Tyler Neville on Bitcoin, convertible bonds and institutions

Transcript

GM good morning welcome to the milk roach show The Daily crypto show where our insights land cleaner than your white T-shirt after you decided to risk spaghetti for lunch I'm your host Jay Hamilton and today we're joined by Tyler Neville macro analyst for corent advisors corente advisors I hope I got that right today we are talking about a very interesting topic that we don't we don't get enough macro experts on the show and we're trying to bring more on because macro really has a view of where the financial world is moving not just crypto the whole financial world where money is moving how it all flows together and today we're going to talk

about is this the milkin moment for crypto and if you don't know what the milin moment is if you don't know Michael mil and we're gonna talk about him you probably have heard about him but basically this is a financial Revolution that happened back in the 70s 80s and it's kind of repeating itself but now crypto and with Bitcoin at the center and what it's leading to is in November we saw 4 billion in Bitcoin backed bonds coming in being sold bringing money into crypto infrastructure and spoiler alert no surprise this is big for investors like you before we jump in and hear from Tyler which going to take a moment to hear from our sponsors who make this show possible meet odos the defi aggregator that makes your token swap

smarter faster and a whole lot easier easier tired of trading like it's 2019 odos finds the best prices for your swaps across 900 liquidity sources and 14 blockchains so you always get more bang for your crypto Buck whether you're swapping setting a limit order or just avoiding gas fees like the plague oos has you covered it's like having a genius Trader in your pocket minus the coffee addiction join 3 million wallets already using odos to power over 6 billion in monthly trades start making smarter swaps today at milkroom oos Tyler welcome back to the milk Road Show it's good to be here what what an intro I mean that is just

incredible well thanks man I appreciate it P my tires already I I would have fumbled that back I mean I Cory had your advisers I little I fumbled that one a little bit but uh okay so la last time we had you on we talked about the shift that's happening from decentralization to centralization and what we're seeing now is a lot of these centralized institutions these large money funds these in these Pension funds uh these asset managers that are moving starting to move their Capital into crypto but they're not doing it in the way that the rest of us are doing it just going out

and buying Bitcoin on chain they're doing it in a very interesting way and I want to start with let let's start with can you just explain maybe give us a little history lesson on Michael milin and what happened back in the 70s and 80s with junk bonds and that'll kind of set us up for the rest of this episode sure yeah so um generally you know bonds back in the day most were just triple a tri Triple R Triple A rated so like back before you know the 70s you bought Proctor and Gable bonds or GE bonds or you General Motors bonds and they were always AAA rated and pensions would only

buy AAA rated bonds meaning they were the cream of the crop businesses were sound and you were higher up in the capital structure and you you just had a yield attached to it it's kind of like putting your money in a CD which you never hear about anymore but what happened in the 70s was this guy Mike milin came along and he created this new Financial product called the junk bond and he basically gave access he figured out that 's investors out there that want a little more yield to their bonds and are willing to take a little more risk to to to buy that those bonds so you know he basically started lending to riskier borrowers so it would be like oil and gas exploration companies or you

know he was an early lender to um News Corp or you know the news industry and there there's several wireless companies started using junk bonds to finance cable companies so a lot of the infrastructure of the 20th century was built using this product and so they would just offer a little bit more of a yield to build out their infrastructure and then you know they'd pay that junk bond off similar to any other you know triaa rated company they just got you know offered a little bit higher interest rate for it and and let's just take a step back for a second so what we're talking about is Mo mainly we're talking about corporations issuing bonds I think a lot of people when they hear

