What’s Actually Working Onchain? | Ali & Cedo

Transcript

I mean, first of all, I just want to say that like the revenue meta is not a meta. Like, building profitable companies is not a meta. Like, it's just kind of a meme to call it that. What's up, guys? Just wanted to give a quick shout out to today's sponsor, Apptos. We'll hear more about how Bitcoin, DeFi, and Apptos is heating up later today. But for now, let's get into the episode. What's up, guys? This is Bukacio, the bad host, and the better host, Danny. Uh, today we have a very, very important announcement for you. We are hosting permissionless in Brooklyn. Um what dates? It's going to be in June. June 24th through the 26th. Very good. Um you can use code 0x10 to buy your tickets. Uh we're going to do lots and lots of stuff. Um

dinners, games, you'll get to meet the whole crew, the Ox Research crew. Hopefully a bunch of the Block Works Research and other Block Works crew. And uh maybe a dunk tank. We're gonna have fun. Uh, whatever we can smooch off of Yano and Meo, we're going to do it. So, if you are a Zerx Research listener, make sure to use code 0x10 to buy your tickets. Danny, any parting words and we'll see you there. Nothing said on Xerox Research is a recommendation to buy or sell securities or tokens. This podcast is forformational purposes only and any views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our opinions, not financial advice. Pocachio, Ryan, and our guests

may hold positions in the company's funds or projects discussed. What's up, guys? Welcome back to another episode of Xerox Research. Today, my guests are woefully unprepared. Aceto asks, "What are we talking about again today?" Um, but it's an exciting one. I uh you know what? Do you guys want to do an introduction and then I'll tell a funny little story about us. Um, Cedo, we can start with you since you're on my camera first. Yep. I'm Cedo. Um, I do motion at Initia. Hard to describe what that is. I just mainly handle the app ecosystem, trying to help apps grow and kind of develop their different things around their marketing and uh overall growth. Um, yeah, I've been

there for like two months now. Pretty hectic, but it's fun. It's a good time. Uh, essentially we're just trying to make a bunch of different hyperlids, I guess. Um, but very like app chain thesis centered. Hopefully it actually works this time. Um, but yeah, that's mainly what I've been up to as of recent. And I also do Exit Liquidity, a podcast that will remain alive by the next episode we decide to do. We'll probably do some stuff now that we're based in the area we're based in. And uh, yeah, that'll be fun.

Very good. Um, Ali, before we get to you, do you I I I didn't know if I should introduce exit liquidity or not because I didn't know if you guys were still doing it. So, you are still doing it. I mean, like, if there's a good if there's a good thing and there's like a good founder, we'll do an interview. Then, if we find like a good video that we want to make or like we go somewhere, we want to make a video, we'll we'll post it for like liquidity. It's It's tough to find. It's It's just for fun. It's like a It's like you tweet when you feel like tweeting. Like we live stream when we feel like live stream. Like no, like we don't get paid for this [ __ ] So like we we actually actively like burn money for it. So like you know it's it's

got to be it's got to be like it's got to be fun for us. That makes sense. Um for what it's worth, Exit Liquidity has my favorite animations for introductions. um like whoever your intro guy is, you should pay him more money and burn more money on that. Um I also really enjoyed you guys' format because it seemed like you two were genuinely just doing it because you were like, "We have the time. Let's chat to this guy." Um, which I think is a better approach than a lot of other crypto podcasts, except for Blockworks crypto podcasts, which are great, but I feel like a lot of other teams are like, how can we do as many podcasts as we can to get into as many seed rounds as possible versus that didn't really seem like the

like the aim with you guys? Um, Ollie, please introduce yourself. Yeah, so uh I'm I'm Ali. Uh, I do Exo Liquidity obviously like once or twice a year maybe if we're lucky. Um I am my primary focus right now is I'm head of growth at Volantis which is a DeFi protocol. We build uh custom DeFi infrastructure, custom dex pools, stuff like that. So my job is basically to to try and get people to care about DeFi again amidst the you know everything that's going on which like apparently we're in like a revenue meta now which is a thing somehow. So, I guess it's

like going, you know, swinging back in my favor a little bit. Um, but yeah, we're live on on the HyperBM. Pretty fun being on there. Uh, yeah. Yeah. Imagine you're busy, right? Surely you're busy. Yeah. Yeah. It's uh I mean, yes, for sure. There's also like a lot of people I don't think Hyperlid does a great job communicating this, but like it is like a phase rollout. So like the chain is not anywhere near yet complete and it's like it was way shittier like even just like two three months ago. Uh whereas like a lot of people are expecting it to be like fully ready out of the gate. Um so like it makes for

it definitely makes like the communication side of things a little bit more nuanced. Uh, it also like ties our hands with some stuff like I mean you guys have probably all heard like people refer to like we're waiting to pre waiting for pre-ompiles to launch to go live on this or that. Um, so like there there is a good bit of just like waiting for updates involved but uh I mean beyond that like you know the chain is is complete enough to have like a lot of basic DeFi pieces there. So there is like it's it's busy for sure. There's a lot to get done in that regard. Just like building up those those first uh those first pieces that like any chain needs.

