Why the Dollar's Stablecoin Update is Inevitable | Jeremy Allaire, Circle

Transcript

wow what happens if money velocity means that the amount of transactions that can happen in the world go up a THX from where they are today by the end of 2025 stable coins like usdc will be legal electronic money supervised by the central banks in the major Financial Market centers and it will be something that trafi right traditional markets will actually be able to utilize can't remember last time I funded a deal uh with a wire transfer in many ways it's a yellow flag or red flag at this point as a Founder in crypto I think there's a lot of folks who I mean are basically waiting for the IPO markets to open up and I'm I'm sure you can't share too much but I will say it's like it's all eyes right now on Circle and

Kraken this episode is brought to you by anoma the universal intent machine introducing a new era of applications where you define the outcomes you want to stay up to date with anoma you can follow them at x.com anoma or sign up for the newsletter at n.net special thanks to anoma for sponsoring today's episode real is a permissionless L2 designed for tokenized real world assets they've just launched their Rewards program so get started at re. rewards and be sure to use the code in the show notes below special thanks to real for sponsoring today's episode everyone knows there's a massive shortage of top senior marketers in

crypto and teams are constantly struggling to get their go toket Market done right that's why we're excited to have partnered up with Renault Partners the premier go to market advisory firm for early stage crypto teams get in touch with their team by heading on over to re nud partners.com or giving the co-founder Jeff a follow on X check out the links in the description below all right everyone welcome back to Empire we have uh Jeremy aair co-founder CEO chairman of circle back on the Pod he's been on before but Jeremy welcome back to Empire thank you really uh really happy to be here yeah so okay so I think people have probably heard the

Jeremy story a lot and the circle story and they've heard uh Jeremy answer questions like how do you compete with tether and how does circle make money and who's using these stable coins that is not what I want to make this episode I think that Jeremy for people who know his background has a really interesting story pre- crypto building companies in the internet world and then getting into crypto um so Jeremy what I want to do with this episode is talk about how changing the velocity of money by through stable coins will actually change the internet and our internet Financial system and I think the best place to start here is not by talking about crypto it's by talking about the architecture of the US dollar and this might be a weird

question but I'm curious to can you just outline for us um what is the tech stack and like the tech architecture of the US dollar today yeah I mean like so the the the the bigger theme there's lots of ways of talking about that um you know the the you know when people have like a USD balance somewhere that might have different meaning to them in terms of what that is but every one of those balances um implies uh a lot of different kinds of risk uh a lot of embedded uh uh credit risk uh Market risk liquidity risk all kinds of stuff but at the end of the day and actually I asked this question this exact same

question to a number of years ago to the Chief Information officer of of the of the New York fed or of the FED uh and and I was like this guy probably knows what the architecture of the dollar is and and I I I don't want to represent that I I know that this is still the case but a number of years ago he said it's you know a cluster of Oracle databases running on like sun operating you know Sun Microsystems like you know I don't think they call them mini computers but like workstations or whatever they they call them and um you know at the end of the day right there's a database and you know it's probably in New Jersey it's probably not in New York I don't know but uh but we can speculate uh but you know there's basically like

these kind of clusters of databases that keep these records and the records are of the the what what would be kind of the mzero uh you know cash uh portion of of dollar money there's the phys physical cash version but most of it is actually these Central Bank database entries and so you got Oracle databases holding that and then you know you kind of go out from there and you know let's say you've got a JP Morgan dollar and you've got a Bank of America dollar and you know you've got uh you know all these you know First Republic dollars or whatever uh and and those are different those are different so those synchronize through that that database uh using actually

really old technology um there are apis but like underneath it's like you know text files like comma Del limited text files and FTP servers so if you're technical at all You' be like oh my god um so you have like these syn synchronizations that happen um uh to to you know kind of balances uh that that are outside but actually the dollars that you see in your account if you have a Chase account or I don't know what you have and you see like I have a thousand dollar you don't actually have a$ thousand dollar you you actually have a you have a you have a an IOU for $1,000 and that IOU is like you can the contract that you have when you sign the

t's and C's says I can get this thousand on demand but actually they don't actually have that thousand necessarily they have a fraction of that that is available on demand because what happens is most of the balances that are in banks are actually credit money it's money that is created by the Banks so Banks themselves are the money printers meaning they create the money and they and they do that by taking risk and they say hey I think that this guy wants to build this building he's going to build the building I think it I predict it's going to be eventually occupied and he's going to collect rent and you he he'll pay me back over 10 years um and like I I'm gonna have now put that risk in my books and so you have kind of um

fractionally Reserve money and and that that kind of broader M2 calculation of money um is on a global basis it's like a hundred trillion dollars so the Tam of of what I call Legal electronic money which is you know kind of the combination of like central bank reserve money uh and then it's you know money that is essentially held in funds that are buying buying like short-term government debt money market funds but the vast majority of it is is Bank credit money and so we don't really differentiate all those things we just think oh it's kind of fungible um and it's designed to be fungible but actually it's it's not because you're you're you're you're dealing with all

this risk and so but like fundamentally that's the architecture and then when money moves it's siloed to a given country uh it's it's siloed to a specific set of typically private sector built uh technologies that kind of synchronize these databases between institutions and then ultimately synchronized down to that home database like that's sitting with with with with the FED um and that's like big picture what the architecture looks like H I would love to uh I would have loved to see your your uh pitch deck when you guys were raising it's like what's the you know the classic Tam deck um Tam 100 trillion no well so check this out right The Tam of legal electronic

money is a hundred trillion dollars yeah and this is actually a good segue back to your original question so the Tam of legal electronic money is hundred trillion doll and that is kind of that exists that's in motion and is being utilized in the economy and that's a that's an extraordinary amount and that's in many currencies that's not just us dollar but that's the dollar denominated value of it and then there's another set of Tams which are you know the the actual use of that legal electronic money so there are all these utilities that utilize it so for example um crypto markets you know they they are crypto markets is like a I don't know any given day two2 and a half trillion

dollar market that utilizes some version of that that money um retail payments is like a you know trillion dollar of revenue from the whole stack of Revenue that's generated for retail payments you know there's um you know $130 billion dollar a year of B2B um electronic payments that's a huge volume um and then there's fees and other things that that come from that Capital Market trans transactions which are in the quadrillions between CH you know trades on on on exchanges currencies Commodities uh you know stock markets and and that's like High Velocity money that is used in those markets um and um

