The Two Stablecoin Models That Will Dominate with Sam Kazemian

Transcript

And it's not because it's like uh oh the banks were inefficient. It's like actually those are the two forms. You have paymentsbased flows and and units and then you have savings based units and and those units usually uh have risk and you should hopefully be getting good riskadjusted yield for them. >> 10x or 100x and an and increase by an order of magnitude or more the amount of interest that we're getting on some reserves and and some of our savings. The bigger bet is basically just [music] like all of these different types of companies in the world will try to be launching their own genius compliance stable coins. You know, in this gift card fashion, let's say.

>> Welcome back to the rule. This is your home to learn from the biggest guests, the brightest minds at the tip of innovation. >> Our goal is to help spread the collective knowledge of everyone in our community. We are breaking crypto out of its echo chamber and taking it to the real world. >> Sit back, relax, and enjoy it. >> [music] [music] >> All righty, guys. We got Sam from Fracks, >> who is not making it to Buenosirus for Dev Connect.

>> How could he do this to us? How could he do this to us? How are you feel? >> I I feel the FOMO, guys. I I I already feel I already feel the FOMO, but uh I did the KBW and and token tour. uh and uh just feel like you got to grind on all things stable coins, DeFi, Frack. So, >> you got to you got to you had a uh an institutional network of payment providers to ship. So, uh that that is a totally valid reason not to slide to the conference, man. Congrats on Rob. We got to introduce the show here. Stabled up episode 10. Sam, I know this was just an idea in our minds back in the day, but it has really came together. I think this is your second time on. Congrats on

FraxNet. Uh, congrats for the growth of the show, for the growth of uh, just the entire stablecoin ecosystem. >> Thanks, guys. Yeah, I mean, I think this show is going to be, uh, the the coolest, uh, stable coin show in 2026, let's be honest, right? Like, uh, you guys have done a great job. Great great guests. I love the Jeremy episode. Um, got to get other guys up here, man. And uh it's it's been a good it's been a good few uh few weeks at at Fracks as well. Um you know obviously the market itself hasn't been great as I'm sure everyone listening to this knows in terms of volatile assets in terms of DeFi and things like that. Uh we we did release uh Fra our Neo Bank platform

with a uh ton of signups and and people using it which is uh fantastic. But I think the more important stuff like right now in the near term like that people are probably thinking about is all the uh DeFi blowups uh thankfully of none of which affects uh Fracks and kind of the the blue chip DeFi uh stuff like a US I think like Sky totally unaffected right this um stream finance stuff and the kind of contagion that uh you know that that has happened. So hopefully you guys are uh either safe and comfy in spot or in in DeFi that that you trust.

So uh yeah, >> bit of both. Yeah. I mean it was just like it's not super inspiring to have one of the biggest OG uh DeFi protocols being Balancer get exploded in year five. It's just like it's doesn't send a great message to investors. I I I don't think um I think the the key lesson here is that there's a difference between rehypothecation and recursive lending. Rehypothecation is is a a method of basically kind of like looping on a single platform with a single wallet.

Recursive lending is I'm going to give my money to Sam, count it as TVL. Sam's going to give that money back to me, count it as TVL. We're going to give it to Robbie, count that as TVL, and then Robbie's gonna give it to Sam and then back to me. and then we all just have massive TVL. And so that like that was I think like the core lesson learned amongst others as well as just like the opakqueness of doing like off-chain vaults. Um you know we can touch on that for for a bit but I think there's some more positive developments to uh to talk about Sam. >> Yeah definitely. I think just to I I was looking at this and like trying to also move on but take lessons learned from this whole situation and I think the the main thing to take away from this as

like an industry and I I posted about it before is like curators right now which for for people that that that don't know that they're basically people that run bolts and then also uh funny enough also analyze risk and do and do risk ratings. Um a lot of them are great fantastic all of them. Loba risk gauntlet uh mev all of them you know some of them had uh issues some of them didn't I think the main thing to take away for me was that we need to separate the entities that actually evaluate credit risk to from the ones that actually allocate and take risk and this is why in like tradi uh you know there's there's arms length

