VDAO Ep.6 Everyday Resilience Building Anti-Fragility in Suburbia with Gardner

Transcript

when the Terminator comes, like what are you gonna do? You know, like you know, social unrest or uh natural disasters and things like that. Like I do think that this in the back of people's minds, but like they don't know like economic collapse like they don't know when these things are coming and they don't have a motivation to act now because they're like, well, the power is still on. >> I think there can be a sense that with self- sovereignty or resilience, it means that you have to go like totally off the grid. if they're going to like live in the woods in a year and like be completely on your own and that only then will you be sovereign. Should I be building a bunker? Like should I be digging like down instead of out you know? So like these things do cross your

mind but at the same time like well if you are going to go down that path like now you know how much dirt you actually need to dig out in order to like do something like that and it's like inconceivable that I would even you know consider something like that. And of course in suburbia there's all sorts of regulations and rules that like you probably can't do that. >> Hey Gardner, good to see you man. >> Great to see you. This is fun. Yeah, I'm excited for this conversation and uh as you know, every time we have a new guest on here, um we kind of give them an opportunity to talk a bit about their why and their motivations as a

builder in the network state space and the crypto space. And I just want to give you the opportunity to like what is your what is your why? What motivates you as a builder? >> I've always been fascinated by the future. I think it's important to be living in the present of course as much as possible but the what if is intoxicating and to me it's a question of what if we could do better.

And it's not necessarily for me. I think that's great, but it's for a wider community. It's for the greater good. It's for the next generation. And that's what's important to me. >> Yeah. So, trying to trying to build a better future. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. and trying to figure out ways that we can build upon the past and make something that is as functional as possible for as many people as possible and people don't rely so much on fragile nodes and can build at a local level through

relationships and build at a local level through aligned incentives and goals. >> You're a founder in tech, right? Like your your background is in uh building crypto products and tech products, but you also have this interest in in resilience too, right? Like in your your everyday life. And I'm wondering if you could kind of talk to us a bit about that, like why as a tech founder is resilience important to you? >> Yeah, I I was drawn to the crypto space a long time ago.

for the resiliency, for the self- sovereignty, for the individuality, but also again going back to that concept of being able to have aligned goals and incentives where everybody is an individual within the network, but everybody also has a shared goal for the values of why we're showing up to this particular type of tech stack. and that kind of URL solidarity and that kind of URL awareness and when you go into a room at, you know, a web 3 event, you kind of know that everybody's there for the right reasons, the same reasons on balance. And the same thing is true

in the IRL side of things. If you can find your tribe, you know, I always say your vibe finds your tribe. And I think this is something that I've been looking for um for a long time that combines both the IRL and the URL. And VO is really one of those um one of those places, one of those oasis that I can understand that we're coordinating online, but we are doing things IRL that align with our values. And sometimes that's not necessarily what I find in the tech space in

general, you know, like um the issues around water conservancy and how that interacts or how that um creates perhaps problems in both the perception of technology and the action of every time you know you're using an LLM, how much water that's taking up and things like that like sometimes these things aren't aligned and I think VOW is one of those places where we are doing whatever we can both IRL and URL um to make sure that the future is a place that we can thrive both for our communities and for the next generation. And you mentioned

like self- sovereignty there, but also like I'm hearing this theme of like community and it sounds like from what you're saying like you you you don't see those two things as opposites, right? You describe like a self-s sovereignty but also being part of a community. How do you uh kind of make sense of that like the relationship between you as a self-s sovereign person or if you're crypto and your personal resilience but also being part of a bigger community. >> Yeah. I mean I think the all for one one for all sort of thing is like an interesting concept where um you are really relying on yourself um to

create security and you know that can be security can be defined a number of ways. This could be you know like food security, water security, um shelter. It could also be like technical security where you know you need um electricity, you need um the ability to hold your own assets, you need the ability to transact with others freely. There's a lot of kind of what security kind of can be defined as. Um but ensuring that you have a sense of that responsibility to yourself first. It's kind of like the concept, you know, we we talk about this in my home as well around the kind of airline mask, right?

