Why crypto IPOs and acquisitions matter: Coinbase strategy head on Deribit

Transcript

GM. Good morning. Welcome to the Milk Road Show, the daily crypto show where the lights are bright, the pads are on, and it's fourth and long for fiat. I'm your host Jay Hamilton. It's Tuesday, May the 20th, and today's episode is a recording from a conversation I had on stage last week at Consensus with John Dustinino, head of strategy at Coinbase, and Kyle Reedhead, co-owner of Milk Road, and head of research. It was packed with so much alpha and a conversation around a really important topic in crypto that I don't think quite honestly is getting enough attention. So I just I really wanted to share it with you guys and make sure you're tuned in to what is happening around crypto IPOs

and M&As. This is going to be I believe one of the biggest themes and narratives of the rest of 2025. And if you're a crypto investor, you really need to be paying attention to this because there's so much alpha if you are paying attention to this. So we talk about what what does M&A and IPO mean for crypto? Will liquidity move from tokens to stocks? Is that going to impact crypto tokens that I know so many of you have so much investment in? Should you be moving some of your allocation from crypto tokens to crypto stocks? Uh, and at the end, stick around to the end because I ask a very important question, a question I'm asking a lot of people right now, which is, are stocks such as Coinbase or Robin

Hood, crypto stocks, are they the altcoin trade of this cycle? Do we think that they are going to outperform Ethereum, Salana, and other altcoins that traditionally do well in the second half of a cycle, which we all think is coming later this year. Before we jump in, mark your calendar, folks, because tomorrow we are going live at 12:05 p.m. Eastern on YouTube and X with Julio Moreno, head of research at CryptoQuant. If you like charts and deep analysis to show you what prices, where price is going within crypto, you're really going to want to tune into this one. It's going to be a great episode. Today's episode is brought to you by Letin, get cash without selling your Bitcoin. It's

also brought to you by Coin Shift, powering top crypto treasuries with their yield bearing stable coin, CSUSDL. Hi everybody. How we all doing today? Anybody here listen uh to the Milk Road Show? Anybody? Yeah. Okay, we got one. Let's go. We got one. Nice. Uh my name is Jay. I'm one of the co-owners of Milk Road. This is my co-owner, Kyle. If you know Milk Road, you see us every day on our podcast. Who here uses Coinbase? Come on. I do. All right. So, John, you got us beat on this crowd here. We'll find This is John Dagasino, head of strategy for Coinbase Institutional.

We're going to have a conversation today about M&A and IPOs in crypto. Where is it going moving forward? We're starting to see a bunch of activity. Coinbase recently acquiring Darabit, Stripe acquiring Bridge. We're seeing crypto companies acquire crypto companies. We're seeing Tradfi acquire crypto companies and then we got IPOs coming soon as well. Circle, E Toro, and a bunch more. Where is that going to happen? What's going to happen next? That's what today's conversation is all about. Kyle, would love to start with you. We haven't had a lot of M&A and IPO activity in crypto yet. Why why haven't we had much yet? And when we when it comes in the coming year, is it a good

thing or a bad thing for the industry? Yeah, I mean we haven't had it because well reputation hasn't been great since FTX collapsed. So I think uh there just wasn't a lot of of appetite for it. Uh and then I also think regulation has just kind of held things back. The SEC has been handing out wells notices like candy basically for for years now. That's thankfully pretty much stopped and it feels like the reputation is fine now with crypto if everything's looking good there. Regulations kind of going in our in our favor. So, I think a lot of that is now changing, which kind of frees the industry to have a lot of M&A and a lot of IPOs, which we're we're starting to see. Um, but I think I think it's a really good thing for the industry. I think for one reason, I

mean, Coinbase, I think, going public was one of the best things for crypto because it's just kind of legitimized the space. Having quarterly earnings, having Wall Street actually be able to learn about it and understand what's going on in in in Coinbase, which is great because Coinbase is also a very diversified company. You get to learn about stable coins, you get to learn about an L2. Um, so there's a lot that they can learn from that which I think is really good. But also it's around recycling uh capital in the industry. When you don't have M&A, you don't have IPOs, VCs and their capital that they're investing in get stuck, right? They can't put it back into the industry. And so you need these liquidity events like M&A like IPO so that one VCs can get their money, get their returns, put it back into the industry, invest in more

