Welcome to Rollup TV 2026: Predictions Review, Show Updates, Key Narratives Outlook

Transcript

down. [music] I'm above the [music] >> [music] >> I don't [music] want the

[music] >> [music] [music] >> JP Morgan, Black Rock, DTCC, Fidelity, the entire thing was just institutions. It's [music] just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say.

I'm bullish. You said it. You finally said it. I'm so bullish. It is bullish. I'm bullish. We're bullish. [music] [music] I'm [music] about the [music] H the [music]

[music] mother the B the B [music] >> [music] [music] >> I'm above the [music] >> [music]

[music] >> Corola is headed to the top. If we're not already at the top, we're going to the top. We're on fourth floor today. We're going to be on floor one and then we're headed straight to the moon, boys. >> 2026. Bam. Happy New Year. >> First episode of the year. What up, >> man? >> What up? What up? What up? Calling in from Hawaii. It's 10:00 a.m., baby.

>> How'd you get there? >> Yo, let's go. Took a plane. I've been on my mental spiritual reset here, man. >> Yeah, >> dude. So, yesterday there was um something about uranium in the in the from the government and we were talking about uranium on the show the other day, >> a while back. Yeah. And I'm telling you, these Marin Katusa's Rise of America book is so dialed, it's insane. >> So, that book was written a while ago, but you're saying now it's come to fruition. >> It was written before It was written like as CO was kind of like coming out, >> right?

>> Um, but yeah, man. Happy New Year. Happy New Year, guys. >> Happy New Year, >> man. It was a good time in Tampa. >> We got together. We uh handed out some awards. >> That was so funny, man. That was a good time, >> dude. They had the fire cooking. It was getting hot in there, dude. >> Dude, the awards ceremony was hilarious, man. >> Yeah. Yeah. Little known secret was uh there was ginger ale and the champagne glasses. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Don't tell. Don't tell.

>> Man, that was fun. >> That was a good time. >> That was number 100 of the show. >> That was episode 100. Obviously, I mean, we've done thousands of podcasts. Oh, yeah. up until this point. But yeah, that was that was number 100 of the live show. Plenty of learnings as well. But it's always fun getting together whenever we do it at the conferences or we do it otherwise and just it's a it's a good time, man. It's a good time. >> And uh I'm looking forward to a lot of fun conferences this year. We'll be in I mean, should we just run through this late real quick? Where are we going this year? We uh >> we're gonna head out to Denver. We're a little skeptical. We weren't really >> Dude, I think I'm going to consensus Hong Kong though first.

>> I don't know. >> I was I was a little skeptical. You said it was going to be good. I was I've been to a consensus in Austin, Texas. Might have gone to another one. Oh, I went to Misari mainet, which is the other one like off the beaten path. Have you been to Consensus Hong Kong before? >> I went last year, man. But I just don't know, man. I did the Consensus Hong Kong to um Denver flight. It was just Don't you remember? I came to Denver. I was literally wrecked. And then I I got that IV ordered to the house. >> Oh, I do remember. I do remember that you were in the bottom floor of the Airbnb with the dying out, just crashing out hard.

>> The doctor's assistant was sticking the thing in your arm and you were freaking out. >> I honestly don't think, dude, I was so lightheaded. I honestly don't think uh I will I will uh I don't think I'll I mean, yeah, my Hong Kong adventure will definitely not be the same as what it was last year. Let's put it that way. Yeah, Hong Kong. Uh, I haven't been, but I've heard it's really, really good. >> So, that's probably going to be a good event. But, yeah. Yeah, if so, whether I do that or not is kind of up for grabs. I do have about a week kind of to figure out where what to do. But, so then Denver, we'll be at Denver. Uh, we're excited. We'll probably be moderating a couple panels. That'll be fun.

>> And then we're going to head out west. Uh, we'll be in California. We'll be in San Fran. Uh we'll visit some of the uh the AI metropolis in Silicon Valley. Uh we'll be going to Near Con. Shout out to the best in privacy. >> Yo, >> best in privacy near >> That's pretty cool, man. >> Zcash, we should um we got to mail those out to these people. >> Yeah, we will. We will. Let's do it. I think everyone will be excited to get those. So, we'll be in we'll be in San Fran. We'll go we'll go to Nearcon.

We'll visit some of the Silicon Valley uh companies out there. >> And then man, we've got a American Dinism uh expedition ahead of us. >> Yes. >> And towards the end of Q1, uh we've got some secrets in store. We're not going to give those away quite yet, but we'll be in New York Digital Asset Summit. >> Uh obviously Trump addressed Digital Asset Summit last year in New York. Y >> uh so we'll be there again this year. Um, and then we'll be in DC for DC blockchain summit. And yeah, >> I mean there are some rumblings around maybe that's a good segue because there's some rumblings around the clarity clarity app.

>> Yeah, the market structure bro getting passed. Um, I feel like that's all for Q1 then. That's like what three conferences >> that uh Yeah. So Denver, Nearcon, Digital Asset Summit DC. So four conferences. Dude, did you also know that there's a there's a consensus Miami this year? >> I did not know that. >> May 5th to 7th, Consensus Miami at the Miami Beach uh convention center. >> Okay. Well, that one should be fun. Miami conferences. I haven't been to a Miami conference since uh the Bitcoin Miami conference.

>> Alex Rodriguez is uh is is speaking there. >> Yeah, he's a he's a Miami legend. >> The baseball guy. >> Yep. He was uh he was he was part of the uh the steroid crew up in uh [laughter] up in the New York Yankees. That boy was roided up >> for sure. >> He hit a lot of home runs, >> but uh he's quite the business guy. Um and uh Miami should be good. And then obviously ECC is early this year. ECC is uh in April. >> Yeah, it is in April, >> which is kind of weird.

>> It's a little weird. It's a little early for uh for a European summer. Yeah, it's not a it doesn't align with the Euro summer energy at all. >> Yeah. So, we'll have to figure that out. >> Kind of weird. Do you think they just did that because it was so hot? >> Could be that. Uh >> probably was. >> You know, obviously last year the Olympics or 2024 the Olympics were in Paris and so they moved it to Belgium, Brussels. >> That would have been the year to to adjust the timing, but they kept the same timing. They just moved the location. >> Um >> I don't know. We also have the World Cup this year >> in New York. Yeah, >> in the States.

>> Yep. >> What are the dates on that? >> Good question. I believe it's over the summer. >> June 11th to July 19th. >> Wow. >> That could have been another reason because that would have over overlapped as well. >> Where is this thing being played? I saw that Trump lowered the prices a ton. of I don't >> wasn't strong. >> He claimed it was Mani was claiming that he was gonna make the uh the FIFA tickets affordable for everyone, but he didn't have the authority to lower ticket prices for FIFA. So that got community notice.

