The Exchange Product Playbook 2.0: Building the Future of Exchanges in a Regulated World

Transcript

regulated world. That's what we live in. And if we want to achieve adoption of our beloved technology, we need to find ways to regulate what we do. And we do exchange exchange or assets. And the question is who is building and how is it built the future of exchanges in this regulated world. So in the next panel which is called the exchange product playbook 2.0, zero, you're going to be here and unfold on this topic. The moderator for today for this panel is our one and only Emmy Lurens. She is still the president of the board at the Crypto Valley Association and with the second hat on

working for Talos. Please welcome on stage. [Applause] Thank you, Benedict. And uh so nice that you guys still have patience and curiosity for the next panel. This is going to be a super exciting one. I would love to ask my panelists to join me here on stage and let's sit uh in order of uh the pictures the future of crypto exchanges and building that. But uh they are also building it today making sure that the exchanges are uh just uh improving all the time. Let's go with a quick intro.

Uh thanks for introducing me Baka the president of the CVA as well as Bey at Talos and uh I would love to ask uh first the ladies Odris and then to intro yourself and say a few words about uh the exchange you represent. Thank you, Emmy, and lovely to be back. Um, and thank you for sticking around. We are the I know we are between you and the alcohol and a really nice uh lake breeze, but we'll we'll get through this. Um, I'm look after the institutional business at Bit Vavo. We are a European-based um global leading exchange. Uh, what I mean by that is we lead in terms of the largest Euro spot market share uh across um the markets.

more than 50% of that is is uh um from Bavo. We are based out in Amsterdam and uh primarily we started servicing retail clients but over the last 18 months or so we have seen incre unprecedented growth in our institutional volume. We are regulated by the Dutch central bank and also very soon with the AFM as well from a mika exchange license point of view. Cool. Hi everyone, thanks very much for sticking around. My name is Denita. Um I work for Bullish exchange and I lead the business development effort in Europe there. Uh Bullish is a regulated institutional exchange. What's uh pretty unique about it is that it's a

combination between a centralized exchange and a decentralized exchange. Uh so we have uh club and AMMs allofchain. Uh which as I mentioned is pretty unique. Um I don't think anything like that exists anywhere else. Uh so we launched it in 2021 and we are top three globally for Bitcoin spot volume. We also offer petrols and soon options as well. Uh you might a curious fact that not everyone probably knows is that in 2023 bullish acquired Coindesk um and last year we acquired also crypto compare also known as CC data. So we have a comprehensive offering between exchanges, media, conferences, data and indices as well. Thanks. Excited to be

here for the fourth time in a row. Yeah. And we have the for the four time first time this panel, right? The exchanges panel with you. No, four. No, four times. We've done this panel together four times now, including once with FTX. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah. Super. Thanks so much. Then Constantine, do you want to go ahead? Yeah, sure. Um, thanks. It's uh super good to be back. Um, my journey in digital assets started back in 2016 and back then all the hype was you know the blockchain technology and you know when at conferences like this everybody was talking about uh the blockchain technology in a very abstract sense. So I think we've come a very long way and uh yeah this panel is very much testament to um how far the industry has

come. So that's that's exciting. Uh for me coming here is a little bit like a high school reunion. And so it's very cool. You see the same people and um you know something sometimes things don't change but then there's also moments where there's rapid drastic change and um for me let me just share you know a few key key items back I think back in maybe 2020 when I was talking to a lot of um institutions banks everybody was talking about doing something but not a lot of folks were actually implementing anything and now it's very different right we're in full execution mode um it's not just press releases, everybody's shipping and it's a yeah drastically different environment. So, uh very very exciting where where we

going with this. Uh in terms of Kraken, um I think everybody in this room knows Kraken. We've been around for almost 15 years. Um we're the first uh exchange to launch Europe and yeah definitely um one of the leading exchanges in Europe. So uh I think for us um you know being back here is uh fantastic and uh you know been a great partnership. Thanks so much. Um Fred, please go ahead. Hi everyone. Uh my name is uh Fred Vulpier. Uh like many, I started in traditional finance in 2014 and late 2016, early 2017, I really started to to look at crypto starting with Ethereum and I got really really into it. So in 2021, I decided to to join Binance. So now I had

