Why Cosmos Chains Need to Think Bigger with Max Einhorn & Spaydh

Transcript

it's not sufficient to just bring Technologies to Market what people actually interact with is not blockchains what people interact with is products on blockchains right and so we need to take these things to Market in a way that it's not just oh it's a cool piece of technology whatever we need to make it an actual better experience for people something that helps them do something better uh I'm not necessarily a cosmos Maxi I'm a sovereignty and interoperability Maxi I'm like an interchain maxi including like additional chains we're giving everything that we have in the next like 12 months and stuff to like you know bringing these things to Market in a big way or you know die [Music] trying I'm here at cosmoverse with spade

and Max from Neutron and bance hey guys hey hey good to see you thanks for coming up to my room and uh doing the couch thing um so yeah this is the fourth cosmoverse uh it's probably your third third third and your it's also yeah it's also my third I actually met Spade at the first cosmoverse in medene that was the second okay that that was my first yeah yeah the second uh and this is now my third because that was my first yeah yeah okay cool actually where I'm going to do I'm I'm going to give you guys the might

that'll be easier so yeah what do you what do you think what's the what are your takeaways from this year's event lots lots less drama I love it lots less drama yeah I I heard that there are more tickets sold this year than in Prior years but it it just I don't know if the space is just larger but it feels a little less dense than uh in the past but what what is nice is that the people who are here are the the trooper leevers left and um what what this is uh meant to be yeah do you also feel that yeah I I do think the quality of conversations have been like really really high like there's I think a lot of people have been heads down building for a lot of time and like some of this

is like starting to come out like that's definitely our case at least um and yeah I think like it's been great to get to sync with everybody I think like in last year's Edition there was a lot of disruption due to some of the big like governance conversations that were that that were happening like this year is a little bit more focused on like you know holy [ __ ] we need to do something that actually matters you know and actually make it so I like that are we doing things that actually matter I mean uh Cosmos is the Innovation Factory for all of crypto and so it will often be the first to Market with something but in like in the case of interchain security it'll be something like IG L that actually brings it to Market and so this is a pretty

smart Bunch they can they can pattern match and so um I have seen that pattern and uh at least what we're building with bance it's we're building protocol to protocol liquidity very similar to ig Lay's protocol to protocol security but we want to build it in a way that isn't just limited to Cosmos chains but is applicable to all chains so don't just build it in this Cosmos specific way where other chains can then e eat our lunch let's build it in a crypto uh um wide way I think other people are also waking up to to this pattern yeah on on our side it's also kind of like I think the way I see it is like Cosmos is at a point in fact point whereby you know we have great Tech if we don't take it into product everybody like inte great products I think

everybody understands that like you know there's more pain coming um and so you know at least on our side like we we see ourselves in in war time right we have Clarity of purpose Clarity of objectives and so like we're giving everything that we have in the next like 12 months and stuff to like you know bringing these things to Market in a big way or you know Die Trying kind of I think like that's a shared feeling across some of the best teams in the ecosystem and I think that that's kind of exciting actually I'm curious to know understand like if you think that that like how do we still resolve the issues around you know the Hub identity like I think cosmos's identity is still very it's still very unclear for people in Cosmos but also for people outside of Cosmos what is the path forward from here with

regards to like how we take this technology and actually make useful stuff with it but at the same time think the expectation is that people who are building with it make money I think some of the ways that we phrase things might be a little bit of a cop out to be fair like I don't think that you know like the purpose of an ecosystem is not just to bring people who are most align and stuff like if we're you know a version of Cosmos that is successful is welcoming everyone right so when people leave that is a strong signal that we're [ __ ] up on something right and so like at least that's my interpretation of it um so I think that's the first thing like I think we need to be honest with ourselves that like we have built really really amazing things but we have failed

to build really really amazing product and amazing distribution right those are things like those are problems that we know and have known for a long long time and so you know I I think um the time to rest on our Laurels is not now like I think you know being together with people who have shared identity technological development ideas and stuff is like really comfortable but it doesn't mean that uh you know it's not it might be comfortable but it's not how we win right and so I think you know it's just a question um on in in like I think so to go back to your identity and cult question right I think like the the key thing is the stack is winning the cosmo stack right now is getting a ton of adoption and distribution there's like large high-profile projects that