so the the utility part of it which is sort of the the actual use of that in settlement uh in some way is an extraordinary large market in terms of the revenue generated by those utilities and so that is definitely up for grabs uh in a lot of ways the actual money stored and sort of what's the form factor of the money stored is up for grabs and then on the other hide the the the Utility side um that that utilizes that is up for grab so it's a massive it's a massive Tam and I think the meta and uh I think like this is like the internet um and to your to your ear point which is like there's internet communication systems and they're

massive now like the you know I know what it is how many people are on the internet four billion five billion I don't know what the total number is but they are all using some software-based internet utility where they can do direct peer-to-peer text voice Video Communications and those software utilities are run by global scale internet technology platform utility companies there's media that's internet-based and those are you know increasingly those internet media platforms are run by these very large scale internet platform utility companies from Tik Tok to snap insta to Netflix to YouTube Etc and and versions in China that are different right so these are these huge scale utilities and and we've seen this in information

publishing in Communications in media software distribution right Cloud uh cloud and SAS which is like how all software happens in the world moved from Legacy models of how software was created distributed run to this internet native utility model and so you have the core platform utilities that provide that infrastructure and then you've got layer upon layer that are built up on that that reach the enduser so you've had this essentially replacement of major fundamental infrastructures of society you've had this replacement with software built on the open internet um and and built typically on you know you know a mixture of of decentralized and

centralized architectures and what got me SOC excited about founding Circle 11 years ago was it was very clear to me that the the the base layer of money could actually be expressed natively as like a native data type on the internet just like all other forms of information are native to the internet now that you could have dollars that are natively defined to the internet and and the belief was that blockchain networks which is the fundamental Innovation that made this digital currency concept possible um that those would eventually

reach scale that you know back in 2012 2013 you're talking 7 TPS no extensibility very little through like Bitcoin network was not capable of a lot still not it's like internet pre 2002 Broadband dial up it's 144 modems right it's like dial up it's like 144 modems right but you could I could see very clearly that this is this is going to play out it's open software it's open software it's open source it's open protocols it's going to be continuous innovation Cycles in the in the open that we've sort of seen with other internet software Stacks we're going to see that again and so our view is that you could build an HTTP for money you could build an HTTP a protocol for

dollars on the internet we thought it would probably take four or five years before that was technically possible so that was back in 2013 it really did take that long until ethereum was effectively in beta and and we could get Regulators comfortable that we could issue electronic money in the form of a stable coin under payment system law in the US which we were able to do and so usdc was born out of that but it was the basic idea at the start but coming back to your very first question like in a world where these networks scale uh and you have like the throughput of the you know internet scale kind of throughput and you can represent something that is as close as possible to what I think of as that that

Oracle database that the New York fed has like a government obligation money kind of as close as possible to that that that would be the ideal form of money for the internet because everyone would know this is the safest thing possible like I'm not taking and and it would be the highest velocity money ever created and this is to your very first question you know internet digital currency on open networks inherits the the physics of the internet and and so you know if you if you hear uh you know uh toly talk about salana he'll talk about like our goal is to basically like enable like um you know effectively like blockchains at the

speed of light and and so the physics of the internet is essentially what is the physics of the internet the physics of the internet is like the the capacity of the endpoint kind of high performance computer nodes and the networks that they're connected to and the ability to synchronize State across those and you know I could see and I and I believe this like we're hitting that and what that will mean is that the co the marginal cost of storing and moving value will go to zero it will go to something approaching zero and and and when you have the marginal cost of storing and moving value go to zero money velocity can really explode and because the the cost of utilizing the

money has just gone to zero and it's the exact same thing that happened with the internet we had you know information publishing the cost went to zero the amount of information published went like a million x the cost of communicating asynchronously with text email uh you know other other messaging right went to zero and so the amount of Communications in the world million x right um and and and on and on media published Communications activity even things like software created and distributed if you look at the net World output of software from 1995 when the web sort of came online to today like netor output of software has gone off

the charts we're producing more software than we ever have and now we have ai rating software it's just going completely hocky so money will go through the same transformation and and so when we come back to the Tam and we come back to thinking about this at size is like wow what happens if money velocity means that the amount of transactions that can happen in the world go up a THX from where they are today so the transaction volumes that we even talk about with dollars today are are actually probably extremely small compared to what they will be when this technology takes hold and that's exciting because money moving in the economy is what creates economic value

and it's it's it's one of the reasons why our mission statement as a company from day one has been to raise global economic Prosperity through the frictionless exchange of value and the idea is like if you can actually take all the friction out of exchanging value and I don't just mean payments I mean more structured forms of value exchange that's borrowing lending contracts but if you can take that cost down and you can increase that efficiency and velocity you will create net new economic output and that's what central Bankers think about they think about money velocity the the money multipliers and interest rates are a way to kind of control money velocity and money multipliers but now we have a technological Revolution that can

actually have a huge contributing uh role in in shaping money velocity and economic outcomes for everyone and that's what's exciting about this to me Jeremy on that point um I know you guys spend a lot of time talking to you know regulators and how much of it is they agree with you on that premise but they don't want to perhaps they fear losing that control um you know because right now they have discretion right I mean certainly like the market run does its thing but crypto is sort of another element that perhaps is introduces a level of uncertainty for them that makes them nervous or cautious to embrace it yeah I mean look there there's a lot of

of newness there's a lot of uncertainty there's a lot of um Technical and operational risk um there you know in many ways right this this technology is is is um is is still fragile in many respects and so I think their their kind of reticence around some of this is is is Justified right you know you if you're if you're talking about global scale utilities that power uh like huge uh percentages and volumes of the world's economic activity you you'd want uh to to be in a world where you're not like hey there's these guys with multisig running a sequencer and

that's where that's what dollars are like like you got to like step back a little and and and and think about like what does this have to look like to become um infrastructure that um markets broadly defined are are willing to depend on the internet went through this Evolution itself right very early on you had like you know isps that ran hosting for your servers and and if you remember the phrase application service providers or asps were like people you could run your apps through these things and like no big software company was doing that right Salesforce was the first company to come along and and like say hey actually you can really use software

here the user experience got good enough and then Cloud emerged which was like the next iteration of that sort of saying hey actually you can run your stuff on the public internet on these broader Public Utilities but you know PE big corporations were like there's no way I can trust that infrastructure it's not secure enough it's not hardened enough I need to have more control but eventually you you got everyone saying you know what the economies of scale it's like running your own power plant next to your factory like economies of scale and energy the economies of scale in compute and and bandwidth like these economies of scale exist the technology has to get you know stronger and stronger and what I love about crypto is this is a great big huge Global laboratory of innovation of