the institutional sales team for for Binance uh in Europe. Uh for the ones that don't know Binance, it was founded in 2017. There's no one who who doesn't know Bance. Well, I don't know. But the company was founded in 2017. So, uh a bit Yeah, a bit late compared to other exchanges, but it rapidly grew to become the leading exchange. Uh today, we have uh over 270 million users. We have more than 40% of market share, and we're really in that unique position uh with a very strong community. Uh so we we're able to gather a lot of feedback and and and try to you know keep uh you know stay stay ahead of the curve. Um and um yeah that's a short story. Yeah like um it's it's really cool that we have two

OG exchanges here KR and Binance but then we have here the challengers as well or or those who have a different edge and and have been building super decent and and uh reputable exchanges. Um the first question is uh or the the second is pretty much about the evolving needs of institutions. You are all serving institutions. What is what you have seen? Maybe let's do a a quick uh from left to right. Uh you you want to start Constantine? Yeah. In terms of evolving needs, I think um it's very helpful to think about segments and and subsegments because there's just so much is happening. So in my role I basically cover um in the institutional business

in EMA and what we see is um across different segments there's different needs but there's one common theme that I would say is uh infrastructure so for let's say intermediaries such as banks um they want to provide crypto services and they don't necessarily want to become a crypto exchange or you know a crypto company so what they need is uh infrastruure structure and the trusted partner. Then with others such as trading firms, they just rely on you know lots of exchanges plug directly in uh plug in directly and uh they have let's say direct um access and for them it's all about um latency and let's say optimizing the the last bit and you know the the very last mile. Um another huge

trend that we see is um in the asset allocator segment. So everything around uh bitcoin treasury or you know just in general uh treasury as such. So I think custody comes into play. uh prime comes uh plays an important part but the common theme really is infrastructure and I think everybody in these segments knows what their end clients want but they realize um that it's good to then rely on trusted partners where um they just uh rely on uh people who've been around for a very long time who have expertise and you know where there's also an element of trust since FTX was mentioned I think trust and counterparty risk are are very big and This time it's very very different right a couple years ago when

um you know FTX happened I think counterparty risk was uh perceived in a very different way and now the whole space has matured significantly and uh the approach is much more professional so that's the second theme that I see it's just this convergence of Trefy and digital assets which is uh actually fantastic to see you were nodding yeah to expand on Constantine's point I think um you touched on a bit of infrastructure and also about um the the robustness and the convergence of trapfi alongside you know more cryptonative um sort of entities. I think there's also the the theme here at when we're speaking about institutions it's about a service and this service offering comes very different from the

the first wave of crypto where we looked more towards perhaps you know um at the grassroot levels retail that was very product driven. Now when you are delivering businesses at from a service point of view an institutional level the the whole thesis becomes an operational clarity aspect. So it's becomes a it's a prerequisite it's not just a nice to have. So I think that's where a lot of the shift has happening and through the touch points that we mentioned around infrastructure or um anything to do with your operational model it brings about a lot of that robustness and the need for clarity in terms of the services that um the exchanges or the businesses want to partner with. So you know from risk

management all the way to collateral management uh you know better transparency and there's more and more of that institutional drive because if they can get that clarity it means there's better chance that we have this ability to um probably embrace the element of you know bit more of mass adoption or at least scaled um sort of scale embracement of of institutions coming into crypto. It's kind of saying um and it was sort of mentioned in um a conference I was at last month in London around the future of broking as well and around trading. It's just one aspect alone. But if we do not meet the risk managers and the regulators halfway from

a threat five perspective I think that's where we're going to miss out a lot. So we see that convergence and also the meeting of minds um as the way forward for institutional play. Yeah. Super. Thanks so much for expanding on on infrastructure uh as well as risk uh related matters. Fred, what what do you have to add? Yeah, I think most of it has has been said. I think the main topic is infrastructure reliability. Um one of the main topic after FTX was uh reducing counterparty risk. So it's still the center of the discussion.

