VDAO Ep.4 : Pop-Up Cities, Membership Models & Network Societies with Chance McAllister

Transcript

What does this concept or this term network state mean to you? >> It really is an umbrella term for orgs and movements and initiatives that have agency or sense people have a sense of agency that they think they can make changes around something and that umbrella is pretty wide. I just started chatting with somebody or a few people actually um in the comments and our conversations were such that I was like wow I want to talk more. It's kind of awkward to chalk in a comment section. Um, so I made a discord and just added the link and something it's over like 200 eventually kind of trickled in there and it was this interesting sort of corner of the internet and that it was the only place you could find it was

just by this comment section and so it was very intrinsic filter and being early the earlier wave we'll say of network states that seemed to be what they were missing. It was more of like an intellectual idea but it didn't have that kind of social infrastructure forming. So that is what compelled me to be like I have to go and not only go I have to interview at least 20 people and you know calculate how many messages were sent in each channel to get a say you know like kind of ridiculous scholarly [music] things. >> Hey Chance, good to see you man. How you doing?

>> I'm doing well. How are you? >> Good. Good. We're really excited for this conversation today. Thanks so much for for coming along and joining us on this uh green pill series that we've been doing. Every person we've had on, we we've kind of tried to kick things off by asking them a bit about their why and I want to kind of follow that trend again today. So I'm curious like as a builder in the network state space, what's your why? what motivates you here as as a builder?

>> Great question. I think thinking through it's been my why even before being in this space broadly I think that we're in the 21st century now and we have a lot of big shifts that have happened uh and are continuing to happen a lot of pace of change is uh it's increasing and that creates uh challenges and so broadly my sort of mission in life if you could say it in that way is to help people uh adapt and thrive in the 21st century. And so that has taken various has taken me down various paths in life whether from edtech largely around networks is kind of where I I go towards like interesting niched um new networks formation uh because I believe a lot of our uh support and benefits and what

makes life meaningful is through our networks and um so you know we kind of be in the name network state kind of a coincidence but I think you know network state is an umbrella for a bunch of things that I think a lot of the projects in this space are people who are looking to uh help how do you make sense of the world now? How do you thrive the world now? How do you uh make changes that make uh uh uh the world a better place or a place that where people can thrive in it? So that would be my why. That's kind of why I showed up and why I continue to hang around. >> Nice. And you mentioned there are the this term network states and uh obviously that's the theme of our season here on Greenpill, but it's not necessarily the the clearest term like

it can mean different things to different people. You've mentioned there it's kind of umbrella. Um I wonder if we could like double click on that like what does this concept or this term network state mean to you? >> Yeah, great great question. It is for me very much an umbrella. I'm not I think of network city I'm not going necessarily on the kind of textbook like literal textbook definition. Um it's more of an umbrella term that many things fall under. So uh where I've spent a lot of time focusing on are pop-up villages or public cities have people might have heard of it. Zujulu is a term often heard there. These fall under there. I think you could do a lot of sort of Dow a lot of crypto ecosystems fall under these this term in different ways. is kind of adjacent to

that. Um but to me it's it really is an umbrella term for orgs and movement and initiatives that have agency or sense people have a sense of agency that they think they can make changes around something and that umbrella is pretty wide like even within the network state space you can have your kind of more I don't know if traditional is the right word but more like uh libertarian exit people then you have way on the other side you have much more I say it's completely voice but or microexit maybe the other version of that and they're all kind of under that same umbrella. And so that is it's more of an ethos than it is something to to define specifically. And the term that I

tend to use is actually network societies. I think that's a more accurate term for what these are merging into in the near term. And I think the the state word has some I say issues is the right word for it, but I think it get people confused around like at least the parts that I'm really excited about. Um, so I think network societies is the term that I tend to use. >> It sounds like from what you described that, uh, you know, it's a space where people with lots of different perspectives can kind of come together and I guess also carve their own path within this umbrella, this this like area that we're all building in together. And I'm curious like how have you found it with on your own journey?

like one of the few people in the space I've noticed has got a real key interest in like research and like kind of looking at this almost in from an ethnographic kind of perspective like also in a historical perspective but yeah like from a research uh standpoint like how how have you found that and like I wonder if you could tell us a bit about like how you got here to this point of kind of building that niche for yourself. >> Yeah, sure. Yeah, so that actually it's been super fun from that perspective. I mean, I love kind of be in this position where academics kind of hiss at me for not being, you know, as rigorous. I'm not, you know, full-on rigorous as an academic. And then sort of more startup tech people are like kind of hissing

like, why are you uh being so scholarly? Uh maybe as a way to do it. And I actually like that intersection. I like that middle space. Actually, that brings me to one before on your last question that I didn't mention that I should have is there is this part of this is that you've kind of got have this group of people who've grown up partly on the internet and there's polity is the right word, but there's something emerging where you meet people in this in this sort of world and you're you feel like you have a lot more in common with them than you might necessarily in your nation state or your uh you know community where you grew up in. Um so that that to the side how I got here uh I generally just sort of follow my interest and my curiosity has a kind of

abnormal engine maybe is one way to put it and that drives me um to places but more specifically how I got into this I guess there's a few ways I've kind of been dancing around the network state space since its origin so there the network state we'll say the website the network state aologies uh term it used to be called 1729 and uh that I think is like a really actually important uh term to kind of land on and that's how I originally got into it is he did a podcast talking about 1729 and at that point it was an education it seemed or at least that's what drove my interest is it seemed like a novel or not sorry novel but like an exciting uh education initiative and so 1729 uh just to quickly go through that it's

