The Next Frontier for DAOs

Transcript

[Music] so welcome everyone to this panel I'm really excited because I mean those are so important right we've been learning a lot during like the last years but I think this year in particular taught us a lot about how important is think on new Evolution in Dow the New Frontiers so this is basically what this panel is about um before we start I encourage you you the audience to get alert because we are going to ask you so many questions so I'm just going to say that and uh yeah so excited about this lineup of panelist I'm going to start introducing

aene from scroll Eugene is working on governance at scroll foundation and it's a research director or director at metago at scroll elene is focused on the newly launched Dow and at metag go he leads the grants innovation lab and support the Stars so I would love you to add to explain more about the Scrolls uh launch right the governance infrastructure but also why DS are important for you like now in 2024 yeah sure I'll start with the latter hi everyone um so in terms of why I think Dows are important uh or maybe to rephrase that as why I choose to work in Dows is I'm unaware of another place

that's experimenting this much with governance approaches because at the end of the day at least for me what Dows are all about is streamlining how we can coordinate as a collective on a shared goal and you know things like co-ops have existed for Millennia so this is not a new challenge but the essence of what what we're doing here at least from my perspective is trying to streamline Cooperative ownership and management um and so as part of that kind of what we're starting with at scroll now uh because we just launched so we we're not you know we don't have proposals up or we're not at that stage of things uh but we are doing this co-creation cycle which is effectively an attempt at taking an approach rooted in participatory democracy and co-creating the initial Focus because I think a lot

of dows you know you have Labs you have Foundation you have a dow and all three of these have different kind of tensions and incentives and uh just different people working in them so how do you actually maximize alignment enough so that all three of these can benefit from each other uh but that they're not literally you know different versions of the same thing so yeah this kind of alignment is really important thank you so much so now I'm going to talk about Jean Jean is part of the Lio infrastructure team and uh focus on informal uh design governance participation and delegates program Jean thank you so much for being here and oh so do you have a mic yeah I yeah we can share but they're going to help us as

well tell us more about the the lightos uh governance framework and as well why DS are important for you all right uh hi everyone I'm Jen and yes I'm contributor in light da uh firstly want I actually to agree that da are important because it's probably the only one innovation in organizational design in this century and the only way to understand how it works and to make it works actually is contributing to the Dow um and regard in the lighted hour it's quite mature uh I wanted to say that that's open for

everyone who are ready to go deep enough in the structure in the proposal in the all constraints that you face when you trying to understand something really transparent but mature nice thank you so much now let's talk about Marlin Marlin is a co-founder of moral apps he started by Leading the onchain team and now is leading the integration team to support the whole Morpho ecosystem Moro is still in developing right so what would you say about this uh Journey that you're like going through it to build this this new Dow and also why are you so excited about that right um

so yeah I'm super excited because I think it's it's been like three years since like uh two two years since the token has been deployed and it's not not transferable yet so I think it's like one of the only uh protocol that is like um uh this old with no liquid token uh yet and uh I deeply think that it can like change like the incentives of like uh the different stakeholders uh that are um either using the protocol or building on top of it so I'm we are really excited about like the idea of like what will happen um through this uh long journey like will it like be maybe a playbook for other protocols like to

wait a little bit more like to create more relationship with their users before um before like launching like the token or having it like liquid like uh day one so um yeah super excited about that and we'll see uh right now the the the Forum is like talking about the token launch and many over like how to Str structure the governance uh so um but I guess we'll talk uh talk about this a bit later on great so let me introduce myself my name is Angela I am core contributor at wre Citizen and also SM contributor and the arbitrum Dao and recently we've been uh learning about uh Dao Trends in the 2024 we can briefly say that some of the most important

things happened this year were about rest Direction which is basically people is thinking about new committees but also some of them are saying let's start from scratch and at the same time participation lack of particip ipation or how can we uh ensure that more participants are actively contributing and also token utility I don't know if you heard about but some THS are starting thinking about how can we do these tokens more valuable thinking on that which is launch uh like some topics in in in as a group and then I'm going to introduce you guys to help us understand what's your opinion around it so let's start talking about Dow operations and also security around it

