Where Lumio Fits in The Modular Thesis

Transcript

welcome back to the rollup in today's conversation we sat down with Alo one of the founders of Lumia to discuss a lot of the current topics in the Z of crypto today such as asynchronous composability versus synchronous composability or whether Atomic composability and execution are achievable the difference between shared sequencing centralized sequencing and the trade-offs the execution layer lumio is building a interesting VM abstraction framework which we talked about bringing apps from salana onto the super chain and the ID be behind their framework as always enjoy a quick word for our sponsors and let's Jump Right In welcome aboard on our journey into the singularity this is the endgame road map for fra and frax

the new L2 out of the frax ecosystem that is totally based on fractal scaling fractal is a modular L2 blockchain built by fra with modular and fractal scaling in mind fractal scaling is based on the mandal BR set of fractal images and it explains how l2s become l3s and the entire app chain life cycle goes through its Evolution the FR ecosystem is made of some of the top builders in the space and has stemmed from its OG days of the fra stable coin it is now in the LST space the LRT space and this frax L2

joins the existing Suite of fra products including fra Swap and fra lend you can see fra fairy the bridge to go from any chain arbitrum optimism or main net into the fraxel main net Bridge your tokens and bring your FRA assets into the fractal ecosystem join today to get the best out of fraxel you are still early join today take part in our Expedition into the singularity Everclear is pioneering the clearing layer the clearing layer can almost be thought of as splitwise when you go on a trip with friends but for the blockchain what I mean by that is when users are sending

cross chain messages there's often times fillers and solvers who have balances left on different chains that they need to rebalance and reset their positions this is where evercar comes in evercar is in a collaborative approach to the chain abstraction future and they are willing to work with interoperability Partners solvers and other providers in the space to build a interoperable and chain abstraction future please check out Everclear atever clear.org and welcome back to the L up today we have another episode leading up to ECC we're really looking forward to that and seeing many of you guys out there today we have our friend allejo from ponent

Network now also working on lumio uh which we're going to dive into in the modular VM abstraction realm talking a lot about the execution layer today um and some recent conversations in the Zeitgeist about composability amongst other things looking forward to this one Rob uh good morning um play any golf recently or just uh just just hit hitting the range I did no I played uh I played pretty recently and uh you know in Florida it does get pretty hot so it was about 100 degrees Fahrenheit out there and uh I had my girlfriend with me and I think she uh she was feeling a little bit and uh you know we we got uh it was hot it was hot I think I was

getting a bit delirious out there you know um what's that it's the tldr of Florida pretty much you're are you aljo you're base in in Florida right yeah South Florida your palm yeah oh yeah it's hot down here um Rob's got a girlfriend so it's a it's it's a bull market we we can all understand that um maybe not in the short term but it's a bull market for Builders uh lots of raises going on lots of new team shipping Rob's smiling um as as he should welcome Alo to the rollup uh as you can see we're g to have a friendly but technical conversation today looking

forward to it um so first time or no second time on uh but kind of since then lumio has been has almost kind of morphed into its own so maybe you can give us in our community a kind of a quick update as to what you guys have been up to yeah definitely so we're expanding the virtual machine framework that we're building so essentially you can build with various virtual machines the goal is to support um all the ones that are going to be popular for developers right now we support salana VM move VM and paralyze evm and the goal really is to allow developers to build once and deploy uh everywhere so essentially maintaining full compatibility with the virtual machine so uh no code changes need to be made

and they can just deploy onto uh the shared sequencers of uh popular l2s like optimism arbitrum and uh where there is no l2s currently uh we'll be building our own sequencer and and the ploying rollups so uh that's the environment that we're building on Solana and right now we're on testet on optimism and uh very soon gonna be on Tesa and on salana love it and this is something that's been talked about quite a bit uh recently at least between John charbono and balic and I know you had some thoughts but basically balic made a post saying that he doesn't believe that Atomic synchronous composability is that important um which I think kind of ruffled some feathers but a lot of

people actually agreed with it you agreed with it maybe in some parts but also had some other opinions maybe we can kind of unpack this composability question and then bring it back to how it relates to to lumio and kind of what you're building yeah definitely building on Solana uh you kind of take the uh blue Kool-Aid of sorts of having one Global State machine which at times can be uh at odds with this modularity and uh narrative so it's kind of interesting hearing the pros and cons of each um you know I think a lot of this is somewhat biased by the bags that each of the you know proponents uh hold so toi is definitely going to be a big proponent for a single Atomic State um I'm not

sure how that scales as infinitely as something like uh horizontally scaled rollups that uh share sequencer or share one settlement layer um but yeah it's interesting because falic essentially uh noted that most of the use cases that people have is just essentially uh swapping assets or sending the same asset that they have let's say a version of rap beef to another roll up um whereas uh having one single Atomic State you can still have uh very easy uh developer experience for doing cross contract calls for example uh or enabling use cases like flash loans um I do think you know all these use cases

can still happen um across uh asynchronous asynchronous environments I think infrastructure like intent-based infrastructure that relies on offchain uh entities like market makers to essentially uh in one block do the use case you would have through a synchronous uh contract call uh it's still possible but yeah it's interesting to see how you're having this very Divergent path for scalability uh especially because ethereum um at least the best of my knowledge was doing a lot of research on sharding so actually scaling the L1 for a very long time and at a period the theorem Foundation a lot of the research is now going towards uh this rooll abcentric road map um which in its current state is having these problems

