Tom Lee Buys More ETH! HYPE Hits The Hundy Roll! Binance Apes 100M in CRCL. Anchorage Joins

Transcript

[music] Heat. Heat. [music] >> [music] >> 17 floor. [music] [music] We'll see you around the timeline.

Feels good to be back. I think The Rollup is one of the [music] most premier media brands in crypto and Andy and Robbie are great experts at everything they talk about and [music] it's my favorite podcast. >> Adding it to my library every week. >> Potentially multi-chain deployments. >> We are at Dev Connect [music] day one here. I'll be from base. [music] [music] [music]

>> [music] [music] >> Heat. Heat. [music] JP Morgan, Black Rock, DTCC, Fidelity, the entire thing was just institutions.

It's just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. I'm bullish. >> He said it. He finally said it. So bull. It is bullish. I'm bullish. We're bullish. [music] >> [music] [music]

[music] >> Heat. Heat. [music] Heat. Heat. [music] [music] Heat. Heat. [music] [music] >> [music]

[music] >> A roll up is headed to the top. If we're not already at the top, we're going to the top. >> Roll up is my favorite. People >> from all walks of life, all over the world, all over this industry come together [music] for the rollup. >> [music] [music] >> Heat. Hey. Hey. Hey.

>> [music] >> Zoom out. [music] The institutions aren't coming. They're simply here. It's the golden age of crypto, guys. Get right. Let's go. [music] >> Welcome to the nest. See you on the show. >> We're live from the rollup headquarters south, September 22nd. What is good? We are pushing highs. Absolutely pushing highs. Give me some air horns. Give me some air horns, guys. You know what time it is, the rollup headquarters live in South Florida. What is good? We are pushing, pushing, pushing for the Hyundai roll. This is the roll up. And we've got another tremendous show for

you guys today. Will we get another call in from my co-host? Is he sipping another panina colada? Are we going to explode higher through 100K and through $100 for Hyperlid? Are we going to push $2,000 Zcash near on the way to $5? Zama cruising. I found a low market cap privacy enabled runner of potential sorts. We'll talk about that and more. Guys, welcome to the rollup. It's an absolute pleasure to be hosting another bull market segment for you guys here today. As you can tell by my hat, I am euphoric, but I'm also starting to feel a little bit of disbelief. Are we going to trim or are we going to absolutely push through and

rip face? That is the question here today. And as always, another fantastic show for you guys today. As you can tell, I'm in the roll of headquarters south in sunny South Florida, as is my co-host. But as always, the Plume tokenization Tower, the Nest in the Empire State Building at the absolute center of Northern Finance is sponsored by Plume. We are big big fans and friends of the Plume team and we are very grateful for their support. So, as always, big shout out to Plume and we couldn't do it without each and every one of you guys watching behind the scenes. If you're in the chat, if your name is Freedom Guy, if your name is anyone who we've been calling out over the last few months, I'm sure you're on this train with us

and we appreciate you and we support you and we appreciate any likes, reposts, subscriptions, and follows that you have to give us, guys. fantastic show. Had a great pre-recorded segment. That one's under embargo for the next few weeks, but we are going to keep this show rolling. We've got stabled up a little bit later today, and we've got plenty of headlines to get through. Before we get into our tremendous show for you guys today, there is a phenomenon sweeping across the onchain world and it is tokenized equities. And I'm going to tell you about our tokenized equities partner.

Our tokenized equities partner is Dinari and we are big big fans of dinari. The way that they've gone about tokenization they have been able to create this hybrid model between the SPV rappers and between the native tokenization that has allowed them to tokenize the entire S&P 500. Every single 500 company in the S&P they've tokenized. They are enabling more liquidity on chain for each of these assets. And there's a metric that you're going to want to keep your eyes on and it is the percent of trading volume in these tickers that is happening offchain relative to what is happening onchain. Now I saw right now about 2% of global volume for some

choice tickers are happening onchain. We anticipate that the market share of trading volume for onchain tokenized stocks is going to perpetually increase as we tokenize more and the adoption of these tokenized equities takes fold. So we are very very excited about dinari and then of course as I mentioned today's topics incredible state of affairs out there in the onchain world. Uh we are seeing fantastic things happening all across the onchain economy and we are having fun. We are having fun again and we are very very appreciative and glad to be having fun again.

Markets and weather. We've got a bunch of headlines that we want to go through a bunch of tweets and we're going to have Anchorage Digital CEO. He is one of the companies that is leading the charge in the tokenization super cycle which results in institutional FOMO for not only the onchain primitives and protocols but also quote unquote your bags. So you're going to want to make sure that you catch that one. Uh let's do a quick flip over to weather. We already talked about our tokenized equity partner dinari. So let's talk about the weather. It's 88 degrees in Florida. I am coming at you from sunny South Florida as is my co-host. And so for another breaking news local

commentator on the bull market, State of Euphoria, we've got my co-host Andy. [applause] It's 88 degrees. It's about to start pouring. Usual Florida hurricane season activities. Let's keep this show rolling, Rob. Good to be back. >> Good to be staying another night in the Ritz. Um, and >> I heard you established some sort of permanent residency in the Ritz Carlton.

Is that true? [laughter] >> Yo yo yo yo yo. That's That was a good one. That was a good one. That was a good one. I mean, I don't know. These people definitely know uh they definitely these people definitely know my name. Tell you that much. But um man uh Hyperliquid is about to hit the Hundy roll. We're about to get the Hundy roll on hype. Um so for those of you guys who don't know what the if you guys can just throw up to me and Rob, we'll we'll come back to the markets if that screen's down a bit. Um the Hundy roll is what happens when a asset is trading at $97 or $98.

And what happens is there's a psychological phenomenon where uh effectively the asset is bound to blow past $100 straight to about $105 to $107 range. Um this is known as the Hundy roll. Um, and Flood tweeted this in 2018. Uh, there's an old school strategy, not as old as the marching grail gentleman tactic, but it's in IBC lore. I'm long a stock based purely on the theory that human beings are dumb enough to shoot for round numbers.

Theund the Hundy roll is a trade that is executed at around 97 to $98 per share in the hopes that it'll immediately shoot to 106. You see, once a stock breaks the magical plane of 100, it has no choice but to jimmy its way up to 106. That's the way the world works. Do not argue with physics. Rob Hyperliquid is currently trading at 96.47. We are about 50 cents to a$150 away from it being like premiumly in the Hyundai roll.

Perfectly set up for the Hundy roll. I don't know if it happens today, but I would say in the next 48 hours, Hyperlid's going to show the world what the Hundy roll is. We already flipped the NASDAQ. What's next? Who's next? Interactive Brokers at 150 build. We're coming for them next. [snorts] >> Um, I hear that the Hundy Roll has a 100% hit rate. Is this true? >> I don't know, man. I don't know about that. But I do know that the Hundy roll works and I'm I'm I'm playing it. I'm playing it. How about the rest of the market erup? Bitcoin, Eana, Frame, Nearcid, Zcash, a Hyper.