Jen you are part of the infra team in the light and you mentioned that if you want to be part of it it's open but you need to go in deep right and and in this one so what do you see as the most significant operational challenge when scaling governance in the in light in particular yeah to be honest uh I think that the the biggest challenge when the Dow scaling is to build processes uh which is actually we are kind of incredible in lighted out as a contributors I think so really like we have strong process how to uh how to make governance safe how to uh have how

to hold all those governance flow safety how to checking check that everything proposed on chain is safe is like not malicious uh but same time it's really challenging to make it open to make it understandable for everyone and to make it easy to go deep and just uh uh not just checking bites because you know that this need to be equal to this but understanding what's happening and this is probably future challenge but first step always building the processes which is also T and take a lot of resources and talking about these

processes that are important Eugene what do you think are most of the things out there that you would say um it's it's effective talking about functional governance yeah I mean I I have to 100% agree with what Jen just said and kind of focusing on that operational perspective and I mean you know scroll down we're kind of very open about the fact that we're taking a uh Progressive decentralization approach you know we're not necessarily opening up everything day one and more than happy to have a theoretical or philosophical discussion on decentralization later um but I think in reality like why this approach is needed is because you need someone to really focus on operations or put a

different way you need someone to do the Dirty Work and the boring work and the thing that no one really wants to do unless it's their job to do that and they might get fired if they don't right and like I'm not doing these things because of the fear of getting fired uh I'm doing it because I love it and it's really exciting but nonetheless right it's my full-time job to work on making sure that the Dow is as functional as can be in the approach that we're taking right like Dow is in decentralized community there's no one siiz fits-all answer there isn't the right way to Dow there isn't the right way to decentralize there isn't the right way to build a community there's a lot of wrong things you can do but there isn't a singular approach that you could take and it's guaranteed that everything will

work well right people are messy life is messy Etc so when you take this kind of operational perspective as your primary focus day one or as one of the primary focuses I think it makes it a lot easier to empower people to be able to contribute right if I tell you hey go do stuff your first question is probably going to be what stuff right what do you actually want me to do and I feel like the danger of starting an overly decentralized environments is effectively you tell potentially millions of people in the world I mean it would be great if that many people actually care about governance you're probably telling a few hundred or a few thousand people in the world that like go do stuff and like make sure it works right and that's just not fair to people right like if day one you show up as an

intern in their a company at any company and they're like go be the CEO you're probably not going to be ready for that but you need like there's a reason like we learned skill acquisition Talent acquisition process creation so yeah long-winded way of saying I I really think that operational excellence is kind of the main role of Foundations and if you are okay with this Progressive decentralization approach that's kind of the primary outcome you want and when we think about decentralization and Foundation role another topic that is interesting is security right so for example Marlin you guys are building like the moral uh da now yeah and uh we're talking about this no no no no um operational struggle right the foundation in the first place

is running out what do you think about security and what is like the first approach that you think about that right uh so I'd say that uh the approach that we have on the Dow is like U quite uh similar to the the approach that we have at the protocol level which is about like um in fact the the best process are the one that you don't need to implement in the sense like if you have like something that is very simple very scoped or uh where you will try to limit as much as possible what the governance needs to do to make it uh work then it's like the best approach uh we think like the the the least that the Dow needs to do uh to make the the to grow the moro

ecosystem the better and um so if you take the the the mor for protocol like it's fully mutable you can't upgrade it the the Dow can just uh Whit list new interest rate model switch the fee but that's it and the Dow cannot like do new stuff uh new maybe risky uh things like uh if you upgrade something something maybe you can break some Integrations uh maybe you can introduce like a CR critical uh vulnerability and we think think that we should take the same minimalistic mindset also to the Dow not only to the at the protocol level and this will reduce like a lot like the the the

