What Happens Next in Crypto? with Fiskantes & Matti

Transcript

hey bankless Nation exciting topic for you today the next big crypto narrative where is it what is it have we lost the plot where is crypto going next that's what we're going to talk about today this is a Fireside conversation format with Maddie and Fisk these are two of my favorite investors in the D5 space uh working at an organization called Z Prime capital and uh we're all going to have it around a table conversation on what is next um David what uh are you excited about getting into in this episode yeah crypto runs on narratives right as we know and even when those narratives are very real and very based on fundamentals sometimes they are sometimes they aren't we still have narratives no matter what and I

think post merge everyone feels a little bit lost like we've run out of roadway like what is the next narrative because all we can really see right now is just a bunch of macro it was bad weather uh and that's not a narrative that's scary uh and so while we are like going through this bear Market together we're looking we're searching for what is the next big narrative and I actually did a layer zero with uh fiscantes forever ago that was on like the rotating narratives of the crypto space and so Maddie and Maddie and Fisk are just two of the best people to talk to about this kind of conversation as to where is where is the narrative because we need one without one we feel lost uh and so I'm excited

for all of this and you're muted run guys before we get into the episode um I want to tell you about our friends and sponsors at Galaxy because they're inviting you during this crypto bear Market to take an adventure with them into crypto and also get rewarded this is um almost like gamified crypto learning which I really love David I know both you and I are like big Gamers uh back in the day I don't have as much time for it because crypto has become my real life video games the game yeah because I can win like real coins rather than just like you know gold in World of Warcraft but anyway um what a galaxy is is an epic way they call it Learn to Earn to um level up on

crypto there are these things called campaigns which are like task based things that you do in crypto that different protocols and organizations sponsor and you could do these things and get rewarded I'm going to show a few screenshots of this David maybe you could say a few more things about Galaxy yeah galaxy it's basically a passport for you to collect a bunch of digital credentials that show that you did something in the metaverse and so there's a bunch of we use the frontier terminology here at bank list there's a bunch of uh things for you to do campaigns to go on the frontier and explore the metaverse and Galaxy gives you little credentials for having proven that you have done such things uh optimism quests of course is also one of

these things that you could go do so you go and you sign up for Galaxy you get your little web 3 passport you go on some campaign games you get some credentials and you prove to the world and yourself that you are a Pioneer and you can do that all with Galaxy there's a link in the show not to get started what I love about this is it takes you through all sorts of different chains too there's like 10 different change supported David so uh definitely a lot to explore and uh once again click the link in the show notes and you can start the Odyssey you can start um diving into what galaxy has to offer uh all right David one last question before we get into the episode with our guest today is what should people be looking for out of this episode yeah so we're of course

going to talk about the various new possible narratives that could come about and we should all be dubious as to when we propose narratives right because no one proposes The Narrative a narrative finds you it's like a hypothesis it's a hypothesis right and some narratives are going to resonate with you the individual The Listener more than others some might be your narratives the things that you really care about and others might not be so interesting to you like are you you a frontier ZK roll up low transaction feed D5 person that might be that might be an interesting narrative to you that's different from like the tokenization of Ip from the nft side of things so what narratives are possible narratives are on the horizon seem likely and also

resonate with you I think is something to consider yeah for me it's not just what resonates with me I want to know actually what resonates with the market because I want to plan my like investment decisions and so at some level like if it resonates with me that's okay but that's not necessarily the signal right and sometimes I can get diluted by that so I want to find out what the Z Prime folks think about this bear Market how we're going to tap into the next Market validated narrative and what the fundamentals are behind that so let's look for that as well guys we'll be right back talking about the next big crypto narrative but before we do we want to thank the sponsors that made this episode possible arbitrim 1 is pioneering the world of

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that these two put forth they have kind of independent ways of looking at things I can't really pin them down into a specific crypto tribe but I do know they are crypto Bulls uh to the Max and they've got great head on their shoulders when thinking about this space Maddie recently wrote a post called the next big crypto narrative I think we're going to draw a lot of inspiration from that post as we talk about what the next big crypto narrative might be Maddie viscantes welcome to bankless hello uh happy to be here how's it going guys and for the YouTube viewers out there we have uh two add-ons here so we have their profile pictures uh instead of their actual video cameras

and so Maddie is the ghost from Pac-Man and fiscantes is the uh what character is that fiscantes it's hisoka from Hunter x Hunter this Psychopathic Joker magician character but I added I mean not me but some artists on Twitter added a beard to it so I'm kind of making it my own and stealing this uh character in fearful well first can't he's in the top right Maddie is in the bottom left uh and so now now you know and that was his Canty's voice just now um all right let's kick this off for the first question maybe I'll throw it to you uh to you Maddie um because you wrote the post

um are we lost right now um I wouldn't say that we're necessarily lost I think that you know we're just hitting like a you know big reset um as opposing to the you know opposing to the uh beak ape or Peak imitation that we had and I think it it could feel like that but um I think it's time to you know we're now dismissing the old ideas and we're sort of acknowledging that imitation took place and we do our little Witch Hunt you know dough and the whole Terror thing Sue and Kyle and whatnot and um now we're heading into you know this peak idea this version or at least we should head there so some

novel Concepts should be tried and and because of that you know it may feel like we're lost but you know being lost because forking Olympus Dao and dumping on retail don't work it's you know it's not really being lost I think that all Concepts um you know have been banished now uh people don't think those will work um and now the ideas will not come from the masses from the chatter but uh from within the founders um and I think that only those really mean it will stick around and build Solutions the real problems so we we're looking for ideas I would say right now so we're not lost I think that um you know I probably felt the the bear Market uh creep in obviously after the you know

