Uniswap's Wallet Details with Callil Capuozzo, Design Lead at Uniswap Labs

Transcript

this out on the App Store so what a big old bully yeah what the heck so we're gonna uh talk about that today who do we have on and what are we discussing uh we were talking to Kelly old capuzzo who is the VP of design at uniswap Labs uh and a while ago I was uh meeting up with Hayden when I moved here moved to New York and he kind of just gave me a little bit of the alpha about what they were working on over at unisoft and this is one of the products that they've been working on for a very long time and that they think that they can do better than the rest of the market of course they think that uh so we're gonna unpack this uh like what about the unit swap wallet is so magical and why is uniswap of all

orgs uh uniswap Labs stepping into the world of the wallet game because that wallet game is very very hot one of the big themes of ethanver is the wallets like uh erc4337 is deployed to ethereum xerion came out with a smart contract or a xerion came out with a browser extension oh yeah that's the other yeah so like Wallace as a subject was a very big part of each Denver and this is one of the bigger announcements in East Denver so to bring ethanbury a little bit to the bankless listener we're bringing one of the bigger announcements out of East Denver to the state of the nation today that's gonna be fun to talk about this uh guys before we get in a few disclaimers number one uniswap is a current bankless sponsor we thank them for that we also hold some uni tokens from way back you can see all of our

disclosures at bankless.com disclosures and also uh the wallet at bankless.eth you can always access that also I want to give a special shout out to our sponsor Kraken Kraken is just a phenomenal exchange it's the exchange that didn't fail you back in 2022 okay remember that they've been serving customers since the early days of crypto and continue to review so uh our recommended exchange for 2023 go check them out we will be right back but before we do we want to thank the sponsors that made this episode possible Kraken has been a leader in the crypto industry for the last 12 years dedicated to accelerating the a global adoption of crypto Kraken puts an emphasis on security transparency and client support

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uh but uniswap has recently unveiled the brand new mobile app we're going to explore that today we're gonna talk about Apple and uh the lengths it's taken it's still a TBD on getting this across the finish line and approved via Tim Cook and the team at Apple to get this in the App Store and talk all about that uh Cal welcome to bankless how you doing great thanks thanks uh great to be here been a long time uh listener you know to the bankless you know what we've been longtime users of uniswap the lab you guys helped build and I understand cal um coming to this I was like hmm we should look up Cal like what's his background he's never been on Bank lists uh somebody somebody called you the Johnny Ive of crypto okay and for those

not familiar I said I said this to David he was like who's Johnny app I'm like Johnny I've the guy who did this this phone thing that's in your hand the iPhone phone like all of these Sleek designs in the early days because I understand uh Cal that you were employee number two something like this at uniswap and responsible for the design the aesthetic the Simplicity of that original unit swap app can you tell us a little bit about your story how you got involved in uniswap and uh you know meeting Hayden and all of these things absolutely absolutely well that's very high praise I you know I got a few more years to go maybe a lot a lot more to be that but yeah but I'll tell you a little the background um so I've known Hayden for a long time uh basically we were we

grew up together um our families knew each other back back when we were little kids so it's been a long time um my background is in design you know I went to a school for industrial design and then after that worked in the tech industry um uh doing like new and experimental products uh and you know during that time I was kind of seeing around me you know the benefits and drawbacks of these Tech Nines we know today right um and I was also seeing you know friends of mine that I knew from art school from design school who were trying to make a living you know expressing themselves on the platforms that these Tech Giants kind of uh had and I got started to get really interested in sort of questioning like why is it that you know my friend who's making the most amazing you know

paintings are like a really cool chair why do they have to like post that work up for likes right why is that the mechanism that they need to use to get exposure so that's sort of what started my like you know questioning these systems um and I started to look for for things out in the world that sort of were starting to to to think about that and so my first sort of touch point for for crypto it wasn't really crypto is more about decentralized publishing which um we today we know as like ipfs and things like blue sky and kind of more the social side of things um but very quickly sort of of like those worlds started to merge right and uh Hayden and I reconnected you know after we had both done done our things and our careers uh at a Meetup in New York City

for NYC mesh which is like a community-owned Mesh networking ISP and he showed me the first prototype of what uniswap would become which you should all look up by the way it's on a blog post that we have it's like this amazing blue unit flying unicorn crazy site can we find that how would we find that so look up the unit swap blog look up the like story of uniswap there's one that's like our history you can probably search like uniswap history blog and uh scroll a little bit down there's a picture of that first site online I think I'm finding it here a short history of gonna Swap this yes exactly yep I remember that one yeah no dude I don't remember this oh I remember that that's it would you remember that neon text yeah yeah so

little so this is the the first little uh history is that this is the pretty Johnny Ive the pre Johnny I've okay Hayden was the first unit swap designer you know in addition to being he was he was the first of everything um but you know in a lot of funny ways like the the ethos and like the spirit of uniswap here you know that's what we tried to bring it's similar Vibe like yeah you have the kind of the funky like neon the pinks the use of these like unicorn like colors uh yeah it's similar Vibe yeah and and you know I'll be honest with you when I first saw this oh yeah this is also so another thing to kind of note at the times that this was what the standard experience for exchanging tokens I do remember this so for the podcast listeners we are now