>> So you've got games in Mexico City, Guadalajara Toronto LA Boston Vancouver, New York, San Fran, Philadelphia, Houston, Dallas. They're saying New York, but the stadium that they're doing the games at is uh the the New York Jets and Giants. The >> New Jersey stadium. >> New Jersey East Rutherford. So, >> not quite New York, but uh in the >> And they got Miami. >> Oh, yeah. >> Atlanta, Seattle. >> Dude, I'm definitely going to a game in New York then.

>> In Jersey. >> Uh we got Brazil versus Morocco. I will for sure show up in a Brazil shirt 100%. 6 PM. >> Can you name a couple players? >> Oh man, you're you're killing me here. >> Putting me on the spot. >> Neymar. Where is Neymar at? >> Is he still playing? >> I don't know. I don't think so. >> Dude, they they've got some studs though. Morocco's pretty good, man. >> Really? >> So yeah, that's kind of like our Q1 plan. Um, man, what a wild couple of days to start off the year. I mean, we had Vance and Michael on for the last episode of their kind of like segment on the show and I remember I was bare I was

barehold and they were like, "Yo, man, you know, come January, I think it's things going to really start moving because this tax loss harvesting or whatever it was, whatever reasoning you want to create for your for for your, you know, biases." And turns out they were pretty much spot on. I mean, the market went pretty much vertical from January 1st. Like January 1 all the way through yesterday, we had five green candles on Bitcoin in a row. Kind of broke out of that range. Kind of retesting there. I see a lot of different calls on on uh on Twitter. So, kind of a nice little boost to start the year. Um sentiment wasn't was zero. The market was going straight down for three

months. It was pretty bleak. I mean, I completely I I I think a lot of people signed off and are still kind of signed off. Um, and I think that that has led to what's happened. I think a lot of people are sidelined. Um, yeah. I don't know. Arthur put out that post yesterday and I'll read it verbatim and I'm curious to get your take. Um, we'll start this off. So, >> Arthur's so good. Arthur writes, "Um, there is no point in attempting to use past data to discern what levels of oil prices and 10-year yields cause Trump to reign in the Fed's money printer. We will know it when we see it. And if oil prices and yields trends sharply higher,

then it's time to become less constructive on risk." The base case is oil prices remain subsided, if not outright fall, and Trump and Buffalo Bill Bessant print money like it's 2020. This is because the market will initially believe US control of Venezuelan oil will cause a massive increase in the daily amount of pumped crude oil. Who knows whether this initial bullish crude oil supply will actually come to fruition. And so between this oil trade and this kind of like mania happening with uh oil prices going down, sounds like there's a more stronger credit creation bullcase for uh 2026 so far. I mean, what a crazy event, right? Like, I mean, I didn't think

taking over countries was like part of the agenda into the 20 the 20th or 21st century. Here we are. I mean, Trump made it pretty clear with Greenland, right? That was like part of his campaign platform was like, we want to go into Greenland. It's like it's it's strategic for national security. They didn't get Greenland, but you know, colonialism, imperialism was sort of on the agenda when he was going into office. uh it just manifested you know geographically different in a different area than we thought. I I think that quote from Arthur um it's important to understand I think the lens through which to like to look at this.

>> Yeah. >> Which is two things. One is that uh Bitcoin is based pretty much entirely on the amount of credit creation and the speculation that more credit is going to be created. People call it the inflation hedge, gold hedge, right? Digital gold. As more fiat money is created, the price of Bitcoin goes up. And this is because there's a fixed amount of Bitcoin and there's an infinite amount of dollars. And so this is pure debasement trade. This is pure more credit gets created.

Uh Bitcoin price goes up. And so everything through which Arthur talks about and and I think the right way to look at Bitcoin is through this idea of will it create more credit in the system. And so once you have that fun that that fundamental baseline then you can look at you know this this thing that happened in Venezuela right Maduro and then implanting and basic you know potentially seizing all of these all of these Venezuelan assets for America. >> Yeah. all that Bitcoin >> h I mean Bitcoin is one thing but the oil and the gold is significant when it come I mean it's more oil than they have in the Middle East or some Middle Eastern countries and it's more gold than a lot of central banks have on

their balance sheet >> that that is still in the earth so it's a matter of how much you can pull out of the ground >> but ultimately >> it's going to be uh what and and and and so you kind of have this base case for Bitcoin right which is fiat debasement uh credit increase and then credit creation. And then on the other side, you have politicians. He who controls the money printer, right? And another arthurism that is in that article is, well, all politicians are concerned about is getting reelected, >> right?

>> Yeah. Do you see Trump today was like, if the Dems win the midterms, I'm going to get impeached. >> That's what he said. >> I wouldn't be surprised because they would just throw lawfare at him. And so the idea that like yeah, you need like you need to get reelected because that's the only way you can affect change. And so it makes sense like you know you can't control anything if you don't get elected. So first and foremost you need to get reelected. And so what is far and beyond the one reason why a politician gets elected? It's domestic economic issues. And Arthur isn't alone on this.

Tucker Carlson went on allin two or three weeks ago and they they said, "Hey Tucker, a lot of people want you to run for president. What would you do if you were president?" And he would say, "At the expense of everything else, I would focus solely on domestic economic issues." >> Yeah. >> And so that that's the reason people get elected. And so you kind of have this dynamic where if America and Trump is able to pull enough resources out of the ground in oil and gold and subsidize American domestic >> the American domestic economy, you can effectively print a ton of money and everyone wins, right? Because you can keep like middle and lower class happy

by keeping goods and gas inflation. you can keep inflation low. So lower and middle class are happy. But at the same time, you can print money till it's coming out your ears because then the the the wealthy class are going to be uh happy as well because the stock market's going to go up. The top 60 60% of Americans own own equities and so you can make them happy as well. And normally if you print money to the effect that you know the stock market would go up, it would also cause inflation and the lower and the middle class would be unhappy. But if you can kind of square the circle and you can subsidize the creation of new credit, then you kind of have the scenario where everyone wins. So >> yeah,

>> I think this is going to be depend. I think we're seeing the speculation now in the market where prices are doing quite well. That is starting to subside even today because I think you know the the market is beginning to rationalize well really this is going to be dependent on >> a few things. One is who ends up taking power in Venezuela. Is it is there going to be a coup and is there going to be some sort of revolt in which uh like Maduro supporters or anti-American uh regimes take power and then end up fighting America tooth and nail when it comes to exporting or are you going to get an a friendly American regime in Venezuela? And then two, even if it is a friendly American regime in Venezuela, how much of these

resources are they able to pull out of the ground? And then three, how much of them are they going to end up shipping back to America? We're seeing a lot about oil. You know, American oil stocks did quite well because we're assuming like at first glance that not only are we going to get an American regime that is open to pulling a lot of this out of the ground, we're going to send in industrialists to pull it out of the ground. And then three, we're going to end up enriching American oil companies by giving it directly to them at the expense of what was previously Venezuelan. Now, a lot of this is very indirect. It's kind of this transitive property. If one, then two, then three. And all of these have to happen in order for markets and this creation of credit to

really take hold. I don't know what the probability of all three of these things happening. I would say maybe it's, you know, 30 40% or so. Andy, my question to you is a little bit more specific to Maduro. If this guy had trillions of dollars of oil and gold sitting underneath the surface of the earth in his home country, why did he have to lead a narco terrorism group? >> Yeah. Yeah. I don't know, man. I think it's uh he was doing he I don't know if you saw there was like reports of him using Tether for a lot of these payments to get around uh sanctions. Um, yeah, they had all this natural resources and they that their GDP went down 80%, they had the most inflationary regime ever.

