What's the Point? Treasury Management at DAOs

Transcript

[Music] all right hi everyone uh okay so we're gonna be talking about traic management today I'm gonna ask the speakers to introduce themselves uh I'm gonna first introduce myself uh and then we going to get on with the questions H throughout the panel you have any questions feel free to raise your hand at some point we'll get to the questions and if no you can't text me but it's fine uh all right so my name is too I used to be a contributor of make a cre facilitator uh for the data analytics unit and also for spark and in a previous live I was advising 4500 treasuries um with their fxs and other um Financial managerie uh

please oxy doen yeah I guess I'll go next hey everyone I'm oxy I'm the head of governance at par of additionally I'm a delegate at optimism and arbitrum I'm so happy to be here here and we looking forward to dishing out some paneling um any answer that might be controversial I'm going to blame it on my jet lag hi I'm Alice I'm part of the governance team at karpaty um I'm also arbitrum delegate and I am part of the uniswap accountability committee um and I was part of the uniswap treasury working group hey everyone my name is my name is

Juan um I'm clar treasury manager since around three years H and yeah I'm eum researcher and building some stuff in defi so yeah I'm I'm not a governance expert but more in the Treasure management side so yeah that's it uh and to one's Point uh we have a treasure on the side and we have a governance experts for treasuries on this side so I'm going to be splitting the questions uh between those two groups uh so just to start off uh with one if we could just give us a brief overview view of what is treasury management what does it mean yeah so the TDR is uh could be defined as you have a treasury and you want to maximize the capital efficiency of the treasury to preserve the capital

but also make it uh like working capital and how to use that Capital to fulfill like the obligations of your client you could say either it's an internal company or like external Etc sweet so now over to as and aoin you can choose who starts first but the question here is going to be why do actually why sorry uh why do Dows need treasury managing I mean I don't think they actually like must have it it's just a cost opportunity of not having it in the sense that you have somewhat relevant amount of assets uh there in the treasury and you can either choose to live them there and expose to uh

volatility because most times those assets are like those treasuries are mostly in the native asset of the token so you have like huge volatility and you are exposed um to the market um or you can choose to leverage those funds um and put them to use to reach your goals uh So based on like of course different projects have and different DS have different goals that could be like growing the ecosystem or just you know getting some non-operating revenues um and treasury management helps with that so I don't think it's you know it's a must have it's more like

what's the cost of not doing it lovely oxytocin anything to counter I basically try to um first of all I really agree about the point of something being essential because I feel that like many Dows are way too eager to jump to the point of having a treasury like okay we just uh made a snapshot we have like five whole members voting in it let's go now and make a treasury team which is not the case I'd say that like the best point is when you start seeing treasury management kind of as like housekeeping when you start having like so many different assets that you have to be dealing with so many different teams and initiatives that have to be moved from one place to another so many different wallets especially so many

different multics um the moment you start like really having all of these things running in parallel I'd say that's when you need a treasury management because otherwise imagine having to make a vote for I like to say like voting for the napkins like you're making a party and you have to be voting like what kind of napkin do you want do you want to get what kind of drink and that's what the treasury management is supposed to be doing not making every single voter go like should we get Pepsi or should we get Coke lovely uh to to that point Juan might be a question about employability but what do you feel you and your team does best better than a uh whole Community with direct democracy could do yes so and like just for some some

context like claros is run by a Cooperative in France and that means that we have the possibility of the Cooperative managing the funds and all the management of the funds is doing in like in behalf of the company and like with the aim of support claros growth right and clear's growth is like extremely tied to eum ecosystem and it means that we are relying on ethereum in eer asset so we besides we don't rely on having the doubt deciding on TR management besides there could be a proposal on how to spend certain assets but the whole decision is internal and we have our own framework and the the whole objective is to run what would we called like Risk adjust the best risk

adjusted uh strategies out there like while fostering like ethereum values and decentralization EOS of the whole community so trying to to get an equilibrium between those and not needing to deal like for example are certain Services providers like for example carpat is great because they can manage your Treasury and give you like services like on what your like company needs in terms of ecosystem and everything as not need to focus on do all those strategies also enable you bet maybe to get better risk adjusted returns or depending on how you look at it because it's subjective but yeah I will say that we are only focused on on the returns and preserving capital and in that way okay good point so basically the idea is um you need to