Terra Luna crash in fiasca and I was like okay we're entering this is something new right you know something's been burst here and then we had three hours Capital Etc right into the summer um but I think the maybe the um longevity of this potential bear Market probably hit me post ethereum merge because it did feel like throughout the summer at least we had this one Catalyst which was ethereum's going to merge and maybe something could even even though the the macro clouds in the sky are very very stormy like there is this bright spot of the ethereum merge and now that we've had that right I mean we have other things we have like the ZK evm coming out there are other developments and such but um like the theory emerge didn't really move the market at all and

that after merge where I saw prices still down like eth off 500 from what it was even like pre-merge that's when I feel like I fully capitulated into the length of time of this bear market and I'm wondering Maddie to you because I know you've been in crypto for a while um what does this feel like are there any analogs from the past is this like 2018 to you is this like 2019 is this a whole different thing that we've never uh felt before when have you last felt like this about crypto no to me it feels familiar I would say um if I would map it to a year and a

past it would be 2018 for sure and um yeah I I remember back then I mean it's funny I and I wrote about it is is you know the merge narrative and everything like we're trying we're begging the market to recognize the fundamentals where we were happy to ignore him all the way through through the bull um so to me to me and to us at Z Prime we're we're um yeah it's very familiar territory and I think that um we need to feel the pain a little everyone in the space kind of remind ourselves you know that we need to build more things and more useful things um and um yeah I guess it's a it's a

it's a good reminder but I don't think this is a new new territory for us I mean it's always new right like the more change the more the world changes the more it Remains the Same so I guess that um all the Cycles are in some way different in some way they are the same on the top and at the bottom as well so no I wouldn't I wouldn't say that um you know that this is the macro looks scary but you know there's always there are always things that um you know make you go sort of very pessimistic but um I I wouldn't say that this is something that these are uncharted waters this what's your take on all of this uh what does this feel like to you it's have you fully

capitulated that this is a a bear Market is this like 2018 have you or is this different I mean I wasn't fully present in crypto at that time but to me it feels a bit more like 2013 empty box uh crash because uh in 2018 I don't really remember anything uh that was like fundamental to uh the market structure break right we had like many icos popping up but nothing really broke like nothing big and important really broke and in 2013 empty box was the pillar that held uh Bitcoin together as a liquid and tradable asset and in

2022 like this year we uh had three arrows and all decentralized entities borrowing uh three arrows and uh maybe Luna partially as well kind of as this like um group of centralized entities that in a way held the market structure together in a sense in a very toxic unhealthy way but still um so like fundamentally it feels a bit more like this sort of crisis of confidence in the market structure a bit more um but the good thing about this is that uh like D5 held on uh well when it comes to like infrastructure um and how it works how it provides liquidity to the system and we kind of

we were able to move on from the this like pretty um huge volatile couple of events quite fast like of course there are still like things unfolding in many of the centralized entities but like it feels like we are just like building on and moving on much faster than we did in 2013 or even 2018 um like we have we speak to many Founders who are definitely not lost and have very clear Vision I mean many of them will probably be wrong about their Vision but they have it they don't feel like oh I don't know what to build now I just copy the uh the other guy I don't think this is the case so couple of these Founders will be right and they will find the new gold vein I would say

um yeah I think the biggest differentiator is the level of macro pessimism um yeah we didn't have that in 2013 we didn't have it in 2018 we have it now with like Twitter regularly talking about risks of nuclear war and [ __ ] like that so um I guess this is this is the new factor that kind of influences everything and when it comes to merge like that's kind of funny that it really worked out in the best possible way it could when it comes to the implementation or the text side but it's still dumped and I I don't know I kind of I don't feel so jaded about it because it was some sort of very Southern news event and I remember in Bear Market uh even in 2018 even good

news were basically bad news the only good news were no news in a bear Market because everyone tries to sell the news and dumped and there is on to the other guy because everybody has uh fear and they want to accumulate cash um so I would say like merge maybe as a narrative uh a narrative sort of catalyst kind of failed but as a fundamental Improvement that will have a huge impact on the price of it and maybe marketing in general it will succeed it will just need a bit more time the same way as like Bitcoin howlings usually don't really just cause a huge pump right after it happens but it kind of gradually gradually accumulates this momentum and

um the ready supply will kind of reflect in price over a longer period of time that would be my take so Fisk I I really like you like pulling from the past these two different bear Market eras and you know I think I maybe cleaned something as you were talking from what you're saying so you're saying this is a bit more like 2013 rather than 2018 right and so 2013 was really the cause the Catalyst of the of the bear cycle the reason was we had a major um crypto Bank blow up that was Mount gox blew up and you're kind of likening that I I would suppose to all of the things that went on with thrier's capital and Celsius and Terra Luna like stuff blew up in crypto in the same way

and so you think it's more like that now 2018 to me was a bit more um crisis of use case so we didn't have a central bank glow up but the whole we have one app and it's called the Ico we did there was really no notion of D5 at the time there was this this I think internal crisis of is crypto actually have any use cases besides Bitcoin you can hold it but like this whole smart contract thing seems like the only thing smart contracts are doing ethereum is doing is launching these worthless icos and so we had a whole crisis of use case there you're not seeing that crisis of use case right now are you like so I mean some people that are not as

in-depth and not crypto bullish are standing back looking at crypto from the outside looking at it and still saying that you guys aren't really producing any valuable real world apps this thing you call D5 is just a tiny sliver and Niche and by the way Regulators are probably going to shut that down and then uh nfts what was that cool JP you have jpegs like digital uh pictures of animals by the way they're down 99 are you sure that we're through the gauntlet of like having identified our actual use cases like do we have product Market fit this cycle or is this also still you know a 2018 style of Crisis where we actually don't have enough

useful real world apps um I'm not like 100 sure but I feel I don't know orders of magnitude more confident that crypto has uh many possible use cases and is here to stay than I felt in 2018 like in 2018 I was kind of jaded about it I felt like okay there is Bitcoin maybe Bitcoin already proved it makes some sense it's like this permissionless thing you can send to people and store value in it somehow and nobody can stop you from uh transacting with it and everything else is maybe just like a toy for gigs if anything um but right now I don't really feel like it I mean it's the depth of crypto Market it's like really yeah everyone is

Jaded on Twitter and uh on chain volumes are super low but at the same time we still see people I don't know trading on GMX and of course it's just a speculation but people are trading on GMX instead of centralized exchanges more and more um we see uh still some people trying to play some games or collect some nfts not because not only because speculation although granted it's 95 of the use case but also because they actually want to collect them and they want to either play this game or be part of this community of uh I don't know penguins and uh like you know share this sort of uh ownership type uh identity with with others I kind of feel that the use case

is there it's just uh didn't reach the level of adoption that would really validate it in front of uh biggest Skeptics but yeah I'm super optimistic about crypto's use case of course prices are a bit different thing like um vast majority of nfts are about zero so even though they are now down 99 they are still massively overvalued and yeah that's that will be true for almost anything but I don't know I don't have any doubt in my head that crypto now has many possible use cases with potentially validated product Market fit it just needs us adoption on scale I I think I agree with you Fisk and I want of people so a lot of people listening they