It's just like it's just socialism, man, and communism. And now they're talking about Cuba. I I think it's generally positive to just end up getting rid of socialism and communism as a construct in the world. I I think that that's just like a uh a positive uh outcome for the global for the global state of affairs. Yeah, man. I mean, what a crazy crazy couple of days there with with and then just like the videos of of him dancing and then and parading the guy around town. And anyway, so we we don't need to get into geopolitics too much.

>> We pulled up in the Nike tech. >> Imagine [laughter] we would have worn the selling out his his sweatuit like all this stuff. It's just so silly. So silly. Um, I saw a tweet that was like geopolitics is like every like every it's like every man has all these takes and we'll talk about geopolitics for hours and so let's not let's not get too caught up in the geopolitics day. Let's get into some of the market stuff. Let's get into some of this neo finance category that we're that we're slowly finding to be uh the most important area of the market to focus on in 2026. Guys, for those watching, we have really firmly developed a thesis for this year and really it's probably going to extend

longer than this year and we want to talk about it more. We got a couple other things to cover. So, let's go ahead and pull up some of the latest happenings in in the market and get into it today, guys, uh on some of the of the latest tweets and posts that kind of struck our our cords a bit here. Um so first one being uh Vitalic with the we solved the blockchain trillemma. >> We solved it. It's done. >> EVMs are at an alpha stage. Production quality performance remaining work is safety and pure is live on mainet which happened with Fusaka. If you guys recall when we were at dev connected bonosaris it's time to talk about more about what

this combination means for Ethereum. These are not minor improvements. They are shifting Ethereum into being a fundamentally new and more powerful kind of decentralized network. To see why, let's look at the two major types of peer-to-peer networks so far. Bit Torrent in 2000, huge total bandwidth, highly decentralized, no consensus. Bitcoin, highly decentralized, consensus, but low bandwidth because it's not distributed in the sense of work being split up. It's replicated. Again, it's this consensus replication that causes a lot of these blockchains to kind of slow down. Um, now with Ethereum with pure S25 and ZK EVMs, expect small portions of the network using it this year, which is bullish. We get decentralized consensus and high

bandwidth. It's kind of like everything that we had hoped for. Um, you know, if you guys recall, Celestia was big on the kind of pure ass. Uh, they were going to try to solve that for Ethereum. Celestia veil IDA. Um those altda solutions still have far more throughput than Ethereum does today especially given their their coming updates but pure like the first step towards that effectively bringing in uh what is known as erasure coding or data availability sampling to Ethereum meaning previously Ethereum was was required to effectively look at every piece of data coming onto L1 from L2s and verify every single piece of data on

every block. This allows you to take an entire set of let's say a hundred of a hundred uh pieces of data or a 100 transactions or 100 blocks and effectively verify a third of them uh or or in that kind of realm of thought. And because you know that that these you know 33 random uh data sets are available uh and verifiable then you can then guarantee that the entire set is. And so that's think of it as like you instead of having to check off every box of a of an equation, you can check off some of the boxes and because some of those boxes are verifiably correct or available, uh you don't have to check the rest. And now ZKVMs, which is again uh effectively bringing in far faster

proving times for Ethereum, proving Ethereum's consensus and uh allowing better interoperability between L2s and just making the L1 far more scalable. you get this kind of like decentralized consensus high bandwidth. So Vitalic goes on to say that the trilmma has been solved not on paper but with live running code of which one half data availability sampling is on mainet today which is the peer ass and then the other part ZKVM is production quality on performance today safety is what remains guys because again once they push this ZK EVM stuff forward it's hard to kind of pull it back um and so if there's bugs it's kind of like why L2s haven't gone to stage two yet because once you

get from stage one, you still have this kind of like escape hatches, these kind of ability to edit the um different parts of the code, ability to kind of like uh censor the sequencer, change different things. Once you get to stage two, it's almost like you pour the cement and then you can't take the cement back without breaking it completely down. And so, um this was a 10-year journey of Dash and ZK EVMart's attempts in 2020. And so, yeah, he goes on to kind of say what we'll expect in the next four years. Um, and yeah, man, I mean, look, Ethereum had has executed a bullish reversal here and they've done it and uh the tech is getting there and it's bullish and it's just great to see.

So, I I just think that this was a huge thing for the Ethereum community. It seems like Vitalic really wanted to set this off in the beginning of the year as kind of like the big um you know big part of of his agenda, set the year straight for Ethereum. So I'm glad to see it and um just more and more bullish on Ethereum. So unironically I think this is extremely bullish for for ZK EVMs, but no one's really going to realize it until it's too late. Meaning that the this is setting the stage for the snarkification of Ethereum.

But I think kind of like what Santiago had described in his article, a lot of those infra protocols are going to gain significant amounts of adoption, but their prices are not going to go up. And I think Ethereum is going to swallow a lot of the institutional capital. And it's going to take a long long time maybe like two to five years before a lot of that ends up trickling down deeper into the ecosystem into the ZKVM or the ZKVMs generalized uh ZKVMs um ZK marketplaces proof generation proof verification all these sorts of things and so again this is part of the neo finance thesis but it sort of stops at this point of infrastructure where this table is set and the table isn't just

set for the regulatory those to have a place uh at the table in the room. Uh this table is also set for the infrastructure that is being used now is essentially getting locked in to what Ethereum is going to look like for the foreseeable future. And so if you look at the generalized VMs, uh Brevis is making a late run. Boundless uh and Succinct obviously are doing quite well as well. Our friends over at Aligned are doing great things with the proof verification network. Um, all of this is great and I think all of those are locked in to have phenomenal years in terms of adoption. Uh, those with tokens that are live, best of luck because I do think Ethereum itself is positioned to

swallow a lot of the dry powder and institutional liquidity that is up there for grabs. Not to say that, you know, these companies won't hit tremendous milestones when it comes to engineering. I think ZK performance ends up getting uh uh more performant by an order of magnitude and these teams end up doing quite well in terms of business but I don't think it translates into uh token price go up for a lot of these projects. So, uh, with that being said, uh, I do think that Ethereum is positioned to do quite well, uh, as a lot of this infrastructure ends up, uh, becoming

more ingrained into Ethereum, uh, one could argue that it is centralizing a little bit, um, because they are starting to lock in a lot of these pieces of infrastructure. Um, and I do think institutional capital will continue to pour into uh a little bit more of the consumerf facing layer uh of Ethereum being the DeFi app layer. And so while I again I think uh the infrastructure that we've talked about a lot uh is starting to become more entrenched into Ethereum and that is actually quite bullish for a lot of these infrastructure projects in terms of adoption and mile and engineering milestones. Um I think ultimately that infrastructure helps to empower what is going to be this this growth