companies. Also founders, they often will then go start a second company, right? or start investing in other companies because they're they're wellworked in the space and you get a lot of team members that happen to have equity that then get that once they have liquidity event and they can go and build their own businesses and fund it right how many Coinbase employees since their IPO have gone and launched products in crypto and I think a lot of that is because they were funded through that so um it it really brings a lot more activity into the space I think it's it's really important now crypto is a little bit different because we have liquid tokens right so there are still IPO versions that we have so there is still liquidity moving But I think for the big companies, a lot of the big best companies in the space

don't do tokens and so IPO or M&A is their route. John, before we I want to talk about Coinbase acquisition of Darabit, but before we get there from your perspective, when we look at the current state of IPOs and M&As in crypto, what are you noticing? So, tons of tons of talk uh somebody said to me the other day, uh everyone is low-key for sale, which I thought was kind of true. uh lots of calls from bankers, lots of excitement. Um I think uh as we were talking about before backstage, I think um it's challenge M&A is challenging in crypto. Um especially so so how many so M&A generally occurs either you have a you have public equity currency uh a ton of cash or you can get

leverage and so the problem is how many of how many of those how many companies have those three characteristics to be the acquirer. Um and then on the uh acquiring base generally it's hard to get leverage on companies that don't you know have a path to profitability over some period of time. So know I think you're going to hear lots of noise about it. I think you'll see some some deals but I think the signal to noise ratio is going to be fairly low on the M&A side and that's okay. There probably shouldn't be 500 crypto M&A deals. Um but I think you could see a half a dozen to a dozen uh globally and that's and that's fine. Lot of IPO activity.

There's going to be with with certainty there's going to be a flood of IPO activity. A lot of that's going to be lookalike access vehicles trying to copy the strategy model. We already we've already seen I think two if not three. I'd be surprised if we saw less than a dozen in the next month and I'd say it could be two to three dozen over the next three to four months. That's driven by a couple of things. One is it's worked really well for Michael Sailor. So, uh you know the thesis is that there's a bigger appetite for this. Um the second reason is there's a lot of dead spaxs running around that are really desperate to do deals. So you have very very cheap shell entities that you can merge into. So why not give it a shot quite frankly. Um now the good

thing about that is I think those types of access vehicles um they're not all going to work. They can't all work. There's not unlimited amount of of buy side for that. But if they fail um it's not going to be sort of an embarrassing type of blow up. You lost my coin. horrible for the industry. They just won't. Yeah, they just won't price and and then we'll get to some clearing and you know I think it's going to be like six to 15 will probably seems right to me on a global basis because they're not all going to do Bitcoin. They'll do different permutations. So I think if a year from now don't be disappointed. You know crypto has a habit of like inflating our expectations and like if it doesn't go up 10,000% a year it's over. right now. Um, you know, a decent

amount of M&A deals for highquality companies, a bunch of access vehicles, some percentage of which survive and become like strong sailor lookalikes. Um, and then maybe one or two, maybe three or four really really great kind of like um, uh, IPOs we didn't really think about where these kind these kind of shadow companies that we didn't know were profitable suddenly come out and they're doing great and then we can start to see what that crypto public multiple is going to be. Um, that's a great year for institutionalizing crypto and creating more public access vehicles for onboarding. And and I think already this year we've got Circle, we've got Kraken, which is coming. Yep. Uh, I think we've got E Toro which I think is today or something. Maybe that's happening. And I think there's going to

be a bunch of others too like data companies probably in crypto like consensus. Not this consensus but the other one. Yep. Uh, the bigger company. I think they're going to probably do a combination of like your your equity type and and maybe also do the strategy type, but for ETH, at least there's talks of that anyway. So, I think there's going to be um it's going to be quite a bit. It's probably going to happen. I think it would have already happened for Circle anyway, but obviously the tariffs and stuff brought some uncertainty in the market. So, we've kind of had a bit of a delay, but I think it'll start to pick up in the second half of the year, I would imagine. Absolutely. You you and you just named like three or four great companies. That's okay. Snap your fingers. A year from now, we've got 10

to 12 high quality public crypto or majority crypto companies. We've got, you know, 20 access vehicles, 10 of which five to 10 of which seem to be working. That's phenomenal. Phenomenal. Then then the banks start looking at those companies. They start increasing the leverage available. The private equity firms get involved and then we start to get a good solid base. I don't think we want to have a a massive amount of IPOs, right, of companies that, you know, tarnish the tarnish the respection of the industry. So, so that's a great great outcome. Quality over quantity. If if if we look at where the industry is going and the future of not just crypto, but the future of finance, there's sort of three categories that are very

