What Blockchains and Linux Have in Common - Phil Zamani, Aergo, Blocko

Transcript

[Music] hello and welcome to the blockchain and us we're pioneers and thought leaders talked about their journey in blockchain technology crypto assets and a token economy and I'm your host manuel staggers this episode has support from my very own the blockchain and us a newsletter get an email from me every two weeks with a very short summary of new podcast episodes so you can immediately pick those interviews you'd like to listen to to stay up-to-date just visit www.nasa.gov/twan [Music] phil is the chairman of the Ergo

foundation and co-ceo of blanco Korea's largest blockchain infrastructure provider he has over 20 years of experience in managing open source businesses and has worked as senior VP at Deutsche Telekom's cloud business unit VP of Sales and Business Development at Red Hat and as global head of big data and cloud models at Banco Santander and now to the conversation with Phil Zamani I feel and many thanks for taking time today I'm very good to be with you thanks man well Phil you've spent a lot of your career integrating open-source software and are now leading a blockchain firm in Korea called block o

and we'll speak about block a later in this conversation but let's first speak a little bit about open source and block chains for example you've worked a lot on Linux and Red Hat and how do you see these projects differ from how open source development works in the blockchain space okay no really good question difficult answer but let me try and give you a short answer so firstly blockchain lightly Linux is an open source project so the technology is free for people to use and adopt and change the I guess the biggest difference between Linux and blockchain is Linux Sol's a different program Linux is a replacement to an operating system that was used for many years by many large

companies typically UNIX operating systems blockchain it is different in that it's not only a replacement technology but it introduced a new way of doing business in effect blockchain allows trusts to be implemented using technology where Trust doesn't exist so slaughtering technology introduces a new methodology but blockchain will probably follow a similar path to Linux and other open source projects in that if it is to be adopted look worldwide in Easter attract many developers and many customers and by being an open-source platform it has a better chance of being adopted mm-hmm but in terms of the open source paradigm you know we're where we say it's about bazaars and cathedral

building is do you see any difference between how developers work on a project like Linux or how they work on blockchain yeah there is what difference in that Linux from the beginning was one project in effect one operating system and the community very quickly got behind the leader of the budget at the time was lineage to all those and his number two was Alan Hawks in the UK and they pretty much organized a project around their common theme blockchain on your hand that there are many variants of blockchain so is like having multiple Linux's so I personally believe that we will see in the next three to four years fewer of these emerge as major platforms that probably won't just be one blockchain

they'll probably be a handful of a pretty much like cloud computers that's where it's different from Linux Linux became one platform that many companies use but we believe I believe blockchain will avoid like cloud computing where you'll have probably a handful maybe up to send blockchain on to run world hmm okay I just I wanted to ask that too I mean because oftentimes you know there's these two views right there one is there can only be one blockchain and it will rule them all and the other one is that you know there's many many integrating systems you know also with with projects I cosmos or polka-dot where you know you can you can develop almost in a platform or blockchain agnostic way so you just

said you think it's more the latter there will be several projects and several block chains that intersect with each other yes I think I strongly believe that and you know which one of my catchphrases is in IT and technology whilst history doesn't always repeat itself indefinitely Rhymes and there's a rhythm to how technology gets adopted and I'm talking about transformative technologies like tcp/ip HTTP in the 80s Linux around 2000 cloud computing in the last 10 years Hadoop for big data you will find that in general there's quite a lot of competition in the first few years and so the the the hype dies down and then there's a consolidation for

platforms to support cross the chasm I believe this will happen with with a blockchain as well and just to add one dimension when I mentioned earlier in Linux was one platform a she's not quite true there's a hit to Linux platforms but most people don't know that the let's second one is actually a Linux platform Linux is a general operating system that's used to power most of the internet most of the cloud computing world but Android is actually a derivative of Linux as well it's a Linux version built for mobile phones so there will be a number of platform and as ease as I indicator as you are big debris there will be a number of plans around the world they'll be probably I guess less than ten block

shape platforms in the future and they will be either very large general purpose platforms or they'll be specific platforms for very large industries like banking hmm and where do you see a theorem and the Bitcoin blockchain fit in there yes I think though is it's probably worth explaining Bitcoin is what we call a first generation platform it's a single application the Bitcoin coin running on a single kernel or single platform which is Bitcoin protocol he theorem is what's called a second generation platform it also runs on one chain if they're obtained but it offers multiple applications by way of smart contracts there are now third generation platforms are trying to fix performance issues and then as emerges