a homage uh to a mathematician named Rammanujin uh who is from India originally and he uh was a sort genius kind of quirky mathematician who found his way to Cambridge which was the hub of mathematics in the world at the time and he contributed through the field of mathematics and the idea around calling it 7029 I forget the exact story of why that's tied to him but we can just 7029 means ramenujin um but why that homage is that uh to now uses the term dark talent but it's this basically this idea that you have talent around the world that may not be in the place that allows them to thrive and if they were be able to go to a different place they could

kind of unlock their potential. Um and that's kind of the idea of is like that's a shame that's unfortunate that Rammenujan has to go from a place in India I I forget the time period he was but it was not you know recent to Cambridge and then he was able to contribute to a larger field of mathematics. So that that's kind of one of the things that brought me in we'll say was that idea 1729 which still is still a big thing in uh the network school that biology has and in the term dark talent is what he uses for that now but it's kind of a funny entrance is I forget the exact article but one of the articles he published on 1729 I just started chatting with somebody or a few people actually um in the comments and our conversations were such that I was

like wow I want to talk more it's kind of awkward to talk in a comment section. Um, so I made a discord and just added the link and something I it's over like 200 eventually kind of trickled in there and it was this interesting sort of corner of the internet and that it was the only place you could find it was just by this comment section and so it was very intrinsic filter and kind of insane like the the I don't say the say talent density is maybe a weird way to put it but just the sort of fascinating character density of that was um uh incredible like one person just off the top of my head who was one of the original people. He just published a book on uh Estonia's e residency program because he was one of the people on the

original team that did it as a quick example. Yeah. So that that's kind of how I got in there and then then I got into Dows and this sort of thing. Um but to fast forward for the more specific more recent one for public villages, I had been studying uh mut the history of mutual aid societies and kind of how we got uh social safety nets in countries now. And the the kind of the thing that I landed on there of my conclusion is that you have formal safety nets which is your kind of insurance, your hospitals, all these things that states have and you have your informal safety nets which are your social ties, your friendships, your family. You know, to give an example, a concrete example, a few years ago, my father had cancer. And so when he had cancer, you go through

the state um local uh as far as like getting chemo and doctors, all extremely valuable, extremely important. Then there's the softer support that's informal, which is family members coming, family members driving to the hospital, supporting other family members. And um sadly, he did pass away from that. And but seeing now that s uh informal structure is still there like my aunt comes literally every single day of the week comes to visit my mom uh to have a coffee or glass of wine and um you know relatives family it's just like a I'm from a rural area in Canada so it's you know that kind of informal safeter here than in major cities but I was just sort of fascinated by that

conclusion and thought these digital nomads this sort of thing emerging it's not probably sustainable as individuals sort of jumping So when I heard about Zuzulu and public villages is basically like it seemed to me as a potentially social tie generators and being earlier the earlier wave we'll say of network states that seemed to be what they were missing. It was more of like an intellectual idea but it didn't have that kind of social infrastructure forming. So that is what compelled me to be like I have to go and not only go I have to interview at least 20 people and you know calculate how many messages were sent in each channel to get a say you know like kind of ridiculous scholarly things. um or I mean somewhat scholarly and so that that's kind of how I came into it. Maybe two angles of how

I got into it. >> Nice. And do you think there's like you mentioned there about the the 17 is it 17 >> 29 29 >> I hope it was 29 17 something >> 1729. Um I actually didn't know that connection with the mathematician. So I heard of that community before but I didn't know that connection. And is that like the the context there is is it about like yeah like where that that per that person had a lot of talent had a lot of expertise and and a lot to offer that they developed in their own way through their own motivation but they had to go to this kind of locust of credibility or this intellectual hub of

Cambridge before they could like action that and to the the fullest extent. And is is what you're saying that like network states are a way of or maybe Bajagi is also saying that network states are a way of bringing people together that are spread out. So like someone like yourself in rural Canada or someone else in like rural areas or some like maybe in Asia or Australia or anywhere can like come together and like actually meaningfully offer and uh kind of contribute to something and build something. Yeah, absolutely. I mean that's what at least for me the one of the driving interests in this is is creating spaces that are not your usual

suspects like yes um there are people who say okay this is all just silly they should just go to San Francisco like no one should waste time anything other like this and I view network state space these pop-up villages network school these are basically saying no we don't need we need like that's not good enough um because a most people in the world can't just go there. Visa, mobility issues, you can't do it. Costwise, you can't do it. And many people don't want to do that. I don't think this is a world I want to live in that has just these sort of few hotspots. I like the idea of contributing to creating more of these spaces that can kind of unlock talent and u maybe undock talent is one way to put it. Um another way just allow

it's basically like enabling environments for people. uh you know it not necessar necessarily have to be like economically productive like they're going to explode do this sort of thing you know like a lot of mathematics in that way it's not necessarily economically productive it's contributing to a field so I kind of think of it broadly but yeah it is creating these new spots for for people to go to where they can kind of find their people find their paths and and make thrive in the 21st century is kind of how I think of it >> and you you mentioned a couple of times this popup scene that's emerged in the last couple years. So I guess the first kind of the emergence of the network state space came out of this forum that you describe and then it seems like the