Yeah, this is a conversation I've had to have pe with people on the block work side because I think a lot of people assume that the like hypervm is now what it will be in the next year but like they cut block times in half maybe three weeks ago. Like you said they just launched read pre-ompiles. I think right are on testn net or they changed some docs around right I can't remember what the update was the latest update but um see do you guys also have this thing where people assume that you're fully live and done the moment that you launched or are you guys also doing a phase launch yeah I mean the thing is um we launched with like eight app chains live at the same

time alongside the L1 one. So that I think that in itself was a little bit weird. So in the first couple weeks, people were learning a lot about bridging infrastructure and how that could be improved a lot. So that's kind of like the biggest focus. Um just making sure that the actual interwovenness between all the roll-ups is a lot lot stronger. Um, and then it's also around specifically around like the applications, first cohort of applications. There's definitely some gems in there. Like people really love Kamagotchi. Um, and what including my brother, I I think I

showed this to you already. He's built like free [ __ ] websites on it now. He loves that like anything else in crypto. He just loves Camagotchi for some reason. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's super interesting. There's like a lot of instances of that. Um, and then there's also just like the regular D5 primitives that I think what they need is some iteration, some like uniqueness that drives people there. Um, but the normal D5 people that understand how to kind of engage with the new ecosystem and earn properly with within D5 primitives, that that's definitely happening. Um, but I think I'm excited about like this next cohort where that uniqueness is going to be like a focus kind of think about why

you jump to any other chain um or why you jump to any other ecosystem. There has to be a unique value prop. So I think that's kind of be that's that's going to be like the main focus as we change things within the infrastructure stack that these app chains are able to use to make that easier. Um, so that's been the main focus for us. Is there anything that I should specifically be looking forward to? Like do you have like a gem that you're like keep an eye on this or do you have to be very diplomatic because of your power and your position? Um there's one that's already been talked about a lot that I had a really good conversation with recently. Um you probably heard of Contro and their like

Glob. They they took a while to to create what they have now, but um they they have this alpha out. It's like a private alpha. You're able to get in via this Telegram. Um they just launched it a few days ago and I was super impressed by the the application UX. It's definitely weird to have this like streaming of liquidity. It's still on test net. Um, but I'm pretty excited for for them because they have like a very interesting northstar where like the founder Andreas thinks that opinions that happen online basically should be backed up by money. Um, and and the way that we're fed opinions on social media

should be a lot more unique. And so it's that with an alternative liquidity mechanism for uh like binary prediction markets. Um, and I think it could be a solution um that that is like super unique. Um, and the UX now is like pretty clean and they're going to they're going to upgrade over the next few weeks and then get the thing live on mainet. I think that'll be that'll be a pretty solid gem. That makes sense. I'll um I'll put them in the show notes. I have heard of them and seen them. I feel like these prediction markets are doing um or prediction market related platforms are more and more popular.

People love gambling. Um, the revenue meta is actually just companies making money on gambling. So, we'll see how it That's a good point. Bitcoin defi is heating up on ApdOS with nearly 400 million BTC assets on chain. Apptos users can now earn yield on their Bitcoin via EcoABTC and OKXXBTC without the typical bridge risks and high fees. To explore BTC yield opportunities on APOS, follow the link in today's show notes. As always, investments in blockchain technology involve risk. terms and conditions apply. Do your own research. Ali, you mentioned and Cedo, I also want your opinion on this. Um, like you guys said, the revenue meta. I mean, from what I remember, so Ali, I know you

wrote a pretty big report back in the day on options, per etc. Um, see though, I don't write or read. Okay. Um, no, but when I came on and when I've seen your exit liquidity pod, this is typically around DeFi. Um, and I feel like the past year and a half hasn't Well, now it's getting a bit more and more, but um, past year and a half hasn't been much about DeFi. How do you, um, like on our side sometimes we get bored. We're like, I can't [ __ ] write about Telegram bots again. Um, because that's the only thing like you can't write about meme coins. Maybe you can write one, but you can't write multiple times.

How have you guys been spending your time? What have you been focused on apart from your jobs? Um, I think uh I mean first of all I just want to say that like the revenue meta is not a meta. Like building profitable companies is not a meta. Like it's just kind of a meme to call it that. It's pretty it's pretty dumb that people are uh are like calling it this new thing as if like I don't know. It's ridiculous. like you guys know already. Um, in ter like outside of outside of I guess just like working on Volantis, uh, I find it helps to either like zoom in a lot or like zoom out a lot. uh like the middle

ground which is kind of where like CT keeps you of like you have these like attention cycles where like we'll rotate from being excited about one thing to the next week to week like it just burns you out and like makes you kind of lose the plot, you know. Um, there are like there are always like cool teams doing stuff and it's like I find that either following a handful of those who I really like a lot more closely and like seeing them develop like week over week, month over month is a good way to kind of like get away from that. zooming out is a little bit harder for me because like you can

only be like big picture for so long before things start to like before you have to like be practical about stuff. Um, and it like it is a little bit harder with like all the CT noise if you spend a good bit of time on there. Um, but also like you know kind of I mean me and Cedto at least got into crypto like because of DeFi. like that's why it's most of what we talk about and like most of what we what we like most of what we work on even. Um so it's like having that reset every now and then getting off of CT. Um like understanding that like there is like progress being made in a lot of key areas and like you know just like getting back to like why why

we're here in the first place is a a more challenging way to do it I think. But uh it like does help to kind of reset back to that every now and then amidst the fifth trading bot this year that's printing in revenue or whatever it is. Yeah, that's a good part. What is are you kind of sick and tired of the what are you what have you been doing over the past year since DeFi has kind of taken a back um back seat apart from your job?