professionalize uh you have to have a professional team running your treasury um in order to be fully aligned in long-term goals yeah I mean uh you you okay for sure you will need in our case it's like only me and and the co-founder of Cl like looking into the strategy since like two years and that means that I we don't have like we have like monthly reports but we don't have all like the added value like other services provider have in terms of like being that Pro present in governance having reports like into the detail all time ER but yeah like you could have different approaches and you that imply different trade-offs so depending how deep you want to go okay and then bringing back

the question to to you guys um is there a balance between this the professional treasury team and governance in decision making of what you do with the Dow's uh funds you start yeah well I mean um sometimes I feel that like treasury management is seen as this big scary show part of a DA because there's at the end of the day kind of like a I don't want to say conflict but it's kind of like they are in a very um two different sides of the table when it comes to negotiating on one hand treasury management they want to be keeping the most assets possible keeping them um managing different positions which sometimes may not be immediately liquid

if you're doing like more of a longterm kind of solution meanwhile Dows usually lean more into like let's spend more let's start this new initiative um sure uh let's go and like do this whole new thing that hasn't been intested um which is obviously like that's the part that makes those fun but I'd say that's the middle point where going back to the question you said sorry I've been giving you my back all this time but um I feel that like voting is require ired basically to like give this periodic um reassurance that like these two opposing teams are still on the same page like do you still agree with the strategies that I'm making do you still believe that like these kind of initiatives are worth

running do you think that these kind of things like maybe should be afforded because we've spoken already about like what happens when you don't have a treasury team or you have a treasury team that's comes way too early but another one that I feel like um it's usually neglected is the idea of you have a treasury team they have a big Power and then like people kind of like forget about them and nobody knows what's happening with them and then like a few months after they come back and they're like oh by the way um something happened and we've only reported it now um again I'm not here to point fingers so it's just like trying to keep these things in mind um but that's why I think we need like these regular votes even if the vote is let's not change anything yeah I mean I think this is

like one point and and I do agree that from time to time you need some sort of checkin um I think another point is like what's like what's the balance between um the the active treasury management that is independent and a de centralized Dow which is decentralized by nature um and so like this is a controversial one and we've explored this for example in the uniswap treas working group and like the point is maybe like the immediate uh thinking could be oh like we want full decentralization because this is what's supposed to be because we are a dow but

then if you think about it we we go back to your napkin example like you don't really want to you know like waste a lot of resources and time of delegates and the da to decide on every single small thing and also sometimes you really need to act quickly and you don't really have the time to wait for a dow vote imagine like a Haw or things like that um and on the other side of course you have treasury managers which ideally would want to be independent because it's more efficient so the point is what's the good balance between operational efficiency and decentralization um and I mean I think

what we do at kpat is close to being a good uh B because for example we have like regular votes and check-ins to make sure that like our operations are aligned with what the da wants and with with where the project is going but also we like the infrastructure that we use make sure that the Dow has full control over the funds they can get them back and we can only like operate with preapproved um a pre-approved set of operations that the DA has approved so it's not like we can do whatever we want we can just you know operate in line with what

the Dow decided I think that's a good uh that's a good balance nice like a true non-custodial treasury yes uh and to summarize your points uh from both of you if I say that you basically leading to points where like governance should be should be done by consent when it comes to Treasury and you should uh let's say delegate the the responsibility down to to a treasury team rather than by consensus of voting everything that's kind of accurate um do you like that statement you want to fight me on this I mean yeah it's fun let's get fighting but um I'd say that like we're also assuming something from delegates I'm now taking the other side of my own opinion to try to get the get the panel going we assume that delegates don't

want to be voting on all these things and sometimes there's things that are kind of taken for granted whenever um these strategies are being managed like choosing the assets or choosing the level of risk um something that I wanted to add myself is that like honestly one of the biggest like underrated points of having a treasury management team has to do with governance burnout um govern governs what burnout so usually like now we've kind of been moving to more professional structures when it comes to Dows you have like these kind of metag governance teams that are like executing the operations but many THS are still like management the community and if you want to be decentralized you want as many different