are using it like you know recently we had story last year we had celestian and whatever like this continues to happen I think there's no concerns about the stack continuing to do well I think what Co what what people refer to as cosmos is like in I think you were making an actual like interesting point actually about the the what we call Cosmos right like how we exclude every successful project from it that that was kind of like interesting so you know like you know Cosmos is used in like polygon and BSC and like all of these other protocols right but as soon as they get large enough they get their own tag and we don't call it Cosmos anymore despite them using our Tech right like a stuff so the stack I think is doing fine I think the main the main thing is the set

of chains and projects and people that people refer to as cosmos um has been extremely productive in terms of like innovative ideas but what we have um historically failed to do is like okay we have an edge because we have ideas that nobody else and we have the ability to bring them to Market but it's not sufficient to just bring Technologies to Market what people actually interact with is not blockchains what people interact with his products on blockchains right and so we need to take these things to Market in a way that it's not just oh it's a cool piece of technology whatever we need to make it an actual better experience for people something that it helps them do something better right um you know my thesis is that like 90 plus% of blockchain activities and will be like defi because that is what blockchain

does best and what is it is uniquely suited to do and so you know if defi is going to be the thing then like we need to be way more ambitious right like if you're building an AB chain decks then your goal should be to do something that is at least 10x better than Unis swap or even 10x better than binance right and like that is that degree of ambition is something that I think we've lacked and that we need to practice as a do or die kind of like mentality right like this infrastructure is unique it allows us to do really really crazy thing let's [ __ ] do use it you know so that's kind of like a how I see it yeah that was an interesting point you had about ambition because I I actually do think that Cosmos attracts some of the most

ambitious people in crypto but the ambition does seem to stop once it time once it comes time to like actually make a product out of it they they have these epic engineering Feats uh mathematical Feats but like when it actually comes to a product it it can be difficult um I think Cosmos attracts people that have these values of uh sovereignty and interoperability and the the the belief that the ambition that they can do something better than what has come before and that they want to have the ability to do things that aren't possible if you don't have an app chain if you don't have these really powerful Technologies um and so if if you are coming into Cosmos thinking that like the ICF is going to save you or that the Hub is going to save you I I think you will be disappointed uh maybe they uh

come around and are able to figure out how to be of more support but at least my perspective on it is that it Cosmos is this Innovation Center for crypto some of the the best ideas are coming so if you want to really build something big and Industry changing come here to figure out what's coming next but as you build it as you actually create a product for it don't just Target IBC enabled Chains Don't just Target Cosmos SDK chains Target all of crypto figure out how you can be of just as much value to an eel 2 as a salana DA as as anything else because this technology is really good at going interchain and let's make that inter chain not just these IBC chains but all of all of crypto yeah I mean there are there is this bias also for for evm projects like

how many projects do you meet and you ask them if they're cross chain yeah yeah we support all the EVMS and and and and then so of Cosmos and and Solana and other uh chains are are second second thought right maybe even third thought uh so I do believe there is some bias that is in some way reinforced by the tech not being so interoperable with other types of tech right in this case cos SDK and tourament not being so compatible with um with the evm I think that's I I do think that will greatly improve in the next coming years though

I think that IBC is going to really help push that forward I wonder though um when it comes to IBC you out in the field do you guys see a real desire to adopt IBC and you in Cosmos we're all like gung-ho getting IBC adopted out in evab and salana but is there this willingness to adopt IBC in those ecosystems you are people actually excited about it yeah I I think that's a really interesting question I think if first like a few things like the the the first thing is uh I do think that there's really interesting developments coming in the next two years and I think the two major ones are

going to be IBC urea which makes it like way more manageable for like non-c Cosmos chain to uh let's just maybe pause there what's IBC UA because I've been hearing about this and yeah IBC UA is a new implementation of the IBC specification that makes it way more gas efficient to uh run on like even networks on the ethereum L1 um effectively you I I don't want to go into the technical details but you use ZK proofs instead of like calcul like verifying the the entire thing like uh in inside the the same block you basically do this offchain and then prove it on chain and that allows you to to to know to have it like work on eum and such for example um so that's huge um the second thing that I think is like really really important is like getting