Um, some big moves across the board. >> Huge moves across the board. I mean, it's phenomenal. We're having fun. Animal Spirits are back. We've got Hundy Rolls in our sites. And I think there's a broader broader, if you want to extrapolate the Hundy roll thesis a little bit. Oh, market just >> we just market went up so much. Little circ circuit breakers, >> guys. We are pumping too hard. >> Circuit breakers on the market. >> Guys, quick note. If if you're watching and you won the giveaway, we are still in the process of sending those USC's out. Apologize if it's been a while. Uh I've obviously been uh not on the desk and uh I don't even know. I I got to get you know, we're going to get our team or

our Grockbot on that, but apologies on that. We'll we'll get that over to you guys ASAP. Um, so if we extrapolate the hyunds a little bit, >> sure. >> Um, remember it's not just hundies, it's also round numbers in general. And when Flood first put out that tweet, it was around Bitcoin going to 10K. It was at about 9600, right? There was big psychological number of $10,000 Bitcoin. And obviously, you know, there was the Jimmy your way up to your 105, 106, 107. I see I see psychological numbers across the board, right? So, I see Zcash was able to shoot at the psychological 1500. That was a big move. Now, we're jimmying our

way up to 15,61 17. I see uh ETH with 3K in >> offer something there. I think I think what Bitcoin Jack said was probably right about Zcash this month that I don't know if Zcash breaks 2K this month for the same logic that you're explaining but in the inverse like I think 2K is like a bit of a 2K would put it in sights to flip ETH in terms of price >> and I think that's going to be a hard psychological one to break >> because 1K was already like kind of hard to break and then we flew. I think Jack Bitcoin Jack's gonna be spot on that we're going to pitterpatter really close to it, but we're not going to get to it.

>> Okay. And so you're calling a local top on Zcash ETH? >> I'm just calling a local I'm I'm thinking that in this in the last kind of leg here of this big move that we've had before we have to chill out across the board for a couple weeks. >> Why? >> I don't think Zack breaks. >> Why do we have to Why do we have to chill out for a few? I just told you yesterday dude. >> Did you? >> Yeah. The We're We're going to get late longs piling in people that were sidelined that don't have as much size as as the whales, and the whales are going to [ __ ] with them a little bit.

>> The whales are going to troll them. The whales are going to take their money and then we're going to go higher. >> What if the whales say, "Fuck you higher." >> Well, the whales can say that, but it's in the whales best interest and the market's best interest to just take a chiller for a second. >> We shall see. Also, we've got uh outperformance, right? And I was talking with someone behind the scenes a little bit here, someone in the live room, not in the live room with us now, but who was in the live room just a few minutes ago helping us get set up behind, someone, you know, near and dear, close to our heart, Mr. Hefe. And, you know, we were talking about, you know, kind of the the way in which to play the market, you know, choose your game, right?

Because the game you decide to play is just as important as winning your game. You got to make sure that the game that you're you're choosing to play is the one that you plan on winning. And so obviously there's let's just say there's two ways, right? To be a bit reductive, there's a million ways to play, but let's just say that there's two ways. On one hand, you could be an investor or you could be a trader, right? And so the theory was that, hey, it feels like we're reaching some sort of local top, whether it be that the whales are [ __ ] with us or we've gone up a lot or we've got some midterms or AI IPOs for whatever catalyst, right? There's a fall equinox in the air, right? Whatever it is.

And so does it make sense? Okay. So, so that so that's on one hand, right? Before we pose the question, on the other hand, it feels like Bitcoin's going to 250. It feels like Bitcoin is not even at all-time highs, right? It feels like we're going to break all-time highs. Maybe it's in the next year. Who knows? But Bitcoin is going to break 100, then it's going to break all-time highs, and then it's going to get maybe it's 150, maybe it's 200, maybe it's 250, maybe it's 500k, we don't know. But if that happens, and when that happens, Zcash is 2, three, four, five, who knows, right? Hyperlid is 1, 150, 200, who knows? And so why would you sell, right, the fall equinox local top if Bitcoin's going to 250 and therefore Zcash is going to two or three or four

or five, right? You wouldn't if you were an investor. If you were a trader, right, you would try to time the time the market. You would try to sell the local tops, buy the local bottoms, and you would kind of go on this journey and time the market as we go higher. And Andy, you're on mute, but I think that is the question that's facing a lot of our listeners. >> Agree. Totally agree. And I think there's like so let me just be clear uh Ze spot is not getting touched. Bitcoin spot not getting touched. Uh honestly the hype spot probably not getting touched. The purr though that is already a levered position on hype is definitely more of a tradable asset than the spot bags. So that's it. I mean I totally

hear you though. And then pers if you guys are doing any perp trading which whatever enjoy it if if you are be you know be careful for me my per accounts are going to be just delevered uh this week I mean I've already started um but just like taking them down a bit like takes some down however Rob the the question that I'm kind of battling with right now is I've got these per positions on you know Zack and hype and a little bit of near um and some other winners and I got them at really low leverage at like the lows. So my liquidation is like so far down that

it's literally untouchable pretty much >> almost spot. >> It's basically spot and so I don't think I'm going to touch those either because I think those I can ride for the majority of the bull cycle. >> I feel I I'm in I'm in a similar position. I feel the same way. And I said, look, like I may trim for the psychological reason of it's up so much. But I think also let's just I want to double click on something. Right. Because you said that you know a lot of the things are staying staying put, right? Spot this, spot that, right? The things that you have in the vault and you know the things that are so low leverage and have such a good entry that it's basically spot. No need to touch that either.

>> Sure. The things that I hear you delevering or d-risking or trimming are the extraordinarily reflexive assets, right? Because PER, let's just take PER for example, since you mentioned it, PER is a reflexive bet on or a beta on Hyperlid. And so I'd imagine just to put this in very concrete terms, if we get some sort of third leg, right, some sort of Hundy roll through Hyperlid, that reflexivity sends per, for instance, an order of magnitude higher than Hyperlid spot.

>> Yeah. So, let's just run some numbers, right? You're a numbers guy. You're a math major. You're a gigabbring. We're at 965. Let's say we get the Hundy roll to 106, but I think we roll all the way to like 113 or 115. That's a 17% move here. That That would be the explosion. That would be the, you know, I'd be like, "Holy shit." All right, here we are. We're in a new ball game. 17% move on hype. I think Perk could do a 30 to 30 to 40% move in that same time period. >> And so I'm just like And so I'm like, "All right, the MNAV is now 1.5." Like the MNAV right now I believe is 1.3 maybe a little bit less let me tell you right now >> and while while you pull that up I I think what you're saying is like what

comes after the Hund roll right which is typically some sort of pullback pullback yeah we're going to retest the 100 level or at least chop sideways >> and the assets that are beta to the to the underlying assets are extra reflexive on the on the pullbacks. >> Exactly. So, I just don't want to have to freaking learn that lesson twice. I already learned it once on per. I'm not learning it again. But I'm down to ride. Like, I'm gonna ride it. I'm gonna trim 20%. You know what I mean? >> I'm not trimming. I'm going to trim 20 because I still think this thing trades to 40 bucks >> because I I think hype goes to 250.