Like what have you been trading? What have you been looking at? I'd say like I go like last year, like this time last year, I was I was doing what everyone was doing. I was I was trading meme coins in like on Salana, I was getting wrecked, but I also, you know, caught a few things. Um, and yeah, that like it's the it's the normal thing. Just go where like the flows are. But I think for me specifically to DeFi, the thing that keeps me interested is like, you know, I had like a finance degree um out of college and I learned more about finance through like DeFi than I ever did throughout college. And it's this

super fun element of crypto in general where you can look at in like a pessimistic view where like people are scamming, but it's also like people are trying things and then maybe those things blow up and then if a few things blow up, you'll get something that works at the end of it. Um and like like I remember when like we were doing like a a derivative season on exit liquidity. we were doing options and uh per protocols and and people were running like virtual AMMs and those all blew up and then throughout those learnings you get like a hyperlquid on the other side um or like even um Bagel Bagel pointed this out. I don't

know if people know Bing Bagel um on Twitter but um Morpho's recent announcement around their like fixed rate lending uh thing. I think that's pretty cool. And it looks like it took a lot of inspiration from like NFTtifi lending where it was like peer-to-peer um fixed rate lending um on these JPEGs and and now it looks like they're going to be able to have something that's actually, you know, more robust for like a a lot of real money and not JPEGs and and things like that. So that's what always keeps me interested. I think like the unique way to kind of like create these DeFi primitives is always

interesting. And then you have things like the holy grail of like under collateralized lending, right? Where like you see like Wildcat and uh three chain trying stuff like I'm excited for those to maybe blow up and then maybe we'll have something that's like tried and tested and yeah, you know, it'll be cool. No, that makes sense. Um, the reason that that is the holy grail is because we need as much credit in crypto as possible, right? I'm not misunderstanding it. Who attempted this?

Last time we did this, it was centralized. I guess CI and then those blow up. Did we do under collateralized last time? Goldfinch did it. Do you guys remember that? I think Maple also tried some stuff with like businesses. Yeah. And that blew up. Yeah. It was a It was more I guess it was more similar to like 3J and I don't think anyone has tried what they're doing right now. Um but like Wildcats model of like lending to businesses. I think uh Goldfinch and Maple Maple had that whole thing where there was like there was like people who like took out loans for their small businesses to buy like motorcycles or something for like food delivery or

whatever and they defaulted. And it's like what what do we do now? Like we have to go to like Argentina or wherever to go and and like liquidate these bikes. It was Goldfinch, but it was literally that they took out for motorbikes in Kenya, I think, or maybe Argentina, and then they didn't pay it back. That's the thing. I'm not a lawyer. I don't know if either of you guys are, but I think Wildcat probably makes sense. Um because you're dealing with institution like they're lending out the split capital, not to some guy in Argentina.

Um do either of you know how the free gain credit system works? Is it just ported from real life? They use a lot of stuff in the back end. We we did a the last was it the last pod we did was with them. Yeah, it was with Wildcat and 3J and um 3J guy, he actually ran the um lending desk at Ribbon, I think. It's cool. Yeah, I don't think they were I mean I don't think they were lending. It was mainly just uh I don't know what he did there, but I think it was mostly just like options strategies. I don't know if there was any like uh yeah, I don't know to be honest. But um yeah, they're basically they have

like Stripe integrations, they have some like ZK proof integration um that basically allows you to utilize like a Coinbase balance um your credit score um that lives offchain and then they do like some type of AI analysis on your wallet, your DeFi wallet. So they're they're optimizing for people that are DeFi farmers that have these wallets with that kind of like reputation built in and they calculate like some type of score for for for them. Um and and determine how much they can borrow and at what rate. From what I've seen that like the first few people have gotten they're paying like around

like 11%. Um to to borrow which isn't great but they're definitely getting like a lot more and it's obviously under collateralized. Um but yeah I think the wildat thing is like super cool. Um I'm just curious how like something like that scales out. Um, right. Because you can only like approve and onboard so many um, split capitals, right? Yeah. Um, I think they have plans. I'm pretty sure you can like pull your I'm actually trying it right now because I remember they announced this, but I never got to try it. You can like pull your credit on

3J and like see how much you would be eligible for. I just They gave me zero USDC. What the [ __ ] dude? Dude, it doesn't really It doesn't really matter. I think that part doesn't work. Oh, it doesn't? Well, like from what I've seen on Twitter, like people are are saying that most of the time they're not getting nothing unless they do like the full stack of Oh, I don't want to I don't want to do You can connect like your Credit Karma and like your banks and stuff like that. I remember that like when when they were talking about on on the podcast like ZKTLS was the big unlock there. Like being able to access that information from uh from like off-chain sources without like being able to prove it without needing to like access it necessarily or something like

that. Apparently that is like the reason why this is possible. Yeah. I also saw someone say uh on on Twitter there's a so apparently each Stripe call cost the platform like around like two bucks for Stripe to do their kind of thing. So, someone was saying they could theor I'm I'm believing whatever this person is saying, but they're saying that you kind of just bankrupt three by just spam calling the the stripe in. No, they have they have limited the spots are limited. Yeah. Um, so those things are definitely still early and I hope they don't blow up, but I think we'll see a lot of iteration

on this kind of like under collateralized lending. And actually, have you guys not done a You guys should do a pod with uh those guys. I will. I just remembered and I put it in my notes to be honest with you. I uh I'm gonna try and have Lawrence on as well from Wildcat. Lawrence is hilarious. Dude, Lawrence is so funny. He's He's a great podcast guest. Yeah. I don't know how happy he'll be that CO said hopefully they blow up and it gets better. I didn't say hopefully they blow up. I'll totally said that. The thing is he's very honest with the platform. He's like, you know, this is a riskier thing.

