The Future of Banking Is Here, Crypto Has Crossed the Rubicon, What Happens Next?

Transcript

this is a panel discussion that seems to be drawing a good crowd and no wonder why um a little bit of a Prelude to this panel is that in March we had a web three banking Symposium in Geneva um that was dedicated fully to crypto banking traditional banking coming together um and we are really really excited to replicate a mini panel of this web three banking Symposium and just another side note we are organizing this one day conference again in Lugano next march fully dedicated to crypto banking so if you enjoy this panel and if you enjoy the Geneva event we'll see you there next year I will give it up to

the president of the crypto Val Association Emy lurin uh I let her introduce her panelists and have a great conversation thank you so much Nikki hi everyone I would love to welcome our fantastic line of panel here at the page and uh we have a really exciting topic some of the pioneers of the crypto Valley are here and their representatives and we will talk about uh what What's Next after we pass the Rubicon so as um a Next Step please each of you if you would be so kind to introduce yourself and the company you represent uh today uh yeah hi Amy thanks a lot for having us my name is Andre miten I'm a

co-founder and today's CEO of Bitcoin Swiss Bitcoin Swiss for the ones who don't know it's the oldest and largest crypto financial institution uh in Switzerland we have been one of the driving forces behind the crypto Valley and generally one of the Pioneers in the global crypto ecosystem is there someone who doesn't know Bitcoin Swiss we need to talk afterwards but no hands thanks hi everyone I'm Mattias one of the co-founders and group CE of Signum we are a digital asset Bank B in group um with a full banking license in Switzerland but also active in Luxembourg Abu Dhabi Singapore and soon to be announced two further locations and we provide an all-in-one account

approach towards digital assets crypto stable coins asset token integrated into the Fiat and traditional asset world thank you Ricardo hello all I'm Ricard martinz I'm the general manager of bis and digital assets which is the crypto arm of Bison Bank bison bank is a private wealth manager Bank based in in Portugal um and it was the the first and still the only one uh in Portugal with a license to operate in in digital assets uh so we serve uh High Networth individuals uh uh and corporate accounts as well uh providing custody uh um trading and also deposits and withdraws thank you Marcus hi everyone thank you for having me here uh my name

is Marcus menel I'm Chief client officer of Amina Bank maybe not everyone actually knows us under the old name name of uh baby people know us better under the old name of C Bank uh we also like created the crypto Bank you know founded you know back in 2018 received the 2019 like my colleague from signal Bank Swiss banking and security and security Trader license from the FMA regulator uh we also operate globally you know through our hubs in Switzerland um Abu Dhabi and as well Hong Kong uh we offer Fiat and crypto services to investors crypto natives individuals individuals Cor s and institutions thank you very much last but not least Phillip yes I'm Philip mer I'm the chief

investment officer and head of Asset Management Solutions at post Finance so I'm responsible for everything that had that has to do with investments from value stream products pension Investments and our newest child digital assets and uh post finances uh system systematically important Bank of Switzerland with roughly 2.5 million uh customers 2.2 of them private um and 300,000 business uh clients so we are and actually we are owned by Swiss post

so we are uh yeah finally we are state owned but I think we are not so boring at as this looks like we are quite Innovative the last years and uh yeah introduced uh crypto trading to the public in Switzerland to 2.2 million people last February thank you so much to set the stage a bit and uh to look back uh the longest standing crypto Financial Services the pioneering financial services company in the crypto Valley's Bitcoin Swiss Andre to talk about the journey and also just to look back the past 12 months I mean we are in such a different um state of the market where

on the Journey of Bitcoin SS are we today and maybe there are people who don't know what is The Sweet Spot of um of Bitcoin Swiss if you could allude to that please uh yeah of course happy to do so so um yeah when we started around 11 years ago we had a Clear Vision to make cryptocurrencies accessible uh to the broader Mass to bring in trust and reputation in is some sort of anonymous world of of cryptocurrencies and uh I think by now mission accomplished of course not just uh because of us but because of the entire crypto industry so I think we're at a much more mature stage than we have been obviously uh back in the day so also we uh continued

to to grow in those years and uh coming out after two years of bare Market of course those were tough times uh for the whole industry but I mean yeah what doesn't kill you makes you stronger and it also actually turned to be the casee for us and now it's about really um focusing again on the opportunities uh of the bull run on providing solutions to our clients problems on uh doing Innovation as well working on new product Services Partnerships and generally on actually growing the business so it's not just growing the the business here in Switzerland but certainly also internationally I think most here are also do have an international exposure and we actually follow the same strategy so grow the business because also so we believe that the real business case or