Entrepreneurship of extraordinary technology computer scientists like we're building this in a live laboratory with real value with real economic activity and we're building it organically and and it's this you know kind of hive mind of all these all these participants and and my belief and this is just again based on 30 years of working on the Internet is that this model of out in building out in the open um is is a far superior model in the end in terms of technical capabilities in terms of outcomes and um and will be far far superior to any kind of like government Le you know kind of uh initiatives and so there's there sort of

you have to be patient I guess is my short answer in terms of the ultimate readiness but the fact that the central banks and the and the Regulators in all of the biggest Financial Market centers in the world are actively putting in place credential regulations for stable coin issuance and operation is a big deal by the end of 2025 stable coins like usdc will be legal electronic money supervised by the central banks in the major Financial Market centers and it will be something that traditional Trad right traditional markets will actually be able to utilize and you know that that's a that's a major Evolution um when you just go back

even a few years to think that that would be happening yeah I'd like to double click on that like how how is it and maybe for listeners like how is it set up today and how do you envision this transition happening where you involve some of these stakeholders like governments other financial institutions into the fold to get involved with like usdc yeah so we started by building on the existing framework for electronic money and payments in the United States so we started by building on um both federal and state uh uh laws around electronic money transmission and we became the first company in our industry to be licensed from C to shining sea um and

there are some specific licenses like the New York bit license and other things that kind of are are are kind of AD belts and suspenders let's just say um and then there are specific you know rules around stable coin reserves that we follow that are also for example standards set by New York uh that that kind of require only only t- bills overnight repos and cash like sort of things like that but we basically have started by focusing on on that but then as we've built out globally that's we've now started to layer on other major Regulators so the central bank and credential regulator in Singapore the monetary authority of Singapore also regulates Circle and so when we

distribute usdc into Asia out of Singapore they have a whole regulatory apparatus on top of us there they don't regulate the reserves of usdc but they regulate its activity and use and distribution at a retail and institutional level to counterparties that we face in Asia that's allowed us to then put in place a distributed um treasury infrastructure layer where we have for example um Direct banking infrastructure in Singapore and Hong Kong that allows Market participants to create and redeem usdc from those local banking systems easily a big milestone just to give you a very concrete example and it's where you're sitting which is in Europe um happened on July 1 when Circle became the first uh Global stable

coin issuer to be uh uh regulated Li and licensed and fully operational with usdc as legal electronic money in the EU that was a and and our Euro stable coin EC as well which has been growing now that really was a change to the overall architecture of supervision reserves and the whole way this kind of works and there's going to be a lot more of that to come so in order to do this we obviously work closely with the lawmakers the European commission the the people writing the the the standards for supervision of stable coins like the European banking

Authority the bankk to France the central bank that directly has the supervisory relationship with us and those those Regulators actually needed to coordinate with us Regulators as well to say okay we're going to have a dual issuance model usdc is going to be issued in the US and now it's going to be issued in Europe and and come up with a way to enable that usdc to be fungible no matter where it's issued and so we develop the whole supervi supervision risk management Reserve management and and what we call a kind of Treasury rebalancing system to ensure that we always have the adequate reserves under the supervisory standards of Europe in

order to to back the usdc in circulation for European entities and the ability to change that on a daily basis as as the market moves so we're partnering with lawmakers Regulators central banks to construct the framework that makes these fungible digital currency units work the same thing is coming in Japan where they actually have like a foreign currency stable coin framework and a whole Reserve model so usdc can be reserved for Japanese holders so basically you're seeing all these governments stand up these Frameworks and it's a really exciting thing because we're we're building the internet Financial system and we're doing it in partnership with governments with banks with the trafi infrastructure and we're making it work

in the way that the users and crypto know and love which is like I've got my public blockchains I've got my fungible usdc and I and I know it works I know it's redeemable and I know it's it's it's well regulated and supervised wherever I am in the world so that's really it's evolving in that way can we can we touch briefly on the reserves um for Europe in particular like are you referencing Like bosle rules which banks you know need to have a certain Capital you know reserves to um base on however much assets they have or is this a different framework that they're holding you to so MAA has very specific Capital rules around stable coins um so

um you know B Ballo rules are obviously applied Capital requirements Equity Capital requirements Andor cash uh cap capital requirements that are against all of the risks including obviously the balance sheet risk uh liquidity risk Market risk everything that goes into a bank which is much much higher risk um so um in in the EU the current regulations have a 3% Capital requirement uh held against reserves uh for European persons and so we we meet those Capital requirements obviously um and um uh you know the payment stablecoin act that is in front of Congress right now would Grant the

Federal Reserve the ability to to uh determine the appropriate uh Capital requirements for stable coin issuers uh for example um and um and if it was delegated down to say like a state like New York they would also have the ability to tailor the capital requirements uh to uh to to the institution um and and I think tailored uh and risk-based standards work we just published our chief Economist Gordon Lea just published a very very detailed uh framework for Capital asset treatment uh uh for central banks with regards to stable coins it's a it's an outstanding framework um that we that we developed

he developed I should say um and is now in the public domain uh We've contributed that to bosel to the FSB and we we share it with central banks everywhere um but I think it really looks at specifically the risks uh involved in stable coin issuing um and and and in reserve models that are you know ba based around things like t- bills repos and cash what are the risks how do you think about Capital um and liquidity and Market risk and then operational risk that has to do with a multi-chain deployment and the risks of of networks going down and the risks of of you know actual key material storage for minting and burning and like there's a whole bunch of stuff that's specific

to a stable coin operator that need to be considered when you think about the risk treatment and and kind of capital treatment that's needed for an issuer let's talk cbdcs for a second Jeremy as we're touching on like governments and circles interaction with them will do you think the US government will launch a cbdc should they launch a cbdc and what would circle's interaction with them be is it a competitor or a partner yeah so a few things on that I think first there there appears to be zero appetite in the United States for a retail cbdc um there's sort of zero appetite at a political level um and I I don't know that there's there's an appetite at at a at a retail level as well and so you have to get through the

political appetite to to ultimately do it and and then it's you know it's a long-term thing um my my view is is um is is this um just like your first question which is like what's the architecture of the dollar well if the architecture of the dollar is like a cluster of Oracle SQL databases and FTP servers and text files and like you know old you know minicomputers like I I would like to see that improved like that should be that should be built on cryptographic uh Primitives it should be built on consensus algorithms it should be built on distributed ledgers it should be it should be it should be