attacks your face uh if if there's a governance attack like it can't affect the the protocol um you yeah uh reduce the likelihood of being hacked so this is the perspective or our uh panelist but we love to listen what is your like feedback here we talked about operational right as an important part of the Dows and also about security and how can you limit this in in a in a way that delegates don't don't have to think about all of the details so please raise your hand if you think the security approach is something where you were agree great it's it's it's democracy we're here to choose right great raise

your hand if you think found foundations should play this operational role in the first place good we're good great let's continue it's it's democracy great so let's talk about delegates role now and I would love to ask Jin should we have delegates in the future who are we here um like d uh it depends actually I I really agree with Anthony H told that each down need to have its own approach and that's like true for delegates also some Dow will have delegates some Dow

will have token holders involved some Dow will have something else which is not invented yet probably um but yeah I think that if we look I don't know three years perspective for Lia this is the way to to operate lighted out will have delegate great thank you so much and elene who should be responsible for selecting delegates as for example scroll was like trying to invite new um folks in the system and how do you ambition that part of the yeah I mean I think it's a challenge in general you

obviously want to keep the process open anyone who is willing to be active in the community you want to give them that opportunity at the same time a lot of really smart people who want to be part of it are just busy and might not realize your documents or deadlines or on top of every little detail because they might be looking at 20 other Dows or something so uh I think it needs to be both uh kind of inbound and outbound right folks who come to the Dow everyone is welcome but you know I think a lot of dows have versions of like verified or highlighted or whatever name to like here's a smaller subset of delegates that we strongly encourage you to delegate to um you know if someone's coming in that's like totally full and on and has no reputation or anything or you go on

their Twitter and it's just airdrop farming you know like do you want to promote them being the top delegate that might be a little scary um but at the same time I think you need to be intentional right like do you just want a bunch of you know white Americans or Europeans coming in and that's like the extent of your Global Community that's also probably bad so you might need to do some intentional Outreach to make sure that you have Global representation that's actually closer to being reflective of the global population if you're doing like these core protocols that are meant to be open and accessible to everyone right if you're doing like a super Niche defi protocol where at most a thousand people in the world care that you exist um then yeah you could have a different mindset but especially if you're building like L1 l2s like

something that's meant to be flavors of a world computer upon which anyone can build uh I think you want to be intentional in that Outreach too and if we think about out of the delegates let's talk about the roles uh Marilyn what do you think about the RO a delegate should be like just focusing on voting or focusing on a particular role what what what's your approach around that right um that's a good question I guess like if you want to follow so it depends on on Dows uh Some Ds are like there's like an activity that uh forces you like to be basically full-time on on on the job like to be sure that you have the whole context on like uh on every

decision that are made uh we think that again like uh if you take a minimalistic approach like we'll try to um uh to have the least number of like prop proposal as much as possible so uh we should have like delegates that have like time to do something else hopefully uh but uh we deeply think that delegat should be at least stakeholders uh and that are impacted by the protocol and like not just like R random person that are just like oh I like governance so I will spend like my time here um for for the first batch of delegates uh for instance like we've co uh delegates among like uh

every stakeholders which are like um Power users um we have like Builders so people just like okay random people that have built like some cool stuff on top of morel like a front end uh something to to leverage or like true product on top of Moro so there are direct affected by the the mor for growth and its Network and also like Risk creators that are directly like um participating and the the growth of the the network and those like uh and investors as well so we have like those four key stake uh type of uh uh stakeholders um that will be part uh part of the the first batch of delegates and I we think that this is

a good approach like to to recharge because they they already have the context on what's happening at the protocol level and what uh what's happening in the Forum because they are directly affected by it great so it's now turn of the delegates um or the audience right what do you think about this approach of reach out this first batch of delegates raise your hand if you agree with it nice and um I have another one and it's basically do you agree that one delegate can be part of seven different Dows raise your hand if you agree with it