>> So, do you re-enter? >> No. No, no, no. SpaceX, >> you never reenter. >> You set bids bids maybe if you want on other assets or the same asset, but I'm just going to move asset classes on this on this one. Okay. So, you're playing the rotation >> kind of. I'm just playing the Holy crap. >> Playing the Holy crap. What a strategy. We'll see if it works out for him. Guys, we've got a tremendous rest of our show. We've got our We've got [laughter] We've got our first guest coming out here in seven minutes. We're going to go through. We don't have many uh much time for headlines or tweets, but >> so funny.

>> Let's go ahead. Let's pull this up. This first one is what exactly what we've been talking about. >> Tom Lee, >> and this is true across the board. Tom Lee is an absolute genius. I mean, >> Tom Lee. >> I I think you know Tom skipped this one. We just talked about this one. >> We just talked about Hundy Rolls uh quite a bit. Let's get the next one ready to go. But I mean, Andy, why don't you tell us about Tom Lee? >> I mean, what he bought like another He bought a ton more ETH over the last couple of days. Like a ton more. Um, Bitmine's ripping. I ran in the chat just said BMR. I mean, I just hope Tom invites me on his yacht, you know? Do you think we'll get the yacht invite?

Um, I think Tom is going to be buying another yacht with all of his ETH profits. And that's the yacht I don't think we're going to get invited to like like the OG OG yacht until maybe like the 2032 cycle. But I do think that uh on maybe the beta yacht, we're going to get the invite and we're going to be the extra reflexive yacht where all the crypto dgens hang out. And then the next cycle when these things are really integrated and we really see the convergence, that's when we're going to, you know, we're going to get the invite to the yacht with all the equity uh the equity bull market, guys.

>> Gotcha. Okay. All right. Well, that's good to know. That's good to know, >> guys. Behind the scenes, let's skip all the way to Binance investing in Circle. >> Yeah, they just 100 mil. And this comes on the heels of um this comes on the heels of Binance getting a like I don't know if it was a subpoena. I don't want to misquote, but it was effectively like Iran was laundering money through Binance as a result of all the Bitcoin that they were accepting for oil during these Iran sanctions. Some of that ended up making its way through Binance.

>> So perhaps Binance invests in Circle as a way to show the US that they're willing to comply with Circle's asset issuance rulings. I mean, is this not Tron, you know, buying a ton of World Liberty Financial coded, right? Where Justin Sun was getting persecuted. There was an SEC lawsuit against Tron. Tron ended up, you know, as one of the key and Justin Sun ended one of the key stakeholders of World Liberty Financial to basically buy Purity and impunity from the US forces. And Binance now invests $100 million in Circle. I mean, let's just see. So, five-year USDC partnership. The investment comes alongside a new five-year agreement expanding cooperation between the

world's largest crypto exchange and Circle. Obviously, we all know that Circle is in deep with Coinbase, which is another one of the largest crypto exchanges. And yes, we had the grill report from beef from Hyperlid yesterday. The AQA V2, whatever the acronym is, that's going to pay 500,000. >> Yeah, it's like two weeks from now. I believe it's $520,000 into the assistance fund every single day. >> Wow. >> $500,000 every single day.

>> Wow. So, it's an additional massive buy buy pressure. >> And yeah, those numbers I think make sense. If you think about all the USDC that is on Hyperlid, they're just now they're just getting the interest from it. >> Yeah. No, I hear you. That's that's epic. >> It's a sizable amount. And what do you think they're going to do with all that USDC in the in the assistance fund? >> Oh, they're going to buy back hype. >> I think they're going to hundy roll. >> They're going to hundy roll the hell out of that hundy roll. >> And so circles in deep with Hyperlid, in deep with Coinbase >> and and now in deep with Binance. It just kind of feels like it's out of left field a little bit. It is random, but I'm telling you, I think there's a play here for Binance to be seen in better

light by the US regulators and to give up some semblance of control to Circle, which by design is then to the SEC and to the DOJ and thus is like signaling to the US that hey, we're here to play ball with you guys. We don't want to be this offshore shady exchange, >> I guess. So, also didn't come from Binance US. came from Binance, >> right? Right. >> We'll see. Um, remember Binance had a stable coin, but it got um, >> shut down by, I believe it was the New York Attorney General's crypto office that >> went after it for being an unregistered security or, you know, had some dealings

that were deemed illegal. And so, they had to wind down, I think it was USDB or BUSD was the name was Binance dollar. and they had to wind it down. And so now maybe this is a move to gain a little bit more favor with some of the stable coin companies. >> I I I like it. Let's keep it rolling here. >> Uh next one I'm excited about. I have a feeling you're excited about as well because it has to do with Robin Hood chain and uh we are excited for our partner Infra, our local stablecoin partner and stable up >> uh co-host with us. stabled up is going to be with uh the CEO of Anchorage in just a few minutes and so obviously big news here. Fra is live on Robin Hood chain.

>> Yep. Awesome. Congrats to the team. Robin Hood chain obviously has a lot of activity. Uh FRA wants to be there, wants to be a winner from all this tokenization, super trend, mega trend. Uh they are positioned now to capture the upside with Robin Hood's growth. Um, so congrats to FRA and uh I think there'll be more growth of ex I think there could be exponential growth of F FRXUSD on Robin Hood chain compared to other chains rather quickly. >> I think so too. And remember Robin Hood is part of the Paxos global dollar network. But the fact that FRA is launching FRXUSD on Robin Hood to me signals that there is deeper movement and integration here that is extending FRAUSD beyond just you know some

permissionless stablecoin launch into one that's a deeper integration partner with the global do dollar network and Robin Hood. So I'm uh I'm very very excited to see this. Um awesome. We've got our next tweet to go over. Um, and we're going to talk about 1 in. >> Okay. >> So, let's do that. Um, so 1 in has launched this Aqua product for RWAS and they've really been crushing it.

>> Um, they've hit some pretty big numbers. >> Let me not mess those numbers up for you guys. Uh, so I believe they hit um >> I mean I'll tell you Aqua is a liquidity layer designed to let the same wallet balance support multiple strategies simultaneously. Something that we talk about on the show quite a bit. The money never needs to leave your wallet which is wild that it can stay in your wallet and it can be applied to different liquidity pools which is very very cool because then you can actually apply the same money. You have this >> I wouldn't even call it rehypotheation.

And I would call it capital efficiency that you can apply the same money to multiple liquidity pools. >> Yeah, man. And they they've done over $7 billion of volume. >> Wow. >> Um I think probably over eight now. So they are absolutely cooking. Um >> man, also Bitcoin Cash and Uniswap had that announcement today. >> Yeah. From the CME. >> Very interesting. Let's go and play this video here. >> Some you know attention required for for Aqua. We we enable this multiplier effect that I talked about where you your your wallet balance can back as many positions as you like. But what what we're not doing there is is rebalancing your your position for you.

>> No. And I think it's really worth emphasizing maybe I should have mentioned this already, right? Like providing liquidity carries risk, right? It just impermanent loss. You need to you need to know you need to know what you're doing to do this effectively, right? This is not something you can just turn up having never done it before and go, "Oh, this is a nice interface. I'm going to play around with it a bit. Oh, I'm number go up." Like this is not this is not that. Right. >> Exactly. So So your wallet your wallet balance is is the cap. Whatever you've approved for your tokens is the cap. But absolutely these I would say the typical DeFi risks apply to Aqua as well.