modernized to the best architecture that we know and that that is that is an infrastructure upgrade that I'd like to see the United States make at a wholesale Central Bank infrastructure level that should be it and so if me Circle if I'm say facing the fed and I'm holding value with the fed and I'm backing my stable coins with Reserves at the FED in some future State I would want to face them using crypto infrastructure not FTP servers and like old old old databases like so I want to see that improve and that Improvement would benefit the whole financial system like at a wholesale level I think that's important and I think that work and that research actually does continue to go on

in places like the New York Fed so I do think that that Pursuit is is a worthwhile Pursuit but the intermediation of economic activity and the innovation in terms of the delivery of how that gets into the hands of businesses consumers and households and financial institutions that needs to be private sector L the pace of innovation and technology is going to be relentless competition is going to be relentless Improvement is going to be constant and you really this is the division of labor right between the public sector and the private sector very clearly the private sector is going to have a pace of innovation uh that is is far greater and will be how this you

know when you think about the transformation that the internet delivered in Communications and media and Retail and software and so many other things um if if that same kind of transformation is going to become possible in our economy and our economic system you want that private sector um to to be doing that but you need really good you know you need good regulatory models and supervisory models to construct that yeah okay let's take it back to the kind of first question I I asked at the beginning about like okay stable coins increase velocity of money how will that change the internet the thing I want to try to pull out of you is like I know it's an I know it's a question that almost can't be answered because what the internet did for information it made it free and instantaneous I think our

belief the three of us is that crypto will do the same for for Value transfer there was no way to predict that by putting a GPS on your phone you would yeah you would get Uber or you know by putting a camera on your phone you would get Snapchat and Instagram I I get there's no way to predict that but maybe tell us your not one two three year prediction for you know approvals in Europe and things like that but like your five to 10 to 15 year as as much as you possibly can yeah yeah so so You' probably heard me say like you can't predict it just like you can't predict what apps got built on phones and stuff yeah so that is definitely true so I I think um so here's what I think the the frictionless movement of

of of money and basically like taking the cost out of moving money is a big deal and and that in and of itself will will grow just transaction volumes and and the speed with which commercial and financial activity can happen I think that's inevitable uh and and we're at the very front edge of the of the curve um of that happening and I think that is a five to 10 year kind of thing that that that very steep curve of kind of money velocity and and economic activity but the really exciting thing is is actually what happens when machines can intermediate value exchange where commercial relationships

Commerce relationships labor relationships Financial relationships can be codified in code literally and deployed on open public transparent compute infrastructure AKA public blockchains in the form of smart contracts and you can start to have uh you know really powerful forms of intermediation that take place with that very safe base layer of money and it's sort of machine driven uh economic coordination that is the Breakthrough and that is the fundamental breakthrough

of blockchains that's actually when I when I talk about like Circle we're just hitting our 1.0 which is we finally got the HTTP for dollars on the Internet working and it basically you can move it frictionlessly that's like 1.0 2.0 is the mediation of much more Rich forms of value exchange that exist in the real economy and so that is taking more traditional Primitives of the financial sector and bringing them onchain and so we we we're already accelerating into that defi is that defi is onchain financial Market Primitives borrowing lending options Exchange you know uh uh

Futures derivatives like we we're taking these Primitives now I want to start layering in other assets and I want to start laying an intermediation of those using those Primitives that's when it becomes extremely powerful or I want to build a corporation where I'm able to enter into labor relationships flexibly globally and have the the labor contract and the economic contract of the labor contract manifest in smart contracts executed on chain with transparency for everyone with more efficient participation and delivery I want to have my rights as a stakeholder in an

organization expressed on chain and I want to be able to have that also be something that I can uh take advantage of to conduct value exchange economically so it's when we start taking The Primitives of what corporations are The Primitives of what uh markets are uh and and I think something as basic as the time value of money which is effectively you know savings and lending just broadly as a concept if we can actually bring The Primitives of the time value of money on chain as as as composable building blocks like you can do extraordinary things and so like I think we're seeing the the early incarnations of this in in

defi um but in 5 to 10 years um again like the the the amount of invention that we're going to see in machine mediated Commerce and finance is GNA I I think be off the charts and I think you know there is an AI Dimension to this as well because I do think that AI will be able to spawn and produce contracts uh that are you know auditable verifiable um in in powerful ways and and those a and AI agents will then intermediate on top of those spawned machines that are deployed on these networks and we'll be able to do it

transparently and safely and you know stablecoin will be the kind of preferred uh you know unit of account um and medium of Exchange in that context and so there's kind of a velocity curve of of kind of innovation that is both developer-led and and then compounding text that come alongside it um that that we you know that we have to to look forward to as well um you know and I'm happy to go anywhere on that question but I think as I said I think even just the basics of how can credit unsecured credit you know real real risk-taking in the economy unsecured credit how can unsecured credit move on chain is one of the biggest opportunities that exists in the world

and it you know when you look at that hundred trillion dollars of legal electronic money so much of that is credit money and it's levered Capital based models for for that if you had full Reserve money and you had a super efficient credit inter remediation engines um for unsecured lending like that to me is just an extraordinary uh large opportunity and and and growth um that that will be you know kind of like the engines that have powered uh these other industry Transformations with the internet how do you envision that working um I think I agree with you like defi is not a very Capital efficient system and I think that's one of the things you keep hearing like it it needs to be over collateralized or fully collateralized because a whole host of

reasons um historically credit has been enforced with violence or the perceived um perceived sense of violence meaning there's there's a government that can step in there's a legal framework yeah so there's been attempts at this but how do you conceptually how do you envision under like unsecured credit coming on can be in a lot of ways I think um so first uh we have a model today of private credit and actually private credit has been growing dramatically over the past uh you know decade or two and um that private credit uh tends to be at the uh upper end of the economic

system and tends to be um you know the the providers of the underlying funds for the private credit I they're quite varied uh but they're all you know you know institutional High net worth it's like like I as like uh you know I'm a let's say I'm a kid out of college with 100K salary like I can't put money into Apollo like that's just not available to me um uh but but PRI private credit has become very significant and that's very different than Bank credit um and it in a sense it is a full Reserve model right you're you're taking funds and then you're lending those funds funds and you have spe a specific return on on investment they expect from that the the

the credit instruments that you're you're purchasing into your fund um so you you have a model like that and one could imagine a private credit Market that exists in an onchain capacity so I think that's very much something one could imagine and there are really interesting protocols that are doing this today right we've seen attempts at doing this with things like Maple Goldfinch creditex um you know uh uh Huma Finance there are a number of really interesting players that are doing things in this space and and we've invested actually in a number of these because we we're we're very bullish on