the cosmoses decate to a stage where it's like easily um ZK proven U and the reason for this is like you know you look at rollups and people present them as scalability Technologies like we take one domain like let's say ethereum and like we make it more scalable like we can have more capacity and whatever this is not what rollups do rollups are an interoperability technology they create a new chain allow you to easily and securely like move to that chain right and so this this is why like people you know see kind like this entire ecosystem as like one thing is because they're you know introuble in a secure way let's say right but then IBC is actually like like still I think today like the the best interoperability standard it does um it does need kind like a shift in Paradigm in the sense that like the build it and

the welcome mentality in the ecosystem needs to [ __ ] die like we need to shift mindset to a distribution mindset EG IBC is a great piece of technology but um op and arbit Trum and the others will not be investing tremendous resources into like getting our stuff to work for them if we want these things to be adopted we need to actually provide value by bringing them to them demonstrating why it's better so that they you know so that all the Alternatives basically like Fall by the wayside and we can show why IBC should be the main standard right so yeah we kind of need to bring it to them in my opinion yeah I think that's a totally valid perspective I think it's also important to be like realistic with like where technology is at and where the liquidity is and so I'm not necessarily a cosmos

Maxi I'm a sovereignty and interoperability Maxi I'm like an interchain maxi including like additional chains and so if there are chains where IBC doesn't yet reach but there is liquidity uh we're going to use hyperlane we're going to use Union we're going to use other things and so I think that IBC is is the best but just because it's the best I think it's still important as someone to trying to bring something to Market try to get those distribution like play the field um there are some great standards to to get to where your customers are speaking of liquidity we did a panel together in Singapore on on how to attract more liquidity and one of the things that was discussed there was this idea of bringing liquidity from well essentially there there are the top 20 chains of

which several are very have very little liquidity on defi uh most of the liquidity is on wallets are on on Sexes Dogecoin Litecoin cardano all these coins that have been forever that have hundreds of billion dollars worth of uh uh of of liquidity just just sort of sitting there uh you know what what are your thoughts on uh know potentially you know like building a Babylon of Dogecoin or like the Babylon of Litecoin and having that liquidity coming to Cosmos as well I mean we have the tech to do it we have that interrup ability Tech U now it's just a matter of uh someone doing it right and and uh bringing all that dormant liquidity on

chain yeah I had a really interesting experience when I entered OS about two 2 and a half years ago where I encountered all these just brilliant gigabrain academics engineers and theorists and mathematicians like doing all this really amazing stuff and as a finance guy I I just noticed that there's some Financial engineering that's relatively low hanging that could really help make the most of liquidity that we already have like it's no substitute for people on the front lines getting new uh Capital new liquidity into the ecosystem but it's also important to make the most of what we have and uh like Cosmos is a great place to start because it's a peak into the future you also have these great technologists that are willing to be early adopters of of uh of this Tech

and I I think not only could it help give people a better price execution on dexes lower interest rates on on lending it can really stimulate uh the economy it also really helps with incentive alignments I think it has been a really good strategy for projects in the past to be really polarizing to be really tribal and to just like feed off the drama on Twitter of like why they're is better than others and um I I I want to be a voice more of unity of cohesion of working together of including and transcending and there were instances like in in Cosmos where um osmosis and neutron had the potential to really be at each other's necks and instead of that um we were able to introduce a primitive where they able to share liquidity instead of be purely

competitive and I'm not going to say that that solved all the the fomy energy there but um it definitely helped and there's a lot of dormant liquid in these restak protocols that are there there's all this hype that these restak protocols need to live up to um but what we've noticed again with Cosmos being an early like um the First Market with this technology protocols want more than just security they also want liquidity um stride was the second ever user of this reaking and they demanded some liquidity in addition to security and so seeing this pattern in Cosmos this is going to play out in eth in Bitcoin in Soul and so we're trying to be proactive we're talking with them about it but until they really feel that pain like they they might not really really get it and