Very cool. Well, Andy, I think we are going to move into our first guest here in a little bit. So, thank you so much for joining. >> Love. Thank you for having me. Thank you for being a part of the Rollup Army, the Rollup family. You guys mean the world to Robbie and I. You guys are what make this show possible. Truly a pleasure to be able to rock with you guys day in and day out. I'm going to get back to New York soon enough. Um, and I will be back in the tokenization tower sooner than you guys know. Much love. Stay bullish.

Stay long. Stay strong. And you guys have a great day. >> Andy, before you go, why don't you give us a quick update on the rollup near product? Where can people find that? What's the status of the giveaway? >> The the giveaway should I mean the 200 bucks to five winners will get sent ASAP. It's just >> taking a little bit of time. Uh, but we got the addresses. We'll get everything taken care of. Um, and we will keep we will keep working on the product. So, that's all I got for now. >> Beautiful. Well, thanks for joining us. Enjoy uh your five-star resort down there and uh enjoy the pumps.

>> Yeah, man. Guys, stay bullish out there. All right. Peace. Much love. >> See you soon. See you soon, guys. >> We've got Stabled Up coming up in just a moment. We're going to hit a quick standby. Hope you guys enjoyed the segment. It's a pleasure to catch up with my co-host Andy. As always, the portfolio construction is going well and we're excited. I don't know if are we in disbel it feels like we're somewhere between like disbelief that it's going higher, but also some semblance of euphoria because we're up so much. So, we're going to have to figure that one out.

But, we're going to be uh we're going to be continuing to cruise along. And then of course we're going to keep things rolling as the Hyundai roll continues on multiple assets across this industry. We're going to keep crushing. So guys, we're going to hit a quick standby. We are excited about the conference circuit coming up. So we got a quick word from our next conference after Cyos is going to be token 249. Quick word from them and then we'll be back with Nathan McCauley, CEO of Anchorage. [music] >> [music] [music]

[music] >> We get deep. We get deep. We know we get deep. We get deep. We get deep. Knock. We get deep. Knock.

We get deep know we get deep [music] know we get deep we get deep know we get deep we get we get deep we get [music] deep we get we get deep [music] know we get >> [music] [music] >> You know we get deep. [music] We get deeper. We get deep. You know we

get deep. We get deep. [music] We get deep. You know we get deep. [music] [music] >> Welcome back to another episode of Stabled Up, our premier weekly show covering the ins and outs of digital dollars, stable coins, and the [music] future of decentralized finance. show is made possible by FRA and FRA is powering the financial engine of the internet powering FRXUSD and genius compliant stable coins. This is [music] the stablecoin super cycle made possible by

FRA. Now enjoy stabled up our weekly stable coin show. [music] All right guys, here we are with Stabled Up, our flagship stable coin show sponsored by Fracks. They've got a genius compatible stable coin and leading the stablecoin charge. And today we've got Nathan McCauley talking about why banks are going onchain. Nathan co-founded Anchorage Digital and they are also leading the charge when it comes to helping banks go onchain. They're one of the first federally chartered digital asset banks in the United States. They issue USA, that's Tether's US regulated dollar stable coin. Uh and we actually just covered something around USAT and A at Avalanche Summit last week. So big big

partnerships that are happening and Nathan is here to talk about it. Uh Nathan, man, welcome to the show. It's a pleasure to have you. >> Thanks. I'm really happy to be here. >> Absolutely. I really enjoyed our last time that we uh we had you on as well. So it's good to have you back and uh it just feels like everything. I mean, we're hitting on all cylinders since the last time we had you. Excuse the uh runchy language there on my hat. I'll take it off for this one, but it is truly how I feel. And so, um, man, I think you can tell that we are, uh, excited about where we stand, not only in the markets, but also in the industry broadly about all of the institutional adoption. We're calling it institutional FOMO. It's happening at every level.

Stable coins feel like they're a national economic priority. The way that they're twisting duration out of the bond market, it feels like everything is hitting on all cylinders. Is that how it feels inside at Anchorage Digital Headquarters as well? >> Yeah, I think that's exactly right. We're seeing um you know a a few mega trends happen. Certainly the adoption of digital assets across the institutional landscape uh banks, broker dealers, fintexs, u across stables, across tokenized assets, everybody talking about like hey is this the question now is not do assets come on chain but how do they come on chain uh via native issuance or DTCC or some other mechanism by which they come on chain. Uh so the

kinds of debates that we're having, the kinds of questions we're having are very tactical, very real, solving uh road mapaps from teams with uh P&L responsibility. Uh so yeah, we're seeing it across the board. I uh I had a conversation with someone earlier today. It's not been released yet, but it was uh with a rep from Tempo, and he was talking about how important the Genius Act was, which you know was this landmark piece of regulation in the stable coin space. Obviously more recently we've had the clarity act fail to reach closure and so given that Anchorage and yourself you guys are interfacing with banks I'd assume on essentially a daily basis is the clarity act a significant obstacle

that has not been overcome and therefore will hinder the bank's entrance into this space or was it relatively inconsequential and banks are coming in anyway despite clarity act >> agree with over whoever it was earlier on today from the from the other team that uh the genius act was an incredible milestone for digital assets. I mean there's a lot of things that that come in there. So first of all you look at it and say it itself legally blesses a path for stable coins. Uh and so there's a a first order answer there on there's a such a thing as a stable coin. It's a legal entity. It's a legal uh concept uh that now can be regulated. Uh but the implication there is that a bunch of the stuff that stable coins depend on are

also good. Chains are good, blockchains are good, uh decentralized networks are good. Uh and so it comes with a lot of built-in implications that I think are in many ways the unlock for many banks to start to come in. So I would say that genius was already an unlock. Uh most banks their primary business is in movement, settlement and holding of the dollar. and the fact that the dollar is getting upgraded uh to like 10 times better product with stable coins uh means that all of them now can't ignore what's going on. >> Uh so with respect to clarity uh is clarity a big loss or is it going to slow us down? I think the the way that I would think about it is that clarity was going to be an accelerant so things were going to go even faster. There was going

to be even more FOMO and I still think that that will uh take place. I think it was actually really wise what um Congress and the administration did with Genius, which is take off a chunk of the overall crypto landscape regulatory structure and pass it as an individual bill. >> Um for those who aren't maybe historians of regulatory history, like probably most people aren't, but unfortunately within crypto we have to be. uh you know that uh securities legislation actually rolled out over the course of a decade across three different bills um the 30 act um 33 act and the 40 act each of which established a different thing. So

you know there was a there was a bill to describe what a security is. There was a bill to decide describe what an investment advisor is. there was a bill to describe what an exchange act tried to bite off all of that across the definitions of assets and across different asset classes as well. And so it was inherently a very ambitious bill. Uh but what I imagine will happen over the next um few years is that we'll still see the acceleration, we'll still see the adoption, but maybe we'll see pieces of this broken off into chunks uh and then solved individually either through rulem at the legislative agencies or mean even more importantly as legislation that passes uh but in a more uh focused and and structured way rather than as one big omnibus. I I