Like put on your mask first um before you help others. Like I think that's really important to kind of get your house in order like literally and figuratively in order to ensure that you are in a position and a strong foundation where you can assist and you you have the knowledge of how you can inspire others perhaps. So I think that that is the first element in terms of being antifragile um is being self- sovereign and then being able to coordinate with others. Uh because you can't always have, you know, resources that are generated singularly, right? like uh we could talk

a little bit about what I've done recently in kind of rebuilding um our property and um ensuring that I am first doing the things that I need to do to prepare the land but then you are able to socialize that information where people are like oh hey I heard gardener doing this and somebody's like oh hey I have these things that we don't need or uh they could use um and whether that is tools or whether that is materials Um that's you know I think a combination of the all for one one for all sort of mentality is like once you start building those relationships and creating those connections then you also have a recognition that you know someone

helped you and you can help them and this is nothing new I mean this is how our civilization was built but um it's really being conscious of it and making sure that you can generate uh that vision of what you want um in for the next generation in a way that um is foundationally relevant today. I don't know. I feel like I kind of uh answered your question. I'm entirely unprepared for this conversation, by the way.

>> Like uh Chris and I just like got on just like 10 minutes ago and I was like, "What are we talking about?" Uh but but Chris noted that that is kind of how we should be doing these things. It should all be entirely organic. So I'm I'm coming totally unprepared for this. But it's also fun in that way. >> Yeah. But you you really I think you are hitting such an important point like this building civilizations, right? like it it it's based around reciprocity but also an individual's capacity their individual capacity to meet their own needs within that system as well right like what you described there is with that metaphor of putting your own mask on first like you're kind of making sure

your needs are met making sure you're resilient and antifragile in your own family and your own kind of small node within a bigger community and then taking that knowledge out they are sharing it and getting kind of other things in return that you can't kind of uh generate yourself and and or or like whether it's tools or food or whatever like that's how civilization was built as you as you said and I think the reason I I I wanted to uh kind of touch on that is that I think there can be a sense that with self- sovereignty or resilience it means that you have to go like totally off the grid. if they're going to like live in the woods in a year and like be

completely on your own and that only then will you be sovereign. But what you're describing is actually kind of normal and like it's a normal everyday kind of thing to it's something I I I think we should expect to have that level of resilience, right? >> Yeah. I think it is challenging though and and it is a step brick by brick step by step sort of challenge where it's been a few years um that I've really wanted to become more independent um physically um and digitally as well but like we'll talk maybe a little more about physically um in a suburban area

right like I am in a suburban area I am not off the grid I am not in in the woods as much as I love to imagine and every time I go on a drive I'm like pointing out raw land and my wife's like do you have any idea how hard it is to work raw land like this is a fantasy um and the amount of time that I have uh you know running a company is like yeah that's not going to happen right now but I I think that it is uh something that I want to get towards but coming back to kind of the suburban location in a geographic region is challenging to be self- sovereign, right? Like you do rely on the municipal water system, you do rely on um the grid to some degree. Um

even though we are taking steps, you know, day by day, month by month, year by year to become more independent. For instance, you know, a water catchment was something that I that I installed last year with the inspiration of Vow and the the community. um I you know wanted to figure out a way that I could harvest rainwater and there's twofold reasons for that. One is to irrigate a garden to grow our own food and the other is just a responsibility to for instance we have a pool and like to some degree like I feel guilty about having a pool like because it's not the best uh use of resources um to to you know swim

in uh portable water as opposed to like a pond or a lake. However, it was also a conscious choice to purchase a property with a pool should we ever have an emergency situation where we would actually need to have a reservoir and we could, you know, try to build a sistern or something like that, but like again, we're in suburban property, like, you know, there's not a huge footprint. Um, and so that was that was something that we did consciously. Um, but now I'm also like, well, the the water evaporates every summer to some degree, and I have to put portable water back into the pool just with a hose. And I think that's irresponsible. So, having a water catchment serves two purposes, and that

is to grow our own food, and that is to put water back into the pool. Um, so, you know, I I kind of feel better about that. Like, so there's like an emotional element to it as well. Um, and yeah, so you know, that's one of the steps that we've taken and we've we've taken a few more and we could talk about some of those things, but I think it's really important for people to recognize that like you can do little things that if everybody did would make a huge difference. Um, now we haven't gotten to the point where we're using the water catchments to like do our, you know, load of laundry and things like that.

Like a huge water waste. Like that would be amazing if we were able to do those things. Um, but we're we're taking steps towards that direction. Yeah. And how did you find the process of kind of learning about uh can it it's rainwater harvesting that you're doing, right? Like how's Yeah. How was it learning about that stuff and how was the process? >> The first thing that was shocking was how much water you can actually catch. Like I did not know how quickly a 300galon tank can get filled with one or two storms. and with the extreme amount of uh intensity that recently we're

having and I'm in California um that there is like I was talking with a neighbor today it was like there's no snow up in the mountains right now and we were like but by New Year's there might be like a huge amount of snow like that's what's happened in the past where it's like they just like comes in these huge waves so that was something that was surprising for me to recognize the amount of, you know, atmospheric rivers that you're able to just put a straw in and fill up a giant uh uh amount within a very short amount of time. And it was an experiment really to be like, well, I don't know how long it's going to maybe it might take all winter to fill this