interesting and should be delegates just focusing on votings or also being part of different uh groups such as cils or or or so on raise your hand if you agree with delegates just focusing on voting I'm completely disagree what even that means focusing on vot say delegates need to be involved in the building and like like sorry I'm just we just have this conversation actually in HD last week which is yeah I need to continue with the with the topic but it was basically uh there's a lot of um some organizations that have delegates involved in different areas right so what does it mean is that okay as you

guys mentioned there's not just one answer lot of things wrong but we don't have like a just clear way of tackle my last topic for today proposed by you guys it's about incentive and I want to have an open question here what do you have or what do you think about incentive related to delegates should delegates be compensated uh or how is like your approach around that gen yes I do think that delegates need to be compensated uh and like we said the like right now we're testing the first iteration of the lighted Dow delegate framework and we started with the proposal to make the delegation open on in the one hand

and the uh have delegates incentivization program because I believe uh if you able to uh engage a lot of token holders into governance via your work you need to be compensated because as i s the light Dow is mature the processes are simple but the context are huge and you need to understand a lot you need to analyze a lot and so I do not believe like I think the worst which may happen with the Dow governance is the delegates who are just voting because they need to vote just especially if we're talking about like the silent

agreement uh and if we want to have delegates who are involved who are uh arguing with contributors with proposal ERS we need to pay them for that work I do believe right what about yeah I mean I I agree with that um I also think there's right just in terms of like Concepts around what we're thinking right like de shifting from one token one vote to delegation and just like a democratic perspective is shifting from one person one vote on every issue to representative democracy right you elect your representatives and you want them to go represent you somewhere what's interesting is like right take that concept I live in Washington DC in the states right we have a I vote uh there locally but what if that mayor was also

the mayor of Arlington and Bethesda and like a bunch of other places right or maybe even New York and la and places that are just like very different even if in the same country um so I don't I don't have a like a theory I'm pushing but I just think it's an interesting tension point right I think the current reality of delegates I fully understand why delegates are incentivized to be in multiple places especially given that almost everyone that has a version of incentivization is experimenting so it's not a a tested and tried structure that is working well per se uh I think the oldest experiments are 9 12 months old or maybe Unis swaps first program was a little longer I'm forgetting the exact timing um oh no maker also had one yeah so there are some maybe a year or two

old um but nonetheless right there could be the version of like maybe my full-time job is being a Lio delegate or a scroll delegate or a Morpho delegate right that can actually be a future career path um and it's unclear to me if that's a good or a bad thing yet I'm just very interested in seeing like when will be the first versions of that and I think there's also an interesting risk with doing these programs of incentivization um you know we are thinking about it for the future I think it might be healthy to start off without it and then like quickly try to layer it in or experiment with it again when are those timelines these are open questions um but nonetheless like what happens if you come out the gate during a bull market and you're like oh to be competitive we're paying like top

delegates 10 15 20K USD a month and then you're like oh we can't that please do it for five you know like that's not going to be good for your delegate structure right so you also have to be cautious with like easing into it because if you overcompensate and come down that is just going to be brutal for your culture so like right if you've ever worked at a job and then you got cut in half on your salary you probably weren't thrilled so um yeah you just have to be really intentional with these experiments great and what about you Marlin yeah I I think I I I'm sharing your uh your thoughts on that uh about like we may need to incentivize them at some point uh this is a topic that we're currently discussing and like there's no clear answer I deeply think like coming

back to what I I was saying before is like if you if they already have like some incentives to V vote in the first place because uh if they uh vote and like the decision is good then it's in their interest uh that the moro ecosystem will grow the moro Network as well and because they are users integrators or part of of like uh how the protocol is working then they they have an incentive to already participate because this will directly benefit them and I think like trying to align people uh from like uh at the root is like um like starting from that is better than trying like to compensate with incentive

because maybe even incentive won't be enough or you incentive like people that are just there to grab the money and like uh and do and and maybe take a uh like be a delegate at Moro but spend their time at Lio instead or the Opposites because like Lio is paying more or I don't know it's like um so yeah I think like coming back to the the the rout is like crucial here can I just quickly plug one thing uh also through my metago and dowar hat we are starting a kind of open research group for folks who are Keen to explore delegate incentivization uh and just what does that look like right there's we just had really a couple of fun points but there still is a lack of clarity of like well