with uh synchronous calls um you know it's very hard and there's levels of trust that need for uh interactions between different rollups like arbitrum and optimism for example or or polygon and um K samani even made a a post of this recently where you know he showed all the different versions of rapde um and essentially showing that hey it's like a very bad user experience to have to have all these versions of rap thief and then if you want to use them across different applications it's not very do um obviously this goes away if you're just in one single Atomic state or an L1 like salana um but then there's limits that we're seeing today on the actual uh scaling right so Solon is reaching two

to 3,000 TPS I do think with upgrades like fire dancer to the hardware uh we'll get to see that scale more linearly but at least through uh different uh environments different rollups that each of each have their own bandwidth you can get that linear scaling now today a lot easier and it's still um unproven or at least not done yet um you know scaling in L1 horizontally Beyond even Beyond 100,000 TPS right and if if we are going to get to billions of people using this stuff concurrently if we are going to have a lot of the world's Financial infrastructure um we need to think Beyond 100,000 TPS um it's not just it's not just going to be payment rails it's

also going to be uh you know ideally all the applications that we use like uber um Salos Force Etc so yeah I think in in essence um I I do kind of agree with vitalic that maybe you know for most used cases asynchronous is not great or it's not you know it's not uh it's not the worst thing to have but I do think there is H value and Merit and trying to scale the base layer as much as possible because even then it still relies it still gives you a good base for everything that can come on top in uh similarly to us deploying on Solana and L2 bring in a lot of the same uh architecture that is scaling ethereum uh goes to show that you know a lot of what

is being learned and being research and developed on ethereum can also be applicable to other l1s and helping solve uh problems for developers so they like uh customizing uh the runtime for different VMS is is one example in what use case that we're doing uh but also bringing latency down exponentially um we recently saw a game on Solana uh believe it's called magic block that is able to get the latency down substantially below 100 milliseconds and uh when you're posting a lot of transactions on chain for the game uh you know you you don't want lags to essentially affect the user experience so uh that's something that you wouldn't be able to do on the L1 unless you're working with the L1 to bring that latency down for example or have that level of customizability to add

different VM so uh it boils down to trade-offs and it's interesting and we should definitely continue to have these discussions between um you know this Behemoth of of blockchain because we can never be over invested in one thing and you know it's good to to move these forward in different ways and let the market play out and see what what gets adopted yeah yeah it's cool to see these uh conversations happen out in the open on Twitter and I I think uh this sort of speaks to like the the nature of lumia's design as well because you guys are deployed on salana and then you're also deployed on the super chain and so I think that's a pretty unique experience um and it also speaks to the you know build once deploy everywhere uh nature of the technology that you mentioned

earlier and so I'm curious in the context of these shared sequencers um and like sequencing in general let's talk about the super chain um and just kind of focus on that area when these different l2s plug into the Super chain what's going on at the sequencing level you know I I realized there's like a a revenue sharing program does optimism have its own sequencer do these kind of have their own sequencer and then plug into a shared sequencer which is the optimism one how how are we thinking about this maybe at the L2 level and then we can kind of draw the draw the connection to the L1 level yeah definitely so shared sequencing something to keep in mind is that it's at the Forefront of R&D for ethereum um

I would say the one that is furthest along uh probably an implementation that I've seen and read a lot about is espresso um and they're looking at different ways to do sequencing shared sequencing one of them and we can dive into this as well is is using Bas sequencing which actually uses the L1 validators to propose the blocks and put them together as opposed to having uh a centralized sequencer which is the standard now for most rollups on ethereum so a centralized sequencer is essentially a node or a server uh that the optimism Foundation or arbitrum or the arbit foundation essentially controls and uh the whole role of the sequencer and the execution uh environment is essentially to just order the transactions that are going to get uh yeah that are going to get uh passed

through the state transition f function so that um you know Alice sends an asset to Bob for example just updates the The Ledger so uh the role of the sequencer is very important because obviously it can if if acting maliciously or gets taken down it can impact the liveness of the network we've seen this even in production um you know arbitrum has had some downtime on their on their centralized sequencer uh and then there's uh fallbacks in case these centralized sequencers do get compromised where users can still uh Force Through transactions back to the L1 the most important transaction you want to do is uh withdrawals of assets so it's important to keep in mind that uh on l2s there is still a bridge

where essentially you deposit assets into uh this environment uh at deposit is just a transaction that syncs between the L1 and the L2 of saying for example uh you know move eth to the L2 uh and then the most important thing you want to be able to do is withdraw those assets back uh so in case the sequencers ever compromised uh there's fallback mechanism where they call an escape hatch where you know if there is some livess issues or the sequencer acts maliciously um users can still withdraw their funds so right now because this is again an area of active research most of the in production implementations are using these centralized sequencers and the state goal of each of these um has

been to decentralize the sequencer because that uh adds more obviously more decentralization uh more guarantees of liveness given that you know it's not just one single party that can potentially censor uh transactions that are going through or or be a central point of failure and uh one interesting um and very important feature that that a shared sequencer enables is that when you have all these different environments that are compatible with each other in the in the optimism ecosystem they're all build with the op stack you can essentially start to do uh transaction or cross cross chain messages or transaction calls or sorry contract calls between different environments so when you're ordering uh the block you can