haven't been through those previous Cycles right this is kind of like their first you know bear market and I I want people to realize like if you weren't here in 2018 2018 really felt like we didn't have any apps like there was no Pro we had no product Market fit at the time there was no such thing as D5 at the time theory it was all a theory and this is so much different so in order to get kind of an accurate view of the crypto world I think probably you know at least based on this conversation kind of the most accurate model I can come up with is we've got some 2013 like a crypto Banks just blew up so we got some of that going on we've got a little bit of crisis of use case where we have to kind of go back and reset double down on

the things that are working but like let's discard kind of the you know the strange like Ponzi former D5 2.0 things that weren't really D5 2.0 and kind of reset the clock a little bit and then what's different about 2022 versus other uh crypto bear markets is we have macro macro is punching Us in the face repeatedly it was a little bit of this Us in 2018 but nowhere near what we see today that to me is is what our world looks like right now David you were going to ask something yeah and fisky you said something that I want to like latch onto and hang around for a little bit where throughout 2018 to 2020 like having a narrative wasn't actually like

a good thing because it turned into a cell the news event because people just could not get it into their psyche to be bullish uh and so for like a while now like you know ether would bounce between 100 and 300 Bitcoin would do the same and as soon as we got to 300 like it would just people were like okay we're out and selling and we go back down to 100 and anytime we found something kind of like new to latch onto it seemed to it seemed to do that and so I'm wondering and Maddie I want your thoughts on this too maybe perhaps for a while it's good that we don't have a narrative maybe we should be okay if it kind of feels like mindfulness meditation a little bit for the industry as a whole it's like hey let's all be okay with not having a narrative like

let's see what happens in a void and and spend some time here narrative lists while we do some soul searching that kind of seems like a healthier way for a bear Market to progress for all the market participants Maddie Maddie what do you think about this yeah I think that one thing that we have forgotten um uh is that uh you know the the Delta come Bubble Burst which I mean crypto wasn't around but um I think it's you know the crisis of use cases and the macro back life that was definitely there also the world world was on fire in 2001 after 9 11. so that could be also a a nice analogy and yes it took a while for um you know web2 to emerge

after after they'll come fresh so um I think that um we have you know many instances uh in the history that are now sort of we're trying to uh kind of project it onto the future or onto the current market and and I agree with the fact that uh we need some we need to pause and we need to as I said earlier we need people to come up with you know better ideas better applications better product Market fit and I definitely see a crisis of use case and and you know we said in 2018 there wasn't D5 well that that was maker right and it was under pressure at the end of 2018 when when it was crashing I think that there were some

huge liquidation back then it wasn't that much in terms of absolute numbers but it was like 10 of the die volume or something like that right so it's I think that everything is happening um at the same time right now whether it's 2013 2000 2000 or 2001 and also 2018 and um we need we definitely need to um to to take a break to um sort of consolidate our applications our our use cases and um we shouldn't yeah we definitely need some time we shouldn't rush it um and those expecting a quick turnaround I think it's just opium we need at least you know two years or

something to go back to the drawing board and improve on what we have already and then even the old Concepts will be power charged by that two years yeah I mean is that is that a number that you just kind of threw out there or is that is that like something that you kind of thought have thought about yeah that's how I feel uh I mean it's I mean you're starting from when um I don't know if this is if we just do it you know very um you know like uh one potato two potato method um if this is 2018 map it to the day to the month and uh we got we got two more years to go um and uh I you know I'm okay with three more years so um guys I just want to talk about it just really quick on the

years though okay so like two years are you also like are you sure that's not crypto hopium I mean I just it you just went back to like the the 2000 crash right and then we had 911 after that okay Amazon lost 95 of its value after the.com crashed 95 down and it took seven years until 2008 for it to reach all-time high yeah but that's normal Marcus crypto moves faster yeah I said at least two years so that's um yeah it's it's funny though there were also uh dependent on the on the macro

um but I also think that we um in crypto we're sort of even even words in terms of than than than traditional Finance people in terms of uh being being bearish and being sort of um just apocalyptic thinking and whatnot because we inherently don't trust the markets as in you know the traditional markets the central banks and whatnot and when we see this the things are not going that well we're immediately in overdrive saying oh this is going to hell like we're done um the system will collapse and uh so maybe maybe we should uh um we shouldn't be that pessimistic and we should think about better apps so the the one narrative that people

have latched on to is the Fed pivot which is an external narrative that's something that is outside of the control of the crypto industry it's not something we're innovating on it's not some sort of new crypto Frontier it's the macro and we are just hoping for the FED to Pivot and I think people are are kind of placing their bets as to like all right when the FED does pivot which which assets are going to like rocket out of that bear Market once the FED has formally pivoted but that's really the seemingly like large looming like Catalyst or Narrative of a catalyst that we we have and it it is the macro and so fisky I'll throw this one to you and Maddie I want your

thoughts on it too is like is it even possible to have a internally native crypto narrative while macro is so overwhelmingly loud like does is this is this Silence of the crypto narrative here until macro Smooths over and we stop being at War um I definitely think it's possible and I also think that we even today we have some crypto narratives but they are not narratives that move the prices the these are the narratives that kind of make us argue or agree on what crypto is about like currently I would say um one of the dominant narratives in

crypto is this uh ofac sanction list and censorship connected to it and it's a narrative that probably won't move the price uh directly in next couple of months but it can have huge impact uh on uh markets on how crypto works and potentially on prices too in general in like next two years or more as Matty said um so I think that we just deal with different types of narratives and narratives that make us care more but don't make us as rich as fast um that being said like it's funny with fat pivot and all of that how for the last 10 years mostly Bitcoin maximalists but also crypto enthusiasts in general

uh kind of we're betting on fed not doing any pivot or anything just like failing they were betting on fed failing they were betting on uh US dollar let's say losing its Global power and crypto kind of replacing that I mean it in retrospect this idea ideal feels a bit maybe like childish or naive at the same time I still kind of feel that there is a slight chance uh that in longer time Horizon maybe like one or two decades we will see dollar not re you know kind of being as strong as it is today uh like in uh in the global scene so that that's for me is probably

more interesting question the less interesting question is what fed will do in next one to three months or even a year because that's kind of predictable they will keep uh um curbing inflation until the economy is hurting too much and then there will switch that's like they will tell you the sky is blue and you look up and the sky is really blue and you still try to figure out if they are not lying it's uh [Laughter] um it's pretty obvious with date right what they try to do what they will um kind of try to influence but it's not obvious what else will happen that will have probably bigger impact on the market and one of the questions is like what will happen with uh geopolitical situation in in Asia and in Russia and