the big growth case is still ahead of us not just for us as a firm but also for the whole industry and you touch based on Partnerships uh just uh because it's very uh timely or actual you announced yesterday your partnership with Marky bomman can you unpack this a bit what what does this uh mean yeah it it it has a couple of elements um to it so obviously there was always this debate about Bank license or not and and then again and back and forth and so on so maybe that was the the big mistake that we ever um um actually communicated that we have any kind of Ambitions in that field um but but since we now focus on other opportunities it's about Partnerships as well in the whole ecosystem working together with best-in-class Partners uh enabling each

other um when it comes to yeah collaborations and um concrete fields are in the asset management side of things so providing uh um our products to to Partners especially when it comes to our own products index C p and so on uh and actually also working together on a joint board on an Advisory Board exactly for those kind of things but of course then also beyond that uh on providing synergies on the on the native kind of offerings that both of us have yeah seems to make a lot of sense and congratulations um looking back uh to 2019 um is really when uh when Amina bank and Signum received their banking

license in your journey what do you think what what has been the key element uh for Success because um you're both very successful today in the Bull Run of 2024 but also uh the past five years Matias if you if you want to answer first sure first I would say it was learning kind of taking in on board the learnings of the years prior to 19 starting with the co-founders three out of the four co-founders have been active in various capacities in C since 2012 most will know Luca our chairman who has for example Been instrumental in setting up the ethereum foundation coming up with the legal structure of Foundations to do the iOS Etc so it was kind of taking the

learnings on board as we set out to do or thesis um uh kind of to to progress on Oris which was one future as Heritage uh not taking any shortcuts to wait until we fully regulated until we do our first transaction um good governance independent board a board that is is dominated by independent directors all these elements um foreseeing that ultimately everything will move towards regulated um industry which we are now seeing and the seats were actually swn in in 2017 when we had the idea and then working towards the license I think that has been proven to be a key success factor for us um second is the acceptance that in a very volatile market with the ups and downs the

winters the Summers that building an institution and the sustainable business business model takes time and I think now I can say we have achieved this because last year we also doubled our revenues in the crypto winter and again now we're growing so we we have started to have or different product segments for the different cycle times and then thirdly I would call it the b2c B2B flywheel I mean some start sometimes said why would you do b2c and B2B because we have now more than 20 banks that work with us um we did this because we needed both we needed to show the banks that in in their clients actually want what we offer want crypto

and the more we attracted the more interesting we became also for banks to leverage our platform that again brings trust if we work with players such as posos you create trust which then also Blends back into your direct client business and so so these would be maybe three factors I would mention much long way to go and uh no no time to rest and and be happy about where we are super I mean our key success factors you know are obviously somehow uh similar right I mean um we are proud right we have five years of experience you know with regulation Safety and Security and I think we also have the experience in all to talk and all Crypt native and I think very similar to what mattios just said you

know I think we have to trust from from our investors and I think everyone knows you know our main investor is julis Spar and I think second point you know I want to talk is maybe about the development of the crypto regulation I think this has really allowed us you know geographical expansions as I've mentioned Hong Kong and Abu Dhabi and obviously now with the mik regulation you know is ahead of us you know I think um we will expand you know further within Europe as well like UK with uh with the burn agreement right and uh last but not least you know I think we are very proud you know to be selected partner of leading Swiss private Banks and uh we working very closely with uh with them together um the more I come across and see relationship managers of

those uh private Banks they come across clients you know who have built in a very large source of wealth uh from from Crypt base and they can't they come maybe onboard them but you know we work very close with them together we can help them and um also like our crypto native clients you know which clients from the first hours they have more and more demands as well for very traditional classic Wealth Management Services such as large financing or mortgages and we work close with them together and we can refer these clients you know to them so we can give uh um 100 360 Degrees you know service to our clients so I would say these are the

three uh key factors of success so far basically you uh Matias and and U Marcus basically you cater to the same client base we can say that confidentially it's not very confidential don't worry it's okay so I um I want to say with confidence good then Ricardo welcome from Sunny Lisbon um where is hotter here or in rodk as in in rodk or in Lisbon where is where is warmer crypto is hotter here for sure crypto is definitely uh hotter here I mean um if you go to to Portugal um the the crypto banking landscape is is easy is bison we

