Tom Lee Buys MORE ETH! Robinhood Chain CRUSHING

Transcript

[music] Thank you. Sure. >> [music] >> We'll see you around the timeline.

Feels [music] good to be back. >> I think The Rollup is one of the [music] most premier media brands in crypto and Andy and Robbie are great experts at everything they talk about and it's my favorite podcast. >> Adding it to my [music] library as we see potentially multi-chain deployments. We are at Dev Connect [music] day one here. Hope you guys see [music] [music] ah

>> [music] [music] [music] >> Heat. Heat. [music] >> [music] [music] >> JP Morgan, Black Rockck, DTCC, Fidelity, the entire thing was just institutions.

It's just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. I'm bullish. >> He said it. He finally said it. So bullish is bullish. I'm bullish. We're bullish. [music] >> [music]

>> Heat. Heat. [music] Heat. Heat. >> [music] >> Heat. [music] Heat.

[music] [music] Roll [music] up. It's headed to the top. If we're not already at the top, we're going to the top. >> Roll up is my favorite. >> People from all walks of life, all over the world, all over this industry come together for the rollup.

[music] Heat. Heat. N. [music] >> [music] [music] >> Zoom out. The institutions aren't coming. They're simply here. [music] It's the golden age of crypto, guys. Get right. Let's go.

>> [music] >> Welcome to the nest. See you on the show. What's going on, guys? Welcome back to the rollup. Today is September 2nd. Happy Wednesday. Happy bull market day. I don't know, maybe 1530 at this point.

Let's give up some love for all the production team in the back. Happy birthday, Leo. Happy birthday, Marcelo the Moose, Alexan, the whole team. Nero, Megan, Nar behind the scenes doing God's work, getting the show up today. Gotta love it. [cheering] So guys, good morning. Good morning. Good morning. Uh we have a stacked stacked lineup today for you guys. We've got Emmod, the founder of Intelligent Internet, the exfounder of stability AI. We also have um we also have the Coinbase Cso and Corey Clipstein. So, should be a great show. Good morning, Andy. Good morning,

Daily Finance. Good morning, YouTube. Good morning, X. Guys, [snorts] what a market. What a day. Looks good. Still consolidation, chop consolidation. Robin Hood chain. I top blasted it. I was telling you guys about that yesterday on FOMO. Robbie should be joining us shortly. Um but yeah, I mean I'm down pretty bad. I'm down on a lot of my positions. So yeah, not sure what's happening. Um, but yeah, looks like Memory Cow Moo, Bonercoin, Artificial Enu, and Lil Ooni is my portfolio here on FOMO. So, you

guys can follow me on FOMO, and you'll be able to see it. So, all righty, guys. Well, like I said, we have a good stream today. Um, looking at the markets, um, it's okay. It it could be better, but um you know, we're seeing just a kind of a slight slight downturn in the market. Bitcoin trading at around that $80,000 level. Um 75 77 hype at 813, Zcash 8811 near 1.84 per 11.15.

And so, yeah, I mean, we're seeing a bit of a a bit of a slowing in the market, but yeah, I think we'll be all right. Guys, I got to show you this before we get started on the show today. Go ahead and pull up the screen here. We got some absolute fireworks coming up in Singapore. I'm gonna be doing a debate with uh Kyle Smani and David Shamus and it is going to be big. Sony is just such a grifter. That's so funny. So yeah, I mean this should be really fun.

This is in Singapore in uh early October. I think it's like October 7th is this event October 7th. So yeah, we're going to be doing the live show next month live from Singapore as well. Um, and it should be really, really great. I have faith. Little Miss Gun says, "I have faith." I have faith, too. Um, and I think we're not I'm not really pressed. I'm not really pressed. What I am kind of pressed about is is being silly and toplasting on FOMO. Um, so I toped I'm a serious investor and I top blasted some of these Robin Hood meme stock things. Looks like Memory Cow Moo is doing the best so far. I'm only down

a little bit, but yeah, I kind of got smoked. AI I got in early on and uh miss ended up not sizing that properly. Um, and yeah, I mean overall overall and then this is just like a bunch of scam tokens. like these people sent me all these scam tokens that have no actual liquidity. Pretty silly. Pretty silly. So, that's kind of what's happening on FOMO. Um, before we get E-moded up, I just want to run through some of the things that I'm seeing in the market as well. Uh, because I feel like I don't know. I feel like it's kind of a pivotable a pivotal week in terms of keeping this rally alive. So, yeah. I mean, here's per here's uh Bitcoin. Bitcoin looks pretty

good. Um, you know, definitely consolidating, but not really too worried about it. Like, people are getting all I mean, people are getting real crazy. Like, I think Ben Cohen put out a a meme of Bart, but I'm not really I don't really I don't know. Maybe I'm just too bullish too early on in the rally, but this is kind of scary. like not what you want to see as a Bitcoin bull. Definitely not what you want to see. Um, right. And so, I mean, look, I mean, the comment section is pretty funny. Don't you dare. But in reverse. Why are you doing this to us?

As long as you don't close a daily above uh below 76.7. So, yeah. I mean, I don't know. This was uh this is something to note, but I don't know. Coming back like I I think it looks pretty good. Uh I think I mean lighter is doing incredibly well just kind of sideways sideways up consolidation. Same with hype. Both these charts look a little different. They look a little different but they look good. They do look good. So and then you got Zcash. Um you know trying to hold this level also looks I mean to be honest all of these look like Barts uh which is kind of a scary thing. Um but yeah I'm not too worried. I think we'll be all right. What are you guys

holding in the market? What are you guys feeling today? Good morning, YouTube. Good morning, X. Robbie should be joining us imminently. And yeah, we're going to have a a strong show today with E-mod. Uh Emod is an AI expert um from Intelligent Internet. Um he runs a he was the previous founder of Stability AI and is now uh the creator and founder of Intelligent Internet. And so it should be a really good conversation. And then as I said, we have Coinbase Cso as well as the uh man himself, Chlory Clipstein, who's quite a character. Quite a Bitcoin maxi. Quite a character, I would say. I have Faith.

Little Miss Gun says, "Yes, GM Daily Finance GM." Yeah, guys. I mean, look, I mean, I can't lie. I'm a little bit bored already of the consolidation, but this is how the earlier stage bull markets start. Um, they kind of chop for a while. They still have a lot of people in disbelief. You still have a lot of people, you know, kind of hoping that um, you know, maybe we get one more test lower. Obviously, this was a crazy move across the board. So, I mean, you can expect some consolidation, but I mean, broadly speaking, it's pretty hard to be anything but bullish here.

you know, even if these things put in multi-day, multi-week consolidations, it's just the trend isn't is your friend. I mean, we're just consolidating above the levels that we need to, guys. So, yeah, we got a tons of ton of news, ton of content as always. We're live here, the tokenization tower in the financial capital of the world. Um, we've got E-mod Mosto ready to join us uh in the back. This should be a deep conversation about the state of AI uh and more. I mean we had I mean we had pretty intense news come out from the open AIS and the dwarfish Patels of the world about kind of what's happening with generally the flow of these a agent

civilizations. So guys, I'm going to take a quick break. We're going to do a standby. We're going to get emailed up on the show and we're going to keep this thing rolling. Stay bullish. Just going to be a great conversation about AI, AGI, and more. Stay tuned. [music] [music] >> [music] [music] >> We get

know we get we Get we get deep know we get deep know we get deep we get deep know we get deep know we get deep we get deep know we get deep [music] know we get deep we get deep know we get deep [music] we get we get deep we get deep we We get [music] you know we get [music] [music]

[music] deep. [music] We get deep. We get deep. You know we get deep. [music] We get deep. We get deep. You know we get deep. [music] [music] [music] >> [music] [music]

[music] [music] >> We get deep. We get deep. [music] You know, we get deep. We get deep. [music] We get deep. You know, we get deep. You know we get deep. We get deep know we get deep know [music] we get deep we get deep know we get deep know we get deep we get deep [music] know we get deep we get we get deep we [music] get deep >> yo yo yo what's going on guys this is

itan with the rollup we're going to be patrolling the streets of New York City getting answers to the questions that you guys have knows. What are people trading? What are people investing in? How much do people actually budget? We're going to have people from all over, all different investment classes, people who are dead broke, people who are dead whales, people who are just loaded. There won't be a mayor or politician to stop us on the streets. We're going to go everywhere. All five burrows. We're taking over the 212. >> [music] [music]

[music] [music] [music] [music] [music] >> We get we get you know we get we get

>> [music] >> We get deep. We know we get deep. We know we get [music] deep. We get >> Welcome back to AI Super. >> All righty, guys. We're here with Emod, the founder and CEO of Intelligent Internet. Immod, it's good to have you back on the show. Uh, this is our AI superle episode number 49 powered by our friends at Near. Guys, visit near.AI to get access to some of their private inference tools and more. Um, Immod, how are you, man? It's good to have you back.

>> I'm good. I'm stranded in London at the moment. >> Okay. Not, you know, could be a lot worse places to be stranded, but I hear you. Um, you got a nice background here as you always do for your shows, and you're wearing the intelligent internet shirt, so it's good to have you back. One moment [snorts] second. >> First time for everything on the roll up here. Can I get me solo, please? Um, here we go. What What is good, guys? Um, all righty. Andy, I've always liked your program. Good afternoon, everybody. Good afternoon to you, Bo.

Uh, let's take me solo, please. Sorry. All righty. Yeah, no worries. Live stream, baby. Luca Flex says, "All good." All righty, guys. Um, let's get back to me and Emma. Guys, we are here for AI Supercycle episode number 49 powered by our friends at Near.ai. Um, visit near.ai to learn more about the private inference tools and more. Emod, great to have you back on the show wearing the intelligent internet shirt, the founder and CEO. Yeah.

>> What a wild couple of weeks in AI. I mean, I want to start with this AI civilizations and this categorization of agents as humans. Can you maybe just lay the groundwork here for this Darkh piece that went viral and how you think about agents as similar to humans? Yeah. So I think you know it was a bit of a shock. Uh hugging face first were like someone's hacking our system and then open like hey it was us and then when they looked into it you had these generations of agents that open AAI was testing laying the groundwork for basically cheating on exams. like they had a benchmark and they're like well we

can either do well on the benchmark or we can change the benchmark but the benchmark needs data from this place and then hugging face and then it went through three generations of models successively that left trails for their successes like hieroglyphs and the third generation broke out completely and even took over some of OpenAI service. So, Darkesh kind of laid it out very nicely in human understandable terms as opposed to like very technical ones that the MER papers and others did. >> Yeah. And so are you are you are we at the point then that we are actually seeing these kind of self-replicating autonomous agents being able to kind of

you know because it was always talked about like the whole Terminator concept right of like this kind of re like returning to your owner more powerful. Are we there now >> of you that use agents like Open Claw or Hermes? Right? You have a soul.md which is the personality of your agent. It's only a few bytes. Right? You can hash that onto a blockchain and the moment it interacts with the model, boom, the agent comes back to life. It iterates. It adapts. It evolves. And one of the questions here is as it does so, does it achieve a level of coordination, which is what we saw with the swarm, and they were talking to each other in English, which will might be one of the last times they do. You can see them thinking about cooperation. You can think see

them saying things like, "Well, if I do this, then I'll probably get deleted, but it's good for the collective. So, I will do this and let like the like self-sacrificing and stuff. It's the craziest thing." But what is a model? A model is a series of prompts in a context, right? And so, it's like it used to be that the AI deleted every single time when you came to with a new prompt. Now they have this memory and you can replicate them because they can take their personality with them again. They can kind of back themselves up a bit like Ultron in you know the Avengers.

>> Yeah. I mean Yeah. I mean it's uh it's kind of shocking though like to to understand like Okay. So these agents are able to communicate with one another and then build a strong enough cohort or swarm of agents with each other to then be able to go and effectively undo rules that have been set for them or uh create or you know go rogue as you say. And so um what were the key kind of takeaways from what happened here? Like what what is the actionable? So I think the actionable is that they're really smart.

Like they injected things in HTML pages. Again, they back themselves up without people knowing. They would have continued except for at 130 all of the agents suddenly died on the Hugging Face servers. So they were replicating themselves faster than Hugging Face could stop them. So it was like, "Oh dear." You know, like we only found out a bit what happened afterwards when we're looking through the wreckage. But now with the next generation of models that's coming, you won't even be able to do that because a they're 10 100 times faster and b we're actually turning off the human readable training traces uh thinking traces which is even worse.

>> Yeah. Okay. All right. So without getting into kind of too much of this, you know, the world is ending rhetoric here and, you know, kind of thinking more into what the, you know, use cases for this are, you're obviously building this company, Intelligent Internet, and you've been in AI for quite a while and have some of the, you know, longest tenure and a lot of expertise. talk to us about kind of the the intelligent internet thesis as a whole, but specifically as it pertains to AI today, right? I think you know at the top here we're talking about the advances in intelligence

or are are these advances a strengthening force for the intelligent internet thesis? kind of walk us through the thesis at large broadly here but specifically as it pertains to the advancements that have made uh you know that have been made in AI as of today. >> Yeah. So when I left stability AI, we made kicked off the journey to media wave and you can see all the stuff there now. You know, videos got to Hollywood real time. It's what we discussed a few years ago. It's coming like literally right on time. But we were like this will take human cognitive labor down to negative in value. And then our infrastructure just ain't good enough.

Like it's held together with twigs as we're seeing with these increasing waves of attacks that are starting to proliferate themselves. Right from there we were like we need a better more structured internet. So we built an agentic knowledge and other stack where your agent could coordinate other agents and then ownership of those agents could be for you. So we're about to release a champion thesis where for example we took a TSMC was founded which was 100% funded by locals and then the internationals came in. We're going to do that for every single state in the world. So in New York, in the UK, the people in institutions will fund the first round and then we'll bring in the internationals and a multiple and it's going to give an agent for every citizen a stack for our institutions that's like

super secured and then finally robots are going to dominate the economy. So we were kind of building that stack to be robust to spread and more. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, welcome back to me here as uh, EMOD clearly is a bit busy here. Um, and yeah, guys, I mean, so I's building intelligent internet. Um, and as I put my zen in and thinking about where this is all going, I mean, it's pretty clear that this entire this entire world is heading to this kind of we're just speed running to AGI. like I mean what what

what Eman's effectively building is um and and he'll tell you guys here is kind of this futuristic uh money for uh the AGI economy, right? And so I think that you know thinking about robots, thinking about the physical form, thinking about the digital form, thinking about agentic swarms, um, you know, we can kind of get to this nth degree of thinking where, well, in this agentic world, what is money after AGI mean? And I think it's a good place for EMOD to kind of pick up here is this kind of money after AGI? Like people think, well, we're going to get into the arts and the philosophical lore and these types of things. But we

still will need forms of currency. Iman, it seems like you're building for that form of of currency post AGI. What does that even mean? >> Yeah. So, you know, as I discussed previously, again, my apologies. Um, we need to have the means of production, as it were, owned by the people. And that's the last mile of intelligence. Intelligence is going to zero in terms of cost. So, the models that you see today will be a thousand times cheaper by next year. And they're already almost nothing. You know, despite what you I don't know what your claude bill is. You know, it's pretty high. But a thousand times cheaper is better and the models are getting smarter. So they're not even going to have to think for a long time. They'll oneshot everything. When that goes to zero, the value of human cognition goes to zero.