There's many uh many ways to do it. We have crypto custodian. We have a banking trip party which caters for the more institutional players and that has been high in demand. Um and also to to share a bit more um so I've been with Binance for four years and it's you know I really saw the change when when I joined we were mainly speaking to trading teams prop traders uh individual traders and and now it really changed to you know to to speaking to you know traditional hedge funds. So they're also looking at um you know innovative tools to trade crypto uh being more capital efficient.

So we de we put a lot of effort into developing trading tools like portfolio margin and to have unified margin to trade across spot margin futures option um you know working on credit lines while you know still maintaining high security on the exchange. So it's a balance where that you know it's a fine balance to to have uh you know enabling more efficiency while you know still having a secure exchange to to trade on. Um so yeah to add on top of uh of infrastructure we you know we've had to to adapt uh for for the new wave of of traders and users on the exchange. Wow.

four years. It's it's incredible to see uh how the level of sophistication increased, right? Like uh uh yeah, when it comes to infrastructure and uh and such nuances as infrastructure, not not nuances, it's it's the sophistication uh factor. I want to say then it's a what else can you add to this? Yeah, I think you guys covered it pretty well already. I would probably um c put them in three categories. It's um innovation, efficient capital allocation and regulation. Uh in terms of innovation, clients as you mentioned always want better products. Um you know, they want to see traditional um they want to see centralized exchanges like us leveraging

the best from the DeFi space of all the innovation that's coming in there wrapped up in a regulatory manner and brought um onto the centralized exchanges. Capital allocation, you named it. um credit lines. No one really wants to park money on exchanges and have them sit there and generate nothing. So anything that's uh credit line related crossc collaterization uh cross margin it's just expected as a given and regulation as well. I think um Europe is pretty easy for us now because we just have to be regulated if um if we want to operate there. But the challenge for a lot of these clients is that there's usually especially given that we're talking about 27 plus countries. Uh often they're given very little notice

on um what they need to implement uh with respect to their their their regulators. So they expect exchanges to act as their strategic partners um you know suggest solutions that would help them whether it's you know due diligence requests or specific rollout of tools. We recently had a client who came to us and said okay this is a requirement for us um you know that this doesn't really exist in crypto it's probably something we can leverage off uh traditional finance can you u leverage your internal group resources and come up with a solution so yeah the requirements are ever growing super you touched on regulation and uh my next question is relating to regulation in Europe we've

seen a lot of uh a lot of regul regulation related did fragmentation or or all the players have to have to go through um or or potentially have to apply for a Miko. Uh how did this shape your strategy? Um Denita and maybe Ordris if you want to. Um I I would actually call it regulatory arbitrage, right? some countries give uh licenses easier um and then you know some exchanges were able to get them there and then transition them into Mika. I think it's really important to understand that you are not just given a license by the regulator. You are continuously monitored by that same

regulator. Um and I think only time will tell whether that was a successful strategy or not. Um it also simplifies things um because now everyone is just transitioning to Mika. So it does give some clarity but yeah I mean yeah regulatory arbitrage is still something that we see. I will say from BVA's point of view we always from the beginning um and the point about what Denza said about regulatory arbitrage we kept it very simple. We played with straight bats. So uh obviously we are homegrown in the in the Netherlands. So we're are very much in lock step with our Dutch regulator.