we are we are there Alone um I think that uh uh competition is is all always healthy so I I hope that this changes uh soon I don't think it will change in the short term because of the timing now also with M coming in into place uh so no one is probably going to move a new player right now maybe within within some some months um for us the the the the landscape there is is totally different I mean for us that are in in the industry the point of no no return has already been been reached as soon as we have given this step we know that but I I I I definitely feel that in in Switzerland everybody feels that that's

that's for sure if you go to Portugal or or even our argue other places in in Europe uh that would not be the the feeling yet even if you when you go outside of of Europe even in in the US you see how things are there you know you have no Clarity even with bipartisan bills get V for from from a president so there's still a lot of uncertainty um but uh yeah definitely in Portugal um you know uh Portugal is a tech Hub it's also a tech a crypto Hub in terms of very organic development of you know associations groups that are trying to uh help also um politicians and and and trying to lobby for understanding the

value of this space um but you you'll definitely find hard time if you are trying to open an account especially if it's for your startup as soon as you say the word crypto the conversation ends there and you you you you don't even uh can cannot go further than that basically uh so we we try to of course play our part in helping and and also developing uh the ecosystem there financial services are are needed financial institutions are the the Catalyst to bring development into the The Wider economy and and and so um as much as possible of course we are there to to to fulfill that and and hopefully show the way um in in in our dear country that um there is of course a

regulated and in a positive way bring bring digital assets more uh into the industry um and we but at the same time we are a private we are a wealth management bank so living a lot on on the field of uh diversification so the goal there is is we we we are a Traditional Bank uh coming towards the digital asset space um in in in in the way of of wealth management but also serving corporates and and we also have a a very Niche sort of say characteristic in in in Portugal is that we are very International so we onboard clients from multiple parts of the world we are also a depository bank that uh for most of the the the funds in

Portugal VC funds as well things are opening up uh uh in terms of also uh regulation on on crypto funds as well uh the regulator with MAA will be will be a new one as well the the equivalent to the SEC there which is cmvm uh and so we are doing doing our our work as Matia says it's takes time it's something that takes time to build to build uh duly regulated with good standards with good practices uh it's a learning Journey we are growing uh and and analyzing and finding also our product Market fit um but but it's it's been it's been a good

journey so far a year and a half um and uh looking forward to to the next years and also to see uh the positive effect on mik but maybe we can leave that yeah we we can definitely uh dive into that um after uh I address the question to Phillip uh I would love to ask the audience for a question maybe if you have a question and I I would kindly ask you if you decide to leave please close the door very gently on that side because it's it's loud it's disturbing Philip you bank with crypto Finance one force uh of uh Switzerland and uh tell us why did you decide to to venture into digital assets and um how how has this journey been for

you yeah um actually there were three reasons why we uh we were going into this this Market first of all it was client demand demand and we know that not not just only from market research we we really measured the client demand we had outflows and actually the last four years um more than 1.1 billion Swiss Franks uh was leaving was leaving post Finance to other crypto uh Traders so I mean that was a real real important within one year 1.5 billion 1 1 one billion Swiss Franks American

billions um second we believe in in the technology technology of um the underlying digital leure technology um I mean it's amazing how how the last years uh were changing the world and what all came up like nfts tokens smart contracts Etc so um and yeah we are sure there is a lot l a lot more to come in the next years that's reason number two and third we want to be prepared for that as an organization we want to learn we want to have the skills in post Finance so

that's was that was reason number three super thank you so much someone in the audience has a pressing question please actually yes it depends it depends I mean but but actually yes we are interested in and we we opened um our offering to private clients I mean it's uh yeah it's one quarter of the Swiss population is able to open a a crypto portfolio Within in 30 seconds at post Finance it's even

more easy than than be a client in at at post Finance so we are open um you know as a as a company we are not allowed to to um to offer all uh to companies we are still not allowed to to offer loans and such things so but uh we are open to that thank you very much um Andre let let's talk a bit about what is uh on customers mind now I think Matias you also have a few points to add um we are in a very different um environment as a year ago at the last crypto valy conference uh what what is what you're seeing what is um the trend and what are

what are the rationals to invest or not to invest um first of all clients are interested again in crypto so I think that was a little bit different last year so of course now everybody believes in it and so on and has seen it it since many years last year it looked completely different coming out uh or being directly in a bare market after the whole um shutdowns of FTX and and teruna and Celsius and all of them so I think you need to separate between two camps so the ones that have been in crypto before that or like since a couple of years and the ones that are actually now interested to to go in it and um I mean the ones that have been in the crypto space they have slightly different let's say interests now but