Bond they might think treasury bills T bills and the government issuing bonds that's not what we're talking about here we're talking about corporations issuing bonds as a way to raise capital and even though it's funny when you say junk bonds and things like oil and gas and news Corps because now those are a lot of those companies are very legitimate and some of our biggest companies but you have to remember there is a point in time when they weren't so legitimate and they had they had a tough time raising capital and so this this new what Michael milin created this new Financial product of junk bonds which I also find a bit of a uh misleading term it makes it sound like they're way worse than they are like the sure there's risk in them but it's it's much less risky than

going investing in equity right exactly you're you're higher up in the capital structure and you have if if all hits the fan you still have a tie to they liquidate the assets and you get you get part of that so that's the whole point of of owning a bond in general but yeah the the junk bonds they they they still they they rarely default in a good liquidity cycle where the FED keeps rates low Etc and and things conditions are healthy but in a bad cycle they do default sometimes right right and so these these large funds Pension funds are they they the way they invest is different than the way that a lot of our

listeners invest a lot of our listeners are investing they're looking for I mean you're laughing because it's so true like our listeners are just buying meme coins you know looking for uh large gains these are we're talking about maybe actually explain the mindset the the financial mindset of like a pension fund or one of these big institutions and the way a fixed income investor thinks thinks it through yeah so say I'm a you know Blue Collar guy you know worked at you know Detroit Motor plant and I put money or the company basically has this pension for when I retire they do not want to be investing in super risky stuff they want you know basically

the most risk averse things where they can make you know say six to eight% a year and so bonds fall into that category perfectly where you can basically invest you know hundreds and billions of dollars hundreds of billions trillions of dollars in this asset class where you get a Yi yield and generally you just get paid that rate of interest 68% a year and then when the bond comes mature and you know whatever time frame 10 20 years then you get all that money back so it's perfect for a pension fund investor or a baby boomer who doesn't want to take much risk and so there in lies you know a lot of the last 30 years of investment is as the Boomers were

getting older these pensions need to allocate more and more and a lot of them are un unfunded so and if if you take a Public Employee of a state pension more tax dollars from that state have to go towards the pensions to basically buy more bonds and so this is the cycle we've been in as these baby boomers have aged where there's a super demand for bonds and it's mandated that's why rates are so low is because this money keeps getting recycled and it's from state pensions a lot of it and because they're unfunded so that's why this whole thing exists and generally what happens is rates go down in the bond market and

bonds Market spreads go down far enough where you open up the frontier markets where it's kind of it's not as safe as say you know a very tried andrue business that we all know like Coca-Cola or JP Morgan it's you kind of start lending to weird parts of the market like the space Market or you know the quantum Computing Market or where wherever you are or or or crypto so now we're at these these Frontiers are starting to get access to debt markets and so why why is this and maybe this connects into what we what we're seeing in happened in November and I mentioned

in my intro was that 4 billion in uh in investing came into crypto in a way and not not in a direct explain to us what what is happening now with these convertible bonds and why this is sort of the crypto equivalent of the junk bonds that Michael milin created back in the 80s yes so one of the things we concentrate on at corente is we try to find parts of the market that have access problems meaning they have they're blocked out of capital markets in in a sense and people won't inv in them for mandated purposes and when you have that unlock where the

access changes it usually causes an asymmetric price you know movement and so one of the things that unlocks the price of any asset is the ability to borrow against it and so if you look at Like Houses when you were able to borrow against your house it actually is like it's like an ATM you can use the equity and and borrow against it and then you it becomes more liquid and someone else wants to buy that house because th those assets are interchangeable right and and so this is now happening out on the Frontiers like I said and and specifically in the convertible bond market so what milin did was he did you know fixed rate debt which was building

out the cable and wireless operators Etc oil and gas now what's happening is because if you these giant corporations that every everyone knows they're Mega behemoths they have they've been so risk averse that the volatility of their stocks are very low and they're very predictable like if you take like apple or Microsoft or whatever very low volatility in these stocks because everyone kind of knows every piece of information that's going to come out what's happening in the crypto Market is you have high volatility stocks these things are up and down and up and down and up and down and this product the convertible Bond allows you it's a it's a bond but with a

call option attached to it so it's that's why a lot of these companies are getting like really advantageous rates because you know say 0% or 3% for the convertible Bond you're you're issuing it's kind of nuts to think about but a 0% bond for like say five years and what it is is you dilute your stock up 30 40 50% from where it's trading now it's a little bit hard to understand but instead of just diluting your Equity taking you know that 10 shares and making it 20 shares you're you're only diluting it at a certain higher price and and investors these Bond investors are hoovering it up because in the bond

markets these pensions can only get like five six seven eight% on their bonds and what this allows them to do is they can have this asymmetric turn owning a convertible Bond because you can actually start you you actually those bonds the converts turn into an equity proxy so you can be up 400 500 600% like we've seen in some of these bonds so this is where in if you're if you're a pension fund or an endowment or whatever yield investor an insurance company that needs to pay out insurance claims that's really interesting to you because that can make the difference of you beating all your competitors having one Bond that's up