um I won't put any spoilers but you should hear some news very shortly about that but the I think the point is made that uh mika or these sort of frameworks bring about clarity and transparency but it also gives that assurance we talked a lot about you know not just the session but many of these other panels uh earlier today and yesterday around how do we uh bring forth that institutional wave or that adoption or coming in how do we get crypto to meet them or do they meet us? This I would say that the regulatory um backdrop for Europe um is is one of actually a very good way for us to be in Europe and for Europe um and for any external investors you know

wanting to are interested in Europe. It's um it gives them that assurance that there's some framework and clarity which all the participants are working you know in concert with. So I think that's actually a very positive thing. I mean uh a recent poll by us when we sort of look across the um this user base right u just people who are you know actively looking at investments whether they hold crypto or not that more than 50% of the respondents believe that digital assets or crypto is you know in in the next three years going to be a significant part of their strategy of their investment holdings whether it's an individual or from a business point of view. So that itself it lends a lot of weight and and pause to think about

what different business models are going to be transformed through that mechanism. So I would say that regulatory fragmentation um it's always going to be there but because we have the harmonized element from Mika and also from Trefire world around me and and all the related um frameworks I think we have a better shot at at moving stuff. I understand there's a lot of frustration at the policy level from a commission's point of view. um you know where you can have thousand 10 banks and nothing will be ever agreed or upon but at least from a business point of view we can go about doing our business because there is an idea or a blueprint where we have certain um ideas

and and and strategies that we can actually execute and as what Constantin said at the start that's about executing now and we are all executing we're not just talking about it or or drawing up more strategy plans um and and policies. Yeah, you guys are definitely about execution or as in all all of you here. But uh it reminded me of the founder story of BitVavo. I learned yesterday that three college kids uh created BitVo and today uh it's it's an exchange of 400 people, right? Like it's a it's a it's a nice funding story. If you if you don't know it, definitely look it up. Um Fred, you represent the VIP and institutional part of Binance. Can you share a bit like who are the clients of

VIP? What trends have you been seeing? Which markets are you expanding in? Like give us some data relating to Sure. Um so again when I when I started it was mainly traders active on the platform. So that we were referring to the VIPs uh you know the traders as VIPs. Uh but you know over the years we have you know we we put out different programs to cater for different types of of users. So you can be a trader by, you know, trading volume by asset holding on the platform. If you're um, you know, if you're an allocator or you're just looking to uh, you know, to to hold crypto uh on on Binance, you you can be a VIP if you uh, if you subscribe a lot to our earn products. So there's different ways to

become a VIP and access different levels of uh, of trading fees um, etc. Uh, and uh, and institutions. We so we differenti institution because you can be an institution while not being really active on on the platform but uh you know you have um you know bluechip names that open an account that just won't have access to liquidity or or monitor the market what it is like to to trade on Binance. So uh we also cater for for this type of users. Um in terms of uh in terms of volume trend um I can share a bit um during 2024 obviously it's been a a very very strong year for crypto in general uh for Binance as well we've seen over a 40 40 plus percent increase

in user base uh for 20 uh 2024 so we reached 250 million just over um so and 40 sorry 40% increase in 2024 uh we've seen a lot of uh active VIP users that that almost doubled uh during the year and uh we've seen also uh over 140 plus percent increase in uh in our earned products our saving products and that really shows that you know the the long-term um you know like people have um a lot of interest in crypto they're confident on leaving their assets on the platform uh and so yeah 24 was was really strong And in terms of um in

terms of institutions again it's it's it's very different now it's it's it's just in a lot more institutional players. So uh we've been using a lot banking trip party uh a lot of people want to trade with asset off exchange. So we've been working on different types of products to cater for different types of uh users. I remember when we talked you highlighted that you've seen a lot of um increase in Latin America. So when it comes to geographies then where do you see the most increase? I think demand crypto adoption is is global um but depending on the jurisdiction it has different needs uh so you mentioned Latin America uh I think there the needs is is a lot more about remittances it's also a good hedge uh against inflation in some countries

um but I wouldn't say they're active traders versus jurisdictions like Europe or or Asia so we've seen definitely global adoption but the it c there's different needs uh depending on on the continents. Thank you. Uh Constantine, you recently launched your crypto as a service and your flagship client was a neo bank in the Netherlands, Bank. Am I pronouncing it right? Bank Bunk Bunk or Bunk once only. Um can you share a bit about this and and yeah which other which other uh products enjoy the um the interest of your clients?