what are we compensating for is it high voting percentage is it quality of contribution what does that mean how do you structure that how do you weight different aspects of contribution so I think there's a lot of open questions I know that we're talking to a few folks who are working on like llms trained on governance forums to identify unique contribution counter points are like there's a lot of fun exploration space here um so yeah if anyone here is Keen on being part of some of these research efforts uh please come come find me and I'll L you some of that so let's start with the questions and then if anyone has any opinions around it it's open to it uh so raise your hand if you agree that delegates should be compensated yeah it's okay raise your handers uh if you think uh delegates

should be compensated in the first place as in like day one when the down exactly okay that's good yeah great so L let's continue with uh Trends or Frontiers in the Dow in this case in particular focusing on this current D that we've been like talking about Jen what do you think it's something unique in your da and Li in particular and it's going to change the way that we see D in the future no pressure yeah that's interesting yeah um all right like when I'm thinking about future I anyway thinking for lighted out I'm thinking

about the Dual governance because it's kind of biggest governance project that we are building right now and actually like the research started two or three years ago like three years ago thank you Kate uh the team helping me uh and I think this is the main future thing that uh we have in light and uh also I personally think this is the proactive thing dual governance is the um mechanics which Empower EST holders actually users of the protocol to

participate in governance they will have the possibility to vetting the ldo holders which is governance talking decisions and I think this is really proactive move and uh it's really great timing to uh have it live right now because if the Dows will evolve as the companies evolves I do not believe in 10 years it would be even possible to build and have the Dow approval for things like like that which is highly empowering users I think this is kind of main train trend for us aene uh you're in the scroll out it's been working in

these cration sessions right what is something that you're excited for the scroll dos in the future and something you would say this is going to be New Frontiers for the whole ecosystem yeah um I mean just starting with what's going on or what I'm excited for everything we just launched like two weeks ago so we are just getting things started uh so when people ask me how it's going my honest answer is I don't know like talk to me in a couple months um so I mean right this co-creation cycle is this s week co-design period where we've kind of laid La out what we see as some initial priorities pertaining to growth community and governance research and development and working with those who are interested in partaking to co-design the first proposals there right and it's also

trying to say because we've already had folks come from you know professional delegate X and be like this is the kind of you know grant program or VC strategy or whatever whatever and you know everyone has their own incentives so um one of the goals of this code design is to for me to be able to say Hey you set are all pitching something along the same lines how about instead of us voting on all seven of your proposals we just co-design one together and we try to figure out of what is the kind of the minimum viable idea that is present in all of these that the community is converging on as the foundational aspects and do it right from the perspective of say like taking a VC example just because a few people have pitched me that uh and again pitched as in like just throwing out the idea it's

not like back door voting or whatever um and my response is always just like why do we need a VC one right there are literal professional VCS we can maybe a good first step is map everyone who's investing in the scroll ecosystem maybe one of them wants to co-develop a fund with us that makes a lot more sense than having a bunch of people who've never been in a VC start a VC so I think that there's this right there's this still like Jack of all trades mentality about delegates that doesn't fully make sense to me where it's like hey I have experience over there and I'm going to pitch you something over there and it's just like on the one hand it's great that everyone can have a voice in everything it just feels like an unsustainable system though right so you have to balance this aspect of how do

you Empower people to be able to have a meaningful voice and contribution to an idea and at the same time let experts focus on the things that they know and be accountable to a wider group right I think the igen layer Foundation uh the igen foundation governance structure that they're pushing is very interesting because that like tldr version they're trying to experiment with what it means to step away from relying on voting all the time right how do we move to things like preference signaling uh and I think that's a really interesting question right this is not a unique question web 3 governance it's been asked in a lot of other domains and it's just hard so I don't think anyone's going to do it right off the bat but it's just this question of right like I'm from the us so we just had a uh you know wonderfully