people doing the credit uh ratings like the AAA ratings and and things like that um and then the actual people that trade the mortgage back securities or loans totally siloed, segregated, they have like, you know, regulatory audits and stuff. And and by the way, it doesn't mean that what is going on in Trafy is like perfect either because we all know like literally that, you know, when you're in Trafy, you could you literally decide who you pay to do the credit rating. So, it's kind of weird, right? Like, oh, like how good do you think my my risk is? and then maybe I'll go and and give money to you to rate it versus someone else. It's still better than the current situation in in DeFi where the person that is actually in charge of

like the uh risk analysis posting it and then like backing it in like governance and things like that are the same people that like you said Andy like are like moving the funds here and then the and then there and then then imagine in Trafi the equivalent would be like if the guy at the trading desk that is actually like about to make the 200 million like you know like uh bond purchase in another tab has the uh credit rating like form open and he's like, "Yeah, uh I'm gonna I'm gonna rate this AAA and then like submit it to to like Moody's or whatever and then and then I'm going to buy buy uh buy it."

Right? That's the equivalent of uh what it is right now. I think we need to think about this a little bit more and it doesn't have to get too any any more complicated like you know slashing or extra convoluted stuff. I think it literally just has to be a little bit better separated. Like like for example, for us at FRA, we have our SFRAU USD uh earn vault, right? It's it's a it's a savings yield vault. But the way that we do it is like we have literally uh governance processes that and again there's large stakeholders. People it's not perfect. People are like, oh, there's like big stakeholders or whatever like comics or whatever. they the governance sets the guard rails and then the vault only does the the very very small things that uh you know the the the guard rails are there. It's not

that the team sets totally uh novel things that you could just trust us, bro, right? So, I think there's got to be some kind of uh differentiation, but uh hopefully it seems like that stuff is over for now. At least I hope so. >> Relay, low fees, lightning speed, and the power of multi-chain at your fingertips. Instant multi-chain payments. Choose any token on any [music] chain. 75 plus networks supported. More than 5 million users. 8 billion plus volume processed, 70 million plus transactions, fast, reliable, everywhere. [music] Start swapping today, only on Relay. The wait is over. The Talis [music] testnet is live. Be part of the revolution. Join

now at testnet.talis.network. [music] Blockchain shortcuts, templates, and widgets. Launch without friction for builders by builders. Visit enso.build. It was uh a little bit unsettling to see that this is still happening in 2025. I think this was a little bit reminiscent of the 2020 2021 Algo stablecoin uh frenzy when we had a lot of experimentation, but now uh you know we're we're in the world of genius. This is why genius uh exists, right? I'm curious how how you're seeing some some of the stable coin landscape play out a little bit more broadly. I'd also love a a catch up on FRAXNet. Um because

generally, you know, the idea is that we bring this regulation forward. Not everyone has to comply with it, but you know, we can kind of have the stamp of approval on a certain set of stable coins and then these are, you know, are the stable coins that have some consumer, you know, more consumer trust in them. Um and so how are you seeing stable coin landscape play out generally? like what are the stable coins that you see as kind of rising to the top and really bolstering themselves and becoming more robust as a as uh you know the regulation develops and then I know FRANET is like linking all these things together and being kind of like the glue that holds the stable coin industry together. So uh would love an understanding of how Fraxnet is helping to uh uh you know really strengthen and

solidify all of the stable coins that are are uh capitalizing on Genius. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh, I think the the more time goes on, the more I've realized it literally isn't specifically about like genius like the the bill, but more like what the what the act represents because without this stuff, I don't think the like 60 70% of the activity like right like Western Union two weeks ago announcing they're going to do a their own stable coin, you know, other big companies. I think JPM earlier today was like, "Oh, the the deposit token at like JPM banks that is on base, right? You can uh test it out and and things like that." Um, and we we've talked to them a little bit even before that. So, there's

there's some cool stuff um that that we're thinking about as well. I think the most important thing is what it represents, right? And so, everyone has a stable coin strategy. Uh, and the breadth of different types of stable coins will have like a this kind of spectrum. I I kind of call this like the the spectrum of of different stable coins from extreme money, right? Stable coins that are like universally accepted uh like like Tether obviously the the most moneyiness out of all and then like USDC hopefully FRAUSD is what we're building towards in terms of being able to be onetoone and widely accepted everywhere, right? And then you'll have this like long arc of kind of uh I I guess the the way to put it is like uh