Yeah, let's let's zoom out a little bit. I think in terms of you have to be where the where your clients at and what they need, right? So we're talking about uh trading firms to to begin with. I think that's certainly what we were seeing as well. And then over time we realized there's uh also you know a lot of uh B2B business there's a lot of B2B T2C business and uh yeah we've been servicing fintex and banks for a very long time but um never in a let's say uh focused way like we are today where we basically enable fintex to to go to market uh with a crypto product in a couple of weeks and uh bank the the case study that you mentioned is uh fantastic because while obviously See, they care

about, you know, a trusted counterparty and security and and and all that and and liquidity for sure. It's also about um rapid deployment. And I think this is where we're really really seeing a step change. It's not it's not a you know um it's not enough to you know talk about abstract products you know to have a product road map that is drawn out when you engage with a client and you know they have a real demand they have a real product real targets to hit I think uh if you have a solution that scales um but that is also slightly flexible uh you're in a very good position so in terms what we uh offer in in a concrete uh in in concrete ways um basically a setup that allows anybody who has an app

uh to offer crypto to their clients and uh all of this in a couple of weeks. Um it's quite flexible setup where um can rely on our expertise when it comes to licensing also to custody. Obviously the the liquidity is a is a given and everything around that really has to do with what the what the client needs. Um since you were talking about let's say other products, I think it really depends on who you're talking to. And what's very useful is uh to think about the the the client universe in in different segments because everybody has very different needs. And uh you know not this from the Talos perspective. Um we also launched Kraken Prime. This is mostly for um asset allocators and

anybody who cares about uh you know um execution a lot. Um and yeah the way we look at it is uh we always have a very direct dialogue uh together with the product teams. So I think this is also a real edge that we have at the moment where Kraken is really shipping and we've really stepped up our game but it's also um let's say we're in a sweet spot of um scalable products but then at the same time you can also talk to us directly and uh the feedback has been very very positive overwhelming and um yeah in terms of let's say adoption and and what we see I think the the whole debate is also very different right it's not just let's say academic debate or you know very abstract suddenly you know the questions that you get is how fast

can we go to market? Will we make the next compliance meeting or the next board meeting? And that's really encouraging to see. Um maybe one last final remark. Um we've been talking to many internal digital assets teams at uh retail banks for a very long time and there's a lot of champions that want to do things and you know there ready. They have been ready for a long time. But now it's also other teams within these retail banks that come knocking and you know they go then to these um uh digital asset teams and say well I think it's time. So even internally u with you know these retail banks that maybe have longer sales cycles the debate is really really changing and that's uh yeah fantastic to see super because we talked

a bit about trends and then also uh products in crypto as a service. I'm also curious to pick your brains that what do you guys think about we recently seen um there being acquired by Coinbase then uh Robin Hood acquired uh bit stamp like the market structure changes like do you have anything to add to this or thoughts someone wants to I think I think some consolidation is much needed and long awaited right we definitely not don't need to have how many are there now 540 exchanges out there and every day you hear new news of nuance coming in. If you look at the market, it actually hasn't grown that much. Um,

okay, there's been speed bumps with FDX and, you know, macro and and political turmoils and whatnot, but I think some consolidation was just much needed. I think also it it's high time due because it's um people are starting to shift and think about actually what is it? What's my business? Um a lot of times if you can't explain your business in 30 seconds I always call it elevator pitch then I think we've got a problem because if I know in the early days a lot of things were shifting but there's still things or people just sticking their finger on the end figure out a rule or a policy but things are lot more firmer in place there's much more clarity and there's enough uh at an aggregate level of people moving in the same direction

so the need for consolidation is very much uh very much higher. I highly do partly because I think the market's over stuffed with just enough product. It's a what differentiates you from another offerer comes very much and at a macro level now around how resilient and how it's not about know too large therefore you're not going to fail. It's about even if you're large at scale, what does it mean to be adding continuing as adding value to that uh counterparty be it a trading firm or a very big uh institutional uh hallowed name or an individual at a retail level right be the consumer end is also uh crying out for for that sort of calmness and