looking at the infamous ether Delta which much more looks like a traditional centralized exchange with uh a terrible ux UI but if for those that didn't actually use ether Delta on chain it was the worst U.S fairly functional I'm barely functional it was like three transactions to get your assets just loaded up available oh my God and it was it was if you ever traded on ether Delta you probably deserve a poet you were early you were unequivocally early AF yeah what do you deserve you're an OG if you were if you know this you know you're an OJ OG ethereum for sure truly truly OG and I think you know Hayden's genius in a way

is that he recognized how crappy that was right like not only did he have the awareness to like you know go read a vitalik's post think really deeply about exchange but also had the awareness to be like wow this ux sucks this is terrible um so so yeah to continue the story like this is this was the context that we started talking and um we you know I offered to help it was very casual I I barely understood it to be honest with you um and initially we built yeah you can keep scrolling a little bit to get to that first UI I think uh keep going a little bit uh yeah keep going it's very long here um yeah there's shirts there's a lot of history you know yada yada he works he works at optimism

above and hidden down below yeah let's go we're going we're speed around the history of the history I love it I love it this is a long long it's not here oh oh it's not here um I'm trying to think there there is an old version online uh which we'll I'll find some point you guys can actually search probably V1 unit swap in Google and I'm sure it'll it'll come up all right for it cool sure sure yeah so so yeah those early days you know it was very casual and and uh we were just kind of experimenting in the way we worked together was that you know I had a studio a lot like the one I'm sitting in now maker Studio kind of Vibes and I was doing some freelance work and some other ethereum things and at you know here and there over text and

Hayden would come over at like late at night and we'd just like jam for hours honestly uh make you know developing what we know as like the swap UI today and it took a long time and I think the initial Innovation you know like I said design is this kind of iterative thing I you really have to like throw things at the wall and and explore but there are like core sort of ideas that that you're trying to kind of uh shape right so there's a notion and design of this idea of like a mental model right I'm sure you all know what that means but it's really important when you're doing design work to be giving people a mental model that's very clear if you look back at that ether Delta image you know there's a lot of different input boxes there isn't like a framework for

thinking about something the innovation of the swap UI is the input output right it sounds kind of dumb and simple but really having that mental model of like give this get that um wasn't obvious at the time um and it was only through some sort of experimentation that we kind of uh landed on that and constraint right we were me and Hayden and then eventually um a few a contractor we hired to do development and then eventually Noah and then you know unisop team but it was really a small team in those early days um and that's what drove the constraint as well to get to the Simplicity yeah I'm really enjoying this perspective because I think uh Cal I'm just learning as we're talking right now about just like what it means to be a designer in the world of crypto I also appreciate

the carpentry tools in the background a designer across all uh all respects um what your job is is like there's this technology smart contracts uh x times y equals K pricing algorithms amms and it's your job to get that technology expressed up to the user in a way they're like oh I'm landing on this page I've never been here before app.uniswap uh or uniswap.app and then all of the design is actually illustrative and communicative of the smart contracts that underlie these things and so can you just like make it maybe like walk us through your design brain your like your thought process as you were learning about because we were all learning about

uniswap all at the same time every I remember the I remember the two weeks in crypto where uniswap came on the scene and it was the Talk of the Town and everyone was trying to figure out why and it was really that one very very elegant pricing curve it was the like a it was the x times y equals K pricing model but then also just the automated Market maker design as a whole can you talk about as a designer put us in your designer brain and talk about like your thought process like what you needed to do to your job to do your job of allowing these smart contracts to express themselves yeah absolutely and I think you set that up really well because it really is about understanding the smart contract right and um you know in those early days I read the white paper right it didn't mean I

understood it I didn't understand deeply the math right the curve math but what I did understand you know by also talking with Hayden it started to unpack like the higher level abstractions right and you could start to think about when you see the parts of the system that a user touches those are the moments that are really really important right and as a designer you start to get a you know the more you read the more you talk to a solidity engineer or people who are working on this stuff that should be your question right like what is the moment that a user touches this thing right and let's talk about you know that input box literally right because a lot of crypto design at the end of the day this is going to sound reductive but I don't I actually mean this kind of in a

good way is a lot about making great form inputs right but making intuitive um sort of ideas and framing input boxes right for for users and then going one level deeper is like abstracting that input abstracting the level of control that users have out into more uh mental models that are that are simpler right so if you read the uniform white paper it doesn't describe you know two input boxes right that's not how it describes it but it does describe a pool that has two assets right and so like those are the moments that you have to start to uh question and think about and the last thing I'll say just to try to keep it real brief is like the designer's job is to understand a system and then we are

the advocates for users and we try to reflect uh people's understanding at the time of the world around them so the the patterns we use are best practices and when I choose an input box in a design and I make it feel like other input boxes that you see on the web what I'm doing is giving people that little handhold to hold on to so that they can take the things they've learned in technology and bring it to a new system right and that's really the designer's job is knowing when to give make people comfortable give them hand holds of things that look familiar and recognizable and when to push them a little farther into new systems yeah yeah