really like the framing of the potential accelerant but not the deceleration that people might be speculating that it it entails. Um we would have moved a lot faster but we're still moving at a break next pace. So very very uh relevant to a lot of the people that are watching this and looking at how this will evolve over the coming weeks and months. And again, your company at Anchorage interfaces with several of the banking and stable coin institutional players that are looking at entering the space, looking at how to navigate, right, some of the some of the stable coin and also the tokenization, you know, wave more broadly. And I guess

what I'm what I'm getting to is that a lot of these financial institutions, banks being part of that that cohort were positioned against crypto in some way, shape, or form. And for a long time, that was the rheto rhetoric. It was, hey, be your own bank. We don't need the banks, right? We're going to go crypto. We're going to self- custody. We're going to do all these things. Is that still the dichotomy? Is it still banks versus, you know, the individual taking finance into their own hands? How relevant is that oppositional framing now versus look I mean we have more news that banks are looking at launching stable coin programs maybe they're doing so in a KYC AML compliant way but that's not necessarily antithetical to

self-custody and some of the you know underlying principles that digital assets stand for >> yeah so I mean lots to dig into there I think that um there's a number of apertures to look at the banks across the country you've got the the very large gibs. Um, which I I joke with my team that the very large GIS don't even really exist. There's no such thing as a large bank. There's a bunch of divisions uh within that large bank, each that have their own uh agenda and own kind of thing that they are they're working on. So, you have wealth departments that absolutely want their clients to be able to buy and hold Bitcoin. Uh you've got uh payments divisions that want uh stable coins to be integrated but also want tokenized deposits to be

integrated. Um you've got the lending and prime desks that want to accept crypto as collateral or accept tokenized assets as collateral so they can move them more freely. Um and so the the idea that there is one view that banks have and one orientation the banks have towards the uh digital asset industry, the crypto industry, blockchain industry, uh is just a it's a a foolish thing to even think about. It's like kind of a category error. Uh the right way to think about it is individual groups that have a mandate and want to want to get something done and want to improve their um business lines. Now there is unfortunately a bank lobby and the bank lobby actually weirdly doesn't always act in the very interests of the banks themselves. Uh and so I think that's one of the weird things where uh

what you see is that the bank lobby was advocating for things that sometimes when you actually go talk to the individual banks they didn't even want they didn't even care about that much. Uh and so it's u a little bit of an interesting dynamic that comes there but make no mistake banks are going to be adopting uh blockchain. banks are be adopting tokenization. Uh banks are going to be holding Bitcoin and I think it's uh to your point uh not just not going to come in uh contention with the decentralized narrative but actually going to help the decentralization narrative very meaningfully. >> Yeah. And I I think that's absolutely right and the more that we've thought about this is it pays not to be a maximalist or tribalistic in this sense.

It pays to be open-minded to the ways in which large institutions could come on chain. Ultimately, sure, some of these institutions are coming on with permissioned environments. They're doing so with again KYC and AML. Maybe it's a walled garden inside of this permission environment, but that's still a step in the right direction that ultimately gets us into one composable economic zone of interoperability, right? Maybe there's a there's a a zone that adheres to some of these institutional principles and then you've got other zones that ultimately have more of the you know cipher punk ethos but it is better than them being this closed system offchain once we bring it onchain we can do a lot more

composable things with it uh and I think that gives us a much more capital efficient structure as well um and and so to that end Nathan I'd love just to kind of just to illustrate Anchorage's product stack back because I think maybe we did go through this, you know, several months ago back in the day, but just to really paint a very vivid picture as to how Anchorage is supporting some of the institutions out there and helping bring more people into this economy on chain and and supporting the tokenization efforts. Can you just kind of unpack the way in which you help customers? Who are your primary customers and what is the product stack with Anchorage that ultimately helps these customers?

>> Sure. So, I think there's there's broadly speaking three verticals. One of them is uh prime, one of them is financial infrastructure and then one of them is uh what I'd call commercial and enterprise type use cases. Uh and so prime is where we are helping a client directly. Uh they directly come to us that we are their bank, we are their trading partner, we are their staking provider or their settlement provider. We help them collateralize their assets to borrow against them. anything you everything you'd want to do at a traditional prime or traditional custodian, traditional bank, uh we can do that for you across both crypto assets and traditional assets. We hold um we hold treasuries for people un um unoffchain treasuries, you know, we can do that. We hold uh cash for people as

well. Uh and so we are a a full service bank that also has the full gamut of uh crypto capabilities. That's kind of the the prime stack and very popular um you used by most of the crypto investors in the world right now today. Second vertical is what we call financial infrastructure. This is where you take the incredible technology we've built for our bank and how have it enable your bank. Uh so this could be uh custody features, this could be uh outsourced trading features, this could be uh settlement uh infrastructure, uh tokenization infrastructure, uh tokenized deposits, um stable coins, kind of anything where you're looking to build your business in crypto on top of the infrastructure that

we've provided. Uh and the third area that's kind of more developing is like commercial and enterprise. And our our vision there is the the next set of adopters after the banks is going to be the Fortune 500. Is going to be people that aren't even necessarily in a financial services business at all, but wants to use the technology that we've built, wants to use the infrastructure that we've built to optimize their processes. Um, and that may not look like them holding Bitcoin on their balance sheet. That might look like, hey, we've got a bunch of international suppliers. We'd like to pay them and stable coins are just better than the dollar. Uh and so we want to be able to do those kinds of use cases. Um and so all of our all of our solutions kind of fall in those three buckets. We you ser

directly uh we build infrastructure so you can build your business or then kind of the frontier which is um uh commercial and enterprise use cases. >> Yeah. And which of these segments is fastest growing? Which one is largest? Maybe you could just unpack like what portion of the business is falling into each of these categories. >> Sure. So uh uh prime is where we're we're well built up and that's that business is kind of growing automatically right now as more and more clients come on. Uh financial infrastructure is the one that's really been um boosted by say this this year's macro thesis around banks adopting uh digital assets. So um stable coins is uh growing very nicely there. tokenized

deposits. We'll be rolling out some um some announcements coming soon about banks adopting us as their tokenized deposit infrastructure and and then moving on from there. Uh tokenization as well. And so all of those uh kinds of use cases using our infrastructure to build up your bank infrastructure. Uh that's that's really big for us. How I I've had people come on the tokenized deposit seems to be this thing that's very nebulous right now and we've got some mixed opinions from people that have come on the show and support it and then others who come on the show and say look this is this is totally inconsequential like it's really not much happening here. It is I think someone called it like the least interesting thing happening in crypto.