up. And it was like two storms and we were like, oh my god, like what do we do now? like and so we didn't even use the water for a long period of time and so that was something that I learned from the process >> collecting that off like off your roof. So the water goes in like off your roof into the into tanks or is it just going through like through the like how how do you collect it? So that is the traditional way of doing it. And the only thing that you really have to be aware of is like wait till the first rain goes through because there's a lot of like bird excrement and things like that that might be on your roof and make sure your gutters are like fairly clean and make sure that you have like a civ system to like get all the like large

impurities out. There is, you know, a bunch of great videos uh that uh have been put out by by Vau and um Verge um permaculture and and Rob and all that like talking about some of these things. Um but um you can also, you know, get a good sense of some of this stuff um in in in all sorts of forms. But uh the the like slime line I learned, you know, about in terms of like the actual um resiliency and resistance that nature has in terms of taking out impurities.

And like let me get to the end point, which is like I thought it was going to just like be a complete algae bloom that occurred in these uh because I also have a 50-gallon barrel. Uh and I was amazed to find out I didn't have to treat the water at all. Um, and that was like another big learning thing for me. Um, so those are some of the things that I learned from just kind of doing and and and and researching of course, but like then when you actually do it, you're like, "Oh, wow." Like that that's true, you know? Like I didn't believe it to be true. I thought I was going to have to put like chlorine in the in the tanks or something like or like a small amount, you know, that wouldn't like actually be dilitterious to the the uh flora

afterwards. >> Are are you living in a drought area? like is this it it Yeah. So is that something that was kind of on your mind when it come when it came to the question about resilience that you know droughts are happening, droughts are increasing and then you took this action by trying to find ways of kind of consolidating your or or kind of increasing your capacity to bring water into your system whether it's like for uh your pool or for growing your food. Um, and that's like you're you're not drinking that water, but it's increasing the overall resilience of your home.

>> Correct. And it also really inspired me to start hardscaping things as well because then it's like, well, if I'm going to catch X amount of water on an annual basis, then I only have Y amount of coverage really to plant. Um, and so I either increase my capacity to catch the water or I decrease the requirement for the land that needs to be watered. So for instance, we had a large kind of like 23 by7 patch that like when we first got the place it was grass like it was beautiful grass too. they had done like a great job and over time like I kind of reduced the watering of it because it was like well it's just grass you know it's like nice like I'm just

let it regrow in the winter time and then not water it as much during the summer and then like over time and I'm not enriching it with like fertilizers which is another thing that I learned like but like I also was like but it's just grass I don't really want to enrich it like I want to use the fertilizer for the planting beds that we have um for fruits and vegetables and herbs and things and So then I slowly just kind of reduced it to the point where like it just kind of wasn't growing back in the summer. And then we we got a dog and the dog started to chew up irrigation lines and I was just like forget it, you know, like I can't be out there policing this puppy. It's too adorable also. And so we kind of just let things go to some

degree and then it was kind of a perfect timing to be like, "All right, let's reimagine this entirely." So like I like tore up all the dirt, this whole dirt patch, which is like clay soil, too. So it's like super hard. And I had to like rent a tiller and like like just hand shovel all of like just thousands of pounds of dirt out from this yard in order to reduce. And that was another thing that was like really important just by doing was like once you like destroy something, you have to figure out a way to like make it better. It's like a great forcing function to be like just like go out and like tear your that that that sandbox up, you tear that um that planter box up that like has just been sitting there gathering weeds or like whatever it is like and it'll it'll

force you to make it better. Um so like sitting around and being like I'll get to it next week is just like just go do it. And like sometimes in that destruction like you are able to force yourself to create something. And once I started that process, uh, it was arduous, I will say, because it took way longer than I anticipated. Always like double the timeline that you think it's going to take to like do something. So, just like always be aware of that. And that's just like a con a construction, you know, wisdom there that everybody knows. But like it really became very clear. And so when I started to do that, it really was like a reimagining of like, okay, now that I've like torn all

this dirt up and I have a giant mound of dirt in my driveway now because we didn't have anywhere else to put it. What am I going to do with it? And I hoped that people were going to take it. I put it on, you know, all the posts of like free free soil, free dirt. Um, and nobody came and got it, which was like a big eye openener. I was like, "Oh, this is going to happen." But then I also used those platforms to get other resources like because I had to build a French drain for drainage in terms of like when there was like a huge downpour because we do have clay soil then I had to get other soil to enrich uh and put back in and I had to get like put layers of of rocks and gravel in order for the

soil to drain properly into the French drains and things like that. Um, anyway, it was a long process, but like I got most of th those resources for free or for very low cost by just upycling. And that was really valuable to to recognize also that there are people that are total strangers that are around that are just trying to unload stuff. Like we got tons of rocks, which if you ever purchase rocks, it's like I understand why rocks are expensive, but like this is crazy that like rocks are this expensive. So, there's a bunch of people that are always redoing their yards and things like that. So, like I think it's really important to recognize that like these resources are available to you.