interest groups and community members taking part on the day-to-day operations so I'm going to say something that's a bit paradoxical but I feel that like taking these votes away from control from the Dao might actually help on the long-term health of the Dao because if you make people come back every two days to be like do you want to swap this for this do you want to restart this thing for that some me members will love it the ones that stay like 10% that want this Max Control but so many members will just get tired of like waking up every morning and having to sign like 20 different transactions to get them going and you lose all these potential community members just keeping them engaged and you lose all this

potential people that like maybe they like your project maybe they like your da but they don't like doing this unpaid work of like checking all these things and making sure they make sense so I don't know for me at least um take a bit of control to make sure that people don't don't get exhausted but I don't know how you see it on the other side of the equation no I do I do agree I do agree and I also think that sometimes for example people I mean not not everyone is financially educated enough to be able to make sure like or to understand what a good decision is like I mean there are things that maybe like easier to understand but sometimes you have more complex actions that you need

to perform um in treasury management operations and like you need to have a good understanding of how like the technical infrastructure Works how the financial part works and I mean not not everyone has this knowledge uh By Nature so I think that asking to every delegate to participate in every single decision on this defeats the purpose of having you know professional treasury management like acting for you that's like the point of appointing a treasury manager is that you are appointing someone that knows best I think that's in general not just about treasury management can I

make a pretty followup question like um there's more of a higher level I don't know how much you get involved in like the daily like Dow votes operations but like what you were saying now makes me feel like this is probably something that happens often like how do you avoid um going to the community and like avoiding like this like we know better than you um thing like this Gap in information like is there something that like can be done to make sure that like you handle operations without feeling that like you're taking control away from the da with these operations I mean I I think as karpak we go back to the DA quite often in the sense that I mean for example just now

we have like a proposal in safe and we we already have like treasury management mandate for the um gnosis safe joint treasury so we could literally do that but we are still going back to the Dow because it's slightly different than the initial plan so I feel like we go back to the DA quite often sorry you go back to the DA to be transparent in reporting or to have them vote on a like a path V I mean we we do reporting monthly and then every six months we do a bigger report and then with some Dows we literally go back for reapprovals but also for example in this case um it's for to enable like um an

incentives initiative so that's like slightly different than our initial mandate it's still we still think it makes sense but we are going back to the DA again to ask for their approval so I feel like on in our case we go back to the Dow quite often while at the same time not losing operational efficiency for example we wouldn't go back to the Dow for every time we need to rebalance a pool that doesn't make sense also the voting process is like one month so you know it's it's not efficient and not viable fantastic uh I want to hear more from Juan um particularly I think I like this comparison of having kPa key as

being a church manager for multiple Dows uh while Juan steam is m Tre management for a single Dow um how do I want to ask like how the day today Compares but more more importantly like what sort of strategies uh you are implementing for ketos and if you're looking at a different Dow would you change those or it simply a everyone should kind of follow the same uh strategy alignment yeah so and for cl itself and then to be to enter into others H basically as I mentioned we run a portfolio that is eer like I would say 70% eer so what we do is we know that we are long-term alive with the FM

ecosystem and like that translates into e the asset and we have for the short term like one year one year and a half like Stables to be able to have the r one and then we have a very big for like at least a company like claros and like in the average crypto like treasury like around like $23 million in which on on if er um in which sorry $25 million I will say like 70% that is if so we run strategies without impermanent loss to be able to get all the upside in the longterm of if while also being able to fulfill like daily operations and being like 100% Capital efficient and covers those in like am less amount of transactions in regards to the daily operations

itself basically we we have what we call like a risk adjusted API framework in which we estimate the what's the risk for a strategy and we compare with the actual Market APR of a strategy the estimation of the risk is subjective you cannot give an objective number of what's the risk because you can Pate what's the Lan effects of how many months this smart contract is live versus like if there is a vector of fact in governance or what's the liquidity on the secondary Market of diesel p and then like you compare with an objective metric that is okay what's the amount of APR that this Str is yielding and also like you have need to have like a lot of things into consideration like you need you need to talk with the teams or like providing and like those yelds let's say