That's why the rates are higher for lending. Like this has the potential to to to blow up. You have the potential to not get your money back. He did say like I don't I don't think he I don't remember him ever using the words blow up, but he did say like there will come a time there will come a time when like someone defaults and like everybody comes to Lawrence's like dude like what do I do now? And like it's just going to be a night like a comm's nightmare. Um, but like I mean I don't know the platform is designed to like handle cases like that even if like when it happens like users are definitely going to be upset initially but over time it's supposed to they're supposed to be able to like to acquire that debt and like

clear it off the books or something like that. I mean, people are upset if there's a default in real life as well. Like, it ruins people. So, like there's not there's not much that Lawrence can do on that end. With nearly 400 million BTC on chain, supported by a secure, fast, and affordable move VM environment, APAs has become the BTC growth chain. Apttos users can now earn yield on their Bitcoin via Eco's ABTC and OKX's XBTC without the typical bridge risks and high fees. With support from Echo, OKX, and STAX SBTC, Apptos is the place to go for best-in-class yield on Bitcoin. To explore BTC yield opportunities on Apptos, follow the link in today's show notes. As always, investments in

blockchain technology involve risk. Terms and conditions apply. Do your own research. In terms of per, have you guys tried any Ali, this might be a little uh scary of a question for you, but have you guys tried out anything but Hyperlid these days? Have you used anything but Hyperlid these days? I've I've tried them all, dude. Uh well, I don't know about all of them, but like all there, you know, there's like this new wave of per deckes who are all kind of just like trying to like tail this hyperlid like hype. It's like uh extended variational lighter Pacifica.

Uh there's like a couple others that I haven't tried. I think like Avantis and some other one. Aster a do you know that one? the ones CZbacked or Binance. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I don't know. That's what it was called. Yeah. Yeah. I've tried. I mean, I've tried a lot of them, but like I don't know. I'm not a very sophisticated trader, so I like I mean, I can tell that the liquidity is terrible on a lot of them. And some of them like I can't even really trade on or at least like trade on without just getting ruined by slippage. Um, but like I don't know.

They're all just like per deck's with points programs. Like it is what it is. What do you um we talked about vms vms a bit? Um obviously blew up. Um did you guys always like in your mind did it always make sense that a club would win out or were you ever like you know what there's some like AMM hybrid models that might work out? The the better question is like last when GMX was out, were you like, you know what, this model probably wins eventually or were you always caught thinking it's stupid?

I never really I never really thought about the models to determine a winner. I remember we had a guest who was like very against AMMs and that's one one of the first times that I was thinking about like this is an AMM, this is like a order book. like what? That was like kind of the first instance where I was debating that within my head. Um I don't know. I was never really like a big GMX trader. I think most people were just using or just interacting with the platform via like GLP or at least the ones that I knew. Um yeah, I never really like debated that within my head. Um honestly, yeah, I don't know. It's It took time

for me to like develop those opinions, I think. And I ch I flipped back and forth pretty often. Like the first time I heard the first time I heard of like a VMM, I didn't really understand what was wrong with it. And like I don't think any of them had really blown up at that point. Um or like when GMX was hot, like I didn't really understand what their model was. Um I feel like I have a more nuanced opinion now. Uh, I mean, for for purpob, right? Like you can't I don't think there's any way you can scale like AMMs as we understand them today to like do what Hyperlid or like a sex could do.

Like you you just can't straight up. Uh, I have always been interested in hybrid models though. Like I I always liked Vertex. I always liked Drift. Um, like intuitively it makes a lot of sense to me because you're able to like deepen the liquidity on your books a little bit while also giving users a way to like passively provide liquidity. Uh, they usually still get burned providing that liquidity. But like I don't know, people tend to oversimplify AMMs. think there's a lot of different ways they could look that is not just like simple like XY equals K bonding curves or like concentrated liquidity or whatever that is able to do

more uh and people are just too quick to write them off like like people have had a centralized like source of bids and asks on some asset for like as long as we've traded things pretty much like longer than we have had computers probably. But like AMMs we've had for what, like 10 years? Yeah. Yeah. And like they have been like they have been improving and changing in a lot of different ways like and they all still suck in a lot of different ways too, but like just writing them off so quickly for SP this is like more for spot assets. writing them off so quickly is just like it just seems super

shortsighted in my opinion and it's like not I think if you hold that opinion then that is like an anti-defy opinion like you like you're kind of missing the forest for the trees with that I think that makes sense. I feel like the general take now is for super longtail dog [ __ ] assets, you want to use AMMs to swap um or for like one to one well things that should be one to one um LSTs, I guess USDC, USDT, etc.

Yeah. Yeah, that's that's pretty uh it's a pretty common take. I think it definitely makes sense. Um, yeah. I mean, we still haven't really seen any spot order books on chain that like can provide good liquidity for anything under like it's not even just like [ __ ] assets. It's like under like 200 mil market cap stuff. Like people like vastly overestimate hyperlquid spot for everything outside of like hype, Bitcoin, and like ETH and Soul maybe. Like outside of that, like you're going to want to use an AMM pretty much.