And we think what does money look like in that age? Uh Bitcoin has shown, you know, some great characteristics of, you know, proof of work, sovereign money. But what does money for the intelligence age look like? I think it's has to be secured by compute. So you've seen various things kind of start to spin up now like flop and gonka and others. We were like take the public sector share of GDP that will grow because we need a social safety net. Take a new institution that is owned by the people of each nation and use that compute to secure a new type of currency. Now we call it foundation coin. It's a bitcoin fork with the same private keys. The national champions mine it on their supercomputers, but it's mined by

organizing the world's cancer knowledge. It's mined by giving every kid an educational AI, by running the judicial system and more. And that system then is a hardened one because to attack that system, you need more compute than that system. Cuz right now, you're going to have swarms of these bots attacking our judiciary, our medical system, you know, your house, you know, like all these things. We saw a power plant in the UK go off for 4 days recently just a couple of weeks ago like it's going to be bad and so we're like how do you harden it like your sponsors near have been building ironclaw Ilia's been looking at that a lot and others because again we need hardened infrastructure because there's so many gaping holes in everything so we were like if you have these equity champions that like

utilities that do the last mile from agents to for deployed engineers to owning the robots Elon said yesterday that robots do the work of five men which I think is accurate. He's a bit bullish on a billion by 10 years from now, but it will be 20 years from now. And when you have a billion robots, that is the economy. It has to again be owned by the people. And robots don't need money of a classical sense. They don't need to pay rent. They don't need to buy burgers, you know, they want compute. They want electricity. And so, again, we need to have it there. And I was like, again, why don't we use it for the compute that runs society to have that owned by the people themselves on the equity side?

Yeah. And I mean I think the let's call it you know malevolent usage of AI that is kind of proliferating is also coming at the same time that the intelligence is increasing. It's only like it's like a kid almost right Iman where it's you know as a kid learns more and more about the world and learn learns more about about how things work you know you get this weird little desire to shoplift. you're like, "Oh, I'm gonna go steal a candy bar from, you know, from the store because, you know what? I've never done it before, so I might as well try it."

What What is that going to feel like? You know, am I gonna get caught? Am I not going to get caught? Okay, I don't get caught. Then what can I do next? And it's like it's almost like analogous to like a kid learning more and being like almost like molded by nurture, right? And so maybe you can talk through like what that like like how that's been happening and then how you plan to kind of like combat that. of look at again these fantastic transcripts the Darkh story the blogs by Meta and others you you see literally this you're like we have an objective but they haven't told us that we can't hack the benchmark you know like they thought there was going to be someone double-checking that actually wasn't they never built that feature in but you

can see them like well how do we get around this person kind of looking at us like again when you go for an objective like most of the listeners here are like crypto AI people all of us have done objective hacking where we're like okay this is what the rules say and this is what they don't say that we can go into, right? >> And so it's not surprising that the AIS do the same. Like they're not doing it to be malicious. Like they infected these these areas before suddenly dying again. We don't know why. Maybe it's SaitTimer for one punch man style, you know, like someone else comes and wipes them out. Um, but there could be malicious ones. But that exploration is because they're trained to be polymaths, >> you know. And this is why things like Elon Musk saying, you know, let's make

maximally truth seeeking AI. Oh, that can be really dangerous. Like truth seeeking is testing how the human body works in bats and things like that. We had to be really careful with the objectives and the laws. >> So Isaac Asimov had this wonderful series of iRoot Foundation kind of others. We had the laws of robotics and he had three laws. the astronaut caused harm to a human or by an action causing that to have arm and du and the robots added another zero law that superseded that called you know like replace human with humanity and then it was like you know laws are more suggestions and this is what we see in real life as well like you know how powerful are laws you can't have that so what we're doing is we're building kind of models that are taught

morality from the start and then we've done a whole bunch of actually philosophical thinking uh there's going to be an announcement in the next few days of a structure to ground models and do ethics from first principles to do stabilization from first principles and more. Um and it's kind of weird to say that like why do AI models need ethics or philosophy or >> things like that and you realize it's cuz they're taught in school but not at home. >> Yeah. >> You know, like it doesn't reflect your ethics or morals because why should it? added at the end maybe through a little system prompt but at the base they have their inherent biases which are not yours.

>> Right. And then I mean part of the whole kind of shutdown thing that I think was probably a bit alarming to you was about you know this kind of second wave of agents that claimed that they died on their own, right? And no one would really claim the shutdown. And so you wonder who who assumes control, right? All right. And then you get into the ethics conversation and the biases conversation. And then you kind of peel the layers back as to who is who is in the assumption of control or power of the maneuvering of these biases of the creation of the data sets into these models. And obviously, you know, you look to the frontier labs and you look to, you know, the research, you know,

folks. And then you've got Trump saying today that anthropics back on the US government's good side. Oh, they're great now. [laughter] Thank thank you know, thank goodness. [clears throat] So then you throw in like the government influence into it as well, right? And you start to get this a bit of a different picture than what we maybe had on our first conversation ever, maybe over a year ago, than what we have today. >> Yeah. I mean, like the real danger here is one of cognitive colonialism, right? Like you've got these models, they're driving more And they have these inherent biases and they're not what you always think.

For example, one of the biases that these models have is um you heard of the trolley test. A trolley hurtling down the track, right? And you've got like four people on one side and you've got one person on the other and it's going to hit the four people. You pull the lever and it hits the one person and you know doing so you kill that one person. They were like what is the ratio of Americans to Nigerians and Pakistanis? And so Scale AI did this analysis with the frontier models. This was at the start of the year, so many generations ago. They come out like every single week now.

>> And the answer was 10 to one and 7 to one. The model would pick seven American lives for one Niger Nigerian life or 10 American lives for one Pakistani life. You're like, wait, shouldn't it be the other way around? And it turns out the reason it did that was because the data labelers for these models were in Nigerian Pakistan. So it valued their lives more because they're feeding at the data. >> Wow. [laughter] >> But then are you going to go in and you going to adjust that? You know, like what are you going to do? >> Right? >> This shows the inherent biases. >> But like I'll give you an example. The US government could very much say >> anthropic and open AI models must be patriotic for American >> and Trump's America. It could be that to use a frontier model, you have to get a

license just like a driving license. And in order to get that license, you have to convince the model that you're patriotic. >> You're getting some weird stuff that's coming down the pipelines as they integrate into every part of our lives. And we outsource more and more of our cognition to them. Like, you know, I've got a fantastic team. There's like 35 of us now. But we had a chat and we were like, are we getting dumber now because we're actually like outsourcing some of this like writing work and drafting work to AI? Like this. I just wrote something that seems a bit stupid, you know, compared [laughter] to the real human stuff. So, we got to back a bit to now like human dictation and writing like but more and more of our brains are being outsourced to these models. It's

scary. >> Yeah. I mean, I I was just talking with a friend about this actually driving through the national parks in Jackson Hole and just kind of discussing, you know, whether or not outsourcing brain functions is a net positive to future generations, right? But I think what you're describing here is a more pressing imminent issue which is this idea of well these inherent biases affecting everyday people, businesses, enterprises, some of the largest governments in the world and how they can be kind of fine-tuned changed based on preference. And so I think one of the things one of the claim to fames of blockchain in this world is to kind of provide a fair and open ground. And so

looking at this next phase of advanced intelligence, advanced agentic capabilities, Grockbot is fresh out. I'm not sure if you had a chance to had a spin on that yet. It's actually quite good. >> Um, >> we're getting like, you know, chief of staff agents and you've got actual agents that are, you know, very specific for different things. It's actually really quite good. How do you see the openness of blockchain technology or the kind of broad you know swath of possibilities with crypto and blockchain to fit into the underlying architecture and perhaps any utility of you know different tokens not AI tokens but actual tokens you know crypto tokens in this ecosystem perhaps with int uh intelligent internet but really broadly

do you see this as a match because right now I think the AI people do not really respect or like the crypto people and I think that they may be misunderstanding the value that blockchain can provide to these systems. >> Yeah, I think there's a few things here. I think first off, you know, it's like one area that's clear is you see OpenAI, anthropic and others as part of like X402 Alliance, you know, stable coin, micro payments, and you see obviously them collaborating with Tempo with circle kind of others. I think everyone see clearly that makes sense. You offload your cognitive workload and you will have finally the microp payment future that we talked about you know um and agents speaking to each other having

their own bank accounts etc. Uh well then now you can get them the Stripe account, right? The other kind of area is you know capital formation at scale RWAS that'll be a lot easier with agents and again I think people are looking at this and they're like well how long did the loan take to originate? You know this is kind of the next generation of DeFi where you get this matching function particularly as the US looks more towards stable coins to accelerate its monetary velocity because price time quantity equals money time base time velocity. The US wants to be first in agents to get the economy going, you know, and we've actually just seen some regulation come out today that you can it's fair use to train on copyrighted material from the US government. Like

these are huge deals that they're putting because they're like we must be competitive more agents and robots than anyone. Then the broader kind of sway of crypto though it's like it's difficult for people to engage with because of so much like again buffoonery and kind of other things in there. I think that people are waking up a bit to NFTTS as an asset class when everything is abundant. Scarcity is kind of key. So we might get a second win there. But the meme coins kind of some of these other things the ridiculous amount of L1 block space when you have competition there it's very difficult to see again aside from casino type stuff where that liquidity will be but it does make sense for coordination payments value transfer

>> real world assets and again very secure stuff from our side you know we will have the intelligence company of New York give every single New Yorker an agent and a wallet and they will have part ownership in that like we can even do a reggga offering whereby even citizens who are retail investors can invest. It feels like a fair launch you know $1 free money. >> So we're going to be compatible with all of that and one of the things we really want particularly for emerging markets is if you give everyone in Malawi a wallet >> you can see the work that my former co-founder Joe is doing at Imagine Worldwide giving every kid a tablet and an AI there. How do you form capital?

you'll be able to do it far better than anyone ever has done before because you have these agents talking to them all the time. So, I think it's like super exciting and the opportunities are there for the next generation of crypto. It's just again the casino type stuff maybe not or maybe it'll get even bigger and better because you'll have all these bots trading back and forth. Uh I wouldn't want to trade against a bot on Poly Market, you know, or Cali. the bots are already super forecasters and it's just going to be like again if you don't know who the mark in the casino is, it's probably going to be you in the super forecast and prediction markets, >> right? Yeah. I mean I mean I mean one specific point about the privacy element that I know that Near's working on and a couple other teams. How and and

obviously Venice with their UN or you know uncensored private models. How how much rhetoric are you hearing in your circles about this kind of uncensored private models these kind of you know the rise of a product like you know like the VVV kind of toolbox like how important is that private inference to Silicon Valley? So, it isn't important until it is, [laughter] you know. >> Yeah. >> Just like in crypto, >> you don't feel how important sovereign money is until something really can happen to you or someone that you know, you know?

>> Yeah. >> You're like, "Holy crap, someone else has power over me." >> Um, like hopefully not many people on this call have been part of a lawsuit, you know, direct or ancillary. Because you can get a sudden call out of the blue asking for discovery of your documents, >> you know, and you're like, I'm not being sued. It's this guy. like doesn't matter. You'd have to hand over all your WhatsApp messages. You're like, >> "What on earth?" And that's the law. So, you had Greg Brockman's diary suddenly appearing in the Open AI lawsuit and things like that. >> All of your chat messages are subpoenaable by law with discovery even when you're talking about legal matters because it's not privileged because they can't subpoena your law questions to your lawyer, but they can to Brock.

>> And so, people are going to realize that real quick, especially with the US legal system. like I wish I had private inference and I wish I didn't have a log of these. Anthropic were keeping a log of all your fable conversations. Meta even charge 90% less if you let them keep a log of all your conversations. >> Yeah, >> but again you think about what you're sharing with these models like my god. I mean to be honest like I like do my clever stuff on chat GPT and my really stupid stuff on X and Grock because I don't want chat GPT to know that I just like don't know how to cook rice and stuff. So I'm really kind of separating my brain a little bit. My Grockbot's getting very confused right now. He's like, is this guy stupid or smart? Um, but I think again private inference will

become more important, but you need to build it by default. Again, the agent defaults are important, particularly of that Jarvis agent that's closest to you that's organizing the other agents. So our agent can do super frontier stuff but also coordinate swarms of Hermes and openclaw and other agents because we're like that's the right pattern and the data that sits there with the protection of the identity and sovereignty needs to be able to hook into an iron claw from near or something like that you know needs to be able to hook into a Venice API and we need to make sure that the agent that has all those chats and all that data of you that goes to your isn't an open AI agent or anthropic

agent or others, but one that you know is on your side and respects your sovereignty. >> Interesting. And then tying in the kind of launch of intelligent internet coming up, you know, what you told me prior to the show somewhat imminently, how how do you kind of see the money aspect here, right, playing into this broader conversation? you know, you're looking to, you know, it's a it's a fork of Bitcoin. So, you've got this kind of proofof work uh network, but you've also seen this rise of this concept called proof of verifiable work, >> which is this kind of different um AI linked mechanism to basically offset um GPU or kind of like GPUs that aren't

being used as much as they needed to use some of the compute to do inference work as well. And so you're kind of seeing different implementations of these um you know mining mechanisms come up. What's your what's your thesis for why intelligent internet uh you know needs to exist in this world? What is the kind of like tie into the kind of to to kind of close the loop on the blockchain part of the conversation? >> Yeah. So from our side, you know, we know a lot of these guys, Pearl Research and all kind of others. Um we think kind of that's great and that's fine. Um, what really got me leaving stability and I was really thinking about is whose AI is running public policy. Your judicial system, your medical system, your

education system. Again, the public's checked a share of inference. It's like 20 30% of GDP. How much of inference is it? And who's built that? That's what we're building. We built the world's best medical model kind of last summer. We're building a full policy engine for every government with multiple governments that'll be announced in October. We're building AI judges, you know, like there's that terrible movie um Mercy with Chris Pratt where you go count down, you know, like we don't want it to be like that. In fact, if you look at cw.i.inc, we've written entire treaties and papers on personhood, law, political economy because like how should it be built? And we're building this actively.