I I know uh one of my takes on this when I first understood uniswap was like wow this reminds me of Google the Simplicity of Google and like from the days of of sort of the early web where we had like interfaces that looked like this like this is Alta Vista like back in the 90s yeah also Vista ether Delta you know yeah exactly it's like and this is The Ether Delta basically and uh what did Google do this was one of their first uh interfaces from 1999 one simple search box and that's kind of the level of abstraction that the uh you know the uh uniswap interface provided so um you know Well Done Mr Johnny I've that that's a fantastic way to appreciate the design here yeah okay so so uniswap is doing a wallet and we should say this is

coming from uniswap Labs which uh as we understand is a separate entity that is not the same as the protocol so there's the protocol which is basically smart contracts and a uni token that is a separate thing and then there's this company like a us-based company being called uniswap Labs that is building building all sorts of crypto tooling some of which is related to the protocol some of which is not and this wallet is coming out of of that company of of tool makers is that correct that's what uniswap labs is that's correct yeah and you know maybe it's just a little too strong but to continue the analogy you know this way we see it is like Google built on HTTP right and tcpip they built on protocols and and what they did was like index that protocol right that's

what that UI was made was made for it to do right and like we see uniswap's Labs role as like building these great consumer experiences on top of these you know the universal protocol and other things right in the wallet today we support ens right we're taking advantage of this open platform that that we can build on to do more yeah really cool so tell us why a wallet why did you go down this path uh why did why did you have the odd we have wallets in crypto yeah I also had wallets yeah tell us why a wallet yeah why wallet well I mean the the story is fairly simple uh you know at the end of the day basically because we build this interface that that was very simple uh

we found growth right we found product Market fit for that specific tool and what we started to hear from users is all of the pain points of using crypto today so what happens many if if any of you out there listening have worked at you know dap companies I'm sure what you've found is that the number one thing for customer support is wallet pain points so uniswap Labs uniswap what we hear most often is the problems that users have not with the protocol not with the app but with the wallets themselves so for the past few years Hayden and I have always wanted to solve this right we always felt like oh man like all these problems that you know a lot of this has been solved today but back in the day like tokens not

appearing in your in your wallet after you swap them like that's ridiculous that is so simple right but that was a big pain point and continues actually to be for many people and so we knew these problems existed we knew that we could do great ux you know from our experience in in the on the app and we thought that we are like no better Prime to be the people because we understood it because we know people's pain points to be delivering a great wallet to people and So cal um I think the question that people all have that I certainly have is that in what ways is you in a swap innovating on the wallet on the wallet landscape well like where are the pain points that uniswap is trying to smooth over so if

if we had ether Delta and then we had uniswap on the amm and you fix that problem uh are you a place that or is that the same mental model that we should apply here like if the current landscape of wallets is ether Delta where are we going where's the future of ux going inside it and how is your top leading us there yeah that's that's a great question and I think the day just to caveat this to say like where we are today with wallets is a lot better than we where we were with with uh decentralized exchanges back then um but we you know Unison Labs wants to be in that conversation because we have you know a world-class protocol engineering team um who can innovate on you know smart contract wallets and safes and all this kind of stuff and we really want to be

in that conversation because we think we have something to add um yeah on the ux side you know so there's a bunch of things we're doing in our wallet that some other people do but we think we deliver as like a great package especially for like swapping users specifically um things like you know showing assets across all chains instantly right or all the streams that use swap supports instantly um making that data really reliable and robust and accurate um you know doing push notifications that are real time after swaps so that you are confident about the swap that you're actually doing um in your wallet and making a onboarding uh kind of process and a backup process that you know if you really don't care about it you don't have to see a seed phrase ever right you

can just rely on the system that we we kind of have built that's super secure and very safe um to get on board and get started uh swapping wait what is that system uh basically when you get started you know you can back up to iCloud um in addition to backing up on a paper you know you know uh Becky receipt phrase on paper so you can kind of choose pick and choose and you know these days I am still kind of a privacy and security Maxine I don't necessarily like recommend that everybody should be backing stuff up to iCloud it's really a user should choose that but if you're just getting started in crypto you know for most people who are not super tech literate who are just getting started we should be offering things like this yeah

it's better than using your seed phrase like losing your seed phrase like which is what a crypto uh Noob can do so if you don't feel comfortable maintaining yeah Steve that then maybe you have to do that I I will remind focusing that of course that um Apple iCloud because I just looked into this um it's not um end-to-end encrypted so that's right that means it is but Apple has um the keys as well so they could if they wanted to they could kind of go in there and Joint your funds uh one thing we've done to like help with this is we've actually gave it gave users additional level of security on top of just iCloud so when you do an iCloud backup you actually have to set a

personal passphrase on the backup right so iCloud Apple would have to you know somehow get that personal passphrase to even unlock the account so you're encrypting it before you back it up into right Cloud correct oh yes that's correct okay yeah so that's better yeah so we've really like like I said like our team is like really really um careful and very specific when we offer things like this we're not yoloing you know at times it means that we're like still you know like doing you know we're so little maybe like behind the pure pure meta of like 4437 right exactly you know for example but we're really really particular and careful to make sure that the tools we're giving people are a truly like bankless experience right that we're not putting

people into a position that would compromise um security if another part of the system was compromised we're definitely going to talk about four three three seven and smart contract while it's not sort of thing we're also we want a demo of this uh in a few minutes but before you get there I want to ask we're just talking about iCloud can let's talk about Apple for a minute okay yeah so I I um woke up to this a little bit I was like not doing crypto things all weekend which is unusual for me but uh on Monday I woke up to uh some stories uh I was seeing and I'd heard this uh by the by you know through the rumor mill Etc that Apple was blocking is active kind of blocking uniswap from launching its self-custodial wallet and really that the uniswap team had been given no

