What does it mean to be Ethereum Aligned

Transcript

What I want to do in this uh very very quickly very very quick um talk is to talk about what means be a tum allian but not in about okay like you need to be open source stuff no about to understanding why uh these value are important like for the space uh for the future and for everything and understanding like why crypto exist since so let's start by this because now like you know like a a lot of people now are basically Dentians doing stuff but uh and also we have things that are like differently decentralized and stuff and I think it's it's kind of cool to coming back to understand like why the industry exist

because um why crypto exist where we started we can say that something we started was digash in 82 where was this idea about you know like having uh digital payments with signatures that are outside from banks. And why we don't talk about digash anymore is because it was just shut down because all of the transaction and the existence of digash was in a server of a company and so it was just shut down by governments.

Then we have like the idea of triple entry bookkeeping which is this kind of idea that instead of having like okay bank A and bank B who track like in and out and uh and we hope in some way to have an agreement between the two we have just a a big bookkeeping who simultaneously take in and out and that's like the triple enter account and then we have for example Napster why you're talking about Napster in a crypto event because uh what solves the idea of double spending and things. It was actually the technology of of Napster because the hashing is when uh for example on Napster you put a file and this file can be shared and downloaded

by other people. This means that you have like hashing this file and you have like a unique ID and so people can share this file. uh actually it's a very cool technology but it doesn't solve the problem that you can add a file which is like for example Harry Potter and then is a porn because you don't verify the creation of the file you just verify that it's the same file that people share and here is when there was like the proof of work so the the invention uh of Satoshi Nakamoto which was this idea of having um of creating like the incentives to actually um about reward to the right incentives to actually like creating the right data that then you

share between uh different validators and stuff. If you want I can go deep about these things but it's pretty much like common knowledge in crypto and all of this thing together they created Michael Sailor. No, I'm joking. [laughter] They created Bitcoin which I prefer to call it the orange coin. So basically it's a triple entry book uh uh is a triple entry bookkeeping with cryptographic signatures like digash uh distributed block verification so verification of the shared stuff like Napster and economic incentives that prevent double spending and make the Ethereum resistant from shutdown censorship and so on so forth.

So we what in the industry is important is that we always need to remember that crypto is here not because it was legal but because it was legit because it was very difficult to shut down. It just works and this is where all of the value came from. This this is why like our token value and uh which which is like what is the end like the why like decentralization and what is bring from on the table. It's like fall tolerance uh because if one part fails, everyone else keep working.

Attack resistance. So uh the expense of an attack is bigger than actually what you can get to just act in a good way. And collusion resistance. So this means that you prevent insiders to benefit at the cost of all the others. So this is like what's bring the centralization into the table and uh yeah now we are like gaslighted by the classic idea about oh no one cares about digitalization which is true for these kind of people but it's not true for this kind of people that for sure it's important because having a centralized point of failure is bring hackers uh legal uncertainty we all know and these people

have armies so So we should really care about this and then what's happened? And what's up the idea of smart contract which is very easy just have a virtual machine that is able to run scripts fully on chain and this is what's create like the idea of the worldwide computer I'm just trying to be fast and not like going into the and so we have tokens Dows and so on and so forth and uh so we have dabs okay which also here we can say uh we have some dabs that are more aligned is what I I like to call like the web tree and some of it was like yeah web 2.1 which we can divide in for example like you have a you have persisted

scripts that runs on the EVW independent from any of chain authority which is basically like it's limiting the own execution on the EVM like for example like take uniswap v2 okay uh is no upgradability there is no oracle required to run so no offchain data no ownership and it's totally permissionless And then we are like going into the web 2.1 which is like okay uh let's take for example like some application like balancer that yes there is all of this stuff but you have like a semi upgradability which doesn't touch user money but it touch like the logic around it and then we have like okay applications for example that to require

to run they need like to be upgradable if they if the choice or to need Oracle to run like for example you can take If you use W2, you can make your own interface and it just works. But you cannot take an application with require a back end like for example a per uh or for example like uh maker D with oracles or whenever and then you have like web two which is like exchanges or games. So basically things that they just use the blockchain to receive the funds and then is all about their own logic.