but for the ones that actually are venturing into it uh for them trust is super important security to not do the mistakes that others have done in the past so that is extremely important and now of course it's warming up so for the ones that are interested in the in the space now is the time for sure uh the ones that have been uh already in they are already looking a little bit ahead of the curve so went to exit so are we there already I don't think so we're not there yet so I I believe that the bull market probably continues for another like 12 to to 18 months um but but of course you need to have some sort of a strategy right at what levels when when especially Bitcoin

is reaching new alltime highs and we're like uh yeah slightly before that at one times do you really want to actually exit position so hatching and all of that becomes more relevant uh to them While others are actually trying to find a good moment to to buy in so it's a little bit uh the different angles and I mean the rational why to invest I mean that's uh up to the individual investors right so if you if you still don't believe in it then yeah just don't invest I think that's the easiest and for everybody else enjoy the journey thank you Matias yeah maybe uh I think it's an interesting macro environment and people uh love to you know really read the research think it through a bit more strategically now and I think even those that do not believe

in crypto need to now have an answer let's say whereas before you could just say you know I'm not interested because it's anyway only for criminals now they need to actually think about it and maybe they still come to the realization no but for some sometimes valid reasons in their specific situation we are interesting uh part of the liquidity cycle from a monetary policy side interest rates which is a bit higher for longer but we're seeing first you know Cuts now which is getting a bit more risk on environment so that so this just an interesting interesting mix you have the US politics us us election this is on on people's mind also what is going on with regulation in the big elephant is still the US where we've in the last month

seen very positive encouraging uh signs right where you also see how how politically driven this whole situation actually is um so that's maybe a second big chunk of what people think about then thirdly it's about how to holistically integrate crypto in portfolio people are getting much more sophisticated there's CFOs that actually thinking through how can I add crypto holistically into an overall portfolio and what are the tools The Leverage Etc we've developed tools for this specifically um as an example and then one interesting point point I found is that particularly among the larger clients they start thinking about diversification also from a regional and booking Center standpoint much more than

they used to so they want to have part of their asset in the US part in Europe part in Asia different um booking centers sometimes different custodian as well so I think a general professionalization of the industry which is very positive thank you so much I can also attest that I mean we definitely feel that uh clients especially by being a bank that you know is is a lot exposed to the international uh uh Market we we definitely feel uh clients diversifying also into geographies uh but especially if they are in political instable uh uh uh countries and looking into Europe as of course an attractive place a safe place to at least have plan b or or or

plan C that and with M coming uh or you wanted to add something no sorry I mean actually I can only confirm what my colleagues actually said before so we also see you know um lot more demand now for sfic more sfic instruments you know not just buy and hold you know in particular on the derivative side now um we see large interests you know coming along and we can see actually how that market also grow or the grew in in the last couple of months uh also like uh from external Asset Management side you know we see very interest you know for active manage certificate and last but not least you know currently the amount of loans we getting actually asked you know is um sometimes um more than

basically our capability so we we are in in in intensive talks with various Banks about loan syndicates that's uh something can most of the interest you know currently we do see from our client p so yes loan syndicates uh they want to buy more cryptos or actually want to diversify in other asset claes thank you very much uh Ricardo we talked um lengthy about Mika and um you expressed that yeah this is going to be a lot of or bring a lot of change what else will it bring besides the certainty yeah I I I think that uh it's it's a very positive thing for for us here in in in Europe uh even looking into uh our

dear country in Portugal uh and others as well it will um uh maybe going going again to to to your point mat is that right now any any financial institution especially banks will start to feel more the healthy pressure to justify why they don't operate in this field which can be a valid answer can be a strategic answer but more and more and especially with M cannot be an answer of the non-regulation perspective so it's a it's a very uh uh um uh comprehensive uh uh regulation that that is coming uh I I would say that Europe will be on on the on the spotlight of that always be a reference for that uh for for the coming

years um it will help uh of course in this sense bringing a little bit more clarity because many times when uh it's difficult to for companies to innovate and to be fully regulated and have access to to banking services and Etc most of the time is about education so having MAA will force uh in my view a lot of the the the entities that have been dismissing this this space to uh really educating themselves because most of the times and and in in most of the countries in my view um what typically these institutions feel is that by rejecting this this space they are protecting their their their their

