Why JTX Could Be Solana’s Answer to Coinbase and Binance

Transcript

Bank list Nation. I'm here with Lucas Brutder. He is from Jetto and he's building something pretty cool. Lucas, welcome back to Banklist, my man. How you doing? >> Pretty good. Thanks for having me. It's been a a while. >> It has been a while. It has been a while. Uh we're going to dive into what you're doing over at JTX. But I first kind of wanted to just ask uh what's going on in the Salana neck of the woods? Like what's going on over there? Cuz I'm not really too tapped in. So what what's it like being in in Salana right now? >> It's pretty crazy. There's a lot going on. And I think the there's kind of this like weird um mismatch between like the crypto sentiment and the market. I feel like people are still kind of leaning a little bearish, but I feel like on

Salana it's full steam ahead. And so I would say the the top two things going on right now, obviously the um Anom and what he's doing has been very popular recently on Twitter. But the other thing that's really cool that we're excited about is all these tokenized stocks that are coming out and what Backpack and XOX and Aondo and some of these other guys are doing. It's super cool. So, uh yeah, like getting SpaceX day one, uh some of the memory stocks and then today the the new memory stock IPO is happening and uh that should be listed pretty shortly.

So, I feel like that's uh there's a lot of cool stuff going on in that kind of area right now. >> Has there been just a market winner or market leader in the tokenized stock camp on Salana yet or is it still pretty much a pretty fierce competition? Um I think it's as if you look at volume I believe backpack is winning. Um but uh I would say the the number of assets that they have I think it's like probably it's like around five assets where if you look at some of the other providers it's like tens or hundreds. Um I think there'll be some changes there pretty soon and expect to see a lot more assets listed. So, I would say it's still pretty early on in the tokenized

stocks, but I would say that's one thing Salana is really exceeding at right now. There's a few days where tokenized stock volume was higher than memecoins. And uh it's cool to see that flip. Like we've been talking about it for a while, like Salana's this memecoin chain, and when you see all these tokenized stocks come on, it's like, okay, this that the thing that we've been preaching this whole time is finally coming true. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That that is pretty exciting. Uh let's get into what you were building at uh JTX. So uh you're the founder CEO of JTO, which is if for people who speak Ethereum, that's if Lido and Flashbots had a baby. So a liquid staking token plus transaction ordering uh and uh ME management all in

one product. Now you're uh going vertical. You're verticalizing into JTX. Let's talk about JTX. What's JTX and why are you building it? JTX is a proumer trading terminal and so we feel like there's a piece of the market that's missing where um Salana execution has gotten really good but a lot of the tools that exist today are kind of more on the the memecoin side of things and so we're really targeting this proumer audience. We think there's going to be a ton of assets that come onto Salana, not only like other L1 assets, but tokenized equities, and we feel like there's u kind of a lack of good user experience for those those types of traders on

Salana today. And so, yeah, we really want to build something that gets more people on chain. There's only so much that you can do at the infrastructure layer to make that happen. And so we spent several months ideulating and decided this is the best way that we can get people on chain. And so yeah, we've been building this since like the end of March and be rolling out uh pretty shortly here. So JTO is known to be just extremely technically competent at the block level of Salana like down in the basement where like the micro structure of Salana really matters and you have to be just super intimately familiar with just the pipes of Salana just like the actual like architecture and foundation.

Uh yeah, you guys are verticalizing into a consumer application, which makes sense because you guys have the knowledge and the integration about transaction ordering, but it is a new domain for you guys. Like now you're in the world of like user products and user experience. What makes you think that you can go up there uh and get out of the basement and into like the front door of and become the front door of Salana? >> I think that we have the top team on Salana for shipping. And I think if you've looked at our past like we're the number one uh validator client block builder on Salana since like 2022 um largest and like deepest liquidity on goto soul and so I think this is just a natural extension of what we've done.

It's going to be way different and the way that we're thinking about this is way different and we brought on some more people to help us with this. So like thinking a lot about retention and user growth and like dedicated customer support and like all this stuff that we haven't really done before. And so everyone at Jetto is super hungry and we're excited for this challenge. And um been talking to a lot of people and kind of learning common mistakes and lessons and things like that. And uh yeah, we're really looking forward to the challenge. I think it's going to be fun. And uh yeah, we're going to kind of start with this like Salana native audience that knows us super well, but that's definitely not the end goal. We got to grow the pie. And so we got to expand out from crypto Twitter and find other

audiences to to come trade. So maybe just uh simulate for myself and the listeners what JTX like is from a if I just like go on is is opening up pretty damn soon here. It's got the weight list opening. Uh and so I'm a user. I'm going up to JTX. And what what do I see? What how how would you explain it to me? >> The experience that's most equivalent to would be like a centralized exchange. And so I would say very clean user experience. You can see all the assets that are available to trade. Very simple order box. We kind of abstract away a lot of like the token specific stuff that um yeah like if you if you go on a centralized exchange the the UI is