the concept but a private credit Market you know first you can imagine an infrastructure that is generalized where you know anyone who is legally able to stand in the middle of of people who Supply capital and people who borrow Capital that could be a bank that could be a private credit fund that could be uh you know uh some some sort of dealer right there's a lot of different imaginable structures but you can also Imagine like a permissionless uh uh pool models that that do this where at least there's some um you proof of of uh you know I'm a I'm a real person or I'm in good standing Etc like different dials that you can turn on that but

effectively my my fundamental belief is that um the internet is extraordinarily good at um at at supporting longtail markets and I've been saying saying this on a number of different interviews but like Chris Anderson the editor of wired wrote this famous piece the long tale it was around web the birth of web 2 and and the longtail just internet platforms because of their efficiency and the efficiency of information and their global scale um Can can kind of match you know essentially buyers and

suppliers on a market or creators and viewers or whatever you know participants you want it can it can go super super Niche and it can go way down the tail and you see this in almost every major platform that the internet has built at scale and why can't we have that for credit and debt like why can't we have super longtail Credit in debt Capital markets we should be able to we have some like kind of I think kind of bulky ways that we do this today like credit cards or uh you know um you know kind of uh real estate financing um you know but at a business level at a small

business level at a medium-sized business level at a household level an individual level we should be able to have like very very efficient markets where the credit um decisions and I know part of your question was the government piece here too but where credit decisions are fundamentally made either by a machine or they're made by a machine assisted by a a a a qualified participant to to to do that and where the credit pools themselves may have risk and so if it's a you you've got you you've got suppliers of capital that are sophisticated I.E qualified investors whatever you want to give as a categorization well they can lose all

their money because they're sophisticated right um and if you have say more General like retail um those protocols can provide Insurance pools and those Insurance pools can provide a I mean you know FDIC is just is Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation that was the answer to the Ron on banks issue there was a different answer which was full Reserve banking uh which is what I believe in but uh the you know that was mutualized insurance right through this like supervisory structure and capital requirements and all that but like you can absolutely imagine um Insurance models including private insurance models uh where the the insurance itself

is is is is is is priced and and and managed on chain as well like all these become composable so like you have insurance and you and you know you could have that held to standards where you know retail participants can supply you know I have a balance of usdc and I'm like saying yeah I I'm I'm I'm allowing it to be used uh but I still have a demand deposit equivalent I can get it 247 365 almost like AA usdc I can I can take it at any time but underneath it's fragments of it because the cost of moving value is zero like fragments of it are being utilized in different ways by uh by by people who need it at any given time and those those kind of

credit machines are are making really efficient so that's how I see that working well I think you can Envision a world where if as more and more transactions are happening in a onchain then you have more visibility into the riskiness of a particular you know borrower you might have your salary be paid in USC through a um streaming payment like um and so you can have a another like signer to the nosis safe that can enforce not the rug risk and then you have insurance and reinsurance yeah where I get stuck in that construct is I guess you'd have to kyc people like through zero knowledge proof or whatever but like yeah it could work locally like hey you have to be domiciled in the

particular jurisdiction um and just geofence particular jurisdictions that don't have that rule of law that might not be working within a particular system that you might not be comfortable with yeah so I think um uh you know kind of credentialed uh you know crypto credentials for for uh for kosc attestations or other proofs very important to all of this working um and and um and I think you know we can see a path there um and then yeah jurisdictional as well you could certainly use that kind of those attestations as a way to kind of filter for that but one also hopes that you know just like the internet kind of kind of broke some paradigms around law in

terms of like you know if I wanted to do an audio broadcast uh of something to someone in Italy like I needed to go get a radio license in Italy like you don't need to do that anymore like this is people in Italy are going to like listen to this and like you didn't go get a license to do that right anywhere now credit extension is is a different thing but I would like to think that as we as and this is like why it's so important for the industry to take responsibility for these things is like if we can demonstrate the efficiency the transparency the the the risk management the ability to do these things you know safely and fairly um and and the like like I think we can we can see the

policy environment evolved to support this kind of innovation and and make it more International in in scope um as well a lot of hairy issues in there don't get me wrong I don't want to I don't want to you know um you know be too myopic uh but um I I do think that um you know if if we can if we can solve um you know some of these things uh it absolutely can be global scale or near global scale in a lot of cases just a last point on this um any particular roadblocks that you think might limit that or conversely things that might really expedite that meaning working permissioned markets like a Arc

yeah uh um you know or facilitating kind of like a more permission environment where you have JP Morgan and Goldman interacting these aggregators right um yeah I think um um I mean there are a couple things I think um we're we're we're we we we need um you know kind of markets and credential Regulators to be you know signed off on on uh Financial intermediaries you know building their products and services on public chains um so that really has to the like and we're seeing that happen in different places like that's now you can now build Financial s in Europe on public chains like MAA actually established a framework for that um now um but but kind of getting that accepted

broadly and and there it really it gets into kind of safety assurance uh uh you know kind of financial infrastructure robustness like there's a kind of infrastructure robustness side of it um which will help on that um I think we need um we need these basically we need these um kind of onchain compliance standards to be able to function and and our view is that there are ways forward there and that what the industry ought to be pursuing are ways that are better than the existing Financial system that take advantage of the capabilities that crypto has zero knowledge is a tremendous technology cryptographic credentials and proofs in a variety of

ways are are very powerful Technologies we have all the wallet infra the blockchain infra we have all the infra to do this in a in a way where you can present a better user experience that's more privacy preserving that has you know you know less risk of data leakage and so like I I really want to see industry lead there um and and um and not just sort of say oh there's all these laws you got to just support them exactly as they are so that's a place for industry leadership but those kinds of things are key um and you you'll see I think you'll see more and more certainly experiments with that um uh you know and we're already even seeing that today as tokenized real world assets come on people are starting to EXP experiment more with those things um so that that

is um that is a key part of the path forward and then obviously like part of what I talked about earlier having stable coins be deemed legal electronic money makes it possible for let's say you're a financial institution to hold stable coins on your balance sheet to know that it's good collateral to know that I can use it as working capital in in some transaction and and and it has a very clear uh it has a very clear role defined in the US Financial system and therefore also in the Global Financial system that's a really important thing that I think opens up and unlocks a lot and we've actually seen since the Micah coming online the number of traditional financial institutions that are coming

