What is The Interop Endgame? With Hyperlane

Transcript

GM g g hyper and G modular what's up John welcome back you're no stranger to the show Welcome to igen lay unlocked an interactive educational Journey Through the Igan lay ecosystem created by technical Founders and builders for the entire crypto Community a special thank you to our partners allir polymer authentic skate and LR for helping to make this happen our goal is to raise the collective knowledge of the I L ABS ecosystem and unpack the technical designs of the top teams in space welcome to igen lay unlocked GM G G hyperlane and G modular what's up John welcome back jcole on the

show thank you for joining us again this time for a modular igen layer presentation um you're no stranger to the show so I think everyone here knows you're here and uh yeah man you guys have had a bunch of like really exciting developments coming out of the out of the woodwork here and uh one of the modular teams that are shipping day in and day out so Kudos on all the latest shipments and uh very excited to dig into uh some of those that are uh most recent and most exciting um and again thank you for coming on the show again it's always course no always always happy to be here I think we're going to have uh you know a fun time today what I'll say before we get started is um

you know I'm going to be a little bit uh more loose less sharp than less crisp than uh you know maybe folks on the show are used to think of it like some a big big fan of standup and you know like the best comedians when they go on their tour the uh first few stops they're like testing out the new material they're seeing what hits what works it's going to be a little bit like that today uh so we're going to get to it and before we dive in I'm going to give you an overview of what we're going to be talking about today we're going to keep it simple and so to start we're going to be touch briefly on what's already been built and what you can do with what's already been built then we're going to talk about why it matters now if this was a pitch deck

right if they were like a you know a venture a team trying out there to to raise Venture money think of this is being like the problem section now I know most people like to open with their problem section and you know that's cool not one of those people I like to open by telling you what is the that's happening here as a brief introduction and then build a foundation uh of what the problem is and then go back to how that problem is being addressed in more depth once we've covered the problem we're going to get into what's coming next how it relates to those problems specifically and how it builds on what already is there and most importantly what you're going to be able to do with it so it's on now so today we're going to be talking about an

open framework for interoperability like what is that that even mean right well there's numerous ways today to go about interoperability about connecting chains but there aren't many ways to do it with an open framework now in fact I'd say that there really two open Frameworks for interoperability the first being IBC and the second being hyperlane and guess what today we're going to be talking about hyperlane so earlier I told you we're going to start by talking about what's already been built so uh as a brief uh hyperlane and what exists today to really better understand everything I'm going to be telling you today let me also give you some insight into how we view the world really think of this as

like this is our point of view so before we ever started building hyperline before we even started thinking about what will eventually become hyperlink we you know my co-founder and I really believed firmly that if crypto was going to scale if it was going to serve an internet scale of demand through blockchains we're going to need to horizontally scale right like the internet doesn't run on one gigantic server that's like underground somewhere despite there's like a great South Park episode where everything is basically in an underground server somewhere well they in reality is not built like that it's like an ungodly large number of servers distributed all over the world and our view is that blockchains will scale horizontally in a similar way now

the audience may know this as the modular thesis right ethereum's rollup road map Call It Whatever ever you want but we believed firmly that this is the way that things are going to pan out as far back as 3 four years ago and this High conviction view that there has to be an increasingly large number of chains that view is the basis for every decision we've been making in building hyperlane right so a world with an increasingly large number of chains with an accelerating number of chains must have a permissionless and scalable form of interoperability to connect those chains to make sense of all those chains we got to have a way for anyone to connect any chain and certainly to do

that you need an open source framework and that's why we built and build hyperlane as the open framework for interoperability so I'm going to move to the next one I just told you letting anyone connect any chain well it sounds kind of simple but it's obviously much harder than it looks but today anyone who's watching us right now anyone can go to the hyperlane docs they can download the CLI and they can get started deploying hyperlane to any chain and then get that chain connected with any other that already has hyperlane right so like let's see if the rollup decides to launch its own rollup today you can do this with hyperland but