really clean where if you go into products on Salana it's like oh is the they go like super and deep on the weeds on all the stuff like is the token frozen and like what is the distribution and the top holders and like all the stuff that you really care about if you're trading meme coins and so it's a very clean UX uh very good order types that basically like only the pros have access to. So, we're giving everyday users access to really cool orders like T-Ws and we have this thing called SmartFill that we can dive into a little bit and uh yeah, just a really really clean user experience. Someone that is not familiar with crypto can just jump in. We're using Privy for key pair management. So, you can sign in with

your email. You can set up pass keys and all that. So, it's super secure. Mhm. Markets don't move one asset at a time. One day it's Bitcoin, the next Nvidia, then gold, and then the S&P. But most traders are still managing their portfolio across different platforms, different accounts, and different pools of capital. Bit just changed that. Their new stocks 2.0 product lets you trade tokenized equities directly with USDT, all inside the same app you already use for crypto. This is not just another tokenized stock product. Stocks 2.0 is designed around deeper liquidity, faster execution, and the lowest fees on the market at just 0.04% 04% and 1:1 economic exposure to the underlying stock. Dividends, stock splits, and other corporate actions are reflected automatically, helping your position stay aligned with the asset you actually

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episodes that are released every Wednesday. They're 30 minutes. They're short. They're punchy. I think this crypto cycle is harder to navigate than most. So, let's do it together. Go subscribe to this podcast. Search the DeFi Report wherever you get your podcast YouTube Apple Spotify or find a link in the show notes. There's a new episode waiting for you now. Exchanges of old, the the dexes of old would always be pointed towards the people who are pretty like informed about how a blockchain works. And so, there therefore, they've been designed to be pretty unopinionated. Like, don't make choices for me. Like, I know what a contract address is. like I would I need to know with the nature of like what this contract address does. So, please inform me. And then it gives all the like kind of the hardcore trenchers all

the tools they need to know to make, you know, an uninformed purchase of a brand new token. >> But then it's just so scary to like the retail audience, the people who don't know what they're doing. And so it sounds like you're taking the you're taking JTX and being more opinionated about what is shown and how it's shown and even even what assets are are shown. like talk about the opinionated choices that you guys are making. >> I would say not showing a ton of token information is some one of the opinionated choices that we're making. We are not building this for people in the trenches that are holding. If you look at some of the the platforms where people trade meme coins, the average hold time is like less than a minute and like at the upper end of it, it's like

less than 10 minutes. So, we are not building for those people. We're not building for the token that launched 5 seconds ago where you need to know the distribution. We're building for I would say maybe like the, you know, $1 million market cap and up tokens and tokenized equities and majors and things like that. And so I would say that's one thing. Um, we will, this won't be available at launch, but we're going to do some pretty cool things around equities that no one's done before. So, uh I think the equities experience on Salana leaves a lot to be desired. Um if you pull if you go to any uh tokenized equity on Salana, there's like

what there's probably three or four versions of Nvidia at this point. Like there's three or four versions of Nvidia. Each one has a different chart and they reference the onchain chart. So like if you look at the price charts, there's like a ton of like wicks if there's like low liquidity. Um, and so we'll be doing some some interesting stuff around that. And um, yeah, I'm trying to think what else is opinionated. Um, I would say uh, P&L and like portfolio management is like the key thing. So people when they're trading, they're not just looking at like what is their current balances.

They want to know what has their P&L been over time, what was my entry on this token, like what has my unrealized P&L. they kind of think in like terms of risk. So, uh that would be a very important piece of this. >> So, since go uh and you said that you know GTO is perhaps the best engineering team on Salana and you guys are like I alluded to earlier is like just intimately familiar with transaction ordering and not even in familiar but just like in charge of transaction ordering because of GTO's positioning.

How are you leveraging that ability and knowledge inside of JTX? And I'm I'm assuming those things are kind of wired together. So when somebody makes a trade on JTX, Jetto's transaction ordering ability >> provides a better execution price for JTX. I could only assume. Talk about that. >> Yeah, there's there's no like preferential treatment in BAM or anything else for like, oh, this is a JTX transaction. We're going to like treat it differently. But there's a ton of stuff that we've learned over time. So like uh routing transactions, landing them quickly. Um and then like how do the prop payms work and uh you know maybe there's specific