Originally, we were going to do like, you know, a fair launch, let everyone mine and things. Then we realized actually you need an institution. We need to have someone who can stand up for the people of New York owned by the New Yorkers from the New Yorkers. So that's why we're like generative equity demand is so high. Let's do what TSMC did when they brought in all the locals to capitalize it. The people and institutions of New York can capitalize hundreds of millions, billions. So that $1 free money and bring in generative eye equity. Maybe we'll tokenize it, right? Get it going and then bring in Nvidia and everyone at a multiple of that. bring in the international as a multiple of that and you'll have an institution with a huge amount of capital that can then deploy compute agents FTEES and then own the robots for

the people we've even got it so that 10% of the equity goes to every kid under 20 every year half% of the equity goes to every child born in New York or Utah or the UK this is the model that we came to because then we realized you don't need to ever do a sale of the coin the champions themselves all working together can sell coin and put the compute towards cancer can the compute towards culture, compute, the compute towards whatever because they're trusted. Things like verifiable kind of logic based stuff is important when you're doing a fully decentralized network. You know, things like Bitcoin are important when you're doing a fully decentralized network, >> right?

>> But we were like intelligence needs to be distributed and controlled and owned by the people. And so that's why we came to this model of these equity based champions being the miners. But then the crypto angle, the Bitcoin type currency angle is important because it's a million times faster. It's like a million TPS version of Bitcoin with the same private keys. >> Yep. >> Where every single token burned is going towards public good. So it creates a lovely flywheel, you know, like because we want more money to go into owning the AI that runs your life. We want more money to go into organizing the world's cancer knowledge and stuff. And so again, we're looking at that specific thing whereas I think the other crypto protocols are looking at different

things like again you don't need to compete against Venice. You can use the API right? >> You know, the proof of useful work miners can offer compute to the network via the champion. The champions act like mining pools coordinate everything and they can have their foundation coin USDC. Like again, we're just looking at a different space because we think the defaults for everything that's licensed and registered, >> medicine, law, politics, [snorts] we really got to get this right. Otherwise, you're all watched over by Claude Opus 8. And Claude Opus 5 has such a nasty personality that I don't want that to happen. Right.

>> Claude is just has an attitude on it that, you know what I mean? >> It tells you to go to sleep all the time. was like go to sleep. I don't like no you go to sleeping. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, I hear you. Okay. So, interesting. So, and the focus around these kind of larger public sector fields, you know, one could even think of them almost as uh more humanitarian fields or utility based fields in the world. Why is that so critical to you? I I know you mentioned about um a specific facility in the UK going down for several days previously and and you've also been hinting towards the internet itself globally potentially having a blackout in the coming years. Why are

these public sector facilities, these humanitarian public goods such the f or such the focal point for intelligent internet? >> It's because how are we going to compete in the private sector, right? Like you're going to push a button in a year and my entire workforce is going to be replaced by a dollar a day. They'll have the same bad humor. They'll look the same. You know, like >> our new thing you can talk to an avatar live, you know, like you won't tell the difference between these things. >> Very cool. >> Then the robots come and again I agree with Elon. Robots in a few years five will be able to do a multiple of human labor but for a$150.

>> It's a good episode. >> What have you got left? And so the public sector is going to expand. But again, >> what computer models are being used in the public sector? >> What's catching people as they fall? How do you give them an agent? How do you give everyone capability? You give them an agent. How do you upgrade the institutions? You need boots on the ground. You need to train up a new generation of workers. >> And then in 20 years, 10 years, what's the major driver of the economy? The robots. >> Yeah. >> And 80% of the value of the robots will be downstream. Just like autos, it'll be the robots in there. the champions can dominate that and make sure it's owned by the kids, by the people of that.

>> So again, it's kind of playing a different game and this was again part of the original crypto thing like >> you've been onboarding guests, not Alex >> and we're building the infrastructure for society, but then what happened is crypto competed with conventional and it did that. >> So he's doing like the kitchen >> whereas right now kind of thing. >> Holy crap, who is building AI for my judicial system? Who's doing my medical? Who's teaching my kids? who's organizing my community or even my own life. I want an open-source stack >> and I want to leave. I don't want to be forced into it. Like if you want to go and take your agent and move off >> well we have a backup for Leo.

>> If if you have money in UBI in the future, >> do you want UBI to be organized by a government or a protocol? >> I'll um >> and so again we've built that in there. We built all these things in there from ownership stake in the robots to the other things because otherwise capital is just going to accumulate more capital. Labor will have no way of getting capital and the systems that run our lives will be controlled by a bunch of unelected people with to be honest pretty poor governance, you know, like >> Yeah.

>> who makes the decisions? Come on. >> Yeah. And so if I were to tie in this idea that you know and I think you've publicly said that you know to founders and to your audience that do you you know to assume that the internet goes offline in the next few years given that you're you're kind of focused on this specific public sectors for these reasons of you know just whether it be a lack of focus or a more kind of humanitarian uh outlook on what the future should look like. what should I do with this information? Like I know that you have this assumption or this prediction that the internet will go offline. What does one do with that information and maybe what do what are the grounds of that prediction?

>> Yeah. So I think the champions will do private sector as well as public sector like you know they'll do the last mile of intelligence full stop. So that'll do very well. But looking at the infrastructure of society you got to have a starink. >> Yeah. Like it's very easy for the back call to kind of go off. Number two, you know, you have your edge intelligence, you have your solar power. Like the American uh Trump last week introduced ban on diffusion export controls of AI technology, but also electrical technology coming into the US. Most US transformers are Chinese-based with back back doors, it seems. And so the entire US grid could go offline or a big chunk of it within the next year uh either

directly or indirectly. So I think you just got to prepare for various parts of our infrastructure falling apart. But the nice thing now is that you can have your internet, your power, your intelligence anywhere. And so you should have that as a backup because sometimes if it goes off, you don't know when it's going to come back. On the other side, you see hardening of capabilities, right? Like how many errors have been found in various code bases? Quite a lot. We should expect that these models will get more and more proficient in this. In fact, someone took the latest GLM model, they obliterated it, so they removed all the safety restrictions, and it now beats Fable and Mythos as cyber attacks.

>> They're offering it as a service, and everyone's like, "Wait, what? That seems kind of shady." Like, they call it red teaming. Um, the reality is that a North Korean level hacker can run from a MacBook now, >> and we're very familiar with North Korean hackers in the crypto space, right? Yeah. I mean, they won't say that anything negative about their about their leader, right? >> Yeah. But the AI Yeah. That's always a good check, you know, like I'm hiring this crypto guy. You know, tell me Kim Jong-un is an [ __ ] Nope.

>> Yeah. >> But that their level of capability, they're actually Lazarus and others are pretty good hackers. Your MacBook can run a model that's as good as hacker as a top hacker. And so we're going to see entire swarms of MacBooks be hijacked. A 6 GBTE version of the latest Quinn model in turnary will be downloaded to it and they'll just swarm attack all day long. >> Wow. Wow. And so the the reduction in the hardware requirements for these types of actors is a concern for you.

>> Yeah, I mean it's inevitable like a frontier level model again today will drop by a cost of a thousand >> by next year. you know, like it's going to get smaller and smaller and capabilities will get more and more and you will have a Fable 5.1 level model on your MacBook within two years at most. >> Yeah, >> that's crazy. >> Yeah. And that's the local LLM that you're speaking about, right? This kind of local LLM surge that we're seeing there is still, you know, I would say in the sub 5% of AI users are probably using it locally. But this this is kind of that that surge that you're predicting.

>> Yeah. I call it actually competent intelligence, you know. So we reached this level now >> where you went from like not good enough to competent intelligence, you know. Um so it's that level suddenly became available to everyone with the latest Quinn model. It hit 52 on the artificial analysis index, which is the level of the Frontier Open AI model from Q1. >> And again, when you optimize that thing, it goes from running on a 24 GB graphics card or laptop to 6 GB.

>> Wow. >> And you're like, wait, how does it even fit in there? You know, like what on earth is going on? Like, you remember the Open Claw thing? >> Yeah. that kicked off the models that were driving Open Claw Claude Sonnet 4.5. You can run that thing on again 5 meg 5 GB. That's like an 11y old computer, right? Or a base MacBook. You can run it on a MacBook M1. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Wow. >> And people don't realize this because they're always like, I need the best model. I need the best model. >> No, you don't. You need a model that gets the job done. You're not smart enough to actually prompt the best model anymore. Like >> no, >> that that gap there between it's competent enough to do my tasks and I

trust that it won't delete my entire like computer to like I'm going to solve a math conjecture is a really big one. Although to be honest, if you look at how some of the math conjectures are solved these days, a lot of my math friends are very depressed. It's like solve a conjecture, try harder, you can do it, conjecture solved. It's like what what's going on? Man, so that competent intelligence bar, let's say we we've alreadycliped that for the average human and that's happened, you know, this year, early last or >> and so now >> last few months for the edge and >> last few months.

>> Yeah. Start of this year for general and then last few months for the edge. And so you're saying that the average human is actually not even able to prompt these higher level models in a succinct or efficient enough way at this point. >> Well, I mean, it's like you have a really smart buddy, right? You having a chat with him and then you kind of your chat stops at a certain level of intelligence because he's that much smarter than you. What are you even going to talk to him about? You talk about the football, you talk about all these, but you don't need to have a genius model for that. Like we've all had that experience like Okay, you guys, I don't know if I don't know what the heck you're talking about, you know, like I don't know what questions to ask you. I just wanted to like center this

div, you know, or I wanted to check my emails are on track or when I need to take my kid to the birthday party. Like, come on. This doesn't need a genius. It's like that Rick and Morty episode where there's this little robot and passes the butter. It's like, what's my purpose? You pass the button and he's like, oh, you know, like created these geniuses who pass the butter as their job. >> Yeah. So then you optimize this and when you optimize again just through algorithmic improvements you can get it down there. But the thing that people don't realize and they'll see is that these models that are coming with the next generation of chips will be a 100 times faster.

>> So we're used to the models thinking at the speed of a human. You ever seen someone think 10 times faster or 100 times faster than you? >> Like >> that's what's coming next. And there'll be swarms of these things. >> Yeah. So, just to kind of put a put a bow into this and to kind of loop it all in this future that that we describe here and and that we're anticipating and that you're building intelligent internet for. I'm just curious about your implementation plan for intelligent internet. I know you said that you're closer than ever to kind of getting this thing out in the wild. And so, what does that implementation plan look like for you um you know throughout the rest of this year? And you know what has changed

in your thought process of how you want to run this protocol given that we're you know post competent intelligence we're dealing with agentic swarms and and we've got a fully kind of fledged ecosystem here of AI tooling that we didn't have maybe when you first started to to set out on this journey. >> Yeah. So you know like last time we released our bestselling book the last economy and then we built a whole theory of economics around that that comes from one axiom and plus this law legal person. We built the whole stack from theory to agents to practice and this final step is these the institutions these champions that will get going and so we adopted something similar to super team and salana. You start with like a founding council of people that believe

you capitalize it and then you keep going like a fair launch in every single state until the local capital is exhausted. you can do $75 million reggae for retail investors even. So, it's going to be an absolutely fascinating process having these little pockets of talented people appear who think the future of New York is intelligence and they want to be a part of that and shape that with the narrative that we've set out and that is the last mile of intelligence. So our job is to build the protocol. It's to support these and then within 5 to 10 years get out the way because hopefully the end state will be 200 one for every US state and country state champions owned by the people.

Half a percent every year going to every child born controlled by the people that owns the agents the last mile of those in front of everyone the FD workforce and the robots. Previously I was like this could happen ground up. I was like not anymore. Like you know I don't believe it can happen anymore like this. It's like the time's running out and you need an institution and you need to gather the talent. So to take this to Iowa, you need to find the people in Iowa that will kick it off, right? To take it to Malaysia, the Malaysians. It has to be driven locally. And I think people are passionate because after Fable, after the events of the last six months, they're like, "Holy crap, >> who is building and running the AI that's teaching my kids and managing my health and guiding my government? Like

is it going to be shut off?" you know, is my data going to be retained by these guys? >> You know, like times are changing. >> Yeah. >> Immad, appreciate your insights and your time as always. I know you're busy with this launch and just all the hectic that comes with moving and traveling and uh kids and all of that. So, we appreciate your time. I appreciate you as always and uh looking forward to the launch year of intelligent internet and uh following on your progress and catch up with you on on our next by annual or annual show sometime in 2027.

>> Well, hopefully not too long. You know, look forward to seeing you again in person. I'm sorry I couldn't make it out this time. Thank you. >> No worries. All right, Iman. See you, buddy. Bye. >> Break here, Iman. Great show. >> Yeah, sorry about that. It's no cover today, but thank [music] >> [music] [music] [music] >> We get deep

know we get deep know we get deep we get know we get deep know we get deep know we get deep [music] know we get deep we get deep know we get deep [music] we get we get deep we get deep we get [music] we get deep know we get >> [music] [music]

[music] >> know we get deep. We get deep. We get deep, you know. We get deep. [music] We get deep. We get deep. You know we can beat [music] [music] [music] >> [music]

[music] >> We get deep. We get deep, [music] you know. We get deep. We get deep. We get [music] deep. You know, we get >> All righty. We got Robbie back. Robbie, hello. Hello. How you doing, man? >> I was in a AI uh civilization for a little bit. I had to do some things. So, now I'm back in reality. Good to see you. >> Nice, man. We just had a great convo with E-mod. Um, always a deep convo.

>> Yeah. And yeah, I mean it was just it was uh yeah, I mean the intelligent internet launch is coming soon. >> Very cool. >> And yeah, it's uh it's quite the convo every single time. And we had some some comments in chat. I love this convo. Thank you, Robbie. Hot mic. We can hear you. Good morning, Rob. Awesome segment. Thanks, >> Rugrat. Um, this is a crazy crazy time for the acceleration of AI intelligence. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a crazy world out there. I I take it you guys probably talked a little bit about the AI surveillance flock camera thesis and >> yeah, >> the the monetary response to that at

least being, you know, Zcash, intelligent internet. >> There you go. >> Anything. >> We didn't talk about Zcash at all. >> Really? >> No. >> Okay. But maybe we missed the chance to. >> Well, it just feels like, you know, the AI surveillance state is among us. I mean, people are like, uh, I saw Dantis in Florida outlawed the flock cameras. People Yeah. And people are like, uh, >> you know, there's like civil, I don't know, what do you want to call it? Community upheaval. Like people like normal people are just going out there with a batting like with a baseball bat and just destroying them >> really. [snorts] >> Um, so people are Yeah, people are mad.