But again, it feels like a stepping stone getting to a more tokenized and a more onchain economy. Given that you help banks set up their tokenized deposit infrastructure, how important are tokenized deposits versus just going directly to a stable coin? What does the tokenized deposit allow a bank to do that they can't currently do without a tokenized deposit? So it is um it is hard to understand unless you have um steeped yourself in um banking core integrations. Uh the fact that many banks don't actually know how much money is in their accounts until the end of the day because all their systems are batch processed. There's so many things that are just kind of basic stuff that is kind of busted about the way that

banks operate right now and they're just they've just come to accept it. Uh and so when you tell them, hey, you can have a 247 rail that allows you to move assets even within your bank, move assets between your subsidiaries, um they are uh blown away. Uh and even if the technology is a um closed network, uh that is kind of just even internal to their bank, it still brings them forward. Uh but I what I would tell to anyone that is skeptical about that use case is listen to what happens when you bring tokenized deposits into a bank. They get wallet infrastructure.

They get contact with uh blockchain systems. They get contact with uh ledgering systems. Uh and so they it actually ends up being a great way to get started with crypto. Uh that guess what? after they have the wallet infrastructure, it's a very small leap to say, "Hey, now we're going to start accepting stable coins or now we're gonna allow Bitcoin to come in through this wallet infrastructure that we've built." Um, and so it's really kind of like a first step on a on a long journey uh that I think many of these banks are going to be over for the next couple of decades.

>> Would you call tokenized deposits a Trojan horse? Well, um the Trojan Howers didn't um didn't end up well for those that accepted it. Uh and so I think it's a it's Trojan horse in that it's a gift. Uh but it's a gift that doesn't turn on you. It doesn't betray you. It actually, you know, helps you in many different ways. So I don't I don't know if Trojan horse would be exactly the right analogy. Um maybe a uh a garden uh that grows and bears much fruit over much time. There's probably some better analogy there. It it it seems as if the institutional custody infrastructure is systemically important. I mean it is to basically grow all of the other components of the onchain ecosystem as

they are onboarded. H how difficult is it for an institutional partner be it a bank to integrate some of their existing systems into let's say the custody system that Anchorage has as part of its product stack and your you know general financial infrastructure stack to accept tokenized deposits to accept you know tokenized assets in general what is the onboarding process like for a bank or an institution to how much do they have to unwind or rip out and then implement at the Anchorage system.

>> So, it's a uh it's an evolution that everybody has to go through. There's no one that is starting this by saying, "Hey, let's rip out an existing system and replace it with uh blockchain based rails." So, it's always an additive >> um an additive thesis where you're getting more features and more capabilities uh and then going through an evolutionary process. Uh I imagine that these will be side cars uh for quite some time, maybe a decade on where additional use cases are moving toward that. Uh but you must still support the legacy. You've got hundreds th hundreds of thousands maybe millions of clients using the existing system and there's no way you can just cut over to it directly. Um and so I really think it's going to be about seductive adoption. um

some use cases that are very useful to a set of clients and those kind of compound. Then you start to see uh a bunch more assets get delivered on top of those rails, whether it's tokenized deposits leading to stable coins leading to tokenized uh money market funds, general purpose securities, and then onto um maybe even tokenized metals, who knows? Uh there's a there's a bunch of things that kind of get added on over time. Uh but certainly no one is doing a rip and replace on this. This is all this is all purely additive. I I realize we're we're coming up on time, but I just got a couple more questions. One of which is just to drill into the technical implementation that you're describing.

Does it look like a carbon copy of the existing infrastructure on blockchain rails pretty much running in parallel side by side to make sure that there's uptime and make sure that there's, you know, seamless and and uh no no, you know, potential bottlenecks or trap doors or anything for a little while until making the switch over. These these two systems run in parallel. Make sure that they they net out and tie out at, you know, different periods throughout the day. And then eventually you anticipate suns setting the legacy infrastructure and moving completely onto blockchain rails.

>> Uh I think that to the degree you're going to sunset anything the suns setting will be much farther out than that. Um no one's doing this and saying hey we're just going to move all of our deposits to tokenized deposits. They're saying hey these use cases on this subset of clients are going to be on tokenized deposits. And so the existing system is running asis and a net new system is sitting beside it that enables some of the use cases that weren't possible with the existing ledgers. Um and so it's it's all purely additive and um so no one has to feel like there's this hard cut off date uh where you shift and everything uh is is on those new rails. when it does eventually get to that point where the technology use cases are comprehensive enough they can cover all the use cases then yes you

might look at something like a progressive cut over like you described uh but nobody's looking at that right now everyone's looking at say hey um add a tokenized deposit use case for a subset of clients allow some clients to borrow against Bitcoin inside the existing collateralization system uh move some of the um tokenized repo use cases um away from existing repo onto tokenized repo so we have more collateral mobility. Uh so it's all uh you know kind of starts with experiments and then rolls out a little bit more. Um no one's no one's trying to do a hard cut off.

>> Yeah. Okay. Makes sense there. And this is gradual and evolutionary because these are you know these are large ships and they >> you know they they turn slowly. Uh but over time right the these make significant differences in the way that these things are structured. Uh last question here, Nathan, is just kind of thinking broadly. You know, we've got what feels like multiple contributing factors that are now at a convergence or a confluence where it does, and like we opened the show, feel like we're hitting on all cylinders. We've got what we're calling the tokenization super cycle. A lot of that is born out of regulation for tokenized securities, CFTC, perpetuals regulation moving forward. We

got the Genius Act that's helping stable coins. We're also seeing like you mentioned the repo market, idle capital, right, is becoming productive. A lot of this is happening. We're now seeing uh some of the largest exchanges in the world, be it NIC, uh the London Stock Exchange, NASDAQ, are moving to 235. That certainly feels like a stepping stone to 247. A lot of that feels like it's really only possible on blockchain rails. And so given that we've got this confluence of factors, we anticipate a a surplus just an absolute wave of tokenized assets now entering the ecosystem into a lot of the same DeFi and onchain primitives that you know have been around for a long time and

you're helping to facilitate that migration and that tokenization wave. I'm curious as now the it it feels as if the total addressable market of this this industry has grown in order of magnitude. Who do you think are the biggest winners? Who do you think is positioned to benefit the most from the tokenization super cycle? >> Great question. So, uh I would I would start out saying that the biggest winner is the industry at large. Um as uh as assets move on chain, uh we're going to have systematic reduction reduction of risk in the system, systematic uh uh acceleration of settlement times.

Uh, and so the the good news here is it's it's truly a a win-win for the entire industry at large. Um, and so I think that's the the most important thing to keep in mind is that this is this is positive sum. Uh, everybody can be winners without there necessarily being losers in any meaningful sense. Um, and so I think the the whole industry is going to win as a as a result of this. Um, some some players are positioned particularly nicely. Uh, infrastructure providers to the financial institutions certainly going to do well. uh chains uh where the assets end up settling are going to do extremely well. Um and so who who is going to win the the settlement leg for stable coins? Which chain is that going to be on? That's going to be a big one to be to be won. And then as you

mentioned, DeFi protocols uh the whole point to move things on chain is not just for faster settle settlement time uh but also applications being uh utilized uh so that more interesting stuff can be done with the assets themselves. And so um the the DeFi protocols that are mature and have been built well also kind of naturally benefit from this movement. Very cool. Nathan, thank you so much for spending some time with us today and uh for being stewards of the tokenization super cycle as well. You guys have been a I mean a a a great voice in helping to educate banks, financial institutions at large and uh yeah, would love to have you on again soon and uh do some more with you guys in the very near future. Awesome.