Ukraine um what will happen with US dollar in this world where many uh big countries are no longer so happy to to hold its reserves indoor you know this this kind of questions are probably much more impactful but their um certainty is much lower than what fed will do and of course when fed decides to stop curbing inflation and start sprinting more money we are going up and that's not really an interesting question to me or like topic of debate Maddie you have any thoughts on this what was the original question I got lost when his key was speaking does it does uh crypto do we even need to be bothered with producing our own narratives while macro is just so overwhelmingly in the driver's seat

well I think that um one potential narrative but it's a macro narrative is for the longest time we we have been talking about anchor related asset class and then after 2020 we're like yeah this is this is very much correlated and um you know if you if you decouple you will decouple in the downside I think like when the markets are going down um you know this is the time for crypto to shine it I mean this is not materialized but if we if we're if you're able to um to not fall further if um you know the uh the the markets fall down

um then we have something that we can grab onto and it's a it's a macro thing but I think that um from within when we need better ideas and we need better products um even though it's hard to admit right now because you know for us on the inside it's it's it's all you know Magic uh but I think that we need to uh sort of have a more impact on on normies like what sort of good did crypto do to to know to regular people outside of like giving them a four year for two months and then living in in them in debt you know it's we have to be more uh reflexive reflective about you know sort

of uh what we bring um to the world as a as an industry and um that's why we shouldn't even care whether macro is doing well or not because on one hand this should be the time you know when um when the times are rough you should come up with the greatest idea and then you know change it right we should we should come up with an idea that that will not make us care about macro at all um there's all this macro talk is kind of making me feel a bit worried that we lost our independence right there was this there was this meme circling around you know this uh this meme where the guy is talking to the monkey and it's like you're such a dumb animal yes and yes

and and there was one when the monkey was like you're waiting for the FED to tell you how much value your anti-establishment digital currency will lose right this is this is not that good and you know people are saying that they're not worried about crypto um that much compared to 2018 right because there's so much money in the space there's um so many developers and whatnot and actually that makes me worried more because back then we were under pressure to create now we're kind of complacent um so you still think we're complacent yes yes yeah I think we're complacent um maybe I'm just you know being too

hard and um on on the industry but yeah I do think that we need to um create sort of more than we do um and um you know I I feel that it's getting better now than than you know a couple months ago because people are suddenly having new ideas because the old ones don't work um but yeah um even though it's funny because when I when I speak to uh people from traditional finance that um are now say invested in crypto or have been following crypto they're like yeah crypto State 2018 they were like crypto's gone like this is not doing anything now they're they're optimistic about crypto

you even hear guys like uh like druck right like Stanley Dragon they're talking about this um well I'm more concerned you're more concerned than Stan Lee drucken Miller is about crypto's longevity um not necessarily longevity because we have like the high level use cases but maybe those um really functional applications that um that that free that we're talking about like um that is something that uh sort of I I need to see more from people I want to see more creativity on the founders side I want to see totally new application because I remember 2017 2018 even 2017 like people were even though you know

those ideas were crazy because we didn't even have a tech to kind of support that um but these days it was you know kind of you know very much sort of um I would say self-referential token feedback loops that kind of make you feel like you know this is value being created but was it you know I think you brought to lay another thing in my mind Matt is you're talking about that's a differentiator from 2018 and this is interesting because I'd not thought about it in this way before but in 2018 I think Builders particularly D5 Builders were hungry a lot hungrier maybe than they they are now like the depths of of that bear Market was just like you know Hayden Adams and uniswap couldn't fund a team

you got a grant for like eighty thousand hundred ten thousand it was ten thousand at first from the ethereum foundation right it was just him hacking away hungry to prove out an idea I um I still think the uh the private markets like the VC money is definitely flowing into early stage projects and you're right I don't actually I've never thought about this but I don't actually see quite the quite the hunger um let me ask you one other thing before we uh we do want to get to the the bright spots here and what the future narratives might be and I know you've got a lot of thoughts on that the two of you do um but but one question I had for you is just a particular asset which is the token call it the defy token

um that has gone from trough of disillusionment to like peaks of euphoria hasn't it um I remember in 2018 tokens are dead they're all futility tokens nobody buy a token well it turned out that was probably among the best times in uh crypto history to ever buy a particular set of tokens synthetics link came out of that world um with massive highs once again it it feels like people are fading tokens and I I see the reasons right um bad governance it's killing tokens there's no value accrual mechanisms I even think regulatory has a massive effect on this uh SEC regulatory threats now we've seen

in the US anyway the cftc coming after Dow token holders in a particular way um are tokens dead what do you think about that first I'll throw it back to Maddie and then maybe Fisk yeah I I don't I actually was um after 2018 I was I called it token minimalist um I changed my mind after after seeing synthetics I think that was a big breakthrough for for me personally and for us as a um investment firm too um so I don't think tokens are dead I think that um we went through an iteration cycle on tokens now we have

um much more information about you know what is what is a good token or what might a good token look like and um I think that uh in the next couple of months years will come with better models because you know it has been mostly a user acquisition tool these days and it's time to change it to to bacon um more of the value accrual perhaps and and all of that so I I think that it's uh it's going to get better The Tokens The Token models will will only get better and as the next iteration cycle ahead of us so tokens I think will will stay here for uh yeah it's a new asset

class Fisk what's your take on tokens we can have a round two um yeah like bearish current model of governance tokens um that being said most of the arguments you hear about them is that they are basically just placeholders for future sort of token value capture and kind of uh deflection of of responsibility from deaths to to users to be able to say that the project is decentralized in phase of regulators um which I mean I'm not sure I'm not a legal expert I would also say that the five Founders in general are much more jaded not only because of regular regulatory uh backlash uh against D5 but

also because the actual best stuff that happened in last couple of years like before that when Haydn was building uniswab it was just this like cool thing everybody can use to provide liquidity now D5 is like this thing this like Minefield where if you build your thing with some bug or uh something that some like vulnerability someone will exploit it and your users can potentially use um millions of dollars and people kind of didn't know about it back then or didn't care because it didn't happen but now it happens regularly and I would say that that's why defy Founders are not as bold as they used to uh or it's one of the reasons I mean mean the the big Visions are definitely moving out of D5

into some different verticals which we can talk about later um but yeah tokens are definitely not that they will just yeah they will evolve it's like an evolution um insect is not insects are not that they just like evolve into different types of uh bugs and flies and stuff that is better uh suitable to adapts in new environments um yeah and they will always be um and tokens are representation of anything fungible non-fungible social hardcore economically backed by any cash flow or whatever we might ascribe them to or some like Assets in reserve or I don't know what else so