Yeah, I think this is I'm going to tie this into the hyperlquid ecosystem thing I want to chat about, but um I think the go the jerk reaction to people building AMMs on Hyper EVM is saying but there's an order book. Why the [ __ ] would you do that? But clearly that's not true because like you said like fartcoin soul BTC E that's the unit assets there's hype but everything apart from that I mean you need to have somebody to make that market and I don't know if everybody wants to do that I don't know if anybody wants to do that and spot bombs are actually still quite low on hyperlquid that's like supposed to be the next um I

don't know how although you're probably familiar with him but Max was talking about this fi fi I don't know how you say his last name that um like I thought that HIPP3 would be the next big thing. He agreed, but he also said that like the spa ecosystem needs to grow quite heavily. Um I think that makes a lot of sense. You guys are doing an AMM, right? Do you have an AM? Yeah. Yeah. Um we So we have like one main design that we're working with right now for LSTs specifically. So, like you said, it's like kind of like both extremes like either super volatile small assets or like very stable like onetoone stuff is where AMMs can really shine. So, we're

kind of on the ladder there. Uh the design we have right now is like a pool that is generally like for any for any liquid derivative. So, any asset that is staked and then can be redeemed for its base asset. Um, so that's like LSTs, like SUSD and USDE. Um, other types of stable coins that follow that model, LRTs. Um, and it's like I mean it's an AMM. I'm like intuitively I feel like we're going to have to move away from that language in the long run because there's a lot of like connotations

around an AMM and like what we do now is like that's the closest thing to it but like it really doesn't it really does a lot more than that like it's much more like an extension of the LST itself like it interacts directly with the staking contracts it prices based on the stake there's no bonding curve it prices based on the staking contracts themselves and it can like issue new stake and unstake to rebalance the pool. Um, so like AMM is like the easiest way to put it and like that is what it is. Like it is an automated marketmaking strategy, but um like you know we get people asking about stuff like pricing and like slippage and like what happens when the pool gets

imbalanced and stuff like that, but like it's it's a much more like involved market making strategy than just like mathematically following a curve. That makes sense. And you guys do your own frontends or do you also work with I know I think you work with stake type right like is it only their front end or do you have your own front end? We we have our own front end. We have app.valantis.xyz. That's where all that's where the only place where our current pool lives and like it will be where all of our pools are for like in the future. Um I mean would definitely like I'm sure see other people hosting them as well but yeah we we have our own front end. uh stake type

is like they're just the asset that we built around for the first like iteration of this pool. Uh we'll like do the same for other assets in the future. That makes I assume Kinetic is probably a big contender, right? Kinetic is is a big contender. Yeah. Um Kinetic, there's other stable coins. Uh there's other LSTs that plan to go live soon, too. Kinetic's the main LST that people are looking forward to, though, it seems. Yeah. I um every time I have Omni on the Pot, I ask him when he's going to go live and it's been like six months in between and feel bad for him because he's waiting for pre-ompiles, but like I have to ask

him every time and then like we're waiting. Yeah, it's uh Yeah, it's it's kind of it's a waiting game. Everybody's just in the pre-ompiles wait room because they can't I mean they can't go live. they have like a stake type doesn't have like a fully like trustless staking model whereas like Khype will um and they can't do that without being able to to send and redeem assets directly from hyper core so they need pre-ompiles for that do you think the spot do you think the spot uh ecosystem on hyperlid progresses more by them adding more of the like farcoin stuff at higher value market caps. Do you think they

make changes to the order to they make changes to the spot ecosystem that that make it better to support things on the uh longer tail? I can give a very basic thought and then Ali, I'm sure you know more about this, but I don't think that uh HLP does spot trading as far as I understand. Does it? No. Yeah. So, I feel like that would be now I'm sure there's different risks to that because you actually have to hold the asset. I don't know how it works on the back end. They would know a lot better than me, but feel like that's one thing just to boost up liquidity um on those assets. I think the unlock probably comes with like them bridging

over more assets. But, um as like if Valantis launches a token, that's a lot better. Um because you want the hyper EVM to develop and have its own tokens and then people are going to come in and want to trade on the spot books like right now. Okay, FAR, Soul, Eve, BTC, great. Maybe you can put like a ENA whatever on there as well, but I think more people want to just buy Hyper EVM tokens and as those come up. Um well the connection between like the AMM and the spot like the AMMs that exist on Hyper EVM and uh the the associated asset on the spot order book. So that's supposed

to connect with the right compiles in a way where it's kind of like shared liquidity or no I think it's already connected. I I mean you it's not connected but you can I mean all you can do right now is like send send assets send spot assets to and from Hyper EVM. Um the connection would be like when write pre-ompiles go live you can imagine a dex or an aggregator where you go there with hype uh you let's say you want to buy fed and fe is priced at $1 on an amm on hypervm but it's priced at like 98 cents on

hyper core. um the DEX would instead route that trade to Hyper Core and then send it back to you on send your balance back to you on the HyperVM. So you get better price execution there than you would if you were just swapping on some decks on on Hyperlid. Um that I find that to be like the most basic like straightforward example of fre what could do. There's there's a lot more you can do. The best the best like ex the best heruristic I've heard for like what write pre-ompiles are is like you are just wrapping an exchange API directly within a smart contract and you can do anything not anything but like there's a a set number of actions which pretty

much cover everything without breaking composability that you can do like within a smart contract and that's like not ever been possible before obviously like centralized. So there's going to be like a a really killer aggregator that's early enough and smart enough to write the best version of compiles. Yeah. Yeah. There's a I know there's a team that's working on this right now. I mean they were planning they were initially planning to launch like just with hyperbubm functionality but now they're they're waiting for write pre-ompiles. So they like they will be the first and like probably the only aggregator for a while that is hyperbm

and hyper core. Who is it? Are they public? Uh no they're not. I've I can Is it you guys? No, it's not us. But I mean we'd like we'd like to build that for sure. Like we just wouldn't be the first ones to do it. That makes sense. I um see though, are you on Hyper Liquid a lot or did ZH ban you from other things? I'm on Hyperlid a lot. I probably post about Hyperlid more than I should.