reason and my immediate reaction to that is like assuming that's true we can kind of like validate that with you maybe maybe today it's like man I'm so tired of our technical overlords gatekeeping the internet like who are you Tim cooker Apple to say that this specific self-custodial wallet is okay and this is not right and um I'm wondering if if that is indeed a true story has Apple been actively blocking uniswap from deploying its wallet because as I understand it going into this conversation it you cannot go into the Apple iOS Store and download it there is maybe a test flight link that

we can talk about in a minute but they've been blocking you it's not because the app's not ready it's because you just haven't been able to get through The Gatekeepers can you tell us about this yeah yeah happy to um yeah so so you're right that's that's where we're at uh it's a test flight right now um we're I would say the way to frame it is that we're in dialogue with apple this you know it's not a no go no go like sort of blocked purely blocked thing it's a conversation that we're having um and we also understand that many other you know daf developers in the space have also run into similar issues with apple and the kind of like phrase that I I've been using is it almost feels like we're we're like playing by a rule book that we can't read right and

that's like a pretty tough place to be in as an organization you know a company that's investing money in building this you know investing people's time in this kind of stuff right and so it's definitely reminded us as an organization you know on the positive side like why we got into this in the first place you know why we're building on open platforms open protocols you know things without this kind of gatekeeper in the way I think you know to I am her optimistic about this I hope that Apple kind of sees the light I think that uniswap as an example in other companies out there are examples of like great safe crypto experiences right safe and secure crypto experiences and that's kind of why you know in addition to being a great

developing platform that's why we want to be on the Apple App Store Right is because we're actually aligned with their goal of keeping users safe right we have token warnings in the app that don't block but warn you we have great you know backups and Recovery we like give you access to you know pretty above board sort of things and so we want to be in that playing in that world and we just hope that Apple sees it that way as well uh so far we'll see I I think there's two different conversations here about uh apps in the Apple Store as it relates to crypto uh Cal you you said uh playing by a rule book that you can't read my into but also that apple is in conversations with you guys so it's not like things are frozen or bad and it kind of just seems

like my my intuition here is that apple is probably also confused and learning how to do this right like okay crypto apps unprecedented amount of crypto scams new risk dependencies that they've never ever had to like meaningfully thought of uh and then there's also things like okay how does Apple chat charges 30 tax and I think there's probably two routes here like one there might be some set of features that Apple's like hey we want thirty percent and then there's another set of features for like hey we need to make sure it's legit and not a scam and not like fgx and what what is our responsibilities here is that is would you say that that's a fair summary of the problem set here yeah I think that's exactly right basically and and it's true you know

this is it is a new industry and just understand like the mechanisms of apple and the review team you know their distributed team they have a lot of different people who review apps and it's complicated you know I have to give it to them like it's a complicated world right um that being said it's the their application of their system is very very inconsistent okay which of the units maybe the answer is both which of the features inside of the uniswap a wallet do you think has offended Apple uh great question it's the Unicorn it's the Unicorn that's right yeah I mean look like to be honest we actually like this is really honest like we don't exactly know which specific issue it is

right we get through this whole process which to be honest has been months we've gotten actually different answers almost every time and it seems like the answers they are giving are changing you know as they get more information as they learn more but also it's confusing yeah okay so just put us in the perspective of unit swap as it's going through this when you guys get an answer back from Apple I don't know what it's like to push an apple an app through test flight or whatnot sometimes if I have a support ticket like it's a different person answering the support ticket and so like it's just chaotic just because it's a different person how coherent is this relationship yeah um without like going into too many details that isn't that is something that has happened you know it's it you

don't always talk to the same person um but I will say at this point you know again not to go too far into it I think we are now at a point where having more consistent conversations so um we really hope to work through it soon yeah why isn't guys isn't this whole thing kind of stupid I'm like I'm sorry I just like on the on the actual public internet you can deploy things without going through support tickets and asking for somebody's permission who has to take the time to understand the industry to figure out if this is a scam or not like I'm just kind of sad that we've gotten to this point where the computers that we hold in our pockets are still so gay kept it is not the free open internet

this is not TCP this is the Apple App Store whose governance layer is Apple shareholders essentially and like that's not the way it should be uh I this is just a rant nothing anyone can solve but we're hearing this from a lot of um I think crypto developers organizations trying to go through the App Store that like things have really cooled post 2022 and FTX like that has put a pause where people are everything in crypto must be a scam because of FDX and because of uh you know uh dokwan and Luna and Tara and I think that's put a chill on it and then they also they don't know what their their business model is and so they're just kind of in the state of of

not knowing what to do and so they're by default freezing everything is that consistent yeah and maybe one more thing to add there too is not only you know is it confusing we have also seen here and there you know scam apps make it through right so not only you know is the system that we're talking about you know a little bit non-transparent it's hard to understand the rules but even with that level of gatekeeping even with the system is in place there are still harmful things making it through and I think that's an example of when the system starts to fail and part of you know why we're all working in this industry yeah uh so what bankless listeners don't see Cal is that you've actually logged into the zoom here with your phone uh and so we are going to

take a peek at the uh at the actual unit swap wallet in a hot second as soon as we come back from these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible right uniswap is the largest on-chain Marketplace for self-custody digital assets uniswap is of course a decentralized exchange but you know this because you've been listening to bankless but did you know that the uniswap web app has a shiny new Fiat on-ramp now you could go directly from Fiat in your bank to tokens in defy inside of uniswap not only that but polygon arbitrum and optimism layer twos are supported right out of the gate but that's just D5 uniswap is also an nft aggregator letting you find more listings for the best prices across the

nft world with uniswap you can sweep floors on multiple nfts and uniswap's Universal router will optimize your gas fees for you uniswap is making it as easy as possible to go from bank account to bankless assets across ethereum and we couldn't be more thankful for having them as a sponsor so go to app.uniswap.org today to buy sell or swap tokens and nfts the Phantom wallet is coming to ethereum the number one wallet on Solana is bringing its millions of users and beloved ux to ethereum and polygon if you haven't used Phantom before you've been missing out Phantom was one of the first wallets to Pioneer Solana staking inside the wallet and will be offering similar staking features for ethereum and polygon but that's just staking