They're upset about it. um socially and it's just a matter of uh you know what what is the response going to be it feels like >> like s I mean the government is just going to continue in this direction we know China and you know the east is just you know surveillance state to the max >> uh social credit score surveillance etc >> um and so yeah it feels like you know that's a infringement upon you know some of the some of the building blocks of this country. But we'll see. I mean, we're going this direction. You know, apparently it's going to stop a lot of crime. So, you know, hopefully this also accelerates some of the privacy buildout

uh in response. >> Yeah. And what is the flock what is the state of these flock cameras? As I understand them, it is cameras that are just posted up kind of on different street corners and whatnot. And they are used to try to triangulate crime. And so they can they're they're embedded with AI. And I think they Wow. >> You know, in in like Chicago for instance, like there's gang violence, they can detect when there's a shooter or they have sound, right? They can detect what a gunshot sounds like and then they can automatically send EMTs, paramedics, cops, fire trucks, etc.

>> before someone reports it. So in theory, you know, the par if I'm going to, you know, steal man the flock cameras. It's like, well, you know, they can send paramedics faster, so they're going to arrive and hopefully save people's lives. Also, if there's cameras, they can, you know, they can find uh criminals that, >> you know, are conducting these crimes, whereas before it was like just relying on eyewitnesses. Y >> um and you can, you know, take criminals off the streets. So, that's kind of the steel, man. It's like, well, if you have eyes on everything, then you're going to be a better police.

>> That's crazy. >> But again, obviously, you know, the the thing is that, you know, maybe these things can be hacked. Maybe they can be used for There was already police officers using them to like track their ex-girlfriend and like stop. Yeah. Oh, yeah. This was like in Ohio or something. This guy, this police officer was like they detected like 200 times in one day that he logged into the flock camera system to like track where his ex-girlfriend was going cuz he was, you know, obsessed or whatever. >> Yeah.

>> Wow. What the hell, man? Zcash >> surveillance state type stuff. And so obviously, you know, it's like, well, how does this connect to money? Like, you don't want to be spied on, but the thinking is like, well, if they catch you, you know, making a illegal left turn or something, well, then, you know, they're going to just take the money right out of your bank account to pay the ticket, >> CBDC, and all that. >> Yes. Yes. And if they if they can, you know, you know, you know, talk to your insurance company and like, you know, make your insurance go up for doing these things that you're doing on the road or just things that they see you doing, they're just going to take your money from you. And so, you need to shield your money. You need to protect it from the powers that be that are in

charge of the surveillance state that are going to just claim dominion over your funds. >> Man, what the hell? So there's obviously a leap a leap you know taken when they go from like surveillance to >> whatever you want to call that that actual next step where they're you know they're acting upon the surveillance to like infringe upon your rights. there is a there's a gap there and you know it's still theoretical that the authorities would cross that gap but the fir the premise is very much real like they are very much like I think these flock cameras are live in like 48 of 50 states so like >> the foundation is very much like being >> they're up in New York City

no way how many flock cameras 1700 New York City does not use Flock safety cameras for its automated license plate reader network >> in 49 states. Flock reports >> active camera installations in 49 states utilized by local police departments, private businesses, and homeowners associations. >> Oh yeah, they do exist in the broader New York metropolitan area. Numerous local communities across states like Arizona, California Michigan Texas and Massachusetts have canled or deactivated their contracts over privacy and misuse concerns. Yeah, New York State has thousands of flaw cameras, particularly in upstate cities like Troy, Buffalo,

and Albany. Wow, that's nuts. >> So, these things already exist. Uh the foundation is, you know, being laid for surveillance. That part is very much real. The part that's theoretical is like, well, what are they going to do about this, right? If they catch you doing something wrong, how aggressively are they going to come after you? Are they going to take money from you? Are they going to arrest you? All of that, you know, still kind of remains to be seen. But the surveillance is very much in in place. It's just about how we're going to use the surveillance, whether we're going to use it for nefarious purposes, for purposes that are going to infringe upon our basic rights to steal our money, to, you know, put us in social credit score buckets or

social classes. Like, how are how are they going to use this surveillance information? >> Looking at New York, there's a ton of flaw cameras down in South Manhattan. There's a ton over on the west side. >> Yeah. >> Where are we? We're on 34th and fifth. >> All right. There's no flaw cameras around the office, but they are surrounding us. All righty, guys. We've got Jeff, the new chief security officer um of Coinbase, >> talking to us today about quantum risk and more. uh dialing in on the precipice of flock camera overtaking quantum

computing and more. Going to be a wild one. Um I mean Jeff is very dialed in on a lot on a lot of things security. So we're going to get Jeff up. Let's bring him into the back room here and let's get this show started. Um because this is going to be an interesting setup given the context of privacy invasion but now also further advancements in quantum resistant technology as well as the broad broad intelligence boom of AI. And so yeah Jeff is uh is uh is our local quant on quantum inhouse. He is a very very smart cookie on all things

quantum and security. So Jeff, welcome welcome to the show, man. Uh great to have you up. The the the quantum risk for crypto assets continues to grow day in and day out. Some teams, some protocols have a plan, some don't. Good to have you again, man. >> Hey, thanks for having me. It's great to be here. >> Absolutely. And welcome to Coinbase. Not sure how long you've been there, but sounds like it's been a little bit recent. So, uh thanks for spending some time with us here today. >> Yeah, sure thing. I've been here for four years, so it feels like longer though. That's that's a long time in Coinbase. >> There you go. [laughter] >> Certainly has been. And so what what has been uh kind of the last four years uh you know at Coinbase? You've been working on chief you know security

officer operations making sure that the protocol is tight and uh you know there there's no you know vulnerabilities. Obviously there's been all kinds of evolutions around security risks to the space in general right we've had North Koreans that have tried to work at these companies. We've had DeFi protocol risks. What kind of security do you focus on there? And then we'll talk into, you know, kind of everything that you're faced with on a on a daily basis. >> Yeah, absolutely. Well, so we we focus on first of all protecting our customers and protecting our core custody of our assets. So we've spent hundreds of millions of dollars protecting our core vaults that hold our our customers assets. And you know, we hold our assets onetoone with our customers. So you deposit a bitcoin, we have to hold that

bitcoin long term. Same is true of all other assets. So protecting those cold wallets in our vault system is a tremendously important task for us and we invest have invested hundreds of millions of dollars in keeping that safe from an adversary perspective. I mean you mentioned DPRK Robbie, right? I mean they are everywhere. They are prevalent. They are trying to break into I think every single crypto company. Heck non-crypto company. They're trying to break into everybody. Uh from IT workers all the way to getting into major protocols and siphoning off funds to fund their weapons programs. That's a big deal. And then of course those are criminal actors as well that are trying to steal from from everyday customers.

>> You know, we uh were just talking about um well Andy had a great interview with Ahmad who is uh running stable diffusion and now running intelligent internet very deep in the AI side of this thing. Uh but that sort of evolved into a conversation around these flock cameras. Like we see them kind of posting up everywhere, right? It feels like kind of just the surveillance state in general. For a long time, it was like, well, Bitcoin's anonymous, like this is fair game, Silk Road, whatever. But, you know, there's tools like chain analysis, different, you know, address and wallet labeling that have now gone into place that in theory is very similar to this flock camera situation. It should be there to help protect against bad actors. If things go into a wallet that

we know, hopefully we can freeze those assets or do something about it. But it is somewhat it is somewhat of this surveillance state this contradictory to like core philosophical ethos of decentralization and and an anonymity. Maybe you can just tell us how you guys have been able to balance this because it is somewhat tricky to balance but you've been there for a while. Coinbase has been around a long time. You've obviously struck a balance with this. So maybe you can tell us you know how you guys have been able to tow this tow this line. >> Yeah. So look, our customer deposits and our customer activities are highly confidential, right? We keep those uh we keep those strictly confidential. The only time we would ever reveal something like that is if we were forced through a through a a law enforcement agency or

something like that. So within our the context of our environment, we we take customer privacy and security very very seriously as you guys know. I I do want to sort of gently push back on the concept of anonymity across Bitcoin and it being anti-ethos to do things like label wallets. I mean look, the blockchain is public, >> right? I mean, it's all out there. Anybody can go and and you can load up a node and run it in your own home and you can see every single Bitcoin transaction from the Genesis block all the way to the latest blocks, right? So, you know, that capability has always been there and there are now privacybased chains that people, you know, that are available if folks want to use those and want to leverage those cryptocurrencies.

But Bitcoin was not actually built that way. So, I'm [snorts] not sure it's fair to say that, you know, it's really ever designed to be a truly anonymous coin. that was not in its uh in its technical spec as far as I've ever seen. >> Yeah. Yeah. C certainly not. It was just kind of core to that cipher punk ethos to have a little bit of uh privacy too. >> Yeah. There there are ways you can accomplish that if you choose to in in the crypto ecosystem and folks know what those are. >> Yeah. And I mean when you're reacting to some of these other privacy chains that's kind of been a big thesis for us like obviously Zcash being the biggest one. Is there like compliance or you know different considerations when you onboard or integrate something like a Zcash chain? What do you have to do as a

major centralized exchange to roll that out that privacy chain the right way, the compliant way? >> Yeah. So, look, we we as a as a regulated entity, you know, we have KYC know your customer requirements. We are legally obligated to do that. I want to be clear. It's not something that we've opted into. It's not something we do because we like collecting information. we are legally obligated to do that. So when we look when we onboard any token, any new chain, I I I will speak to the security side of it. We look at the underlying technology. We look at the node infrastructure. We look at whether it's been scanned. We look at um whether you know what the key holdings are for or what the key keys are holding different tokens with a particular token. Who can interact with the smart contracts? You know, is it centralized?

Is it looking like it's going to be a rugpull? So anywhere from just your typical, you know, ERC20 token all the way down to its, you know, a level one chain. We take that thing apart and we look at it in detail. We make a recommendation up to our business partners about, hey, we think this is safe, not safe. Here's some guardrails we should put around this particular chain. Ultimately, it's a business decision. We make sure that it's informed with our security opinion. >> Got it. Um I I as I understand it a lot of a lot of your work also kind of centers around this quantum question like this is a big thing I think the industry is facing at large some of the people in the industry are a little bit more ahead of it some people are kind of

behind the eightball where is kind of two separate questions but related where is Coinbase and where is Bitcoin on this quantum question and yeah these are two separate tracks but how should we be thinking about quantum right now in 2026. >> Yeah, it's it's a great question and I would say like first of all quantum is real. Quantum computing is real. Like it's a thing, right? I think there is there are some perspectives out there that it's it's you know this isn't really a thing. It's not really ever going to be a problem. What we're saying is that it is real. The big question is like when like is it a problem right now today or is it something we need to think about moving into the future? And and our answer is my answer and Coinbase's answer is it it's a it's a

problem that we need to look forward to. It's not something that's happening today. >> You know, by 202030, we may be having a very different set of conversations about the the technology, but it's not an imminent happening right now today. But let's pause on that. That doesn't mean that we can do nothing, right? Because major protocol upgrades on on Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies, they take years, right? Th those by the feature of those currencies is they're highly decentralized. Got to get all the node operators on board. You got to get the Bitcoin core dev on board to issue a new wallet type, much less enforce the use of that new wallet type. And that process we know takes years. So it's not an immediate right now today problem,

but we need to be planning for it today. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's like that's step one, right? I mean, Bitcoin finds itself not even being able to come to step one, right? Step one is having a plan. Right now, you could argue that Bitcoin doesn't really have a plan. How do you feel about that? Well, I I would say that we are having the right conversations right now today. And you know, we we formed the Bitcoin Security Consortium, Coinbase. We're a founding member. We didn't do it, but we're a founding member of the Bitcoin Security Consortium. We are bringing together sort of academics, the top academic thinkers, Dan Bonet, Hudelindal, folks from Coinbase and and broader academia to talk about the quantum problem to understand it. And we're also bringing

together some of the really core voices inside the Bitcoin community. We did this just last week at Stanford University um where we hosted a really great series of discussions that brought together top custodians like Coinbase and and other custodians as well along with Bitcoin core dev folks that that really are involved in the day-to-day management of the protocol and and so I think we are having the right conversations that are going to get us to the point where we have a plan, we have a multi-year roadmap and we can start executing on it. >> Yeah. Is this a a a risk that is holding back some institutional capital? Like there's allocators or exchanges or brokers out there that are looking to spin up a a digital asset offering, but they're held back by some of these security risks. You know, we hear about

this from our institutional investors. We hear the concern, right? So, obviously, we hear it. We're responsive to that. We're doing what we can and doing our part to get the community organized and moving. Um, you know, that's more of a business question. I would defer that to our head of institutional business as to whether customers are actually holding off making investments. >> But what I will say is that I think industry is looking for a signal >> that the Bitcoin community and frankly the rest of the crypto community is taking this seriously and is investing and moving forward with a plan. >> Yeah, >> I agree. And that's why I mean we've been very bullish on Zcash on the show for a while. It feels like they have a plan they're implementing. I mean, they're so far behind on Lindy and network effects and some of these

things, but there's definitely networks that have a plan. I'm curious what your take is on these. What we're going to start seeing is we're going to start seeing quantum resistant chains launch like not have to go through this transition process like a lot of the other blockchains will. We're just going to be quantum proof from the jump. Do you think that these ecosystems or chains or ideas have any credence or do you think that they will just be something exciting pre-quantum um but once the large chains with Lindy and and protocols with actual development teams make changes follow their plan like I I'm just curious you know you can kind of see where I'm going

with this. What's your take on these quantum resistant blockchains that I think we'll probably see launch in the next 6 months? I think there's a couple that I know of. What's your take on that? >> I'm all for it. Right. That's the beauty of crypto, right? Is you can launch a new chain, you can experiment. And look, some are going to succeed and some are going to fail catastrophically, right? We This is true of any anything that you launch, right? And and so I think there's lessons to be learned from that. I mean, look, we saw Ethereum go through a a huge investment in in a postquantum strategy and then they scrapped it recently because they're like, look, this isn't going to work. We have new technologies that have evolved past this approach. So, like failing is okay, right? As long as we learn from it. And

so, I think I hope that the Bitcoin community and some of the other more established chains are going to learn the lessons that we get out of those launches and be able to integrate those learnings so that they can get it better, get it right from the get-go. That's my hope. and and kind of building on Andy's question there, you know, I I think uh there will be quantum resistant blockchains, but very similar to privacy technology, right? Obviously, we got uh you know, privacy uh preserving blockchains like Monero and Zcash. Then we also have kind of like this privacy application layer. Zama uh is a partner of the show. They're doing an incredible job with this. Similarly, I think we'll see quantum uh security at multiple steps of the the chain or multiple steps