validators that are doing stuff that we don't want to send those these transactions to because they might get sandwiched and um just like a ton of different edge cases in the network that we've learned over time. >> So that's that's an opinionated choice. So, so you guys choose validators or exclude validators based off of their behavior. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> that's pretty cool. >> And um Yeah. So, so yeah, that's one thing that we do. And then the other thing is um one thing I mean we do this for basically every propm on Salana is using something that we call a maker priority plugin inside BAM. And so that means that all the uh makers for these prop amms across all these different assets on Salana, they basically get put

at the top of the block on Salana in inside the BAM blocks. And so this allows them to quote tighter because they don't have to get worried about they they don't they don't have to worry about getting picked off. And so essentially quotes are really tight. And so you will see that inside BAM where like you know the quotes are going to be really tight. uh you'll be able to see the the transactions getting routed uh through JTX and landing on chain and um we will I guess one opinionated thing that I just remembered is uh we have this thing called good trade. I don't know if you've used JTX. I think we give you access to it, but um we have this thing called good trade. And so, um, when you swap a token, let's say I want

to buy $1,000 of Soul, uh, via USDC on JTX, when you make that trade, we will, uh, look at the output amount and we will run that same trade on the best centralized exchanges at the same time and show you how much money you saved on chain compared to Salana. And so we've already we're already seeing really good results. It's much cheaper to trade majors on Salana. And so um yeah, I think some of that's from BAM and some of that's just from like prop amms and all the really good teams working at the infrastructure there. So if I'm if I'm like buying Bitcoin on Salana or something or soul on Salana or

something, you will go and look at Kraken and Coinbase and wherever Binance or whatever >> and then simulate those trades and then also provide a quote on Salana and user will be able to see that difference. >> Yeah, exactly. because yeah we we think Salana execution has really advanced in the past 12 or 18 months and uh there's a ton of innovation happening at the prop a mimml layer a bunch of stuff on Twitter and like block works is putting out a bunch of good stuff around that too but uh the execution's gotten really good but I feel like it's kind of stuck in this like Twitter sphere where like when you say the best place to buy Salana is on Salana that kind of like I

feel like people don't believe that and it's like stuck in this Twitter sphere. So in JTX every time you make a trade we will rerun that and show you how much money you saved. And so we're really bringing that really good execution quality front and center and show that Salana can beat centralized exchanges when it comes to trading. >> And I'm assuming if I ask you is this feature that a centralized exchange has in JTX is that feature that a centralized exchange has is it in JTX? The answer is yes. That's like like that's kind of the the point of it. So like you know limit orders, t-waps, like all that kind of stuff is in JTX. What about uh per are per in JTX? Because you guys aren't building an exchange. You guys are building a front end, a consumer experience uh transaction

ordering technology, but you guys aren't building the exchange. So what about uh just a perex is that integrated in in JTX? >> It won't be at launch, but shortly after launch, we are looking at Phoenix per integrating that. And so they have some really cool technology. They're uh quickly listing more and more markets. And so we're super excited about that. We have a lot of wood to chop on like the best spot experience. We don't want to bite off too much. But uh once that's in good state, we want to go into per markets. And um I think a big driver is going to be like what people uh what the feedback is and like what people want to trade.

>> So who's your competition then? Are you trying to compete with uh like the Jupiters or like the pump funds or like who do you consider yourself to be the competition? Like where do you want to take market share from? >> I would say the centralized exchanges are main competition. So um you know there's you can you can look at the pie as like I want to take market share from others or I want to grow it. And I think we have been in the business and one of the reasons why we're so successful is like we are trying to take market share from everyone else um you know centralized exchanges and like NASDAQ and New York Stock Exchange and things like that. And so that's the multi-year vision is

that's who we're going after. Of course like a lot of the the way that we talk about JTX right now is just focused on Salana native people and that's what we're going to go with. That's our wedge. But I think over time we will continue to go more and more after centralized exchanges and uh start to get into the the equities as well. >> Are you going to put an on-ramp into JTX? >> Yeah. Yeah, we will. There's a few options we're looking at right now. Um but yeah, I think most of the people in Salana, they have uh uh they have soul in their wallet already, but um >> so yeah, they're they're kind of onboarded already. But yeah, there's a uh man, I don't know if you used an

on-ramp recently, but some of the fees that those things charge are just insane. >> Yeah. Yeah. The the direct on-ramps, like the on-ramps onto centralized exchanges are cheap because centralized exchanges have that control and so if there's like fraud, >> they they can lock up your funds. So, you can't withdraw from the centralized exchanges. But I would imagine JTX doesn't have that because you guys are non-custodial. And so that's why the direct on-ramps onchain have to add fraud into their charges. >> I would imagine if you're trying to compete to be feature parody with centralized exchanges in the longest of time horizons, JTX would actually be have like a custodial arm to it so that

it can onboard retail or users who don't yet have assets on Salana. Have you thought about that? >> I haven't. No, it's an interesting idea. Um, yeah, obviously you want you want the onboarding experience to be super fast and easy. So like debit card, credit card, bank account. Um, and yeah, hopefully there's a good option that we can find that's cheap on fees, but um, yeah, rolling it in house could be interesting. There's definitely that would be something completely new for us, but uh, I think we could we could pull it off with our team. And we have Rebecca, too, who's just a super badass uh, CLLO for us. Oh, the Rebecca. The Rebecca. Rebecca Reading. Yeah. Okay.