of even what we call fourth generation comes of which we are involved with one of them that is trying to be much more than pure blockchain so I think Bitcoin will probably be around for many years because the usage of the coin will be still interesting to many parties who want to exchange value from a NASA perspective where there needs security of privacy and if peer under the hand I per see half of you that may be a fear will will morph into something different what that may be I don't know I think if you're emerged as a or touched a Bitcoin to fix a business use case so it's a general purpose platform for b2b type platforms however I personally will not

have the scalability and performance needed longer-term to be the only platform it will probably be around for quite a few years but whether it's the only platform it's very doubtful but I think the architecture is flawed in many regards and still at the same time there's you know Enterprise Solutions now being rolled out on aetherium I mean what what's your view on that well there's a lot of applications and proof of concepts and there's many many thousands of practice on etherium then very few of them in production and you've got to ask the question why are these projects not really in production and it's because it's not just about blockchain what many people forget when you try to launch application so hard business-oriented or community or ecosystem oriented you've got to

implement and hand into hand system which is not just a blockchain itself it's the it's the integration with the IT infrastructure the communication backbone the throughput the security and I say integration is one of the biggest issues so there are many proof-of-concept that not many production systems yet a scale but this is the fault of the blockchain or is this more you know are more the enterprise's to blame you know that they have legacy systems that they need to integrate that maybe their processes and culture don't really mesh with with this approach or where do you see at the main bottleneck in that adoption yeah yeah a fault I think it's just a reality that

technology takes time to really really move through the maturity curve on the one hand you're absolutely right for large companies integration lack of skills security performance and scale is the issue that's not not share projects from being deployed but it's also the the way companies want to use technologies when you adopt the new technology you often many comers trying to use this to replace existing systems primarily cut costs actually don't work that way most technologies really get a doctor when you do something different when you do something transformative so most of the pocs out there are built on existing architectures where or for clinic

integration becomes a working that the companies are tend tend to make most progress with new technologists like blockchain other ones that take what's called the sheet approach they try to design something new where they did not have to worry about integration at least the first phases I mean you just mentioned some of the bottlenecks for enterprises and another huge bottleneck I think you know especially with Linux was of course also dead the current vendors that had locked in you know many of the Corporations wanted to push their own version of off the operating system on on their customers and obviously something similar is happening in the blockchain

space to you you have this enterprise blockchains permission blockchains from from big consortiums so how do you see parallels between maybe how this linux war versus windows or other proprietary solutions versus the you know this blockchain challenge of different block chains or proprietary block chains for enterprises pans out yes good question ain't that again to paraphrase the example is early in that history doesn't always repeat itself that it rhymes most vendors out there whether they're software vendors hardware vendors or IP integrated OEM tend to focus on their customers existing customers and they have

so-called lock-in because their technologies adopted and is difficult to replace one system with the other so many of these companies used to have their own operating systems so before the late 90s there were many many versions of unix is bsd system v AIX might be an HP x from HP sun OS from sun microsystems and to somebody said the operating system glues everything together it converts applications into computer language that the computer can use so once you would not from the and operating systems very difficult if to switch out so most of these vendors have no interest in adopting new operating systems because it in effect affects their main revenue stream that's why in technology whenever a new disruptive

technology comes along you typically have the large IT vendors ignoring this and saying this will never work it won't work because it's open source it's free its blockchain nobody knows about were yes then after couple years they all come in they all enter and suddenly they're all pro the technology and they will then use their brand well of course you can use this technology but you must use it from us because they're a very large company that starts with an i and an energy than him ya know so and certainly they try to take over the market but then three or four years later the market and he finds the right solution and typically the right solution his new entrants who come and who are dedicated to this market so when you look at the linux many come to my