to us who want to do things using Micah compliant dollar and Euro stable coins has grown a lot now we're just a month roughly into that but like it's very clear that when you cross that threshold into a clear legal and Regulatory status that that traditional players want to play uh and so this is you know why it's so important to get regulation in place in the United States hey everyone Jason here I wanted to talk about something that's been on my mind a lot recently and that is where are all of crypto's killer apps we often ask this question on the show so I'm excited to tell you about Empire's latest partner anoma the universal intent machine intents are a new way to

build daps enable users to say what they want without needing to specify how it's done let's say you have an nft on one chain but you want to swap it for a token on another chain to make things even worse you also don't know which bridge to trust or how to navigate different dexes on each chain disaster right but here's the good news thanks to intense you can just tell the app what you want to do and a Nomas solver Network takes care of all the complexity in the background we're excited to see what cool daps aa's architecture will unlock to stay up toate with anoma you can follow them at x.com anoma or sign up for the newsletter at ana. net special thanks to enoma for sponsoring today's

episode hey everyone I wanted to take a second to talk about real a permissionless L2 for tokenized real world assets on arbitrum orbit what's really cool about real is that it uses the offchain yields from rwas as a sustainable solution for Native liquidity incentives real also the first L2 where 100% of profits from transaction fees and fees from protocols acrew back to the l2's governance token rwa real has just launched their Rewards program where 10% of the rwa supply is being given away to early users of the chain users can provide concentrated liquidity trade borrow and leverage tokenized real world assets including t-

bills real estate and tokenized basis trades just as a quick disclaimer this is not investment adice device or product solicitation and not aimed at us persons find out more at re. rewards special thanks to real for sponsoring today's episode hey everyone we all know that there's a massive shortage of top senior marketers in crypto we've seen it over and over that teams are constantly struggling to get their go-to Market done right that's why we're excited to have partnered up with Rena Partners the premier goto Market advisory firm for early stage crypto teams they help top Founders tell their stories better and build great non-technical teams they advise Founders on all things marketing including tight

brand positioning Community Building social media and building A+ internal teams don't just take it from us they work with some of the top projects across salana monad Bas and many more if you're a founder or a VC looking for support for your teams I highly recommend connecting with them get in touch with their team by heading on over to R nud partners.com or giving the co-founder Jeff a follow on X check out the links in the description below often times we say hey look um you know the lack of transparency in the financial system is a feature not a not a bug certain players um benefit from that meaning through a higher interest

rate or like the profit centers of certain institutions are high because of lack of transparency that obviously has a whole host of problems I Global financial crisis you can't measure risk they don't see it totally um so to that point when you think about and contrast that with def this picture of like a very transparent system yeah are there um one like particular stakeholders here that stand to benefit a lot or have to reinvent their business model um and I guess let's just start there yeah I mean um I'm very aligned with your worldview here like I I ideally right

uh those that depend on opacity and opacity and cost and price and and and margin kind of like Get get their get their you know lunch eaten um you know and there's a lot of people that sort of fall into that into that bucket like you know you see it in in basic things like why does it take three days and cost you know 3% on currency exchange and this and that just to move some dollars to uh you know uh whatever Greece or whatever you have um but um uh so I think um I mean look my view is you know in a broad way um open internet infrastructure that achieves kind of

these huge software powered internet Network powered economies of scale really transform unit economics in Industries and improve products um and um and so like I believe that to be the case I believe that will be the case in retail payments I believe that will be the case in capital markets infrastructure I believe that will be the case in lending I believe that will be the case in Asset Management um like in a lot of these categories um you know there's there's there's there's probably too many players um in many cases and and there's the ability um to offer far Superior Products um that that are less

risky more efficient um and and deliver you know more value to users um so I think you know all those categories um are are at risk if you take again the the the lens of the internet right media companies if you go back to 19 or just to the year 2000 right media companies hadn't really been disrupted by the internet yet but it was like the technology was almost there but I don't care what kind of media company you were local newspaper National newspaper magazine International magazine broadcast Outlet cable company satellite company you you know uh classified you know Pages like whatever it was whatever

Media Company were there were tons of you and now there are far fewer I mean the stories in the news just like literally as we speak of like these giant media Empires are just kind of collapsing on themselves Time Warner and you know Paramount and it's like they're getting sold for scraps like it's incredible to see um and and so you'll see consolidation you'll see fewer you'll see bigger better internet native platforms that are more Global in nature um and um yeah I mean um anywhere where you see really big profit pools um you know watch out on that point uh you're someone of course as a technologist even

for crypto you know people should go look at your background technology can be a very centralizing force and you've seen that um yeah how do you think crypto plays into that in a world with AI um and really competing against centralized Solutions and maybe counteracting that centralization force or become more centralizing in of itself yeah I mean I really hope that we can build more decentralized infrastructure here um I am a very firm believer in the power of distributed and decentralized systems and um I think one of the most exciting things about crypto

and about blockchains is the idea that economic actors um anywhere in the world can safely engage in Commerce and safely engage in financial transactions between each other peer-to-peer and uh and do that um on these on these Networks and so like inherently we should be able to see that kind of that kind of world emerge and and that's why I think like the example I gave so like these the concept of say you know private unsecured credit markets being onchain what I'd love to see are you know open-source protocols that are Community

governed that are sort of stakeholder based continuously improved in an open source manner where anyone can can build on top of these they can build on top of these freely lots of different business models can be built on top of them and where that that becomes a powerful decentralized infrastructure that supports thousands of different business models um and um you know it's interesting to watch things like Unis swap uh as an example as like a a protocol infrastructure Community govern that uh you know people are building on top of they're composing it into and they're and they're in you know V4 will do this even more right instantiating their own unique markets and um know Zora just had this cool launch with with

their secondary markets with with with Unis swap which I think was a really compelling example of you know how do you build something that lots of people can build on top of and it's fundamentally decentralized I'd like to see more of that um and and I think that's um those are those are the things that will keep this kind of resilient in in in that way um I I think um yeah so I that is my hope and you know look the the the vision of of um token incentives in the creation of a broader range of products and services whether that's you know what we've what we've sort of seen in deepin as an example um where we're kind of connecting real world

incentivization and activity with onchain economic uh coordination and the like that's a very powerful very very powerful thing and those should be contributing forces to the rebuilding of various types of platforms that have historically concentrated to become more decentralized so like I'm I'm definitely a believer in that and that you know in the apps not infrastructure debate that's sort of going on in in the in the broader crypto world right now like that's what we really want to be able to see we want to see apps that are using you know digital tokens and and broader forms of of coordination that are more decentralized and to prove that can actually be producing of of meaningful value at an end user level and a