gift card stable coins, genius coins, which like if you think about um like you know all of these stores, if it's like Starbucks, if it's Costco, if it's uh you know online uh places, right? They'll have these programmable digital dollars that basically you can use to get better deals and these kind of things. But then the the most important is what platforms actually allow you to go between all of them as you earn like some of them in DeFi which are more moneylike right but then you maybe get a uh you know some Starbucks USD or something right uh and you want to actually swap it in for for different stable coins something like Fra which is basically like a a neo bank uh that is a

professional uh neo bankank platform so people can sign up or entities right and then you can swap go in and out to fiat on offramps one to one to all major stable coins, right? Like FRA, USD, USDC, USDT. Um we're going to increase um right now it's PYUSD, USDB from uh Stripe and Bridge and um going to increase the the actual coverage. And so you can think of it like a clearing house, right? Like a clearing house for major stable coins. It's non-custodial. You can attach uh any wallet, right? um or custodial if you need one like BitGo wallet, Fireblocks which recently uh fully integrated FRAUS USD custody and um all these other um FRA net hooks and stuff like that. Um so that's that's what we're building. We're building kind

of the central clearing house and then in the middle is obviously like FRAUSD, but you don't have to use it. You could use whatever other stable coins you want, right? Um and I think that's where things are going. Um, I think that when there's going to be a thousand stable coins, I know that the the the contrary view, right, is like stable coins are like going to be uh L2s where people were like every company is going to have an L2. I think that that was probably a little too much, right? But companies have gift cards, companies have websites, right? Like they might not need like a a literal uh blockchain themselves, but I think it's not the same thing. I think you'll see a lot more stable coins that will be

successful that'll have like narrow scope uh distribution. Um and they'll be there'll be money makers. They'll be uh able to actually capture both the the underlying yields and then also the the revenues from like payments everything by getting it integrated in payments processor. So we'll see. Um I I'm really excited for basically seeing how those type of stable coins will interact with onchain uh DeFi and where we can bring value because that's where FRA actually lives right at the intersection of onchain defy and now offchain uh institutional payment flows on off-ramp flows.

>> Yeah man I mean Rob that was one big trend of smart con right where was like okay we've got these RWAs on chain now but like then what and I know plume's doing you know a decent job of having like this kind of RWA ecosystem. There's obviously stable coin yields across dozens of chains now, but it does feel like the next step here is like actually bringing on these whether it's a genius compliant stable coin or some T bill based yield products or other products and like integrating them into DeFi. Sam, I'm curious if your your vision still persists because I once you said this to us, I think it was on the first episode of this show with regards to the two types. I've been using that non-stop and everyone loves it and they they they totally vibe with it. They agree with

it. they understand it. Is that still very much your vision for like the two types of stable coins? You got the genius compliant ones and kind of like the yield bearing ones. And I know it's a bit more nuanced than that, but just kind of tapping. >> Yeah, I think that's proven uh to to be to be even more specific. What I mean by it is is like a payment type of stable coin. Uh and then like the savings or the yield bearing stable coins and um you know internally in the payments ones, right? The most important thing with a payment stable coin is how many places universally accept it as money, right? And and the and the more uh safe it is, the closer to risk-free it is, the more likely this will be uh a a a payment stable coin, right? Like what a

payment uh asset is is that every N person or entity that accepts it, it becomes more valuable for the next N plus one, right? So like it's very difficult to get the first place to accept your thing as a as a payment, right? The second person slightly uh easier but still very hard because it's only two, right? And then the third slightly easier, fourth, fifth, sixth, right? And then the whole point is the more widely accepted it is as payment, the the more likely uh you know the next marginal person or N plus1 will accept it. Well, if you think about it for a second, what is the most important properties of a stable coin to maximize that function N plus1 acceptance over time? it it cannot be super complicated underlying so that every single n uh

person institution entity has to analyze oh if I accept this thing is it gonna is it going to implode or whatever they just want a dollar they don't even want yield for for payments right like if you just think about this kind of type one kind of payment asset it just has to be very simple right and that is you know genius compatible or maybe something that's very mature like tether doesn't even need to be that because it's so so moneylike it's just out in a league of its own right And it's simple, everyone can understand it. Uh it's it's useful as a form of payment and general money. Then when you have it, right? The second type is okay when I hold it or or anyone holds a stable coin, how can I get yield from it? Where what's the savings account kind of structure? What is kind