IBM Microsoft HP all and Oracle pushed their own versions of Lenin and they still have this version of Linux but they don't make any money out of it because they pretty much give this away our low-cost to try and keep their customs happy the most used Linux in the world is Red Hat Linux and silly they're the ones that are adopted by most companies because these companies all they pretty much doodles limits when you look at big data and machine learning there are many variants of big data out there but it's comfort of my fortune works and it's oliveira who are offering the solution because these are dedicating companies at this so in technology specialism and dedication often wins longer-term wins with developers and he went through the

customs we've been the same will happen blockchain there are many large companies talking about blockchain and promoting blockchain and know that they have great solutions but many customers will probably go with new technologies are dedicated to this market that is pretty much our sorry mm-hmm and the main reason for that I mean you mentioned a few reasons basically you said specialization and a single focus on on this application its death the reason why companies should you know adopt maybe not the proprietary version from that company starting with in I and ending in an M but maybe something that's open source yeah I mean I everything listen it's never black or white and many companies will take a open platform from a large vendor when

they decide is just another piece of technology and it's awesome convenient to stay with your existing big vendor and add it to your testing contract so it's simple to stay with existing big vendors but if a company has decided that this technology is truly important to them and they want to grow on top of this technology they will always seek to get the best support they can to this technology and often the best support comes from the people or actually it very closest and obviously typically development is tech like Red Hat like I do know so it is in in simple words if it's not important you may just take the same version the software from an interesting bender if you believe this technology's transformative in it more for your future you're likely to go and

find a dedicating custom but all they do is support this infrastructure but you want the best service 24/7 365 days and yet mm-hmm ok good point and what's your view I mean you mentioned or not sure you mentioned it but in another conversation you mentioned Korda and r3 what's your view on these consortiums yes I think the key word is the last word you use consortiums in technology especially disruptive technologies when consortium get together the real value they bring is long-term standardization but the thing they don't bring is innovation quickly because consortium typically are

driven with a vested interest with a if you like a hidden agenda the companies are often drive to the sort you have big vendors and their interest is to if you cannot beat the technology get it close to you so you can control this but I've a very sketch reveal this consortium comes open source because the most open source you have not succeeded and promotes the technology because the technology know the source follows a different path it's a path that no how no matter how big the vendor is you cannot control the way open-source developers adopt and promoters technologies why do you think many of these projects will probably either fail or not meet their original objectives mm-hmm and some I think have already scaled

back you know some of these banking block chains I believe so let's say let's say somebody was a bank and you know had the option of joining a consortium or developing their own approach to blockchain technology so what what do you think should they be doing well they should do what they think is right but I think there's a third option one option is to build it themselves but a bank think building software is a bit of an oxymoron banks are there to make money by investing people's money in different projects so building software is not a skill that many banks have or will have anytime soon sorry to interrupt but I mean many

many people working at banks they say banks have been software companies for twenty thirty years yeah well I don't agree with that I think some banks have been software companies typically people like Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan that 99% of Acts can using software they're not software companies they use software and and this is a very important thing I believe but to really be a true software company you need to need to live and breathe software all the way through and this is a challenge because those companies who think they can become software coverage despite discern that with a blockchain company or the building of the source will learn the hard way it takes a lot longer it takes time to develop technology and sometimes these comers don't have the patience

it's not about money it's about how fast the technology can be evolved so most of the banks tend to either join a consortium partly to learn and use this as a testbed to see is this technology really going to disrupt our business but some also joined because they generally want to promote the technologies but eventually they'll hit the same problem who is going to support the software because ultimately you will never deploy any critical piece of software in your business unless somebody can give you 24 by 7 support now bank is not really there to give me 24 buy some support for software is there to give you support for actually all your assets so eventually somebody will need to be the custodian or the owner or the the principal if you like insurance company

for those technologies and that's why I'm eventually you will end up becoming a no vendor unless this completely changes that it hasn't changed in the last 40 years so I don't see why that's gonna change in the next 10 years ok and I mean last question about that you said maybe a bank or another you know incumbent big corporation that wants to get their feet wet with blockchain technology may want to join such a consortium just to learn and you know dip their toes a little bit on in the water and see what that feels like but what do you think would be a good approach for you know a company that feels that the blockchain will somehow transform their business model and will

you know cut some of their revenue streams but nevertheless they have to keep the technology close like you said before and understand it to be able to compete in the future so what do you think is an approach a company like this should take to this to this technology yeah again a very good question and I have a because I've done this well and not well to companies if you want to use transformative technology really new technology you must empower a team to have enough time in space to experiment to assess whether the technology can really be the kind of hype but often is associated new technologies that means setting up a dedicated engineering team with