interesting right now. We have, you know, we have we have banks, we have fintech, and then we have cryptonnative companies. And when we think about M&A, I find it very interesting to think about who's acquiring who and let's look at let's look let's first chat quickly about Coinbase acquiring Darabit. Okay. What what does that acquisition allow and how does that change the trajectory for Coinbase and the adoption of crypto broadlead? Sure. Well, look, it's a killer acquisition if I if I do say so myself because just on a on a on a straight basis, it's net accretive to earnings day one. Um, you know, it's public. We paid about 700 million in cash. the rest in Coinbase stock. Uh we got added to the S&P 500 yesterday. So like you know Brian Armstrong, the team that made the final decision. Smart.

Very very smart. Just but take crypto out of it. It's just a smart acquisition. Now in terms of why I think it's great for Coinbase. Um and this goes, you know, you have to believe I I view crypto through the lens of a commodity just because my training was in commodities. I was head of strategy for the New York Merkantile Exchange. If you don't view crypto as commodity like or commodity, you may not agree with this as much. But because I do view it as a commodity, um the the pairing of a spot reference market with a derivatives market, both a futures curve and options is incredibly powerful. It's not just powerful because options are really really easy to use and fun and lots of people like to use them. That that's that's great for revenue. That's fine.

But it it creates a market infrastructure that allows for all the stuff we were talking about before. So the analogy I'll give you is if you want to if you want to build an oil refinery and put a lot of capex into it and you and you go to a lender and say loan me money a billion dollars building build this offshore oil rig they're going to go well how do I know that oil prices aren't going to just collapse in 3 years when you finally finish building it well you have this beautiful thing called the futures curve and you can actually go out and hedge your exposure to some degree when we have that for Bitcoin when we have that for ETH when we have that for crypto overall it allows for cool stuff to build for for cap for short-term capex to So that's wonderful.

Secondly, um the derivatives market for spot commodities dwarfs the spot commodities market. It can be anywhere from 10 to 50 to 100 times. So it's just a massively massively big market. Finally, it's been shut off to the US for a long time. And fingers crossed with the new administration and Brian Quinten's awesome guy, smart guy. I don't know when uh but we're working with the CFTC. And when that turns on and Derbit immediately makes Coinbase one of the largest derivatives pools XUS and hopefully when that turns on and we can do it in a compliant way in the US, we're off to the races. Selling your Bitcoin should be a last resort when you need cash. That's why there's Lein, the trusted platform for Bitcoin backed

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with institutional grade risk management by our friends at Steakhouse Financial. Put your treasury cash to work earning native yields and protocol rewards. Built by the team behind Coin Shift, which is trusted to manage over 1 billion in business treasuries on chain, including a Gitcoin, and hundreds of leading institutions. see why CSUSDL is gaining traction at milkroad.com/coinshift. I want to go one more with you, John, and then Kai will get you to jump in. Uh when we look at the regulation that's coming, we're going to have more banks and more fintech start to offer custody and offer exchange services for crypto.

Yes, we're already seeing, you know, Stripe just launched their stable coin account management and using their acquisition of Bridge obviously enabling them to do that for Coinbase and your strategy. How do you think about M&A and building Coinbase and protecting your moat Y when other when these traditional finance companies are coming in and now starting to offer crypto services? Yeah. So my first my first statement is and I I really I know this sounds like corporate speak, but I really mean this. It is it's way too early to rip each other's faces off. Like we we will we can I will gladly rip your face off as my competitor in five or six years when like everything's really stable. And I genuinely mean that. If we're going to

go from 150 million users of Coinbase to a billion users, I need these guys in the game. Second reason I'm not that worried. Um just because a big bank decides to get into an asset class doesn't mean they're going to succeed. Look at Goldman Sachs and Marcus. And now I'm not saying this to be snarky with Goldman Sachs, but it's hard for Goldman to suddenly get into the the neo banking game of of of getting kids to give a open up a thousand account. So, I don't necessarily think they're all going to be successful doing this, but I think that's go what's going to happen is this thundering herd of brokers that they own and they control will suddenly be turned on. Remember, the Bitcoin ETF, without question, the most successful ETF in US history, did so while not