similar with Cosmos like sometimes you might need to really hit rock bottom before you make the changes necessary to to move forward in a direction that uh it really supports your your ecosystem but in terms of the thei financial engineering monetary policy is something that intimidates some people when when you just say the word but it it's really as simple as like what is your inflation rate where is the inflation going and there's an enormous design space of where that can go there are a lot of choices you need to make and Dows aren't necessarily the best in making really complex choices so um we're we're taking upon ourselves at veillance to really simplify this and come up with a packaged version of this that's really easy for a protocol to just say yes we want this and start making money with it or start getting liquidity flowing to to

their chains neutron has been a great partner with this speaking with Movement we had a great conversation with them yesterday so we'll see if something happens there and um yeah I think the the space for uh Financial engineering especially at the monetary policy level is a is a very promising So speaking about Neutron what's it been like building on Neutron neutron has been an excellent partner for us so uh when we were starting bance we had to decide like are we going to build our own app chain you know we a co-founder Sam Hart UD Vera they're they're very capable theyve touched every layer of the stack and so do we want to go that route um that would increase our time to Market it would increase our costs it would change the composition of the team that we would need and uh our preference would

be to work with uh a blockchain to accelerate all that um but a lot of our value also a lot of our Tech Will acove value to the chain so uh there would would be some tension there if if um if the incentives weren't there and and neutron has also been very generous with giving us ownership in the chain so for just for initial standpoint that was excellent um they're also early adopters of of our technology so we had this idea of blockchain sharing liquidity with other chains uh Neutron was the first one to do four of these bilateral liquidity deals so that was really great and uh what building an integrated application on on Neutron is especially great because uh we get a lot of the features of building our own chain

without having to do that like we're we're in direct contact with a core team when we need to access end blocker or various other things are usually available to app chain teams like we're able to access that so we also our Engineers love cosm it's it's like rust it's fast they they love it um and yeah I'm not sure where they set uh yeah so like this this idea of of integrated chain that you guys have been really pushing forward can you explain what that what that means and how it's different from building say like another another ecosystem that isn't fully integrated yeah for sure um I think like fundamental e Cosmos is innovation as

two things it's um radical interoperability and the ability to delever a consensus process um to provide better functionality for applications right initially in the cosmos thesis right this was understood as like everything should be a cosmos's DK chain and you know it will be better um you know some of our understanding is that like you know chains are extremely expensive and like high overhead to actually build and maintain and there is tremendous value in like collocation in EG the ability to synchronously compose like have applications talk and work with each other seamlessly in one block right and so basically what we do is we we reconcile these two few things right the so you know from maybe L Tech he can like speak the idea is that like if you

want to build if you're really serious about building the best version of your product possible um you're going to face tremendous constraints on other ecosystems right you're building on ethereum you're going to hit the gas limits you're going to you know be limited in what you can actually build by the constraints of the virtual machine itself right what we do on Neutron is that we allow you to not only have a more performant more secure VM to start with we also give you access to a bunch of functionality that can never be just in the VM and that basically is in the rest of the network the consensus process and everything and we make that available to you as a first class citizen right and so you know the another way to put this is arbitrum Solana ethereum and such like value credible neutrality over um over product

excellence and as a result of this application builders in their ecosystem will always be limited compared to what we can offer because we're opiniated about our block space and future set and and our opinion is expressed in the sense of building everything uh the most ambitious Builders need to uh make better Primitives right so like you want to build a deck cool you need the most performant infrastructure we can help you do that you need to have like custom transaction ordering and whatever we enable that um you're building a Crossing yield tokenization protocol cool we'll give you all of the crossing infrastructure you need to like take assets manage them like extra like generate yield for your users and whatever and like do this in a way that they don't have to even touch a bridge or see a bridge in your your user experience basically because all of this