tokens are here to stay they will evolve and there will be probably a couple of models that will have 90 of the use cases and then there will be long tail of weird use cases but yeah definitely I think I'm more bullish on tokens than ever um just because we see multiple successful models um and yeah I I'm actually most bullish on those that are not afraid to kind of break some laws in a way because these are the ones that kind of carry the space forward if you need to design your token around some particular regulation I think you are just like doing your community and your project in a huge disservice because then you are optimizing for the wrong

things and yeah I know it's hard for me to say and know the founders don't want to end up in jail but at the same time Innovation kind of needs to move faster than regulation at all times otherwise we are dead I really like that metaphor of tokens are insects because there's in that whole like uh part of the animal kingdom does mutate really really fast and that's what we saw coming out of 2017 into the bear Market of 2020 is that some tokens mutated and then they pumped like a thousand X like snx link lend turned into Ave uh and so physical I really like that that mental model to latch on to maybe maybe I'll ask you a few of

these uh potential tokens that you see doing uh doing some good mutations in the bear Market but also Maddie in your blog post you just taught you threw out some candidate narratives out there that we might be able to latch on to defy 2.0 web3 Commerce web3 social decentralized science I also want to ask you guys about where Bitcoin narratives land uh what is bitcoin's biggest like narrative where where is it in the world of latching on to like a purpose so I want to get to all these conversations and more right after we talked to some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible in all of my years in crypto I have never been hacked scammed or lost money to a thief and a lot of that credit goes to my ledger Hardware wallet the love your Nano X and The Ledger Nano S Plus Hardware wallets

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you can be a part of a cross's story by joining their Discord and using a cross for all of your layer 2 transferring needs so go to across.to to quickly and securely Bridge your assets between ethereum optimism polygon arbitrum or Boba Networks alright Bank destination we are back with Maddie and Fisk talking about doing a little soul searching for where we need to be in the crypto World perhaps over the next six months 18 months three years and I want to start this second half of this conversation with Bitcoin narratives The bitcoiner Narrative out there for what what is Bitcoin in this like wartime macro bearish economy because I think everyone realized as soon as uh like it was November I think in the FED kind of

signaled that it was going to start getting pretty aggressive with interest rates and all the crypto markets just went super South people lost the Bitcoin is an inflation hedge narrative and it doesn't really have it hasn't really picked up anything in its place so how do you guys think about Bitcoin in this current phase of the world and what its narratives is and and what its role is to play in the world has it has it lost its way like the rest of the crypto industry you know Fisk I'll throw this one to you um yeah um Bitcoin is an inflation hedge is very interesting topic to me because I kind of feel that uh Bitcoin was a good inflation hedge but it's from trendy inflation and I think in this

regard um like Bitcoin maximalist uh at least this Bitcoin maximizes that are more like uh Austrian economics uh educated they were talking about uh like how uh like this monetary policy of fed and the world we um we live in uh when it comes to you know using depth as main road vehicle uh how like this can blow up and Bitcoin was growing throughout this the whole period of this uh this criticism uh going on and I feel that it was a good inflation hedge just from trendy inflation it was better inflation hedge than than stocks that also went up but

if you held Bitcoin you would be now like if you bought Bitcoin when this critic started to point out that this um sort of monetary behavior is unsustainable you would now be like hedged for life right if you both like in substantial amount so it just depends how you look at it but I would say that it's not exposed Edge against inflation it's like you know front running Edge or it used to be I'm not sure what will happen now another device I kind of feel that the big guys are like full on um full on like Full Steam on bitcoin Duke and Miller Ray dalio even who was a huge crypto skeptic he's mentioning Bitcoin as an alternative uh to like uh Fiat currencies in some of the podcasts

it does and these guys I have like years of most of traditional Finance world so I would say that narrative wise these like old powerful smart dudes uh will kind of lead the crowd to discover Bitcoin and Bitcoin is still the biggest crypto brand right like when you ask random Normie about crypto they will tell you about Bitcoin about how much energy it burns and maybe they know about this other thing called uh at the room or something but yeah most of them will still like mostly talk about it can ask about Bitcoin even to this day so I don't see Bitcoin going away narrative wise well what if we still make an argument a little bit though Fisk rather than saying inflation hedge because I think that distracts people's like the basement hedge okay because CPI inflation in inflation is

kind of different it's like a lot of factors will drive that but like debasement that is the Bitcoin you know bull thesis is if a uh country and the Fiat systems are printing money that is the supply of their base money is going up Bitcoin will hedge over the long run not over the short to medium term but over the long run against that dis debasement do you still think that that thesis holds um I'm not sure because I don't know how much how big this debasement can be and how much growth Bitcoin has um again these big guys like Drew candelio think about Bitcoin as uh sort of a competitor to gold in this regard

and they are saying that maybe the reasonable market cap of Bitcoin is some percentage of market cap of gold something like 10 20 30 and I would say I I haven't done the numbers but I would say Bitcoin is kind of close to that already so I'm not sure how much upside is left from this regard um I don't know like I I feel that Bitcoin is saturated in terms of being this um investment or like speculation that can give you like 100 or nothing as it used to be the case couple of years ago and now it's more it behaves more like a major Tech stock um so that's it's kind of weird uh space Bitcoin is in right now but I I think like narrative wise it can have multiple

narratives going on for it in this world where maybe some countries even trust uh um Banks or some other governments or the Fiat currencies less than they used to um I just don't have enough insight into this world of uh Global geopolitics when it comes to like settlement of currencies to be able to give you any coherent thesis about Bitcoin becoming some sort of um pseudo settlement layer for some International commodity trade or something like that but I can see that happening um not a device I just think that Bitcoin is a great toy for trout fee because you cannot really do that much with it in a non-custodial way so all these custody providers will push Bitcoin and they are the ones that

spin the narratives in front of their clients and I can see that happening and kind of carrying Bitcoin a bit forward but I don't think it's as interesting as it used to be from like this capability of creating new narratives maybe I'm wrong and I will be happily wrong but maybe my imagination is not as great as it used to be or maybe I'm just focusing on other things but I just don't see any super new exciting narrative around Bitcoin happening apart from what traditional Finance pushes and stratify is generally very unimaginative so there is that Maddie do you have any thoughts to add on to what fisky was saying about Bitcoin narratives I would just say that uh Bitcoin at its