simplicity. So um I very much welcome it and hopefully it means that you know maybe down to 20 max because really yeah I don't think the world is the world is big but it's also very small. I um sorry to borrow anyone x HSBC right always think about we think globally but act locally because that's exactly what how you know each of us in our remitt and our regions try to thrive in in in a global setting. But how do you stay relevant? It's because you are competing uh with the niche in the areas that you're good at. Um and it's okay to be one-stop shop, but then you better be very good at being a one-stop shop for

every aspect of that business. Otherwise, it's a it's a waste of capital deployment. Yeah. Yeah. I think especially tread for um players were actually waiting for regulatory clarity and I think um a lot of people were ready to go and I think you see the uptick with first M&A but then also partnership agreement signed is definitely um a healthy sign and um you hear beo behind closed doors that um if it weren't for let's say regulatory ambiguity then yeah we'd have seen a lot more so now that we're moving in the right direction um I think there's going to be a lot more consolidation I think it's al gone past mus and partnership agreements. It's literally M&As, right?

You know, where the check is is produced because that's where the rubber meets the road because that's how you deploy capital and let the business grow even further. Yeah. I also think the Robin Hood acquisition put Europe on on back on the map, right? It showed to the world how important it is as a region. They also acquired them because of their Asian licenses and in Coinbase and Derbit's case, um it was just the importance of market dominance. Um it's interesting now how the market structure is going to change on the option side. Um so yeah we bullish is launching options later this year. So you know it's going to get even more interesting about innovation. When it comes to bullish what innovation what what

product innovation are you guys doing? But seems like options is the the most recent. Yeah, I mean we started off thinking okay what is it that we can bring into transface and automated market makers um or thought of as this really just deep deterministic liquidity. Now what we're seeing is that uh we have a new service called liquidity as a service. So we basically offer automated market making opt um market making liquidity to token projects in stable coins. So that's another way to innovate, right? It's still market making, but it's pure code.

Um deterministic liquidity. So we're always looking for new ways to create new products um to offer to our clients. And yeah, I think that's the the most exciting thing about crypto, right? Everyone's trying to do that. Yeah. Plus the most exciting thing about crypto to me is also that you can create products which don't exist in TradeFi with the help of DeFi, for instance. Uh and uh and yeah, is there anything you would like to add when it comes to innovation, Fred? Yeah, I'm just come back on on consolidation. I I agree. Um now it's it's still a new a new field. So it's normal to have you know so many different uh venues to to trade on so many different projects uh consolidation is needed but uh the whole concept of uh you know of blockchain and crypto is not

to have liquidity concentrated uh somewhere as well. So I think it's also important to keep that in mind where you know dairy beat has you know probably 90% of of options traders trade on der uh is that good is that bad you know I'm not sure it's it's healthy at least uh there's other concentration you know when you look at uh Mike Sailor having so much uh bitcoin is it is it good is it bad it really sounds like you know heavy concentration so I agree uh consolidation is is definitely needed to you know to have you know the right options uh to trade Um, but let's not forget, you know, the whole concept of of blockchain and, you know, decentralization and and not having, you know, a central point of uh of liquidity. By the way, can we just

give Fred an applause that we on this panel and probably this this entire um day um I'm happy that on the panel Michael Sailor's name came up sooner than Trump's name. So, thanks for that. I could have. I could have. But but yeah, overall throughout the day, I don't I can't recollect um hearing the T word so much. So that that's good. Um what's the T word? Tesla. Yeah, sure. That's Tesla. Um nice. We have five more minutes. So maybe we can navigate into into the closing question or uh Yeah, the closing question. I think that's that's a good one. Uh and uh that's relating to the to the future. So how did the future of um

or the exchanges of the future are going to look like in three five years? Of course we are in crypto. It's really hard to say but uh but what are your aspirations or what what do you think which direction are we going um from left to right Constantine? I mean in a fast evolving space like this it's going to be very hard to predict the f future. So I could be completely off. Um the the one thing that I would say is um rather than making predictions about tech, I think it's definitely about a lot of it is about trust. I think um being a trusted resource is becoming more and more important.