essentially uh include two transactions from different environments that call a contract from let's say optimism to base uh so you could use something like uh a flash loan let's say with an a implementation on op mainnet that calls uh let's say an Aerodrome uh contract column base uh so yeah that's one really good feature of a shared sequencer which starts to bring together uh these different environments whereas right now each individual L2 has their own centralized sequencer uh but I believe this is mainly due to uh the technology itself not being ready for production to really move these billions of dollars at stake uh that are you know on on optimism Arbitron into these

decentralized sequencers um but yeah this is essentially where uh you know we want to go this is uh now I'm sure I'm sure you're familiar with uh the stages of the the stages of rollups um you know these are I guess somewhat subjective on what they should be but a lot of people would agree that a a shared sequencer and a decentralized sequencer uh is important uh for this um also I might have I might have somewhat use a misnomer here but it's there's also an important distinction between shared sequencing and decentralized sequencing because you can still have one single shared sequencer where different rollups make calls and you can have these um synchronous or asynchronous contract

calls between the rollups and then there's a decentralized sequencer which uh many look essentially like a proof of stake system or Byzantine fall tolerant bft system where uh you have different leaders that then become uh the quote-unquote sequencers that are organizing these transactions so uh the end goal is having both shared and decentralized sequencing uh which should be you know as trustless or as resilient as an L1 itself um and yeah the current state of the market is most of these are centralized um centralized sequencers that uh you know could be could have livess issues or could could act maliciously but the goal is to transition to this and you get uh benefits like for example uh this message passing that can happen between

uh between the different ecosystems so um one that definitely look up to is is espresso a lot of the research that they're doing on uh joining different rollups and having uh standards for this message passing and for quencing across different rollups is important and I believe um you know a lot of the contributions to that have come also from the arbitrum from the arbitrum team so I think we'll see a some standards come about and the interesting question that we should look at or the interesting topic that we should look at is whether uh there'll be shared sequencing or standards between uh these different federations of l2s that are popping up so for example uh will we ever see um synchronous or close to synchronous transactions between an

optimism an OP stack rollup and an arbitrum orbit or an arbitrum rollup um I think that's still TBD I would imagine you know for ethereum to really scale and and feel like you know having one ux and and being competitive with salana we're definitely going to want to see this um and yeah that that goes back to the conversation uh earlier on ballic point of view that maybe um you know having composability synchronous composability isn't that important um given that you know that's the current state of ethereum where it's very hard to do a contract call uh that's you know low latency and doesn't feel like really bad user experience between optimism and arbitrum the two major l2s but the Market's definitely going in a direction

where you know hopefully we'll see some um yeah some standards that enable these to essentially have uh composable as composable as possible and have really low latency between um calls between these different environments yeah I mean that's like the that's the result of the trade-off that ethereum's faced with the rollup Centric road map where it's like okay we're going to scale horizontally with rollups which you kind of think about it almost seems like scaling vertically because people associate L1 and L2 as being above but it's really like a it's more like a Shard if you will um and so as a result then you kind of we're we're currently battling this like we we call it here on the role like modular fragmentation problem where having all these different

chains and having to kind of put them together but then if we kind of take a step back to where uh where we were in the beginning um when you were kind of explaining some of the trade-offs between you know salana and their TPS and kind of scaling a single state machine and I was speaking with a uh a un unmentioned person from the monad team and they were asking me like should we just centralize more to scale like this is the question that they're basically faced with is like okay we can achieve this much TPS but we could also get this much if we you know this much more if we centralize more and and so these single state machines are almost fighting this latency problem of physics

where you can only have you know a message from different parts of the world can only be sent so fast to each other the speed of light is only so fast H and so you kind of are forced to centralized more with more with more cores and more machines in a single geographical location which of course has like censorship resistant uh effects uh decreasing of decentralization etc etc and so shared sequencing is kind of like okay we've chosen this path in the ethereum scal and G map as well as like in the way that like the modular thesis kind of makes sense of scaling was more chains more horizontal scaling more um more execution environments so shared sequencing is kind of like okay now we

have to put them all together and and I'm kind of seeing this as being like the next logical iteration of this of this road map being this idea of okay how do we bring this all together how do we bring apps from these from all these different chains together shared sequencing and so I mean what you guys are working on at lumio as well um and so curious like you know any thoughts on on that trade-off conversation as well and um as well as this kind of fragmentation Arc that that we find ourselves in yeah and it's they're having essentially the same uh thought processes and and arguments in their heads right because uh for example uh be sequencer or a node that can process transactions on an L2 uh faster those

come off those come with those trade-offs right so um yes you can have for example like a really beefy beefy in terms of Hardware really high Hardware requirements that can process transactions really fast but then as you start to decentralize that sequencer necessitating more machines to essentially run those transactions uh you run into the same issues that you have on the L1 right and uh then it comes down to yeah the trade-offs of decentralization versus performance that uh you know most people would would argue I guess today that uh it doesn't really matter like most people are not thinking about decentralization as an important component of a blockchain but that's it's the kind of thing where you

really only care about it when there's a Black Swan event um so uh one example that i' like to give is a lot of these uh l1s that necessitate uh really beefy Hardware are run on public Cloud infrastructure and yes you know you have individuals individual entities that are running those instances on the public Cloud but what happens if there's uh some uh collusion across state actors or uh these public Cloud providers to just ban crypto from running or ban validators from running these public Cloud uh providers A lot of them uh you know you only need onethird of the validators to go down for liess to be impacted so uh yes and then you you know a lot of a lot