and like if there's an incentive program like how long it will last because if you have like a very big size and you and want to will enter for like one one week and this applies for every size actually like it doesn't make sense the swap feet for entering the position and then rebalancing the same like like like more lower level things like for example if you're swapping uh like if you're some swapping and you go like TR and you swapp in certain front ends you'll have 30 BPS extra just for swapping on certain front ends so being careful with that and lastly what like we are pretty proud of is not only having what we think is the better risk adjusted returns but also like better like Risk

adjust returns while being like aligned to ethereum values that's why we are all here right so for instance let's say uh when there was this discussion on hey G EX client is like 70% and what's what's the risk this imp play for the whole ecosystem and we go go to talk with different lsts providers LRT providers in that moment only l so what's your current execution client and diversity like and trying to only support and like those execution clients that were running minor minority clients in certain moment in time same with like if an LST is like at certain moment in time like majority over 33% like start to supporting minority lsts obviously when

the measuring the risk of of the ETC and and yeah like I mean if you want to like go beyond you can think of okay for the fum Community itself it's important that layer twos that are getting a lot of traction actually enter stage two and they make efforts to enter stage two like and Elevate the standard and the and of the industry so like from next year onwards only like start to deploying if strategies without impermanent loss on those layer like you can check in l2b like which and chain S stage to or like talk with the team like how close you see so basically aligning paning having a a big Panorama of what's the market what's the

r of of each strategy and also trying to keep dise equilibrium between having the best RIS just returns while seeing how can you contribute like to the F ecosystem nice essentially uh in a way with c's uh fund voting without money voting on client uh yeah yeah like like we are lucky enough to have a pretty big treasury so that means it might have like some implies so some lsts if we talk like this important and we like we can talk like for example with with kpat or like other that also is aligned with these values and we transmit these to the LST providers and make them understand why and like maybe have impact on certain decisions fantastic and it's a perfect uh segue uh to grabbing the governance

people and asking them uh what is what is is unique uh value proposition from treasury teams towards governance what can you benefit the the Dao itself um by what you know and what you do yeah I mean I I I don't see them as necessarily related like governance and treasury management of course like being involv involved in governance also benefits treasure Management in the sense that I mean whenever you do asset management even if it's not not for a treasury you need to be aligned with the project because like the project still has goal that it it wants to reach so as

a treasury management you need to make sure that your operations are in line with the goals of that project um and being part of governance can help with that in the sense that being part of governance requires you to be act actively involved with the community it requires you to chat with the community and to know what's going on to know what the goals are know what the initiatives are so in a sense you benefit um as a treasury management to also you know work in governance uh but I I don't think there's like a direct relation where you cannot be a treasury management unless you work in governance

for that specific project so I agree with you but just to make a panel I'm going to pretend that I don't and thank you so much I'm going to say that like I disagree for the sole reason that like many treasury management teams obviously since they're a service they work for different um DS and different organizations and I feel that like if you don't have a governance presence in that um system that you're managing it's possible that at least the da could believe that like you're not actually aligned with the assets that you're managing so for example ex Le I have like I know some of the projects that you work with like thanks thank you for my noses pay cash back but um let's

say that like um you have like two different projects that are like working like they're not competitors but they're close enough to be competitors and you're managing both assets if you don't have a governance presence in both of them if you only have it in one of them or even worse if you have it in neither there's no way to know if you're actually working on the best interests of the people you're managing isn't there yeah I mean yes and no in the sense that in the end like as a treasury manager you still need to report back to the Dow and show them like that you have results and results that align with the project so if the goal of the project is to you know like not to be exposed to too much

risk while still preserving funds like you cannot like go and get uh like 50% healed on on whatever pool so and that's like whether you are part of governance or not you still need to you know be responsible about that and go back to the DA and report back to them on what you did so I do agree that having a governance presence is definitely helpful for treasury management but I still think that if you operate treasury management like responsibly um you still need to be transparent and in line with the Dow otherwise you you're just doing whatever and you're not really serving the Dow

that you are serving full transpar with me now I lost a little pen um okay actually this uh makes allows me to ping pong back to Juan on a point I again couple years ago I was in treasuring management at large corporations very different Beast to what they is and and encrypt in general um is there anything that you see that I mean they do a lot of things right and a lot of things wrong any good practices from traditional uh treasury management that you think uh crypto hasn't uh caught up with it yeah so um okay what one of the