I would say that this really it's just kind of the tip of the iceberg you know if you take a step take it a step further you get what I like to call an in an inter obser or you know maybe a trade Alliance like bear with me on this for a little bit because we haven't settled on naming here so it's all a work on progress this is part of that like material testing element but once you develop that capability of letting anyone connect any chain the really cool thing you can do with it is not just these you know these one-off connections it's much more than that it's this it's this idea of a sort of interop Zone you know you keep hearing about all these ecosystems and

you know they're like we're all going to have our own native form of interoperability right but I would say outside of polygon I don't know if anyone that's actually delivered um on this so far right it's you know it's true that they all say it and that's amazing and we know that these people are hard at work at it but nothing's there yet well today already today with hyperlane this can be done for any ecosystem and in just a second we're going to talk about one of the first cases of this happening so you know if you're listening to this and you're at one of these places I'll say don't spend all the bandwidth all the resources spinning your wheels here just use hyperlink and so super Lane you may have

seen this come out um in the past week super Lane is a collaboration between vrone which for those who happen to be unfamiliar one of the largest apps in the optim ISM ecosystem and certainly one of the largest dexes so this is the first such interop Zone and we're going to dive much deeper into this specifically in just a few minutes uh and really everything else that I've said but uh this should be moving into production in the next few weeks and this is an effort that was really spearheaded by the vome team in fact they did so much of it already before even bringing it up to us and they were only able to do that because

hyperlane is as I've been saying right an open framework like I really can't think of any other uh tool in the interoperability landscape that would allow them to do this and with hyperline they all able to go kind of from zero to 100 really so quickly you know they've only been working with hyber Lan for like a couple of months so it's kind of Bonkers to even think about it but the brief Onin what is it it's a distinct security Zone with distinct validators that can and will serve any and all interested members um of the super chain Alliance and in my view it's going to be something that is a precursor to the super chain native form of

interoperability so earlier I told you I like to lay out what the thing is in a simple way and then get into the problem and kind of explain why it matters so we're going to do that so why doesn't matter you know you can look at this very compelling uh stock photo here that I found of a man pondering that was the the search that I had so you must be pondering as well like what's going on so let me tell you why it matters so beyond the obvious that we covered earlier when I was talking about the uh point of view that we have here the point of view that informs everything we do it's pretty clear now to any stute Observer that the industry is moving at a Breck n pace and not only

is the number of chains increas the number of chain architectures uh that are being used that are being adapted that's also increasing right just in the role of space right go back 18 months go back 24 months you know two years you really you had only op stack uh to begin with and then quickly right like this op stack that was really just like an evm extension now you got uh just within evm rollups like multiple distinct stack you got op you got orbit you got zky you got polygon cdk and I'm sure that I'm even missing some Right add on to that you're also seeing an increased amount of svm based

rollups right like hyperlane just launched with eclipse the I want to say the first uh svm based stroll up and what I can tell you is that what we see from the folks we work with that there is now even Divergence in the architectures in inm just as we saw within the evm right like this is happening there too and we haven't even gotten to right the the fact that beyond that you have other VMS like move like telegram Cosmos sne that list goes on and I think of course you're going to see VM diver you know like stack Divergence architecture Divergence there and you know like a great example of

this is I'm sure over the course of the show you've talked about things like move like inisha and now imagine having to manage all that complexity just because you want to access like more than a handful of chains like come on now right that's just not manageable but there's more right now in the current day even the interoperability you do have between these rollups it's it's pretty sparse like it's so often that we talk to folks who you would really think like have this all covered have this all figured out and they're like man like no we we have no easy way to connect between our chain and this like big other chain that you've definitely heard of and I'm

like no no way and they're like no way yeah for sure it's and it is um somewhat down founding that it's still the case in you know the year of Our Lord 2024 soon to be 2025 but it seems to be true and there's even more the last few things I'd say here in terms of why this matters why the problem that this open framework is was and will be meant to tackle are quite relevant well first because more often than not basically everywhere outside of IBC interrup ability is still to this day pretty permission you know like it's gatee kept you got to talk to somebody and then

they got to do something and they may even have to talk to another somebody and like why do we get into crypto right I don't have to talk to anybody before I just just develop an app and and build it and launch it on ethereum I don't have to talk to anybody before I do that with salana with any uh public blockchain like why is it here that I have to do that it's not a choice I just kind of have to now say you're like you know what I don't want to talk to anybody I'm going to do it all myself well good luck to you because now you're looking at spending an ungodly amount of your resources just to try and build an interupt scratch interupt stack from scratch and by the way that's not even

something that it relates remotely to your value prop to the things that are in the realm of your core competence right why should you as a startup as a organization with very finite very limited resources why should you do that and like trust me it sucks to build an interrupt stack from scratch like I know because we've had to do it right and of course last but not least you know you did did all that work you got it all done you put in that resources well now that the software is done well now you got to Wrangle up a group of operators and you got to get them to come power this thing that you built and that is of course no