Yes. Yes, you do. Let's talk about a JTO value acrruel uh from JTX. So, Jetto has a token. It's JTO. Uh JTX no new token. JTO is the token. Talk about uh how JTX benefits the Jetto token. >> So, 80% of the revenue from JTX will go to the DAO. And um I think we're trying to figure out what to do with that. You know, you could do um you could burn it. You could just have it sit in the Dow. We'll figure out what happens there pretty soon. But uh 80% of all the fees from JTX will go to the Dow. The other 20% will go to reinvestment. And so as we see more and more people go on to JTX

and trade that will you know in turn buy more JTO and send it to the DAO and uh all the fees on JTO or on JTX will be used to buy JTO and return it to the the DAO. So we're not giving the DAO USDC or any of these like meme coins that might go down 99% that we collect fees in. It's essentially just continually swapped to JTO and sent to the DAO. >> So Salana has uh vastly improved its execution is what you've been saying. So the value your claim, your idea is that Salana execution is just really really good. And so what you're doing is you're creating JTX to kind of like wrap up Salana and all of the assets on Salana

and all of the very strong execution on Salana. And you're really just wrapping Salana into a proumer trading experience. And I don't know what the market cap of of JTO is, but it's compared to Soul. Soul is like what 40 billion right now? 50 billion uh >> 60 something like that. >> Multiple tens of billions. And uh JTO is is valued how much? 1 billion. >> Uh it's the FTV right now is probably like 600 or 700 million. >> 700 million. Okay. So if you're taking 80% of the trading fees of this trading experience and you're buying JTO and and not burning it, but buying it and giving it back to the Dow, why would I ever buy

Soul? If JTX is successful at what it wants to do, why would I ever buy Soul instead of JTX? Well, um I think there there's going to be I mean obviously I hope we capture a huge amount of the market share that exists in trading, but there's going to be a bunch of other stuff happening on Salana that will not be going through JTX. So like arbitrage and things like that are going to be going on. people trading meme coins. I think there's been a lot of um like even just unrelated to JTX, there's been a lot of cool in uh there's been a lot of cool proposals

that I think we're going to go to vote soon on Salana tokconomics. So there's one um I can't even remember the the name the numbers of the SMDs right now, but there's one that will double disinflation. So it'll uh basically cut the inflation the rate that inflation decreases in uh it'll like double the speed of that. So basically >> Mhm. >> you know uh yield will go down and the amount of tokens being emitted by the protocol will go down less cell pressure should help number go up and then um there's another uh burn one as well that uh is basically suggesting that all that there's a increase in burn based on the

number of transactions that the network processes and how many resources they use. Right now the burn in Salana it's just flat and so there's a basically a flat fee per transaction. There's no resource-based fee like if there's u you know computationally heavy transactions or super cheap transactions the amount of burn that changes on the network uh it doesn't exist. And so I would say those two proposals there's other stuff coming too that should really help uh you know in make Salana deflationary.

>> So the the idea of like so in Ethereum which is the economic system that I'm familiar with if there's just like enough slack in the system the fees are zero. That's not true with Salana. >> There's a base fee. There's some pri priority fees as well. Blocks are not full right now. There will be some spikes where they're full, but I think they're probably around 50 to 60% full right now. There's still a lot of priority fees being paid though. A lot of traders and arbitrageers and things like that have a need for speed and they're willing to pay for it.

>> Does it So, the bulk of soul burned comes from the priority fees, the cont uh contestion. >> No, the uh bulk the bulk of priority fees is basically just a function of how many transactions are being processed a day. >> So, just straight volume. straight volume. >> Yeah. >> Yes. Straight transaction volume. >> Um those could be like a lot of >> um >> Yeah, it's just based on the transaction count essentially. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> And so yeah, if we can get the rate of inflation down and then charge based on the essentially on the block size, then that would be super helpful for soul tokconomics, especially as we start to see um basically every new asset that

comes on chain that people want to trade, there's a prop amm spun up for it. And you know, there's like probably 10 or 20 prop ammms. So like you take every propm they need to send an oracle on chain. There's, you know, every new equity that comes on chain is going to have a prop amm and so the amount of transactions that are going to be generated as more and more assets come on chain is just going to be insane. >> When you say execution on Salana has gotten drastically better over the last like 18 months, is that because of the prop amms? Like how much of that is due to prop amms?