franchise level um I really love to see more of that so I'm I'm very uh you know I'm very aligned with Chris Chris Dixon and his his uh his worldview on on a lot of this Jeremy switching here's a little bit I said I wasn't going to ask you any like business model related questions but one comes to mind as you talk about this which is I just related to interest rates we're in like a weird interest rate regime right now and I think everyone looks at Circle business and says High interest rates must be great for Circle they make a lot of money and higher interest rates but I'm curious about like the other side of this which is if you lower interest rates I mean you you keep referencing velocity of money so when you pull interest rates down that increases the velocity of

money so one set of Spectrum High interest rates make make a lot of cash flow shortterm low interest rates increases velocity which one's better for Circle business yeah so there are a couple things on this so I'm I'm I believe I believe that we need lower interest rates I I believe we need to move to lower interest rates for for good Economic Policy reasons and I believe that um you know we need to kind of do that you know uh wi with some haste over the next 18 months and I believe that that is you know that will be a very good thing for the real economy it will also be a very real good thing for the digital economy I think it'll also be a very good thing for the crypto economy and and so um my belief

is that a a a more neutral interest rate environment would be the ideal interest rate environment for a platform like usdc and so we we want to increase velocity of money and activity increase demand for high utility money and so we're building platform infrastructure we're building the general infrastructure that makes this a super super valuable and useful utility we're making the highest utility value money in the world and and we're getting developers to build on it we're getting participants connect to it we're building a stable coin Network that is a platform and a utility that people can build on and you know that has its own intrinsic Network effects that has its own intrinsic utility value and so when

you when you see money velocity increase and you see interest rates go down we think that can be a huge accelerant in the adoption of our stablecoin Network and benefit all the participants on that Network so we we really believe that that that will be the case um and so um we we think that will be you know fundamentally far more value creating for Circle than the extra yield that we might get uh in a higher interest rate environment because you're talking about a low velocity money environment and you know while interest rates have risen you know uh because usdc is far more accessible to the banking system and and historically very significant with institutional players right we had circulation decline as interest rates

went up um and and as soon as interest rates sort of stabilized uh we started to see uh uh usdc grow and then as the expectations of interest rates coming down going up usdc circulation started to grow grew very materially in the first half of this year and and and so I think there's an there's an interesting and Powerful effect there um and um we'll obviously have the benefit of a full a couple of full Cycles uh to help us better understand this uh as we go forward Jeremy on that point is the dynamic the case where like most of the usdc and correct me hear I'm wrong is really just speculative related like it's it's um as more more the share of what uscc is used for like for instance payments and commerce increases then

then that Dynamic probably just changes quite dramatically or or just different so it when I think about economic Vel money velocity right um when interest rates come down most of the money velocity uh that that happens with say you know a dollars or fedwire dollars let's just call call them that um is actually speculative right so the vast majority is speculative the the the the you know Bank dollars and and um and kind of fedwire dollars are like have a far more speculative use ratio than stable coins do today like 98% of the activity is speculative that's a good point and and so you know growth in markets activity which is a sort of risk

on model where people want to um they're not satisfied with 3% and they want to invest in assets that they believe will return a higher uh return than 3% that is a huge use of capital in the world and so the velocity of of of capital in in capital markets themselves um is a driver for for growth usdc for sure at the same time growth in sort of velocity of money in commercial transactions and in demand for um settlement in commercial transactions also increases as you have a lower interest rate environment as well and so we think there'll be a a correlation between the the capabilities of say the usdc

platform and what's happening with onchain Commerce and finance and all these things that we've talked about there'll be a correlation between that and usdc growth and adoption and you know interest rates will certainly play a role in it but I I also think we're just continuing to build out the utility irregardless of Market cycle as well Jeremy there are a few uh other stable coins that launched in the last year or two that rolled out they're like yield bearing Stables so they like native yield on the stable have you guys ever like Mountain protocol is one of these that we had on Empire have you guys ever thought about passing the net interest margin onto users as a way to either dominate the market or steal market share from competitors or whatever that may be like what's the calculation like

in your head there well it's very straightforward it's illegal for us to do that so if we want why is that why is it because if you're if you're if you're offering someone an investment product it's a security ah yeah yeah yeah so if you're if you're offering something where people are are basically purchasing an investment uh uh product from you then you're offering them a security and so and we are actually already regulated as a payment system and as an e-money uh payment system technology which makes that illegal for us to do um and so stablecoin laws around the world like Micah in Europe payment stable coin act in the US the stable coin laws in Japan what's you

know the laws that are coming in Hong Kong all these all of them are non-interest bearing um Regulators want to treat this as cash as electronic money and as payment system technology okay and I think that's the right decision now should people be able to seamlessly move between like like cash and an investment product and do that in an onchain way through a smart contract yeah absolutely and like actually if you look at all the tokenized rwas like almost all of the volume coming in and out of those is using usdc the cash to a Smart contract to to to these you know to token instruments I think um you know H having

kind of free floating free circulating investment products with no kyc um there may be regulatory Arbitrage to go after that but I I don't I don't think that that survives the the broader um kind of kind of kind of framework here so we definitely want usdc to be the best digital cash uh the best digital Dollar in the world we want it to be that um and we also want to make sure that anywhere where people want to go between you know that digital dollar and yield we should be the best way to do that whether it's defi yield uh unsecured onchain lending yield someone investing in a t- bill yield doesn't

matter like we should be the settlement leg and the and the digital cash for that or theef one of the preferred right we we we want to be a major player in that um and uh and so I I think that's sort of broadly how uh how I think about that today do you see yourself building these stacks on top or would you let someone else kind of this sort of open market just build on top I mean we're we view ourselves as a sort of Market infrastructure Market neutral infrastructure company and we continue to build more and more infrastructure so we're building more and more features into the usdc protocol we're building the cross chain transfer protocol we're building um gas abstraction mechanisms in a standardized way across different

ecosystems so so that people you know our goal is that you know a a user uh should be able to show up and be able to transact directly without knowing what blockchain they're on which without knowing what blockchain their counterpart is on and without knowing what gas even is and they just have stable coin and they can and they can interact with an app or they can interact with uh in an economic uh transaction so we want build the infrastructure on top of open networks to do that and we want to make that widely available to developers um and and you know abstract away a lot for developers to do that um we do have developer products that we monetize like our programmable wallets which are a way to build like smart wallets and self-