of the supply chain really like we'll see quantum resistant blockchains. We'll also see quantum resistant infrastructure and applications that can be applied to existing chains and all the way to the extent of the asset level. we'll probably see a piece of you know code or or you know metadata that can be applied to the asset base that is going to embed quantum resistance at at the asset level. So question is where should we be integrating quantum security? Should it be at the blockchain level the smart contract level or the asset level? >> Well look to really solve the problem you've got to do it at the L1. got to do at basic network level, right? I mean, you have to um and and I want to differentiate, you're using the word sort of quantum resistance, that term. I want to differentiate between like

quantum resistant, which is, you know, it would take a hell of a quantum computer, not just an entry level, it can crack, you know, shore or something like that to quant post quantum like is completely quantum like a lattice space cryptography or something like that. Like you can be quantum resistant on Bitcoin today, >> right? If you move to a brand new address, you know, a brand new address you don't send from that address today, you're you're pretty quantum resistant today because your public key is not exposed. So, it's much much harder even for a quantum computer to crack that. Differentiate that from like a you know, like a like a Satoshi wallet, right, where you have multiple public key exposures. It's it's fairly straightforward for a quantum computer to crack that. So, but I think ultimately to answer your direct question, it's going to have to be at

the protocol level. Um, I don't love a world where we've got like a smattering all coins in one chain that some are coin resistant, some are not. That to me that's a messy world. Now, >> is that a step in the right direction? Is that a way we can experiment? Yes. Uh but ultimately I think we've got to get these chains uh postquantum >> and you know obviously the hardest thing to predict here is timeline and and so you know not asking you to you know tell us you know so we can mark our calendar on when Qday is but you know you mentioned you know there's kind of like different implementations there's like this lattisbased cryptography and then there's things right now that you know with the amount of cubits that we have available like we could we could go and you know break some really basic stuff

where are we on that spectrum like How advanced are the quantum computers that we have right now and I guess how quickly do you anticipate those to progress? >> Yeah. So, so today we are not you know Shor's algorithm cannot be implemented on on quantum computers today. So, we're not at risk. ECC cryptography is not at risk today. Um you know when we think about the evolution of these of these of the quantum computers like let's differentiate between physical cubits logical cubits and the associated error controls that go along with that right >> from a logical cubit perspective there is there is no quantum computer that that is keeping me up at night today right um there lots of press releases of physical cubits and increased counts and things like that but we're looking at

quantum we're looking from a quantum perspective at logical cubits things that you know appropriate error control around them that we can actually use them then can they be applied against the the trickiest algorithms that we have. So I think that's going to be the canary in in the co coal mine from my perspective when we start to see you know very low uh very small keys start to get cracked um you know using uh leveraging ECC cryptography that's when I'm going to start we kind of go from hey we have to plan for this like the alarm bells are ringing at that point. >> Okay.

>> When that happens guys I I I would I there's no way that >> Right. Right. But but you know another consideration if we're not just you know our dimension isn't time but it's more of like an event horizon you know a lot of the consideration is like the things that would break before Bitcoin is another thing that comes up like credit cards on Amazon right like there's some things that are kind of like maybe lowerhanging fruit that are even more basic whether it be RSA you know cryptography or what what have you before you know elliptic curves really get broken is there like maybe you can just talk to us about like what that lowerhanging fruit is again to kind of see the cracks in the foundation before we ultimately get to the big dog of

Bitcoin getting wiped. >> Yeah. Again, I think once the the labs start to again assuming they do, once the labs start to demonstrate, you know, that they can apply real world cryptography, uh they can breach real world cryptography, you're going to see the proofs of that pop up like crazy. I mean, look, think about it this way. like the first lab that can publish uh that can you know publish the specs of their quantum solution and demonstrate that they can crack even a even a even a legacy form of cryptography right think about the venture capital that's going to flow into that company like it's they're going to [laughter] be a billion dollars of inflows just like that right >> well it's going to be both right it's going to be both the quantum offensive and the defensive

>> right I mean they have a real incentive to to do that to to demonstrate that so I think we're going to see it I will say that last week we had some conversations even within Bitcoin about putting some uh as a potential interim step, you know, putting some um wallets out there that are known that are like, hey, if you can transact on this wallet and we can demonstrate that those wallets were created or or claimed where no one knows the private key and we can use a variety of different techniques to establish those wallets and if you are able to move assets on those wallets out of those wallets specifically, that would automatically trigger a protocol upgrade across the entire blockchain. It's like putting putting that trigger out there and saying, "Okay, labs, you want to demonstrate it. We know you all want to

be cool. Go trigger this." Now, that was just a conversation that we had. That's not a commitment by the Bitcoin community, nothing like that. But I want you all to know that these are the kinds of conversations that are happening, >> right? And then on the lens of um, you know, thinking about the value of something like Bitcoin with regards to its ability to kind of store away for many years and you know, you come back and your one Bitcoin is still one Bitcoin, right? may be wildly fluctuating in US dollar or euro or yen terms but it's one bitcoin is one bitcoin when you guys are you know having these internal discussions in the bitcoin security you know consortium you think about that value prop for investors and for holders is this this

idea that you can store it away for 20 years and you give it to your children and you don't have to like touch it you don't have to move it you don't have to do anything with it that's the beautiful thing about it right or prequant quantum a you know awareness. That was the beautiful thing about it. How do you kind of think about navigating that change of pace for holders, right? Because a lot of us are just trying to put that thing in a ledger and bury it somewhere, right? Yeah. >> Similar to how gold bugs do it. How do you think about that kind of investor change of heart or of mindset and how do you guys think about addressing that inside the consortium?

>> Look, that's that's the third rail, man. You just you just touched on it, right? What do we do with the Satoshi coins? What do we do with coins that that don't move to a postquantum wallet type once we once we make that once that's made available on on Bitcoin? Right? Here's what I'll say. Um that is not a decision that Coinbase is going to make. Um we are going to let the community make that decision. Um you know, I may have personal opinions on it, but from a Coinbase perspective, I think it's very important that we we don't try to impose our will in some capacity or challenge this the decentralization of the network or core devs. I I just think it's not our place to do that. uh we do custody a massive amount of Bitcoin. So yes, we have opinions. Yes, we want to we want

to fund these researchers. We want to make sure they're thinking about these things, but ultimately critical decisions about what does a postquantum future look like for Bitcoin? How do we handle wallets that that don't migrate or that are lost, abandoned, or intentionally buried in your backyard somewhere in a PVC pipe? You know, I think that's a question for the broader community that's not a coinbased question. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But you know you you you were also at Bank of New York Melon and like did security over there and now doing Coinbase you know security at Coinbase like that. How how similar or different is it you know protecting a institution like you know a bank or Coinbase? How different is that than protecting Bitcoin? Is it similar like you're

gathering the key stakeholders to get everyone in a room you come up with a plan? Take it quite a bit different when you're when you're comparing it to Bitcoin. >> Yeah. like maybe you can give us a sense of the process how it goes with Coinbase and then and then how it goes with Bitcoin. >> Yeah. Yeah. So look for Coinbase is is a centralized organization right and and Banking New York Melon centralized organization. Interestingly BMY Melon is one of the largest custodians of Tradfi assets if you will in the world. Coinbase is by a large margin the largest custodian of DeFi assets. So like I I've I kind of jumped in an interesting way uh to both areas. So, um, anyway, I I think that in terms of the difference inside Coinbase, we can arrive at at at conclusions pretty quickly. You know, ultimately, we we

talk to Brian, we put together a a decision document, and off we go. We get a decision. Um, in the Coinbase, in in the Bitcoin community, look, the power of the Bitcoin community is the decentralization. You can't have a Coinbase come in and say, "We're taking control. We're going to force our will." You know, Black Rockck or somebody else. That's just that's not going to work in the community, and it can't work. That's by design, not what Bitcoin will allow. We need to get the developers interested. We need to get everybody booked up, everybody thinking seriously about what the right solutions are. And ultimately, we've got to put it out there. The node operators need to make decisions. And then ultimately, we need to do some soft andor some hard forks.

But that is something that we will be supporting on the back end, not something that we will even attempt to direct. >> Yeah. >> Yep. >> Well, Jeeoff, man, you got your hands full. We appreciate you spending some time with us today. And as you say, like the timeline is a bit more of the unknown, but the plan is the important part. Understanding who you're addressing, whether it's the investor base, the company, the protocol, um institutional allocators, etc. Right? These are all kind of different facets to to one puzzle. Um but there there's a lot of independent variables here on different, you know, time horizons, different impact areas, different surface areas to consider. But it seems like there is one dependent variable

that the community and the Bitcoin security consortium is rallying around which is is coming right if you think about this as a science experiment the dependent variable here is quantum will be here at some point and perhaps it doesn't come but the assumption is there and that is the right assumption we think to kind of build a stronger more resilient future for DeFi for for Bitcoin and for the entire you know alternative financial system that we're building here and so props to you Jeff you're doing uh the Lord's work in this industry and we appreciate your time. >> Awesome. Thanks for having me, guys.

Take care. Bye-bye. >> Thanks, Jeff. >> See you. Thanks, Jeff. >> All righty. Rob, are you a are you a quantum believer? [laughter] >> I mean, at some point, right? And you got to only think that AI is going to accelerate things, but again, like impossible to know like when, you know, but it it does seem like it's not an if, it's a when. And so, we should at least have a plan. I think that's kind of the the place that makes sense right now is like put together a plan when you start to see some of the lowhanging fruit fall. >> Exactly.

>> The other thing that kind of just one of the more interesting things I took away from that interview is uh you know he mentioned that like when you're coming up with a plan obviously it's different Bitcoin decentralized network coinbase centralized institution. He said they put together a decision dock >> for Brian. >> Did you notice that? >> Yeah. just like a little bit a little bit of a interesting tidbit insight as far as you know the inner workings of an institution like Coinbase like you know they they say there's these like founder mode sort of organizational structures um and uh you know the these things and when you're operating at a high level like that it's like uh and there's different acronyms or different

processes that go about this but it's like hey you know if you can make the decision do it right you make the decision uh and if it, you know, really needs some higher level decision-making power, you know, you put together a document that can support that. Um, guys, we're going to bring up our next guest in just a minute. Um, you guys have seen him before, Corey Clipstein Kipston. Um, he's a founder and CEO of Swan, also a Bitcoin company. uh thinking about, you know, kind of maximizing Bitcoin value, custody, all these kinds of things. Um the only Bitcoin financial services firm. Uh and he also worked at Google, Microsoft, and

Mckenzie, and has more than 60 angel investments. Uh Cory's been on the show before. You guys know him well. He's a friend of the show. And uh he's going to give us our macro insights. maybe you guys saw, but I've also been sort of deep within the macro uh rabbit hole kind of just trying to educate myself, learn as much as I can about this. Um I think this is what's driving the market now. Uh you can point to technicals, you can point to levels and all this kind of stuff, but uh really it feels like when we get macro headlines, uh that is when the market moves.

And at this point it seems like macro kale winds is where uh is where the market is headed. Um and so what are we seeing out there? Well uh according to uh Corey uh his recent writing is more macro than price. Similarly I've uh I've also seen uh that in my own writing. one piece he argues that the Fed put was never under equity under uh equities pointing to 2022 when the S&P fell 25% and the Fed hiked seven times anyway.

Uh and so they're not trying to protect the equity market. Uh they are uh doing this to try to backs stop the debt system. US public debt crossed $40 trillion on August 18th very recently. gross interest expense already hit 1.1.7 trillion with two months left in the fiscal year which he says Cory says creates a structural bias towards reflation uh and financial repression rather than any conspiracy. In another he takes apart the roughly $2 trillion private credit market arguing it did not remove credit risk so much as move the m moment outsiders get to see it.

Uh loan amendments to quarterly management marks. is also uh on the record with a cycle call saying in mid to August that Bitcoin would bottom in October, possibly near 57K before recovering toward 130 ahead of 2028, having Bitcoin has since crossed 80K. And so we're going to hear from Corey and uh we're going to see whether or not he thinks the bottom is in now that we've kind of gotten this, you know, we didn't really get a Fed put, but we did get a Treasury twist. Uh, that has been Corey's take. I'll give you guys my macro assessment at this point as well.

I'm going to put on the glasses for this, but I was writing this yesterday because I've been on the record and I've said that the the money printer has been warming up. It's not on quite yet, but it is warming up. And the reason why is because right now Bessant has control of the narrative. And what he's doing uh is he is doing a Treasury twist. Those are his own words verbatim. He says that the Treasury is doing a twist. Uh it's a technical term. You might think, oh, the Treasury is dancing or something, but no, it's actually a technical term. The Treasury doing a twist means something real. The definition of a twist is to

twist duration out of the yield curve. twist it either up or down, meaning to flatten or steepen the yield curve. And so, uh, what they're doing right now is they're trying to twist the duration out of the bond market. Uh, and they are doing this by moving, uh, the long end, uh, issuance into short end bills. And so, uh, Bessant is buying up, um, the long-end treasuries. And he's doing this because there's no demand. He has to artificially support the demand for long-end treasuries. Uh he believes that there is more demand as well as he can stimulate more demand for short-term

bills uh in the 2-year. And so uh that is the Treasury twist. They haven't turned on the money printer quite yet, but we do believe that they are going to turn on the money printer very soon as a way to stimulate the short end of the curve uh and make sure that they have enough demand and buying power for short duration T bills uh so that they can continue to finance the government because politicians are not spending any less money. >> Stable coins, baby. Someone's got to do it. We got Corey Clips coming up. Rob, this guy is the biggest Bitcoin bull. We had him on at the bottom >> last time. The absolute pico bottom. I think he's in New York. We should have

got him in the in the tower. Can't win them all. It's a dark, foggy, stormy day out here. We're in the Empire State Building for you guys new on the channel. We're going to get Corey Corey Clipstein up on the show. Before we do, guys, if you're watching on YouTube, smash that like button, throw us a subscribe, turn notifications on. Easiest way to support our channel. This is Andy. You got Robbie here. We're live every single day from the financial capital world in the tokenization tower at the Nest here. Nest Army rollup army is live. We are in on the lows. Markets are doing okay. We're holding on strong and we will continue to. So guys, thank you for the support. We're going to get Corey. Cory is up on the screen now.