of people in Solana make the argument okay then you should be running you know bare metal in your basement um but that's you know not as easy as running like a Raspberry Pi with a ethereum node right so uh I guess the trade-off then still exists on centralization versus performance but now we're moving to a layer up the stack where as as we mentioned earlier if the sequencer is compromis um you know it's not the end of the world uh people can still Force through their transactions go back to the L1 uh potentially use other other sequencers that get bootstrapped again that aren't acting maliciously aren compromise so um yeah you're you're essentially having the same the same arguments but uh now it's on a what I would argue maybe like a less important

or less um you know foundational part of the blockchain system uh that's essentially just connecting these offchain computations that are happening on the L2 back back to the L1 and you know I think I think in my opinion that's an important trade-off to make because uh decentralization will really matter yeah and you know these blacks SW events like um you know God forbid World War I breaks out or something right and then uh these blockchains are you need to be essentially very resilient for it to still maintain neutrality and not have these uh Wars of validators essentially um you know maintaining maintaining State um so yeah I mean I think it's important uh to still have decentralization that's why I think

Bitcoin and ethereum are important to continue but the innovations that are happening on Solana and apos these alternative l1s monad that are using you know more centralization for for performance is um yeah applicable to a lot of use cases and I do wonder whether uh you know if if some Black Swan event happens that it'll just make these l2s uh even more resilient and even more of a use case for people to trust um and like theoretically you could have very similar user experience on an L2 obviously there still some throttling that needs to happen to post transactions back to the L1 um but yeah I think I think we just need to think of these tradeoffs and then you're thinking about okay now I'm making these

trade-offs but which which component or which layer of the stack am I making these trade-offs on and I think on the settlement layer uh we really need to be careful of not you know not forgetting about the true kind of like the True Values of true value of blockchain which is decentralization from uh state level actors um you know I think that was like sat original Vision to have a form of money that you know was for the People by the people and um yeah that can that can definitely potentially and I mean it's it's yet to be tested but potentially be an issue uh with these higher performance l1s and these beier sequencer l2s but always having that fallback um you know is important and yeah I think I think it's just a matter

of trade-offs and and we're seeing it now happening at the at the L2 as uh as we do on the l1s coalin is solving the long term data availability problem where a lot of the data availability providers today in the modu space when you post data to them they actually only hold that data for about 12 to 16 days and then it's basically they can go into archive note or often times it's just kind of put away into the abyss and what coaling trying to do is build this long-term data availability solution which can plung into some of these modular data availability providers and provide this longer term Perpetual data solution so what we try to think of this as is when you post transaction data

onto Celestial or Veil or any of these mod da Solutions or even ethereum coala is able to provide a long-term data storage and data availability platform for that data after the time period blockchains are Billboards not databases and you know we need these providers in the space to be able to kind of hold on to the longterm data that is provided from these providers and and blockchain state this is where coent comes in they just had a nice Rebrand check them out on Twitter as well as the website thank you for being here hope you enjoy the rest of the show mantle is a layer 2 blockchain with one of the biggest onchain treasuries in all of crypto and they have aund day campaign called metamorphosis live now what this is is

it is a campaign for their liquid Stak e token M eth as well as their upcoming liquid reaking token c m e where you can utilize this token on the mantle Network in a variety of different apps some of your favorite reaking protocols and defi protocols and earn yields in the form of powder which will eventually be turning into a governance token Mantle's been around for a while we like them because they use their own form of Ian da uh they have a good ecosystem and they're growing so check out this 100 day metamorphosis campaign and hope you guys enjoy the rest of this video yeah that there's some really good points there as far as not sacrif pricing uh the core ethos a the settlement layer kind of everybody has

to make those trade-offs right as well and so you know for for more performing applications more expressive applications things that that require more performance but maybe less Financial value or less uh value which can be uh in inherently not able to be destroyed and then recreated easily you know being having those on much more secure chains I think is important and I think like you know I have friends asking me like why is ethereum even a thing and I think ethereum is in this weird spot where like there's all these more more performing cheaper smart contract platforms but like ethereum got the ETF for a reason and I don't think there's going to be any other ETFs that are going to pass for uh other chains

ethereum has like this massive Builder Community for a reason and so I think having that like core ethos at its whole is super important kind of Shifting Gears a bit to a conversation that I think um that that that you're going to be quite fond of is is something that been in the trenches battling crypto Twitter for some time on which is that like there's all these like modular infra being built but the the question keeps coming up is like okay where's the apps and like why are we not building applications and why is there no demand for applications and you know we kind of just can be real with ourselves about where we are with the applications is that you know we're so struggling I think crypto to to hit like this product Market fit for apps so you know you you guys are building a solution where you

know you can Port different apps from different execution environments to other execution environments kind of bringing these apps over maybe we can talk about how how you're seeing this app landscape and how how you think Builders are going to answer the question of you know where are the apps and maybe like what what are the obstacles just kind of General higher level on where we are with this app question yeah definitely uh I agree that with that sentiment I mean you know my dad or my my grandma isn't really using crypto um for for a reason and I think there's a ton of uh barriers to entry like even just custody your private key is a huge huge varrier to entry for most people uh but I would say the the main killer app for crypto is is here and

we've been using it for a while and it's money uh even just as a store of value as a way to transact value with each other uh no smart contract application needs to be built and Bitcoin showed us that all you really need is something that uh can sustain value can be traded between people uh can be a store value you know it's not going to degrade over time and you know we have that in Bitcoin I think eth is starting to get there also uh having uh what people call monetary premium uh so essentially uh money itself I think is is the first killer app but uh to people's point you know we want to see games we want to see more consumer facing apps uh social social uh Network apps being built um and I think that's possible and it's and

it's definitely happening uh today um Al be it slowly and a function of this I believe is also just uh where the investment has been going and even in traditional uh Venture Capital infrastructure or platforms are a lot higher Roi traditionally than end user consumer applications obviously there's um you know exceptions uh although Amazon you know I would argue is kind of both right they have they have both AWS and they have the Amazon uh e-commerce uh but there is uh there is end user consumer apps that you know these app applications these infrastructure uh are going to need and today I think it's decentralized Finance I think it's