next stage was like these pop-up villages and it seems like you've been to several of them and also spoken to many people there with like this kind of research focus and I'm curious if you could kind of tell us a bit more about like what that was like what's your experience been like visiting these pop-ups and also I guess like what's your what's been your intention there your objective with going to these places and meeting all these people and gathering their views. >> Uh great question. So for the first one I should say the just to clarify the pop-ups didn't emerge from the forum. I think maybe the book the pop-ups emerged from the the network state book and I think the if I had this

correctly it was basically the time had gone by where you had the book you had a lot of excitement around the idea and but not a lot of concrete things happening and the way I've heard it anyways is that uh Brutderin the founder of Ethereum was like okay let's try something concrete um and so tried to do a what they called Zuzulu Montenegro which was a pop-up city I think there's a term they were using then. But I just think I just say another thing that I think is important here is that you know Ethereum uh as sort of this crypto universe of crypto culture all these things uh this is is this whole universe has been happening for you know many years at this point and they have this kind of I think it's an abnormal

conference circuit I don't know what you call it um but it's you know there are people that just sort of travel and live going to these things and you have these other kind of interesting organizational um typologies is one way you could do it that emerged like hacker houses that you know kind of follow these things around you know and the hacker houses might be a smaller number of people but they might be there for a whole month or they might be for a place for a year uh whereas the conference might be for a week or a few days and have many people and so I think it was very clear for uh someone like Vitalik who's been also I think basically like living at these things for many years that there's a missing gap and so the idea there you had the network state idea not a lot

things concrete happening it's kind of inspiration but then also probably just sort understanding that there's this gap where people are traveling these things not super efficient to be doing that so let's try I think the idea was like let's try have a couple hundred people for one or two months in one place um and so that is when the first kind of the model got stamped you know in some ways it's not different you there's been a lot of digital nomad things along these lines but I think with the sort of Ethereum and crypto ethos of more earnestness around like it there there are kind of like innovation goals there are um you of social innovation goals.

There are things that are not just let's just enjoy a place for a month that maybe more digital maps have. So that is kind of the origin stories as far as I understand how uh they came about. And then once you had that model that kind of typology of the pop-up city, it was you kind of had product market fit in a way because it solves something for people um that are living this sort of lifestyle. And so it just kind of exploded in the last couple years from there as far as there's maybe over 60 or 70 that have happened since that one. Um okay. Okay. And then why to me to to do the more scholarly approach?

>> I guess there's this uh as you described that you you were um kind of part of these communities from the earliest days and you were meeting all these people. I'm curious like what was it that motivated you to take it to the next level? So like going to the popups themselves and like gathering insights from people there. I think you said you wanted to like interview 20 people and like gather their their insights like what was it? What was your motivation there and also your objective like your research objective that you were trying to achieve with that process?

>> Uh yes. Okay. So on an objective this is goes back to the kind of curiosity engine. Um my objective was to learn basically is that like I you know compelled to to learn what is going on here? Why are people coming to here? What is what is this? because I had been studying digital nomads and I've been living that lifestyle. I had been living that lifestyle for a long time before. So the objective was that and I guess that there'd be two part. One is to learn just like kind of basic curiosity. The other one is uh as a participant I became you know a member of these these these communities and in some ways they consider them like a home. They are a home to me in in many important ways. So the other side is okay how can I help them? So learning information, getting a

sense of this has been able to give me data points to help kind of find ways to be useful if that if that makes sense. Uh at some point I would like to do a larger output of it. Um shockingly I think I've done something like 170 interviews at this point and it's not out there yet. Like I haven't published anything. I I wouldn't say I haven't used it. I've used it a lot as far as like finding ways to be useful in small little ways in the background, I guess, or uh that sort of thing. Um, but yeah, at some point I would like to publish something. I think what's coming across with as you describe your journey here is like going from being a digital nomad to like catching some like uh connections in this this Discord channel

that you set up or like starting in Belgi's group, setting up your own Discord and then ending up in these popup cities like being a participant but also trying to learn and and gather information from other people and gather their insights. What comes across more than anything is that like you're actually you're actively building out these communities as well, right? Like you're so you're you're researching and learning, but you're that through the process of learning that's actually like like getting some knowledge that can help the community to grow and build and move to the next level. Yes, I wouldn't want to overstate my contributions, but yes, definitely that's kind of the goal of um yeah, another thing I should

mention of what kind of has driven me on the cur, you know, sort of okay, yes, you have raw curiosity, but part of my interest is uh I've been, you know, the history of uh social safety nets are basically the history of mutual aid societies and there maybe in a more kind of root way you could think of it is is basically the history of how people combine to solve collective problems. And I'm really fascinated with that. So you you have kind of another adjacent with this is like the history of civil societies and I've really done a lot of uh research on you know kind of gets to stuff we'll talk about today history of civil societies in early nation state formation so I'm from Canada so I have done a lot research in Canada I spent a lot of time in Australia so I've also

researched Australia and UK just has a lot of it so you know like a lot of uh the history of associations or like the ones in Canada Australia anyways are kind of from there and so it's kind of fascinating to me thinking through of, you know, how important civil societies and these sort of organizational forms that take off and kind of tie people together around these jurisdictions are really important for those nation states becoming what they are today. And you could argue that's part of why things like network state are emerging is because some of that civil society stuff is no longer as relevant. These memberships are not as robust and people are trying to find other ways uh to adapt and thrive. And so that you know that kind of that understanding that in history and go like oh that stuff is