400% yeah so that's why they're all over subscribed so you see like you know4 billion dollar just came to Market in the sector and the people can't get enough of them at like really crazy rat and it's really wacky to see but what it's allowing is them to backdoor get a backdoor access to the industry right and I just want to go back to uh this point around the fact that these these investors these large institutions have very clear mandates and you previously have worked for some of these institutions in the past and so just give us an idea like these mandates are I'm guessing pretty strict that you can't go by you can't do a lot of things

like you are very restricted on what you do and how but you have a very your job is to make sure that you get more yield than at least whatever inflation is at a minimum and ideally much more than that correct yeah I mean if you look at any perspectus of any of these like mutual funds or ETFs you know it's pages and pages long of you know nonsense that no one reads but it's like what you can invest in what you can invest in risk factors Etc and basically a lot a lot of them were written before even Bitcoin existed but so so I mean it's kind of true but this allows like they can still buy

convertible bonds certain investors still can buy you know fixed rate debt and and get access to the industry in another sense even though you know they're not actually buying the Bitcoin they're buying this proxy that acts similarly to it it it sort of points out something that I feel like I hadn't really clued into which was that is it we we all talk about you know institutional money coming into crypto and how how it's not really here yet and what I'm hearing is that it's not that it's it's not that they don't want to they they actually maybe do want to I'm sure there's some that are old school

and maybe not that interested but there's probably actually a lot that do want to but they just can't yes is that is that accurate this is part of I mean if you go on to get existential think about the Elon Musk thing where there's never been regulations that went away there's only been a up and to the right growth of regulations and I think it's the same sort of premise where it's really hard to get break down some of these Gates that have been put up and that's why it caused the irony of the whole thing is the centralization has basically been had because you put up

these gates to these industries right as Asset Management firms Etc so you don't really have competition as black rock or tro or Fidelity or whatever because there's the gates to access are huge like millions and millions of dollars to to do all this stuff now back in the day it was like Joe Schmo could you know start a fund with $100,000 and get a track record and and now it's a lot harder but here in lies the interesting part is now they've put up so many gates that it's really hard for them to invest in the Frontiers so the so what's happening is the frontier returns are going bonkers they're going crazy and and they're they're dying to take so they have to go to their boards and then

they have to go to their shareholders and it's like what we're seeing with Amazon and Microsoft they're putting it on now the boards have to address it and they're getting some pressure now because this thing's a trillion dollar plus industry and so it crosses this magino line where you're actually going to be underperforming if you don't invest in it and you that's sort of this centralization to decentralization now they were like Ah that's nonsense you don't invest in these Frontiers it's stupid like space is stupid right like whatever you were gonna go to Mars but now it's getting less stupid because if you look at Rocket Labs or lunar or whatever these these companies that are you know we don't own them but you can see now they're getting access to Capital

similarly to the crypto industry so the frontier markets are now working and I'm talking more macro not crypto but it's all the same trade because you have these centralized oligarch type companies and now the gate the gates are getting pounded on and so they have to go to their boards and get all the okays and theoretically that opens more access like we've saw you know you brought up previously Wisconsin pension owns it you know Mass Mutual giant insurance company owns a little Bitcoin to get through these boards is really hard but it's it's happening and you're seeing it even on a nation state level for sure for sure it's uh I mean

and I think it is just starting and let's let's be clear we're talking mainly when we say like Amazon and Google we're talking mainly about Bitcoin like that is the there's whether it's nation states or whether it's corporations or whether it's large yeah yeah we're not talking about all coins or Pepe or or whatever mcoin of the month we're we're talking about Bitcoin but that's that's how it all be begins that's how it all starts is they they get access to bitcoin and yeah it's fascinating that they they want the access they want to get in and they've kind of they've almost created too much regulation and rules that they've left themselves out from these opportunities to get access to these Frontier markets and so they're kind of stuck on the