And then you have like something that is in the middle here in the middle there like for example a yes they have some updates but at the same time it's not like a uh it's not like a balancer or you have for example poly market which yeah it's not exactly a checks but it's kind of um then we have the same for assets like we have like for example if we are just the utility stuff like what is the best utility that just on chain is work like what it just like wrap ethereum to use in anc20 and doesn't have operability just has it ility there. Then we can talk about like for example like we have like other tokens where the utility is based on someone offchain someone else offchain efforts like for example monster the Dow token

or even a meme coin with ownership announced we can put it here and then we have like you know even here we have a gradable um oracles required to run and stuff like this until we go to the actually is it real crypto like for example like stable coins uh centralized stable coins you the all utility of these coins is about like one real world uh company who is exchanging this to dollar or for example an NFT which the flex is on the image and uh so and uh then we have like so the direction to to the web tree is is is this one um and then we have like

other challenges like that we that people like that we solve like like in Ethereum and here like we have a lot of people who don't think about in this way but I want just to share like for example security budget like for example why Ethereum went from the proof of work to the proof of stake uh for one simple reason because the security budget of the chain in a proof of work is not like 100% guaranteed because it's okay it's defined also by offchain stuff like for example electric electricity or whenever uh you know like um computation uh computation but it's also There is a lot of talking about like is the security budget which is the most important thing in a in a chain like really secure for making this chain like

run infinitely like for example in a proof of work because here for example we have uh taking for example like bitcoins we have like the um the miners reward that okay they're cutting up like every single time and for example you see like you have the miners earnings which is like and the cost like for example the ash rate that's go parabolic and what is go what what is the deal is why this is not like mathematically secure that it will run infinitely is that if the price doesn't go up infinitely as the hash rate the hash rate go down and the cost of attack is less and less and less because the security budget go down and this like is fixed uh and then like we could talk about anonymity and privacy when we have

like for example what is means like mining bitcoin and what is means like validating ethereum but that's like another story which is a bit a bit of flex Um and then you have for example the proof of stake which is like a a flex a flexible issuance that depends of how much people stake. uh there is also the deflationary part which is like AP1 uh uh um 1155 like for example that based on transaction like how people use it like it's uh is basically uh reducing the the supply and um and so this means that only only about this like whenever happen into the real world and whenever happen in the market you are pretty much secure that is enough enough like security budget to run the network

infinitely. Uh then you have obviously like penalties penalties per block and actually the proof of work of Ethereum is res is resilient to six 66% attack and we can talk an entire event about why because it's pretty much complex for a lot of people uh instead of 51% of ash rate like uh there is consuming like 99% less energy and is like anon friendly as we saw here because it's very difficult to be anon when you need this to [snorts] mine and uh it's very easy to be anon when you just need like a small ARM computer or something like I can just go around and yeah concentration but this is just this is just a flex let's go forward and uh then we have the the scalability for

example the classic idea about like okay how we scale like the the crypto the crypto stuff like which like most of the alternative layer one that out there like what they do they just like renounce on decentralization and security to just having scalability and it's pretty much uh what is going on where Uh the challenge on the Ethereum side it was uh made by layer choose for so for who don't know what is a layer choose it's just like okay uh we can have these miracle miracle proofs and so you can run like offchain computation uh which bring you like security about uh the fact that if you have an asset into a layer two you can redeem this asset into layer one and you're pretty much secure that on the time that required to do the

validation like what's happened there it's secured by theum itself on at some level of degree and uh so uh this is what we have now we I think we achieved like today like 3,500 uh transaction per second actually taking the >> 5,000 >> 5,000 today oh even more and also this bring like a lot of experimentation out there because there is a lot of different layer shoes are raising fund especially like the level of experimentation that was in decay when layer 2 started like is insane for example into the validation perspective and also like a lot of non-financial applications like take for example

and uh so yeah and uh this is how like it's scaling like maintaining like security and decentralization and we scale like in way more time because the challenge are the big one and even here we have a lot to talk about decentralization [laughter] because for example yeah you have like uh I don't know If someone of you follow like for example the different stages into like uh L2B it's like we didn't reach like an actually decentralized layer 2 as it should it is supposed to be but we have you know like stepby-step um project who are try to achieve this is long term then we have like side chain that doesn't give you like for example asset security you have just upset economic security and you have