>> Yeah, I would say there's two main things. One I would say is just core protocol work. So the work that uh Alansza and Fire Dancer and us and other core client teams are doing to make the network faster. I don't know if you use I think last time we chatted it was like right around the GTO airdrop maybe shortly after if you use the chain back then it was just like a nightmare to use like transactions wouldn't land. Uh basically everyone was landing transactions through JTO because like the the normal pipeline was just super uh it was just buggy and like not good.

And so there's been a ton of really good work at the core protocol layer. Blocks are going up and they're like getting bigger and bigger. The uh core client teams that we should get we should almost double block size within the next like month I would say. And so that's going to help a lot too. So yeah, one is all the the um work going on there. And then I would say the other thing that led to execution improvements would definitely be the prop amms. And so yeah, those are just really efficient at expressing um the like what the market maker wants to do and they're kind of putting the market maker logic on chain. It's really really cheap to update the pricing for

that asset just because of the way it works. Um, and yeah, I guess like the the explain like five is like if you're if you're running an order book and you want to shift your orders around, you have to go to every tick and like cancel it. So, you have to cancel all these orders and then like move your uh mid over and like replace all the orders. Where these propms, they kind of just they have this curve and then they can basically just shift this uh point around. And so shifting that that midpoint price, it's super cheap. It's like um I think the cheapest prop amm oracle update is like sub 100 cost units where if you want to make a trade on

order book it's like 40,000. So >> right this is like a engineering efficiency innovation in terms of just like putting market maker logic on chain. It's just like a way better way to do it. Yeah, it's been really cool to see too like um so yeah, I think there's like the super OG one called Lefinity. They shut down uh recently, but the next main one was Soulfi from the Ellipsus team, the team that's building per. So they were like the first team that created the this like next generation of propm.

And you know now we have like humidify and bisonfi who's run by jump trading or jump crypto and um you know Scorch and Tacera and all these prop AMMs and then you start seeing prop amms pop up on base and other L2s and now we're seeing propm go on to Ethereum and they're doing on Ethereum they're doing similar stuff to like BAM's maker priority plugin where they have top of B the block builders like Titan and ers can like receive prop AMM updates and get all these super tight spreads that are like tighter than the tightest centralized exchange onto all these chains. And so that's been something

really cool to see that like that's born on Salana and then now we're seeing it on L2s and um Ethereum and I think there's some people doing it on Robin Hood chain as well and that's just been really cool to see that like innovation being born on Salana and like taking that to other chains and I think uh you know hopefully all these other chains can offer spreads that are tighter than the tightest centralized exchange pretty soon. What's the AMM word doing in a prop amm? Is that is that accurate? Can you explain that to me?

>> Um, let's say it's uh it's accurate enough to get the point across. >> Okay. So, like an AMM is like what unis swap invented. You know, x* yals k >> or whatever whatever that exchange is. It's been a while since I've thought about that that equation. Um and then the idea of a prop amm is like you know it with unis swap v3 something that we saw maybe this was even happening in unis swap v2 uh was that we would you would see uh just in time liquidity come in on the unis swap v3 curve and the unis swap v3 curve had concentrated liquidity so you could while x* y equals k was a was a you know a constant slope the slope didn't change you what unis swap v3 brought to the table is you

could add liquidity just in a particular band on that slope and so parts of that slope would have very high liquidity and it would be around the mid-market price of an asset and then like the tails of the slope would have no liquidity because why would you ever provide liquidity for like $10 ETH like it's just don't do that or or a million dollar ETH also don't do that you know hopefully one day but no uh and so what we saw is we saw like kind of in the me world we would see people come in and provide very high liquidity when they saw in the memp pool somebody coming and slapping a $1 million ETHUSD buy and so they would they would provide liquidity to capture the majority of

those fees just in time inside of the concentrated liquidity. It sounds like that's what prop amms are doing. Uh but rather than viewing the memp pool, the logic for that is onchain. Is that the kind of the core innovation >> kind of? Yeah, they every propm has its own curve and they will change the curves over time. So there's a really >> that's why we call it an AMM because it's a curve. >> Yeah. And there's there's some logic on chain where uh every propm is different, but they can like widen their spreads and change the way the curve works. So if you go there's a really cool website people can view. If you go to sand sandwich me, if you go on the left side,

there's a prop amm section. And so you can see the curves from all these different market makers in the spreads on chain. And so yeah, you can click through some of these like um if you like go to Bison Fi, you can look to see their spreads are uh pretty tight right now like half a bip and they have a really steep curve. And then if you go to some of the other ones um you know their curves are a little wider and maybe not as steep. So yeah, this is the this is a unified soul USDC view of all the curves and then you can click >> this the aggregate curves of all the prop AMMs of the sole USDC market.