[clears throat] module uh for the space as a whole which is this consumer DeFi uh realm and this neo finance area that I >> the neoinance realm >> the neo finance realm I think is positioned to be uh the most lucrative when it comes to 2026. Again infrastructure probably does quite well in terms of adoption not so much in terms of price. I think the neo finance realm, this, you know, this new form of mullet, the CFI in the front, DeFi in the back sort of mullet, I think ends up uh really taking hold and doing quite well both in terms of uh token appreciation as well as uh adoption and business cycle.

>> I agree. And the tokens already looking quite quite strong. So, all right guys, that is Vitalik's posted very well. Was super stoked. Got the entire Ethereum community stoked. Um, so excited to to to have that one there. Um, yeah, and bullish on Ethereum. I mean, we'll see what what happens. Um, I I think Tom Lee is aping clips still. So, um, we'll move on from >> It's not going anywhere. Him and Shalom. They've got billions still to [snorts] go. >> Yeah, dude. That Shalom post is doing well. People are excited about it. Um, good to see.

>> Finally got that one out. People like it. So, yeah. All right, so let's move on from Vitalic. Uh >> yeah, we've got a lot to get through and our uh our next guest is going to be here in 15 minutes. So, what do we have next? >> As we mentioned, Tom Lee decides that, you know, he doesn't have enough ETH, so he needs to buy more ETH. Um Tom Lee funds Shrats Bit bought another 32,977 ETH last week and currently holds 4,143,52 ETH. Um yeah, I mean Tom Lee buying ETH is insane. So, I don't think this guy's gonna stop. Like, when will Tom Lee stop buying ETH? Like, when will he?

>> Why is I I don't This is a serious question. I don't understand the narrative around Tom Lee buying ETH is bearish. I don't get it, >> dude. I put out a tweet and I get I think people are saying that because they want to see um they want to see what he's made of if we go down a ton. And so that's what the bearish take I think is and people are like what is he you know is he controlling too much of the supply? What happens if he has to puke a bunch? Look Tom Lee is not stopping anytime soon. Like he is going to go. He's not stopping and it's crazy man. It's crazy because he's going to stake and he hasn't even done

convertible debt yet like Micro Strategy but he's talking about it. And so they have a shareholder meeting in nine days um that he's trying to get a massive proposal through for the company before um and they will not stop. They are going to go raise convertible debt. If you recall, once you get over that $10 billion mark, banks will loan to you at about a 10% loan to value ratio on your on your uh you know total capital. And so he's well over that 10 billion mark. In fact, we can actually see what where he's at. He's got about 14 I think. I think he's got 13 billion in ETH and he's got 1 billion in cash.

>> So he can go ahead and raise more um debt >> from banks. He can buy more ETH. >> The thing is though, like >> it is kind of crazy that he has bought this much ETH and we're sitting at 3237. kind of makes you wonder like without Tom Lee and Joseph Shalom like where the hell would ETH have traded? [snorts] >> So >> yeah, I I tend to think that um like I tend to agree. I I think these guys aren't going anywhere. I I think they're going to be around for the long haul. I don't think you buy 14 billion dollars of an asset to watch it go down and then sell.

>> Like these guys can totally get caught off sides. Anything can happen. But to me, it's like this isn't you don't put all of this all of this structure and all of this organizational overhead together >> for like sell the bottom >> for a short time frame trade. This is a structural company that they're building. This is a publicly traded company. >> And this is what we were waiting for, right? We were waiting for like the institutions with longer term horizons that don't care about the month-to-month fluctuations. And it's finally here. And so, strap in, guys. Strap in. That's Bitmine. That's Tom Lee. Um, yeah. I mean, great. Keep buying, guys.

Like, the they're going to keep buying. Um, >> I'm not a believer in the Tom Le bearish scenario. To me, they >> What if he's right? >> To me, this I mean, this guy is gonna have the patience to sell at a profit. >> Yeah. Well, his entire life and career depends on that. Like he's basically put his entire life into Ethereum, which is so sick, but insane. Like Sailor has for Bitcoin and and Tom Lee has for ETH. >> How do you think the the conversation between him and Vitalic go?

>> It's like, "Hey buddy, I own 4% of your network. You're your darling child. Um, don't don't [clears throat] mess with me." Right. >> And and I'm Vitalic. And I go, "Hey, Tom. We're gonna we're gonna [ __ ] pier ass and we're going to become the most scalable decentralized uh high bandwidth consensus world computer. You think he likes the world computer? >> He's got to like it. He's got to like it. We We got to get him on the show this year. It's coming, guys. >> I like the lowrisk DeFi narrative. I like finance narrative.

>> I The world computer everything is tokenized creator coin vibe. >> I don't know. Coinbase likes it. Vitamin V likes it. I don't know. Vitamin V. That's my boy. Vitamin V. I coined that one. All right, guys. Let's move on from Tom Lee. He's going to keep buying. He's not stopping. Um, yeah, man. So, this one was interesting from Vance. Uh, the total near collap or the near total collapse of VC dollars going in DeFi means there won't be a thousand Teimu versions chasing every incumbent. Golden age.

>> Hold on. Before we get into this, shout out to the tariffs for killing Timu. Fast >> tariffs killed Timu, >> dude. Have you seen anything from Timu or Sheen or any of these like fast fashion Chinese companies? It was absolute garbage. And it was just like it was like plastic clothing that you could get for like $2 and they would ship it to you and it would arrive in like two days from from overseas. And that is what their business was made of. The shipping cost was so low that they were able to export these like super artificial goods. Yeah. And it was just lowquality uh stuff.