sidelines but now with convertible bonds they have an opportunity to get in yeah I mean like it's it's one way to get in it's like the back door way but they're probably working on knocking on the front door too like if you think about it as a career risk standpoint is you go from I make choices as a you know I'm saying I'm 50 years old and I I'm playing not to lose at 50 well you think the mentality whereas you're 22 you're like I mean it's probably everyone watching the show or you know early 20s 30s you're gunsling and you're like you know what if I lose some dough I got all my life to make it back but if you're 55 and you have a big mortgage you're plan not to lose like you you don't want to

so that's the mentality in a lot of these big oligarch bureaucratic companies but eventually the demographic switch right where the upand cominging maybe the younger guy that pushed Bitcoin was like hey it's up 5,000% hey old guy get the hell out of here and and then those demographics naturally come into play and gold stops being cool and Bitcoin is the new replacement you've even seen Federal Reserve chairman J Powell said that recently it's digital gold and if it's digital gold and gold is a 10 trillion dollar industry and Bitcoin is a $1 trillion dollar industry where do you think it's going long term there's going to be bumps along the way

and it could cause some geopolitical hicups but I think that's basically existentially where we're at in in the marketplace right now and and what this means is that we have these crypto infrastructure companies I think you know Bitcoin mining companies large infrastructure companies that have a easier way right now in this current moment and likely my guess is you would say throughout the rest of 2025 I don't know what your time frame is in your mind for this cycle but for a period now they have an easier way to raise Capital which allows them to obviously grow faster and to spend money and they can

do it at as you said zero interest or very low interest with this convertible Bond mechanism correct and and so that that's sort of like the if you gave think about your credit card you probably it's 19% to borrow against your credit card these guys are getting like 3% around to issue a convertible bond to I think they get like five years of of duration for zero percent and think about okay if I borrow at say 3% and I go to buy Bitcoin and Bitcoin is exceeding that over a four or five year period it's been going up 40% on average that's a great Arbitrage and so they're they're basically making a bet on the

future and saying you know I'll make 37% or whatever the average return of Bitcoin is over those foure periods but then you're getting an incredible deal in fact and but here's where it gets sticky like I'm not telling everybody to just go out there and you know lever up and spend their life savings on this the oil the oil markets can put a a dent in interest rates and it become it can become harder to borrow but right now it's really really easy to borrow because credit spreads are low and these these big big investors are looking for yield and and really Frontier Investments it's very interesting to realize that in in many ways these big investors that have so much money

actually struggle to allocate a lot of this Capital it's not easy easy there's not a lot of options well this is this is part of the problem is is we have you know I don't know Peter te talks about secular stagnation and he says you know the the most courageous thing you know someone can do is actually start a company we've had basically all the all these regulations have stultified our generation's gen Millennial gen Z to start things and and we're looking at like hundredy old companies that are just Dy and so a lot of it is just a supply and demand imbalance where look they they had so much money in these pensions that

they were buying Austrian hundred-year bonds at like negative five% interest rate they it was zero percent for Austria to to borrow for a hundred years that's how crazy this got I mean when interest this was a couple years ago they issued a hundred-year bond they they said we'll take your money we will pay you 0% we'll give it back to you in 100 years countries have fallen in less time than that you can that's it's on and why why but why why would anybody in invest in that because it's it's it's mandated you you put your money in a in a this is how dumb the system is but your 401K ends up going into a Vanguard yield international bond fund and that

automatically gets sprayed to the finite amount of countries that are issuing the debt in here in Li there and lies the problem is the systematic investing it it was supposed to help your average pensioner be and it largely has because like it's not you know not everyone's G to be able to manage their money but you end up having these like externalities where you do really bad things on the margin like at their where you end up buying the dumbest stuff and I think that we're just at the more you pressure the system where interest rates you don't let it find a natural rate on the Federal Reserve side or globally because