Either you're patient and you wait for just the right thing or you recognize how you can like be inspired by the limiting factor of what resources you have um at your disposal. So, for instance, like we got these like a bunch of different rocks and things like that that weren't necessarily what the rocks that we would choose if we were going to, you know, a landscaping store and like purchasing things. But then it was like, oh, this is cool. Like, we could do this over here and like these rocks don't look like those rocks, but we could like crop them like in kind of a natural way over here. Anyway, I feel like I'm kind of rambling on, but like this is the experience that I've had quite recently, and so it's like pretty fresh.

>> That's super interesting, man. And I think what I love is that you're doing all this in a suburban area. And it's just a a a kind of testament to the fact that you don't need to go and get a big farm if you want to become more resilient. You know, you can really you can start in a steady slow stepby-step way. And as you said, if if the majority of people in suburbia in suburban areas were doing this kind of thing, it would have a dramatic effect. like so much of suburban properties right now are just laid to lawn right across America.

There's a massive area of growing potential um that opens up if people kind of make that shift in terms of their mindset. >> Yeah. And in terms of mindset around what you are growing, this is something that I was inspired by Vita as well was a food forest. And I had never even heard of that concept prior. And then it like every time we go get a plant or even look at a plant or like consider a plant for our yard, it's like, well, is it drought tolerant? Is it native? And is it edible? And that last one is like become super important to me. It's like even the ground cover that we're using, we're using thyme and um a I can't

remember what kind of mint it is. It's not like the classic mint that you think of. It's like it's like a uh it's like a mojito mint or something like that, but it's not what it's called. It's something like that, but like it's not what you would find in, you know, a beverage like that, but it's a ground cover that is edible. Um, and so all the decorative plants that we have, like I just uh planted a bunch of cauliflower and a bunch of fava beans and things like that for kind of different reasons. Of course, the fava beans putting nitrogen back in the soil. Um, but also like it doesn't necessarily sometimes even matter what the plant is. Like it's just like it's a plant there and it's green and maybe it blossoms and it looks beautiful at a certain time of year, but

like surrounding yourself by that greenery which is also edible I think is one of those things where like people put so many types of plants in their yard that are just decorative. It's like well why don't you put decorative plants in that are also edible that you can use? Um, and you could give, you know, sprigs of time to a neighbor or something like that. Even if you don't know, like we have a ton now that like I I built like a a patio with flag stone and blue stone that again upcycled from neighbors literally walking by being like, what are you doing? And I was like, I'm rebuilding my backyard and I'm not quite sure how I'm going to do it yet. And they were like, well, we got a bunch of stones that are like just sitting in our yard. You want to come

get them? And like I was like, yeah. And like that ended up being like the basis for our entire patio. And then I was like, well, let's line this patio with some ground cover. And it was like time. There's like different types of time. There's we used elephant time and woolly time. But anyway, um the point being that like once you start doing this, then you get inspired by those around you and then you start to it's kind of like, you know, the 140 characters thing. It's like this these constraints really make you be creative. But if you ha you have to have these kind of expectations of what is valuable to you.

And again the inspiration of a resiliency community and the the inspiration of the veto community is like put in as much edible stuff as you can. Like even if you're not going to eat all of it. I'm not going to eat all the time, you know? Like it's great. >> Yeah. There's not like a huge amount of like there's not that many memes in permaculture, but one of them is that like growing your own food is like printing money. You're basically like you're just generating this yield.