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bought a coven if you were following me on Twitter I think it's great uh it's my first pink wallet Cal can you really just like walk us through and take us a peek under the hood for us and show us what this wall can really do absolutely happy to um so I'm going to be sharing for my phone here so uh the thing I'm going to show first is a little bit of the onboarding experience um just because I think it's important so I'll show this briefly and then actually I have to type a password so I'm going to stop and then reshare in a second but it's worth worth going through so one of the key things that happens here when you get started in the in the wallet is that there's a few options you can create a new one you know this is where you you do start with

a recovery phrase you can import an existing one uh right so from from any other wallet that you can export seed phrase from um and you can add a view only wallet so if somebody gets their hand on this test flight and you don't feel comfortable with security add your view on your wallet just paste your public address your ens name in you can see it and experience it before you try before buy sort of thing if you are comfortable which you know we all are uh at unit swap you know I put my my seed phrase in all the developers are in where like the app is done it's not a beta you know it's ready to be launched we're still just in this thing with Apple so just that and then I did want to show this sort of restore from iCloud thing you

know like I said it's a a passphrase but when I do this um so essentially it'll detect that I have a backup uh to to get so let me just stop here so I'm going to stop sharing put my password in and then uh I'll show you the next yeah I'll show you the next screen your password you know uh if people want to uh you know the OG multi-sig right [Laughter] so you're trusting this to back up your your stuff too yeah this is a real password man right yes it's it's uh it's real I mean that's what I said about the iCloud the security and backup uh this sort of um you know I trust you you encrypt it

before you encrypt it exactly so what I'm doing right now is actually um using my encrypted using my passphrase to unencrypt right the backup essentially uh so you're already logged into you're already authenticated an iPad on your phone and then you're just putting in your own password exactly you control exactly so here's what's something really cool we do is that we actually Auto detect all uh addresses that are derived from a seed phrase that have a balance and Auto uh select them for you so I can go and continue here right you can see iCloud backup I can add a manual backup and I can even learn about what a recovery phrase is uh continue so I'll turn on notifications here

um and then also turn on face ID for security and I'm in so okay the face ID I've seen with other wallets means that the actual uh private keys for these wallets is held in this a clear Enclave for the phone is that what's going on here yep and uh we've done uh we've kind of done a really good job sort of lowering like taking that part of the security model like to a lower part of the stack and and written in Rust so it's not happening in react native like the engineering of this thing is really robust and secure and we're thinking about that detail you can learn about this by the way while it's open source which is pretty cool you can learn about how it's built the whole stack you can Fork it it's out there and so whoever's

like if someone's really into it uh Fork it you know um you got to do a bunch of some of your own work around the data layer but you know it's out there uh the original what's the original and see if we can get it into the App Store what color should our wallet let's do both bankless red red yes so one one feature that we uh taught didn't talk about but we definitely have seen is that there you can manage multiple wallets inside the wall uh so this is not a you open up this wallet and you can add more wallets too and you so you can manage multiples all at the same time right right um right now this we only support one uh C phrase multiple C phrase support coming soon um we just wanted to make sure we're like really good at what we do so you

know that'll be coming soon but off the same phrase I can now go through these wallets right and I can just tap between and it's pretty easy um this is my main you know public wallet my ens you guys can look on it at it uh quickly we we really focus on making things swipeable right um to to get easy access to to like all your assets um in your wallet uh you can just quickly go to the nfts that you have view them um you know look at the latest activity um it's all across optimism Arboretum polygon right now um and so all the assets that I have across all those chains are just right there what you have some hex cow you didn't see anything don't you know actually they they they did have some airdrop I don't know I just don't know

yeah I think the biggest thing that I noticed standing out here is the little chain indicators below each of the assets so you have optimistic eth for ether and uh and then that's got the little red circle uh then you have a normal ethereum and also arbitrome ethereum um yeah and that's what it when when I I saw this wallet for the first time that's really the thing that noticed and stood out to me and as we all know like we are moving into the multi-chain future multi-layer twos uh we're already talking about super chains and layer threes is there do you have a plan Cal for how you plan to tackle all this stuff yeah um so the way we we think about it at uniswap is that we love the multi-chain future we love l2s um

especially evm l2s we think it is part a big big part of the future of all this stuff and when we think about um assets you know the ultimate vision is that you should never really have to unless if you do if you don't want to like touch a chain a network switcher again right um all apps should be across all chains um you know it should be seamless it should have the indicator so that you understand the security model you're opting into when you do that but at the end of the day you know that should be available for you and um what's something we're working towards the multi-chain future can we talk about nfts so first of all swipe over to nfts if you will um show us like what what are these things what is that mushroom