they can't like if they let interest rates be where they should be you know the whole system would unwind so they they have to dilute fiat currency and keep interest rates low so that the whole thing goes on but it's the the release valve is Bitcoin at this point demographically okay so let's let's actually talk about about that and I before we do though I just want to mention because I think this is like a really if if you if you're listening to this and you study macro and if you follow milk Road and subscribe to our newsletter or maybe subscribe to Pro you know how much we believe that macro moves markets and liquidity moves markets in the end and and this is exactly what you're saying is that we

are basically and we've been in this this cycle for since roughly 2008 when every all governments started printing money and trying to control interest rates and we're kind of stuck in that and this is what we talked about a little bit on our last episode with you is there's there's really no end in sight to it I mean I got to assume it ends at some point we get back to Natural business cycle and natural inflation rates but it doesn't seem like it's anytime soon well I I I don't think see I say I used to I used to say this I'm so bearish I'm bullish is the Boomers are not going to take a ding a 50% ding on their houses now right that's really the decision that the

whole system has to make you know if if they they're not gonna take 50% of their pension money like they're gonna keep Printing and they would rather have inflation inflated away because the promises are so large that they cannot even remotely if if they were to default on these debts it would be Armageddon we'd all be like fighting each other in the streets so you you hope that the in you hope you can keep oil prices down you hope you can keep food prices down so that no one kind of goes into you know World War I and that's if you see a spike in food prices or oil prices and then interest rates and FX starts being

all wonky all these FX cross rates get the hell out and put your money in your mattress because that means the dollar is going to go to the moon like that that you know that I don't I think they're at the agreement they've made at this point is I call them volatility controllers is all the central banks would rather just print money to the cows come out and that's just going to be the way it is okay and that that's nice lead into okay so now enter Bitcoin as as the solution here as your money gets printed till the cows come home and gets continually just they deflated away and if you just

held cash you'd be basically screwed long term so enter enter Bitcoin and and and I think in in the conversation that we're having right now we're seeing that a lot of these for these institutions these Corps that are issuing these convertible bonds and then these convertible bonds are being bought up by these Pension funds who are now getting a little bit of access to this Frontier Market maybe a little bit of opportunity get some bigger gains but the interesting is these corporations are using Bitcoin as collateral for these convertible bonds correct yeah you know every day that goes by we're seeing more and more corporations basically adopt the Bitcoin standard I mean there's some in Japan now it's it's kind of nuts it's

kind of a game of Game Theory where here's an existential thought back in the day to save your money you would you'd find stores of value whether be like art like really really original art or wine or these other these other things that but this is the first asset ever in history where you cannot produce more of it where you can produce more art you can produce and not only that but demographically I think our gener the next two generations they don't really give a about like am mon or likeo I don't think it's kind of like our parents generation was like let's

buy some China remember those stupid plates they would buy pass these down they're worth nothing now because the next Generation has no use for them and similarly like if you think about what a store of value really should be how much money went into these other assets like I mean gold is a good one it's always been there but you can you can produce more of it there is more Supply so like this is the first one in history where you really can't and so the game theory behind it is like how much debt is in the world relative to bitcoin and if people ever said like this Con game was like I don't want to own debt when you're devaluing the currencies by 10% a

year you inevitably get led to this thing no matter what and it makes a lot more sense when you're not American because the dollar even to give the dollar credit it actually has gone up even in the face of all this stuff because everyone else is you know second fiddle to us so that that but if you're in wherever you know Venezuela you're like oh my God Bitcoin makes so much sense so and yeah we could go down 10 rabbit holes there but I'll stop and see okay so basically we've got a a sort of a perfect storm of macro Trends right now that is leading to

a inflow of money coming in to crypto but not in not directly pumping our bags not directly buying these not directly buying Bitcoin uh more so investing in the infrastructure of crypto and that is going to obviously that's what we need because you need more capital in order to build better companies and build better infrastructure and build better Tech and that's the position we're in which should not only should that obviously longterm lead to uh crypto prices going up but it also will lead to all these companies being able to raise