>> No, I've not I've not seen or seen anything from Timu or Sheen, but I must say I'm not exactly like watching out for Timu and Sheen. >> Used to see a lot of it, but it's no longer around because tariffs uh made it infeasible. Anyway, go ahead. >> Still bullish. Mega ETH. Yeah, I think so. I think their launch is coming pretty soon. Um, and I'd be excited about that. Tom Tom Lee just needs a solid strategy for buying ETH. Dude just stinks and timing his buy of ET. Yeah, it's funny. Again, I don't know that he really even cares, which is the crazy part. So, the near total collapse of VC dollars going into DeFi means there won't be a thousand TU versions chasing every comment. Golden golden age. I think what Vance is referring to here is like all

these info companies had all these different versions coming after them. You had like, you know, you had like the L1, then the old L1, then the then the next L1, then the L2, and then the next L2, and then the next L2, and all these different kind of like infra companies trying to cut, you know, go at each other's throats. But then DeFi fell off like we even rebranded from DeFi Slate to the rollup in uh early 22 or so. I think it was like mid to early mid to late 2020 or no, it was early 23. Um and and yeah and and and DeFi fell off and so all these VCs didn't want to invest in DeFi or apps. They just wanted to invest in infra because that's where like the consistent return profile was.

And clearly since then uh DeFi has had a lot a clear lack of investment. And so I think what Vance means here is like you know his Sky and his Maple and his um you know other investments hyperlquid etc. I guess purpose is like the one that you can kind of argue that there's a lot of these t-uver versions. Um but yeah, man, I think what he's trying to say is like there's very clear winners and I think so too. It's very obvious. I mean, there's just clear winners in the DeFi category, especially in this neo finance category that is like gonna gonna just keep winning. And and so I do think this makes investing in this category easier than others. And so I think that's what kind of what what

Vance is trying to say here. But >> yeah, I I I think the takeaway here is just you don't need to catch the beta, right? It's like you don't need to go look for like the second, third, fourth best in the category and think that they're going to have some outsized gain because the top provider in the category has already won the category. No, it's like just go bet on the winner of the category. And this is true not just in DeFi or crypto, but uh you saw this in like personal computers with Apple, you see this with Amazon. Like >> there have been new categories that have gotten formed and rather than betting on the second best, uh it's more lucrative

to just bet on the winner of the category because those are the ones that end up >> absorbing the entire category and then the category grows and they end up having a lot of room to run. Even though you think, oh, they, you know, they've already gone up so much, but no, usually this is the way it happens because they have the network effects and this asymmetric return profile that ends up flywheeling and has a bunch of momentum. >> Yeah. I mean, it's just like DeFi has been underindexed and underinvested in and it's coming and like the the infra has been built. It's time to push the envelope on the application side and I think it's clear that that's what that's what that's what's happening. So I think a lot of the infrastructure that you know I I think you had gotten up but I

you know when Ethereum was on on you know we were showing this headline with Ethereum it's like you know I I I was saying how I think a lot of this infrastructure >> is going to follow Santi's Santi's roadmap which is basically the tokens don't depre don't do particularly well but the business has actually gained a lot of adoption a lot of mind share >> um and I think DeFi I had the same thing happen but it happened last cycle. It happened four years ago like >> or even not not even quite four years ago but two two to three years ago where a lot of DeFi didn't really appreciate like over 2024ish we had this whole memecoin right like did really well and uh you know per did well hyperlquid did

well bitcoin did well but defi predominantly didn't really go up you know as a category very much >> but it did grow significantly in adoption we had you know lots more TVL get added. >> Uh, and >> stable coins really took off. Obviously, >> stable coin volume growth significant. Uh, and so, >> but it didn't really affect the bottom line. Like the prices of these tokens didn't really move. And so, >> in fact, they went down. >> Exactly. So, now >> they went down so much that like they're at the same prices or worse than 202021 when there was like not nearly as much happening.

Yes, there wasn't as much happening, but they again to get back to Arthur, the speculation of credit creation was significantly higher. I mean, it was off the back of COVID, tons of money printing, handing out stimulus checks, everyone going bananas, board apes were, you know, $4 million. And so, there was tons of credit in the system and tons of speculation. There was more credit. And so, that's why, you know, those tokens did particularly well back then. Now they've receded in token prices, but to your point, the adoption of these protocols has gone ballistic. And so now the the mean reversion is going to flip and go back the other way. And so I I I tend to agree here that you're going to end up doing the best by betting on the winners of the categories. Vance is attributing, you know, the the collapse

of VC dollars where we're not going to get a lot of copycats and people that are new entrance coming into each of these categories. You know, you you can say that's the reason or you can just point to the mean reversion. These coins didn't do well, but they had a lot of adoption. Now, they're going to mean revert and assume this greater token appreciation to keep up with the adoption levels that they had since 2020 2021. >> I think that's the take. All right, Vance. See you soon, man. Um, moving on from DeFi, I think we have some more a couple more just like key key points to rip through here. Um, some some news that we thought was particularly compelling. Quick market check-in 925 ETH 3245.

All right, let's move on from DeFi and VC investing golden age. Love the take um and get to the next uh next and probably final uh coverage of the show before our first guest comes on. >> X is the gold standard of the digital age. >> Boom. >> But thinking in [music] complex decimals isn't always practical. History News >> Tether Gold. >> The original Scudo coin was created [music] to trade with clarity, not confusion. So, we evolved. >> Introducing Scoo, a simpler way to measure gold. Unchained. One Scoo equals 1,000th of an X. [music]

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>> Like, I cannot believe that my gold stash outperformed a lot of other tokens and other pretty much most anything in my portfolio outside of Bitcoin and Coinbase stock. Insane. Insane. Like how how did I like I literally sold crypto, >> bought physical gold, vaulted it, haven't touched it in like three and a half years, and I tripled my money.

Like, how did that happen? I don't have a lot of I don't have a lot of thoughts on gold besides if it's the same debasement trade that applies to Bitcoin. It's all the same, >> you know. credit creation of more credit. All of this that applies to Bitcoin, applies to gold, but they're not going to mine an asteroid and find a bunch of Bitcoin. >> This video is insane. Um, but that's why I wanted to um buy uranium a couple weeks ago >> because it was like so it's just like the same exact thesis and trend. It's like any of these kind of more finite supply uh investment assets are going to just keep going up. Like it's very simple. Um

I don't think it's really that hard. We need tether copper. Yeah, it would be funny. So, do we long sats? What is it like 1 1,000th of a bitcoin? Yeah, I guess it's like this is more 1,000 of a gold but >> I don't think SATS is uh is uh is it sounds like more like a meme coin. So, >> what about uh >> I heard someone talk about palladium. >> About palladium. >> I I don't have any palladium, but it was running as well. >> It was running hard.

>> I just I mean, this is just an entirely different world. I I I like the idea of bringing these onchain becoming more efficient markets just like all other you know equities, bonds, derivatives, etc. >> Yeah. >> But as [clears throat] far as like you know where like what's the thesis here? Palladium versus copper I I'm totally out out of my league. >> Yeah. I I'm focusing on Neo finance. If if it's not neo finance, I'm not in on it. And look, I mean, tokenizing gold is NEO finance, but as far as like the segmentation between gold and copper and palladium, tokenize all of them.