Financial applications so on top of money not only can you just store value and hold it but now you can also trade you can also uh do uh credit uh you can also uh you know do these complex Financial products like Perpetual Futures uh derivatives options uh all within uh a computer computer that is not controlled by anybody and I think that Paradigm Shift uh is here now and unfortunately uh the issues that exist is that it's not really connected to the rest of the world so uh some uh the first connection I think is stable coins you're starting to see people being able to for example uh use usdc which is a derivative of the US dollar uh as

collateral for betting on uh the market of Bitcoin or the market of eth going up or down uh that's something like GMX or or drift um and I think that's the that's the applications that are have product Market fit today if we can continue expanding that to more real world assets um for example uh treasury yields uh stocks all of this coming on chain and being able to be used I think that's a huge that's a killer use case that uh once people realize uh if you have it all on one Ledger uh War it can be a lot cheaper to operate uh so for example Robin Hood even though it's free you still have a lot of payment uh uh pay for order flow that happens so you're actually paying

uh you know the worse price than you'd be paying if you were paying a fee obviously before Robin Hood you'd have to pay a large fee just to trade One stock uh so I do think that you know moving into this uh this intermediated application where you don't have a uh you know a central party extracting value uh for these Financial applications is that first killer app um but we do need to see uh for example ride sharing uh you know uh food delivery uh e-commerce social gaming all that to come to light and I think part of it is the infrastructure isn't there yet um and part of what what it is as well is uh the actual vendor lockin that exists of people uh for example only

being able to build with solidity uh whereas you know most most applications today are built with um you know oftentimes not even just one language uh web assembly for example is one of the most popular languages Russ is one of the most popular languages and applications application developers so they yes they could learn solidity uh but it comes at the trade-off of um having to learn all the different ways that solidity can essentially break your app and breaking your app in in a decentralized application potentially means like users losing funds so uh it's not just like a bug where you know on Robin Hood let's say there was a bug and uh you know you you like traded all your

GameStop stock uh but you know this the wrong price or something they could just roll back the Ledger uh you know these bugs definitely have a more higher impact on a smart contract application so it really is still uh very hard for developers to come on board and just build you know these applications as they normally would with web assembly or rust um but those barriers I would say are going down um you know with a solution like we're building developers can come in they can build with rust on the on VM they can build with move which is a framework uh that is similar to solidity it looks like a typescript language but it uses uh you know it's designed after rust using a resource model and static type safety so uh you know you're able to implement a lot of

the same uh Frameworks from traditional uh software development now into smart contracts and I think that's going to unlock a lot of applications that can be built and theoretically like all the applications that exist today could be like quote unquote decentralized and and you know we're starting to see the edge of that today uh like on Solana for example there's an app called teleport that's essentially Uber um for ride sharing uh we're starting to see uh games on Solana as I mentioned earlier there's a game that can have the latency very low latency so that you can actually post transactions on chain those can be synchronized between players playing multiplayer game so I believe that infrastructure is still important because it's going to allow us to build these applications that

tradition built on quotequote web to uh and now that that's there or getting there you know these these applications are getting into mainnet being more widely adopted sorry the infrastructure is getting more widely adopted now the applications can essentially build as if they were building for traditional uh web to obviously there's still some things to take into account like custody of assets um you know doing contract calls as I mentioned uh you know any bug could potentially be detrimental to the entire app uh but yeah at least at least we'll start to see uh more of these being possible and I think a large part of that is the infrastructure it's it's a bit of a trip to say that it does feel like the early internet uh you know 1970s 1980s uh 1990s but it does it does

kind of feel like that maybe you know we've evolved from the 70s to the 80s or 90s where there's a kind of like a boom uh and a lot of applications protocols being built infrastructure um and you know a lot of those I would say in 10 20 years down the line might not be around but you're still going to see some winners and you're going to see more people continuing to build and feel more comfortable building and I think in another 10 20 years we are going to see this uh slow at first but then potentially a Tipping Point of just more applications uh being built on the blockchain for its true uh value and you know less applications you know being built on on centralized servers so yeah I think the the biggest competitor to blockchain is probably something like AWS or Google cloud and um you know

we'll see that play out over time yeah I I tend to agree um I think you you know you mentioned Robin Hood and like you know basically that's what they did they stopped they B they basically rolled back or stopped uh gme trading during that Meme coin or meme stock crates right and so I think there is one value proposition of blockchain over and Beyond databases like AWS and and and and those Cloud servers where it is verifiable and so you know no one can stop your trades Robin Hood can't stop it you know League of Legends or world of Warcraft they can't roll back your gun skin that you spent hours and hours playing um though there is uh a t a a