core is a sort of defensive ideology and a technology that um I mean I would say the narrative is about like way back in the 70s we screwed up and we have to go back and and change all of it so so it's just very Relentless in nature uh whereas the rest of crypto or especially you know um eat and defy and and and and and other ecosystems are much more optimistic and they're they're not as defensive they're thinking about the future whereas Bitcoin is kind of thinking about the past and uh what went wrong so in that respect like these these two are not the same right they're very much correlated

in price but they're not the same and uh Bitcoin all it can do is search for a macro narrative so it's a very macro reactionary whereas we should be more independent in the rest of crypto looking looking to the Future um and um Bitcoin sort of it feels like it it cannot do that I mean probably you know liquidity because liquidity so it would still be a thing it's potential um I think Ryan called it the basement hatch I think that can still be valid but uh I don't think there's too much to talk about we just have to wait what uh what the market will do and uh what they will come up with in terms of their um narrative Market fit so Maddie in your blog post you put out

a bunch of candidate narratives that I think we want to to run through but before we do that I want to lead into that part of this conversation with uh a theory that I want to run by you guys uh this is my like surface area theory for bull markets and if we go back in time back to you know when maker Dow was being built first there was maker we had dive it was a decentralized stable coin that was like something you know cool that we could point to then later came compound later came uniswap Ave got really big dydx came out uh like there was a bunch of just like things that started to happen during 2018 to 2020 and it was like it's like laying Tinder it's like the the

force was growing there's brush burning up and just like Tinder was being laid all over the place and even during this time I remember being in the ethereum space trying to shout out to the rest of crypto not even the outside world but to the rest of crypto saying hey why aren't you guys paying attention to this defy thing more like even the crypto industry itself hadn't really like latched on to it but we had all of these applications that had like so much surface area uniswap was surface area for trading token and maker Dow put out the decentralized stable coin which ended up being like a very commonly used asset inside of defy summer like there was a surface area surface area the application layer of ethereum where this bull market hadn't really happened yet

because it was just icos uh had just a bunch of surface area and so that's kind of like my model for how this next bull market however it comes out will look is that there will be a bunch of Tinder being laid over the next one to three years and it's going to look like a bunch of surface area and this is why I'm particularly bullish on something like zkevms with like ultra low transaction fees opening up new brand new use cases that we haven't seen but it's gonna It's gotta be in the app layer right because bull markets always start in the app layer uh because that's what we saw at defy summer was D5 summer was an app layer bull market then they alt layer one like competition Avalanche Solana tried to and also after the nft

also an app layer bull market in ethereum then like all of these all layer ones Solana Avalanche like a phantom had these protocol bull markets but first first app layer and so I'm wondering if you got if you accept that as like a model like first we have like all this Tinder being laid in an app layer something happens some Catalyst happens it was covid that was the Catalyst for the last bull market a bunch of money printing sadly sadly a macro thing but that Lit the match and then like oh we had D5 summer and then that triggered the nft boom and that was all on the app layer uh and so as we go forward the and the the idea to take away from this is as we go forward into 2023 2024 there's a bunch of new app layers out there there's a bunch of like

layer twos that are supporting all these low cheap easy transactions and I'm hoping that the way that this plays out is like a bunch of just surface area gets built all over the place and then one day there's a catalyst and it ignites a bull market and that's and then We're Off to the Races once again that's kind of my model for how these things forward and Maddie in your article with all these candidate narratives I'm seeing a bunch of just like surface area that could potentially ignite into a bull market but before we get into the specific uh candidate narratives I wonder if how you resonate with that kind of idea of this is how this bear to bull market is going to go Maddie what do you think about that so what you're saying is that we're going to build a bunch of the stuff

um which you know will be useful but will not get that much attention but once that there's a liquidity a magic magic touch of liquidity in the markets that we're gonna ignite it and uh it's gonna be on fire that's what you're saying right yeah I think that totally makes sense uh even you know like the fundamentals don't get recognized by the way they need some reflexive action and uh for that we need um sort of better I don't want to say macro environment but definitely we need we need people not to be scared to invest in stuff and buy stuff if you guys got any thoughts on this before we go into the actual specific candidate narratives um yeah I mean I would say that the next

uh Bull Run should be more about uh app player like capturing end users I mean infrastructure is always moving forward and it's always being uh improved and yeah we will have many um tools and many layers that will enable new use cases but for me now it starts to be much more about the apps and the things that people will interact with the need to materially improve their lives day to day so Maddie the first candidate narrative that you put in your blog post was actual defy 2.0 uh why is this the candidate narrative and what is what is actual D5 2.0 well it's actually something new right

um meaning that it's uh it's the next level because I think D5 uh D5 1.0 is is mostly this um so self-referential token feedback loop right um yield and whatnot and I think that um what uh what 2.0 could be um it could take it closer to potentially production economy um it could uh we could find a way how to create more sustainable yields we can we can think about it although this is a bit tricky and maybe not a good time to think about this but the ancolator is lending um or you know under collateralized lending um I think that we're ready for uh for um

something that Olympus Dao has been trying to do and that's uh sort of Fiat independent um Reserve currency I don't think they're that there yet but there might be other people and other projects building this so yeah I guess that um we need we need more than just tokens to pump to say that this is this is a new era so much more um much more utility for uh for regular people not only crypto heads um and uh D5 has been rather um you know just inward looking and we can think about how to make it more accessible to uh to the real economy the

way I go back to kind of Defy is like if we're really going to eat Finance then we have to eat Finance right and the way we've uh long for a long time captured this on Bank list is kind of through different money verbs like things people want to do with their money and so right now I feel like D5 has um we have the ability to send it now you can send it in stablecoin format Okay cool so we've got send as a money verb and pay there's lots of progress we can make on pay and then we've also done some borrowing and lending but that's only been like collateralized borrowing and lending and most of the real world borrowing and lending that you do say on a credit card like if you're a consumer it's all

credit based so what you're talking about is uncoateralized lending it's like bringing Credit Systems to D5 we we haven't even tapped into that and then the other thing I guess we do in D5 fairly well is like trading and we scratch the surface and maybe some you know derivatives and that sort of thing but like I think what you're saying with D5 2.0 is it's not going to be a different like more gamified ponzied um sort of scheme to make token number go up it's not going to be liquidity farming the new D5 2.0 is actually going to be building thing things that eat traditional finance that real world people want to go do is that what you're saying am I onto something there

yeah I think that is that is put on I would maybe add that we have built tools for finance but we need also tools for Commerce and and that could be a powerful link where if you can if you have actual Commerce going on on chain uh that gives you much more space to create new Financial products that are not just you know that could be um related to some cash flows and those type of things well let's talk about web 3 Commerce because that was another uh possible future narrative you mentioned um getting people to spend money inside of the blockchain seems to be maybe a crucial element I know we've long talked about the use case of being able to buy Starbucks with your Bitcoin right it's