actually really important. If you can find these sort of organizational forms that combine people in optimal ways if you can find that again that is sort of lightning in a bottle for you know communities and individuals. So that was kind of like almost pining. Could this be something like that? Uh in a way it's unclear if it, you know, can be, but I think it's the closest thing I've seen in this space is that >> I love how you're putting it in this like historical context. And it it kind of adds to the meaning and and the importance of this this movement in a way. And kind of one of the I guess to look at the the flip side like the critique the criticisms that come for for these popups is that like they're just summer camps for digital nomads

like wealthy people that travel around the world and they move from one place to the next and don't really build any attachments there. like there's been a lot of kind of criticism coming uh towards this movement from that direction and I'm curious what your thoughts are on that like what what's your your take having been at the start of it like attending these popups and also seeing it as part of more of a a bigger historical movement I guess. >> Yeah. No, I think the the um the quip summer camp for adults is true in a way like it's not um you know it's maybe not a charitable view uh I don't think it necessarily takes away from it but it is somewhat true right this is what is

happening um it's not just adults I mean there are increasingly families that are doing this and and that sort of thing and there are some orgs that are trying to do multigenerational different ages that sort of thing but I think that is is you know it's an uncharable view, but it's a correct view. Um, but it doesn't take away from them in my opinion. Like a lot of things start off as kind of quaint, silly looking things, but I wouldn't say it's necessarily true. The wealth one, it may be broadly true, but I think increasingly not. I've definitely, as I've been maybe 12 or 13 now, I forget the exact count of these different sort of pop-up village orgs.

And some of them, yes, they skew more that way, but there are some of them are not. Like if you go to network school, you'll find people that dropped out of university in India and are there to study physics. Like that's one literally one person I met there. He said, "I'm studying physics here. I dropped out of university in India because I'm studying it online anyways like MIT and these sort of online courses. I may as well do it here." Now, it definitely costs money to get there. Costs money to be there. Uh but it is not my point is that you're not necessarily just like the kind of global elite jumping around. It's not all that way. And I think increasingly as they become more permanent hubs in a way then they'll be more able to do that. I mean all of them to some extent

they all have versions where they're bringing in like they'll use different terms like fellows or whatever where they're subsidizing them to come uh kind of exceptional people or you know these sort of ramen uh types that they're aiming for. Yeah, there's a long way to go from that, but I think it's more downstream of physical hubs. >> Yeah. And do you think there's like an interest in the space to move to this this point of like having more physical hubs? Like do you think people are there there's a demand for that? Like you talked about product market fit earlier for like the pop-ups and stuff. Do you think that there's product market fit for permanent hubs?

>> I think that's an open question for now. I think if I would be bet on I would say yes. I I don't think the model has been fully figured out. I think what network school is doing is an interesting one where they have basically a hotel maybe there's a hotel for now but I think it's not just a hotel but I think the the larger thesis there of group of people find like mutually beneficial scenario with a distressed physical asset or a distressed area uh where having those people there would be beneficial you know largely to that place never perfect but like uh you know there are many um places, jurisdictions and physical assets in the world that are distressed. And by that's maybe a

kind of an annoying way to put it, but what I mean is that another kind of going to the historical analogy probably the largest uh trend in my opinion the last 300 years is rural to urban migration just in the world broadly. We went from basically being agricultural societies to industrial societies and we have urbanized in that process. Uh but what that has left is almost every country in the world will have depopulated rural areas and the issue with depopulated rural areas is that it costs money to maintain those places and they are generally you know by and large they're all kind of following the same trend of becoming older less tax money coming in for those places but you don't necessarily uh pay less money to run them right like if you have half the

population you still have to pay for water for infrastructure you still have sewage infrastructure electricity that doesn't necessarily go away or or just drop in, you in accordance with uh the the population. So there are a lot of places in the world that if you could help bring people there in a in a mutually beneficial way, they would be open to that. It necessarily it's unclear, you know, how that dynamic would work out. Uh but I think we have historical analogies where or examples where that has worked out to some extent. So I think those when they start permanent hubs start to go towards those as opposed to just looking for places where they don't have those advantages uh kind of mutually beneficial advantages where they're they can get cheaper land or you know other things that would make it easier for them to do

that. Uh so that's one but there are places even in wealthier or more expensive places like there's Frontier Tower in San Francisco that is doing the same dynamic but in uh a city spec uh uh uh way and like buying an actual commercial you distressed asset. But I'll stop there. We can u tell you where you want to go from now. >> Yeah, it's super interesting though like I I think I also agree like it's an open question, right? But it the signs are good I would say. uh and I think the more of these experiments at this stage they're kind of experimental but the more experiments happen and the more that we see these really landing and growing and developing I think that will

start a kind of flood of interest into this this kind of >> and one one more so I I think I think you're correct and another thing I another way you can mention this or you could there's one way you could talk about is like you know how viable is it this sort of thing. That's one side. But I think probably even more of an important side is what is driving people to want this sort of thing in the first place and is that going to change? >> Right? So I'm sitting in rural Ontario, Canada. You know, the income places around here are basically factories and farming and you can find houses for 800,000 900,000 Canadian like extreme like you know 10x the income uh yearly income of uh people. here is the

housing. So, you know, broadly housing prices and affordability of crisis around the world uh are I think a big push factor pushing people towards these things. And so, that I don't think is changing anytime soon. Maybe it will, but if that if that dynamic exists, you're going to have people that are going to be looking for other alternatives. and if they so that that makes it easier for these projects that are looking for um you know providing alternatives because that gives you kind of gas in the way to help make things or at least get experiments off the ground that may not normally. So I think that's another way you could think of it not just you know how are they doing it's like what are the things pushing to make it whatever they're going to try to do easier as well.