tendency for companies to do that when it suits their interest but it is a Black Swan event like you mention on on a normal basis Robin Hood doesn't roll back trades uh League of Legends doesn't roll back your gun skins because it's it's a disincentive like they they know that they're going to lose some users in that event if they're going to misalign with their user base and so on a normal basis they don't do that but it's the Black Swan events that sort of shift uh to this more verifiable not my keys not my coins like you know this more uh like don't trust verify type of mindset that blockchain provides over a database so I think that is one way to kind of subvert

web two and cause like this Mass migration to web 3 that I think a lot of us kind of want to see I think a second way to potentially do this but we're not quite there yet is an incentives proposition where at a certain point I'd love to get your thoughts on whether or not this is feasible at at even in the theoretical sense like right now Web Two game there there's games if I'm a game developer I'm gonna look like all right well is it cheaper for me to run my infrastructure on AWS or a blockchain and I think right now we have this more General Paradigm of do I want to go Cloud compute or do I want to go verifiably compute if I go verifiable I

get the ver the verification nature of it all my users get to benefit from that but I may be paying a higher infrastructure cost for that verifiability that maybe my users don't necessarily even need or want because they kind of just trust me not to roll back my ledger so do you think we'll ever get to a point where verifiable computation is on par or more affordable than tra Trad web2 Cloud compute yeah definitely I mean uh today uh you know blockchain is let's say slower uh doesn't handle as much bandwidth as uh you know a centralized AWS server but let's say tomorrow five 10 years down the line you'll probably

get the same user experience that you had today um that you have today for AWS centralized server right just as as a function of Mor's law technology and Hardware is getting better um I think at a certain point like it's uh you know the the human the human can't even tell the difference so you know if you're having uh something like on a game happen at you know fractions of a second 100 milliseconds 50 milliseconds um and you know a centralized server can do it at at 20 milliseconds 10 milliseconds like I feel like it stops it stops mattering so much maybe for trading uh you know it can still it can still matter obviously because you can front run transactions Etc uh but for most applications I think it it'll get there and similar with

storage costs I think most of the costs come from you know storing the information um there are solutions today I think zerog is a good example that they're like exponentially orders of magnitude making uh the cost of storage um not just for data availability but it can be for anything one of their best use cases seems to be AI um so I think the infrastructure tomorrow will get to the same point where we are today and again because it's decentralized those still be some form of uh gap between the two but at a certain point that Gap becomes um you know something that the human uh you know the human can't even perceive so uh I think I think we'll get there uh it's just a function of time and a function of you know just

continuing to develop this infrastructure the question we should ask is if a user is given the choice of uh having this Paradigm Shift of owning their data of that data not being owned by a centralized party and the user experiences um the same or IND discernable let's say Robin Hood versus uh Unis swap right if if they both feel the same they both have a really Snappy user experience on an app you can trade all the stocks all the you know all the assets all the crypto assets uh like which one would you rather use right the one that at any point in time like you said uh can be rolled back or uh you know at at the whim of of people can be stopped halting uh of trading or one where uh due to the

code it literally cannot right and then similarly uh with gaming or even I think iot is an interesting one right like think of like your car right like right now uh the most advanced cars are like Tesla where you have full self-driving uh starting to be implemented uh in the future as well uh I think that's just going to become the norm like you know even your your average Nissan uh is going to be able to have this full self-driving and then you're going to like I I would personally be very weary of uh you know Central a central actor or company or a state actor being able to you know control my car right whereas like if it's on a blockchain and I know the code can be audited and no one can

you know stop or you know direct me to go somewhere else off a cliff or whatever um and then the user experience is exactly the same like uh users are going to get uh smarter about the technology that's behind what they're using um I think an analogous like something analogous is food right for a long period of time like if you look at if you look at people in the 70s you know there wasn't that much obesity people were just eating normal food you know in the 60s 50s people were just eating normal food and then there this came this like Mass manufacturing of food and almost like propaganda by like big food to feed you this like Ultra processed food and not everybody started getting fat uh but now we're like getting an Awakening of realizing like hey these like Ultra processed Mass

manufacturer food is is not that good um you know I want to just eat vegetables I want to just eat you know uh normal meat not not Ultra packaged Ultra processed food and it's just consumers becoming smarter about you know what they're putting into their bodies and I think generally that's going to happen with technology as well and um you know if you're given the choice of using X that's decentralized or X that's not decentralized like X for example at any point in time can ban your account all your tweets all your followers can just go away whereas using something like lens that's all in your control um you know you can just build a different interface and and continue having that so I think once users realize that and and we saw that Trend with food as I mentioned um you know I think we'll see

it with technology and that'll that might be a Tipping Point for people you could extrapolate that to money too like you know what do you want to be putting in your bank account do you want to be putting the thing that depreciates 7% a year because you know we print it all the time or do you want to you know put something in your savings account that doesn't depreciate it has limited inflation right and so I think there's a similar uh dilemma in people's minds when they're thinking about like consumer Behavior right right you know do I want my money to be the US dollar or do I want it to be something like a little bit harder um obviously tradeoffs when it comes to convenience and how you spend it but I think I think you're right about how consumer Behavior shifts over time due to uh like this Awakening

that we get from more information coming in more Empirical research all of that informs consumer Behavior yeah I think that's partly due to the internet like now everyone could just search like oh like what's actually you know what is this uh ingredient that I can't pronounce uh for money yeah it's a really uh really interesting one like uh the US government has the infinite mint button whereas Bitcoin uh you know everyone would have to agree to print more than 21 million um the US government any point in time can stop Banks from you know giving out US dollars through ATMs uh they can stop you from moving that US dollar abroad or or you know moving it elsewhere uh whereas yeah something like Bitcoin or or ethereum that uh you know has algorithm that tells you exactly that