Understanding clients needs for sure and then on top of that something that we call uh being productively paranoid. So it's just this security ethos in you know everything that we do and how how we see the world and um this then yeah shapes your strategy and I think in terms of what's happening sure there's so many themes and I think for a lot of people it's hard to um even even keep up but uh certain trends that we see for example crypto as a service that you know suddenly you know this first uh nobody and you know slowly and then suddenly all the fintex and retail banks are moving into the space um you the uh certain consolidation for for trading firms as well. I think there's also just

a lot of product innovation happening and I think if you then were to apply this to all client segments uh you see at the end of the day it's just uh tech innovation and uh for me the biggest trend is the convergence of of trade uh with crypto. Um so yeah maybe to you know just sum it up and say it in one word I think um all the players that have been around for such a long time um sure there is there's good reasons for that but then at the same time now the the the you know playing field is also very different in a sense that suddenly you know have new teams uh deploying very fast and there's so much change happening which is fantastic. So um it's

going to be very hard for us to predict the future but I think in you know in these terms uh I think trust and making uh sure you meet the clients where they are is the most important thing. Thank you or expanding on the trust point. So I think in order to build a a a marketplace where people want to come and trade on your platform that it's all about the compliant uh in a reliable and trustworthy uh you know venue or a central place where people want to meet and that that can range from individuals retail all the way up to very large scale institutions. So on that point and note on top of the consolidation which bound to happen in any business space because of M&A um I think there'll be

sitting alongside what we would have considered traditional business models that run ex you know the idea of exchange that we consider normally know centralized exchange you will have newer type of um firms fintechish style you know the likes of the revolutes of the world running alongside and running at scale as well uh with with building or servicing a exchange or marketplace that allows for the exchange of digital assets and if I can be bold enough to say like from a front end point of view or trading I think we see that actually the process of uh crypto digitization is a process rather than seeing it as

another asset class on top of your you know of your cash, equities, derivatives, FX and you know it's like a and becomes part of the ecosystem where because of this tokenization that's going to happen throughout the the all the threads it becomes part of a process becomes procedural operational rather than it being also seen as a a new asset class but then at the back end so the back engine room is equally important when you're talking about exchange business or intersectional transactions.

I say that's where stables will have a lot of of of focus because that's the facilitator of the transfer of collateral and and credit from institutional point of view. So they may not get the that that pretty you know glamour of the day but they also have their use case um in in that backdrop. So tokenization some far far better acceleration use of um some concept of the stable. Super great. Thank you Fred. Uh conscious of time I'll make it quick. Uh but yeah and in terms of infrastructure in the future uh you know a lot of the conversation were you know is you know whether centralized infrastructure or decentralized infrastructure would

prevail. At the end of the day I don't think it's uh you know it's a zero sum game and they they're really here to coexist uh in the future. Um it's about giving optionality uh to the users. Uh and so as a centralized exchange, Binance, we want to to adapt to that and giving that option for users to uh you know to to access uh crypto in a you know in an easy compliant secure way and being the gateway to you know to access uh DeFi or other decentralized uh decentralized infrastructure. So I think uh yeah it's it's here to coexist and uh and I'm sure I'm sure that's the way it's it's going to go forward. Cheers to that. I I really hope you're right. Then it's I'm going to be super quick. I agree with you. I actually think uh

simplification as well. We need to make the UI more accessible because we're talking to the young generation, right? I don't know if any of you here have kids, but they all have ADD. Needs to be like quick and simple so they can engage otherwise they just move on to the next cool thing. So I'd say in three words, consolidation regulation innovation. Yeah. So cool. Thanks so much. I got the memo that uh Pascal is here. uh for the closing uh closing uh conversation or closing um presentation. So, thanks for uh for the input. Thanks for making the last question quick and uh yeah, so nice. Thank you. Please big give a big round of applause to Denisa, Fred,

Audric, and Constantine. Thank you guys. [Applause]