head thing the Mushroomhead all right this is a shroomio um you know tapping on it pretty pretty nice you get a little uh preview of the image um you'll notice here there's also a small button that actually shows the floor price of the this collection and nice you have some details around here if I click on that uh something we're working on the next release will have a much more improved version of this but you actually can explore the collection as well and so you can go through um find different uh trumanos and actually see some details about this collection at the same time now do you guys offer nft kind of trading functionality inside of the app right now because I know uniswap Labs is doing something big in the nft aggregation realm with um the company you just bought yeah that's right

um so we now have if you go to the new swap web app we have an nft tab that is basically a Marketplace aggregating all the major nft marketplaces and getting you great prices for uh buying and selling nfts um right now on the wallet it's view only so we don't offer the actual like functionality of the marketplace um you know maybe one day we can kind of up in the air a little bit based on this apple conversation yeah yeah this is uh I'm guessing going back to the Apple conversation already had this is the the conversation that like apple would like probably enjoy their 30 cake on this one this is probably I'm guessing that's the that that conversation is that right absolutely absolutely um and I know that it's a broader conversation like the

whole industry is in that same conversation right now right how does how does Apple think it can do that 30 like how do they think they can charge 30 tax on nfts I don't understand how that's sustainable it's a great question and one one thing that we think about is so just I'd like to zoom out for a second like what we believe is like we have to build the best user experience possible so that people love these experiences and then go to Apple and advocate for the access to them right like it won't only be the uh company that has you know the end the the The Leverage with apple it'll also be if we can build you know great safe user experiences um that people love that will also ultimately be a big part of the leverage

for Apple to start considering this technology as serious so user demand uh okay so um Can people Cal get this right now uh there is I believe a test flight version of it so we can't find the Snapple um store right now in the app store that's right some sort of a test flight version and for the people kind of watching this or listening are they able to access that or is that limited um so we'll have a link at the end of the show that you can uh go and download it'll be a little bit limited I think the the test flight invite will have a hundred um 100 links on it but first time our viewers get your QR code thing um ready you know and uh basically scan it but if you follow our

Twitter uh get on our Discord we're slowly inviting more um we really want people to be uh like engaged and give us feedback because we're learning right so we're learning about what makes wild great what people want to see and what's kind of you know a good thing about this beta program or this is this sorry the test flight program is that we have an opportunity to kind of hear from you and so get on it um grab grab an invite and message us and teach us what we need to know Cal just swapped sold op for ether on optimism chain and wow I can't believe you would do that to the optimism team you can trade on other layer twos and on the ethereum main chance to do that

natively in the app can you trade from arbitrum to optimism or vice versa or what about this world great great question not yet not yet um that's something we obviously are working on it would be if we would be foolish not to um but it's something we want to get right the first time right um we think that Crossing bridging is challenging uh to do it right and uh you know down on the wall and tell us if you want it right I know that I do I think that is something that uh we really believe in and and want to bring to it but we wanted to like make sure we got the basics of of swapping the way they are on the web app down uh to start so that we're starting just with uh you know swapping on on each individual chain right because I know I know of two

different decks and Bridge aggregator aggregators that would love to be your guys's service provider if the uh if you guys were open to that I'm sure uh but this isn't a an issue about apple right this that's just a uniswap tech conversation yep exactly exactly okay yeah cool a lot of this conversations that's just like poking around like all right where is Apple coming in here and then where is actually ethereum limitations coming in here what is that which one's holding us back what's the big heart at the top the big heart so one of the pretty unique features about the wallet is that um you can actually start we're starting to step into a little bit of the social ethereum World here and so you'll notice I have two favorite wallets um either of you have an ens that I can put in here

uh David hoffman.eath brother David hoffman.eath right so this is you I don't know why that ens name is not resolving it should that's something I haven't done that yet uh I see but you can see I can actually search you uh go through and find you know you're going to look at those Collectibles yeah yeah and I can even go and see the entire uh collection here right so there's no way that that was the sound plays correct oh I don't know because that is a music and as a podcast not yet but that's something I know feature request David future requests feature request um and then you know let's say I'm curious about the what you're doing on

chain right I can see your activity but you know I can see the uh the uh crypto cover you bought but I can favorite basically and and favorite your wallet and now if I go back to my explore screen you'll be here for me to jab is a tap away and I can also do that with tokens right so if I go to blur I hit favorite up here give it a second okay so that's why yeah yeah yeah you know uh I got all my my d-gen wallet no no uh it's just we're just showing you on-chain data yeah so so that's kind of the system that uh we're setting up and we're kind of like starting to test around favorites and around making a dashboard that reflects the way you use you know uh crypto and

you'll see a lot lot more of this uh this is our you know MVP first iteration of this um you'll see stuff with nfts coming soon you'll see more rich and complex ways of seeing the chain um in that form and then last thing just to feature wise you know we have send receive we have a beautiful design for different wallets that pops up um if you you know switch around so depending on the wallet I'm on it'll actually like steam it and then last thing is uh we of course support wallet connect right so actually let's see if I go back to this other wallet I think I don't know how many connected but what will happen is if I connect to a um adapt right in that connection it'll say Nine Connections you can manage it you you can actually have multiple dap