peaceful and chill presidential election um and if we actually had to vote on like every policy and every little thing that the president and the executive branch and the legislative branch and the judicial right that that would just be voter fatigue on everyone and so but the current structure is too much like you effectively have like limited annual or fouryear Cycles to vote for certain politicians and so like where's the middle ground right there's things like rank Choice voting there's all these different kind of structures but I'm just very interested in playing around with like preference signaling and that that is a specific domain where we want to uh work with people building those experiments to be able to understand how can you kind of lay out what you want to see and if things match that then your vote is kind of automatically counted

and you will be notified of like hey this is how your position is going to be here you now have a chance to veto right with all the information presented to you possibly in the future with llm interfaces that you could quickly ask it questions that are grounded in the information available right just how do you make it easier for people there's too much information right like I would love to be involved in lid Dow and op and arbitrum and all these Dows it feels like a full-time job each one and I I just like I want to also see my wife and dogs and have a family and do all these other things and right so I think like the sense making the I call it like fracturing governance surface if you have like everyone vote on everything I call that like a global governance

surface those are highly unsustainable so how do you create the right fractures and like as Merlin was saying right it sounds like y'all are designing it in a way that is intentionally constrained so you could have optimal focus on certain decisions right and there could be a discussion of broaden that scope eventually but it's really good at making sure that whoever wants to vote cares about those topics right and even for us as we're getting started someone might care about growth strategies someone might care about Community somebody might care about governance we don't necessarily need everyone to care about everything I would love you to be if you have the time and energy but that seems like an unfair expectation for me to anyone who wants to be involved so it's just like this NeverEnding song and dance of like understanding who you're working with from a community who has

the energy to give you time and attention and then what are the right surfaces for them to shine nice and what about Moro what is like your approach or something unique as dual governance or preference signaling uh for the mor system we in particular right so uh we have I mean we we have like offchain governance right now we are uh preparing for the token launch uh in the the next so um so there's like a lot on the plate so um like as you said like I can't really talk about like what uh what we're going to do I I think like the the first step is like uh and the unique thing that we have at Mor is as I say like um I think

this is one of the few protocol which has been like having this token that has not been transferable and like I'm pretty sure it will have like some weird or unexpected behavior on like how uh token holders will Vote or um one example is like uh you have always Farmers uh like forming your protocol when you like give incentives um uh to bootstrap at the the very beginning of the of the launch of your protocol and those Farmers like because the the token was not transferable they could not not dump uh the the token and go into another protocol so either they just not deposited the money or they become

became like power users and they are providing feedback on the interface providing feedback on like the product Etc which is super interesting because like it creates like a created a relationship with like user that are at the beginning like mercenaries um so I think this will have like a like maybe a good impact we'll see uh talk talk to me in in a few month um but uh I think this is something uh that is super interesting and we'll like work on like pushing as much as possible users to dedicate to existing like uh the the the first uh Del delegating batch and as I say like our approach is like really um taking the time uh having a minimalistic approach uh like we did for

the protocol and I feel that like one mistake of like governance is like trying to do too fast trying to copy what others are doing because it seems cool or it seems like oh this is like the thing to do and and launching and it does not work because like it's not solving any problem or um it's just like not what is expected and yeah so I think like taking the time and like having this this um smooth and and um gradual decentralization path and like really questioning like everything that oh you should do this you should do that questioning everything every step and

like if you don't understand like what is like uh we have a value at Moro which is like just justifying everything so every decision and I think this is really important because like if you justify like every step every decision that you may make then that means like you have like strong arguments and if it's backed by strong arguments like that means like at least you understand like the mistake that you did because you can get back and say okay that that's uh but if you just like make the decision like that you can't understand like what you doing wrong and I think this is one mistake that we we'll try to to avoid interesting so we've been uh going through like different topics such as