corporation uh from risk is seen as as a as a non-risk appetite but but actually it's not it needs to start to be something that is either strategic or with some sort of other explanation not necessarily just the risk AV verion because saying no is the easy answer and and and and many times probably they're taking more Risk by by saying no than not starting to work right now in in some shape perform so I think that's what it will bring uh that will be very very important and is abl lishing you know a common playing field uh and and clear rules as well on who owns what in Portugal and in other countries who still needs to be transposed into local laws we already know some things we

already know that uh the cmvm the the the which is the SEC there uh will will will have the most of the the role in in in MAA and it's positive because they they they have a view of innovation of bringing Innovation into the market and developing the the the the business uh in in the country so uh I think that's very very positive in my view let's see about the execution as well so very re within some weeks we'll start to see something coming up for the authorized stable coins I think that will be very important and maybe who knows stable coins itself in in in Europe might be a vehicle also to to more to more adoption and in the space yeah absolutely someone

else wants to add to the point of ma if if there is a strong Viewpoint I think we all agree with uh with your um statement Ricardo so with ma more competition is going to come into the place or the space and I'm curious that uh how are you keeping up with the with the competition uh Phillip as well as Marcus so what are the the key successes and challenges um yeah po Finance actually it's not not that easy for a large company or a large Bank to to keep up with that but you you have to have the right the right people

and actually when we started I mean the the most important thing was was to educate uh the employees convinc the board obviously also the board yeah that was uh hard that's what that was hard but actually that was real uh real important for for success and that helps also now we have um we have the right the right people so that you can keep up you you but you also have to go um to conferences like this and and educate yourself and everything time TVC yeah but phip that's right but that's really important and yeah

um yeah but but competition keeps keeps us up running and so uh competition is is is good for us I think there is a a lot of space for for even for more out of the world actually we helped to I think to bring crypto to the public and that helps us all yeah you're advancing the ecosystem for sure yeah we very glad actually post finances in the business um uh but it was to help us you know to educate as you said you know and actually make it more retail uh investment actually class I mean on our side obviously the Inception since Inception of am Mina

Bank you know we now focus is on institutional Prof professional clients but I believe as well every new competitor you know actually helps us you know in acceptance of the of the asset CLA and as well and know we we benefit from our B2B approach we do have uh basically also can give access in know to um to retail actually investors the challenge we do see on our side is is is clearly on the very fast you know International grow um uh these kind of like geographical expansions which we have done and potentially also like future expansion within within you within EU as well like uh Mika and as well in the UK with the burn agreement

that's that's what I see actually as a big challenge you know going forward thank you very much what do you guys think of uh no one is here from Robin Hood or um bitam but what do you think of of the acquisition I mean how smart this is of Robin Hood to shop licenses in Europe uh with the acquisition of bitstamp um is there is there an opinion on that I think it's a clever move um so bit stamp was one of the earliest exchanges in Europe they were the one of the first ones that actually were Pro regulation and started to implement it so of course they also had a lot of changes internally and so on but uh yeah I mean there will be a lot of

competition for all of us uh the moment that mikar goes live for sure and uh I think it's it's a clever move from them absolutely the right target yeah thank you I would add exactly that I think one one is the timing I mean the timing probably was a coincidence but you know almost like just one month after having a Wells notice from the SEC you know announcing an acquisition outside of the US says it all but maybe again going to the point uh uh Europe only becomes more attractive by uh having a complete contrast with what's happening o over the the us at least from our perspective I don't know of course details I think we all have access to the same information but again builds attractiveness for investment into into

this geography right and that's I think that's another example of that thank you so much um I don't know how many of you attended the Bitcoin panel earlier in the morning and um my question to you all all of you here is that would satosi would have wanted to have Bitcoin ETF Bitcoin AMC Bitcoin ETP um it's it's it's maybe a a clear no uh however uh yeah none none of you here is uh echoing the not your keys not your coins narrative um so the question is is what what would Satoshi say that we have all these uh products uh being built on uh digital

assets let's ask him no yeah let me go I I guess you would be humbled um I mean developing some sort of a digital currency a digital uh money that is decentralized I mean you can probably count one and one together that uh at one point there will be Beyond spot trading also like options derivatives uh probably structure products bankable products so I think that part of the journey is uh yeah was probably anticipated since he knew a lot about financial system centralized ones else you cannot basically build a decentralized one so I think that is not really big of big of a surprise but what he probably wouldn't be too happy about is the centralization uh element around