things uh and first I I used to also use a lot of traditional Finance Benchmark and I like sadly see that at least in when you analyze fundamentally projects in crypto versus like traditional Finance like the actual the metrics of the impact on price and everything is totally different so beyond that that I find is interesting and I hope it catch UPS like in the long term because it's like yeah more interesting like to value something I would say like some treasury management aspects that like are very used like in in tradational finance well we have seen some examples of like for example importance of like zero coupon Bonds in trfi and how this reflects uh like in defi that we have seen like Pendle then we can see like what's what's the option derivate volume and

how professional treasure managements use derivates like to use their their management and I think that that also will grow like exponentially and maybe we have like some liquidity fragmentation that is a problem and we have some yeah technical implications but for example like options puts is something like I think that needs decos system to Bol and there are couple of te like yeah panoptic gamas that really interesting projects like to take a look like to how they're building and how they're aiming to build this and it's 100% useful like for Treasure management we has their own protocol on liquidity and you have like a lot of native tokens so that's like one of things I more bullish and then like some something I'm disappointed today is that like you as a treasury manager like say like one year

and a half ago like we saw very like very good risk adjusted Returns on like on certain strategy and we allocate Capital but for risk diversification I can't expose my portfolio to certain amount amount of Assets in this protocol and be besides how look I how good I see the Returns on that asset because it allows me kn permanent loss Etc and so we went went to buy insurance and there was no no size on insurance so and no like no pricing H and there's like nothing can be be built to solve it so that's another thing that will be built like uh soon I think uh okay I'm going to if anyone wants to make a final comment the final statement and then

we're going to open the questions to the floor the audience uh brace yourselves I think uh I will add something like in the last point because I'm seeing now like the gaunlet there like and when you talk about risk creators and governance that's something that in traditional Finance there's no match yeah you have like uh yaho Finance post like Bloomberg post everything but you don't have like Risk creators making their like information public sharing with the community and Beyond like when I started in management like 3 years ago and there was like no like no one care about it and much and there was no more information and like I made all the research by myself and today also like it's still being that way but you have

like way more tooling on all these risk creators like that you have in different Dow that make the information public and like enables like the community to have like a wider vision of like of the of the RIS of certain project and it's something that I think that we have in defi that is not that present in trfi and I is awesome so yeah nice I just had a final point I wanted to ask like more to the ter managers here we've been talking here about like every time you go back to a DA like um having accountability and making sure that everyone is happy obviously when things go well it's pretty easy the vote passes Kumbaya but like I'm curious like is there usually do you know any example of when things didn't go that way like

any maybe from other uh managers or other protocols where like people said like no we don't want this stop it change it like usually what tends to be like the hottest contention point when you go back to the community is it like you're dealing with this asset you're using too much leverage or what are usually these kind of points that like make more back and forth happen with the Dow I mean I would say honestly it's the initial part so actually like when like understanding whether a dow wants try management at all or not in the sense that and I would say for example um like treasury diversification it it's

underappreciated in the sense that like there are still various DS that like want to just keep the Assets in the native token because for whatever reason like they believe the market will go up or they want to just you know spend in the native token and that's a that's a decision of course it's just that you know I mean like it it of course the fact that you have the whole treasury in a single asset has certain risks that a diversified portfolio doesn't have or at least has like a lower amount um so I think one of the main points of

controversy is actually the initial part of understanding whether you actually whether a dow actually wants treasury management over their Treasury and like and specifically decide if they decide they want they want it understanding for example like the diversification aspect um it's very it's a controversial point where I've seen many people uh say that they they don't want it they just want to keep and spend the native asset so I think that's definitely like a challenge that we still see see um yeah I think like on that point I don't have much experience on like

feedback of the community and need to respond to a community besides we can and we do sometimes but I think that if you're like need to deal with a treasury like in which you need to give other services and treasury management and you need to for example Foster other communities you might need to like deploy capital on certain protocols that maybe is not the best risk adjusted returns and I think there's probably like when the community could come and say you hey like maybe you're deploying here because like you're like we trying to fostering this these decks but actually like check how this like the the formula they use like in these other Decks that allows you to reduce lbr or whatever like H so I think that's like something that is hard to manage and