connections across multiple networks at the same time so you're never you don't have to change the entire wallet the way you have to do in metamask to be connected to a change so that reflects our kind of belief in the multi-chain future so uh and you see this really cool time can we just yeah can you can I mean we need to send this to Apple like they need to hear that this is a pretty pretty uh Sleek user experience and uh that uh the uniswap labs team is not a bunch of scammers uh these guys are legit they build a fantastic useful product and this is a a an ask to Apple to release the app I think there's a ton of people in the bankless community who actually want this

um yeah I don't anyone listens but they should be so so definitely we got some apple listeners for sure uh Cal can you just maybe just run us through a bunch I'm assuming there's like a bunch of small things that you want here's a list that I can come up in my head um like a total total wallet value chart over time like features like this what what else is coming down the pipeline that you can just talk about yeah great question good question um yeah so of course like more analytics around uh assets you know uh for instance you know being able to see past uh buys and sells on a different asset we want to improve the the actually the history a lot more um you know you don't we don't think you should always have to go to ethoscan if

you don't want to we want to be able to show transactions in a very legible way and the number one request we've got from early beta testers is uh dap browser um so look out for that soon and I think uh there's some really other really deep cool stuff that we've been exploring um that aligns with sort of you know I think the broader industry social vision for uh for crypto around ens names and connectivity and all that kind of stuff uh but of course we want to do the basics right uh soon so and then you know the last thing too just mentioned I know we talked a little bit about this I don't know how much time we have left but just the world of smart contract wallets um tiny little leak you know that we haven't said publicly before but just

the first few months of building this wallet we did build a smart contract wallet as a prototype and it's not something that we're ready to put out into the world we want to be a part of the broader four three through seven conversation and like be working with the industry but just that that's one of the reasons we really wanted to build this wallet is because we have those protocol Engineers in-house who are like top of the top right and we have a lot to say about what that future might look like right this was the other main big um announcement that happened at East Denver at wallacon was uh for erc4337 not eip437 was that deployed as a smart contract on ethereum which opened up smart Contracting enable enable capabilities Cal is that like

that ERC that's my contract on the layer one that's already deployed is that what is related to the Future potential uniswap smart contract wallet or is that a different set of innovations that also needs to come down the pipeline well I would say that that is you know I think Union swap you know the protocol and our involvement with like ethereum and in the dev Community we we want to be really tight right we want to be contributing to that conversation and we want to be contributing to standards I think that we're we're not interested in like going and building our own you know a little bubble we that's why we open source the wallet that's why we open source um the web app and all the you know all the work that we do and so if you know when we talk about smart contract

wallets or whatever um definitely we would be part of that as well yeah um so zooming out uh just really quickly because we started this conversation as like oh what unit swap Labs service provider on top of you know the unit swap protocol uh we also talked about the design of ether Delta to where we are today which the much more elegant design of uniswap and all the other dexes um well a little fun fact that we haven't covered in is like the uniswap uh ux the trading interface has been like forked a ton of times uh because it's seemingly the best kind of way to illustrate a DEX um but but Cal can you just connect us the with this product and the rest of what units lab Labs is doing so like now we kind of have gotten a peek under the

hood we see what you're up to we see what Unison Labs is do let's Zoom all the way back out and go back up to the unit swap Labs level yeah what is unit swap Labs doing like what is it what is the North Star for uniswap labs totally uh so you know our our company mission is to unlock Universal ownership in exchange that's sort of our top level you know guiding North Star um for us that looks like you know uh iterating and sort of improving the very core you know marketplaces and access to assets um innovating on you know the protocol innovating on other things like the universal router and which gives like users great prices and and the cool thing recently has been like integrating our learnings about sorry getting a little deep deep in technical stuff but

integrating learnings about tokens and bringing that into the world of nft so that all of a sudden digital assets are not siled by you know their their asset type right I should be able to yeah I should be able to swap any any erc20 for any nft and and vice versa and this this world is the one we believe in and then alongside that is just yeah increasing you know access right and and so that's what the wallet is about for us you know uh in addition to the things I said about making it easier to use um use ethereum easier to use crypto and we think we have a long way to go uh there's a lot a lot a lot of innovation that still has to happen but uh we want to be a platform uh that you can come to as a new user you know get started in

under two minutes and have the same security you know not give away your security right you should have your rights you should own your stuff we will never give that up we'll always like maintain people's security and privacy as a first class piece of the system but it should be as easy to use as any other um you know system out there with with familiar logins with familiar things like that um and so that's our vision you know we really want to make it easy and make it better so on this vision and and the future of wallets that you see so you were talking earlier about smart contract wallets and we talked briefly about erc4337 I'm not yet sure if I understand erc4337 which is kind of this uh this account abstraction standard on top of

ethereum that is now live and active like it just seemed to come out of nowhere and I'm I'm curious as like uh we haven't seen this on the user interface side sort of expressed and so everything that we saw on the uniswap wallet there with with erc4337 or smart contract while the future like what actually improves about the user experience yep yeah so right now we're building we have it as an eoa and we started there because that's what most people have DOA is externally owned account which simply put it's the opposite of a smart contract wallet it's the wall that you probably have listener it's the interesting face thing is your C phrase thing yeah yep thanks for for helping me there um so what will change

in the smart contract wallet World okay so there's a there's a little bit of a complexity here is that like you said this is a uh it's not a change to ethereum yet right but it may be in the future but the but even in the world today if I had a smart contract wallet here's a few things that could happen first of all I could log in with a phone number or email or really sign up with a phone number or email um in addition to adding another layer of secure of security like an on-device um um like in the Hardware security model on your device right and when I signed up for a wallet or or login for with an email or a phone number I would use basically a two-factor or passwordless Loop to authenticate my wallet my contract wallet basically