>> Yeah that makes so much sense. um you kind of threaded in this historical context which I I love and uh I want to go even a level deeper now and get into this this topic a topic that I know is a big interest of yours as like the this Menanites. I know you've you've spoken about uh Amen several popup villages in the past and I just wanted to yeah give you an opportunity today to share some of your insights that you've kind of gained through researching the Menanites and bringing the the kind of best elements that you can see for how they formed their early communities and

interacted with the state kind of existing systems. and what we can learn from from them as network stake builders. Um, so yeah, I wonder if we could kick things off by just telling us a bit like about who the Menites are and uh yeah, what's like what philosophy guides them and why why is that relevant for for network state builders? >> Okay. Yeah, this is very fun for me. I'm normally pretty shy for podcasts, but Menanites is something a topic that I think is uh super fascinating. I have here my uh paper that first got me onto them. It's uh Quebec's reactions to the 1920 manitoba menite search for land by Charlotte McCollum. Yes. So Menanites, who are they and why are they

interesting? I think who they are, they are a product of the Protestant Reformation. So I think they originally around 1500s is kind of when they started kicking off and the the main things about them are that they kind of they're from the Anabaptist movement. And so they don't believe that a baby should be baptized. They think it should be a believer should make the decision to be baptized. And so that's a big deal for them. I think or I should also preface that I'm not a Menanite scholar. Um I think I have, you know, very some niche areas. I I know a lot about them especially around their kind of uh diplomatic aspects. Yes, this there's a whole scholar based on this, not to

mention actual communities, people who live in them. Uh, so I want to do that caveat. If anyone wants to get more into them, I recommend University of Winnipeg's uh, they have a department, the Transnational Menanite Community Department of Kind. Okay, so Anabaptist, so they don't want babies to be baptized. They want believers to choose that. That's one of them. They're also pacifist, so no war is a big thing. Um, and they they're very particular in their kind of community norms. Um and so with that they managed to uh piss off both the uh the Catholics and the Protestants. So they actually have a history of just being persecuted. And so this is kind of a big thing for them.

This is why they have traveled uh in many places. So since we'll say let's say 1500 since then they basically travel different places and now they're around the world. There's something like two million Menanites in I don't know 50 countries and they basically have like set communities where they go and there's some big ones they I think they originally were from uh what is now Switzerland and Germany and they kind of jumped around uh famously Katherine the Great invited them to uh what was then Russia um and some of the I think the ones that where I am in Canada came from Russia maybe also Swiss German ones as as well. So that's kind of who they are

very broadly that they're kind of fascinating group actually. Maybe people would know them from thinking the Amish are very similar. The Amish are an offshoot of the Menanites. They're the Amish are known at least in the US and Canada is kind of like the anti-tech people. They wear traditional clothes. They still use um horse and buggy often um and are kind of very careful with how they choose technology in their communities. uh to the point of like you know if you go to Waterlue in Canada here where there's a big Menanite u community outside there's literally like a big they have sticks in front of like the coffee shops the Tim Hortons or the grocery stores because they have to hook their horses to the you know park when they go to the grocery store. Um so

that's who they are. Now do you want me to do why I think they're interesting for the network state movement? >> Yeah, for sure. >> Okay. So why are they interesting? So they're interesting because they are an example of a you know I think you could just call them a cloud community in a way you know they have always been physical space but they are they do have a it is there is a transnational Menanite community it's a membership in a in an international community that matters like it they they migrate between their their kind of community settlements within the countries um um and they move as a unit that's the core thing is they you know when they get persecuted uh basically the the common thing they move as a group they say okay we're being persecuted you know murdered

uh these sort of things uh pushed on in their places like historically in the 1500s 1600s and they would choose to go somewhere else but they are really amazing farmers which is one of the things that allows them to make deals with jurisdictions is they are amazing farmers which is important because uh you know now we are you know industrialized technological societies but back then we were mostly agricultural societies. So I think really you can think of them as like in their time they were basically like AI engineers what they brought to the table was extremely valuable to the places they went and so places wanted them there uh and would trade significant things to make them come there. So when Katherine the Great asked them to come, it was like here have land, you get free

land um and you don't have to go to war and these sort of things and broadly they have often those kind of deals like they're very clear on who they are, what they bring to the table and what they want and they negotiate with jurisdictions for that. So we can go here. This is um the example for Quebec for this paper 1920 is a good example. So they I think they had come from Russia to Saskatchewan, a province in Canada. And they had basically gotten like hundreds of thousands of acres in Saskatchewan for free or very cheap. They also um brokered a deal that they would do their own schooling with their kids. That's really important for them.

Um they're schooling in German with their own values and norms and da da da. And also they wouldn't have to go to war. Um, and true to form in Canada, they didn't legally have to go to war in World War I and World War II, which of course had controversy, but kind of wild. They're able were to broker that deal. Um, but in the Saskatchewan case for this paper in 1920, the province said, "Okay, you no longer uh can do school. We're doing statewide school. Um, let's we're going to change that." So, they said, "All right, we're out." And we're talking not like a couple people, we're talking like 12,000 people. Like they're going to go.