alternative fm like uh chains which are basically like uh you don't have this asset security but at least whenever happen there is like it's more decentralized in terms of just routing the way you can escape for example to a more secure chain and then you have nonvm alternative layer one which mostly like the real way uh to that doesn't require a third party is a checks and then you have checks which just like okay we have proof of funds that's the only decentralized thing that they can do and there is like binance smart chain which I don't know if it's like on this side or this side I think for now I will just put here and uh so why like for example from the foundation and vital

why why we need aum cypher pank again which actually uh vital in this position is more like why we need the cyber punk bro but uh okay um the whole idea of what we require for the industry to go forward this is like global participation uh auditability so building open source be able to audit uh decentralization kind of obvious credible neutrality is the only uh like I can say is the only flag that only have censorship resistance tool not not empire so this means like try to make tools that other one can improve not just try not just to try to make yours like more powerful than others and cooperation and if you

think about all of this stuff is same in the same line from web 2.1 to web three like on nation state control so something that is not like decentralized enough. You can have comparation, yes, you can create tools, yes, but to having censorship resistance, auditability, global participation, you need credible neutrality. And that's why it's so important to try to stay as much as possible. Let me see if it works this. Yeah. Oh yeah, it works here because this is the challenge that we have in the space. And this is why we have value because if not, we are like one coin. I don't know if someone remember this. It was a Ponzi scheme. actually I saved my mother to investing on it um to don't invest on it.

Um and there is also like a lot of challenges that are going now right now. For example, light clients which is a very cool stuff that that very few people talk about and I would love to have someone that we talk about in about this like in it privacy which uh it will be like mostly the main topic of November par execution zk scaling uh state minimalization and UIX which is like the challenge that I approach right now and all of this uh with the hard goal of incorruptibility even if your cost ed by people that say my blockchain is faster and cheaper. You have people who say I I extract better there because it's faster. Other people who say a new

token, a new token to farm, I mean at the same at the same time like normal people in crypto that understand what is going on there say we need we should regulate crypto and politician who say not today. But uh what means be Ethereum align and why is important like all of this? uh my reply to this which is like basically like try to drive the ecosystem to this but my reply my personal reply is working on solution that makes sense to achieve the web tree so everything will stay on this side not excuses to launch a token I don't like money probably but this is

how uh things work and so on this side you have things that are worldwide, independent and secure. And on this side, we have politic regulated and something that require you know like humans and stuff to be trustable and uh what's vital think about this it's open source so code must be unspecable and permissionless. Uh digitalization and security we I think we talk a lot about this and open standards. So don't reinvent the wheel like there is like an ERC to do this. Don't reinvent because it's create exploit balancer and and and issue [laughter]

interoperability about about wallets and application and so on so forth and especially build stuff which have a positive s both for Ethereum uh which contributed to to open source uh to open source um don donate uh whenever you can and also for the world so enable financial inclusion because all of this is here not to make you rich but to make you free. And if we are too much into try to make rich at some point like everything we have it doesn't value anything anymore because we're building like a pony over a pony over a pony of the pony and uh and especially not gaslight which means like if something uh you're doing

for some reason don't say like oh but uh I'm doing a positive sum because with my meme I make people rich is not like a a real positive sum. uh so that that that was pretty much like the uh the conversation that I want to introduce because it's like some topics that very people that is not trendy to talk about it like for example what what is the value of thisization and so what is a tibility about tibility is to give voice by merit what we want to achieve it's a community of people who are actually uh doing something that matters on Ethereum and so and also like bring here all of the voices that are building stuff that are actually uh

important for I can say the future and uh so this is why for example like uh the November season which is like from the next event on is very very is laser focused I would say on privacy which we will have like for example like uh from Hinkal like UIX and compliance of privacy which is a very cool topic because they built a wallet where you can stay anon when you're using it and so also like the part okay like if I have a wallet which is anon and it's very cool and now it works how can I use this money to the real world what is the compliance there uh we also have for example like lucid which

it uh it will talk about like zk and the future of privacy so straight limit like understanding what what what we are talking about this and to finally like this topic we have uh one of my personal friend actually which is like a zlat and so this means like when a defi application is hacked this is the guy who find like exactly who this where he live and how to put your lawyer and get the money back and it will talk about the importance of uh onchain privacy and how we are basically in terms of privacy and how to pretty much improve and it's going to be like it will be very very interesting then on December we uh have another very cool topic which is truth.