you can project how much money you're going to have in the future um like people are Awakening to that I think uh the ETFs is a large part of that obviously I think Larry Fink and black rock uh are betting on and and they're betting on this sore value um as being you know competitive with gold and other sours of value so um yeah the fact that like literally now everyone can have gold or this digital gold um at at their hands they don't even need to access um you know they don't need to have an ID or uh you know have access to anything other than a computer um I think is really powerful and yeah as I mentioned earlier the first killer app is money but you know that can extend to any any application really and I think it'll just take time for the infrastructure to

be there and for users to kind of realize that if the user experience is the same I probably want this uh this product that lets me own and have sovereignty over you know the ability to use this and the data that's behind it whereas this other one that's owned by a central party that at any point in time can just you know change the outputs change the outcomes of it yeah it's funny that because we've been doing this Bitcoin uh and Beyond educational series and some of the guys have said that that money is the only use case and so there's this kind of like weird dichotomy where I think a lot of the ethereum community has this grander vision of many apps and things and whereas I think some of the Bitcoin Community is just uh just set on money being one of the main use cases so I

think for now that's like the easiest one to see but yeah I I'm more of the idea that we see many many apps I mean more experimentation is going to happen and just I mean things are things will just keep on uh accelerating in my opinion on the in Innovation front so definitely some good points here guys I'd like to zoom in a bit more on some of the tech that that you guys are building at lumio answer some questions that we fielded from the community and just trying to get an understanding as to kind of how you see lumio fitting into this kind of rollup Centric road map this this modular thesis so I think like the first one is there's there's some uh misconception I think of lumio being like a a movement competitor at the move VM rollup level so maybe you

could explain kind of why or why not you are competitors or or not and kind of how you can help movement or how you can also help other rollups uh you know kind of almost compete with each other or at least help to scale the entire ecosystem as a whole CTE is your home for app specific rollups at the Forefront of developing new tools and platforms that enhance the capabilities of blockchain Technology cartei enables applications that are flexible and built to scale build on a full Linux environment and use

traditional software libraries but in blockchain development go to cy. that's cy. to learn more about building your own app chain today yeah definitely uh the vision of lumio is to be agnostic to the underlying environments and Frameworks that it's integrating into so we started out with optimism uh essentially forked the op stack and made modifications so that uh first the move virtual machine uh now the salon VM and uh paralyzed evm can essentially compile down to re uh which is the client opth which is the client that optimism uses um similarly we can be compatible with uh the

movement stack um so uh to enable alternative BMS like Salon BM web assembly Etc in addition to their core offering which is the move and evm uh or the evm that compiles the move so uh in essence yeah we built this solution to be complimentary so that we can join the shared sequencers uh share Revenue as applications deployed through our um layer twos that we're deploying um and then very easily uh being able to use that same T teex stock modified for another uh framework like arbitr orbits or uh ZK zinc hyper the hyper chains um and essentially then we very narrowly focus on just maintaining uh the virtual

machine component uh whereas we benefit from all the upgrades and research that's going on uh at the rest of the stack for the l2s like the the batchers the provs the challengers um and yeah in that way we're in essence essentially complimentary solutions to existing l2s on ethereum now where there isn't an existing L2 Federation or network like on Solana uh we are using existing Frameworks like the op stack to essentially develop um our own so we can still um you know not have to uh build everything out ourselves or or essentially um you know benefit from the from the upgrades that others are doing um but yeah uh in essence we're building this out to be very complimentary to existing L2 Solutions and uh yeah you'll

see us um contining to build and Deploy on on existing L2 Frameworks movement is definitely one we're very excited about and and talking to to that team there rousi has been able to Garner a lot of interest around the move uh virtual machine and all the benefits that it comes there and um yeah I think we'll see a lot of Builders and so that still those that still want to build with Solana VM are coming from salana because they have those applications already built uh or Cosmos built out with web assembly can still come and deploy so um yeah very excited about us being able to work in in conjunction with the existing L2 Frameworks the ones that are established like optimiz and arbitra and the ones that are up andc coming like love it okay great okay so then how how does lumio work from a from a technical

level then let's say I'm an app builder on salana I've got this app I'd like to to to deploy my app on on um you know a different chain in the op stack or a different arbitrum chain or a different L2 like like technically speaking how do we how do you accomplish this and um maybe we can get into some of the benefits of these kind of other this mechanism as well yeah definitely so breaking down at its simplest components is essentially the virtual machines which we're maintaining equivalence with the latest uh that are being maintained so the salana VM on salana svm on salana the Move VM op those framework uh they are making uh upgrades believe it or not

even uh to these so we maintain equivalent so that teams from Solana teams from Aptos can just copy paste their code and then deploy it onto uh a layer two that's deployed on optimism so on optimism uh the way that optimism Works they have uh etherium equivalent so they essentially have even the same clients reth and gu uh and then for those that aren't familiar you have the evm that compiles down to gu uh WTH is one that's uh very exciting uh the the Paradigm team uh Georgio has been doing a lot of um work around getting uh the W client to be ready for production I believe it it very recently went through audits or it's going through audits right now um