of this uh system? And I think one thing that was interesting, I think it was Paul um Frambot that uh the the founder of Morpho that uh talked about how everything is volts, right? Volts is uh the the the next thing and uh I think whether we call it yield bearing stable coins or vault stable coins or or whatever I think is a good way to think about it because then the payment stable coins are put into these savings vaults these yieldbearing you know 4626 volts whatever you want to call them and those have risk obviously right th those uh clearly uh some of them have terrible risk unfortunately like the USDX stuff right um some of them are super blue

chip like Sky SUSDs, like FRAX SRAXUSD or Athena SUSD and they they're they can support large TVL. They've never had an issue. There's there's never been an exploit. They're very very transparent about where the the money actually is going. Um, and if you think about it, those aren't actually good payments to believe it or not, right? because you you do not uh go to people and be like do you accept like uh SF FRxUSD or SUSD which is uh a dollar7 cents today or something like that. uh they just want to accept the dollar right so the these two types of uh class of stable coins I think will become solidified like these are the two types there's there's no there's no other types the the other types that we used to talk about CDPs

underlying algorithmic or whatever uh they're basically subcategories of of the of the vault savings because that's how you actually get the yield for taking risk right >> yeah um >> I like it >> yeah did you have do you have a follow No, I just I I mean very very well put. Um and just generally like when that idea has been brought to anyone from a suit to a dev, they all kind of jive with it and understand it. So I think it's like a really good it just makes sense. It's like guys, we've been trying to like kind of fit a square into a circle hole. It's like no, why don't we just have very safe stable coins with no yield, no risk, and then you know have have ones that obviously if there is yield, there's going to be risk. It's

like it's like it's like finance 101 but took us a couple years to figure it out. >> It's interesting because before I used to even think that checking and savings accounts were like an artifact of like traditional finance because things were like super inefficient and stuff like that. Um but now I I think and this will be more obvious like obvious to other people too is like checking and savings accounts are actually like a fundamental like platonic form of finance. like it's it's like a it's like an equation of like you know F equals MA or like you discover this form that and it's not because it's like uh oh the banks weren't efficient. It's like actually those are the two forms. You have payments based flows and and units and then you have savings based units and

and those units usually uh have risk and you should hopefully be getting good riskadjusted yield for them. Um, and so it's not that like checking and savings are like this thing of banks and like they, you know, they had shitty tech or something like that. It is actually an economic form. >> Yeah. And it also goes to show that there's a a really nice segue from stable coins into RWAs because as you start to think more about what these yield bearing stable coins look like, they start to look more and more like some sort of t tokenized T- bill, treasury, RWA structured product type of thing that people can store their wealth in and they there there's deep liquidity and it can effectively serve as a savings account but not a savings

account that gives you 0.002% 002% interest like a savings account in a fiat based bank. It's it's giving you the risk-free rate that everyone knows, you know, once you kind of have some sort of awareness of the Treasury bill, bond market that's out there. And so we can actually 10x or 100x and and increase by an order of magnitude or more the amount of interest that we're getting on some reserves and and some of our savings. Do you Sam, do you think about this ever ever? Like to me, whenever we're increasing something by orders of magnitude, that that could pose some pretty substantial ripple effects throughout, you know, the economy or society. Do you think that's like kind of flying under the radar, you

know, a as we kind of move our cash savings account into a tokenized version of an RWA structured product and we go from, you know, 04% to 4%. Do you think that's going to have any any sort of knock-on effects? Yeah, I think first of all anytime that there's like more efficiency, uh it's always better even if like like I I can't I honestly can't think of an example. Let me know if you do where there there was a lot of efficiency in a market uh right which which was legal right like there's obviously you don't want crazy markets for like drugs assassinations etc but a legal market where there's efficiency gains where it's actually been bad right and so the the important thing is even like the