being allowed to be actively sold. That is like telling a shoe sales, a sneaker salesman to not mention Nike. It's insane. So, once they get into the business, they switch on those hundreds of thousands of brokers who cold call my mom at, you know, midday on a Tuesday. And that brings way more volume. And look, if Coinbase was just a custodian, I'd be more worried. But ultimately, I love that these broker dealers, these I love that they're on boarding people because we're the primary exchange and all of that volume offsets eventually on my market and I'm not that worried because I was head of strategy of the New York Merkantile Exchange. I had people trying to steal the crude oil

market from me for years. um you know the the the guy who the guy who runs all this Tom Farley knows very he competed with me because he was he was the main guy the number two guy at ICE. I was the number two guy at NYX and despite how smart Tom and Jeffreer were. It's almost impossible to steal liquidity away from established liquidity pools. It's ours to lose. Now if we screw up that's a problem but I don't think we will. And so I'm thrilled that highquality folks will push more volume into this into this ecosystem because I'm getting a decent chunk of that at the end of the day. So everybody enjoy the next 5 years while John doesn't rip your face off and then after that we're friends five years for your life. Five years we're friends.

I'm coming at you. Uh, Kai, when when we look at IPOs and the impact that that is going to have on the market, what what do you what are you looking and what are you excited about over the next year? Over the next year, I mean, look, I'm just excited to have more companies other than just Coinbase uh public, right? I think this is what we need to kind of like step up and and show that we're a mature industry and we actually build good companies because there are some incredible companies in the space. we just don't really know a lot about them. And so I think having a bunch of companies and a bunch of different types of crypto companies is going to be really big because it's going to allow Wall Street, it's going to allow Tradfi to finally understand what this stuff

is, right? Like right now all they have is Michael Sailor, which like some really get it and some are like that guy's crazy. I don't know what's going on. And then we have Coinbase who is a great, you know, representation of crypto, but that's kind of it, right? And I think what they need is just a lot more. They need to see there's more happening in the space. There's more competition. So I think it's going to be a really good thing overall. Um, and I'm excited for it. If if we look at I'm going to double tap on you one more, Kai, and then John get you back. What about on the M&A side? You and I have talked a lot about Tradfi, fintech acquiring crypto companies. What's your thought on the trends you expect to see there? I I think we're going to see a mix of like

there's a lot of crypto companies like the big exchanges that have been building for, you know, 10 years that have a lot of capital like Coinbase who are ready to think buy crypto companies but also probably buy non-crypto companies, right? they want to acquire users. Uh, and then you have the other side like Robin Hood who's buying crypto companies right now, right? Just bought one wonder was it yesterday or whatever. So, I think you're gonna have a combination of both. The other thing I think we might see is big tech 7. These guys are going to want to get into crypto at some point, right? Think of Apple is trying to get into like finance with Apple Pay, etc. You know, stable coins are probably something they're thinking about. Facebook has been trying to get in crypto for years, but they keep getting shut down. I would not be

surprised. And I don't know when, maybe this takes a lot longer, but I would not be surprised if Meta or Apple or Google or someone, they're not going to build their own product anymore, but they're probably going to acquire. So, I could see someone like Meta or or or Google or someone acquiring something like Circle, right? Be a perfect opportunity for them instead of trying to build that and get the liquidity in that themselves. Like, there's a good opportunity. So, I don't know. I obviously have no insight if that's actually going to happen, but I just think we're going to see not just fintex, but big tech try to get into this space as well. The tough thing will be regulation. Is that going to be allowed? We've obviously, it's been a tough time in the US to do this. In China, in Asia, we have this, right?

Like they have mega apps where everything, social media and finance is all together in one. We don't really have that world in the US. Um, but uh I got a feeling that's coming. We'll start to see, but that that's what I'm thinking anyway. John, do you think we'll see big tech companies acquiring in crypto? I mean, there's rumors that Facebook is working on a stable coin again. I don't know if that's true. That's just rumors that I've heard. or do you think they will acquire? How do you see them entering the space? So, it would make sense, but I think you've got to have you've got to have companies, crypto company, crypto native companies that are large enough to be they're doing the buy versus build calculation, right? So, if you're Meta, if you're like you've got to you've got to have a pretty significant business for me to