custody wallets and developer controlled wallets or cross chain like we do monetize some of these services for developers but when I think about like all of the stuff that needs to be built in terms of you know abstraction for businesses abstractions for end users financial markets infrastructures like those should all be built out uh on chain and they are I mean um I think we we definitely do we have Circle Ventures we make investments uh uh very small minority Investments um in projects and teams that are doing Innovative things on chain um or or with products and services that that take advantage of some of this technology um but you know we do view ourselves as a platform company uh we're our principal objective is for people to build stuff on top of

what we do uh if you didn't like the uh net interest margin question Jeremy you you definitely will not like my next one which is uh as a Founder in crypto I think there's a lot of folks who I mean are basically waiting for the IPO markets to open up and I'm I'm sure you can't share too much but I will say it's like it's all eyes right now on Circle and Kraken and I really don't know where we had Dave Ripley from Kraken on the Pod and he was saying I think what he can say about this but can you just tell us like again I'm I'm sure you're not allowed to talk too much about it but like what are your thoughts on going public and IPO and things like that yeah so I can't obviously comment on any specific regulatory process that we have

going on um but uh what I can say is this um we are very focused on becoming a global us-listed publicly traded company uh we're committed to that and and we think it's really really important to the growth of circle um and you know what what I would say is we have built our brand and we have built our products uh very much around trust and transparency and accountability and that's that's a big part of how people think about us and as we think about this next chapter in our growth as we go from the early adopter phase of this technology to the mainstream adoption

phase of this technology we believe that being a publicly traded company in the US will increase the trust increase the transparency will be holding us to the highest governance standards ethical standards and forms of public accountability that can exist for any Corporation in the world and that's value that's valuable for us and it's valuable to the stakeholders if you're a counterparty facing usdc you're a counterparty facing Circle and whatever where wherever you are in the world having that amount of of of transparency and accountability is going to be really important so we just think it's it's just part of continuing what we've done as a private company and tried to be exemplary as a private company and just doing that in an even bigger and more

important way so it is definitely a focus for us and and we uh we fully intend uh to become a US listed company yeah I have two closing questions Jeremy if you could entertain them and we've been going on for an hour um I guess the first one is what has surprised you the most in crypto what is surprised me the most in crypto I mean I guess like um I um meme coins and nfts I mean like any particular one or just the phenomenon no just the whole the whole the whole phenomenon uh and the way in which those phenomenon emerged and were popularized like I I

just those were not things that I anticipated um and you know and I I can make arguments about the good and the bad nft to me is actually a very important technology very important utility nfts as a pattern is like critical in a ton of of different ways and and it's interesting I mean even even memes are you know kind of affinity Affinity relationships uh are are really key for communities and for Brands and for so many others and so it's a really interesting experimental surface um and so uh you know th those are those are surprising but now actually as I sit back and I and I think about them like the application of those are are pretty significant if you're if you're a Savvy

brand like you're looking at all of that as something that you can build on as a okay I'll cheat as a followup to that because you saw the evolution and the growth of the internet as a level of surprise in crypto greater or less than as you saw the internet unfold um you know I I I think um so far I think the surprise is is is lower than and uh the surprise from the internet but I you have to put it in context the sort of Internet 1.0 web 1.0 I view as like where crypto has largely been has sort of been like in a web 1.0 equivalent in terms of development and

maturation and utility and other things and like when Web 2.0 kicked in which really was starting in like 2003 um and and really scaled out um from there like that's actually where I think that crypto is kind of right now and so I think the vast majority of the of the surprises which are going to come from applications and broader utility um are are that's where I just think we'll see a lot more surprises a lot more surprises to come um uh than then so far yeah okay well then that ties in nicely to my last question which is what is your favorite onchain app I have to be very careful uh none of this is legal or investment

very careful about that um yeah so I I'm I'm gonna say no comment on that can I I I don't want to say anything about something that that could influence people's uh perspective and Fa let me let I'll take one question here then to to wrap this up Jeremy which is Santi and I have both invested in a lot of companies and talked to a lot of Founders who are ear very early stages in their journey I would credit you as having the best and craziest pivot in crypto history um with I mean for people who were in crypto and uh 2016 2017 Circle was a wildly different company with poniac and the mobile app and the OTC desk and all that kind of stuff what do you say to Founders who are maybe one or two or three years in their Journey

struggling to raise right now maybe hitting some walls like how do you how would you advise those new Founders I mean there there are a couple things I mean like anything's possible but but like you know when when you're dealing with that you you have to be willing to to sacrifice things right you have to be willing to like basically throw things out start over jettison things shut things down like you you just you have to be willing to kill things um and like this isn't just a circle lesson like this is my entire career I've probably built 50 products I don't know maybe more and like the vast majority of them were not successful but there were a number of them that were wildly successful and so you you you know you you need to you need to accept

those failures and and not just be dogmatic about it's going to work it's going to work it's going to work um there's also I think a relative thing which is you know what interesting about the statement about this pivot in some ways there's a pivot in the sense of like we we we stopped doing certain things or changed certain things but actually there was more of a doubling down which is that usdc was the origin Vision vision of the company and in in 2017 we started executing on it in 2018 we launched it in 2019 we got really strong product Market fit and in the context of a lot of other economic constraints and like the shape of our p&l and what was happening in the industry we said this is this is the heart and soul of the company this is

the vision of the company this is why we founded the company we're g to double down or triple down like on that and so just got rid of every other distraction and just got focused so we just got more focused on the fundamental founding Vision as opposed to like what should we do let's come up with something new and we'll pivot it over here it was more of a tripling Down on the fundamental vision and so I would say to Founders is like I guarantee you where you started with your vision like you've had to like adapt and change and evolve and try different things is like really reach for the core of like what is the passion that motivates you why did you start what you're doing how much conviction do you have and do you have line of sight to like to push on that and that might

mean like shaving back some of the things that you've you've done that maybe haven't proven successful but the the the heart of it or or one of the really fundamental pieces of it that you do see you know really get focused on that it's great advice I love it Jeremy always rooting for you appreciate your time yeah it's really enjoyable yeah thanks for coming on Jeremy really really nice seeing your all the traction and progress I can't remember last time I funded a deal uh with a wire transfer in many ways it's a yellow flag or red flag at this point so yeah yeah yeah that's good that's awesome thanks for watching today's episode just wanted to quickly mention that the wait for crypto's killer app wve is nearly

over thanks to today's sponsor anoma the universal intent machine to stay up to dat with anoma you can follow them at x.com anoma or sign up for the newsletter at ana. net thanks again to anoma for sponsoring today's episode [Music]