fun and so that's where something like hyperlane right this notion of an open framework for interoperability comes in so what we're going to go on now is more so than what we've talked about to this point is why an open framework like hyperlane addresses these problems that we just covered think of the first thing I mentioned right that this industry moves at uh a break neck Pace in which there is an increasingly rapid adoption of multiple chains multiple architectures multiple Stacks now you're you're just a developer out there it's it's been made so easy for you to launch a chain so you go ahead

you do that and you just want it to be able to connect with all these new ecosystems or if you're not you're not a someone who's building a chain you're an AB Builder you're an AB Builder who's really like an asset issuer where your product is a token like say you're a stable coin you're an LRT and LSD what do you do how do you deal with a problem like this and how do you take on all that complexity without going insane and really running out of resources which is of course the death of your operation well hyperlane this open framework it gives you a singular consistent interface for all of your

interoperability needs that interface stays the same but you you keep expanding so you just saved a tremendous amount of development time and now when you need to expand the new chains either this interface this hyperlink thing it's either already there today hyperline are you know I want to say already over or close to uh 80 different main Nets and that number is going to keep uh Rising but say it wasn't there by some odd twist of fate no one's done it yet you can do that yourself because like we talked about before anyone can go on the uh hyperlane docs download that CLI and get going and

now switch the slide by the diagram still there you look at this beautiful diagram you'll see that the last step here or I guess the penultimate step step number five is the interchain security module so I'll tell you I don't think it really would be an open framework if you were forced to settle for something if you were forced to just accept something as is if you couldn't uh Wrangle it change it customize it to your needs and wants right that is what makes a framework a framework and to to me this piece the the security module piece that to me is where the magic of something like hyperland is really borne out of it's the flexibility it's the control

that you can have over what is an integral part of the interoperability stack of course security so it's a usually for most people bridging for their chain or app means inherently developing a material a massive dependency on a third party and really trusting that third party now imagine you're one of those asset issuers that I was talking about right you're literally explicitly putting your entire business your entire product in the hands of a third party and some people totally okay with that in some settings at some point the

stakes get so high that it starts being a little bit offputting and so should you do that well i' say not today not with the open framework right hyperline lets you the integrator whether you're a chain you're an app somebody's neighbor whoever you are it lets you dictate what that security should be so an ism right this interchange security module it can be anything that provides a state ad station or a state proof so think of it uh you know as ranging from as simple as like hey you know using some you know signatures from like a validator stay at

the station right all the way to as complex and amazing as some form of ZK magic you can even use multiple security modules and stack them together in aggregate you can use just one now best of all you never need to depend on any default settings you can use hyperlane without ever using a module that's being run by anyone other than than you that to me is what it means to be an open framework right you take it you run it you own it you operate it if you want to you don't have to but if you want to having that flexibility I kind of liken it to why do crypto companies especially the ones who hold our funds in custody

why do they many times operate very differently from the financial institutions that we're used to from say Banks right well as Fargo treats me a certain way because Wells Fargo kind of knows that I don't really have an easy way to opt out like any other bank I'm going to go to is going to basically treat me the same present the same obstacles and the same inconveniences that they do but if you're coinbase coinbase knows that the end of the day you meet anyone who's on coinbase we can opt out we can just click withdraw and we can be our own bank right we can self custody and that completely changes the thinking process the incentives

decision- making of how they operated and similarly presenting that type of optionality uh in so far as interoperability is concerned I think is very very important so not only do you get that level of flexibility but because these modules are adaptive because they do not uh impact the interface that you're using to communicate between the chains when there's an advance in like the state-of-the-art of security new modules are built for those advances and you as the integrator you can adapt to those new modules and you don't have to rip out your integration you don't have to

like move to the next new shiny thing you basically go from looking at this module to that module and so we covered hyperland a little bit I got I got a quick question for you so so let let's say I'm you know I uh I'm GNA hop back to the previous slide here so like the the interchain security module let's say you know I'm running my chain you're running your chain and I just want to be super like I'm small brain so like my security is like a two of two multisig or even a one of one multisig right one of one yeah make it the most basic okay okay and then let's say your chin like you got fullon ZK aggregation

like cryptographic ZK proofs magic for your module right and let's say we're connected via hyperin is there like is there a weakest link or strongest link type of assurance here between the two because I'm like very clearly using a pretty weak link for my security module yours is much much stronger so does mine get like leveled up to yours does yours get down okay okay let me tell you so the way that it really works is the security module is kind of independent to what happens on that chain and anything that comes out of that chain so like the messages that will come out of my you know bulletproof ZK magic when