leadership team enough time money and space of flexibility to experiment now in a banking world that means creating a complete sandbox for the team's experiment without any restrictions activity you would put on technologists that's the first thing the second thing is you need to pick a realistic project to really get to results quickly because if your project takes a year to produce any results people just lose interest so you need to be able to do this within three to four months maximum and that means often partnering with somebody but it will take your team time to ramp up on the skill so you must find a start-up or a dedicated company that can quickly raise your awareness and your skill sets you do a really good proof of concept there after you've only

got to decide is it worth doing a real production system because a real production system will be much more complex to implement because typically you've got to get it work within your existing IT system there are other requirements around regulation security performance statements ability here so in short if you want to use a new technology you must give the team time to experiment then you need to decide what happens next and think through how would you got this within your business those companies who do not do that nearly always fail there are many many innovation units and incubation units in balance in telcos in manufacturing companies in very large companies very rarely do they generate technology that is used by the business and often

because they forget about the politics and the integration difficulties needed for new technology to get adopted within the company okay I mean you just mentioned that on the surface it looks like they're doing a lot but maybe when you take a little deeper they're you know just doing business as usual let's take a quick break for a message from our sponsors this episode has support from my very own the blockchain and us a newsletter get an email from me every two weeks with a very short summary of new podcast episodes so you can immediately pick those interviews you'd like to listen to to stay up-to-date just visit www.hsn.com and sign up today yeah I mean sometimes it's

a dress rehearsal it's like it looks good to be showing that you're looking at blockchain or things like that but until you first understand whether it's right for your business because it may be not right for your business then you've got to find a use case that will drive value for the business to get adoption and awareness so you can slowly start raising the profile of this new technology within the business that means you need to sponsor but you also need to have help to identify which workers can be done quickly to prove value and if you focus on using these technologists predominant to cut costs immediately you often fail because frankly speaking you'd be better off just asking for a discount for an existing vendor and saving hassle or

adopting new technologies mostly technology technologists get adopted when they can do something new for the business and that's where the most advanced come with looking at blockchain are spending their time thinking through where could we use a blockchain based architecture to create new value for our business or customers or our suppliers mm-hmm good point was there anything you wanted to add to to this conversation about open source and applications otherwise we can move on to block oh and ergo yeah well again I don't want to plug this but I I had been asked this question a few times before so I wrote a quite a detailed article which summarizes the parallels between Linux and red hat with how clock shape may

evolve in the enterprise space so if people are interested they could go online to medium they can look at my name Phil zoom Rd and there's a very detailed article which explains the learnings over the last 25 years and that might be amused to some of your listeners yeah definitely I'll definitely put that link in the description of of this episode thank you let's move on to your current projects blocko and ergo so can you just maybe briefly describe what what these projects are all about a block was a company based in South Korea we're currently 42 from so it's a four year old probably one of the oldest companies involved in a block chain

their background has been take existing technologies Bitcoin and aetherium and take this to customers who want to experiment and try out law change in proof of concepts then it is over the past four years and two years ago they found a way to make these systems work in real life production systems be around speak specific use cases so the company's transformed from being an early consulting private PLC company to do in four production systems so as of today is now a four year old company backed by companies like Samsung we've raised significant funding this is a equity funding to grow the business it's a 90-mile organization that

specifically takes blockchain into specific industries and builds production use cases so companies like Samsung card Lotte card Hyundai Kia Motors Shinhan Bank the largest back in Korea the National Bank of Korea and even the government is using the technology from lotto to build blockchain based systems so they tend to implement real life systems this company has realized that many of these platforms out there like aetherium and other projects lacked certain technologies before they can be used and mass so block Hall has worked with a new foundation is an open-source based foundation in Hong Kong called Perrigo spell AE our geo and this is building a

completely new platform it's a platform and not a protocol because it combines not only blockchain some other advanced technologies and a different approach to try and create a new engine for blockchain based systems to be used by any company around the world and I'm glad to expand on that if you're interested in for me to explain yeah definitely I mean just the one follow-up question there you said it's a form not a protocol how do they differ exactly yes so think of a protocol like an engine in a car and a platform is not only the engine it's the chassis you see the interface the steering wheel and the that's highest lead machine and this is a difference many of these block chains