and that's going to improve you know Russ client over go client is going to be uh way better in performance and and and lowering the cost so uh what we did was essentially uh modify the stack so that uh move virtual machine or Salon a virtual machine or paraly evm can Target reth specifically we didn't go after gu um just WTH on on optimism um and yeah essentially you'll have full equivalence with the salana VM that you would have on uh salana so you can just easily copy paste your code and deploy it onto uh optimism and then just make modifications to the front end so that people can connect to it okay so as a builder it doesn't require actually

that much like outside like outside of your current domain technical knowledge to to accomplish this that's kind of where where lumio comes in to make it somewhat simple um you know from my understanding but then like I bu like why do I why do I care like about putting my app somewhere else like why is that important to to to any Builder yeah 100% so I would say the most important thing is access to the native assets so we definitely discussed earlier you know some of the benefits of and tradeoffs between a high performance layer one or something like ethereum and you know know as we talked about it most users would care about that in a Black Swan event but why users should care

today is because they have eth or they have soul or they have AP um a lot of them a lot of them have eth a lot of them have Bitcoin um so you could use for example eth on Solana you could use layer zero Wormhole um but then you'd be trusting a bridge a lot of hacks have happening on Bridges um you know generally wrapped assets still have you know still have some trust assumptions whereas a layer two uh over time can be made uh as trustless as possible as trust minimized as possible using fraud proofs or validity proofs um so then the eth that you're getting you know is quote unquote native eth from ethereum uh so imagine an application on Solana per trading Decks that currently uses

soul for collateral when deployed on ethereum you can now use eth as collateral so I can now go uh and using my native eth uh you know use that as collateral to trade per um on an application that I was normally using previously on Solana where I could only use soul for example so I would say that's the that's the biggest benefit for end users you know users have a lot of different bags and you know they can be uh loyal to individual applications you know maybe they really like the user experience they have that token um you know they they like the rewards the community around a specific application um but they still want to have you know be able to use for example eth as as collateral for for their applications

and you know as we see the L2 ecosystem on bitcoin developing as well um you know very excited to also start integrating the lumio framework into into some of those so um yeah I think Bitcoin is another one where a lot of users I would say probably most users in crypto have some Bitcoin um and you know they'll be able to use that for more complex applications that are built with the salana BM on salana or uh the move VM on optos um or the ebm on on these Layer Two so yeah say that's the biggest the biggest use case um for an application developers to be able to offer these native assets that only live on their base chains yeah helping applications deploy to bitcoin uh would be really cool um I'm curious if you can

walk us through an example of how this could look to a user let's take Unis swap I think it's just like kind of the you know it's like an application that everyone knows and they also happen to be cross-chain right we've got Unis swap on arbitrum Unis swap on mainnet Unis swap on this this chain that chain so so let's say Unis swap you know was to go and and build once deploy everywhere to all those chains how would that change their existing offering to one that uh uses a single VM that deploys and settles onto all these different chains yeah uniswap is a great example if you were to go on the uniswap app. uniswap uh.org uh you connect your wallet uh there's a drop down where you can

essentially trade on avalanch you can trade on B&B uh these are different l1s you can trade on all the different l2s these are different l1s that are compatible with the evm so Unis swap can already do this uh with our solution with the lumm framework they could do this as well on salana so they could also offer uh salana assets that are bridged up from salana uh that can be traded on Unis swap so yeah Unis swap is a great example um and then another good example would be radium being able to go and compete with Unis swap uh with evm assets so yeah I mean essentially as as as you mentioned uh you know Unis swap is an application that a lot of people know and partly due to the fact that they're able to deploy across all these

different environments because they are evm but um applications that were built on salana are now vendor locked into salana with this solution they'll be able to also Deploy on these other environments and then similarly Unis swap can come and Deploy on Salon as well love it man love it now I guess last thing for our community um where you guys at in development um with the testnet and Dev Nets and what does the next couple months look like on your on your agenda yep so on optimism we're live on testet with the move virtual machine uh there we're going to be merging the salana virtual machine uh and later evm paralyzed uh we're focusing right now on Solana we've seen

a lot of the man from Solana teams wanting to scale their existing applications especially during periods of congestion uh so we're moving very quickly to get onto testnet there we will have both the svm and the movm available uh later on we'll be emerging in the paralyzed zvm um and then hoping to move on to mainnet uh you know a few months after that obviously a lot of testing needs to be done on testnet before we can move on to mainnet um but developers uh very soon are going to be able to deploy salana VM applications move VM applications onto salana itself that settles on Solana using soulle assets um and uh very soon as well on on optimism you'll be able to have svm move VM so you have eth liquidity um you know

on svm and move move VM applications so uh yeah that's that's the two that are live now we'll continue moving those in parallel um from developers uh this is what we've heard ethereum and Solana are the two where most people want to be so we're we're tackling these first um but we're also thinking about others like as I mentioned Bitcoin uh ton I think is another really interesting one um and yeah essentially we'll we'll continue talking to developers and seeing where they want to deploy and uh helping support there ton is a very interesting one that has absolutely gone under the rate out for so many people and it's just caught a lot of people off guard so um anyway thank you for the conversation today it's been an absolute pleasure talking about some of the composability

conversation that's in the Z guys today some of the core ethos uh situations and even just like the current state of of um of the apps in crypto kind of where we're headed now um kind of where lumio is going to be in this kind of maer expansion all these different chains apps and as this application space grows how you guys can be positioned to take advantage so again thank you it was our pleasure and um looking forward to seeing the developments from your end awesome thank you for having me it's always a pleasure talking to youall and looking forward to the next one thanks Leo