is handled by your smart contracts really seamlessly in the background so this is kind of like the the thesis right like our goal as a network is to provide all of the tools and infrastructure that allow you to build like really ambitious products actually do do you think that this will happen my my view is this will happen naturally that other chains l1s will naturally tend towards integration because it just makes sense for developers and also developers want want that I mean a developer probably wants an an integrated environment where they have all I don't think that's true I don't think that's true I think what we're seeing across the ecosystem is that everybody's just redeploying the same sort of like General architecture and

fighting for liquidity and so like and valuations through you know getting a bunch of teams to Fork applications and then make minor improvements there but like you know the structure of an amm for example has not evolved that much over the last like you know since defi summer right sure we have like more curves and stuff through the inovations of like both Unis Swap and like curve but beyond this like there hasn't been that much Innovation right and so like what we see is just like people R deploy new versions of the evm that maybe use a bit faster or a bit parallelized or whatever but like they launch the same products they don't actually fundamentally like rethink how you can use blockchain technology to create these Primitives right um what we're proposing is more so like hey how about you forget about the existing constraint

and what is today and you think from first principle what can be the best version of this thing that I'm for trying to bring to the market yeah and then whatever you need to bring that to Market like you can yeah but though I mean one sorry that to answer like directly your yeah to answer more directly I don't think that like these ecosystems will go for an upated infrastructure block space approach like we are like like Sol will never be an integrated ecosystem in the sense that um if if they were to do so they would uh completely hinder their ability to maintain their currently very very wide uh ecosystem because by making opiniated decisions about their infrastructure they would strongly Advantage some protocols and strongly rug others right etherum will never do it either because

they want to be credibly neutral what we're doing is building an ecosystem from the ground up to be integrated and so you know these teams take a bet on us we take a bet on them and as a result of this re building a more cohesive ecosystem and that allows us to do these things that they won't be able to do if that makes sense yeah I mean look let's let's take an example so movement is one example where uh movement provides the stack for building your own L2 me they also have an L2 but you can build your own L2 with movement um they are I wouldn't say they're opinionated but they they out of the box like the custom or the the the the um the default uh da is Celestia and then they have this spice fining mechanism that settles to ethereum and there you know presumably

will be like other things in there like indexers and and such that applications can use um that to me feels like you know a stack that developers can come into TurnKey and build their applications and have all the pieces that they need even if it setts to ethereum you perhaps at some point they build their own settlement Network they become big enough right and like um you settle to like the movement L1 or whatever and there's also the sequencer movement M1 yeah but but but basically I guess the way the way I've I see this is that development environments um should naturally come back from the this very complex

modular mess of protocols that we've created to more cohesive aligned um pieces of technology to build blockchain applications just because it's it's a lot more efficient and that over time I think developers will choose those environments over those that you know just for the evm and you know may or may not survive yeah I I definitely with the S like the network effects piece right like and I think this is why um you know despite maybe not having the optimal technology ethereum is still like one of the and still and will probably continue to be like such a large project in the industry right because the network effect cocation synergies there um synchronous composability get like

matter right um I don't think like you know use the the example of movement I think all of the pieces of infrastructure technology you mentioned are not what I would consider integrated infrastructure at all actually yeah I think maybe maybe our definition of integrated is is perhaps varying here yeah so like you know you talked about really interesting infrastructure pieces right like making the chains themselves like more performant making the indexer and other tools that you need around the development process or stuff like uh better like Trend key like really accessible to developers is great and we're doing that too um but what what I mean by integrated application is fundamental blockchain processes that are used extremely deeply into the application design right not just we make the platform PL faster is the

platform itself is going to do things like we're going to go and retrieve information from the rest of the internet and inject it into your smart contract so that you have the most reliable Oracle feeds for your protocol like this is an integral kind of like part of the application right this is why we use the the word integrated right like the blockchain and the app don't exist separately like they're an extension of each other if you remove Neutron from any of the integrated apps on Neutron they cease to function if you remove the apps from Neutron like Neutron seese to have any sort of like value or or sense right and so like this is where we use the the integrate part right effectively what what we're doing is we're building a Meta Meta app chain it's multiple app chains combined in one so that they're synchronous composable