Tokenize them all. Tokenize them all. They're all They're all digital assets. And up next, we've got Shervin Bick, the head of BD at Cisacic. We're going to be talking about hardware acceleration, ZK. Rob, take it easy on him. He's just a BD guy. Um, and yeah, we're going to learn. We're just going to get an update like what's going on. The these guys have a massive amount of hardware in China. Like I'm talking like warehouses and warehouses and warehouses of hardware for ZK proving. Same exact warehouses that are in demand for AI and for compute. So we're talk about verifiable compute. Uh talk about what's kind of the bigger trends happening out in the in the east in China. Um and just generally like what we're seeing out

there. So um I think it's Shervin's first time on the show. I also believe that Seisic had a big mainet launch. Um, so it was about a month ago they launched their compute fi era and that's kind of like their big that's like their big uh uh launch before the end of last year. Get an update there. But yeah, man. Um, I'm I'm super curious about this whole like uh what is happening with demand for compute, demand for energy in in China? How's it looking over there? So, yeah, pretty pretty stoked to to to have our guest here. Our first guest of 2026, man.

>> Salute. I've been pounding coffee today. It's 10:47 a.m. >> I haven't had coffee in four days. Been a little under the weather. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> But, uh I'm stoked. Uh first guest of 2026. >> Yeah, man. Um, and so yeah, I believe uh I I believe we met Shervin at an event. Might have been in Brussels. Um I think it was a Polychain event and uh he was fired up. We were fired up. So I'm excited to to reconnect with >> Somebody said tokenized peptides.

>> Gez, are are you What is this whole Chinese peptides thing? >> I don't know. But this was uh in the chat. Tokenized peptides. Who who who knows how that's gonna work. All right guys, we've got the head of BD at Cisic Shervin Beck. We've we got a big hardware acceleration going on out in the eastern part of the world out in China. The Cisakic team has launched their mainet uh like I said about three weeks ago. So big launch there. Uh we're going to talk hardware acceleration ZK what's going on with Cisic, the AI data center trade and more. So let's get Shervin up and get this party started.

Here we go. Hey guys, how are you guys doing? It's been a while. >> Yeah, we were just saying I think we we met you in Brussels or something quite quite a while ago. >> Yeah, I think I met you guys first there and then the last time I I saw Robbie at ETC can like a Crypto.com event. >> Um but yeah, it's definitely been a minute. How are you guys doing? >> Doing well, man. Happy New Year. Good to have you. >> Likewise. Likewise. Happy New Year's. >> Welcome on the show. guys calling in from?

>> I'm in Hawaii and I'm in Florida. >> Okay, cool. >> What What about you, man? >> Uh currently in Turkey in Estanul. Um >> it's definitely like has an interesting crypto scene here and like before this was in uh Dubai. We got residency there and I was trying to get another residency but in Turkey. >> Nice. >> Um but yeah, >> good to have you man. Well uh it's your first time on on the show serving. So would love to get just get just get a quick uh TLDDR on your background uh what you do at uh Cisak and just kind of like generally your interest and and what's drawn you into this crazy industry that we call crypto.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So pretty much uh I've been involved in crypto I'd say for almost around a decade now. Um feel kind of old now but so I got in through trading. Uh at the time I was on like the US in high school uh on a visa so I didn't have a social security number and wanted to trade stocks but I needed a social security number and Coinbase at the time didn't have KYC so I I sort of fell through the rabbit hole just through like trading like a lot of people and then uh I began working uh in the actual industry in 2022. So I had studied data science at Berkeley and in my final semester uh I was working like part-time as a contractor at now which is known as like Yi Labs but formerly Finance Labs.

Um after that uh uh had a failed attempt at building a music NFT marketplace with a few friends from Berkeley and just horrible timing. Plus, I guess that didn't really work out anyways. And I basically pivoted back into a venture, worked at ENT Capital, which was a fund backed by Ank Group. Uh, and then we invested in Cisacic, and once we like deployed the fund, I later joined Cisac as an early team member and pretty much lead everything on like the BG side. >> Beautiful. Well, dude, I'm super curious. I know you you guys have a ton of hardware in in China and in and a lot of the team is there and you guys are doing a lot of um like kind of like hardware acceleration for ZK. Um man,

what is that like out there? I I I assume you've been out there uh you know seen that you know met the team out there obviously seen the warehouses obviously we're in this mega AI bubble right where like everyone wants compute everyone wants hardware everyone wants to uh you know build these data centers um what's going on out there with Isis why do you guys have all of that compute what is that being used for give us a bit of the rundown for uh for the community here >> yeah I'd say our team is pretty decentralized we actually have a few of our hardware engineers in California and like our head of op, she lives in the US. Um, our marketing person lives in the US. Some of our engineers are in China, some are in the US. Um, but uh,

and then somewhere in Singapore. Um, but yeah, I mean, we just launched mainet um, and in our token we TG on like December 11th. Um, and uh, yeah, trading at around like 40 cents. uh since TG your token has like increased roughly about 150%. Uh in the last week alone 20% uh so around like 400 mil FTVish uh and today actually in fact was our highest day of trading volume which is around like 450 mil which basically is signaling like real liquidity and like interest from like external market participants like retail. Um, so it's not just listing, it's actually people trading it. I guess like sort of marks

uh like the point that like the market sees value and in comput and uh infrastructure being tokenized and and tradable >> and Shervin, give us a sense of what does what is compute fi like? What is this general category that you're talking about? So initially um when Seiscac was founded we were only a hardware company and and we've been building out like AS6 to accelerate zero knowledge proof generation but um there's still no full real ZK proving demand right I'd say like like an example of a project that actually has like a real ZK demand right now would be like lighter um but yeah I mean uh we we branched out and started doing stuff on like the hardware side I'd say like there's pretty much like five core pillars within seis you have seisic

network which is like the L1 blockchain that has like a prover network and like a proof verification layer uh like under the hood I guess you can think of it like a real-time ZK proof layer powered by uh like customuilt hardware that like accelerates EKP's uh like obviously unmatched speed and and cost efficient and then you asked what compute is so comput is essentially like the the concept of like tokenizing GPUs A6 and like other high performance hardware um so anyone like anywhere can access and trade compute for ZK and like AI workloads. Essentially, it's like establishing um compute as a financial primitive, right? Which which is quite interesting. So, Cisic lets anyone own a

slice of like the compute layer by basically tokenizing chips, rigs, and GPUs and making compute an asset liquid tradable uh and yield generating. And then there's like the hardware component of size. So we have like a GPU CUDA acceleration library on top of GPUs. We could do that and then in the future we'll have like ZK Air and ZK Pro. So ZK is essentially the size of like a MacBook charger which would be used primarily for like client side proving. Um and then ZK Pro is the size of like a Bitcoin miner more performant and server side proving. Uh and then we also have our Dodgebox one which we've uh uh

announced a few months back. It's it's portable like ultra low power like dodgecoin miner securing both like L1 mining and like L2 verification. And currently we verify those proofs in size network. It's sort of like think of it as like the Raspberry Pi of Dodgecoin. Um so we're uh pretty excited about all of that. And then you have Seis AI which is like basically extending infrastructure capabilities to like AI compute whether it's ranging from like agents to inferrints and training and so on. Uh so compute could be used for like ZK and and AI and in general.