>> Uh because uh it's it's always a good time. >> We'll see you again soon. Thanks. >> Have a good one. Bye bye. >> All right, guys. We're gonna keep things rolling along here. That was Nathan McCauley at Anchorage, the co-founder and CEO. Who knows? They uh they've got some big things going on and uh I anticipate that they are going to see a lot more growth very very soon. Um they are in an interesting position given that they are helping to support a lot of the institutional buildout of tokenization thus far. Um guys, we are going to hit a quick standby. We're going to get our uh we're going to get our thoughts in order. That was stabled up episode 49 and uh we are going to be right back with the conclusion of today's show. Be

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We get we get deep. [music] We get deep. Yo yo yo. What's going on, guys? This is Itan with the rollup. We're going to be patrolling the streets of New York City getting answers to the questions that you guys have most. What are people trading? What are people investing in? How much do people actually budget? We're going to have people from all over, all different investment classes, people who are dead broke, people who are dead whales, people who are just loaded. There won't be a mayor or politician to stop us on the streets.

We're going to go everywhere. All five burrows. We're taking over the 212. We're back live. All right, guys. A few more things to talk about before we wish you a happy rest of your Tuesday. This one is from our friend of the show, Fintech Frank. Frank Chaparo himself. Best mustache in the game. and he says CME is bringing unis swap to its derivative market. Also saw that Bitcoin Cash was part of this announcement. That one is a little bit less relevant. The exchange plans to launch UNI futures on October 19th pending regulatory review with both standard 10,000 UNI and micro uh 10,000 UNI contracts. Another major DeFi token is getting institutional

grade futures. I mean look, one question is why do you need institutional grade futures on the CME when you have these things able to be traded on hyperlquid, right? But obviously perpetual futures and the traditional futures market are a little bit different. Uh there is a lot of market makers, hedge funds, capital allocators that are set up to trade futures on the CME. Maybe they're not necessarily set up to trade on Hyperlid, especially while hyperlquid is not yet available in the United States. This announcement helps move capital allocators closer to some of these digital assets. You guys know Bitcoin and ETH have been on CE for a long time.

Uh look, ultimately this is a win not only for Uniswap and Bitcoin Cash, but also what it shows as the path for big trading venues like the CME as they break further and further into crypto. We anticipate more digital assets getting listed on venues such as the CME. Let's continue. Next up, we've got our local macro correspondent Andy Constant talking about a Santa outlook, potential Santa rally. Not the Trader Almanac version Gez, because who cares about that one. Instead, if you scroll down, he shows a little bit about this image. What he points to

is the potential for Bessant to pull a Yellen 2023 quarterly refunding announcement flip on November 5th and kick off an epic monthsl long Santa rally. Absolutely ginormous if true because this is how the money printer ultimately gets turned on. I did a little bit of research on what exactly this means. what is the Yellen 2023 QRA flip and why November 5th? And it turns out that November 5th is the next quarterly refunding announcement for Secretary Besson. Uh so what exactly happened back in August of 2023 when Secretary Janet Yelen was the

Treasury Secretary? Well, I'll tell you. It's a great question. And so QR is the quarterly refunding announcement. This is the Treasury's regularly quarterly statement on how it plans to issue notes and bonds to finance government borrowing. Again, as you guys know, there is a transition or a twist that is currently happening in the macroeconomic environment. We're calling this monetary accommodative policy. Accommodative monetary policy means that we are loosening financial conditions, allowing the economy to run a little bit hotter. Inflation is high, but it also means money is printed. And you want to be allocated in assets. Ideally, hard money, scarce assets that appreciate

because they are a fixed supply and they're denominated in the US dollar. And a looser financial system means more US dollars in circulation. And so this is somewhat dictated yes by the Fed and the interest rates and yes by Treasury Secretaries use of bills and bonds and the QR is what specifies how much in bonds and bills will be issued and injected into the supply of money over the next quarter. And the next announcement that we have is on November 5th. This is when Bessant could in theory make some changes on his plan on how much to finance in terms of the US government.

Remember the US Treasury is responsible for issuing bills and bonds in order to finance the government. Uh the Treasury said in this is and so I'll tell you what Janet Yellen did when she was Treasury Secretary in 2023. In August of 2023, she put out a QR that said it would start raising coupon auction sizes for the first time in 2 and a half years. It plan to increase the 2-year, 5year, 7-year uh notes with additional modest increases in 10, 20, and 30-year securities. We know that Bessant so far wants to buy back long-term bonds.

If you extrapolate that theory, right, politicians still need to spend money. the government still needs to get financed. And so if you're decreasing the issuance of long-term bonds, then in theory, you would also need uh to kind of counteract that, to counterbalance that, which would mean increasing the issuance of short-term bonds. And if that happens, then we all of a sudden get a ton of cash like instruments flooding the market. cash flooding the market or cash like instruments floating the market is effectively the same as money printer go burr. And so when Janet Yellen made this announcement in 2023, it came against a backdrop of sharply higher projected borrowing needs. The

Treasury estimated $1 trillion in privately held marketable borrowing for July December quarter uh which was up significantly from uh the previous quarter. That jump reflected a rebuilt Treasury cash balance sheet after the debt sealing fight, weaker receipts and higher outlays. It also arrived one day after Fitch downgraded the US credit rating. Markets initially treated the extra long-term supply as bearish, but again, Bessant has said that he wants to buy back the long-term supply. He wants to take less issuance on the long-term supply. And again, in theory, that means moving more of the issuance to the short-term supply. Um, so Janet Yellen didn't particularly uh, you know, in

terms of macroeconomics, didn't really do a great job because Treasury yields didn't really like the announcement. but our crypto assets really really did and that is ultimately what sparked the Bitcoin run to 120K in 2024 and 2025. So the August QR back in 2023 from Janet Yellen is a very interesting lens through which we can view Tre now Treasury Secretary Bessence actions and be aware of this QR on November 5th.

Anticipate that some volatility will come from that announcement. And if we get this tweet, let's get the tweet back up because if the tweet is correct, the change in that QR, if it's similar to what Janet Yellen did back in August of 2023, could kick off an epic Santa rally, which would be phenomenal. And uh we've got a lot of catalysts ahead of us. You guys know that October we're going to get this pilot program from the DTCC that is a ton of tokenization catalyst. And then uh we are going to get a QRA announcement on November 5th, so after October. And we shall see how bullish that is and whether or not it sparks this Santa

rally. Uh that would be on the heels of midterms. So we'll see. Let's keep going. Last tweet of the day. Last tweet of the day. Someone in the stream says, "Say ETH." All right. Batty 912. ETH. The ticker is ETH. good article from Anom that aptly dis details the different options for choosing crypto investments and why you're either long businesses printing cash or non sovereign store of values Evan chooses hype lit pump and bitcoin/zcash I mean guys you didn't have to read this article you don't have to read this article I mean this is exactly what we've been talking about I mean guy freedom guy tell tell the people tell the people