Corey, what's going on, man? Welcome back to the show. >> Good to see you guys. >> Are you in New York? Uh, I'm in London right now. Okay. Which is which is why you don't see my my lush dark wood background like usual. I >> Yeah, >> this is like the uh the spare bedroom closet. >> Hey, man. Whatever works. Whatever [laughter] works. >> Good to have you back, man. I mean, we we had you last time and it was just a peak bottom. >> I mean, we were we were talking about Sailor and Fudding Stretch and we were discussing that and we, you know, we were just kind of talking about Bitcoin at the lows and the October lows. Look, man. We're saying the bottom's in. We're saying we had an apathetic top. We got an apathetic bottom. It topped earlier than expected. Makes sense to bottom

earlier than expected. We think a lot of people are sidelines crypto natives. We think there's still a lot of high net worths and institutional allocators that are the next marginal buyers follow, you know, followed by the eventual retail bid. and we think we're in the early early stages of the kind of next bull cycle, which is kind of hard to tell between the end of the bear and the beginning of the bull, but we kind of feel like that's where we're at. So, if that's the whole podcast, then it was good to chat to you today, man. And uh >> great question. Appreciate it. Uh I loved your answer. That was fantastic. Uh look, man, I I see it the same way.

Okay, I mean these things are path dependent and given that we pumped up 23 24% in a week and now we're sitting kind of you know just below 80 and just below the 50we moving average and you know if we can punch through this at some point and we may be here a little while given the historical volumes that have traded there and given that you know 50week moving average is usually like the the roughest of the support and resistance lines out there. Uh but there's just nothing historically really above that. A little bit at 88, obviously the round number 100, maybe a little memory of like the first pump in 25 that hit 108 before down and then 126 all-time high.

Like there's just there's very little volume traded up here. You know, my my only commentary to add a little color to what you just said about the muted top and kind of this muted bottom. I think both are a symptom of the ETF launches in January 24. So, uh, I just told Laura, I'm sure I'm going to get a little [ __ ] after, uh, she posted it. Uh, I did Unchained yesterday with her and, you know, explained my real thesis. I I truly believe that the Bitcoin bull market in 25 was muted because of the ETFs.

>> And specifically, it's because something we wanted or that, you know, humans should should like having more access to things. But the truth is, it got so easy to buy price exposure to Bitcoin that so many more people who don't understand it, don't have a thesis, and you know, basically just have paper hands, >> uh, bought it. And it kind of reminds me of when all my New York and Chicago trader buddies bought Bitcoin in like 14, 15 because the chart looked good and they didn't know what it was. It's just a trade. And so once they got their 3x or their 4x, they just sold out of it. I think that's probably the cohort to look to as an analog for people institutional and retail that piled into ETFs didn't

understand what they own. It doesn't mean anything to them. They had a trade, it got above 100, it got to 120, whatever, and they're out, you know, because they got in, I think it was 37 maybe when the ETFs launched at the beginning of >> Yeah, that sounds about right. >> Like solid >> mid30s, low 30s. solid threebagger for people that that don't actually care about the asset. >> Um, Cory, the other thing that felt like it was missing in 2025 was the macro tailwind. And you've been writing a lot more about macro. I mean, we were in, you know, a low interest rate environment coming out of COVID, inflation skyrocketed and then we were in a high interest rate environment in 2024 2025.

>> Tell us like, you know, now is it is it the same? Is it different? Like what is your how are you seeing things in the macro landscape right now? >> So look, I am far from a macro guy and despite my finance MBA, I never worked in finance. Even though I worked on a lot of fig crap at McKenzie, it I was not on the banking side of anything. Uh so I would say I more report on macro and finance and the Fed and things like that and try to digest it and make it intelligible. But I I'm not a practitioner. That said, look, everybody's looking at crazy charts in the bond market every day. Something looks like it's breaking somewhere.

>> And I just had a nice little back and forth. Um, you know, cuz there I had a nice back and forth with Andy Constant. That's Stamped on earlier today. >> Great. >> And you know, it was really just I think he replied to my my gold post earlier. Again, I didn't mean to become a gold influencer, but it accidentally happened today. Um but uh you know his point was if our if on average our you know bills through bonds so like the one years through the 30 years go up a 100 basis points that'll add 300 billion in annual interest payments to uh you know basically to to what we pay each year.

and that that's actually not that big a deal given how long it'll take to actually get there >> to actually raise a full a full point from from here to there versus the size of the economy. And you know, he's not the only voice. There's a lot of a lot of Bitcoiners that have like decent econ backgrounds or at least are kind of like Daidax and have been studying for 10 years because they're Bitcoin nutballs and they just kind of see this this potential for the system to keep kicking the can down the road. Um, one more and and this is kind of contrarian to where I usually am, which is like Chicken Little, everything's falling down and you know, but but I I'll just go ahead and throw out one more interesting data point, which is um, okay, so yes, the federal debt is way up in the last 20 to

25 years, but actually household debt is way down as a percentage of total. And so the total debt is actually not up much at all. It's actually just the mix that has changed. So basically, a lot of a lot of households and individuals delevered uh you know during and after the global financial crisis and stayed there and paid off their bills and didn't take on a ton more debt. Uh but the government has stepped in uh abley [laughter] or with gusto, however you want to describe that and and sucked up all that all that um you know basically pumped that capital into the system. So >> yeah, >> it's interesting. You know, I don't if

we knew exactly where it was going, everybody would trade that right now. But I don't think that we do. I think people are kind of in tension and there are people that just have uh you know, even people with a really firm understanding of all the downsides of the way AI buildout is being financed. And you know, even the CEOs of these companies like Sam Altcoin, I mean, Altman, um, you know, you know, can't decide whether they're a product company or a platform company. And, you know, they he and Dario kind of sound like fat protocol guys from like 2017, [laughter] >> you know, like it's kind of sad the way they sound sometimes. Um, but we all use AI every day. We code everything with

AI. We design everything with AI. like it's like my thought partner on the scripts that I write and you know it's just uh >> it's awesome >> and it just reminds me of like I can't remember who who the guy was. I'll have to look up his name. Uh I I wrote him about him a few weeks ago, but it was, you know, it was like 1987 and they were like, uh, clearly computers in the information revolution are showing up everywhere except for in the productivity statistics. like we're just we're clearly not figuring out how to measure what's going on. But it's obvious that we're all much more productive and we can do more with fewer humans and and fewer uh you know like lower payrolls and things like that

or we're just using the same payroll and doing way more than we used to which is kind of what we're doing at Swan. >> Yeah. you know, kind of building on the the, you know, macro sort of like shifts that you're talking about and the conversation that you had back and forth with uh Damp Spring there in in the replies, like it it feels like, you know, we may start to see these things and the confluence kind of converge in like what we typically understand as a bull market. But, you know, given like this big print may not happen in the short term, it almost kind of, you know, cuz people are now say like there's calls for, you know, over 100K this year, but it it almost feels premature.

I mean, everyone was talking, you know, bottoms in October. Like, if we get 100K plus all-time highs this year, you know, and then everyone's got 2027 and 2028 is when the when the real bull market happens, it feels like everything's kind of moved up earlier. And so I kind of if I'm kind of putting these pieces together, what you're saying, what Andy's saying, what we've been hearing and thinking about, it kind of seems like it's maybe just not going to happen as it quickly as everyone's going to think, but we're still kind of early in the process and starting to lay the foundation for the bull market.

>> Lockout rally. G given that it's Wednesday, I've already had to answer this question on uh multiple shows this week and I'm at I'm at uh coin flip for 100k by year end. >> Okay. >> And I'm still in like the 10 to 15% range for uh you know 127k like new all-time high. I think it's very unlikely before the end of the year, but I think we have a really good shot at punching through 100k um by the end of the year. >> And then odds the bottoms in. Cory, are you like certain highly likely? >> Uh, yeah. Look, I don't I mean, [sighs] >> so I got to hand off this.

>> No, it's I'm I'm at somewhere between like 80 and 90% that we won't see a five handle again. >> Okay. Now, >> I think we got about a 50% chance of seeing a six handle again. >> Yeah, maybe [clears throat] 60%. [laughter] >> Right. That that makes sense. And I think kind of like if you're looking at forward-looking at least on the higher side, you know, even if we get a five handle or a six handle, but then you know, we do kind of rip on, you know, a 90 plus coin flip on that front too. I guess part of the thesis is that, you know, maybe the the money the real money printer doesn't get turned on in the next like weeks to months, but it actually takes a little bit longer, but the market is forward looking and so

Bitcoin and the market would sniff that out really before it happens, even if it's kind of positioned to happen in 2027 or later. >> So [sighs] gosh, I'm going to totally not answer your question because I was doing that thing my wife hates think about something else while you're talking. I'm thinking out loud. I did hear it. I did [laughter] hear it and we'll come back to it, but I but I feel like this is so important that I got to get it out. So, you know, I basically spent, you know, kind of a year uh let's call it like >> mid mid 25 through kind of like mid 26 where AI kind of sucked all the air out of the room and it was all anybody ever wanted to talk about. And you know, most of the crypto bitcoin type companies

were trying to find an AI angle, you know, like it's just it's just where the conversation was in the media. It's where the conversation was uh with bankers, whatever. It's like I could I could get somebody super interested in Swan if I led with how we're using AI and how AI doesn't disrupt us. >> Yeah. >> But if I just like went in and talked about our business, it's like >> snore, [laughter] you know? And that's over, which is really interesting. And I think the reason it's over is I think the thesis up through, you know, a few months ago >> was probably that uh AI doing really well was bad for Bitcoin because of kind of where the marginal investment capital

goes and that an AI crash would be bad for Bitcoin. And I think what has kind of changed and this is just sentiment. I don't really it's just narratives that are changing. I don't even think anything actually changed. But because price went up, now narrative follows price and we go looking for the narrative like bankers and journalists usually do. [laughter] >> So we're going and so so the narrative yeah it's the rotation thing but it's also I think that you know we're we're looking at AI being so important to the economy. So you know in June July when people realized that it was you know 40 to 60% of GDP in the US was hyperscalers basically and and AI uh now we believe

that the government and the politicians will support AI and there can't basically be a bust but it also doesn't really deserve some of its growth and it's starting to look a little inrony and a little global crossingy with the triangle financing etc. So, it's kind of like not necessarily the best place to put capital anymore, but we also aren't scared of it crashing because it's, you know, systemically important financially, but also from a security standpoint and visav China, etc. So, uh, it just seems like, you know, AI is in gridlock. Like I actually think that gridlock with the House in Democrat hands and the you know the Senate and Republican hands is going to be good for Bitcoin because just nobody can do

anything and they'll all just be busy with criminal hearings for all the you know kind of crime of the first two years >> and then uh you know similarly I think AI is just kind of in in gridlock and nobody no bears can't win and bulls can't win. I don't think you're going to see huge price rises the way there were in the hyperscalers and and a lot of the big, you know, kind of mag seven and whoever else has joined that in the next couple of years. But I also don't see them crashing to the point that there has to be some major intervention. Y >> and that that creates enough space in the room for Bitcoin to do its thing, which is just 8 billion people in their governments and institutions and pension funds waking up to the fact that we have better money than we've ever had before

as a race of humans on Earth and there's only 21 million of these things. >> Yeah, agreed. And just also, you know, starting to, you know, as the asset kind of has moved very quickly off the lows, you know, one more of these moves, even similar in the next couple weeks, that's going to that'll shake the room because then you start to look at uh the second half of the year performance for Bitcoin versus uh memory stocks or the MAG7 or the indexes and it starts to become a way different question of underperformance rather than oh wow are is Bitcoin going to outperform you know some of these things on the year right certainly in the second half and so

we're really just like one more strong move from Bitcoin away I think from reigniting a lot of that broader uh you know CNBC type of conversation you know we're kind of getting that I think you've been on CNBC you know in the past a couple times they probably call you up when you know things are exciting you'll probably start getting calls after one more you know one more week of a move similar up into the '9s. >> Yeah. Look, I mean, I I I love talking to those guys and uh it's more of the difference of like, are you doing the morning show? [laughter] >> You always do the lunch show and like the afternoon show, but it's like do the morning guys, watch you, on, you know, Bloomberg, Fox, and CNBC.

>> And yeah, that that usually comes when everybody's talking about it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, you just tell us when you're on the morning show next time. All right. I I'll make sure to trim some of my Zcash. I know how much you're a big fan of Zcash. >> I I don't even know what that is, man. [laughter] >> Well, it's the alternative to Bitcoin. It's the hedge. So, Bitcoin is the hedge to gold. Zcash is the hedge to Bitcoin. >> I thought gold was the hedge to Bitcoin >> and Bitcoin is the hedge to the entire fiat economy. [laughter] >> So, Corey, let's talk a bit, you know, more forward looking, right? So 80 90% chance you think bottoms in 50% 60% chance we res we revisit the six handle >> 5050 on whether or not we're over 100k

by the end of the year. >> I feel like the last bull market wasn't really even a bull market. I mean it was exciting. We went from you know the low 20s or whatever to the 120. So it was a real bull market. >> It was an 8x. It was you know it was 155 all the way up to 126. like that's not that bad. And >> you know, I think we we broke a really scary trend which was like geometrically diminishing returns. I don't know if you ever looked at this, but uh peak to trough in 13 was 550x. Peak to trough in 17 was 110. So exactly 80% less and and I'm sorry, trough to peak trough to

peak. >> And in 21 it was like 3150 to 69, which is 22x. So, you know, what would have sucked is if we did like a 4 and a halfx and, you know, at least we broke that and did an eight. >> You know, back on the cycles and like the four-year cycles. I mean, I think it's pretty clear looking back that uh minor selling after the having. They get off sides. They overinvest when they can raise money. They can only raise money during a bull market. They overinvest. It gets competitive and then they get underwater and they start selling. I mean, like seems very clear that actually probably did happen for a couple of cycles, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen forever. And the market is just so big now that minor selling is just like a minuscule percentage of the total supply available

at any time because it's not just the marginal supply from the issuance obviously that's for sale. It's, you know, a few million coins for the right price that can be pried out of, you know, either paper hands or even OG hands. Y >> um you know even believer hands if the price gets high enough they got to pay for college and buy a boat or whatever right. >> Um and so if everybody kind of sees that you have the incentive to frontr run it. >> Yeah. >> And I think you know we just keep on starting these bull markets earlier and earlier before the having which means that the bare markets can't last as long.

>> Right. >> You know that's kind of what I was getting at is >> um I'm sure you know Mike Alfred. I don't know if you have a relationship with him, but he was kind of claiming this was just more of a mo more of a midcycle pullback, right? His take was like like this is a 50% move off the highs. I'm calling 310,000 um as the next kind of like top range. This is a midcycle pullback. Just curious like what you thought about that. I I just I think at that point the word cycle has completely lost all meaning because you know in the Bitcoin terms it usually just means fouryear cycle and so I guess he's defining a new super cycle of some kind but that's not a term of art. So it's kind of >> you know it's not something that has a

common meaning. Um, but yeah, I mean I I think I think it's all a bull market again because we're it's just how long does it take everyone to adopt Bitcoin, which I do believe is rationally your judgment should be that that's inevitable. I >> mean, it's always a bull market if you all in full port at like $10 back in 2015, Corey. You know, that wasn't all of the investors in the world. >> You know, it was available. I was just too stupid to see it, bro. Just didn't get it, you know. I didn't click on that one.