like synchronously composable with one another and so that you can provide the most cohesive engaging fun integrated experience to the users because now they don't have to care about like bridging from one one one one chain to the other to access these products because now they're synchronously composable you have a higher Capital efficiency you don't have slippage on every one of your actions you don't have to like wait for multiple block confirmations or all all this kind of you know like friction that you get in other context right so it's it's it's a it's a different concept right it's not just about we make the chain faster it's about we build specific processes that are required for an app to function or to function like much better than whatever the competition is doing today that makes sense yeah okay that makes sense yeah so tell me a little bit about you know what

it's been like running on um on Cosmos sub security for the last what two years now or a year and a half since new Dr launched um time cea I always feel like know time passes much faster than it does uh yeah so what's that like and what do you think are some of the big improvements that will come to replicate security or partial side security um in the coming years and you know are do you think that there will be many more app app chains using cospl sub security yeah I think um I think it's a challenging question right now in the sense of like you know neuton history and early history particularly was

extremely exciting like getting to Pioneer this technology I think was was um you know really really exciting I think like a lot of good things came out of this I think there were really like well identified kind of like um limitations that needed to be addressed like the fact that it was like fully permissioned with a high like loaded governance press to get new chains on I think was like you know definitely something that needed F fixing I think the informal teams of engineering has like done a great job at like fixing this I'm very excited about like um Forge particularly as a product um I think like makes a lot of sense just like making it way easier to launch Cosmos chains I think is like you know makes a lot of sense right and it's very synergistic with IC um where I find your

question a little bit struggle like difficult to answer is like you know informal has announced recently that they would be um so like handing over the maintenance and product ownership of the hub for I think really good reasons I think you know it's uh it's it's Justified um but it also means that like you know it's difficult for me to pronounce myself on like three-year vision for the Hub because like it will depend on what teams like come up and with what vision and I think like it's important for like my personal take is the the best outcome for the Hub is for some is for whoever the next maintainer will be who to be selected is to actually have a strong focused product vision and be given by the da and Community as much authority to

relentlessly BR that Vision as possible so that you know it can it can make a big bet on something yeah and and focus on it right I think one of the issues that we've seen in the last few years has been like trying to do 15 things at the same time and not nailing one 100% of them ex what what do you guys think is the best product vision for the Hub like if you know that that new team that's going to come in and overse the Hub and there's like rumors going around that who that is uh you know if you had to look into the future you know four years from now five years from now what's the ideal outcome in terms of what the Hub can offer as a product to compete with W layer and like all the other um layer ones

and security sets up there so I spent a lot of time thinking through an answer to this question about two years ago and it was almost exactly two years ago that we launched the cosmos subub white paper yeah my opinion is still unchanged I I think that paper was two years ahead of its time and that um The Hub would still be very well served to pursue a lot of those ideas some of them have already happened you know we launched interchain security um The Hub launched um liquid staking um the allocator and scheduler are still things that have people haven't really uh picked up um we have picked up the allocator we've like pursued that ever since coming up with that idea and I think the Hub could really benefit uh

from it uh my intention um in in creating veilance and creating this uh liquidity inoperability machine is to to treat the Hub just like any other uh customer I think that The Hub has the potential to be the key user of this I think it has a core product of Adam that is sort of searching for its place and a lot of people like to talk about money and uh it it does have the potential to be this interchain money if the Hub is able to get it its act together um I I believe Hydro is supposed to launch today I I haven't checked um I think actually going be talking about it later today but uh I I think that could be a really great opportunity uh for for the Hub but the it's really an opportunity for the Hub

to l lose like if Hub I think if the Hub had leaned into this 2 years ago they could have been like a clear undeniable winner for it they given everyone else two years to catch up and so I I still think there's an opportunity for the Hub to lean into it I hope the Hub does lean into it but uh we speaking with movement yesterday there's a desire for them to be deploying liquidity Celestia wants to deploy liquidity a lot of these other chains now want to be deploying liquidity and um we've already helped Neutron to play a bunch of liquidity there's uh the space has got a bit more complicated a bit more difficult but I think the Hub still could very much Le lean into it I think the way that liquidity has been deployed so far that the Hub was one of the first to do this