Again, we talk about a lot. We talk about yield in crypto, right? But when you have a productive garden, especially if you've got perennials and you've got rain more harvesting, you've got edible like a food forest in your garden that's beautiful to look at and aesthetically pleasing, but you can also just eat it. That's like that's a good feeling, right? >> Yeah. And if you have kids >> Yeah. If you have kids, the the value of that is incredible because then they also it's not just the value of like being able to go out to your garden and just like pull something off the vine and eat it. Um, that's beautiful, but also the value of time. Like recognizing that it takes time to build things and

grow things, especially in this period that we live in where everything is instantaneous and will be just increasing in the speed of satisfaction that people get from whatever uh they're scrolling or you know whatever query they're putting in to write their essays or you know whatever it is that is something that I think that slow as fast is important to recognize that like you get more from going slow sometimes. And I think that's something that people really can understand when they start viscerally like putting their hands in the soil and then waiting and watching being like, "Ah, I'm testing myself by

like shouting at these plants to grow because that's not going to work." Like I have to be calm and cool and like recognize that like these things take time. And I think that's really important in terms of the next generation recognizing that you have to do things slowly in order to build for the long term sometimes. You strike me as like a traditional tech founder, right? Like that's your you you're you're like super optimistic. You're super like vibrant and excited about life and you're like building and you're you're like loving life. You don't seem to be someone that's sitting like you don't seem like a doomer like it doesn't seem like you're you're worried that uh you know you need like

civilization is going to collapse tomorrow and yet you're here you are like building resilience and the way what you describe is like you're getting direct benefits does it's not just an insurance policy right it's like you're actually adding value to your life it's if you've got kids or if you've got family it's like it's a whole kind of different lifestyle in a way when you start introducing the resilience, the insurance element, but also just like building it and enjoying it and participating, getting closer to nature in that way.

>> Yeah. I think that one thing to recognize is it's none of this is easy, right? Like this sounds like fun and optimistic and joyful and joyous and of course there are those elements but like this was a nights and weekend project for me for the past 3 months and it was really hard like and and it's also not just hard like physically and mentally and like taking up time in your head of like oh what's my next step and like trying to piece these things together in kind of a product management flow which is very similar to software development where it's like I could have created a conbon board for all the things that I need to do and the priorities ities and like what needed to go first and how I needed to do this thing before that thing.

Sure. And that's like racing through my head at like 4 in the morning when you kind of like wake up thinking like, "Oh no, I didn't do this and I need to do that first before the rains come and it gets all muddy or like whatever it is." I think it's also really important to recognize the sacrifices that come along with these sorts of things, whether you're building software or whether you're building something, you know, IRL, is that like I sacrificed time with my family on the weekends. I sacrificed, you know, um, helping out with dinner or something like that because like I knew that I needed to do this thing in order like the forcing function that I just mentioned like the rain was coming like there was like a huge storm that was coming and I had to like get all of these things lined up and out of the the

the rainfall and like make sure that uh these stones were in place, yada yada. There's like so many different variables that come along with it, but like it really was hard for me and it was almost conflicting for me to be like on the weekends I'm not really as present as a father and spending time with my family because I'm I'm doing something for this goal. And then literally this weekend is when we finished it off and like put like a fire pit in and everything and it was like had some friends over and like broke it in. Like my family was just like this was so worth it, you know?

Like of course I was like all of that effort was totally worth it. But it's not for the end of the world. It's not like the bunker and then then you know the the bomb drops and you're like oh cool like we made it in the bunker. This was totally worth the sacrifice. Maybe that is your extreme, you know, like but for me it's like starting with like let's just plant some arugula because we like arugula in our eggs in the morning, you know, like it's like these little things. But at the same time, I am a realist in the fact that like I don't know if I'm doing enough. Like I don't know if like ironically like I had that mound of dirt in my backyard or in my front yard in in the driveway. Um and people were like, "What are you doing?"

And I like joked like, "Oh, I'm digging out a bunker." because like literally it was like it was 20 by 20 footprint of dirt that was like four feet high. Like it looked like I had dug out a and and realistically like it wasn't a I didn't go too deep but like once you dig a foot down and you know like a 23 by7 footprint like it's a lot of soil. Like that was another thing like a neighbor asked me prior to like starting this he was like what are you going to do with all the soil? And I was like, "Oh, I'll just put in the planter boxes." Like I need to fill up the planter boxes. And like it was like I had no idea how much soil we were going to end up with. So things that you learn along the way. But

point being like I also in the back of my mind was like wait should I be building a bunker? Like should I be digging like down instead of out you know? So like these things do cross your mind but at the same time like well if you are going to go down that path like now you know how much dirt you actually need to dig out in order to like do something like that and it's like inconceivable that I would even you know consider something like that. And of course in suburbia there's all sorts of regulations and rules that like you probably can't do that. But it was like a good learning experience to be like, "All right, I know how much effort is just to put a patio in now and hardcape and plant some plants that are both edible and decorative. But now, what if

I really wanted to level this up? Now I know the effort it is to kind of get started. So what is the next level that I'm that I want to go to? and what is the reality that I need to be aware of in terms of the sacrifices of time, effort, and capital that I'm going to make in order to get to the next level. So I think that just the general kind of advice for anyone if this is even an advice sort of conversation I guess that we are broadcasting this to some degree if people are listening and care to learn like you got to start and you got to be aware and the only way to know is to go and so you have to start making things and you have to start doing

things and you can't just sit there ruminating about how bad the world is or what's going wrong in the world. It's like just take your little plot, whatever you have, whether it's a a balcony in an apartment building or whether it's the land that you have in and around uh a property or whether you have a ton of land, like start with a small amount that you can manage first and understand what it takes to make something work. And I think the same thing is true in software development, too. Just got to start with an MVP.