wherever you accept them on your chain any other chain that wants to accept them it knows it's been secured by the bulletproof thing when I choose to accept yours from your uh I was going to use an unkind word but then I will say I will say cozy you know how like when you look at apartment listings and it's like it's basically a closet you know that they're masting as an apartment they'll call it cozy and Charming if I want to receive messages from your chain that has a cozy and Charming tiny multisig module I am now accepting those and so you kind of get the benefit of uh when you accept for me you get all the good stuff I get the

disadvantage of like if I want to do you know Commerce with if I want to have stuff coming in from your side I can only get the best that you have to offer and in this case unfortunately the best you have to offer is like this cozy presumably insecure uh more fraught with risk setting so that's how it works got it one of these days we'll level up my apartment to a to a fully CK magic secure that's right and then when you can do that because you're already using hyperland basically like that you get you now like okay now I have the magic module it's not like you got to go and restart everything everything stays the

same and now you're basically going from oh okay I was using the Cozy thing now I get to use the ZK magic thing uh so next up you know this thing I was starting to tell you about earlier super Lan and I would argue that to date this is the best you know example the best manifestation of hyperlane as this open framework for interoperability now at its core what super Lane really is it is a super chain specific module built to serve you know super chain member chains and it has distinct

validators and is separate from any existing uh hyperlane module so to start it's going to have uh this grouping a five and then grow the set from there and that set is replicated on all the relevant super chains that one access to Super Lane such that like you know we avoid the case that we just talked about that was actually like a perfect uh you know transition question because what uh super Lane kind of is is instead of me having right like a super beefy setup you having a um more modest setup what vr's done is put together the same setup that we can both use and that

way there is no discrepancy when we move between place to place and again because they're all uh super chain members like the weakest link basically it's you either think that like op stack is Battle tested and has the good stuff or that it is not uh and of course I think by now pretty clear that the answer is that um that's pretty good and so you get a replicated trust assumption on all the chains regardless of your starting point and now utilizing this module velodrome is also going to offer cross chain swaps between all different V drone pools on the different

chains that are part of the super chain now to be like very clear they could have done that without the super Lane thing they just felt that the best way the most attractive way for them to do that is to combine these two things right so think of like you know mode Lisk Bas World chain you know uh uni chain when it's live pretty soon any other super chain that wants to uh have this type of experience can now get that and you know you're talking about really like a seamless kind of like buttery smooth uh interoperability experience that can come in in lie of

the super chain native interoperability that we all know is coming and that set of security can continue to grow and I think like really cool um thing that V Drome is doing here is that they're utilizing their own token to incentivize uh and encourage that security set and so super Lane is really the first such like distinct the what I've been calling interupt Zone that covers a specific ecosystem but I'm damn sure that it won't be the last and like if you ask me what's so cool about these interrupt zones is well first they can be created by anyone for any ecosystem today right like you don't have to wait

now they can adapt to any security controls that you'd like just kind of like we were talking about before with the the module concept at large so if we stick uh to the super Lane concept but we all know like I was just saying right there is going to be a super chain native form of interoperability so every Super chain member gets access to this type of experience in the interim once the super chain native interoperability is live all the apps that use super Lane for their interoperability they can upgrade to the native form of inoperability without having to reinvent anything just going from hey I was pointing at Super Lane now I'm going to point at the like

super chain native uh ISM which will use the thing that op ends up releasing and benefit from that uh as the trust assumption for this form of interoperability so you're getting pretty future proofed right like you can kind of have your cake and eat it too you get the best interupt experience that can be had within your ecosystem today and then without any real sacrifice you get the best one tomorrow when it's there when it's live and so what I'd say is right if like if you're listening to us right now and you're at ZK sync you're at arbitrum you're any one of the rollup service providers well you can use hyperlane to create the

interupt zone and provide that uh silky smooth interrup experience that singular trust assumption experience right that's shared across all of the members in your zone for all of your users and you can massively massively shorten your development Time by using this open framework and get to Market ASAP with the best inclass kind of features and really just do it you know in a few weeks versus several months or in some cases even years and you can do this with a framework that is truly open source and best part you never have to talk to anyone who works on hyperlane as you do so you might want to but you never ever have to and and kind of last

thing on this of course they can all communicate any one of the chains in your Zone can communicate directly with any other chain outside your zone so long as it has hyperlane even across VM lines to me that's like what a truly permissionless form of interoperability looks like though of course we would have then what we talked about earlier with like the example between you and me where those zones are not going to likely have like the same trust assumption got it and and so suppose I say hey John you know that sounds pretty good I I think I'll take that that offer of the best interrupt today and still you know the ability to upgrade when my native solution comes out and and so if