community banks and stuff that are like oh no if this happens like we won't be able to lend to whatever uh these efficiency gains are not good efficiency gains essentially is what what they're saying uh I I think it's it's total bull especially because I don't know if you guys saw the new um the I think it was the Fed report. I forget which um regional Fed it was where it said that stable coins uh actually have a good chance of lowering uh credit costs like like interest on on loans and it's like oh wow look now it's the exact opposite. the the data and the assumptions is uh it's actually going to make creating credit easier rather than harder contrary to what uh the anti- you know crypto bank lobby actually says right

and so I think we're going to see more and more people actually understand that that it's a good thing in every way even if like there's some like uh not great arguments of like oh deposit flight or whatever. Um the the funny thing with the the deposit flight argument, by the way, is that if you read the the Genius Act, one of the actual bill like like the the collateral types that are accepted is bank deposits at FDIC insured banks. So like you can literally create a genius compatible stable coin with for example the tokenized JP Morgan deposits today that that they they announced. Like that is literally a compliant stable coin if you want to go in that direction. It obviously looks slightly different than like the tokenized T bills that like we work with

at FRAUSD with like Bidd, Superstate, uh, Wisdom Tree and and them, but it's it's still compliant. It's the same. And I think it's just going to create a lot more efficiency. Um, and what's interesting, and then you you brought this up, like what stuff are we thinking about? The design space for like transparent genius stables is not very big, right? There's these five like like assets, right, that you can use. Uh and then the the fifth clause is like tokenized representations of the above four, right? That that's literally the the definition in the bill. Um and it's actually I think what's unique is that if you can get the most utility and and efficiency out of this narrow design space. So what we do with FRAUSD is we

have all of the collateral uh tokenized onchain as RWA securities, right? So we really make use of that fifth uh of forgotten uh clause of like tokenized representations of like the above uh securities and assets, right? And so we allow redemptions atomically on chain and we allow people to actually mint and redeem if they can move the RWA token. In certain sense, we even allow uh people to uh redeem for USDC and other tokens in line if there's a uh market maker that can touch the RWA and then put USDC into the redemption contract and then the ARB bot or whatever is is on chain, the MEV bot uh can only touch like USDC or USDT. And so we actually have the most efficient compliant design

uh architecture of at least that I've seen of uh a Genius compatible stable coin with FRAUSD. And as it gets bigger, it'll be this like center of liquidity um with all the other it'll basically be the um pair so to speak, right, of all of the compliant RWA um securities that you can back it with, especially the ones that we have partnerships with. And so that'll make it even more and more uh enticing for other other entities like like JP Morgan or the next one or whatever to uh participate and and use FRAUSD, get us to uh integrate it into our system. And so it's a really interesting quiet thing that we're doing that we're seeing more and more uh more volume, more usage, more growth. Uh the

supply with FRA USD in the past uh 30 days actually gone up by like uh almost 40%. Um and it's uh it's been good. Things are things are growing and up and to the right regardless of the market turmoil. >> Asset management [music] redefined built on ERC7621. Standardize how you launch, manage, and trade onchain baskets. [music] This is Alvara, the standard for onchain asset management. Habachi provable. Trade pers with speed and security. Earn rewards. Visit [music] hibbachi.xyz.

Trading on fire. Yeah, it's bullish, guys. Uh quick quick news that just hit the wire. Dubai court freezes $456 million linked to Justin Sun's bailout of True USD issuer Tech Terics. Just another example, right? I I don't really remember what happened at True USD. >> I I don't either. All I know is some some kind of stuff like it was or something. Do you remember that one? >> Yeah. [snorts] But like just another you an another example of basically saying what you're saying right here about F FRXUSD about the moneyiness of these assets about the genius compliant nature of these assets and just kind of I mean to me it seems like it seems like Fraunet is pretty

much all in on this genius compliant nature of of future you know stable coins like it seems like that's the bet that you're taking and then the bigger bet is basically just like all of these different types of companies in the world will try to be launching their own genius compliance stable coins, you know, in this gift card fashion, let's say. Um, and that Fraant wants to be kind of like the glue there. And, uh, yeah, I mean, look, like like the supply is going up, it's great. Uh, the market's going down, that's fine. Uh, but it seems like you're playing a way bigger game than like, you know, what is the price of Bitcoin today?