Um uh I invited um Matio Tambusi which is like a researcher on on the Ethereum community fund which uh what they're doing is uh try to basically build like the the web three version of Wikipedia which is now it's kind of like a topic because we have Wikipedia there some people say okay this is like politically involved stuff and then we have like rooedia from Elon and we say oh that's it's probably I don't know political but you have also like the the fact that someone uh owned this AI And so like is it possible to create something better? We will discover together. And uh and then like we have for example December 10, December 15, uh 17 that we also like have to decide what

we will do and maybe like uh we can decide together like in the next hour. And uh and also like all of the talks and stuff from ETB easy they will go on YouTube. You can follow Onyx like on Instagram at easy and on Telegram at [laughter] uh um so uh what we will do in the future it will be like mostly um we want to build like very very important conversation on the space and bring here to to Tibil easy and we want also to make hackathons together for

something that really matter. matters and we will talk about this like later like going on with with the creation of this community and that's it. We just want to have the cypher punk vibes and create value as much as possible. And uh yeah uh who am I? I'm basic. I'm an Ethereum maxis in 2016. Probably like the rost one you can ever met in your entire life. And uh uh I'm a coder. I'm a maths guy. I'm an opinionist, an entrepreneur and an investor. like I did my ex project in D5 which was about Dows and D5. I'm a I was an early supporter of being for example like the communities for example in Italy back in the days and now I have my project which

I'm a solo founder which even if it's the sponsor we will not doing advertising we will skip it [laughter] and because that's the kind of sponsorship you're searching about and uh so thank you thank you to be here and I hope we will like create uh the most interesting community on Ethereum and that's like [applause] why I'm I and uh so yeah there is a pope and also like now you can get the t-shirt which is only for people who participate into this one by following on Twitter and entering into the telegram the pope you can get it like without this tasks and uh uh there is way more people than I

expected so there is probably not enough t-shirt but uh if you do the task on the next event next week you will get your extra t-shirts actually so sorry for this uh we expect way less people today and I'm very happy of this and that there is more people actually and uh so yeah so uh I would love if someone like have some question and stuff uh someone want to came like join here and we'll start like to have some kind of discussion >> this this one >> this is for the voice this is for the video >> okay [laughter] um I don't know my friend really wants me to ask why not Salana [laughter] [gasps] >> that's a that's a very interesting question. Um

so uh first of all I believe on all of the value around research on Ethereum uh basically and I disagree with a lot of people like on Solana because the idea of Salana is like okay you can scale to 1 million transaction per second but this means that to achieve this you have all the people in the same place. So this means the only way to buy this Salana you will be like on the same actually like physical place because their challenge to scale is to have a very very small small small lag which is kind of like physically impossible and uh so I disagree with this personally speaking. Um I love all of the people like also in Solana stuff and uh there is some research especially on memes but like the uh I I actually like think that

uh uh I don't know I'm just not aligned with the vision of what this means digitizer or not. I got some fight with the founder actually on Twitter but it's just fair enough. >> So and and also like uh yeah so this is pretty much >> I have a followup like a follow-up question. Huh? >> I have a follow-up question. Yeah. >> Go forward. >> Uh, I mean, you talked a lot about utility, right, and sort of driving value. And I guess I think for a lot of people that are sort of exploring the space, but also been building in the space, what is the sort of core value, right, that decentralization drives, which is sort of the counterpoint that you've been making against other ones, right? what is sort of the value that decentralization has managed to drive so

far or sort of in the works uh of making happen that let's say other L1's can't deliver or don't deliver for any reason. Uh yeah. Um so I think that uh so actually this is a this is a difficult question because I'm just a guy on Ethereum and not like the the the the architect the architect of the of the whole stuff. I just think that like Ethereum have the stack basically uh which give you like uh um an advantage to others mostly. They have like the builders in the community which

see like bigger uh they always seem like also foundation and everyone in also invested more in like into builders than actually making money [laughter] k or this kind of thing. uh which on the long on the long term I think this is like the winning way and uh and also um I think that in this specific moment and this is like personal overview okay like uh I'm not talking as it beltoski >> uh uh we are into a interesting season in this moment which like uh it doesn't like give the right it give like a different value uh two things. Um