Capital much quicker right now at least in in the short term and then grow faster and really it's it's almost like a flywheel effect yes there there's you know there's a boom and bus cycle here too where you always have to be vigilant if the Capital Market stop providing that Capital now this one's a little bit more interesting because Bitcoin miners are half Bitcoin mining but they're also providing AI high performance computing power to the AI big Mega cap tech companies so it's actually like two You're Building these two Frontiers like I said you're building the wirless

industry and the cable industry now you're building the AI industry and the Bitcoin mining industry and they kind of go hand inand oddly because they they need this giant access to power and and energy so that these things like when you when they built the railroads you had to like convince somebody this is the frontier when you built the Internet it's this you get this story early on where you get these super booms because there's the supply of investment is so small but then you get these super busts because you get morons that over lever themselves and borrow too much money and then when the cycle turns they default and then it the price drops so that's sort of I think we're still in like the

sixth inning if I'm gonna say of this this whole cycle if credit markets change and interest rates kind of Skyrocket then maybe that's different but the FED is adamant that they actually are going to Ste lower rates in fact I think we're pricing in like an 87% chance the fed's going to lower rates in two weeks which is kind of nuts to think about when the mark which might be by the time you guys listen to this that might be a day from now or so because this episode might come out around the time that announcement is made just so everyone listening isn't thinking that it's coming two weeks from then but yeah sorry sorry yeah okay it's okay but so I mean you could be in this world that this is this is the entire the entire world here's the other thing

the entire world has aging infrastructure and they need Europe needs $500 billion to rebuild their defense because they're afraid Trump's going to pull away from NATO the the Chinese just came out and said they're going to do massive stimulus I I think we're just in a giant giant liquidity cycle um that could change if there's war but right now the inflation is low and you should be if you're a country should be spending all the money you can while interest rates are low and and advantageous borrowing rates are there so that's I think we're in the the midst of that but you know we're we're at all-time highs and I still feel a sense of bearishness which is kind of odd and

I think it's because you have these like a lot of people lever up for the short term but if you zoom out you're like holy crap this is this has been an incredible market and you can see it in the credit spreads spr credit spreads tell the true story of everything and so for for investers what what what should they be watching over the next 6 to 12 12 months to indicate that we are still in this bull market or that we've hit the ninth inning and game over get out yeah I mean my indicator is if your mother-in-law calls you and asks to invest in Bitcoin just get out or you know but isn't that

already happening though like to me that's already happening because of 100K right like 100k I guess not really we're not you yet I got a lot of text that was like hey did I miss it did I miss it yet and to me I'm not getting you know there was a there was a slow hint where you started having people on Twitter post their p&l and how much money they made that was a little interim Euphoria and then it kind of it has faded away the past like week or two and which I don't I don't think in back in 2008 it was like when you know your best friend tells you has seven houses in is Levering up to buy his eighth house and they're making so much money doing this

when your dumbest friend is making a lot of money that's when I think you have to get out but like I don't generally I I I don't generally have that that Vibe right now which may maybe I should maybe I'm in an echo chamber but I I think you see like a super Euphoria where people are like never investing in a stock again Bitcoin is all I want to invest in like we might get there at some point there hasn't even been Trump hasn't even been uh inaugurated and there's no like if they buy if they have a Bitcoin Reserve where they that that could get wonky and think about like what other countries buy so I think it's worth kind

of sticking around and see that and then if you get the super Euphoria after that um but but always pay attention you pay attention if things start getting a little bit iffy on and oil if oil spikes or if interest rates Spike higher I'll change my tune but right now it's pretty uh salubrious that's a great word wow okay I think I think we might have to end the episode on salubrious gonna remember me that's incredible yeah and okay F final question um what just because you're talking about the potential of National Reserve

in the US other countries are also talking about Brazil's already talking about it some other countries I think are talking about it but seems like and and if if a few do it especially if the US did it then it's then it's kind of the game as you said before others just kind of have to follow do you think that we see do you think this is the cycle of that type of money flowing in to bitcoin of Corporations and and in large institutions or is it just is is it we just still going to touch it in this cycle and it'll actually come it'll still take a few more years till we get there that's a trillion dollar question I mean I think I think we're at that