operations or such as delegate roles what they should do or not uh potential fr tear that we're going to see in like near future or even things that we are currently working on right such as the Dual governance thing that light it's been working last three years great um but now uh now we mention all of these I would love you to ask the last question which is basically now no focus on Lio or scroll or Morpho but the whole Dow landscape uh what you what do you think are going to be some Trends last next years are in 2025 and then I'm I would love you to encourage and raise your hand and say hey I would love to mention this also such as liquid democracy if your turkey

or whatever so Jen what would you say something that you are going to see or you would love to see next year around house actually I agree with Ean like the participation issue isn't resolved yet and we will just see the different approach to resolve participation issue would it be like some optimistic governance uh actually in later we have the set of thing that might to be decided the way you explain uh or it would be talken utility researches and some results of those researches but in general I think that uh before moving

forward uh Dows need to need to resolve the situation with participation voting fatigue who will make those decision and how to keep those decisions decentralized yet yeah I think uh I guess one thing that I'm very hopeful for in the next year or so um is actually doing new things and by that I mean it feels like a lot of dows to date is recreating thousands of years of democratic innovation in a short time span but arguably not that many things have been done that aren't tried somewhere already um and usually have like failed miserably dozens or thousands of times and yet we're still doing and expecting it to work for some reason um so yeah

I'm just excited it it feels like we're getting to this point inflection point where like yes we recognize one token one vote doesn't work yes we recognize that no matter how hard we try and whatever incentive programs that we do we're still highly constrained on like percentage of actual participation and like all these other things that are just like fundamental Democratic or decentralized Community problem so I'm hopeful that we're going to start actually innovating with really new examples that have been wanted to be tested in these other domains but there just wasn't the tech for it and there is this really exciting convergence of the tech the right people to build the new things and an appetite for trying these new things that seems like 2025 through 2030 my kind of major hope for Dows is

we start doing things that other communities are going to look at and be like even if they you know we can especially if we can uh diverge the attention of or the association of like equal crypto equals FTX let's not touch this right like a lot of nor people who are not crypto people still have this very intense visceral reaction um but if people just start looking at thousand and it's like oo that's where Community is being innovated like that's where there is the frontier of how communities self-organize uh and actually accomplish goals together if we don't hit that Mark by 2030 I don't understand what we're doing here right so like what am I focused on and trying to work towards and I hope each and every person here and like we keeping each other accountable and pushing each other on is

if we are not getting to that kind of Point let's just go do other things and stop wasting each other's time to put bluntly right like let's practice these things and like take audacious risks and I'm not saying like oh you have a new experiment go put a 10 billion dollar tra no no like don't don't rush create containers run small experiments then keep scaling them but just there's nowhere else where this kind of democratic Innovation is happening at this kind of scale and I mean again I'm coming from America it's just a highly polarized uncomfortable time no matter what your views are I would love to see things emerge from Dows that get adopted in digital communities that get adopted in in certain municipalities and they're like we're we're we're a Stones throw away from it right like why aren't there participatory budgeting experiments in

Dows they happen in small governments and they go really really well yet we're not doing them yet right so we still need to finish capturing like I I think vau and the butter team was talking about like futarchy earlier right like there are these disciplines that have had decades or if not more of research in them and we are not trying them so we need to accelerate our speed of trying everything that is known so we could really push the frontier of what is not yet known and what will hopefully innovate our ability to do more together right uh tough tough questions after um those two answers um yeah you you talk about the tech I think this is a good point uh in the sense like okay let's try stuff uh but the problem is

like doing Tech and it it's coming back to I think uh it was the first question like on the operational side and the security side and when you are dealing with governance usually you are dealing with like several hundreds of millions or even billions of dollars so you can't mess up uh with the the setup um maybe at the beginning but not not not much after and and the problem is like um some experiments likees like onch like mechanism that are like not fully tested or not pro ready and it's and and you don't know all also as well like uh what