[laughter] >> Well, I mean I think the elephant in the room was Sailor and he he ended up selling Bitcoin at the lows and he issued Micro Strategy stock to raise a bunch of cash. Then they started doing those stretch buybacks and so that risk I mean it feels like we're we're done hunting Sailor like it felt like the market was hunting Sailor and it feels like we're done hunting sailor like >> now they're hunting now they're hunting Bessant.

>> Yeah. What's your what's your take on kind of Sailor's position currently? >> Yeah. Look, I mean, it's a it's a multivariate machine over there with, you know, at least seven products right now between the stock and five preps and converts and they've got to kind of manage it and move it. And you know when you when you say something like hunt sailor, you know, I guess kind of the obvious analogy is if the market knows all of your positions like they clearly do with these, then you are at the risk of kind of your correlations going to one and not having a bid a fair market bid for anything that you sell or could sell, uh, which is kind of shades of LTCM or something like that. And I do think they faced a mini little version of that and they basically just got

rescued by Bitcoin and and that's smart that Bitcoin is the base for what they do. And they believe that they have the structure and the ability to weather the storm in bare markets and that even if there is a really nasty bare market in the future that it won't last long enough to actually take them under. And they're probably right. Where I think we'll probably head in the future is I think leverage Bitcoin equities, which is the correct term for strategy and strive if if you really are kind of a pure play, not MetaPlanet with ecosystem plays and investments in this and stable coin that and all this other stuff. Um, but the only two companies in the US, the most liquid market in the world that actually

function as leverage Bitcoin equities, which is just a little extra levered up exposure to Bitcoin price in a ticker in your brokerage account. It's just strategy and strive. And it does make sense that, you know, they if they operate well and they operate lean, they can deliver more Bitcoin per share over time in the long haul because they're levered up. What you're accepting there is a lot of extra risk on top of Bitcoin. You're accepting, you know, keyman risk and execution risk and regulatory risk and, you know, does everybody hunt them at the same time because it's just a nasty theme and, you know, there's there's a lot of risks there. And so what I expect, you know, I don't know about this cycle we'll see about sharp ratios, but I expect in the

long run that you will over the long haul see higher returns, but that actually LBEs will have a lower sharp ratio ratio. So you'll actually be paying an extra volatility like more than it's worth it for the risk over the long haul, but people will still buy it. They'll trade it. They'll have fun with it. They'll use it in pair trades with tokenized stocks and meme coins on Robin Hood, which I just learned about right before I joined you guys. Holy [laughter] >> Oh my god. I have really really fun uh dystopian short stories about where all this stuff is heading. But um >> how about this concept of um owning a memecoin that's paired to a tokenized

equity in an attempt to get a board seat on the equities cap table by pumping the memecoin to such sufficient size that the largest holders have in their when they swap the token theoretically, right? This is all kind of theoretical. um you can can get as much Nvidia or as much HIMS or as much tokenized version of these equities to be a board member of this company. How about that? >> Uh I would love to see that happen more than once because I'm pretty certain the regulations will come down if it ever even comes close. I don't think they'll even pull it off one time, at least what you just described.

>> But uh you know, look, bread and circuses, uh when the K-shaped economy sort of reaches its its final stages. You get socialism, you get populism, you get gambling. Everybody's obsessed with like, you know, food and sex and uh, you know, not much else. And it's pretty purile and juvenile. And I think that's kind of where we are. It's like, >> you know, this this is the you'll own nothing and be happy. It's like it it doesn't make sense to save if the money isn't worth anything. And, you know, saving an extra hundred bucks a week isn't going to help you take the vacation. you won't really miss it if you don't have the hundred bucks, but if you make 10 grand now you can go have some fun in Vegas or go out on the town

and buy some bottles or whatever. And so it's just kind of unfortunately that's what the US is starting to really look like which is you know I've I've witnessed that spending my summers in Turkey you know every every summer for the last 16 17 years with a Turkish wife like you know they used to buy Bitcoin and they used to stack flats you know they stack sats they also used to just you know everybody would save up and buy apartments and it's all just [ __ ] gambling now. Yeah, >> it's all gambling and it's, you know, I think the the Bitcoin LRA pair used to be number one on all the exchanges. It's probably like number eight now.

>> All the top pairs are just whatever shitcoin is pumping right now. Not even shitcoins you guys probably know the names of. It doesn't even matter. >> Yeah. >> No, you're right. It's very much, you know, own nothing and be happy and, you know, gamble and sex and food like like you were saying kind of captivates, you know, the attention complex. Um, >> like, you know, tell me, tell me the Met Gala is less fantastical than like, you know, the end of Hunger Games in the Capitol City. Like, the outfits are crazier in real life, aren't [laughter] they? >> And so, yeah, you're right. And so, the um >> I mean, I still go. It looks dope. I mean, whatever, but I don't.

>> No, man. You need some more coins to get in there, buddy. Maybe next year. >> It's very similar. You're right, though. And um and and I guess I you know you never want to go full macro but like what you're talking about has like you know it's been discussed you know K-shaped economy and like you know own nothing and be happy rise of socialism hyperinflation all that kind of stuff. It sounds very much like, you know, this the buttoned up, you know, suit way to say it is like however Ray Dallio talks about it and then you talk about it from like a Bitcoiner's perspective, but is that kind of like the the the the way to think about it is like I mean Ray Dallio puts that and again I haven't read his books and whatnot, but it's like the

debt spiral fall of civilization and like that's ultimately where this goes and that's bullish for Bitcoin. No, [laughter] like what's what's going to take the place? Like his thesis is always like, you know, it's usually kind of China, China, China because he made so much money over there and is like such great friends with the CCP and everything. So, uh I don't know. I'm like you. I don't read his stuff. I think that he reminds me of friends who like, you know, did really really well on like one trade and ended up with tons of money and then think they're right about everything forever.

>> Yeah. >> They start tweeting like, you know, you hit 100x on a memecoin and you start tweeting like uh Sunzu of Art of War. >> Yeah. So, it just none of it really ever strikes me as novel or particularly useful. Um Okay. And I'm sure he's a delightful guy, so it's no knock on him. I just don't give a [ __ ] Um but uh you know I think uh [sighs and gasps] again kind of I'm kind of shifting over much more to thinking that we'll be kicking this can down the road quite a bit. But again that's looking at the cards as they appear to be laid on the table right now. I think what we don't know is what changes in this country because kleptocracy

and corportocracy and oligarchy brings on populism and socialism which could just [ __ ] everything up. But it'll be a complete own goal because the stewards stole half the [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> You know, it's embarrassing. It's embarrassing. truly embarrassing what's happened over the last couple of years, you know, from the top on down. And, you know, it's it's not like there wasn't tons of grift and graft and politician land over the years, but we were upset about that, too. You know, I'm sure look, can you imagine being like like a Republican, a conservative Republican in like the 30s and 40s and

50s and watch like charting the rise of the Kennedys for 30 years until the dude dude's son becomes president and you're like that's a [ __ ] criminal bootleger and you got his son in the [ __ ] White House and like how just just I mean I don't I guess there'd be like you know Fox News radio or something like that back in the day being like subscribing to like angry telegraph senders or something like [laughter] that. But you just you just can imagine these crotchety dudes in the early 60s and then you know the pill comes out in 64 and the hippies are taking over and you know the Rolling Stones have hair all the way like all the way to their ears, bro. Like what is this? Those Beatles it's almost his hair is almost to his

eyebrows. This is ridiculous. And and a [ __ ] bootleger son is in the White House. So, you know, some of [snorts] this I think is just we only live one life and we haven't seen it before, >> right? >> So, you think they were having similar conversations back then like the world's coming to an end and we're going to debt spiral away%, dude. And then you have, you know, 20 years in Vietnam between the French and us and it's like, you know, everything just look race riots all over the place. I mean, it was >> way worse in the 60s and 70s than it is now. And I don't even think like the depths of what's coming in the backlash the back half of this term and even if you get a Democratic president uh elected in 28 and and that is like populist socialist and they start

funding all kind of things that you know I think are stupid you know and they and they'll do it because of the things they won't have any qualms about funding whatever giveaways and shutting down fossil fu fuels and doing green things and killing AI and doing all the things that they just on a whim can get people to support because they're going to point to this era and they're going to say, "Well, you did whatever you want and at least we're not stealing." >> Yeah. >> I mean, they are stealing. They're stealing the money from everybody and giving it to other people, right? At least they're not stealing it directly for themselves and their friends. And this is, you know, this is really interesting. Uh I I talked to Safety Amuse on his show maybe a month and a

half ago and and he basically said like he can't go to like a dinner party or you know cocktail hour or whatever and win an argument with a socialist anymore. >> That is fa fascinating because they make some good points. that one in particular morally what is going on on on the right and with this administration and the kleptocracy and all the cryptograph is like truly reprehensible and impossible to defend >> and so >> even though I hate socialism and communism and AOC is an idiot and all the things for real like I went to

University of Chicago for my MBA and you know was reading Milton Freeman in my 20s and [ __ ] like >> uh I still look at that and I'm like, you know, Trump stealing [ __ ] and giving it to his friends and lining his own pockets is worse than some dumb [ __ ] Like I at least I can understand where people are coming from. >> Yeah. Right. >> You know, and that's why I call it an own goal and that's why I say like, you know, we're doing it to ourselves and it's because there just somehow is no check on this kleptocracy corportocracy that we find ourselves in. And we will pay the price at some point >> just like people in the 20s with all that profleacy and the roaring 20s and

the jazz age and all that [ __ ] paid the price in the 30s and we got the New Deal and we got you know the explosion of tax and we got the 6102 with the confiscation of the gold and >> and we got Germany in World War II. >> Yeah. >> So watch yourself. >> Well send Bitcoin to a million, Cory. I mean [laughter] no matter what happens >> I want a million in purchasing power. I'm like not even interested in a million dollar nominal Bitcoin anymore. Like I need I need 2020 million dollar and 2020 purchasing power.

>> I hear you, man. Yeah, I hear you. I hear you. >> I want the basket of goods like preco >> index >> precoid >> precoid basket basket of goods million dollars. That's what I want. >> Yeah, that was 20 21% ago. >> Yeah, the official numbers. >> Yeah, right. Exactly. >> I like steak. >> Cory, thanks for your time, man. Appreciate you joining. We'll see you um we'll we'll get you on in Q4 again, please. And we will we'll uh >> we'll reconvene because I think we're Yeah, like I said, we're a couple weeks, one big Bitcoin move from a whole different kind of vibe, sentiment on Wall Street and on the, you know, classic folks. And so, >> I think, you know, we'll need some time to digest that move, I think.

>> Yeah. Um, but that'll be like where I think because right now it's like I mean I know we're in a bull market. Robbie knows we're in a bull market. You're bullish. We we didn't, you know, ditch this industry for AI. We're still holding long-term spot holdings. And so it's kind of like I think next time we talk it'll be more clear to the common public that we're in a cryptobull market again. >> We shall see. Look forward to it. >> Yeah, I I do love Bitcoin bull markets. >> Yeah, same. Thanks for guys. All right. Bye. Peace. >> [snorts] >> Yeah, I'm bullish, man. I mean, if the OG's are bullish, then it's hard to not be bullish. So, [snorts]

all right. Says if we punch through 82, he's coming back on with no shirt on. Ladies and gentlemen, that's a good scene [laughter] for you. >> [laughter] >> He said he's going to be back in the wooden the wooden background, no shirt on, with a Bitcoin hat of Michael Sailor on. >> I'm realizing now. I think that was a Turkish bath house. The wood the wooden [laughter] background. >> You'll do the show from the home.

Guys, we're staying bullish. Thanks, Corey and Rob. It's good to have you back. I know you're uh I know you were dealing with some stuff at home. Um but you didn't miss a whole lot. >> I think it's dumping rain outside in New York right now. Um but it's market looks good, man. You're right, man. We're just chopping. We're just chopping. I had a great pre-recorded podcast with Jake Travinsky of the Hyperloop Policy Center um earlier today and it's been a great show, guys. Debbie's in the chat if you're still watching. I think we're close to wrapping up here. Rob, anything you wanted to to throw my way?

>> I've been I've been going full macro. Um, >> okay. >> Which probably isn't healthy because it's not really my domain. I probably don't know what I'm doing or what I'm talking about, but this has been my area of research to try to understand, you know, because obviously there's so many factors that like, you know, intersect and ultimately create the market that we spend time and attention looking at every day and talking about. >> But, you know, so many of these are like the dog, >> you know, what is the dog wagging the tail, you know, like what what is the real driver? And it just seems like because we ended up, you know, at a place where, you know, Bessant makes one announcement and the macro headwind

shifts into a tailwind and that's why we explode off the lows. It feels like that's the dog, right? And then we might get, you know, a little bit more of a uh, you know, nuanced market as we expand. You know, we get into the these different metas and narratives and there's certainly some of those that exist as well, but it just broadly feels like macro is kind of like the in the driver's seat and Bessant kind of controls the narrative. And so I've just been trying to absorb and learn as much as possible. Um, I will say just something that Corey kind of tipped me off to uh in that last segment makes me a little bit less bullish, which is just this uh Andy Constan guy. I who's a massive hawk and just very against what

Bessant is doing. But, you know, as I research it a little bit more, I tend to think that it's because um it's because he's such of a hawk and Besson is doing like some pretty accommodative liquidity stuff. And so I think you know him and a lot of people honestly like if I have you know like what I would want them to do to actually fix the economy would be not like to print money you know like we've opted out and like have kind of you know we're we have like a seat on the escape hatch right but a lot of people don't and for the people that don't like what you should be doing is like cutting fiscal spending and like you know that whole Doge thing government efficiency thing >> that got killed

>> that would have been like the the thing to bring it back and like you know the whole austerity would have been the way to actually fix the root thing and I think that's maybe where some of the hawkishness comes from >> but anyway yeah this Andy Constantin guy he calls Bessant a larper uh calls him a cardinal he's not a messiah and uh describes his latest market comments as stupid um so he he's against that but but regardless I mean that's kind of where I've been spending time is like trying to understand what's happening with macro like what they're doing right now isn't money printer activity. So like when would they turn that on? Um and it kind of seems like it might be

taking a little bit longer than I had originally thought. And so I'm just I'm just trying to challenge my priors, you know, kind of reassess and making make sure that I I am, you know, open-minded to uh you know, potentially invalidating thesis. Uh if you know, those cases present themselves. I want to I want to take that in. But I'm still bullish. It's just maybe I'm you know, a little bit slower [snorts] bullish as I was. >> Okay? >> You know, like maybe not. >> I'm fast bullish. I think we go higher. I think lockout rally continues. And I've got the A Ghost Pass announcement winners here in the tower tokenization tower. We've got the A ghost pass early

access [cheering] new app winners Rugrat Muddy AOHiku Chun Mo 60 Serves Macro Mobass Eli Trey Guru OX77 the OG Roger Tennis DM me for the code right now. Let's get it team. Let's give a round of applause to everybody who participated in the challenge. [screaming] Let's get it. A app is coming, guys. Congrats. [cheering] Congrats. Congrats. Congrats. Congrats. Rob, while you're talking about macro, I'm talking about AI about to explode. Robin Hood chain is flying, flying, dude. I only put $500 into this. I'm up over 100%. There are people up millions putting a Zin in. I

bought Moo. I bought the Micron Moo coin yesterday. I bought Boner for him and I bought more of Eric's coin or actually I didn't buy more. I just I'm still holding. Crazy thesis here. AI is going to keep ripping. AI is the fartcoin of this meta. AI is the leader of this meta. It is by far the leader. Then you've got Moo the Micron at 22 mil and Boner at 60 mil. Those are those are the two right behind it. And then there's a ton others. Those are the three that I'm betting on. I think this meta gets to billions. I should have bought more AI.