That's probably a thing. Um but I'm on Hyperlid a lot. I'd say like um and I do want Ali to uh to flesh out this idea, but there are other ecosystems that um like I interact with as well. I think like there's actually I I won't I won't touch on that now because it's it's uh I feel like we need to wrap up this Hyperlid uh conversation.

But um well just wrap it up. You can wrap it up. I thought there was another question you wanted to ask. No, I was going to ask about ecosystem apps, but it's fine. Let's let's let's do your thing. It sounds more interesting. No, no. I I want to see Ali uh rank all of the ecosystem apps within Hyper EVM as a participant. I don't know if I'm allowed to do that. Am I allowed to do that? I think so. I guess. Dude, it's funny because like people come to people on the team come to me sometimes and they're like, "Yo, can I tweet this or like can I say this?" And I'm like, I I don't know, dude. Like I'm not your PR guy. I I mean I there's I'm not going to rank them, but like I defin there definitely are

ones that I like am quite bullish on. Um Felix is the easy answer. Like everybody loves Felix and for good reason. Yeah, they're a liquidity v1 fork. Okay, but that's not why I'm like excited about them necessarily. Like like I like liquidity. It's cool for sure, but I think in terms of all the teams on the hypervm, they're the ones that are most like forward thinking about leveraging hyper core. Um, and I think that that I think like that's the reason to be on the hyperVM. Like if you don't plan to do that as like part of your long-term road map, then like just like go to base or something. Like what's the point, you

know? It's it's you're really just there for the hype. No other reason. Um no pun intended. Yeah. Uh yeah, I like Felix. Uh I Hyperland I think is also is also heading in the right direction for that stuff. Um Hyperbeat is a good team as well. Last one I think is like I think probably like if you spend some time in the hyperVM you get a sense for this but most people don't know. Um Laminar I think is like probably the most the most I think that they will like edge out Hypers Swap and Kitten Swap on a long enough time frame as like HyperVM's like general decks. uh they're just a lot

quieter right now and like they they have a longer term plan than just like you know launch a Uni V3 fork or an air drum fork and run points very diplomatic anything you like um I like Felix because very early on they uh the well Ollie mentioned he just liked the team and then they also like reached out to me and like I just think people with that initiative are are super uh cool. Um outside of the ones he mentioned there's another one that I'm farming.

Charlie messages my main and my alt once a week. So Charlie's great Charlie Charlie and I worked at Panoptic. Uh, I think that was like his first Yeah. I mean, he was still like working on Anthy back then, but I think that was his first like role at Defi Protocol and we were both like writers there for uh that long, like six months maybe. Yeah, I I respect the hell out of him. I agree with you, C. Anytime somebody's messaging you trying to like get you to use the product, I think that's like it's just grit. I think it's good. Yeah.

I don't have any other. Those are the only ones I'm really engaging with. I was also going to ask about like the ICM meta and all of these new uh ways to launch a token. I was curious what Picashio thinks about those. Oh yeah. Yeah. Should I go first or do you want to go first though? Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. Like launchcoin and stuff is fine, but I feel like we always get everything in waves. You mentioned it's like that mid uh medium-term frequency like the narrative. What the hell?

medium-term frequency thing. Um, I don't know if like the current ICM meta is going to the current way of ICM makes a lot of sense. Um, I do think that like logically it does make sense because we're moving settlement, we're trying to move settlement to crypto rails because it's better. Um, and if more and more liquidity goes on the blockchain, um, why shouldn't, like there's so much money in crypto, there's so much dumb money in crypto. If I'm a founder and I can get a quicker exit um, and get more money to my product, why wouldn't I launch the equity as a token on maybe not like using

Launchcoin, but I'm sure it's something that could eventually work out. I just feel like it's a two three year thing and not something that is immediate. I didn't like the ICM meta for what it's worth. I didn't like the original one where it was like the Vine founder was like jelly jelly. Um I didn't like this last one where Pastor Knack just did he like the entire thing was just him tweeting out. I know that it's probably still going up. Um, but I do think that there's probably something there in that the way that we issue assets and the way that capital forms, it might start moving more and more towards crypto. And then I think um, you probably shouldn't ignore that cuz eventually like nobody thought that

stable coins would completely be on chain and nobody still thinks that, but eventually it might be because it would make sense. That's my very diplomatic take if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. I I think that's fair. The way the way that I kind of think about it, I don't really like the the term like ICM just because I think that's like I think that comes with like very web 2 like SF Cabal type connotations. Um I more so think that like I think the whole meta like is and always has been just like permissionless bootstrapping. Like I don't I don't think that like Jelly Jelly or like Cled or who like

Dupe or whoever like is necessarily like a new part of this. Like I think it always has been with like Pump Fun Virtuals. Like I mean AI6Z was late with their launchpad but like that was part of it too. Like it's always just been like how can we form capital on chain uh in like the most efficient way possible so that it like runs the hardest, gets the most attention and like continues to be a valuable vehicle for like retail to participate in. Um, and like I think that there's basically two things that matter there. And one of them is distribution. And that's why like

Launchcoin was so exciting because we didn't really have a launchpad that had like unique and interesting distribution before that. Like Pump Fund's distribution is that people come there to extract. like there is there is an like a quote unquote underground network of people who launch tokens and corner the supply or whatever and pump stuff, you know, sometimes it's like actual like exchanges who like send stuff just to infinity. Sometimes it's people who just pump stuff to 500k and dump it. Whatever it is, it like creates volume, it creates attention and it like makes some people money, burns most people.