rand corp Tell the people you guys have been watching. All right, you guys have been watching. And so guys, have we not been saying the barbell thesis this entire time? Have we not been saying on one hand we've got hard money scarce assets benefiting the most from accommodative monetary policy Bitcoin and Zcash in particular and then on the other side of the barbell have we not been saying that onchain businesses are primarily benefiting from the legitimization of the industry from the highest powers that be including President Donald Trump and Treasury Secretary Scott Bessant and in particular the businesses not just with product market fit but also with user activity and real revenue. And the ones that are doing programmable value

acrruel to their token, maybe in the form of buybacks, maybe in the form of some other programmable value acrruel mechanism, are the assets in particular to watch out of the onchain business core component, the core cohort of onchain businesses that are benefiting from the legitimization of the industry. Is that not exactly the thesis that we've been describing on this show? In fact, I would argue that this article may even be late. I would consider, yes, we've been talking about the barbell thesis for months. Yes, we've been saying that these are going to outperform and yes, they now have outperformed to the tune of significant outperformance of the majors. If you're

looking at Zcash on Bitcoin and you're looking at some of the other onchain businesses mentioned here, Hyperlid, Lighter, Pump Fund on ETH or Solana, they have significantly outperformed past tense. Now, looking forward, it almost feels as if the barbell thesis described here is crowded. And I was on the show yesterday kind of planting my flag in the ground saying that it is crowded and I think the revenue meta could be coming to an end. The revenue meta could be dead. Okay, these things are still going to appreciate in US dollar terms. But I think part of the revenue meta was that it was an outperformance thesis and I think that is potentially over. I think now as we

go from the pre-bull into the bull, I think we are entering a m momentumdriven asset regime, which means that we may no longer be tethered to fundamentals when it comes to the valuation of these assets. I think we are entering a regime where bull market animal spirits are here. they exist and those bull market animal spirits can drive valuations that are a bit irrational when they're tethered to fundamentals and you can look at some of the outperformance as of late. So take a look at something that did outperform during the pre-bull because it has revenue. Take near for instance, right? If you value NER based

on its fundamentals, you're going to reach a valuation where it was you're going to reach something higher. Now if you look at based on its fundamentals it has significantly outpaced and I think now it is riding on pure momentum which is incredibly bullish and I think that are those are the that is the kind of sentiment that I'm taking a look at. I'm looking at hey what is going to continue to drum up momentum and maybe started on a fundamental basis but is now reaching another echelon of momentum in which the market can take it higher by itself. it doesn't need to generate any more users product market fit activity uh uh

revenue buy fees or buybacks in order to go higher right from just a pure price to earnings or discounted cash flow model we're getting less connected to fundamentals or less connected to reality in that sense the reality is becoming hey this thing could go a lot higher let's all pour into that let's all rotate into that and it doesn't necessarily necessarily need to be tethered to some price toearnings fundamental revenue that is underscoring that asset. And so I think that is the thing to watch out for. And that is why I continue to be bullish Ethereum because I think people are sidelined. I think people are going to be in this barbell thesis portfolio for a while and

it's going to do well, but I think then we're going to start to see outperformers that don't really fit into a bucket in that barbell thesis quite nicely. And so ETH is a great example of this, right? Because the barbell thesis is hard money on one side. Is ETH hard money? No, not really. I mean the ETH is money thesis you can maybe say that it denominates a lot of the tokenized equities trading on Robin Hood and it is the base asset for you know DeFi but the ETH is money you know theory didn't really pan out in practice that's one side of the barbell the other side of the barbell is that ETH doesn't really generate a ton of revenue

especially if you look at the Robin Hood thesis and you look at the breakdowns that you know our friend Lorenzo from Arc Invest does and you look at how the revenue venue has scaled on Robin Hood and how it has stagnated on Ethereum. Ethereum charges a flat cost for its block space. Despite Robin Hood generating so much more in volume, so much more in revenue, Ethereum did not keep pace with that revenue projection. And so, yes, Arbitum did well and I think you could actually put Arbitum into the category of onchain businesses benefiting from the legitimization of the industry and doing quite well as a result of that. However, I don't think you can put Ethereum in that bucket. And I think therefore you have to think, you know, does ETH get any sort of bid? Is

there any sort of structural uptrend that we'll see from Ethereum because it doesn't fit into these two buckets? And I think the answer is yes. I think we will still see a structural trend and bullish trend emerge on Ethereum despite not falling into these two buckets because I think it is no longer necessary for an asset to adhere to any of the to to either of these principles. And I think we're now entering a momentum based regime in which the assets with momentum will end up picking steam and don't really need to have a good reason why, right? You don't really need to put your finger on, oh it generates this much m uh this much revenue or you don't really need to put

your finger on like hey this is used as money in real use cases. It can kind of just be like, hey, Ethereum is like, you know, there's a lot of AI agent econ economic activity happening and hey, you know, there's like a lot of DeFi happening and there's a lot of tokenized assets that are going on Ethereum and so what? It's not money. It's not got a lot of revenue, but like it's really important, so it's got to go up. And it's like, yeah, I guess, you know, like you can't really put your finger on it, but I don't as we go from pre-bull to to a bull market, I I don't think you really need to put your finger on it.

Like we were in a very like show me the money, make it very real, spell it out because capital is limited and I need to be extremely aware as to how I will generate an ROI by putting my capital at stake in this asset. Now that monetary conditions are a little bit looser and investors are increasingly a little bit more lz fair about where they allocate their capital, I think we're going to see a lot more flows into the things that kind of feel right like if before you were thinking with your brain and doing deep analytics, now it's more of like intuition. It's more of a feeling as to

like, oh, this thing's going to go up, this thing's going to go down. That is what is driving the market, increasingly driving the market as we extend deeper into the bull. That's it, guys. Tremendous show. Hope you enjoyed. Give us a dub in the chat. That's where we're going to wrap it up today. So, you can tell, I mean, we're obviously evolving. We're evolving. If we were in the pre-bull before, which is what it felt like because there were kind of the secular, you know, assets that that did well. Um, you know, you always want to challenge your assumptions, challenge your priors, right? Reset your expectations. Uh, and that's what we're doing with our portfolio thesis. And so, guys, I mean, a lot of you watch this show day in and

day out. You subscribe, you like, you're winning, you're outperforming the baseline of the market. And so, you're thinking to yourself, I've been in this barbell, this hard money, and these onchain businesses, the revenue meta, and the hard money. I've been in this for months. It's done incredibly well. Why would I sell? Why if Bitcoin's going to go to $250,000? Zcash is going to go to three, four, 5K. Not financial advice, but why would I sell if these are inevitable outcomes? Sure. Yes, I agree. I think that is going to happen.

But for those who are maybe a little late to the party, you're looking for outperformance, maybe it makes sense to understand where the flows are coming from and where they're going and understand how the big flaming hot ball of money is going to pinball across this industry. as that flaming hot ball of money kind of picks up steam and picks up momentum, you kind of want to have an understanding of where it's going to move, at least a rough idea. And that's what I'm going to leave you with today. Thank you so much.

We love you. Thank you to everyone behind the scenes for helping. Thank you to all the guests, everyone watching. We will see you tomorrow. Peace. See you. Goodbye. Adios. Hire tuteloo sayanara. Adios. Goodbye. [music] [music]