I take that offer and I'm in iper lane today and then say you know some sometime down the and so you know I'm connected today I'm connected in say super lane and then I'm also via hyperlane connected to arbitrum orbit zky and Solana as this diagram shows and then later on down the road you know super chain comes out with their native interrupt experience would that break my connection to these other zones salana so I can I can maintain the connectivity to these other enemy zones if you will through hyperlane and then I can also within my zone I can have my native experience yes the the only two things you'll need to do is first within your Zone basically

say hey we were all pointing at that contract that was like the original Super Lane one and now we're going to point at this other module contract that represents the like super chain native and then as the uh app that accepts it like in any of the other zones you need to say oh wait so we were all cool with accepting the first module we're now doing the same thing we're pointing from here to here so those two actions and everything else stays the same so there has to be some type of like informed consent of like wait they just switch something I want to make sure that like I don't uh just like fall

victim to uh their choice without any consent on my side but you do those two steps good to go awesome and so that would occur on the on the salana the ZK sync arbitrum side they would have to basically Bally thumbs up this new uh reset uh receiver the thing that they're receiving is now coming from the super chain native rather than the super Lane exactly right exactly right got it and so you know so far we talked about using hyperlane for an ecosystem like super chain but you know what if you're an ad Builder can you get something like this as well and yes yes you can so uh excuse me I'm getting a

little U little burps here uh you're an asset issuer you know your product is a token of some sort maybe stable coin LST LRT again should you put all the eggs uh all of your eggs in the basket of like some third party provider depending on where you're at maybe maybe not now if you don't want to here's how you can get around it with hyperlane you have the choice to place yourself on a spectrum of how involved do you want to be in the security of your bridging all the way from zero to 100% in the zero case basically what you're doing you're just running on the existing modules they're there anyone can leverage them you don't

need to like ask someone hey can I do that they're already running it you go ahead you do it there's no harm in that totally fine you know dozens of teams are doing that today on the other spectum you want to be 100% you know meaning you want to completely insulate your product from any trust in the third party well you can do that too maybe you want to be in the middle right benefiting from some of the existing ones and bolstering them with your own right still requiring your own sign off and you can do that too and I got a an example I think is a pretty great uh story for it so I picked here one of my favorite case studies of this design of that like in the-middle design uh that's in

production and that is Renzo specifically Renzo's easy and more recently p e use this in production right these are some of Renzo's most prominent assets with hundreds of millions uh deposited in them and they run a top hyperlane rails and because these are so consequential right like the size is large Renzo's security setup is such that they augment the existing modules with a Renzo specific module uh one that them and their operators are a part of so when you're like if you go on like Renzo super bridge. apppp or like reno.

hyperlane doxyz uh those are like front ends to move around uh Easy E and Fe that transfer is validated by uh the Renzo module or else it just cannot occur it cannot occur right and uh you know in the last 30 days alone about uh I say a little over a billion dollars was transferred through this setup and probably my favorite thing about it is that once the setup is there well like a lot of uh companies that their businesses this form of asset issuance well once the setup is there it can be reused for any other asset without any

additional work so take the case of Renzo they start with eth right like the igen layer asset later on they add P which uses uh a different network symbiotic well they could reuse the setup for it just by saying okay well like the modules are there just use those done just part of the initial configuration so all the moving parts are already there or everything's live and operating you just go ahead and use it and so to me the moral of the story is if you're someone who wants this you can use hyperlane to really easily achieve this and do it significantly more easily than if you were going to start from scratch like I can't tell you how many times in the last four months

we've run into teams that are like are you serious we just spent like six weeks of our top Engineers time trying to build like a rate limiting system a like extra monitoring system on top of like the bridging we have from provider XYZ and you're saying this is this was there and you get like a uh both slightly exacer like ah wish I know about the cylinder and a well at least I see the light in the end of the T because we spent the six weeks and I don't know when the that was going to end uh and now like we can basically get this done in a few days uh it's it's a pretty great thing

to to witness and so that's all that's already there right I mean there's obviously a whole lot more that's already there but like you know I've already taken up enough of these good people's time so we're going to get to um you know the stuff that's coming you know I would say saving the best for last really this is what's coming to the um open framework to radically improve the experience of using it so at a high level what's coming in the medium term to short term think you know over the next uh six six months handful of things and they're all very related first Economic Security right