>> I love it. And I love that you touched upon like the the reality on the ground of actually delivering on a project like this cuz I can totally relate to that. Like there you watch YouTube videos, they're like 4 minutes long and like someone's just like going from A to B and it just looks amazing. You're like, "Oh, I could do that." Then when you actually like go through the process, there's all these other steps and all these other like interconnected decisions and all the complications. And so >> and what they don't show you is the things in between of like they had to run to the store to like pick up some milk, you know, you know, like all the

things they're like life gets in the way, you know, like >> uh yeah, like and other people get in the way too. And I don't want to say that my wife got the way. She always is actually like inspiring me to do better and be better. And that's another thing that I think is really important too. Always have someone that is in your corner that is going to give you objective feedback. And like the first time I I rented that tiller and like reduced the the soil in that footprint. I don't know probably like six inches, let's say. May I don't know, maybe four or whatever it is. Uh and had so much soil left out in the driveway. She was like, "No, like it needs to be deeper."

Like, and she just like came out like after I done all this work the whole weekend, like, and it was so hot that weekend, too. And I was just like just caked in dirt. And also, I'll send you some pictures. Um, I was like, "Are you serious? Like, I'm going to have to rent that tiller again." First of all, this toler was like steel, like hundreds of pounds, and like I was like getting in and out of my car myself, and it was just like it was a mess. And I was like, and she explained why, and she was like, "Well, I want to make sure this area is level."

And then like I'm like, "Well, the stones are like two to three like inches in thickness. I'm going to have to go down like another four inches." And she was and I was then there's a tree, too. And I was like, "It might like damage the roots of the tree." She's like, "Well, I guess you're going to have to dig around the roots somehow." And like it's so easy for her to say, but like the point being that like you don't know what the other nodes are in the equation until you start doing the work and I I respect her opinion and frankly she was right, you know, and so then I had to do it all over again. So talk about like, you know, my conbon board. It was like, oh, I was going to move that over into the done column and then it was like,

nope, it's still in the backlog. Like you are not done. It's it's it goes into the backlog for next weekend and all I think of that whole week, you know, in terms of like doing all the things that I need to do for like actual like URL um development, then I'm like thinking about, okay, like I I got to go to the rental place before they close on Friday, so I you Anyway, like all of these things that you have to think about just because somebody was like, "No, no, you need to do it better." And it's like, "Oh my god." You know? So, I think that's important to remember, too, is that when you watch all these like fast-paced YouTube videos, uh, and somebody gets something done within 30

seconds, like you really don't know everything that went into that. And they uh,% >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Anyway, >> the other thing about what you were saying that really struck me was the the sense that like, you know, you're doing something, you're you're you were advising that of others as well. Like if you're if you're looking at the world and thinking it looks a little bit chaotic and that crisises crisis are like building up accelerating. You know, it can be overwhelming and and maybe rumination is a natural response and fear. But what you're advising is to get into a kind of action state where whatever size of land

you have available to you or even if it's in your local community just doing some small thing with intention like intentionality cuz that that seems very much at the core of what you've done here. Like we could just be having a a conversation here about like oh you've just like redone your yard, right? or you've redone your garden, but it wasn't really that wasn't the motivation, right? You were like thinking about your water, your soil, your food system, food forests. So, there's all this it's a completely different mindset. And I think that uh combining that with action, however small, in my experience, and I see it reflected in you as well,

like you're it feels good. It feels like you're actually doing something positive in response to to crisis and uncertainty. >> A conscious choice that my wife and I made was to invest in community. And so that was part of this too, which is not just building a space for ourselves, but building a space for our extended family, right? Like so every every we now have a reason to invite people over to some degree, right? Like it's like come over and have some s'mores, you know? like it's like how can you say no to that, right? And uh my parents came over this past weekend and we just like sat around, you know, the the fire pit and hung out and like it was just

another place to commune. And so I think that's really important too is you know the ability to do something for others while it is again all for one one for all sort of thing is that like this is for us like we are thinking about this for our self- sovereignty for our resiliency but we're also thinking about this partly because the resources that we got whether it was knowledge or materials was also from the community you know and and if you think about kind of like global scale like of course it's all from the community like I don't know where these blue stones even came from like they came from somewhere that somebody like you know took time and effort to to to take them and transport

them to where we are now. But I think it's also really important to think about like if you're going to build something, how is it going to benefit others? I think that's something that people generally are trying to build for themselves and that's just natural and do things for themselves. But how are you going to make your space a place that you have either an excuse to invite people over, come check out this thing that I did or it's like, hey, let's go enjoy this location, this area, and then they will be inspired by it. Right? So like we've had friends come over, they're like, you did this yourself?