>> Yeah man. And I mean we we've seen this um we've seen this uh like ZK trade happen or ZK narrative just like develop so much from just compute just the idea of um you know we're going to verifiably bring data offchain onchain okay now we're we're going to do zk proofs for uh interrupt between L2s okay now we're going to do it for perexes as you're saying okay now Ethereum L1 is going to have a zkm okay now we're gonna just, you know, it's gotten so effective and efficient that we're going to be able to bring it all the way down, uh, you know, from the cost perspective and the speed perspective, increase the performance.

And so, we've just kind of like had this massive shift in perception about ZK as well as just in the way that it's being used in actual onchain environments. And so, you guys, you know, you guys have brought out this ZK Air and ZK Pro. You even introduced these purpose-built A6 for proving. And so this is part of that unlock, right? This is part of that breakthrough in speed or efficiency that these chips unlock, you know, that the traditional GPU can't deliver. Maybe you could tell us a bit more about like what these chips do, how like what the difference between a GPU is today and like what the what these uh kind of like purpose-built AS6 do. I feel like our audience probably has an understanding

of AS6 from like OG Bitcoin mining u but not necessarily for like ZK proving. Yeah, I mean I guess like on the GPU standpoint, I guess you could sort of think of a a GPU as like sort of like sort of like a talented like generalist, right? It's like good at many things like graphics or AI or like video editing. Uh but our AS6 that we're building are specialized and customuilt to accelerate uh one thing only and that being uh ZKPs. Um and like for the audience like is like what is ZK? like it's essentially like a cryptographic protocol that basically allows you to prove a statement is true without revealing uh any information beyond the statement itself, right? And like an

example uh that I like to give is like like people know the game like where's Waldo where you like search for the guy in like the striped shirt, right? Um and let's say you found him and you want to prove it to your friend but you don't want to like spoil it for them. So what you could do is like take like a big piece of cardboard and cut a tiny hole in it just big enough to see so so you see like one person and put that cardboard over uh the page so like the hole shows exactly like where Waldo is, right? And then your friend looks through that hole and sees Waldo clearly. But before they can figure out where he is on the page, you pull the cardboard away. Done. Right? and you just proved uh you found Waldo without revealing his location and your

basically your friend at that point is convinced you know where he is, but they still have to search for him themselves. Um but uh yeah, I mean there's a lot of definitely like uh future use cases and and implications for ZK. >> So So these these AS6 are like very specialized hardware mach like boxes, right? Like computers. Yeah, I mean ZK Air again is like the size of like a MacBook charger. I have one plugged in right now charging my Mac. Um and then ZK Pro which is primarily for server server side proving and more performant um is uh >> sort of the size of like a Bitcoin machine but then again like we won't do the tape out for our chips um until like we think the space has matured and I

think uh we're getting closer and closer right um like even athereum's co-founder Vitalic right highlighted that like ZKVMs are like now in like a production quality like alpha date, right? And like there's anticipation of like uh ZKVM nodes emerging from like 2026 onward, right? And it's it's a structural shift, right? In in how Ethereum itself processes and is building for and again like protocols like lighter, as I mentioned earlier, which is like a rollup focused on like verifiable uh high performance trading uh pretty much demonstrated like a concrete compute demand use case since they're using custom ZK circuits and they just open sourced their circuits. Um so these like Zika ecosystems are already like

absorbing compute uh resources at scale. Yeah. And as their adoption grows um uh so does demand for verifiable compute networks like Cisakic. In addition to the ZK demand part, right like AI training and in inference also demands like huge computing resources. Um u and every AI companies are now flashing out like new AI models, agents uh which which demand huge computing resources and all of these are important signals for compute demand.

>> Yeah. And uh so so you guys have like these these machines. Some of them are as small as a MacBook charger. Some other ones are a little bit bigger. I would estimate you guys have what thousands maybe millions. >> So we haven't done the tape out for our ZK and ZK Pro because again it's like capital intensive and once you do that you better make sure like this there's real ZK proving demand. I think Starkifies their L1 >> and the the tape out is like actually turning on the machines, buying them, putting them in in the warehouse, >> basically manufacturing the chips and producing them at scale and uh and and basically once you do that you can't >> can't go back. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Back no control Z command. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um but I mean at the moment that's why we we basically have a CUDA acceleration library that can be used uh utilized on top of GPUs to accelerate proofs but we've kept that closed sourced uh and uh manual source it in the in the near future >> but you guys started shipping these portable miners right >> so that was our Dodgebox one >> right okay cool >> Dodgebox one essentially again it's portable ultra low power dodgecoin miner and it secures both like the Dodgecoin L1 and then we verify those proofs on like Seisic Network and and it's a way to like uh get the Dodgecoin community like involved and pretty much make them aware of of uh what ZK is. Um and uh

again sort of like the Raspberry Pi of >> and and you kind of had like a little bit of an unexpected breakthrough, right, with with some of these portable miners. >> Yeah, I mean we we've sold out quite a lot. Um and uh you'll start seeing more news. We're we're working with uh can't name them yet, but a layer 2 on Dodgecoin and uh they're utilizing ZK. So, it's going to be interesting to see where that collaboration goes. >> There's not there's not many layer twos on Dogecoin. So, our users might be able to sniff that one out. But and and so, okay, so you know that you you guys are ultimately you're going to tape out these machines. You've already sort of tested this out with Dogecoin. And so as this plays out,

the machines like anyone can go and visit them, right? They're in they're going to be, you know, in essentially one of the data centers that we hear so much about. >> You'll be able to like order it online like the same way you can order like a bit main minor. You can you can basically uh order a Cisic ZK or ZK Pro. Um and uh >> so as as you know ahead of BD at Cisic, who are your main customers? Are are they mainly, you know, businesses, roll-ups that are looking to ZK, verify their own chains? Are they going to be ordering, you know, the the devices themselves, or will they stay in the warehouse and they'll, you know, they'll rent them out from you? Uh, yeah. Who who are your main customers and what do

some of these deals look like? >> Yeah, I mean, I I'd say like there's like a few different angles to it, right? I mean, like in the Bitcoin industry, sure you have like Bitcoin mining farms, which are like companies just with tons of Bitcoin miners mining Bitcoin, helping secure the blockchain. Um, and then you also have like retail users that buy that hardware to like mine Bitcoin. Uh, so it's sort of the same thing at Isis. Um, in the future, like both like I'm sure there's going to be like large companies that maybe are validators for ETH that might get into mining. like a lot of Bitcoin miners didn't enter like the validator space for Ethereum and I think they're eyeing the ZK space pretty closely and and and once there's like actual ZK proving

demand and and once you see these uh ZK miners um uh I think that's when uh the ball will start to get rolling. >> Yeah. Is there any other like I I'd imagine that a lot of the Bitcoin miners now and you're you're probably like I'm sure they are looking at not only you know mining uh or validating Ethereum but also uh you know verifying and proving ZK proofs. How much of that is are they using their own existing infrastructure and their own existing hardware trying to repurpose what they've already have that that they already have mining Bitcoin versus going out buying new GPUs or new AS6 and applying those uh to ZK proofs?