point the the last we call it the concentric circles of adoption of uh you know the first my one of my my boss Mark Hart he was um he was one of the first hedge fund managers to actually get in Bitcoin in like 2014 2015 and then you know what really kicked off the cycle the first big boom of Institutions was the Futures Market opened up and then Paul tutor Jones came out and said he owned some Bitcoin and that was like and then Elon said it and so this cycle is a little bit different where it's a trillion dollar asset now which means you can buy it you know a lot of big hedge funds own it a

lot of Institutions Own It Black Rock obviously is huge so what's the next stage what's the next concentric Circle adoption you know we saw El Salvador the Bhutan owns it I'm sure all these other countries actually do own it they're just not like posting it so I don't know the logical conclusion to me is like everyone has to own a little bit of this because the risk of not is too much and and so it's just a matter of working through that bureaucratic red tape so that will be the next concentric circle of adoption and from there we'll see we'll see what happens but yeah I think we're we're probably there now and we'll see what happens in uh the next six months it could reverse but it feels

like there's demographically a lot of the politicians are are moving over like bu is really interesting from a just 20,000 foot view because who's that oh uh the president of Al Salvador who basically um he he's a millennial and he's you know he studies Plato and how to build a country and how a countryes really worked and we our whole framework for how countries were supposed to work before was like you know we offer this is probably getting into too much but this book confessions of an econom economic Hitman where you basically the US goes in they're like well we'll give you some debt if you get on if you get on the dollar and we'll build your infrastructure country and then you just

you know will own the your assets or the debt and that's how you get them on the dollar right and now you have this this model from bu where you can have a sovereign country where you have a billion dollars of Bitcoin that no one else can touch and you don't have to own us treasuries you don't have to own Chinese bonds you don't have to be anybody else you don't have to be subservient to anybody else but this this decentralized currency I think a lot of third third world countries will start thinking I don't want to give up my sovereignty to some giant Global you know oligarch when I could have this option think about the implication of debt then if you're not recycling that money into these debt you really have to

offer something so anyway I'll stop on that maybe we can talk about it another time yeah that might be a next episode but it makes me think of like that's like Argentina uh is is a a likely next candidate that could be a next El Salvador anyways uh we'll cut it off we'll cut it off here because we could keep going forever Tyler absolute pleasure to have you back on the show uh you you you've given us a lot of great great lines in this episode that we might have to cut out I think I think one of the best ones is just like it's it is at the point where it is too risky not to own a little bit of it and if anybody listening in is hanging out with uh some family members over the holidays or

anything like that that might be the line to to tell anybody if they're asking you should they get in is it too late it's too risky not to own a little bit I'll I'll leave you this every time I you know hit the Boomers with this it's like ask them what their what return on Treasury bonds was for the past three years and then tell them to go look up the return on bitcoin for the last three years and tell them is that relative risk reward like you've lost bonds you've lost on Treasury bonds if you're a bond investor and yet that's where they're all putting their money that's where they are so who's the I don't know we'll see who's the all right everybody thanks so much for

listening in today uh I I do I do want to know everybody listening because just because because Tyler brought it up earli this episode is uh age is such an interesting thing and I think everybody listening when you said that everybody oh everybody listening to milroad is is in their 20s I'll bet you all the 40y olds and there's some 50y olds I know there are I'm yeah and I'm 39 so there you go you and I are we're in the same category but I want to know feel if you guys want to share how old you guys are throw it in the comments so we know we'll have a laugh together uh have a wicked awesome day everybody thanks for list again see you as always if you liked today's episode please hit subscribe and make sure you follow us so you don't

miss out on the next one there's also a link in the description to our free 5 minute daily newsletter where we simplify crypto for you while making you laugh and if you're willing to step up your crypto investing game we're going to also leave a link for milk Road Pro you get access to our portfolio where you can see exactly what we are buying this is your number one resource to help you invest successfully in crypto one final note this show is for educational purposes only and nothing we say is financial advice investing in crypto or any asset is risky and you should never invest more than you can afford to lose thanks so much for listening in my friends have a wicked awesome day