like they like don't like they're like and I'm not tooting my own here like this is like they're like this looks like it was done professionally. It's like well I took time and care and effort and you can too. Like a friend that we have they they just got a a new place and their backyard needs to be redone and like I didn't like push like how they could do this but like they might look around and be like huh we might be able to do something like this and I'm introducing the concept of a food forest to them and they're like huh that's new. You know, so like all of these little things start to create action um based on reactions and then that cycle is virtuous. I love it, man.

Like you mentioned Rob earlier, Robin I and I think you might even have done a YouTube video on this spoken about what effect it would have if you turned all the lawns or even a percentage of lawns in America into food forests. Yeah, >> that sounds like a that that's like a small piece of land on an individual level like your yard, but then what you're describing is like you're sharing that experience with others, but then there's a bit of a mimemetic desire that comes in as well, right? Like, oh, this looks very cool. The experience of being in this environment is very cool. That's kind of probably how lawns proliferated in a way. Like, everyone just had a lawn, right? If everyone had a food forest, like the benefits would be

significant, I think. So, it sounds like you're kind of starting a little movement there in your area. >> Yeah, I I really do believe so. Uh I think that the effort is the question, right? Like, how do you make this accessible to people? Because like I said, nights and weekends for me, I was super motivated, right? Is that what everybody's going to do? Is that what we should expect everybody to do? Not necessarily, but I think that like maybe the first step is recognizing that you can replace a dying plant with an edible one, you know, um, and maybe just start somewhere. And I think that that's an

important kind of small step where people can start to recognize that like they can do these things fairly easily. Um, and then you get to the point where you're replacing your whole. I've certainly thought about like we have a strip, you know, of lawn still in our front area and I'm like, how would I do this? And part of me is like, well, we could do micro clover because micro clover is edible. Um, but then there's all these questions of like, well, is it drought tolerant? Is the type of micro clover? But but again, like I'm already thinking about how can I replace my lawn with something edible? like it's just ground cover effectively, but like that's a small step, you know, like just

this little piece of grass I can replace with something edible. It's effectively the same thing. It's not like I'm putting in like a literal forest of like all these fruit trees and things like that, but I'm already considering like what I can do to improve that and also be a good example for others to be like, well, why are you doing that? You know, and talk about it. I want to move on like before we close out just to think about what all this means for the future and how we might scale some of this up. But before we do that, um I'm curious, is there anything else you want to share just about your experience of becoming more resilient, more antifragile in your local area? Any experiences, story, anything else you want to add to before we move on?

>> I'm sure there is, but um I feel like I've I've said a lot already. Cool. It's been great. And any just like the community vibes really come across. You you're you're leading in your community. You're showing people the way. And I'm wondering like do you have any thoughts going back to where we started off which is you were talking about the the future, you know, your wise about it's about like the future building a better future. Do you have any thoughts about how might we scale this kind of local resilience? What what would it look like in your community to have like you're

you're kind of doing this on a small scale like in your garden which is proliferating through your neighbors and people are getting interested in following you in that journey. What would it look like to see that at a bigger scale? like what would you like to see uh that might help to like yeah just widen the the interest in local resilience and and kind of scale this up. Any thoughts on that? I think it's resource allocation is the first thing that we have to think about and that is both time capital and materials and so the question of how we would scale this up is how would we make this possible for people that want to

start somewhere. Um, and we've talked a little bit about this in the past just on, you know, DAO conversations and things like that where it's like, is there a way that you can help subsidize, you know, and people can kind of prove that they are doing something that is going to get them from zero to one. And I think that that is twoofold beneficial. One is it takes the burden of how much is this going to cost to do X sort of thing. if you're able to kind of like have a plugandplay sort of, you know, like I said, replacing a dead plant with an edible plant, that is probably the lowest barrier to entry.