>> Correct. Yeah. >> Right. And so if I click on one of these this is like one of one of the curves and when you add them all together they come you you see the the net curve and this is just an order book. >> Uh it's kind of an order book. Yeah it's like a >> it looks like it looks like an order book. It look a ver it's a it's a implied order book. It's an implied order book. >> Yeah. So yeah, you can see here that uh for 100 soul depth on Salana right now, you can get less than a bip spread. That's just like insane. >> And so >> I don't think that's going to stop with soul. We're seeing it on Bitcoin, Zcash, Hype, >> uh SpaceX. Uh we'll probably see it on that uh South Korean memory stock that

gets listed today. And so, uh, >> basically like I think that, uh, this is not a trend that's going to slow down. And like when we started looking at building JTX, we're like, okay, things are definitely trending in the right direction. And like prices are getting good. There's more asset issuance coming onto Salana. And so it's like this is going to be really big. And it's already beating uh uh it's already beating centralized exchanges. I think it's going to start beating, if it hasn't already, some of these more like New York Stock Exchange and NASDAQs on prices and you run it 24/7 totally permissionless. So, uh, yeah, things are things are happening. Me and Mikeo have been pounding this drum for a while

where crypto, you know, DeFi, Dexes, blockchains are never going to surpass centralized exchanges unless we can get price discovery to happen natively on chain. like who determines the price of something like what the oracle is right now it's Binance it's been Binance for a while you know second place is Coinbase but we need it to happen on Ethereum or Solana or some have make it happen on the blockchain and if we don't have native price discovery if we are not the place where price is determined then you're kind of just use my language cucked by whoever is doing price discovery and so having price discovery happening natively on chain is such a >> golden goose it's such a trophy And it's

like the last time I talked to him about this was like a number of years ago, but we just seem to have stalled out in getting native price discovery on chain. This is why like memecoins are always on Ethereum. They're always denominated in ETH on Uniswap is because that's just like you know memecoins launched on on Ethereum and also on Salana and in Salana it's it's you know the memecoin is paired with Soul. Uh and that's you know the memecoin price discovery happens on chain and that's why it's actually kind of like cipher punk. But then as soon as like uh whiff volume dominates on like Binance or Salana then we kind of like lose that that uh that chain dominance. So what I'm seeing here with prop ammms is like we have a new venue for getting price discovery on

bigger pairs USC soul USC Bitcoin to happen on chain and like and so like there's been just this forever arms race between order books on centralized exchanges and you know AMMs on blockchains and AMMs have been really constrained but now we have prop AMMs which is starting to look like an order book and so this is actually kind of giving me some renewed hope that we can get price discovery for the world's biggest assets to happen on chain. Do you think we can get that done? >> Oh, a thousand%. I think we'll be seeing that. I mean, you there kind of already is starting to be price discovery.

There's definitely price discovery on Hyperlid. Um, uh, I think Salana will be there very shortly. Um, just in like the off venue hours, so you know, stocks don't trade 24/7. So there'd be some price discovery there. And um yeah, I think this is I think that um Salana is not the right environment to run order books. Uh I think it's going to be prop amms for the future, not only on Salana, but basically uh essentially every chain unless you're like 100% dedicated to order books and or like an app chain. And um >> yeah, I think this is uh super bearish on uh just like traditional AMMs because

those those can never do price discovery because they rely on people arbitrageing the price to bring it in line where if you look at propms there's actually like people that are making these markets and they're moving them around without getting arbitrage where like the if you make like a SpaceX USDC pair on unis swap that's not going to be constantly discovering the correct price. It's just going to be people other people that are going to arbitrage against it. And so this I think prop amms on Salana are just going to be massive for making price discovery happen on there. One

thing that was that is nice about AMMs like vanilla AMMs is you can see all the liquidity like you can see how much USDC is in the ETHUSDC pair and ETH and like you just have that information with prop amms we don't have that because a lot of logic is held offchain by the prop AMM. Is that true? >> Uh well I mean we were just looking at the curves. It's like you can see the curves. >> Um >> right. But like couldn't the liquidity just like disappear inside of like a couple blocks? Uh yeah, I mean that can happen on uh like a normal AMM too, like if someone is the main uh I guess the prop AMMs are uh you know it's just one market maker running it where uh you know hopefully in the the AMMs on um uh

like Ethereum there's multiple liquidity providers and the thing is on Salana everyone is using an aggregator so everyone's using Jupiter or DFlow or Titan or any of these other aggregators and So they are constantly looking at the curves of all these propms and trying to route to the best venue for prices. And so if a market maker goes down, they need to, you know, it's a bug or they need to upgrade their program or whatever, like that AMM will just get pulled from the route and like they'll route to other market makers. And so uh you have a lot of um >> there's a lot of like robustness at the aggregation layer which is what most

people are doing. People aren't going to like bisonfi.com and only swapping against that. They they want to get all the venues uh hooked together. So, um there's a lot of like robustness going on there and uh it can handle like a market maker going down and then you yeah you just get really good competition and like people want to get more flow so they're quoting tighter and these aggregators are like choosing which one to go to. So, uh, there's a lot of like really cool stuff and like kind of nerding out here a little bit, but like this is what I love and I feel like we know a lot about this and kind of just ties back into like what we're doing with JTX and like really understanding a lot of the nuance here.