um certain products like the ETFs now in the in the US with um coinbase being the main Central counterparty and Central risk to that perspective as well so I think there is two sides of the chain um un actually fortunately we all do not know him her or them right otherwise Bitcoin probably would not be what what it is so so my perspective would be looking at his at his her or their white paper um it is probably not uh what was anticipated or wanted but just at first sight I think now seeing what is happening with all this education millions or hundreds of millions of people having potential access to the technology via simply an

an ETF first then wanting to learn more about it and then ultimately I'm sure also learning about the benefits of self- custody or becoming a bit more critical about centralization Etc so I think then over time uh it will drive the adoption so much that maybe after a second thought um Satoshi would also feel it's maybe not such a bad thing you would be convinced actually if you say not not your key is not your coin that's not the target group of of post Finance I mean but there are a lot not but not everyone is is a techno sayy and we opened it to a to a larger population with that there are a lot of

people they are just afraid to keep their keys by itself and so so maybe it's not in the sense of satosi but it helps to to to grow crypto and it's not the same same group we address yeah let me invite him and ask come come so we got to the last question and then I will open it to the audience so what is really next on the horizon um maybe in in two three words only if we can go from left to right Andre yeah on the crypto ecosystem for sure it's the E ETF probably upcoming uh

elections have been mentioned so I think that can uh inject some more um yeah Positive Vibes and energy into the whole crypto space and increase the momentum and probably be the Catalyst for the next uh yeah bigger wave I would say we've had and we're going to have this year some very interesting token launches particularly around technological advances around scalability layer twos Etc that's one big thing to watch and secondly uh I would say real asset tokenization real world asset tokenization becoming soon really real right it was for long just uh proof of 2017 I know since 17 I've been saying the same thing also since then but now I think I see I see it's really coming great hopefully thank you

uh yes I also think that tokenization is definitely the the the name of the day uh but I think it comes in very various shapes and forms uh uh even the the simple stable coin is is the the most sucess successful example of terization but I think that we'll continue on that path I also think not so much for our business but I think when it comes to retail uh things like wallet abstraction and providing ways to on board you know not so so much so sophisticated users in the in the crypto space will probably be interesting and and will enable some interesting gaps coming in uh I also feel that scalability is is is a topic there will be a lot of projects being

launched some of them have already been launched either more in the Mod modularity Space more in the uh High put layer ones or layer twos uh layer twos on top of Bitcoin and new developments that are resurging Bitcoin uh is also very interesting and I would like to say also that if if Satoshi was was around uh probably it will be agnostic I would like I like to believe that satosi uh probably didn't like Banks but does not mean that Banks cannot change and banks are after all an entity and it's supposed Bitcoin and other blockchains are are public uh uh infrastructures so um I don't believe that Satoshi would like to place some sort of magic to prevent Banks from using a public

infrastructure so it's it's fair for all and it's there to be used and so I I also like to see more developments into Bitcoin uh and not leaving it as just a a rock standing uh that you can cannot do anything more with with it so I think that's going to also be one of the trends in the space to to to watch thank you very much I mean institutional option is actually going full speed on right and that will continue and I think you know in in in Europe in in particular maybe Switzerland a little bit to less extent you know we lacking here I think um we we we see as I've mentioned before we see increasing demands you know from all different side also from institutional players and um I think that's that's that's will

definitely stay on Focus you know for for the rest of this year obviously uh stable stable or Rising bitcoin price will actually help to basically speed up this process and and uh yes um geographical growth uh that's uh what we basically see and if Amina Bank you know um uh the most growing Port actually I think a lot of more Banks and financial institutions will join the crypto community and open uh it to to their clients um and if you ask me what's on the horizon at post Finance we are thinking about um how to integrate create crypto into our managed

assets uh products for our clients and how to um expand uh our crypto offering for example with taking and transfer and more coins to come super thank you very much is there a question uh from the audience please go ahead think is there someone who wants to take

this I would say one doesn't exclude the other um so I think both can go hand inand probably the since it all starts with understanding actually the risks um and and having some sort of solutions I think the the crypto site I mean there is already in the D5 space uh similar Solutions out there of course you need to bring volumes on them and make it somehow to a mass adoption but a lot of innovation is happening there but of course the the big beast is is in trfi so but uh but I think both can go hand in hand is there another question if not then uh I think we end it with uh with a very positive note you

said 12 or 18 months more of the bull market hopefully hopefully that holds and uh you're all excited about uh just clearer regulation and also uh just a new product uh in the pipeline I would like um all of you to put your hands together for or panel here thank you very much oh