it's something that I personally like wouldn't like to obtain much if your goal is like just to maximize risk at just returns right uh so I it's like a balance and that's why you have different people building on different stuff and and so so nice fantastic does our lovely audience have any questions for our panelists I see a hand there few hands here we have one here fantastic yeah a question to to ju so um you mentioned that uh you like making uh or you can get the better risk adjusted reward um but in the end you're running The Treasure of a doubt you're not running a hedge fund so yeah um so my point is that the goal is not to

maximize return is to support the Dow goals so H how do you cover against some risk like smart contract risk that you're exposing yourself yeah by deploying in these strategies so that's why when I when I say risk adjusted returns is like going back from to the framework in which we estimate the risk and that estimation of the risk makes that that's also includes preserving Capital what I mean with that is h i don't I I I don't support likea of like I will just like LP the I managing a treasury and just LP I know like in unisa because it's like the mob battle tested like like protocol and I will just deploy there because I don't want

to understand how other protocols work and what are the implication of that if your final answer is like let's say I only provide liquidity in Unis Swap and might be the right answer but what I refer to is that the the process of why you arrive that conclusion should be like different and should be what's the actual risk of a certain strategy and like what a certain return like H and in going to clar us like yeah we like actually the Mandate of the treasury manage is legally like be able to support Clos like development and and be able like everything we do like to support claros development and that implies like etherum ecosystem uh so like preserving Capital while having risk adjust returns and taking in

consideration like that indeed that estimation of risk you are trying to preserve Capital as like the Mandate H and not it's not simply like good looking for the best returns because if not like if you I look for the best returns and maybe like I like and yeah you have like a ton of stuff but you will see in our reports that we are not aing into like a something that is uh new like maybe uh and 100% APR like or with in permanent loss Etc so no no meme coins no mem coins Sly no no M coin how unfortunate great uh any other questions I think I saw a hand over here there quite a

few hey just talk just talk hey hey oh louder louder okay um so I I've been understanding um the definition of Treasury Management in terms of preservation but do you think uh treasury management is not also uh related to fundraising and uh the same way that we've seen professional treasury management teams there are also professional fundraising uh teams that uh can do like Grant as a service or like manage um not only preserve a portfolio but actually

create one for a project so um yeah do you think that treasury management uh can be also uh something that includes this fundraising and grants as a service or do you think that there are two different things and that a dow should have a treasury management team and a fundraising team or the treasury management team is something that can be uh higher Ed as a third party uh to cover both needs yeah I I think the tri manager can also be fundraiser and help with fundraising uh specifically because I

think that they are very related so for example if you need to diversify like your assets it's implied that you also need to sell whatever asset you already have uh to get that diversification um so I mean it is definitely related to fundraising as well and I I do think that fundraising should be either part of Treasury management when like that's aligned with the project goals um or if it's a separate thing it should definitely be a cohesive strategy done with treasury

management um so I think that also falls into having a single treasury manager or multiple treasury managers um where ideally having a single one it's more cohesive and more efficient strategically uh if you have multiple ones it's inherently more inefficient and if you decide to have multiple ones you really need to make sure that they are working towards the same goal because for example if you have a fundraising team and the treasury management team that are different and they're working towards different goals then I mean it's a mess it's not just inefficient it's just they're literally

working towards different goals um and this is like this creates inefficiencies and potentially losses as well and for Grants same thing I I think that's slightly different but again I think treasury management could ve grants as well because grants are just you know costs for the Dow and so it it should definitely be like again a cohesive strategy where if you are issuing grants you are having operating costs for the Dow that you somehow need to account for when you do treasury management operations