and uh like the we are in this gray area in crypto in this moment. Okay. like where I know a lot of smart builders and a lot of people and most of people just like most of the smart builders in this this period like not not talking about infra not talking about layer shoes but most of the smart people they want to build something they are just practically waiting because like a lot of people don't know what will be legal what will be illegal like very soon and actually like if you have a company crypto and like for example uh my personal stuff from my old startup is that even if you do like everything like super uh in a in a legit way, you're still like for a lot of people like banks or or stuff like a pirate [laughter] and it's not so fun actually

and uh I think that like uh um we it will be interesting to have the discussion why Ethereum is more valuable than other whyization matter after we get some clear regulation like in the space cool thank you >> now it's more like people can bet that regulation will go into that one ction people can bet that regulation will go on that direction. Uh the only thing that is is still be there whenever happen is decentralization. That's why like money and stuff or whenever I think it's very valuable for for people.

>> All right, sounds good. Thank you. >> So what kind of uh regulation do you expect? because we have mikar in Europe, we have some regulations in the US and um are you talking about the defi regulation or like technical decentralization regulations or what do you expect? >> Uh okay. Uh no no I I have one. It's just we have two. Um that's that's a question from I think like one 10020 billion dollar question because like uh most of people say we are in a crime season [laughter] which I agree and uh so in back in 18 uh I wrote like what

regulation should be I wrote an article about this like back in the times that for example like regulation they should go based on how much ownership someone have both in terms of a network and both in terms of an application. So for example, if you are a validator and you as a validator can roll back the chain or can do you something. So what's the difference in terms of responsibility between you and Facebook? So why Facebook? We can blame uh regulatory speaking Facebook to have pedo stuff and we cannot blame you that you have the power to roll back the chain or to do something. So to stop a scam to make an ascap a scam happen. Same for application layer. So if you have an upgradeable application and so this means that uh with the upgradability of it uh uh you can actually like

manipulate user money uh so you are a broker in finance and so uh this for example my personal bet on how the space will go into this regulation and this will change everything mostly but uh it's we don't know like probably uh it's a bet literally what's yours Oh well, I don't have an answer on that but I mean we have some certain regulations in Mika for example was for uh payment stable coins.

>> Yeah, stable coins and different categories there. um about that like your view on the um regulating the nodes basically like I how do you see the current L2s how they are um disable [laughter] at all like we are all here probably Ethereum maxi uh or kind of and uh I mean we can we can speak about this responsibility of validators when the system is truly decentralized like Ethereum or I I know this a little bit but uh not every L2 and like not every L1 >> that's a huge problem actually uh like for example uh when back in 2020 2021 I

I read about the so I'm one of the people that are not like super happy about this the the layer 2 based uh road map actually personally speaking um because uh uh this problem that like for now there's few incentives to actually you know like be decentralized enough as a layer two and uh which is true because for example like tomorrow the United States of America they can go to optimism and say oh you need to do this update >> this will happen at some point like I strongly believe that we will achieve a moment where regulators will do something like this and uh and so the arriving to stage three stage two to

stage three it's kind of like very very important. That's why like for example uh Vitalic is trying to pushing this so much. Um and also like for example I'm a huge fan of the idea of based roll apps because like one of my uh but regarding of regulation there's a lot of stuff that I'm like actually imply on layer choose like to not be like the best design ever and uh but uh it's it's kind of like about time but yes this thing is very very possible to happen and it probably will happen at some point that's wouldn't bring like probably it will be the stuff that finally will push like teams to say oh we should achieve very fast stage too. So

>> yeah also like kind of like the paste rollups we have some of them but like the market does not >> the market doesn't value any yeah to adopt them and to use them or like to prioritize them at all. Um yeah uh thank you for >> oh thank you for the question but actually uh my theory on this is that now the market don't uh value anything because a lot of things that supposed to be not so so so legal they are because we are in a gray area I I it's like since 2022 that I'm waiting for regulation to actually go forward to create incentives on builders actually >> and that's like a huge problem we have

right now in the space I suppose actually Yeah, I'm I mean I'm kind of sorry. Uh I I I thought about the regulation that uh currently the major states and the countries they apply the old regulation financial regulation to the new projects and new infrastructure. It just doesn't fit but uh they still do it and it works in in some way. And also um the fact that the US currently um adopting the stable coins and they are fans for of stable coins with the bills and so on.