And so they went shopping around to jurisdictions including the province of Quebec and Canada. And we're brokering deals basically. Like they say, "Here's what we want. We want, you know, give us hundreds of acres for cheap or free and we do our own language schools. We're not going to be super involved. We're not going to cause any problems. We don't, you know, they're very well policed. All of that." Um, and they would broker deals. So that why do I think it's useful for network state movement? I think this pragmatism of understanding who you are, what you bring to the table and finding these mutually beneficial dynamics is the actual like that's the pragmatic thing forward. I think people get caught up too much in like the sovereignty part and thinking that there's going to be

this separate countries, you know, that's going to be equal to other countries. I think that's very unrealistic at least anytime soon. The more realistic one is how can you help a jurisdiction? how can your presence and whatever you bring to the table helps uh that place that is where you're going to get um kind of mutually beneficial situations and that in fact is what biology is doing in network state like that is a failed development project what do you do with that uh okay we can bring people here it's like a mutually beneficial at least at the start we'll see how that goes over time but I think the biggest learning is that just seeing this dynamic of how they were able to negotiate and you have such a long period period. It's hundreds of years

they've been doing this and and it's also I like it in kind of it's not a black and white. It's very nuanced in the history of the Menites. You see the challenges, you know, and even in this case, Quebec ultimately said no and they went to Mexico. Um and you see the challenges of, you know, they have to lead. They don't sometimes it doesn't work out. Sometimes one party uh renegs on the deal. Um, so I think they're like a really realistic view of where the next network state movement could go in the near and medium term. >> And there's so many threads we could pull on this. Like it's it the similarities are really striking that way, right? But I wonder to there's there's three topics I want

to touch upon. These are perhaps the most controversial or the most kind of contested areas of the network state space. But I think exploring them in the context of the Menanites adds a different level of depth and and an interesting uh context. I think the first is around this idea that network states need to have like a moral commandment or like some binding unifying like kind of uh shared value system within the community. Sounds like that was super strong within the Menonet community. I'd love to uh kind of double click on that a bit. That's the first piece. The second piece is about like exit. These communities clearly were

wanting to exit from systems that they felt didn't quite fit within their or or they weren't able to find ways in certain jurisdictions to live life in the way that they wanted to. So they wanted to exit to different jurisdictions and set up there. And the third thing is like sovereignty. And I think it would be really interesting to think about all three of these in the sense of like that context of pragmatism that you just mentioned there. Like they seem like they were super pragmatic about this. Like uh they were trying to leverage the assets and the qualities

and skills they could bring to the jurisdiction and use that as a way of uh achieving their their objectives. Yeah, absolutely. They they they definitely that's one of the main learnings from them is that they had that pragmatism and they earned it honestly, right? They have hundreds of years to to earn that and hundreds of years to build up their solidarity and their sense of, you know, who they are. And I think a lot of it is their persecution is, you know, what built that up. Um I forget the name of it. There is one document that is there sort of a you know close second or maybe I shouldn't say close second but it's like a you know it's part of the canon of the Menanite faith is a story basically of them being persecuted like

the trials of you know it's like a list of being buried alive and these sort of things uh like these are things that happened to their ancestors and it's probably every step they every place they go they have been able to add to this book I don't think they have necessarily but I think that's a important aspect of it and they're very specific with the things they believe and you know they're even very like they have a belief on you know part of the reason they want to do their own schooling is they believe that if their kids go to state schools they become really bad farmers. Um you know they actually like they they say that in their negotiation it's it's in it. Um yeah experience clearly shows us that a very educated person no longer has a taste for the prosaic life of a farmer.

The city attracts him. rather as we want to remain attached to the land we are satisfied with rather elementary in structure like this is part of their negotiation with Quebec at the time so they have a real sense of who they are and what works for them uh so that you know in a way you could think they're an interesting uh analogy historic analogy for network states but that's non-trivial to be able to build that sense of who we are the network state movement none of them have anywhere close to that yet like this is a religious movement forged in the fires of you the Protestant Reformation. Um, that's, you know, not anywhere near what this stuff is, but I think there's still there's still something to learn from their diplomatic aspect.

>> Do you think it's like it's necessary to have that level of connection within a community if you're going to move to the point of having permanent hubs and like living together and so on? or do you think we're do you think it's possible to be much more diverse in in that sense? >> That's a great question and one that I that's that's an open question. I would say like there is one you could one push back you'd say of okay you have these sort of these geographically independent people right they work on the internet that's like broadly what brings a lot of these people together and they've kind of grown up on the internet but they're flaky in a way right like they can in that they they can just travel to places um so how can you kind of m get people

to stay in a certain way maybe it's not necessarily one place right it might be we have different underlying conditions right it might more people are multilocal maybe they have two or three places within that they kind of travel between there are some projects that are exploring ways to uh try to figure that out but yeah that is an open question how do you do that >> yeah and I guess the the lessons are like you said it's contextual as well right like in that historical context the persecution played a big role uh but they from the sense of it they achieved a sense of community cohesion a sense of belonging within the community and um people are willing to relocate as a

group and negotiate as a group with the states to achieve objectives that they all seem to share to some degree. >> Yes. And I would say just to be more specific, jurisdictions is I think a more specific word than states because it's often I think part of I think is so useful about the Menanites is they're you're basically taking this you know this sort of cloud community we'll call it that has certain properties things they're good at things that they need things that they want um and all that and specific jurisdictions solving the problem right so when you think of yes Canada had broader goals but Saskatchewan had more specific goals um and they're you you know, it's

Saskatchewan that's saying, "Okay, we want you here. We're going to use our whatever capital, social capital, connections, money, whatever, land to bring you here." So, I think it is important to be specific to say jurisdictions. Um, but yes. >> Yeah. So, it wasn't like they were going from country to country negotiating with different countries. It was like local so local governments, local jurisdictions and administrative bodies rather than like this the state of Canada. >> Yeah, I think it was both. It was both like Canada did do a I forget where it was. It was called something the privilege of some name but and that was a way because they as a national goal.