probably not going to come in that form but I think you've mentioned a couple of other forms it might take GameFly being one Commerce in GameFly maybe tokenized IP as well can you talk a bit more about this Commerce use case and so it's very vague I would say at this point um I I do believe that uh gamify offers um a low hanging fruit in that respect so purchasing endgame items um I actually uh we were discussing this maybe 2019 with the team that we can imagine that you have games built for actual items that you purchase so um you can take it you can take an item

that that you've bought in game throughout different games um so that it it's given more powers and and I think that that's something that people would spend money on I mean obviously it's just uh entertainment and the questions we want to just entertain ourselves to to death um but I would definitely um want to see um some um potentially a a link to roll of atoms and commerce that you know sort of I don't know how the free Commerce could facilitate Commerce better than the existing one but um maybe I'll I'll leave this to fisky because his bullish on the metaverse thing and that is Commerce for sure involved in that one so uh maybe

maybe he is an idea um so I mean we tapped into multiple things at the same time I would I would kind of separate them into like payments it's funny to me that payments was probably the first use case everyone thought will be massive in crypto and it never really happened I mean we can pay for stuff and we can send money to our friends or even to some vendors but it's it's not something that's like big at this point even 10 years in um and we have stable coins we have blockchains with low fees and we have all that and we still are not regularly paying with with crypto or with using

blockchain as an underlying infrastructure at least we are not really doing that and I really wonder why like it feels that a traditional fintech and banking rails have a huge mold in people's heads in uh like about how we pay and how we use like cards and and payments which are maybe reversible maybe maybe thinking about crypto payments should be thinking in which cases we benefit from having irreversible payments and if we don't benefit from having irreversible payments within Commerce commercial context um can we build layers application specific chains or tools to make payments under some um some conditions

reversible that's maybe one question maybe other questions as is the last mile adoption like our payments today really something that means Improvement when we have cars we have Apple pay we have all this um what does crypto bring to make make them 10 times better for people to adopt it I think there are ways that crypto makes payments better but I'm not sure how much better and when it comes to metaverse I just need I just think that we need like a regular economy which is based around digital assets and which is largely non-speculative meaning that there are many people who want to build no not build we want to buy and hold these like metaverse assets nfts digital

items not Prospect we additional purposes but because they really want to hold them they want to collect them they want to use them they want to flex with them and uh when this economy is created uh I think many of generations the and younger Generations will kind of be naturally inclined to start using crypto more and more as a financial too rather than just purely speculative too and then it can spill out into other areas connected to physical world which will cater mostly to these young Generations but over decades you know young Generations are becoming older Generations or they enter productive age and I think this is how we get the adoption not necessarily pushing

um this mainstream real world crypto use cases on on Boomers but kind of building the world for the future generations and kind of making peace with the fact that my dad will probably never need crypto to pay for anything maybe see one thing that we definitely are know that is happening is that Brands big brands are leaning into nfts and tokenizing IP very strongly we saw a job report job listing for a Disney for Disney to basically more or less pivot the whole entire company into being like

token nft enabled or whatever that means but they they have this job listing out there that's asking like hey for this is relevant to like Disney Parks Disney like media Disney movies digital Disney IP we need an nft person to guide the company into like this world and that's Disney and like the Adidas is already doing this and so I'm wondering one of the uh the candidate narratives uh that you put in there Maddie was a tokenized IP and and also fisky I think you were talking about how like so much of crypto has been like internally facing like hey let's build crypto products for the crypto degens which is like fun for us on the inside but it doesn't reach out to the outside I'm wondering if if you

guys think that it's possible that we actually like the next phase of crypto development doesn't actually come from the inside and that's actually how we actually onboard a bunch of people is that we actually don't have crypto natives building crypto native products we actually have normal companies normal Brands doing stuff in crypto but building it for their use users their fans their their their foundations and that seems to be a much more reasonable way to onboard much more people rather than like hey like uh go put ether into maker Dao and borrow die instead it's just like oh buy this like SpongeBob nft uh and the on-ramps there seem to be much stronger so I'm wondering how

strong you think that this potential um narrative if you will but also just like fundamental driver of crypto use cases might actually play out into the future Maddie what do you think about this so I think it's a powerful way to onboard new users but they will not come up with new stuff right they will only adopt the ways and the models that we will lay out for them so it's very important um and uh we have you know sort of we came up with a bunch of good ideas um that mostly lifestyle brands are using um these days but I think this cycle will bring will potentially bring new ones that you know more Brands and more companies will be

able to adapt and and onboard new users into crypto without them necessarily coming into crypto right they will never be crypto heads or crypto broadsword they will just be users of applications that are of value to them and that is a that is one way of putting it and um I think that it's it's good that we have this wave of adoption that's for sure I think that's such a good point Maddie that um the established Brands aren't really going to innovate though here they're just going to sort of copy the things that the builders on the frontier in crypto are actually doing and so they're going to notice oh that crypto punks thing is successful board Apes really

interesting now how can we emulate that for our brand so they're they're actually not going to be like building kind of the new things they're going to look to us the crypto industry to really lead the way uh one last use case maybe to touch on is um web3 social what do you think about this Maddie like What's Happening Here we see like things like lens for example that uh are forging new directions we also see Meta Facebook um integrating nfts into their platform what is web 3 social do you think that this is a powerful narrative that could rise in the 2022 bear Market uh I think it's a very interesting uh idea or or

um a narrative because everyone agrees or everyone well there's a consensus out there that uh that we need a next generation of social media or we need to improve on the existing ones um and um I think that it's um uh when Asics and Z when they talk about um that pre they talk about like uh read write and oh and I think that in social media it's more like separation of read and write because we have created this this powerful platforms that probably will be will be either broken down by Regulators or by in the waste Innovation and usually it's Innovation that kind of gets them and even though you know meta

is doing something I don't really care or Twitter is doing something I don't necessarily care that much um so I think that you know today you come to Twitter or substack and you publish that right they own your graph your distribution um and users can read on the platform and you can only write a publish on that third platform and what I think could happen is that you will be able to write your ideas or produce your content on various platforms that will be competing to provide the best production experience and then there will be other platforms that will compete to provide the best distribution so you write an essay uh you want to make it an nft so be it you make this essay into nft and then