think I can't build my way out of it when I've got a billion users already. So, how many I mean, there's Coinbase, there are a few others. I don't think we're for sale. So um you know I don't know how many companies I think there's probably less than five companies in the world crypton natives that Meta would think it's worth buying quite frankly. So I think you probably will see them compete more than buy but you know they might shock us. They might shock everyone with a massive you know massive purchase. I mean Binance just sold two billion uh to the Saudi government UAE government. Um so uh it's possible. I think it's unlikely though. Do you think we will see a public company buy a decentralized protocol? That is one that we have not seen yet. I don't know. And

and if we did see that, how would that work first? Would you be buying out the tokens? Like what would the deal look like? Uh to me, I have no idea how that would work. So, I'm going to throw this one over to you, but I imagine it's going to happen. I'm I'm going to hedge and say define the question. In the US, uh no, let's go glo. Yeah. Because in the US I'd say no, at least not in the next 10 years. Not because it wouldn't be an interesting acquisition. I mean, I take it back. Maybe if if like Elon Musk might have the courage to like it would have to be somebody who's willing at scale to say I don't care. It's kind of like driverless cars, right? The tech is there. What's stopping it is like how do you handle insurance? How do you handle

litigation? How do you like all the social construct and legal and and stuff that has to how do we handle it when the when the driverless car decides to plow into five kids versus two like we know how to do that when it's people we have to figure out how to do that when it's when it's uh AI. So um the and and the problem that DeFi is going to have is even with this incredible new administration in the US that's pro cryptofriendly they're not shifting as much on AML KYC. Yeah. So one can argue they're even more stringent on that and that will be ultimately where DeFi just hits government is is how do you solve a so if that's if that gets solved if we have like impeccable online identity

verification and the DeFi participants first you have to have that tech you have to prove to governments that tech works but then you have to convince the DeFi participants to participate because maybe they're like well the whole point of this was I didn't want to I don't want that. So if all of those three things happen, which um is a technology issue, government issue, legal issue, all those issues, then yes, maybe you could see them buying the DeFi protocol. How that happens, there's some great lawyers in the audience. Maybe they can tell us how do you own DeFi. Uh obviously there's going to be some component of owning the governance token and owning it means controlling it to some degree, right? Um or controlling what can be controlled. But I think that happens. It does not happen in the US because of that AML issue. Mhm. It

sounds like there's a lot of issues and maybe it's not worth uh fighting fighting that off. Coinbase Brian's really really upfront about this like he wants to build tools and give tools to allow people to self- custody and whatnot. But that's easier because then you can kind of like work with government and say, "Okay, does this work? Does not?" We can roll out products and functionality as the compliant compliance environments environment allows you. You're not paying for a basket of stuff that may or may not work uh from a compliance perspective. Right. Right. So, I know everybody in this audience is a crypto investor. I'm going to make that assumption. Is that true? Is that Is that true? Anybody not? Anybody not a crypto investor? Anybody not like No, everybody. Everybody invest in cryp Wow.

All right. Right on. I hope so. Right. Even here, I'm surprised. So, from that from that investor lens, let's try to get a little bit of alpha here as we think about our investments. uh when we have these IPOs coming, are we going to see liquidity flow from tokens to stocks or is this just going to open up new channels and new flows as you said earlier because these public markets do reach different audiences that aren't currently accessing crypto? Uh, I think I don't think we're going to see a lot come from like liquid tokens into into equities, but I think we're going to see a lot more capital in general come into crypto. So, I think equities are going to do do extremely

well. I mean, if they're a good company, etc., but I think it's just going to bring a lot of net new capital in, kind of like what we saw with the Bitcoin ETFs, right? A lot of new capital that's flown in, not necessarily capital that came from from the liquid markets. So, I think again, it kind of just grows the pie, which is exactly what John was talking about. you know, right now with all these companies going public, with everything happening, it's all about growing the pie, not trying to steal from each others. I think if you look at the liquid market right now because there's not a lot of new capital coming in, they are just this like PVP market. Uh, but I think all these equities coming, all the the um the the type of companies you were talking about that are going to be acquiring more Bitcoin,

acquiring ETH, I think it's just going to bring a lot more capital into the market. So, I think it's it's just a net good for for everyone. John, what do you think? I I agree. I I agree with you that I don't think your average uh spot crypto holder is going to just sell their crypto and buy equities, but I think there's going to be a flood of new capital. Not so much because of the new supply coming online, but because of this, I go back to this like I I I think I don't think people in crypto appreciate to what degree and maybe in 10 to 15 years it won't be the case. These products are sold, not bought. And we're about to unleash an army of the top salespeople. Yeah. That are going to be mentioning it at golf outings and cold calling and pushing out advertis.