like putting real money on the line behind these validator attestations right more interestingly this could be even used as a form of insurance right say you're like you know uh it's time to make that big transfer you got you got 100K you got to move it around and you're like scared to death you're like I heard bridging is is dangerous in this uh what's coming kind of world it's not just that the validators who are securing your transfer or putting money on the line that money can even be used to make up any ho that will be done as a result of like a failure on the part of a validator and this Economic Security can

come in the form of many assets right such like if you're the app builder you're the ecosystem you could leverage your own token for this purpose um the next thing is and this is what we're going to talk about before we finish up here is a security provider marketplace right so that the next renzone the next interupt zone right like the next super Lane will have a much easier time galvanizing the um that provisioning of security for their zone right like Gathering wrangling up those uh operators that I told you about when we were just started right whether it's an app whether it's an ecosystem doesn't matter just want to make it easier for them to tap into

something like this and of course all of this is going to be powered uh in part by reaking networks like igen layer right they play a material material part in doing this and how is this going to materialize in practice like how would you actually build a security Marketplace like this and of course it all starts with an available pool of capital to use to provide that Economic Security that's why I got this uh beautiful Fountain here thank you uh Miyazaki and thank you Google Gemini for the help I asked Google Gemini to generate a uh Miyazaki styled beautiful fountain in the middle of a town square and I'm sorry miak I know you don't like

AI but you know you're stuck in Japan nothing you can do about it um so we start with the AVS and the AVS acts as a shelling point a shelling point that draws operators and capital to it which you know metaphorically creates this Fountain so now you're the next person looking to create one of these uh interop zones whether it's for your app like in the Renzo style it's for your ecosystem like in the super Lane style you approach the fountain and you describe what you need it's kind of like a wishing well uh except a lot more practical and one that actually comes true every single time you come to the well come to the Fountain you say I need

$150 million to secure Communications between chains a b and c now in practice what is this going to look like it's going to look like a unified interface to express that that ask so imagine this being a command and something like the hyperlane CLI at first eventually like a distinct you know UI you enter the amounts you enter the assets that you want the chains the size of the set that you're looking to drop upon and of course right because you got to you got to throw a coin into the wishing wheel right doesn't do it for free you got to tell it what are you willing to offer for it so now as we said before there's a shelling point there so all the

operators who gather around that Fountain all of the ones who are part of that ABS they receive that request in a programmatic fashion think like getting a notification they get all the relevant info the size the chains the assets the type of the ask and of course what they'll get uh for doing that and then it's their choice to say do I want to fill this request right there's lots of operators I want to say it's over 80 might even be close to 100 uh that are uh related to the hyperline ABS today and so you know you need 80 of them to fill their no you're probably not going to get but can you get nine terrific you

get nine then once they fill it you need a wait to programmatically let the system know that they are live that they are operational that they are fulfilling the requests and so in hyperland parament today uh it's called like the validator announcing so you announce the system that you're there that system is then made aware of it those will be added to the ism and then the thing goes live request fill and now first this starts with economic security and validators but I think you can really see how this moves forward toward different forms of security that are instantiated that are made real as hyperlane security modules that then any Builder who is using hyperlane can easily use for their needs right like as

we get more of those like bulletproof ZK magic things well uh you can you know come to this uh security Marketplace and you can say hey this is what I'm willing to put on this side I can provide this service here who wants it then you come back the person comes back to the wishing you like I wish I would love to have CK magic and you throw the coin in and there you go and you're done and you know Robbie that's all I got for you today now I've already taken even longer than I was planning to oh this is phenomenal I your presentations are great sometimes you're you're rapping or we're we're asking

jcole other times we're we're going going through and wishing wishing for different forms of Economic Security from the the security Marketplace wishing well yeah you know always a pleasure it's always fun I like um someone was like oh do you wanna do you wanna go on and do this thing and like well if I have the time I damn of course I want to do this thing I like this is fun I have fun doing this so I'm certainly sorry you know like I'm sure you've had people who come on as part of this series who are much more um maybe formal maybe um you know more direct in their I like to have

fun that's what it's all about and uh I mean we we went all the way from a cozy and farming uh security module all the way up to a fully economically secured one with potential ZK magic so yeah we went we went all all the way here um we try Jay Cole you're the man thank you so much an absolute pleasure my friend anytime