are in effects in order to plan technology protocols they're typically a public or a private blockchain useless for silly news cases but if you follow what I said earlier for this technology to be adopting really much more around blockchain to make them a completely ecosystem of technologies and that's what we call a platform so in the case of ergo we describe ourselves a fourth generation platform back to my analogy earlier about the convenor first-generation it's a fourth generation platform because it combines four key capabilities firstly we do not believe is a public versus private chain it's both and in fact as a combination so it provides a hybrid approach to using private and public chains fit for

purpose that's the first approach and I can come back later second is for these platforms to be used by businesses you need to provide the software tools and the techniques that are needed to truly build business applications that can scale for hundreds thousands or maybe billions of IOT devices to do that you need to bring in the Best of Breed that is used by kalmyk Facebook and Google Anna Baba and how they build application that's scale so this means bringing a software development technologies service computing a cloud computing to give you the benefit of scale that cloud brings so we're bringing that into blockchain and we think it's one of the first time has

ever been done at this level the third thing is open source we're making our architecture open source and the only in terms of technology it's as of licensing immigrants as of approach this is what we set up the foundation be a not-for-profit foundation in Hong Kong and last but not least we're bringing in the skill sets and the tools needed to fast-track developers so they can quickly start building block chains so Blanco is a strategic technology partner of ergo so blockers providing its poor skills and its technology to incubate the beginning of ergo so all that know-how having worked with over 23 customers in Korea and built over 25 production systems with many

millions of users all the skills and all those capabilities and know-how we're bringing into residence which we call deployment workbooks deplorable prints were bringing that skill set and capability into this system to allow pretty much any company to build a blockchain very quickly mm-hmm okay cool you mentioned some of the companies that you worked with in South Korea Samsung Hyundai and and other its Lotte I think what are some of the of the learnings maybe that you that you had with working with these companies you're sure so what the learning is that blockchain does not work everywhere it's still too immature in many regards to be used in every use cases but there are some very very good

sweet spots of where blotching can be used and if you print find a customer where that sweet spot addresses a need that they have today you can very quickly it's not only build a blockchain you can build a relation and confidence with the client but they can actually do the second and third or fourth generation projects in every case of these quadrants we are doing multiple projects we cannot announce them because some of them are very confidential but these are be used as building blocks so if you find the right customer and the right user case and work together and deliver value then you can move the next level which is actually validating this a different scale on a more complex architecture where there are also instances where you know you started working with a company you had a pilot

project and then the company said you know that's just not for us yeah that happens quite a lot early where the customer has the wrong expectations or they've decided to change their mind so this happens with any new technologists and often it's the case the people who start a project either move on so in different projects or the customer changes their priorities luckily that does not happen that much right now because we've learned quickly how to assess qualify real interested companies and horse qualify the workloads and that's probably one of the key things and not chained if you have the expertise or where it doesn't work you have a better chance of making work where it works but there are some some instances where

customers have decided to back down and not pursue this approach and you said it earlier many banks started developing it on block changed forever reasons they've abandoned it or scale down his operations mm-hmm have you been working with banks as well yeah sure we have three banks in Korea I mention two of them Shinhan Bank is the largest bank in in Korea and Korean national bank and in both cases we're building identity management systems where we allow the blockchain to integrate two separate identity management systems across the group where they want a single source of truth so they're using blockchain as the identity management master for different credentials to be validated so they generally have one password one if like

AI interface into the world so banks are using blockchain with us predominant for identity management you also mentioned IOT before what kind of IOT projects are you working on yeah so what we can't talk about we did this project a while ago we had an early project with Cisco to experiment with a distributed blockchain for what they call for computing fo G for computing is the idea that cisco has that for IOT based devices which are billions potentially to really scale you have to move the intelligence from this center of the cloud to the edge hence the Fargo so cisco wants to

experiment with using blockchain as a way to validate devices and I think we get them in a distributed world because IOT devices by nature are distributed so you cannot run a central database for an IT system where you have been as a device of what we need is a distributed database so the usages are very natural one interesting and most of your projects even though human elements in Cisco but most of your projects are in South Korea right sure sure but we are do now questions international as well yes what is you know speaking of South Korea I mean we often hear about you know the Korean arkad and mostly about the hacks of exchanges or some crazy prices that people pay for some coins but what is