So if you also I think another thing that's important with is is the Menanite really brings to for the importance of thinking about problems that groups and jurisdictions have because that's a key thing to these things working. So you know the the the problems for the menites were are more obvious. They're like we're getting killed, we're getting you know they're taking or or less drastic like but maybe as drastic in their minds of like they're forcing our kids to do this state propaganda education or whatever, right? And so that's more clear for them. Um but for the jurisdictions it's always different.

In Canada's case in you know turn of the century you know Canada was a fairly new place. Um and you had different problems. One problem they had was land was economically unproductive. Like they had all this land um that they wanted to make more productive. So you know whether you agree with that or not or the you know there are issues around that people could argue da da but that was just was the case from their perspective. they need to make land economic more economic um economically valuable and another one that was probably more important existential was we need to bolster this land because these Americans I'm from Canada we're very fussy about the Americans especially right now but uh uh it' be like these Americans will just come up and just take over that was a legitimate threat um then yeah so they wanted to

solve that and that was a problem that the state the national state wanted to solve and the individual uh state or province even more wanted to solve that you go down closer. But yes, I think by and large the closer you get to the ground, the more they have at stake, the more they understand the problems that they have and the more that they are open to kind of make a deal if that makes sense. >> Yeah. And it sounds like from what you're saying like the main parallels here are like the taking for example the network skill or frontier tower. They're taking distressed assets and they're the communities they are they're they're being useful within the local economy than the local context building community. It's a pragmatic approach.

It's not saying like putting a flag in the ground and saying no we are a state right. It's like more yeah looking at the opportunities and leveraging those to achieve a a longer term objective in a kind of stepby-step sort of way, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. I think that is I'm kind of on team pragmatic steps. Um because then people can get involved, you know, people can I think a lot of people don't care about the the network state kind of uh ideology so to speak, right? Like and that's completely fine. People can be agnostic to that, but it's solving a problem for them and you know some of these projects why not go in that direction at all? Maybe some of them will like it's un really clear on that

one. I think um yeah, the more pragmatic solving problems for people in in spaces like or local jurisdictions, this is the the hot the sweet spot I think. >> Yeah. And I love that like going back to that term you you shared earlier like that this is like an umbrella for lots of different ways of approaching. I think maybe there's a similar kind of uh understanding of the problem like or the needs like there's need we have a need for community at this point in history. We have a need to reimagine the systems that we depend upon and think how how we might do them kind of build new systems that are fit for the challenges that we face now at this

point in history. And people are coming together in different ways to experiment and try out things. And um not that we're about to uh start a new religious sector or anything like that, [laughter] but the there is a certain sense of like uh people are building community identity around these these different groups like in popups like moving into the permanent hubs like it's Yeah, I think the parallels that you've drawn are very strong. And I think another one on that reminds me is membership. Sometimes I I think membership just thinking about what is membership kind of fundamentally is an interesting way to approach this because we have you know we have citizenship.

Citizenship is a version of me. It is a kind of lofty membership. Um but historically you know there are different versions of membership and if you were to talk through a Menanite they probably you know you have a membership stack like as far as what fits your identity. a Menanite probably puts Menanite membership higher in their stack than or more important in their stack than Canadian or whatever, right? These these sort of jurisdictions kind of swap in and out based on what they will provide and what kind of deal or whatever. I think that's by and large the case. Maybe not necessarily, but historically that's always kind of been that way, right? This is actually that reminds me one of the main things that distinguished the Menanites was they refused to do oaths like um you know to be a Canadian citizen like part of their

original deal and I think I have to look into this further. I think oaths uh were more of a thing historically like we still drew them. They're still a thing but I think they've kind of lost their luster you know as far as the the the kind of the meaning that they kind of came from and that might be interesting to explore more. But I think there's kind of competition for membership like what can have novel membership for people and I kind of going back to our other strand this is one thing I noticed especially in Canada and Australia early civil society orgs you know for example one of my favorite civil org in Canada is the women's institute this is sort of a fascinating rural org that solve problem for uh rural rural women which was the majority of the population you

know the population was majority rural when these things first uh happened but these these or these orgs very much in service of the country like it was like the the nation state as a membership was very relevant and ascended. It was growing at that time in the early uh 20th century late 18th or late 19th century and I just don't think it's as relevant to the swath of population. I don't know if it's just, you know, in history things kind of eb and flow. You know, you kind of get a new membership type and it really is solving something specific and it it resonates with people and then over time it needs to adapt or something new merges. Um, so I think that's what these are in the game of of kind of playing around membership.