Um it already shows that um even though the regulation is not fully here it's gray area but like projects uh and even institutions they ready to build and yeah use the technology for their advantage actually uh not just for free of course because there is a lot of money >> yeah but uh yeah but I don't know I think at some point something will happen in terms of regulation because I don't think that we can go for too much into you know like um into extracting extracting extracting extracting extracting extracting actually. So probably like uh I think I don't know I just hope that

this round of regulation will bring to something actually especially like into DeFi and these kind of things but we will see. >> What is your favorite D5 project? >> Uh unis swap. >> Wow. Sorry, I have to leave. [laughter] >> No, actually like I'm not a huge fan of of some architecture of the unis swap before in general. Uh but uh I like unis swap. My favorite version of Un is the V2 actually and I have a lot of reason for why but that's >> how do you like V3 V4 >> I mean um generally the I I don't like because of the token uh structure like we have cure we have a drone finance and

it's much better much like >> that that's an important thing like for example take unis swap okay the token about regulation >> so everyone know that is not like the unis swap team which is actually so bad as a team because unis swap is the most like u I can say like ealign team that we have in the space in terms of defi the problem is that without care regulation they have this token which they supposed to do something with it and they cannot do because for example most people complain about why unis swap don't do like for some uh revenue share or something like this it's because this gray area of regulation so is I struggle with that The fact that people complain

that okay we have a lot of tokens and the token don't have utility is because most of the financial utility to attach to a token to create value they are in the gray area and especially teams that are more focused to be compliance to try to work for long term they're really scared today so that's is something I hope that it will change like regulations >> you have another example finance they do it and they are I think they're pretty successful um >> yeah it's true it's true they also have a very great team actually >> yeah And they yeah they're going to uh announce something big in a in a week actually.

>> Ah >> uh yeah looking forward. >> Okay. >> Y >> then >> thank you for for the participation. [applause] >> Come here. [laughter] >> I do my apologies in advance but there is one thing I have to mention. Uh there was a cut uh that showed uh >> what when >> I do not remember frankly back back. Anyway, uh it showed a bunch of gear to mine Bitcoin, right?

>> Oh yes yes yes. >> And a small piece of gear to >> this to validate Ethereum. Yeah. Here >> and there is my one thing one just little thing I have to say. Sorry, but proof of stake sucks in terms of decentralization and this card uh displays everything, you know, because >> tell me more. >> Sure. >> That's why I'm here. >> Some classic debates now. Ah >> yeah. Uh to produce, to mine, to get more Ethereum to stake, all you need is 32 Ethereum

>> or more. >> Or even more. Yeah. Uh that's quite much for most of us >> but you have like uh for example like rocket internet stuff if you want to stay less or whatever >> and on the other hand when you >> sorry so for example like uh you have mining farms right so I can mine like virtually without having like all the computer on on my house at the same time the proof of stake of Ethereum have uh like protocols like rocket internet rocket pool and stuff that you basically just stake just a bunch of token into a shared stake pool. So, it's the same exact thing.

>> But my point is the following. Uh to mine Bitcoin or any other proof of work, >> you have to buy gear to change your gear because it uh gets outdated quite rapidly. >> Yep. And uh you have to rent to buy some space to hold all that stuff. And you have to spend one quite much on electricity. >> And that means that when you mine it, uh all you have to do, you just have to sell it because you have a bunch of different costs to cover.

>> That's true. And uh not all but sometimes even more than uh the whole rewards you get from mining blocks. You have to spend uh to all that stuff. And contrary to that uh when you mine when you stake Ethereum you just get uh get that uh base rewards and you do not have to spend it for anything. So the rich just gets richer >> and he's also b more bullish on the market because you don't have cost and billions of sales but that's another story. So it's not a cost for the whole people like in the space. Uh so first of all I strongly believe that proof of

work mining is just a pony scheme. Uh because basically like you are forced to to uh continuously be part of the game because you're forced to buy new hardware, spend more electricity, improving, improving, improving and and this create by default like a pyramid where bigger get bigger and smaller they are out for actually earning blocks. And this is what's happened because like remember that bitcoin mining like is like this now we have two entities that have more than 50% 51% of the ash rate and this like not a good deal but anyway uh depends what you value more in my personal opinion like for example I