um and in that way I can actually secure the you know a part of of the smart contract wallet um in you know by using this Loop and on device and the Really Innovative thing there is that the a smart contract wallet basically is a system where if I want to do an action as a user all I need to do is sign with the security that I've added right so I might sign with my face ID plus my login account right and in that way I can submit that signature to a relayer who will start to do things on my behalf that could be things like recover the wallet right I could add either individuals or I could

add other devices that helped me recover the wallet I could also do things like pay for a transaction in any token that I have in my wallet right so I could even onboard with a phone number top up through a Fiat on-ramp with usdc and do my first transaction all in a very short time frame by delegating some of these actions to the relayers right so I don't have to go through the process of buying eth for instance I don't have to go through the process uh all these complicated processes so that's like a little story that will be possible in the future with these smart contract wallets in addition to other things kind of is possible now with erc4337 yep yep um you can actually try some of these

while it's on chain right now um there's a few of them out there that I've done sort of the demos of this and then the metaphor that I use to really explain because everyone explained smart contract while it's in a different way and they usually do it with explaining some certain story right like you know those whole approvals before you trade a token on uniswap well you can actually combine them together because of smart contract walls you know like gases trading where like a different account can pay for your gas you can do that with smart contract wallets everyone is like doing the whole let's explain what a smart contract wallet is by feeling the different parts of the elephant the way that I've tried to explain like what the elephant actually is is like think of an eoa an externally owned account as a Bitcoin wallet as in it's a dumb

stupid input output calculator wallet no offense Bitcoin sorry um and then a smart contract wallet is an ethereum wallet as in it's a wallet with a chip in it it's a turing complete wallet it's a general like smart contract enabled wallet and so your wallet is now smart and most people like that once they figure that out their brain breaks and they realize that only one half of ethereum is unlocked and smart contract while it's like unlock the other half um this is just the metaphor that I use my like my way of explaining that is like coming from the other direction of like a non-cryptonative who's like a seed phrases are dumb why do I need those this is stupid and complicated this is why venmo is better and crypto

sucks and this gives the US parody basically with the venmo style account recovery wallet except it's completely self-sovereign which is a huge design uh user experience upgrade yep and and you know I might have done the best job explaining it but a further more like what's really beautiful about the system is that depending on how you implement it the user gets to choose their own security model right we've been talking about at uniswap this idea of like a progressive wallet experience for a little bit which is the idea that like when you first on board and you put your first hundred dollars in your wallet you probably don't you don't require the same amount of security you do as if when you have ten thousand dollars in the wallet right and users should be

able to kind of like we should be able to give users that security and the upgrade the security over time as they get deeper into crypto into ethereum without forcing them to deal with this very complex thing up front and that's like a really key I think that will be really key to making these things more intuitive and what's really cool about this is it'll allow you to do things like over time set spending limits on the wallet over time put specific nfts in a specialized Vault that's a smart contract wallet owns and only you know be able to spend them with two-factor real true two-factor authentication on an authi app right imagine I could do that with my most valuable nft that I could only send it once I put that code in from authy I mean that's pretty cool this is hugely bullish overall I think

that the overall theme and we're talking uh about the uniswap wallet today but the overall theme for crypto natives is is we are entering the Golden Age of wallets right it's about to get a lot better barely even scratched the service we talk a lot about like what's holding crypto back from a scalability perspective and for so long it's been uh more transactions per second each gas fees are too high all of these things that's still a factor that we're solving with layer twos another like less talked about reason we haven't been able to scale crypto is our user experience ain't all that good right it still takes a lot of effort like your mom can't use this grandma can't use this uh I don't know if Grandma will be able to use the uni swap wallet but you know your mom

can at least and uh so this this this really is a huge upgrade and ultimately allows us to scale crypto out to more users and more people going bankless is what we're all here for Cal thank you so much for this conversation really cool to see and uh we're cheering you guys on in the uh the conversation let's call it not a battle conversation with uh apple and uh your gatekeeping web 2 companies here thank you so much it's a pleasure oh we promised one thing though before we let you go can we show that QR code because I want to scan it um wallet yet uh so I'm gonna erase everybody so give us the context are there a hundred invites for this thing

right now I believe so I believe this link is going to be a hundred um so scan away and then like it you know like I mentioned earlier uh follow us on Twitter get on the Discord I think you know we don't have that many more there's a cap to how many people we can actually add to the uh test flight but um we'll get you on yeah how to steady we'll get you on and uh so then you scan it and then when you uh view it and then you scan it start testing so yeah what that'll do is give bring you to a web page um that says you know you know start testing you have to have you have to be on iOS to start and you have to install a test flight uh app which is an Apple app that you may

already have installed um once that's installed you just hit get and it'll download the uniswap wallet and you'll have it in your in your hands I got it only 99 left now maybe less thanks so much Cal uh we will include links in the show notes to this but uh get it while it's hot not too many downloads left uh that's it guys bankless listeners gotta end with risk and disclaimers of course none of this was Financial advice ethers risky crypto is risky so it's D5 so our wallets you could lose what you put in but we are headed west this is the frontier it's not for everyone but we're glad you're with us on the bank list Journey thanks a lot thank you guys