Again, I go back to this. Look at the list. Like City, Morgan. I mean, they don't allow I mean, these guys are going to chomp at the bit to sell the hell out of these products and these stocks. And I think we underestimate still maybe for another 10 to 20 years how important that intermediary level is. Um, unless unless crypto has like a chat GPT moment where not only has is my mother hearing about crypto, she's using it in some way that she enjoys. Um, unless we have that 500 million people normies engaging in crypto in an active way. Unless we have that moment where it becomes bought not sold, this intermediary layer is still really really important. Like look at

like the ETFs. Um, you know, I'll give I'll give a shout out. Bitwise, you know, Bitwise punched way above their weight, right? Just not a huge firm. How'd they do that? Well, Bitwise for nine years has been having bad coffee in little, you know, conference rooms in Fargo, North Dakota, talking to 20 board FAS. They put the work in. They did thousands of these boring meetings before crypto was interesting, before Bitcoin was interesting. That is, it's hard to replicate that. So once you once you turn on this thundering herd of brokers, you're going to be amazed at how people they won't even know what they're buying, but they're going to flood capital into the equities. Well, and it's funny you bring up Bitwise because I was chatting with Matt Hogan

the other day and he was saying that he still talks to people that don't even know how to say Salana. Yeah, they say Salena. They don't even know that word. Like that is when you go in within our industry, within crypto, we are so in the bubble that we assume that everybody knows what we know. But then you extend outside and you realize the knowledge is no nowhere near because as you said we don't have the salespeople. We don't have the marketers for these liquid. Let's be honest with ourselves. It still represents about 1 to one and a half% of equities fixed income real estate. So so put yourself in this in the spot of that fi that FIA that real that broker. He gets he's got clients. Maybe he gets 30 minutes a month to actually talk to his client. He's got to talk about their

cash situation, maybe their mortgage, their kid wants to go to college. How do I You have to I I have that's precious time. Why should I spend that time talking about big because because I have to first of all not just mention it, educate my client who might have made his money or her money selling a widget factory and doesn't want to hear about derivatives, much less crypto derivatives. So, we got to be a little more sympathetic to the they don't they they don't want to spend as much time thinking about money as we want them to spend. And so it has to be clear, simple messaging, simple access vehicles justify that time in that FA's in that FA's world. Okay, last question. What is the better trade for the rest of this cycle? You can define, let's say it's 6

months to a year, however you define the rest of this cycle. What's the better trade? Crypto stocks or major altcoins? It's like a a crypto stock like a Coinbase or or a future IPO that's coming or an Ethereum or a Salana or a leading altcoin. I imagine you can't talk about that. Uh you can sensitively answer that question. Yeah, look, I think riskreward. I think equities are going to have an incredible year. Uh Coinbase included. I think um look, I think crypto is going to do well over the next year in general. Uh but I think riskreward equities are going to be the best because of what we're talking about, right? like we're slowly onboarding a lot more people and we're onboarding them first probably to

equities or the ETFs rather than we are to you know go right on chain get a web 3 wallet and start buying like onchain. So I I think we're just going to see a lot of the the grown-ups come into crypto which we've been everyone's been wanting I guess and saying for a long time and I think it's more natural for them to invest in an equity something that has revenues something that has like real people in an office they can actually value that. I think when they go to look at a blockchain, something like Salana or even, you know, some sort of altcoin or whatever, they don't know what it is, right? And they're not quite there yet. So, I think there's just a lot there's still a big learning curve to get to that world. Uh, and so I think, um, yeah, I I'm very bullish on

equities, crypto equities as they come along and and really excited to see that play out. Yeah, I I cancel out there, but I will say as of yesterday at around 10:00 a.m., I'm a huge fan of the S&P 500 index. Like, I am I'm all I mean, I dollar cost averages that bad boy. I think they are a smart smart index uh with with great discerning ability to pick companies. So, I'm a big fan. Fully agree. Thanks so much everybody. Give a round of applause for these jets. Thanks so much for listening in everybody. We appreciate you. Thanks for tuning in y'all. Appreciate your time and listening all the way to the end.

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