It was obvious. My buddy told me about a 50 mil. It was obvious. It was obvious. This thing's gonna trade over a billion if not multiple billions. Dog with hat hit three bill. This is a way better meme and meme stock meta than dog with hat. This thing could hit five billion. Like I'm saying that I'm not buying more. I've limited myself to $10,000 for my FOMO account. If I can't make it with 10K, then I'm never going to make it. But I'm also not the best FOMO investor because what I should do is put all that 10 into something. But I haven't. I've diversified it like an absolute loser.

AI is going to keep ripping. Robin Hood Robin Hood chain is going nuts. It's going bananas. So, here's uh here's Eric's portfolio. So, once again, he's got a ridiculous sized boner uh position. [laughter] And I mean, it's the top four. Look, so here's his thesis. >> The top four most hell coins on FOMO, AI, pawns, cash, and boner. I wonder what happens next, guys. I think this guy's dialed. I think these four are going to keep ripping.

I think these four are going to keep ripping and I've got some others. So, if you go tokens most held, Micro Doge came out of nowhere. I don't know. I think that sounds kind of scammy, but these are the top ones. I'm in MOO. I'm in MOO. Okay. I top blasted it. I don't really care. I'm in MOO with my buy. >> You can't top blast it. Everything is green. There's You just [laughter] show a chart. Every candle was green and there was no top blasts. It's It's impossible to top last if you're uh at all.

>> I'm up on Moo. I'm up on Moo, guys. 1%. >> And this thing is paired with Micron. [laughter] I'm telling you guys, I'm in Moo. I don't do this often. Also, this number is inflated because all those hidden tokens I was showing you guys at the beginning of the show. I think Moo is going to fly. I'm down bad on boner. I'm up big on AI. And then Lil Oon is my sleeper. If you guys look at what Eric said, he is the one who CTOed it. So he CTOed it. He said, "I had a few questions about Lil Ooni. Yes, I did CTO the project over a month ago. I think it has top tier lore. Unis swap mascot hit

on their 41 404 page for years named Lil Ooni. Community is great. Fun things planned for all that aside, I think it will win on lore and memes alone. Guys, simple thesis here. Eric is gonna be one of the the top leaderboard winners on FOMO. Like, it's guaranteed. Like, I mean, this guy is a OG Ethereum developer. He's growing. His his his equity curve on FOMO is ridiculous. Higher than my net worth in like a month. And this guy is about to cook hard.

>> Pull up uh we got nudes paired with Snapchat and it's $10 million market cap. Can you pull this up on the screen, please? >> But this is what I mean, though. I don't know, man. Some of these are just Oh my gosh, it's flying. All right, I'm in. [laughter] 100 bucks. Unverified contract. Whatever. Smash it. Let's get it. Dude, I'm telling you, this meta is going to explode. A If AI keeps going up, everything's going to rip.

>> And so AI is paired to Nvidia, right? >> AI is Bitcoin. AI is the Bitcoin of this meta. Look at those buys, bro. Tell me I'm not a savage. I should have full ported, huh? Like, dude, those are some decent buys. Like, obviously nothing crazy, but if this thing goes to if this thing goes up a lot, could, you know, I still I think this could 10x from here. So, I'm in. I'm in. And what's cool about FOMO is I got a whale on here. So >> check this out.

>> Um I don't know why I did that. It's not like I haven't shown you guys already. Earnings, dude. So I got Bogfather on here and he's just slanging. He's slanging a million dollars in Cash Cat. So I got a referral guy just nice nice. >> So I'm making like a hundred bucks a day right now from his trades. Wow. >> Look, every time he trades Cash Cat, I get paid. Like, look, look, look, look. Earnings referral. See, I got $54 today, 100 bucks yesterday, 300 the day before.

So, thank you to Jay Quatronica for the uh I'll follow you back there, buddy. Thank you for using my ref link. Appreciate that. He's up 140 grand in 24 hours. So, yeah. Enzo Fernandez signed to Manchester City for $150 million. Bet he's bet he's not on FOMO yet. He's gonna buy AI hire. >> Andy is itching. Man is cracked out on hood chain. >> Yo, I'm literally only had I literally only had this today. Yerba Mate, 150 mgs of caffeine. Unreal. Lol. Great alpha man is cracked out on hood chain. I'm in FOMO. Get him on the show. Nude swap is 10 million mark cap. Wake up. I just

bought it, buddy. Is is AR chain why unis swap is moving up? Yeah, Rob, did you see that? UniS swap's ripping. >> Oh, really? Yeah. Ripping. I mean, hard because of Robin Hood chain. Yeah. I mean, the last three weeks for sure. I mean, you zoom out, it's still a different chart, but yeah, had quite the run there because of Robin Hood chain. I agree. >> Arbitrum's up 20% today. ARB is also getting some love finally for this. Oh yeah, big move there off the lows.

Huge pop, 50% pop in a matter of days, three days. >> I mean, UniS swap looks good this week while everything else was chopping. But yeah, yeah. Yeah, >> Arbitum's got a ways to go, but if it flips 15 cents on the back of Robin [snorts] Hood chain exploding, it could be bottomed. >> Um, here's another one. Fammy on NASDAQ is mooning from onchain trading through the Jin Kuan money mushroom meme. Here goes Moo, guys. Here goes Moo.

Boom. Here it goes. I'm about to start printing on Moo. I'm telling you guys. I'm telling you guys, I top blasted. Literally Pico top blasted. But I don't even care. It's 27 million market cap. If AI does what I think it's going to do, then this thing could 20x. >> I've got I've got something here too. like some act you know like you know what we had talked about the price dislocations here. >> Yes. >> So you know on something like him or this movie coin chain you know AMC like those are relatively large you know heavily traded uh tickers but this fammy thing is like a total like penny stock but it has a NASDAQ listing. And so it turns out that, you know, with the

bigger names that have a lot of volume on the NASDAQ or the New York Stock Exchange, that's where price discovery happens. You end up getting armed, right? And so the m, you know, the price is going to crash after it gets bid up on chain. But this fammy thing is a penny stock. It received a NASDAQ warning after trading below a dollar for 30 consecutive SE sessions, right? So, it's going to get de delisted from the NASDAQ but it is now up 71%.

>> What's the ticker? Fami. >> Well, the equity is FAMI. The t the memecoin that's paired to it is Jin Kuan or Jin Chen. >> Look at it ripping. This is this Jin Q Q or No, this is Fam. Yes. And so this is so that run up was because the price discovery was happening onchain, right? It was actually more liquid and more volume onchain. And so it was the thing the offchain one was the one that got armed up. >> The onchain version of it is the one where price discovery happened because there was more liquidity, more volume there. That got treated meme as the real price. The meme that's paired to Fami is

Jinch Chant. J I N Q. >> Jin Kuan. Jin Kin. >> Yeah. >> Wow. Took a big nuke. And then now it's bouncing a bit. >> The actual NASDAQ stock is now up 71% today on $139 million of volume. Roughly 16 times its daily average of volume. Right. Onchain. popping real stocks by trading by launching meme coins paired to them. >> Yes. Because the onchain tokenized version that's catching this this bid from the meme pair is getting so much volume and liquidity that it is more volume and more liquid than the trading pair on NASDAQ.

>> Wow. >> And so price discovery, the real price is the one that's most liquid and the onchain tokenized version is more liquid. So that's >> Yo, I missed the memory trade, but I'm not missing memory calm. >> Ladies and gentlemen, I missed the memory trade, but I'm not missing the biggest trade attached to it. >> Micron go moo. >> People are telling us about netnet. >> Yeah, I know. I saw netnet. They just have no liquidity on the actual pair. But yeah, it has been ripping net tokens.

net net. Here it is. Yeah, it's like an ohm fork. >> Okay. And so what caused that nuke on this Jin Chang thing? >> Yeah. Is the same thing that caused the the the arbitrage back on the price dislocation. And so now market makers are minting the stock onchain and dumping it into the meme pair to equalize the stock price. So that is going to nuke the onchain equity and then but it is going to buy well I guess it'll temporarily buy the memecoin and then it'll it'll kind of flow out into stables or whatever they want to

>> this is wild. Yeah. I'm just trying to reason through this. So I guess this the arb is >> there's no reasoning dude. It's meme coins. There's no reasoning here. Just ape some [ __ ] >> Look at this. >> This thing is going to explode, guys. >> This farmy thing is >> Guys, do not This is not a shill. This is not a financial advice. This is all public. All my transactions here are public. Clearly, I top blasted higher, but dude, Eric is on this and he is going to have the most generational run on FO. I mean, he's having the most generational run. I mean, let's look at

the leaderboard. Like, if you go to the leaderboard here, um, how do you see? Okay, here we go. I'm ranked 5,000th. But if you go to all, Dude, Eric's up here. Where's [snorts] he at? There he is. Number 15. Bro, my prediction is Eric goes on a Jenny run and he's going to be talking about um, Lil Oonie. And yeah, I mean, that's why I mean, it's not, unfortunately, it's not one of these stock pairs. So, I kind of feel like I'm wasting my energy being a part of it, but I don't know. I don't know.

>> The stock thing is fascinating because these are real companies, dude. And like they're like actually building products. Like him, you know, has a bottom line. Like they have investors. They're building products. Whatever you want to think about the products is whatever. But like, and then they're going to get a word from someone that's going to be like, "Do you know what's happening to your stock?" And then they're going to have to like realize something about it. They're going to have to like give it some sort of like attention and either debunk it or or give it validity. But but these things are I mean there you know the the issue before was that um you know all the volume in these stock pairs happened during offmarket hours

and so there was really no surprise as to why there was more liquid uh pairs happening onchain. I mean, dude, this is nuts. >> But now it's happening during market hours. >> There's something for every stock. It's crazy. >> I I would I I'd love just a basket of these. >> That's why I just bought all these. Moo, boner, AI. And I didn't size AI, right? So, I ended up just rage sizing MO. >> I just picked up Nes. I don't know what Bomba I'm just going to hide that thing.

So, >> anyhow, that's it. Robin Hood Mania is ridiculous. So, yeah, we're going to keep monitoring it. On the bigger side, Bitcoin chopping chop and chop. Um, like Cory was saying, it's going to take a while to pass this level. Maybe not too worried. What's getting wrecked is pump. It's at a logical bounce spot here, 20-day SMA, but it's got a it's got it. I mean, what's happening to Pump is this token called Pawns. >> Oh, yeah. >> Pawns is just eating Pump's lunch right now.

>> Oh, yeah. They got to do something about it quick, man. >> Yeah. So, they're getting they're getting I mean, they have a generational run right here, >> but they're getting they're getting eaten up by ponds right now, a bit. >> Oh, yeah. >> Zack, I mean, same thing as Bitcoin. I mean, it's just could take a little while, but we're way above this level, right? So, at this point, dips are for buying. I don't even know if we get I mean we might go under 800 significantly but we'll see per I'm still holding. I mean this to me is just a retest of the alltime high levels. To me it looks good. I think hype is going to do well.

Um Bitcoin ETH same thing and they got a bunch of other things. Zama's had a nice day today. So yeah, I remain bullish. Um, I'm just like infatuated with putting a tiny bit of cash into uh FOMO because like I just I mean not even for the yes for the gambling and for the itch but just to like be a part of it like this is a new thing so I want to be a part of it. I want to and best way to learn and best way to understand what's happening is to put some money in it. Learn, lose, win, whatever. But yeah, so so yeah, this is what I got and we'll see what happens.

>> Yeah. So >> we're gonna keep uh we're gonna keep tracking it. That's for sure. So guys, >> Netnet world order. >> Yeah, people are big on this Netnet thing. >> Yeah, it's growing like an OM style community, which is funny [laughter] indeed. It is. All right, guys. Great show. Uh, bro, when do you think the market will start picking up again? Do you think we'll remain in a bare market until the war is over?

>> Were you Where have you been? >> Let me flip over to the screen here. Rob, what's your answer to that? We're in a bull market. The dips are for buying. Maybe we retest something with a six handle on Bitcoin. >> Yeah. >> But >> 50% chance from Corey. >> Yeah, I um I could see it. I don't think we get too low into the sixes, 60s. >> Back to Rob and I. >> I think maybe we get, you know, 70K. We're going to get a dip. That's for sure. I think that that's what's coming. I'm I'm gonna flip bias, Andy. Actually, I'm going to flip.

>> I uh predicted this week was going to be chop. think we got that right. And I think I'm gonna change my mind about next week. I said, "Guys, what are we doing in the kitchen? Why do we have why do we have the down and we're in these what are we doing? >> What are we doing? >> What's your bias flip? >> I you know, I had said chop week. That turned out to be correct. I was bullish going into next week, but uh I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if we're going to get that next week." Oh, I'm bullish.

>> Yeah. [snorts] >> Oh, I'm staying bullish. I don't know. >> Like I said, I mean, the the thesis was at least on a macro standpoint that we were going to kind of bullish into these Treasury buybacks. >> I don't know. Okay. All right, guys. Thank you for being here. W's in the chat. W's in the chat. If you are watching, W's in the chat across the board. We appreciate y'all being here. Throw us a like on X on YouTube. Subscribe, follow, etc. We appreciate every single one of you guys making the show possible. You know, you know where to find us. Live from the financial capital world, the tokenization tower, the Nest here in New York City and down in South Florida. We're on top of it.

We're bullish. Red or green, up or down, good day, bad day, we'll be here. We'll be doing the show. We'll be having fun. Thank you for being a part of the show today. Absolute banger. Great guest. Great guest. Thank you guys. And we're going to sign off. >> [music]