you really need but like having something that is addited like cost a lot it might cost like 100 of ofk um and it takes like maybe two three month or something that which is like slowing slowing down a lot like the I think uh the the experiment that can be done by uh by the different Dows so I think if you can if we can like streamline everything like all the operational costs all the auditing costs all like the the development cost but this is super hard like uh uh everyone is like working on like improving that but if you speed up that part that means like your uh iterating cycle is like getting faster and faster and faster and that's

like you can like do many more experiments and see like the one that are working and the one that are not not working um which is kind of some sort of like a natural selection of like what what's working and and what's not and and then like project like can pick pick like the the the the good ones and try uh themselves and see see if it's fits uh their uh their own community on or and DOW yeah just um there that I really respect the fact that uh rather than mention yeah this is going to happen uh we look back and it was like let's stop experiment as much as possible but rather go back and see what was wrong or didn't work and let's try

to fix it to continue so we have two minutes and I would love to encourage any of you guys that might have any opinion around this uh conversation and what do you think about the future of the or the next uh Trends or Frontiers at least for the next year or the next five years someone here that would love to take their mic any brave souls hello hello hey um yeah I would like to know your thoughts on uh treasure sustainability and also next to Frontier for Dows like new experiments and treasure sustainability how how to manage both yeah um I'm happy to jump in on

that I mean I think that's also just like an open area um I think there's right when it's sustainability there's also just the question of like is the goal of Any Given Dow like scroll Dow Lio Dow Moro like is our goal to be open in perpetuity or do we have like right especially for foundations and Dows like I think we also will start seeing realistic timelines and whatnot um but it seems like there's a maturation of players who are focused on like Dow treasury management and getting more into that world uh and I know from like the grant perspective there's a lot of conversation on just like grants aren't enough so like what is the actual investment landscape and so if we start doing more convertible notes or VC style then you can get money back in I have mixed opinions on that um but

nonetheless I I don't know but I figured I'd just jump in first I don't know what heall think thank you for saving us but I think it depends like the what is like treasur sustainability do we want it like wasn't behave as all other crypto behave and be volatile it's impossible um how what is like how to govern the treasury uh depends on the dowo vision on how to actually govern everything for example if we look at lighter we are trying to uh we have kind a few focuses one of security one of each security the

other is like long-term Vision that governance need to be like aifi and like there there would be no governance in the uh future uh regarding the treasury I believe that uh it really depends on the vision for laa for example we don't want to make it touchable for humans and keep it in the contract this is the most important part for governance and Treasury management right um I think Moro will be like mostly focused on like on the

treasury management because uh as I said like uh at the protocol level you can't really do much much things like um uh instead like yeah you can do the switch on the the fee uh which is quite important and like a huge decision to make uh but it will like first be uh on the treasury management and our approach again will be like very minimalistic and like uh trying to uh experiment things but with like a minimal budget so uh right now I think there's like a a proposal to do grants but it will be only with like 100k Moro which is like very small compared to like what we have seen like I think it was like arbitrum that like

um like send like a huge amount of like fund to like gaming fund or something that and like right now it's not re responding any more or something that which is a bit like uh you have like a principal agent problem here and I think like if you want to avoid it or like U big mistake is like trying like uh trying like small stuff uh small steps and and see if it works and so that like if thek or maybe more in the future it does not work then like for forget about that and let's try something else instead of like trying to pour like dozen of mins on like some something that won't work uh because it's it's not

like what works with that particular Dow and also just one last Quick thought is like the amount of money you need to spend when you're building an ecosystem in a new product is very different than when you're sustaining and just trying and not have it break uh and so like years 1 through five verse 5 through 10 verse 10 through 20 is just going to look different and you know like I know there's already Dow m&a coming up as a topic so like we might just follow corporate world in that sense so who know knows but I think if like as you find your product Market fit in staying in that your size should decrease but we have no clue what is that sustainable number right now great so we went through past possible issues present conversations and also possible future Frontiers thank

you so much for each of you that participate in the panel and thank you thank you so much each of the panelists that help us through the debate thank you and thank you for moderating let's go thank you so much guys up