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you signed up for Banklist Premium and there is a link in the show notes to get started. Cheers to a good 2026. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean what I'm seeing is just like a growing richness of onchain capital markets. Like this is what onchain capital markets would look like. Uh just a little bit more on this subject so I can understand it more. Like one of the conversations that's happening right now is um >> uh the cash cat token on Robin Hood chain that recently just like pumped because Robin's all about beans now. And people are like looking at the liquidity of cash versus the liquidity of of the Ansom token on Salana. And we kind of have just like a a control study or like an AB test of like look at the liquidity of cash and look at the liquidity of Anom the Anomcoin and people are are

like pointing at the Anomcoin and saying like look at Cash Cat has three times the the liquidity on Robin Hood chain than Anom has in the Anomcoin on Salana. Is that a fair comparison or are the prop amms you know also there's also liquidity inside of the propm that aren't being measured there? was how does the prop amm conversation fit there? >> Um, I don't know if the prop ammms are quoting Ansom right now. Um, I mean, it's definitely a comparison you can make. Um, I'm not really sure what you can like do with that information, but uh, uh, all the liquidity dashboards like Bird Eye and Helas and those guys and JTX, uh, we use, uh, Bird Eye on the

back end. they should track the liquidity via um on the the prop amms and so uh yeah if there's liquidity on prop amms it'll show up but yeah I think the uh the Robin Hood stuff's really interesting it's just like I had a tweet the other day about it like uh you might make things for like real world use cases but uh you don't really get to decide what uh people trade >> what happens on yeah there's uh people just want to uh there's a subset of people that just want to dejen and that's fine and like for Salana that that was the best thing because it really stressed the network and it's why it's so far ahead and able to uh handle like the SpaceX IPO and

what's going to happen later today. >> Mhm. Uh what if a lot of assets happen land on Robin Hood chain that people want to trade and they're not going to be available in JTX because JTLX just hooks into Salana? Would you integrate something like any any other chain other than Salana? >> Um, yeah, we're open to it. I would say it's not the highest priority, >> but um definitely open to it. I think the Robin Hood obviously is insane, incredible distribution and uh it's going to be really good for them helping bootstrap that chain, but um there's also Salana has really good distribution, too. So, I think it'll be interesting to see what happens. I think uh I you know who I'm

rooting for but uh yeah I'm definitely monitoring the situation. >> Uh when I remember listening to Will Warren from uh ZeroX Matra listening to his talk at East Denver and it was kind of an indictment of prop amms on Salana. like some of them have good behavior, but he was specifically calling out the bad behavior of a few propm that would uh just like leave in bait transactions. And so they would set the price with a bait transaction but then they would yink the bait transaction and somebody would try and like you know sell a token into that bait transaction and they it was just toxic behavior to just you know max extract and it's just you know it's Darwinism survival of the fittest

definitely fits into that camp and then like a few toxic prop amms would kind of spoil it for the rest of them. So the rest of them were kind of dragged down into the into the market and kind of just really made execution toxic for for retail. >> What's going on with that? And does JTX protect users in any particular way from toxic prop amm quoting? >> So yeah, I think some of those games were going on on Salana several months ago. There was um I think a lot of uh there's a lot of public data on what was going on. So you could see some propm playing these games. Um I think a lot of like social shaming happened not only on Salana but um I've seen bits and pieces I talk and uh you know there's some

social social shaming going on there too. I think there's uh there's a few things that you can do to mitigate this and that people on Salana and likely ZeroX team are doing too. So one is you can just watch what these prop amms are doing over time and if they are starting to play games if you own the distribution like Jupiter or Dflow and these this is like the top of funnel where people are coming in you can just be like stop it I'm going to like disconnect you and uh or I'm going to like route less flow to you and uh I'm sure there's some of that going on you know I don't uh there's probably some of that going on. The other thing that's really cool that we've started to see

more recently and uh I think every aggregator does this now is uh some forms of like onchain routing. So this matters a lot more for high performance networks with low slot times like Salana. But um if you want to buy soul USDC, the aggregator will look at the chain state and they'll be like, "Okay, like I'm going to go to these two propms and this AMM because that's the best price right now." And then, you know, they'll build the quote for you. You send your transaction, it lands. That can be like a second or two. On Salana, a lot can happen in that second or two.