South Korea like as a location for blockchain technology well South Korea is amazing and and I'll tell you the best part and give you money well 20 years ago people used to talk about Japan as the kind of economic center of growth in Asia this is before China became obviously where they are now but just as we saw 20 years ago of the emergence of come with mites at like Sony Matt Shuster Panasonic we are have in in Korea equally big companies but there's a difference they're not just doing consumer electronics they're building technologies for manufacturing automotive supply chain of course mobile telephony with Samsung and of course to see the product so so Samsung is a an

example of the kind of company exists in Korea but there are many many many companies developing technologies incurrence a very young economy it's a very vibrant economy to a very tech savvy economy and if you have a visited Seoul it's an amazing city everything is digitized there's much more tech here than you'll find in most companies or most countries versus of a Singapore and it has a very young very vibrant population this means there's a lot of developers here they develop some cool games of the very large game committee here there's always the center of excellence of blockchains and as much as you hear about crypto and people be nervous about investments in coins the

truth is the government here is invested significant blockchain because they understand the destructive nature of watch and logic and build the businesses and the the government here wants to see South Korea continue to Lee is one of the leading edge sends elections watching how is the knowledge exchange with the government and with regulators working for you what we can't comment but what we can say is that the government here has a working body but is looking at everything to do with with crypto this is both crypto coins it's so-called I SEOs its blockchain and we are involved with many of those discussions for two reasons number one we want to be oldest companies in blockchain and

number two we think we have quite a lot of skills and credibility how the world with large companies to showcase what you can do with blockchain so we are very close to many of these discussions I can't tell you too much about that for me well the reason I ask because you know in Switzerland that's oftentimes one of the USPS you know that people talk about they say oh it's very easy to get in touch with regulators and with governments and speak with them about technologies and you know block chains and cryptocurrencies in particular you know in terms of regulation and specific laws that may may have to change so I was just wondering how that's working in South Korea it's true many regulators and bodies are interested in

understanding technologies so this is very easy to have these discussions but there's a big difference in having discussion to educate versus having a deep discussion to help them regulate and build new laws we are very much to the second category we are in effect and getting involved with discussions to discuss how we can move this technology and the surrounding ecosystem and regulation to make this much safer for the only businesses to use but also for people if they do make investments to invest safely understanding what they're investing in they're making sure a lot of the negatives and the scams and the the negative that kind of connotations that go with coins are removed all the time from the industry what is the main

thing you want to achieve with your projects yeah so yes so what we believe is like Linux we think that there is a really really good opportunity for these new technologies to solve a specific problem and the problem is a very big problem it's the centralization of data for control if you look at the digital economy most companies are consumers of digital data but there's very few companies who are controlling data it's the it's a Facebook mr. Google's of this world so if they say that data is a new oil where that's true how come all the oil goes through certain pipelines and control my made

six or seven companies around the world we do believe data's in the oil but data needs to be shared to have the best value you cannot share it if you control it or somebody is a control point so we believe a distributed world where data can be shared and trusted that scale is the future so how does a platform is trying to become the platform that allows distributed businesses to share their data in a trustless environment at scale without having to go through a control point like a Facebook or Google or other companies that's what I was trying to build an ecosystem and a platform that allow that vision to come to version mm-hmm cool what's in your view what do you think will happen in the coming maybe 12 to 18 months in the

blockchain space I think the next 12 months you'll see a lot of two things I think you'll see the regulator will move faster than people realize to help promote the simulation the right way by moving removing the bad actors and stopping scams but also promoting the technology and the second thing is which we are spending most of our time on you'll see more and more real news cases evolve in some very very interesting areas and this use case are the most fundamental thing needed for many companies to believe it's an homage to solve real real big problems so we think you'll see a significant change in a move from pocs to real reference customers and that's what we're focusing

on making our technology work with customers to showcase real use cases that if those things happen the technology will move to the mainstream pretty much like Linux did it's a probably a three or four year journey but I think you'll see a significant change in the next 12 to 18 months cool yeah let's hope that happens Philip that was really interesting very fascinating conversation and I really appreciate your taking time today max ever so much Madeline I appreciate the file thanks so much for joining us today more info on our guests and our sponsors is in the show notes for this episode and on the podcast web site the blockchain and ascom to help people find this podcast it's important that you download

subscribe and give it a top rating and review on iTunes or on the podcast platform of your choice I'm Manuel staggers and I thank you very much for listening [Music]