>> I mean it's possible, right? You you could utilize like a CUDA acceleration library on top of a GPU and and start accelerating proofs. Um and there's there's various different like prover networks, right? uh like we've had like collaborations like with like scroll in the past and like succinct and like um all of them are converging sort of like on the same like architectural like vision uh to make like the idea of like instant proofs a reality right and they all are sort of implementing like GPU clusters and I don't know formal verification or open source like rust tooling um uh and prover networks like ours um and that I think that milestone right like it makes like instant proofs

uh potentially like standard in in 2026. Uh and it's when that stack tech stack becomes like invisible, right? It's like right now you're integrating a prover and it's like complex engineering work. Uh uh but all of us are are working towards making it as simple as connecting to the internet, right? it'll be invisible a reliable service um that just works and and when the proving is both like fast enough and easy enough to be uh taken for granted then that's when I guess like instant becomes the standard right >> yeah definitely yeah I mean those teams were pretty familiar with them both and um ris as as well and just it seems like there's this collaborative effort with the with the zk companies really coming

together especially for Ethereum L1 it is interesting how Ethereum is going to have to choose one kind of like ZK EVM or ZKVM to kind of use could use like this multiple you know at you know we had Dankrite on he was talking about how there's going to be like this approach of using many ZKVMs but then it's going to kind of get windowed down into just uh you know probably one um at at some point based on on the road map. Um so I think I think that's interesting. I was looking like and if you think about AI, AI is just consistently getting better and better and stronger and stronger, but also like it's just more and more opaque. Like there's just there's just not like we, you know, Near.AI just came out with this private chat product which

is absolutely epic. And like other than that, everything else in the AI world that we've seen, even in crypto or in um you know, traditional AI is all just like a black box. And so it seems like like seisexic verifiable compute layer >> or just kind of like this general idea of like bringing this like uh verifiable computation to the AI sector as well kind of how how we started this conversation um can actually give people confidence about models about training about input data about all these types of things too.

>> No. Yeah. No 100%. I mean we we basically uh uh provide a way to get like a cryptographic receipt like for the computation, right? Uh and for some models we can generate a proof such as a zk snark that guarantees that model AI model ran correctly, right? And and for for some others uh you could use like a system of like checks and balances and and and multiple pro providers can like run the same task independently uh and then the network checks uh their answers against each other. Uh, and it it replaces trust us with like a system designed for like verification. Um, >> yeah. Yeah, man. Well, you know, coming to a close here, what's what's up next

for Seis? What's kind of your main focuses from the BD perspective? Um, what are the product updates that you're looking forward to? Kind of where's your head at for Q1 here? >> Yeah, I mean, I'd say like I'm hoping to see an increase in proving demand. I mean I think lighter has killed it. Um and I think the next major unlock for ZK compute is just demand right in the past years like uh like like ZK tech is like ZK tech has converged into like like near like optimal like ZK proving backends uh and like I don't know different proof size and like verification costs and in my opinion I think the ZK techniques are like now mature not only for like the blockchain community but also for like traditional enterprises uh in the world um and again

like ZK's existence since like the 80s. It's it's nothing new. It's just now becoming more and more relevant. And and some examples would be like verifiable AI inference training. I don't know ZKTLS for like data sourcing or even ZK uh services within like the financial sector, right? Like proof of reserves, right? Like um back in the day I my money was on Cryptopia. I don't know if you guys remember that exchange. >> It got hacked. Sorry, bro. >> File for bankruptcy. I honestly don't know what happened, but um yeah, I mean, yeah, it's definitely going to be cool to see like new ZK use cases come out.

>> Yeah, man. >> Oh, yeah. Proof of reserves would have been really useful for Cryptopia. I also I still get the emails to this day. >> Yeah, same. >> Shervin, last question. Last question for you. Um I noticed the token is only live on Binance Chain and Bass. Is that right? or what what was the logic behind that decision? >> Yes. So, it's uh it's on Binance Smart Chain and and and based and uh there's also like a few exchanges where you can trade like futures or spot um so like there's also liquidity on like BitGat, Gate, Kcoin, Mexi, uh Bitmark, Albank and then uh uh yeah, Pancake Swap and >> why why those chains? Why Binance Smart

Chain and and Base? Uh well we we went with Binance Alpha right uh and uh as part of that uh I mean we don't have spot um and uh we saw what a few of our competitors how they targeted their listings and we were thinking like how could we do it better and so far I think our decisions have definitely uh been for for the best for our community and and for the long-term growth uh for Cisac um and and just in less than a month, right? We're uh less than above like 150%.

>> Yeah, man. >> Very cool. Congrats, >> Shervin, head of BDS, Isaac, man. Have a great Q1. Hope it's strong for you guys. Thanks for >> Yeah. Happy New Year. Thanks for joining us today, man. >> Have a great day, guys. Cheers, buddy. >> See you again soon. >> Byebye. >> Cheers, Shervin. >> Man, oh man. The ZK trade continues. Rollup TV, Tuesday, January 6. First episode of the year. Shervin's out. ZK's in. I see a a snorkeler looking for fish. There's a lot of spear fishing men uh spear fishing going on out here in Hawaii right now. It's a beautiful day.

Um got a lot of work to do, Rob. Um fun show today. >> What you got going this afternoon? You're doing some snorkeling, surfing. >> I'm gonna go write an article. >> All right, I'll leave you to it, Andy. Great show. Pleasure as always. Uh we're going to have some fun this year, aren't we? >> I think we are, man. Um, it's going to be a good year. It's going to be a good year. I think uh I I I'm I'm not I'm not putting too much focus on week one of price action or week one of vibes. I think it's just everyone's kind of getting back into the flow today. Even today, just on the show, getting reset up, getting into the swing of things.

But we're going to come out swinging this year. So guys, we'll see you tomorrow. Uh we're going to be going live a little bit later around that 2:30 Eastern time or so uh for the foreseeable future. I'm in Hawaii. It's early morning here uh later in the afternoon over there in Florida. So guys, we'll see you tomorrow and mahalo. >> Cheers. >> Aloha. >> Bye. [music]