Um, that is like solved distribution over there. And then like ICM comes in or Launchcoin comes in and they're like, "Oh, like we have people building like actual apps now, like people who have backgrounds who have done other things in the startup world and are now working on something new or taking whatever they're working on before and attaching a token to it. Um, but it's not it's just a different like just a different reason to get people excited. The core thing of what's going on is the same. Um, and the second thing that matters is like mechanics. So like this is where like anti- snipe stuff like different bonding curves, different like launch pads and buyback mechanisms, whatever

that like this is where that starts to come into play. Um and that's like much more interesting and digestible to me. So like stuff like Doppler is really cool. I think stuff like Flaunch, uh Dizzy is like in that group too. I'm still a little bit skeptical of them. Or like Vertigo. Um, I know like the Phoenix guys did something with like Gavl or like IBRL, whatever it was. Believe is having like they're launching their own anti- snipe fees, whatever it is. Um, but yeah, that's like the other side of the coin is like how can we structure this? How can we structure this bootstrapping process so that it like gets the hand gets the token into

the hands of the people who want it the most at the best price like over the longest period of time. I thought they were Yeah, I um I don't want to be a dick to Ethereum, but I thought the whole reason that Doppler and Flanch managed to work that out is because they just like on Salana, they also used to have anti- sniping thing and then they eventually figured out how to bypass it because there was a lot of money to be made. And I'm curious if like Flaunch, Doppler, etc.

if there was enough money to be made or more and more money to be made, um they could just bypass it by figuring out another system as opposed to what it is now. It's kind of might be a bit of an in um ignorant take though because I'm not as familiar with flaunch and Doppler as I understand um the Solana side of the auction and the snip and the sniping stuff. Do you think that these things just have to represent equity for any of it to actually work? Yes. That's kind of where I sit and I feel like I should like everything else should be But can we do that? Like is that legal? Yeah, it is. I always thought that that was like the biggest no no. Like tokens can't be equity.

Well, I think they couldn't be equity. I think they can be now or like because you can get you can get away with like maybe it's not the legal definition of equity but if Volantis launches a token and it's making a lot of money on these swaps. Why do we why do we keep using this as an example? Whatever because initially already has a token. Okay, let's do initial. If if initial launches initial protocol X has a token and it makes a lot of money and all of that money goes to the token as like it's the case of Hyperl, right?

Like I'm sure there's hyperlquid equity as well maybe. I don't know. I don't want to get shot by Jeff and Zulian, but um I don't think so. Okay. Hyperlink was a bad whatever I like Morpho did something like this where like now it's all under one token. There is no equity. Yeah. And if de facto all protocol revenue is going to the token and not the equity then the token is the equity because the token just needs to represent the cash flows of the product. Like that's what equity is. Um, even if you can't legally call it equity, but it gets all the cash flows, then it just acts as equity now. And you can do that now. You like you can do buybacks, which

aren't great, but you can do just um fee sharing whatever. Then your thing becomes equity. Bosch. No. Yeah. But it has to be like there are some pretty not high value market cap, but some pretty up there market cap coins right now that have teams that raise equity and then have uh have a token through this like ICM beta and they're trying to navigate like what the balance is between the two. And my base case is that it's not going to work. Um, and that there's going to have to be a framework for launching these. And there's like a few people like I don't

know if you saw these guys. I think it's called Metapplex or Meta. Yeah, they're trying to do like SAFS onchain somehow. Um, that could be cool. Uh, Salutary is trying to do some like merger M&A stuff that I think could be cool as well. um just creating some like legal framework um that that actually works I think will be exciting but there needs to be a few scams people need to lose bunch of money within ICM for for something nice to come out the other side. Yeah, I um I agree with that. I also agree with your take that something needs to blow up for it to get fixed. like 100% I think every year a

lot of things blow up and then we realize hey guys that was not it we should we should do it hyperunit is going to have like stocks and stuff I think most people remember like doing stuff on mirror and how that blew up like that was pretty fun aside from the blowing up part what ecosystems are you messing around with as we close off other than hyperlquid. Um, this was actually this is actually why I have people on and ask them what the [ __ ] are you doing on chain because I am not doing anything on chain these days. Um, I talked about this last pod which shows that Cedo doesn't listen to the pod which is fine. Um, I listened to

the one with Omni and and Max and uh Monk I think it was. Yeah. Can you give me your feedback on that right now? Right now. in my head. Um, I think you should just lean into more clips. I think you're you're you're funny and I I love the clips that you you post and the memes that people post about you. Um, I think just lean into more clips and don't have people on that are not going to put their face cam or at least put in the effort to uh to uh have like a 3D figure. Yeah. To be fair, I also Yeah. You didn't have face cam on that episode, I don't think.