sort of like unilateral liquidity deployment to increase atam state to atom liquidity on on astroport uh every all four of the deals that neutron has done have been bilateral liquidity deals where Neutron puts in say half a million or so of its native token the counter party call it sares puts in half a million of their native token together if they create about a million dollars of liquidity on a deck like like as report yeah uh that that that's way of doing doing it but there there are more ways it really depends on what a protocol wants what their uh what their goals are and there there's a lot of like Financial engineering that we can do to to achieve their goals Spade any thoughts on the product Vision CL yeah I think it's a tough question I think it like I ask only

tough questions man fair enough that looks for good interviews I'll give you that uh I I think there's different options right I think I think there's a world in which IC could be tremendous ly succcessful um I think you know that probably looks like also having kind of like a layer on top which is about like basically like projects probably don't just want security um they also probably want for you consuming your security to be a strong goto Market Advantage basically like give me an unfair advantage and I'll buy your product is kind of like the the thing and so like yeah I I think there's a world in which like you know that can be like tremendously successful um I think that requires like a very

strong very focused team pushing for this to happen um I also think like an OG vision for what the hub's role in the ecosystem should be is like to be this kind of like proxy for the success of the ecosystem right um e you know the Hub itself doesn't necessarily need to be like doing 15 different things but it should be uh in in a way tied with the success of like this the broader stack and ecosystem um I think a good way to that like people were excited about for like historically has been like you know tying the hubs um value Cru let's say with the success of IBC um I think initially or at least up to today that has been extremely challenging due to the fact that we kind of have plentyful

resources in terms of compute because every chain has their own and so verifying you know like clients and stuff for customer chains is not a problem like most of the chains are able to have you know direct pointto Point connection to every other customer chain that they wish to interact to but with Eureka and you know starting to uh have like kind verification on like ethereum and l2s and salana and other chains like this then you have a much more like a much stronger economical incentive for there to be some kind of a hub in this network so that you can really optimize the cost and infrastructure that's required for these connections to actually exist and so I think there might be an angle by which the Hub can like really dabble down on like being kind like the prime the prime kind of

like IBC infrastructure and connections provider for the entire ecosystem and facilitate them the distribution and acquisition of liquidity for the ecosystem as a whole um and do so in a way that's value creative for the ecosystem rather than like you know kind like rent seeking like in a value ACC cretive way but also like in a way that can be monetized and that like ties its value C with the growth of the ABC ecosystem as a whole which I think could be bullish um you know I think that was challenging to do before I think there might be window of opportunity for it now um there's there there's a few other I think like another and this one is like much more controversial um you know like a lot of people have like uh blamed me for like pumping my bags by preventing kmm on the Hub which is kind

of like funny because I was 469 I was I always said that like yeah it makes sense for the Hub to have like kmm as a tool the only prop that I argued against was the one that says like hey let's do a def app like a defi App Store on the Hub um you know arguably not the best CMM proposal in the hub um but I actually think that like there is there is a world in which if all elves fails the like the best option is to do a fat chain and just like actually have the Hub like pure um having everything on its own like cosm was and layer and stuff I don't think that that's the best option or whatever I think it is very destructive in terms of like it changes the the the incentives alignment throughout the ecosystem or stuff but I

would much rather see um The Hub be successful in that way than the Hub just you know completely withering and dying if that Mak sense that doesn't make sense we don't want the H to wither and die do we yeah we've uh at least at veilance we've been I mean if people don't know a lot of the origins for time wave in veilance were a result of like Property 2 and then the failure to move forward with the vision that we we were hoping for and so ever since like that happened we've uh developed our strategy in such a way where we are not dependent on the Hub yeah obviously building on Neutron like there there are strong ties to to the cosmos Hub but we wanted to make sure we had a strategy that could be

successful even if the Hub was not successful um even given that a strong Hub would help us so we'd love to see Adam 10x we'd love to see Adam uh be have more distribution we like to see them lean in lean into this um but um even if it doesn't Cosmos can still survive absolutely guys thanks so much yeah thanks D cheers [Music] [Music]