Counterpoint keep them separate keep them in different rooms only make them speak through each other with the with the forums um I understand the points that were raised before with efficiency but I feel that like especially decentralized structures are inefficient by nature and there's going to be a lot of things that are going to be costing a lot more just for the cost of decentralization and this my personal opinion not Financial advice not D advice but I already feel that like treasury management already has a lot of power within a dow they already have like the ability of like what strategies they have to be making like what kind of diversification strategies have to be done and giving them other like very major Powers obviously it would be more

efficient to also have the same team allocating for different initiatives or like doing different Ventures but by separating them by making like different positions on the Dows you get to have like much more equalized balance of power especially like if you have like different goals set up for which one and each one having like a different Mission then it still goes back to this like balance of powers within ad Dow I feel that like if you want the original treasury manager to also be a service provider for Grants or for Venture Investments um it sounds extremely bureaucratic solution but you could make multiple places open and allow people to

apply into more than one position because that means that the token holders are happy to be having them in these multiple positions and I feel it's very important to have the isol like this as well because if you put them all together as one then if the service provider is maybe like a good treasury management but not as good of a grants provider you're kind of like hoping that they stick with one of them like yeah they're both tied basically so I don't know it's better that you keep fighting for both job positions as opposed to just like keeping them um chained together you know I mean I agree that it needs to be approved by the da I agree on that I just think think that it needs to be cohesive otherwise

you're like working against yourself which could also work like sometimes having separate approaches like if the Dow is willing to allocate these things like you have like 10,000 tokens and you like okay 204 strategy that goes in this direction 20 strategy that goes in this direction if that's what they want um let them vote on it but I understand that it's not efficient but it's the cost of decentralization agree to dis agree I'm loving this that's what a panel is any other questions got one here uh here awesome first row where would you get it okay hello uh two questions uh the first one is what kind of metrics uh

da need to accomplish before thinking a treasury management team and the second one is how a treasure management team need to be evaluate to you know to be align with the short and longterm uh objectives so this is more of a yard stick than anything else but based on what I've seen in Dow A good rule of thumb is that like you should be feeling the need to have a treasury management team as opposed to I feel like we are a dow so we need a treasury management team the two sound very similar but like if you don't feel the pressure of

managing a treasury like like sometimes creating one without much need ends up being a loss of resources and time for many people because maybe like you have such a small treasury that like you're paying like your biggest expense might be the treasury team itself and they don't even know what to do with the small treasury amount that they have so for me at least that's the biggest metric of like you need a treasury management team so I don't know you have like different things that like one person couldn't be tracking by itself you have a amounts that like you don't trust putting on a votes every single time that could also be another one or the final metric and I feel that's the one that like we all kind of agree here

is the time window the moment you start making operations that like cannot be executed within whatever long it takes on your da to execute a vote one week two weeks one month that's when you need somebody to be obstructing the difficulties away like if all you do in your treasury is to like send from wallet a to Wallet be that's okay but if you need them to be like swapping with a certain amount or be like withdrawing be doing these things then maybe that's when you also need a treasury management team in my opinion agree fantastic uh I really want to go go over time but I'm not seeing good phases can I go over time we don't have more

time further debate I just see one question there one more uh Sir Nick is it I hope it's kind of short one so Ellis mentioned that uh they operate treasury with pre-approved set of actions that da has a explicit approval for to treer management team so my question is considering this information and that probably there are some clear rules which you follow as a treasury management team should it be the treasury management a human or a smart contract love it a just

kidding well um it depends on what you want to achieve in the sense that there are some operations that I think can be automated and like we we are exploring that for example but um to be honest today we don't have the infrastructure to make everything automated that's a simple question um and then sorry a simple answer and then there are benefits in having humans um be treasury managers uh specifically because I mean like the simple ones again can be automated but then you have additional benefits on having humans as treasury managers for example let's say that you like a project a Project's goal

is to is growth um then of course you can leverage the treasury to do that in automated ways but also the fact that you have humans involved can give you like additional soft things that automation could give you like Partnerships for example or the network and the ecosystem on boarding uh new projects into your ecosystem things like that they cannot really be automated and still they can be achieved by treasury management just close off ju do you get should you get replaced by AI smart contract I hope not I will bet that no yeah now actually

like the the partner partnership things and like human contact is is so key H that yeah I find it hard you could have tools but yeah if I I'm able to have some good contacts and I know that some if is sent there in a lending market and that lowers my borrow rate for the next week I don't think a smart contact can say me that or maybe I can I will eager to see how if it happens fantastic well thank you very much to everyone attending and our panelist and lovely host have a good day let's go thank you very much guys