>> Yeah, we we try not to look at it. Although, obviously we're we're crypto guys. It's hard. But uh the the important thing I think over the long term is look we're we're not building for next year or the or the year after. It's like a three to five year uh time horizon to see if we're we're correct about exactly as you're saying. We can also uh do even more interesting stuff as the FRANET platform um matures. Right. So, one of the things we're we're looking at is uh white label issuance using the FRANET infrastructure and actually having relationships with these companies that might be fine with using FRAUSD or USDT or USDC, but then they also want like like I said their own kind of branded or or gift card

programmable digital dollar, right? Um because there's no reason why uh if we've built all this architecture and infrastructure and neo bank system for FRAUSD, it can't be used for a close partner that we want oneto ontoeness with anyway, right? And you can kind of think about it like if you work with us or if you want us to issue your own uh genius compliant stable coin, you don't have to actually uh recreate the wheel. You don't have to recreate the on-off ramp. You don't have to recreate the virtual accounts onchain mint and burns, all of these things. you get all of that for free um rather than having to do uh each of those individual things. And so there's a very wide set of like tentacles that the whole fraet like platform can slowly move into. And and

like you said, we're we're looking at where things are going, not just this week, but like next year basically. >> Yeah. Sam, where what sectors or like is there a sector specific mindset you have with regards to the types of companies that will be, you know, you know, eager to launch a stable coin and wanting to have them be certainly genius compliant, thus a good customer for forex. I mean, I think the most important thing if you're going to like work with us uh over other good uh providers, of course, like we're we know a lot of them. Um is that hopefully you do want onchain utility, this ability to mint and burn quickly between a few chains, which we have the most coverage out of all of the

um issuance platforms or or companies. uh you do want to actually um have onchain integrations as well as the off-chain banking and uh institutional like like flows and and backing it with like uh Black Rockck Biddle or uh Superstate and other RWAS or cash. um if it's just I guess I guess this doesn't really apply because I'm not sure who would be listening uh super natively to crypto. But if if there's no use on onchain uh for the for the stable coin, it's only for like remittance and and things like that. Um I guess it's like slightly less of a good fit. But even like fintex that would like to have onchain utility uh either now or

eventually for their issued stable coin. I think we're fra is unmatched in that area in terms of um onchain integrations onchain uh utility and then connecting that now to offchain. >> Incredible. Makes sense. Um man I I think you know what we saw we were at SmartCon last week. I think we were in New York and you know the there was Fidelity, Black Rockck, there was DTCC you know there was you know people say trillions there was literally quadrillions of settlement volume in the room and it just you know it's it's inspiring but it's also signaling that this is kind of where the men separate from the boys. Um and I tend to think

that we're going to see this repricing in the market where coming up in 2026 we're going to get this institutional cycle. Um, and you know, if you have an institutional strategy, this is where you're going to sort of ascend into the next the next leg of where this industry is going. And if you don't, you're just going to get left behind. So, I guess Sam, maybe you could just describe what it's been like, you know, thinking back to to 2021 and 2020 when you were around. Not everyone, you know, that that's around today was around back then, but you saw the evolution of the space. you saw point A to point B and the the before and after. Could you just like when you're in the conversations, when you're in the rooms, when you're having these conversations,

what is the before and after look like and and how stark of a different is it? And and where do you think we go from here when it when you know we kind of close out Q4 and we go into Q1? Yeah, I uh it's been a crazy uh past like five years and obviously before that I was in crypto for a while before the the DeFi uh cycle too. I really do think that all of this stuff like you're saying the trillions and settlement volume, the big boys and stuff is because the the the Genius Act opened. It doesn't mean they're all like gonna issue genius compliant stable coins, but it really is the what the act represents the regulatory clarity for for digital dollars. And uh this part is just like a

a rumor, but I I've heard it from some people that I like kind of trust. And one of the things they told me is like during all of these uh tariff like negotiations and backroom things and stuff like that, one of the things the administration particularly secretary Besson has has like said is like uh you have to open your country to dollar stable coins. It's as important for the US to to do that as uh as as like opening your banking system and things like that. Again, I don't actually uh know that firsthand, but it's from people that I uh I trust. And if that's true, that is really, really awesome because first of all, that is such a long-term strategic view of the US dollar and what stable coins mean to the