Um, and again, that doesn't, you know, that could be in your house, that could be an indoor plant, right? Um, uh, to, you know, a large farm or something like that. But I think that the provability and the communal collective awareness and accountability side of it is also important. It's like if you say you're going to do something, do it. Do what you say and say what you do. And if you sign up for it and you you check that box that you're going to participate in whatever form or fashion, then hold yourself accountable by sending in a picture, right? that like you did the thing or hold yourself accountable there is a deadline that you

should get this thing done because otherwise it's going to be easy to not do the thing. So I think in order to scale this sort of thing, you need, as you noted, some mimemetic desire, but you also need um different boxes that people can check. Like I'm going to do this and then I'm going to do this. And you need that trajectory of action for people to be inspired themselves that, oh, I can do this. Like now that I've built this patio, I'm like, what's next? You know, like I'm like, now I know what time and effort and capital it takes to do this. like, okay, now I want to redo all of the garden beds. Like, I want to put them on rollers. Like, and I've started that process of making my yard actually modular based on the

seasonality of things and based on the plants that I have. So, it's not like a static box. I want to get a bunch of boxes that are on rollers. And also, that helps for kind of like inviting people over. Like then it's not like, oh, we're going to open this place up and put the picnic table here now. You know, like whatever it is. I think I'm going off on a tangent again, but you know what I mean, right? Like I think that's the way you scale is that you give people the inspiration and the resources and then you hold them accountable or they hold themselves accountable. Like I guess that's more what it is. It's motivation, self motivation because you're not going to convince people to do things unless they want to do it.

>> Yeah, fully agree. Do you think there's like actually is a question about your local community? Do you think there's uh people are thinking about their own security and resilience and anti-fragility within suburban communities in your view? Or is it still quite a kind of niche view? >> People are thinking about it, but they don't know what to do. I think they're thinking about it from a doomer perspective, right? They're thinking about it like because they went through the pandemic and didn't have toilet paper at some point. you know, like now they have like a taste of like the fragility of things, but like they don't

think like, well, I could survive on, you know, beans that I plant in my backyard. Like they probably have thought of it. They've, you know, people are asking me about water catchments and like what I'm doing and how I'm doing it and how it's going and things like that, but like I haven't seen people like taking that next step. And I don't know what it's going to take for people to be aware of that. But I do think that it is something that that is in the social zeitgeist. Like I think it is in the back of people's minds, but they don't think it's because it's empowering. They think it's because they are going to be disempowered and they need to protect their family, you know, by some EMP or AI takeover, you know, when the

Terminator comes, like what are you going to do, you know, like or, you know, social unrest or uh natural disasters and things like that. Like I do think that this in the back of people's minds, but like they don't know like economic collapse. like they don't know when these things are coming and they don't have a motivation to act now because they're like, "Well, the power is still on." And I get that. That's why I'm not building a bunker yet. Do you think like I guess this is like final final question from my side. Do you think that if there was like a place within a community, I don't know if you could call it a bugout, like that term has

been flying around, like a place where you could go and uh that like provided an opportunity for people to learn about resilience, how to do things like what you've done in your home, but also provided some kind of contact with nature. Sure. And also perhaps in a in in a situation where there was disruption to the system had like food, water, energy and uh could meet the needs of the the members there. Do you think that that's something that would be like of interest to suburban communities or is it more

would that just be like kind of too weird and and like out there for them to contemplate that get involved in something like that? >> There's a market there for sure. Um there's I mean you could put that in the kind of the prepper category, but like it's also just like shift it over a little bit. the resiliency category, you know, like we want to just be resilient and there's definitely a market for that. You're partially describing the concept that I've been, you know, wanting to see come to come to life for a long time that we've talked about before. I call we like a communal place where people can go and just co-work for the day like in the woods, right? like you have, you know, the amenities of Wi-Fi and like um potentially, you know, all the food and

beverage options that you would have in in in a situation like that and people could stay over and camp, but like more importantly, there would be like seminars. I know you guys have, you know, experimented with some of these things as well at Vau. Um, where people could come in and drop in for a talk and like understand, you know, how to create solar arrays and how to connect, you know, that to your home and power, you know, your yourself um or charge batteries and things like that. So, yes, I want to see this. Uh, I hope this happens. Um, I want to be a catalyst for it. Um, but again, the only thing only the only way that I'm going to get closer to that is actually having experience by doing things and being able to find my my people that want to

participate in these things in a way that's on the same wavelength as me. >> Thanks a lot for for joining us today, Gardner. Is there anything else you want to add before we wrap things up? >> I just want people to be happy and free. So get out there and figure out how you can uh be the best version of yourself and start doing something. Take that first step. Build that first brick. Make it happen. >> Cheers. Much love. later on.