strongly prefer uh proof of stake because in my opinion and that's like the most important thing for me as a you know person who like ethereum more than bitcoin is that uh I like that uh uh validator can be you know like more let's say anonymous than than bitcoin because for example here I'm United States of America and these people they can already like manipulating blocking this sucks moment and it's kind of impossible for us to see it because bitcoin doesn't have for example archive nodes it doesn't have like a lot of stuff that are into Ethereum that if you are in this

situation you can figure it out if they are actually doing it and we can talk a lot about this actually but I want to stay on the question. So uh the difference is that here the fact that you have way or more bitcoin into the uh governance of bitcoin it doesn't matter. Okay it doesn't matter if these people sell or not what is matter it's how much they are growing into ash rate because the governance of bitcoin is about the ash rate not about >> uh the token itself. So I don't care if they sell it or not. Okay. As uh I care that there is these companies who push up the ash rate putting out you know

small miners and they constantly growing and growing and growing to achieve this and uh on on on the on the post perspective first of all it's totally like a different way to uh to to do stuff because for example Ethereum have finality you don't have finality in Bitcoin. So for example, if I have enough mining, I can literally like I spend like tons of money. Okay, that's true. But I can literally roast the whole history if I want. Uh with the finality on Ethereum, it's very difficult to go under the last finality for example, which is like this is already like a good thing. Second, um uh you need to have uh to do an actual attack. So don't to not just block the blockchain to do the next finality. You

need to have more than 66% of the total stakers >> if you want to rewrite it. >> If you want to Yes. Yes. Exactly. uh and every block that passes if you fail uh you are slashing and slashing and slashing each block your money and uh uh and so I don't think that it's actually a way to make just richer get richer and it's just like so I I don't see the incentives actually to to have this richer get richer because like uh imagine you get like 33% okay The only thing you can actually do with 33% is just uh uh like creating in some way like your say with a fork and

wait to be slasher until you go down the 33%. Like there is a lot of like or for example like think about like people get richer richer richer first of all uh like I don't know I how to put this into stuff. I I I don't see this problem anymore like pretty much in a in a very different way between Ethereum and Bitcoin actually because in the in the proof of in the proof of stake yes people get richer in term of tokens but in the proof of work these companies uh like the whole incentive in terms of computational power create like this company that have more uh hardware and better partnership in electricity which is the real governance as is token on Ethereum. So I don't see the difference.

>> But if I'm not mistaken, this pie on the left, it just demonstrates uh the shares of uh pools, right? And the thing is that when >> Oh, sorry. I I forgot to give you this. [laughter] >> It doesn't make much sense. >> Uh the pool itself is uh not money because uh the pool is just a network of miners connected to it, right? And anytime, any minute, any second, any miner can just exit the pool.

>> That's true. >> And join any other. So it's questionable to me. uh this file on the left >> it's uh so for example like is the same is uh you're correct in this uh you're correcting this but it's the same uh stuff and saying when people so for example uh there was like a lot of people talking about uh uh Lido if I remember correctly which get like near 32% of Ethereum is the same exact concept you can just unstake with Lido and go on rocket pool or stuff like this is the same exact concept the problem is that whenever you are in a big mining pool in Bitcoin and whenever you are in a LIDO for example uh who decide uh the version uh the uh that is run and who

decide if uh we want to include block for example the alpha complian compliant you remember like also like all of these discussions that they were like back in 22 is still on the mining farm so yes it's like the same problem [laughter] actually that we should find a way to solve like it's not like a a challenge between the two this this is what I think and it's a huge problem. >> Absolutely. >> Whatever. So that's my point >> and this difference is quite like religious right >> uh >> in some ways. >> Yeah. Uh sorry if I I didn't give you the mind like uh there is some so it it depends on like I I I don't like disrespect or something like about like people uh that say they say that the

proof of work is better. Okay. Um in my opinion I'm more proof uh for the proof of stake for a lot of reason that I actually like uh say in the conversation before. um only only history tell like at the end of the day okay because there is a lot of different stuff I strongly um the problem is that for example what I blame about uh proof of work people especially Bitcoin people is that instead of being focusing on to collaborate to solve challenges they are focused to talk every single day on Twitter against Ethereum people because they are difference and that's what I blame >> [laughter] >> Yeah, that's fully understandable.

Bitcoin people are just some kind of people and there is no consensus between Bitcoin people themselves, right? But I don't know if you paid attention. >> Yeah, I saw it. [laughter] >> Anyway, thank you. >> Thank you. Thank