US dollar in terms of having a ton of new treasury demand, right? And uh people using it across different countries. It's actually very very impressive to see a forwardthinking uh administration like this one actually bring it up and potentially bring it up in high stakes negotiations. So seeing that and then from like you said from 5 years ago where people were like uh you know building things named sushi, hamburger, pickle and and all all this stuff is uh is is pretty crazy, right? And so I think it's far beyond just one act, right? Like the this bill and things like that. It's more about how big can we get? how quickly can we get there? And making sure that you're at the frontier to be able to provide this

this efficiency, these services to people that like you said, they're they're the big boys, right? They they settle trillions and they're they're finally here, right? >> I mean, yeah. I mean, Rob and I have been kind of like pontificating and like if you don't have a seat at the table right now, there's still some seats open in the market in general, but like the seats are getting set and the the table is getting set uh with regards to the players that are going to lead the next cycle. And so it's like, you know, no pressure Sam, but like same to us, but it's like, well, you guys, you know, we you have to capture some portion of of the market, right? Because like we're in this adoption phase where this only happens once now. It's it's massive and it's huge and it's vast and it's as Rob

says quadrillions but like it this time period it will last you know however many number of years and there will be winners and and then there will be the rest and so it does feel like a bit of urgency in the air right now with regards to the institutional adoption phase. Oh, we definitely feel the urgency. In fact, the there's so much stuff to capture that it it honestly um you obviously have to concentrate on certain things and and uh there's too much stuff. But the the most important thing to uh think about I was I was thinking like certain type of like uh tokens or protocols. For example, a came to mind and and Pendle came to mind. Um most people probably don't remember but

a was originally like ETH lend right and and so they um they did uh some some cool products and then they were like okay let's restructure change the brand like like redo some tokconomics and then push it out and then uh a now is you know like the rest the rest is history right like up and to the right and you know just use a right when you're when you're uh when you're doing uh lending or or borrowing right and same thing with like Pendle if you look at the Pendle like chart of the token or something. And this is not obviously investment advice, but if you look at just overall like the life cycle, right?

Um there was this like quiet period before they, you know, hit Eureka, right? And the the the period is when you're designing, you know, what you're you're doing and you you feel like the the thing that you've, you know, you're in is is the right place, right time, and and a huge huge market opportunity. And I think then again with Pendle, rest is history, right? up in up and to the to the right and like a perfect product market fit that brings so much value to to tons of people and I think the comparison I'd give again not investment advice at a token pendle fra tokens or anything but uh with the with the fra token protocol all this stuff I really

actually feel like between 20 uh20 like you were saying uh um Robbie and then like 2025 is between our ETH lend phase and then our a phase Um and so like the the things we've learned and the the adjustments that we've done and then the things that we know are coming and and obviously change in tokconomics and things like that we can you know that that's a whole separate episode. Uh obviously like recently unis swap also announced this huge thing uh where you know uni tokens been quiet for a while and people were like you know what does it even do and then they came out right and were like okay um I actually really love that uh unification uh token proposal right I don't know if you guys

have talked about that at length yet but I think these things where this period of quiet recalibration readjustment and then huge huge uh value creation there's going to be a few of these like you said uh Robbie um and I think we've seen evidence before of other cycles like like a and pendle what's going to be the ones in in next cycle and obviously I'm biased and and I think it's it's fra but that's not going to be the only one um I think there's a few other really interesting ones and uh I think that's the real question right what's the next like 20 30x that is right at the right place at the right time that is creating value and knows what's going to happen in 2026 and 2027 >> 100%

>> very well said That's very bullish for for axe, by the way. Extremely bullish. >> We'll see. I think so, too. We'll see soon. >> Yeah. Yeah. Sam, thanks for your time, man. Um, we are we are very very slammed into DevConnect. We are stoked to get out there again. Bummed that you're not going to be there. I'm sure we'll see you at a conference towards the end of the year or early next. But yeah, it's it's crunch time. It's Q4. It's crunch time. Um, so uh we appreciate your hard work. Congrats on FraxNet. Congrats on the success. Um, let's just say that there's some stable coins right now that are there's uh the stable coin rankings are being flipped and you know if you know you you know. So um we'll see you

on the other side. Sam, >> thanks guys. Enjoy Dev Connect and talk to you soon. >> Cheers. Thanks man. We'll see you soon.