Though I I I caveat that that I don't want to be too lofty and think that these are, you know, major solutions to this. I think is people are looking for relevant memberships that can, you know, be true to them, feel real to them, but also helpful for them, help them navigate the world and make sense of it and thrive in it. Um, I think that's kind of an open it's an open game at the moment. >> Yeah. And I guess like the the nomadic element of this seems relevant as well, right? Like people like in the start of this movement, you describe yourself as like a digital nomad. I think a lot of digital nomads were attracted to this movement in the early days but at the same time like you describe it or your

your experience has been like a home like you have it's like a home so there's I think uh kind of tension between wanting to travel and wanting to like go to different places in a nomadic way stop at different locations but also like having some permanent physical hubs and I guess once you get into that domain you are getting into the sim similar territory to the men, right? Like how do we what is our role in this jurisdiction? What's the what sort of value do we add and what are all the bylaws and laws and all that that we have to adhere to if we want to genuinely like seriously build a hub? Um so yeah, I think it's all super

relevant. Um, just before we we wrap things up and and kind of pull things to a close, I'm wondering is there anything on that or anything just generally about the Menanites that you want to add that we haven't covered so far? Anything else you want to touch upon? >> Oh, the tangents can abound. Uh, I Yes, I think on that one I think there is these are places. You know, you could think of uh Plumia had an article recently. It's like the internet is a place and that really resonated. I think these these one framing you could think of these is they are kind of like either traveling neighborhoods or maybe another analogy might be they're kind of like

Chinatown like the you know Chinatown is a kind of a ethnic cultural zone that is uh in many places in the world and if you are part of that membership like if you are from that world you can join that thing and it feels like some sense of home in a way. Um, I think these are in a way like that, in some ways more like that because they're smaller. It's very small still. So, when when I go to one of these pop-up villages, I'll see people that I've been seeing for two years in different places. Um, you know, many months we've spent together, both, you know, in person and then online doing, you know, talking, working on things. So, the it does feel like a neighborhood in a way in a weird way.

It's kind of hard to think about it because the mental model of the neighborhood is such that's one thing. Another thread that would be fun maybe for another time uh along these lines is uh another kind of historical analogy we like is the history of the suburb. People don't like the suburbs sometimes da but they are a typology of um um like a pattern of living that emerged that didn't exist. It emerged for certain reasons and those reasons are very interesting. I think it gets into the digital nomad stuff. You don't have cars, you don't have suburbs um or trains um kind of cheap gas. you don't have those like those are downstream of those those kind of technological innovations and roads infrastructure and similarly if you don't have kind of cheap travel people can work from the

computers the internet and kind of growing up on the internet you don't have these things emerging and so the big question I have is like you know similarly it took time for suburb the model to be minted and then you know diffuse around the world and then kind of be figure out that model I think similarly this is going to take time to diffuse and figure out what that model is but I my kind of one my guiding questions is are we more like the suburb model emerging or are we kind of more of a smaller thing that's just a you know maybe a side historical anomaly that doesn't last very long and that's kind of a big puzzle and kind of a fascinating question and I love that I love the idea of like minting a new model as well right like that that feels

really well it feels really important at this moment in history given that we have a lot of existing models and they're really being tested right now so what a time to experiment with minting new ones and uh yeah would definitely love to come back to the suburb piece and maybe we can catch up again in the future and and have another conversation on suburbs. I want to come to you for some last thoughts on like uh the men nights or anything else you want to just to close things off on my side. Um, I want to just say like what I've taken from this conversation more than anything about the Menanites is that it made me realize that we may take the nation state kind of system or the

jurisdictional systems for granted in in their rigidity. But what the Menanites show really is that like if you have a strong negotiating position and a strong community and a strong will then uh and and you act together in the interests of your your community then you know there are there is maybe more flexible than we than it seems right. They show historically that uh with pragmatism that you know they were able to basically grow their community within existing state structures, right? And and um that's kind of inspiring in a way.

>> Yeah. No, I think that's that's why I'm excited about them is they loosen the design space or they make a design space where people might think exists. Like it's kind of easy to think, ah, it's all screwed. D full exit this sort of thing. um or or you know just generally people might feel disgruntled about things but the the truth reality is much messier but in that messiness is kind of hope like you everybody in every jurisdiction has problems and people uh both from like the people who are authorities and leaders in those communities as well as the members of those communities those jurisdictions they want to solve those problems and it's not necessarily always perfect but like an example would be if you were to go to a rural area in let's say Italy or something you know would you and You'd say, "Do you want these

random tech people coming here?" And they'd be like instantly, "No, I don't want those people there." But then you say, "Uh, okay, but how how is this your town been like your village your lifetime?" Oh, it's been it's been declining my whole like it's been amazing when I was younger and it's declining. What do you think will happen with it? I think it will die out because no one's everyone's leaving and d what if these people could come and you might not like them very much at first but they could help revive it or keep it alive and then it's a different you know it might be that's a more nuanced you're actually getting to their problems and and kind of getting to facing the reality of what those options are right and those are the messy situations that are more

nuanced but that's where a lot of you know hope comes from that's where a lot of actual solutions come from and that's the kind of thing that I I think the Menanite show and is is kind of exciting. And one one last thing on the Menanites with that is, you know, they're perfect because there is, as I mentioned before, messiness with them, but also like one of the things that make Waterloo, which is kind of oddly one of Canada's tech capitals. Um, Blackberry is from there. I think Ethereum has partly origins there as well in some sense. It is the Menite. Part of what makes that place so special is the Menanites are around there. You have St. Jacob's farmers market every weekend. It's just neat to see them around. It's uh Yeah, it's quite nice.

>> Love it. Thanks very much for joining us, Chance. I've really really enjoyed this conversation man. >> Yeah, this has been great. Thanks a lot for having me. >> Catch up soon. >> Ciao.