Yeah, I don't think so. Ollie, did you listen to it? Ollie doesn't listen to any podcast. I can't listen to my brain. Too fried. I listen to zero podcast. It's just it's just not like I couldn't even if I wanted to. Like five minutes in I would be doing something else without realizing and it would just be I would not be processing a single word. Yeah. The the thing I do now is I go on YouTube and I copy the transcript and I just paste it into chat if I really need to listen like listen or learn something but I can't listen to pods. What I'm doing on train hyperunit Felix Hyperland um on Hyper EVM Hyperlid I did play a bit of Kamigoi because my

brother was like this is really cool you should check it out. Um so that's my hedge against initia. Um, apart from that, nothing really to be honest with you. Like I'm kind of bored. I just I hold hyperlquid and BTC and then it's 40 40 and then I have 20% cash. So I don't know. Might be boring, but you probably outperform like almost everyone at least like to date. Yeah, I talk about this quite often in my Slack in my work Slack. I say, "Hey guys, um, on the on the on the topic of other ecosystems, this one is not one that I'm spending time on yet, but I really think

that Inc. could be could be really cool." Um, just imagine Bass, but like without the feds. That's that's my vision for what Inc. is. Um, and I think that's worth a lot. I need a bit more of a pitch for this because this does not make sense to me intuitively for somebody to say, "Hey, Kraken's L2. Yeah, that's the one." I think I I think they it's a team there. Their team is very like their team is much more like CT native and like they understand a lot more about how how like DeFi and crypto ecosystems work I think than Bass does. base is

like it feels like they're constantly trying to put a square peg into a round hole and like sometimes it fits and they get lucky with like uh I don't even know like the last unique thing that they did on base. Like it's just an extension of of Ethereum content. Dude, those were so [ __ ] bad. I can't believe they did that. Like that was that's the worst meta I've ever seen. Yeah, that's that's exactly what I like what I think is a good example of like trying to put a square peg into a round hole. Like I just don't you know they they just don't like have I mean they're trying stuff which is cool but like I don't think it's as like informed by actual like what people actually want as

uh as like ink could be. More and more often I think Jesse is also like not a human. I think like you know how people talk about uh officials as like lizard people. I think Jesse is probably a lizard person. I was I more so think like whenever I think of like you know when you think of a chain and you get like some form of an aesthetic in your head. Yeah. This is the one that I I get when I think of, "Oh my god, it's taking me a [ __ ] hour to do this."

Um, professional podcaster, by the way. This is my day job. I think of this every time I think of bass. Like, it's just like, you know, how do you so Yeah, this is true. I just it's just kind of a shame as well because they have they technically have all of the resources of Coinbase. They have they they also had it like they had attention, they had the lead, they had everybody was like, "Oh, it's you have to launch on Solan or base." Like all of the VCs were even like Alliance was saying you have to launch on Salon or base. Other funds were saying the same thing, I assume. And then they just

they're just kind of irrelevant now. like it's aerodyome and I feel like that's it, right? They had Morpho, but I think that's there's so much liquidity there. Mor Morpho I think yeah there's liquidity. Morpho is cool because they have like Coinbase integrations and like they they will have more in the future probably. I think a big part of the the base thesis was always like the Coinbase smart wallet and being able to use base from Coinbase. Um, which is like Kraken is also doing that. But like I don't know how how uh I mean you can't like really do much on chain from the Coinbase app right now as I understand it, but they're planning

to do more along those lines. So it's like you're unlocking a whole new user group. Um, but I don't know. I don't think that Arjun guy is pretty based. I really I kind of like that guy. He's the new co-founder of or co-CEO of Kraken. I also Kraken doesn't. That's a big part. I'm probably biased like Kraken. I was I've been locked out of Coinbase and never used it again. Yeah, that's what happened. I think a lot of people have for no reason. For no reason. Like I hadn't used it in months. All right. Um guys, before we end it off, do you have where should people where do

you want people to check out? Do you have anything that you want blurred on the screen saying make sure to follow X, make sure to look into Yo, please uh make sure to look into uh Initia, try some of the applications, earn some ES in it. We give away like half a million dollars in ES every two weeks. So, it's uh pretty pretty good ROI if you're in it for the long haul. Um things to check out other than like the initia page.

Honestly, just you probably better off just like following Ali's Twitter. There's probably good good amount of alpha there. That's where I get all my alpha. I feel like I don't tweet that much like alpha anymore. Maybe like every now and then just everyone just reply to all these tweets and just say alpha question mark until he gives you off. I'm going to block you. I will immediately block you. Um yeah, I guess from my end um if you hold hype, you can deposit it on Volantis and earn yield and uh points on it from the lending markets. Uh there's going to be more pools there soon with different rewards on them. Uh it usually

outperforms staking yield. It's not right now just because volume's been low, but um that generally makes it the best place to park your hype if you just want pure yield on it. Um and yeah, follow Atlantis, ask us questions, hang out with us, all that fun stuff. Very good, guys. Thank you for coming on. This was fun. Maybe maybe you can post this on exit liquidity if you want. You don't have to, but since you guys both did it, it might make sense. And we can do this.

Yeah. I mean, there you go. No, you don't have to clip it up. I don't see why not. It's been a while since we posted. We'll probably just be lazy and retweet your post. We're going to be honest. That makes sense. We can quote it. No, but I appreciate you guys coming on. This is fine. Yeah. Yeah, thanks. Thanks, man. Thanks for having us. [Music]