um you know this tool will enable you to to write it is is you know it's a tool but you're able to sort of make it this this NFP thing and perhaps there will be other that will have you know better better experience better graphics additional things and once you export it um on this writing platform you will be able to attach different identifiers to it you create an online identity for that for this piece and it can have you know various attestations and um uh so the identity of the of the piece and the author can be defined by this attestation and this could be anything like from I'm followed by Vitality on Twitter too it can even say I am mati on Twitter

um but there might be other sort of playful ones and more sophisticated like I'm a first 100 user on on lens or something like that right um and then you have these read platforms that will compete to distribute this this nft Essay with these other stations and these read platforms are basically different relevance algorithms that readers that that research readers use to sort of search for the most relevant content to them and uh you know read platforms the right platforms they will get a cut from whatever you know uh the monetization you choose or you know from the traffic that you get um and and this way you as a Content producer are a client of these various platforms and you're not a you know sort of a slave to to one or you're you're

not at the mercy of one um and of course there will be different platforms focusing on different readers um Left Right Bitcoin Eve Maxi whatever uh the point is that no one owns an exclusivity to distribute and and you know no one is Banning speech or anything like that so um I guess that is something that that I Envision the question is how how economic it'll get what's what are the incentives what are the monetization methods but to me it's um definitely a separation of of read and write and indexing this um this contact through new novel protocols that's fascinating the the separation of read and write you didn't

even mention the the own verb there which is kind of the token verb there and that's a re-emphasis because I think you know others that have approached web3 social have led with kind of token first and maybe that's not the way to do it I I mean we've talked about a few interesting possible narratives of the future and when we say narratives we don't want people to get distracted by that term because I think what we're talking about is um fundamentals that become a story price driving narratives into the Futures But first you have to look at the fundamentals I know that's what you guys do at Z Pi Z5 Prime um maybe maybe I should uh kind of leave this as we start to close out with some of the you know the final words in your post there Maddie which is uh I think

maybe the most exciting part you write this there may be other narratives that will carry us into the future as many Founders are working on that many Founders are think working on that can't think of does not mean that if things failed in the past they can't work in the future it when we actually get surprised by the imagination of builders in the meantime let's not get overly pessimistic I love that line it's best when we actually get surprised by the imagination of Builders we are probably not anticipating the future use cases that will spur on the 2024-2025 a crypto bull market are we I think we will get surprised as we have

as crypto investors crypto Journeys in this space again and again parting advice fiscantes could you give us your best advice for someone who's listening this episode and they're they want to stick around they're settler in crypto they're not leaving um what's your best advice for someone looking for the next new thing to bet on how can they find the right bets in the sort of environment fiscantes what would you say I would say first of all Walk Off from Twitter it becomes a huge Echo chamber especially during bear Market when there

are less people and the ones that are there are very jaded and salty most of the time but it's like I don't remember last time I I read really new and like let's say non-mainstream idea on Twitter so yeah logging of Twitter definitely helps um and yeah then just I don't know like for Builders I guess it's just like trying to solve interesting problems that may that people may have around them even um and for people who just want to like like bet or invest I guess that's much harder right now because when you just go scroll through coenger code all the

ideas you see there there are all the projects that are either successful or not but you don't really see any inspiration for something groundbreakingly new so I just guess I don't know like read stuff read weird stuff that's maybe not even directly about crypto but about technology in general um for example and I'm not saying this is something that will bring us any new groundbreaking narrative but uh one way to look at crypto gaming or investments into crypto native gaming which is like one of possible narratives that can carry us is to not go to crypto conferences but go to gaming conferences and talk to game designers and um Gamers there um so maybe doing something like that

stepping out of the crypto bubble and looking around what's happening in the world not I'm not now saying anything about like bearish macro but looking around in different Trends in different uh other Tech or innovation verticals um yeah if there is any I mean everyone should have some sort of passion that is not directly connected to crypto or trading and I don't know if the passion is uh health and biotechnologies or something rather than definitely that's one way to start looking or this this can be the lenses for you to start looking at crypto it like how could I use this weird set of tools that crypto is right now to improve something from these other areas what could be

interesting in that regard um and then I would say like dials are interesting in general not in a way that you know you can invest in them easily or in their infrastructure but starting a Dao should be super easy I think the most Innovation Innovative way for non-crypto people to get into crypto is to just like form some sort of Dow around anything interesting essentially making a Discord group with some money under its management that can like Finance stuff or play with it um so like joining any sort of interesting Dao and be collaborative there I think is advice I give all the time because I feel it's Timeless and I'm not saying that this is something

that will make you lot of money easily or maybe you will be even you will become objected because the dial will not be as functional as you imagine because it's to the centralized there is no leadership but at least you know how the sausage is made and then you can have better idea of about uh you know uh what will be the next thing because you see what failed and how it felt so I guess this but it's hard I would say that anything that influences like us even talk about uh may not necessarily be the big thing and the big things are almost always something that people don't really expect that easily but let's see log off Twitter start a dow stop listening to all the Bears cross pollinate get out of the

crypto bubble that's fiscanti's advice Maddie same question to you how do people survive the bear market and come out stronger and how do they find the next big thing during these times I think the most natural thing is don't try uh just don't push it I would say follow your curiosity not not the money Trail do not let the money Trail determine your opinion on things um sometimes it's you know it's actually those things that are not under the lightest Spotlight that are the most interesting ones or the the Breakthrough and I think that it's important to to to to to realize that um I think Chris Dixon he he wrote this uh a long time

ago he said that the what the smartest people do on the weekend is what everyone else will do during the week in 10 years and because you're not a builder doesn't mean that you cannot become a builder everyone can become a builder and um I think that if you see something that should be built just build it and don't focus on resources but focus on the creativity and um yeah I guess that's my advice Blended their fantastic advice and I will say everyone who I know who's been early on anything certainly been early on crypto got there as a result of following their curiosity this innate interest for the subject matter and I think that's the best way to find the

next big thing as it has always been Maddie fiscantes thank you so much for joining us I think we have some more clarity on the next big crypto narrative what that might look like uh into the future we appreciate you guys thank you for having us thank you guys action items for you bankless Nation we will include a link to the next big crypto narrative that is fiscanti's post uh excuse me Maddie's post and it's a an excellent on his sub stack it's called wrong a lot so it's okay to be wrong a lot as well uh but I don't think he's wrong on this one a lot to be optimistic about for the future of crypto of course risks and disclaimers guys my time to

tell you eth is risky so is Bitcoin so is D5 you could definitely lose what you put in but we are headed west this is the frontier it's not for everyone but we're glad you're with us on the bankless journey stay curious