like the prop AMMs can widen out or like maybe liquidity on the AMM gets pulled or something like that. And so we're seeing more uh AMMs or more of these aggregators put their actual routing logic onto Salana. And so they'll be like, "Okay, this these AMMs have shown that they can quote tight." And so, uh, here's like some some information that the program can use on chain. Like here's the AMMs to look at. And I will, uh, route the transaction and like build the flow and like how much gets pulled from what decks on chain. So I can actually look at the live price as opposed to um you know having this like

snapshot that's stale. So that's definitely helped a lot. Those two things have helped a lot. And then like you know I'm sure aggregators do like some statistics and all the stuff on like who's quoting the best. So they'll they'll kind of bias flow there. But uh I think that's a solved problem at this point. And uh we use Gflow. They have some onchain routing. So uh you know don't really have to worry about that. Good to hear. Good to hear. Let's talk about the roll out of JTX. So, you guys are opening up the weight list, a pretty big weight list on the 14th, 14th or 15th. Uh we're recording this the week before. Uh but listeners are hearing it the week of. Uh how does somebody get access to JTX? And then what's the plan, the short-term plan for like the next

few months? >> So, uh we will be rolling out on the 14th. Um there's we're going by the number of referrals that you have. So, if you're in the top like 10% or something, you'll get access earlier than if you have less referrals. So, we're going to roll that out gradually over time over the next week or so. And, uh, yeah, it's going to be really cool to see. Um, this is like a total MVP and so, uh, there's definitely a lot more that we have planned. This is not the final product, I would say. Uh, there's a lot of stuff that we're doing behind the scenes on like more data. So uh that will be no one else uh we'll have a

feature and no one else has. I think a lot of traders will really like on the data side and then uh roll into equities per and prediction markets after and uh just keep iterating you know discovering bugs uh what do people want and try to ship those as fast as possible. >> And what what's what do you have for over the like the longest term horizons? I know you guys are just focusing on the here and now but like I don't know what do you want JTX to look like by the end of the year and into the future? Yeah. Um I would say that you will be able to trade any asset in the world on JTX >> if somebody comes and issues it on Salana.

>> Uh maybe we'll go off Salana, but um I think that uh uh maybe not go off Salana, but you know add uh add these other chains. But um >> there's a if you've been paying any attention on Twitter, you can kind of see where things are heading. uh definitely in the equities world and I think within the next probably six to nine months you will be able to trade any stock in any country in the world on chain and so uh you know that's the that's the future that we're preparing for there's a lot going on at the the product level at different companies and then hopefully we see uh clarity go through and this u the SEC exemption come through as well and so that's

definitely the direction things are heading and that's where we're going. >> Lucas is uh soul undervalued. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I mean, if you want to be a good investor, you have to uh there was a a podcast with Tushara the other day. He's like, "Yeah, usually if I'm feeling like an idiot for being in the industry, that's when I should buy." And uh and when I'm feeling like a genius, that's when I should sell. So, uh it's pretty clear from the inside where things are heading on Salana. It's gonna take a bit to get there, >> but if you want to be a good investor, you have to get ahead of these things.

>> And so I think it's I think it's undervalued for sure. >> But I suppose there's uh being undervalued because crypto is potentially undervalued. You know, Bitcoin is at $64,000, Ether is at $1,800, Salana's at $78. Do you think Salana is uniquely undervalued compared to the rest of the crypto industry? Yes, >> because of all the prop am the execution tokenized socks, all that kind of stuff. >> Yeah, I think uh there's a few reasons I would say a lot of the uh the the SIMD and protocol improvements that we were talking about earlier around inflation and burning. There's um tokenized equities. I think there's a lot of stuff

that we're going to bring via JTX to get people trading more and also get people that don't trade on chain to trade on Salana more. Um there's a ton of protocol improvements coming. So we're going to go from 60 million to 100 million block size within the next month or so. And uh I would say the like the best teams win by iterating the fastest. And I would say no one is iterating faster than Salana across all the the teams not only teams that exist today but the new teams that are coming up to. And so like if you just look at the pace of iteration on Salana between the protocol and all the people working on it and

look compare that to any other ecosystem, it's by far the best and the fastest iterating. And so like yeah, you can look at the current state of the world in crypto and like be bearish, but it's hard to do that if you just look at the uh the state of iteration on Salana. >> Cool. Lucas, thanks for coming on the show. >> Thanks for having me. >> Bank station, you guys know the deal. Crypto is risky. You can lose what you put in, but nonetheless, this is Frontier. It's not for everyone, but we're glad you're with us on the bankless journey. Thanks a lot.