve another problem with it later on all right that's kind of how we do it okay I'm done uh asking uh libertarian engineering questions I'm down chat like growth in uh like dgen brain yeah just a couple more questions um I I mean I really wanted to ask like what lessons you've learned playing in this space like as a first time founder it's a little bit like super off on a tangent here but like especially in in this kind of competitive space like Austin's saying like what have you

learned on like your on on moving towards focusing on the super Builder on the rise on just like team like what's just been some key learnings yeah so would say that there's really two that I could highlight it's we have an extremely fast feedback loop so I'm constantly trying to talk to customers and then going back to the engineering team and the rest of the team and constantly formulating that strategy so we're constantly very product driven in that realm and the other thing is building in public and understanding that you can build complex Tech but if nobody understands it it doesn't really matter at the end the day so we've really focused lately on educating people about how this technology can be used how it impacts them how it impacts their protocol and really how users are able to leverage this new tech because for us we really view it as a failure if

you build Great Tech but nobody uses it it doesn't really matter at the end of the day so we want to build Great Tech but also make sure users know how to use it know Builders know that it can help them out on all these different aspects so for us that's kind of the main things that we've been doing and as a young founder I would say the main lesson for me was you just have to get out there repeatedly because a lot of people think there's like a Playbook of like here's how young Founders like raise money or do anything like that at the end of the day it's a few companies early on your career that will give you a shot help you meet more people and then you just got to keep taking calls keep meeting people and eventually if you stay in the

game long enough you'll figure something out you'll figure out an idea you'll either get a job or you'll start a startup or something and you'll be able to enter this great industry of crypto but I do think like as young people trying that were trying to get into crypto the main thing was it's just like you just got to stay in the game you got to take every call it doesn't matter if you think it's relevant or not it's just about picking up the phone one thing that I'd love to hear your perspective on in this domain so uh the company I had before this I was so bad at hiring literally I like and a lot of it came Downstream not being able to articulate like the value proposition of what we were building as well but uh I I didn't even drop out I like finished school but

I really uh I sucked at hiring how has it been like building the initial team uh when people might have like biases about you being like younger uh with this it's been good thus far luckily we got backed by some of the best investors globally um with CSX so we were able to get great hires as a result we're well funded um and we're able to go out there pay good salaries pay at Market or above and really buil out a kick-ass team thus far so we haven't really had as many issues I think there's always the issue of like like there's always going to be teams that have more money or other things like that but at the end of the day if you can build a better product with a smaller team then more money just kind of serves as like rocket fuel for

you it's not as much of a differentiating factor yeah do you have any like older hires like guys in their 30s 40s G zos how's that feel being like 21 yeah it yeah I'm 21 and honestly it feels just fine at the end of the day um we're we're doing fine like I don't really think about it like I don't it's not something that like concerns me as much like I'm looking to build a team that has like the best developers the best marketing people like the best people to build no kit with so like I don't care if you're 40 or if you're a sophomore in college if I think you're the best then like I want to get that employe understood that's a wrap from us no thank you for uh for coming on and uh pleasure to chat as always it's been

great thanks for having me guys thank you man